AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Home Theater and Video => Topic started by: witchdoctor on 30 Apr 2017, 01:10 am
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Don't get me wrong, two channel is fine for a desktop but for the main listening room it is WAY too expensive compared to immersive audio. Why do you see six figure systems on display at Axpona or these other shows? Because that what it costs to make 2 channel suck less. If your idea of audio fun is gluing your ass to the sweet spot and pretending it doesn't suck just move around the room a little to see what I mean.
Do me a favor, buy 10 decent book shelf speakers and a sub and get yourself a Marantz or Denon receiver, get the Auro 3D upgrade and just leave it on. You can thank me later while you move around the room and it sounds great everywhere and an orchestra sounds like an orchestra not a facsimile.
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How to setup auro 3D
https://youtu.be/N4piXwfhnFI
The Marantz 7010 receiver and the Auro 3D upgrade is $200 additional-
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B014MWT9YY/ref=dp_olp_all_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=all
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In my experience, the 'sweet spot' is more constricted in multichannel, not less.
I'd rather have two great speakers than eight sh!tty ones, which is the tradeoff you have to make at a reasonable price point (and unless your room is YUUUUUGE.).
As for why you see megabuck audio systems almost exclusively at the shows now, it's because it's less work to sell ten $60K systems than 100 $6K systems. It's also why I may have attended my last audio show.
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I was a multi-channel guy for many years because I could never get 2 channel to image right in my less than ideal rooms. But I had heard two channel image beautiful at my girlfriends place however the speakers were not set up conventional, it was just the way the sound reflected off the walls and I happen to be sitting in the sweat spot.
I think in a lot of rooms you would be hard pressed to get two channel to image properly and multi-channel is the way to get that immersive sound.
In the last four years I've been using 4 channel stereo because I purchased speakers that can image properly (phantom image) in an unconventional setup. The sound is more immersive than my previous multi-channel set up.
So IMO if you can't get 2 channel to image properly usually due to room dimensions than multi-channel is the solution but that can be problematic too because of room dimensions.
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A controlled directivity CD design speaker might also help.
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It is all depend on your listening reference and the material that you listen to. I agree that I enjoy multi channel when I listen to blu ray concert and movie but IMO, when it comes to 2 channel music, nothing can beat a properly set up 2 channel system.
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Don't get me wrong, two channel is fine for a desktop but for the main listening room it is WAY too expensive compared to immersive audio. Why do you see six figure systems on display at Axpona or these other shows? Because that what it costs to make 2 channel suck less. If your idea of audio fun is gluing your ass to the sweet spot and pretending it doesn't suck just move around the room a little to see what I mean.
Do me a favor, buy 10 decent book shelf speakers and a sub and get yourself a Marantz or Denon receiver, get the Auro 3D upgrade and just leave it on. You can thank me later while you move around the room and it sounds great everywhere and an orchestra sounds like an orchestra not a facsimile.
How to setup auro 3D
https://youtu.be/N4piXwfhnFI
The Marantz 7010 receiver and the Auro 3D upgrade is $200 additional-
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B014MWT9YY/ref=dp_olp_all_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=all
I think you are kidding us or you are referring only to action blast movies not to music. Iam familiar to 5.1 systems and all they sucks with music, mainly with Classical music.
These your two posts looks merchandising imo.
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To each his own of course but I went from 5.1 back to two channel for music playback when I built my DIY hybrid ESL's and it was the right choice for me. I still prefer and kept my 5.1 setup for movies though.
The superiority of my 2-channel setup was once again confirmed in my mind when I heard a multi-channel setup of five $25K Martin Logan full range ESL's with subs at the 2013 Axpona audio show in Jax, FL. As compared to my home two channel rig, I found the imaging to be smeared and confused (mine being more precise and listenable).
I will never go back to multi-channel for music playback.
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The basic premise is true and has been known for decades, as for example, summarized here http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=9136 (http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=9136)
In the usual stereo audio presentation, a partial sound stage consisting primarily of the front elements of the sound stage is created by two channels, either sampled from several microphones set in the original sound field or more often by a mixdown of many microphones placed both in proximity to the performers and out in the hall to capture the ambience. The information presented by the two channels, in either case, is a small fraction of the information in the original sound field. Additionally, this fraction is presented to the front of the listener. The presentation does not create an envelopment experience, where one is immersed in the original sound field, as the information is not present. While some processors mimic the effect, such effects are not based on the actual venue but rather on some hypothetical model of a venue. : In holographic or auralized two-channel presentation, a presumed human head-related transfer function (HRTF) is used to create an impression of sound arising from other than the front of the listener. This works well in headphones or with interaural cancellation for one listener facing directly ahead and on the central axis between the loudspeakers. This method can, with some difficulty, produce an immersive effect for one point in the sound field, assuming that the subject maintains the proper head position, and the subject's head has an HRTF like that of the presumed functions. The ultimate form of this is, of course, binaural recording, where an actual head model is used to capture the information for one head location. : Beyond two-channel presentation, one can think of analytically capturing an original sound field to some degree of accuracy. This would require the use of many channels, perhaps placed in a sphere about the listener's head in the simplest form, requiring very high data rates (1000 to : 10 000 channels, perhaps) and creating a very high probability of influencing the sound field in the space with the microphones and the supporting mechanisms. As a result this technique is currently infeasible, and is likely to remain infeasible, for basic physical reasons as well as data-rate reasons, and actual analytic capture of the spatial aspects of a sound field in this fashion is unlikely
However, what is also true is that maybe close to 99% of recorded music is stereo. I have yet to hear a synthesized 2>mch presentation that sounded better across the front (no argument about the rears, i.e. vs none).
Guess I'll have to hear this Auro for myself, as I doubt there are any tests to support this (synthesized vs stereo).
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In my experience, the 'sweet spot' is more constricted in multichannel, not less.
I'd rather have two great speakers than eight sh!tty ones, which is the tradeoff you have to make at a reasonable price point (and unless your room is YUUUUUGE.).
As for why you see megabuck audio systems almost exclusively at the shows now, it's because it's less work to sell ten $60K systems than 100 $6K systems. It's also why I may have attended my last audio show.
Thanks for your reply. I use the Auromatic upmixer on music and movies. It can be adjusted for your taste. This adjustment is key in making the sweet spot the entire room. You can't do that with a multichannel SACD, Atmos, DTS-X or any of the other upmixers as far as I know.
http://manuals.marantz.com/SR7009/EU/EN/WBSPSYxsrykwfr.php
I don't advocate poor speakers, there are a LOT of great bookshelf speakers available. Just find a sub/sat system you like and add 4 extra surround channels and mount them high on the walls above your current L-R and Surround L-R channels. You can add a top surround on the ceiling if it fits in your space but not required.
https://rslspeakers.com/product-comparison/
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It is all depend on your listening reference and the material that you listen to. I agree that I enjoy multi channel when I listen to blu ray concert and movie but IMO, when it comes to 2 channel music, nothing can beat a properly set up 2 channel system.
What if you don't sit in the sweet spot?
I think their is a BIG difference between multichannel and immersive audio with immersive having a vertical field in addition to a horizontal one.
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Well, I'm always interested in hearing about better multichannel synthesizers.
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I think you are kidding us or you are referring only to action blast movies not to music. Iam familiar to 5.1 systems and all they sucks with music, mainly with Classical music.
These your two posts looks merchandising imo.
I have not used a 5.1 system in about 10 years or more so couldn't say. Immersive audio is the addition of a vertical sound field in addition to the horizontal sound field. This article does a pretty good job explaining the difference:
http://www.audioholics.com/audio-technologies/auro-3d-interview
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To each his own of course but I went from 5.1 back to two channel for music playback when I built my DIY hybrid ESL's and it was the right choice for me. I still prefer and kept my 5.1 setup for movies though.
The superiority of my 2-channel setup was once again confirmed in my mind when I heard a multi-channel setup of five $25K Martin Logan full range ESL's with subs at the 2013 Axpona audio show in Jax, FL. As compared to my home two channel rig, I found the imaging to be smeared and confused (mine being more precise and listenable).
I will never go back to multi-channel for music playback.
I think there is a bit of confusion about what immersive audio is and how it is different from multi-channel. Here is a pic of my rig which will better compare the two. Notice the height speakers in front.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161585)
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Here is a look at the back surrounds, notice the height channels and the speaker on the ceiling pointing down is the "voice of god" channel.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161588)
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I have not used a 5.1 system in about 10 years or more so couldn't say. Immersive audio is the addition of a vertical sound field in addition to the horizontal sound field. This article does a pretty good job explaining the difference:
http://www.audioholics.com/audio-technologies/auro-3d-interview
I suggest you try an OB two way or a plain simple direct one way fullrange.
An 10.1 receiver with 11 boxed speaker and more than 20 xovers are hard to fix even by software.
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The basic premise is true and has been known for decades, as for example, summarized here http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=9136 (http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=9136)
However, what is also true is that maybe close to 99% of recorded music is stereo. I have yet to hear a synthesized 2>mch presentation that sounded better across the front (no argument about the rears, i.e. vs none).
Guess I'll have to hear this Auro for myself, as I doubt there are any tests to support this (synthesized vs stereo).
This isn't a test but more of a review:
http://www.avsforum.com/auro-3d-music-upmix-demo-stormaudio-isp-3d-16-elite-prepro-ces-2017/
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I suggest you try an OB two way or a plain simple direct one way fullrange.
An 10.1 receiver with 11 boxed speaker and more than 20 xovers are hard to fix even by software.
Thanks, I don't have space for an OB as i use a projector screen. I do have a 2 channel desktop rig I enjoy. There is nothing that needs to be "fixed" in the main rig as far as I can tell.:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161590)
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Thanks, I don't have space for an OB as i use a projector screen. I do have a 2 channel desktop rig I enjoy. There is nothing that needs to be "fixed" in the main rig as far as I can tell.:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161590)
Maybe you already heard the term Point Source.
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The basic premise is true and has been known for decades, as for example, summarized here http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=9136 (http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=9136)
You linked to a fabulous white paper published in 2000 that states:
Beyond two-channel presentation, one can think of analytically capturing an original sound field to some degree of accuracy. This would require the use of many channels, perhaps placed in a sphere about the listener's head in the simplest form, requiring very high data rates (1000 to : 10 000 channels, perhaps) and creating a very high probability of influencing the sound field in the space with the microphones and the supporting mechanisms. As a result this technique is currently infeasible, and is likely to remain infeasible, for basic physical reasons as well as data-rate reasons, and actual analytic capture of the spatial aspects of a sound field in this fashion is unlikely.
Here we are 17 years later and what was infeasible in 2000 is feasible now and for a sensible price too!
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Maybe you already heard the term Point Source.
Do you use active or passive crossovers in your system?
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This isn't a test but more of a review:
http://www.avsforum.com/auro-3d-music-upmix-demo-stormaudio-isp-3d-16-elite-prepro-ces-2017/
Well, given that gents taste in music I will have to withhold judgement for myself (no offense to rap/electronica fans). :wink:
So even the retroactively updated Marantz still allows adjustments?
I'm interested regardless, because I currently use a HK AVR with Logic7 to synthesize surround channels of my "stereo". The front 2chs are "pure stereo". I could envision using an Auro capable processor similarly (for all rears plus front heights), unless they somehow managed to synthesize front acceptably for me. Guess we'll see.
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I think there is a bit of confusion about what immersive audio is and how it is different from multi-channel.
I read (perhaps not carefully enough) the audioholics interview and am still not all that clear on the difference, other than that perhaps immersive is the goal, multichannel is the delivery mechanism, and somehow there are practical consequences based on how the sound is originally recorded. Regardless, your setup is like this diagram, where "T" is the "Voice of God" speaker?
(http://www.audioholics.com/audio-technologies/auro-3d-interview/Auro11.1.jpg/image)
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I have not used a 5.1 system in about 10 years or more so couldn't say. Immersive audio is the addition of a vertical sound field in addition to the horizontal sound field. This article does a pretty good job explaining the difference:
IMO imersive audio can also be achieved by exciting the room by cranking up the volume. Typically I listen at 95 to 100 decibels C weighted, Nearfield listening. However I have rafters in my room so like there is lots of reflections going on to create the immersion effect.
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Well, given that gents taste in music I will have to withhold judgement for myself (no offense to rap/electronica fans). :wink:
So even the retroactively updated Marantz still allows adjustments?
I'm interested regardless, because I currently use a HK AVR with Logic7 to synthesize surround channels of my "stereo". The front 2chs are "pure stereo". I could envision using an Auro capable processor similarly (for all rears plus front heights), unless they somehow managed to synthesize front acceptably for me. Guess we'll see.
I am a huge fan of HK products. That being said the Auromatic upmixer is completely adjustable by you for your taste so you dial it in for your room and preference. How hard would it be to add height channels in your rig? All Auro does is add an option, just like Logic 7. It is there to use if you want. You can still listen in 2 channel by pushing a button.
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IMO imersive audio can also be achieved by exciting the room by cranking up the volume. Typically I listen at 95 to 100 decibels C weighted, Nearfield listening. However I have rafters in my room so like there is lots of reflections going on to create the immersion effect.
I love playing concert videos from www.qello.com like that but with auro engaged. I just played the Clapton/Winwood reunion at MSG like that or Queen live at Wembley. It is about as close as you can get to being there.
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I read (perhaps not carefully enough) the audioholics interview and am still not all that clear on the difference, other than that perhaps immersive is the goal, multichannel is the delivery mechanism, and somehow there are practical consequences based on how the sound is originally recorded. Regardless, your setup is like this diagram, where "T" is the "Voice of God" speaker?
VOG is the white speaker pointing down at the sofa. You get that there is a vertical soundfield right? That the soundstage is now up and down in addition to left and right, front and back? It is a really big difference in my space.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161592)
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You get that there is a vertical soundfield right? That the soundstage is now up and down in addition to left and right, front and back?
Um, yes I got that. I'm just asking if your setup is as depicted in the diagram.
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Um, yes I got that. I'm just asking if your setup is as depicted in the diagram.
Yes, you can check the pics I posted. I have some additional speakers not used in the auro format. I have two wide channels and two rear surround channels I use occasionally with other formats. One speaker in the Auro diagram I don't use is a height center channel, i just use one.
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I'd never get that by my wife, but it is very interesting thinking about it.
i'm guessing you have a sub array as well?
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What if you don't sit in the sweet spot?
I think their is a BIG difference between multichannel and immersive audio with immersive having a vertical field in addition to a horizontal one.
Sweet spot!!! Yeah, I build my stereo system for myself. I seat in the same seat and same position most of the time when listen to my music. The chair is belong to the King only :)I think most of us do that too. (Who care if my spouse, friend doesnot get the sweet spot) When I wander around the house, i don't care about the image, clarity.... etc ...
Immersive sound!!! Imo, there will always be a trade off. You want clarity, focus....you got to stick with simpler set up. If you want additional vertical sound field then ESL or Magnepan will do the trick just fine. Adding more speaker will create more problem like timing which is hard to deal with.
Being say that I like Auro 3d for what it does and it sounds excellent with the right application. But at the end of the day, when all lights turned off, my 2 channel audio system would come alive. (Too sad, I haven't had much listening time lately)
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I'd never get that by my wife, but it is very interesting thinking about it.
i'm guessing you have a sub array as well?
Yes, sub is Sunfire TSEQ 10.
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Sweet spot!!! Yeah, I build my stereo system for myself. I seat in the same seat and same position most of the time when listen to my music. The chair is belong to the King only :)I think most of us do that too. (Who care if my spouse, friend doesnot get the sweet spot) When I wander around the house, i don't care about the image, clarity.... etc ...
Immersive sound!!! Imo, there will always be a trade off. You want clarity, focus....you got to stick with simpler set up. If you want additional vertical sound field then ESL or Magnepan will do the trick just fine. Adding more speaker will create more problem like timing which is hard to deal with.
Being say that I like Auro 3d for what it does and it sounds excellent with the right application. But at the end of the day, when all lights turned off, my 2 channel audio system would come alive. (Too sad, I haven't had much listening time lately)
Adding more speakers add more choices, not problems. The fellows at Marantz built a really capable processor that lets you tweak audyssey until you get it just right for your room. However certain recordings sound better in certain formats, I agree with you there. I just like having the choice to switch and a vertical soundfield adds a beautiful immersiveness on most recordings. i have asdjusted my settings so you can't even tell which speakers are engaged, it just seems like the band is in the front of the room going at it.
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This sounds fruitless to me. Few systems even sound like the recording, let alone like the music in the recording, what good is 10 speakers that don't actually sound like the music?
Come over to my place and I'll give you a demo. I'll show you how real or not real things sound just based on the recording, no extra speakers needed to get you there.
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You heard it boys: we can all sell our two-channel systems and buy a Marantz AVR and 9 bookshelf speakers. We've been told we've been doing it all wrong.
I own a Marantz AVR with height channels for HT use. If anyone thinks that this sound better than my Tubes/Omega/Altec/Goodmans systems they are are either deaf or have no idea how good a two channel (or mono, for that matter) can sound.
I remember when I was 19 years old and the most impressive sound at the showroom was the big Polk SDA's with their ambience recovery. I grew up and realized that you can't cheat your way around good sound.
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You heard it boys: we can all sell our two-channel systems and buy a Marantz AVR and 9 bookshelf speakers. We've been told we've been doing it all wrong.
I own a Marantz AVR with height channels for HT use. If anyone thinks that this sound better than my Tubes/Omega/Altec/Goodmans systems they are are either deaf or have no idea how good a two channel (or mono, for that matter) can sound.
I remember when I was 19 years old and the most impressive sound at the showroom was the big Polk SDA's with their ambience recovery. I grew up and realized that you can't cheat your way around good sound.
Can you post pics?
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Sweet spot!!! Yeah, I build my stereo system for myself. I seat in the same seat and same position most of the time when listen to my music. The chair is belong to the King only :)
Precisely. So, what's the problem?
If I wander around doing chores I can listen to NPR or CDs on separate min-systems in the kitchen, two in the basement, one in my wife's sewing room, or in the detached garage.
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Defending 2 channel is like defending the horse and carriage. If you feel like investing in buggy whips go for it, I'll get a Porsche (with Auro 3D of course)
http://www.auro-3d.com/press/2016/12/an-impressive-3d-sound-experience-in-the-new-panamera/
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Don't get me wrong, there is plenty of room for old school vinyl with tube amps and the like. It just confirms how much 2 channels sucks when you need tech from the fifties to try and make it suck less.
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I don't care how sincere your title is, it's still clickbait.
But I will ask a question or two. Are you listening to music recorded in stereo, or are there recordings specifically made for this? If stereo, is it simply processed to get the 10.1 effect? If you only have one rear speaker hooked up, what do you hear (I'm seriously curious about this one)?
One last question. Are those pics of your living quarters?
That is a really good question. I chat in these forums with members who have hundreds of multichannel SACD's, DVD-A, Blue Ray's, and now immersive audio recordings in auro, atmos, and DTS.I never tried it yet. I stream most music and just use the auromatic upmixer. I prefer live concert recordings over concertvault.com and qello.com and also use Tidal.
My Sony UHPH1 can play any type of disc so I suppose I am due to get some of those multichannel recordings.
So, the music I listen to has been recorded in stereo so far. It is simple to upmix it, you just select auro 3D on the remote. I have tried the Atmos upmixer for music but it wasn't for me.
I have 2 rear speakers hooked up but my marantz processor doesn't engage them for auro. i would need to buy a processor by datasat, trinnov or storm to get auro in more than 10 channels.
It doesn't sound like 10 speakers, it just sounds like you are surrounded in a bubble of sound. With 5 or 7 channel I was always aware of the surround speakers, particularly when music emanated from behind you. Auro 3D avoids that. The performers just sound like they are in the front of the room, very natural. There are exceptions like when i play riders on the storm. The thunder in the beginning of the song comes from above you, like real thunder. But for the most part it just envelops you on typical recordings.
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That is a really good question. I chat in these forums with members who have hundreds of multichannel SACD's, DVD-A, Blue Ray's, and now immersive audio recordings in auro, atmos, and DTS.I never tried it yet. I stream most music and just use the auromatic upmixer. I prefer live concert recordings over concertvault.com and qello.com and also use Tidal.
My Sony UHPH1 can play any type of disc so I suppose I am due to get some of those multichannel recordings.
So, the music I listen to has been recorded in stereo so far. It is simple to upmix it, you just select auro 3D on the remote. I have tried the Atmos upmixer for music but it wasn't for me.
I have 2 rear speakers hooked up but my marantz processor doesn't engage them for auro. i would need to buy a processor by datasat, trinnov or storm to get auro in more than 10 channels.
It doesn't sound like 10 speakers, it just sounds like you are surrounded in a bubble of sound. With 5 or 7 channel I was always aware of the surround speakers, particularly when music emanated from behind you. Auro 3D avoids that. The performers just sound like they are in the front of the room, very natural. There are exceptions like when i play riders on the storm. The thunder in the beginning of the song comes from above you, like real thunder. But for the most part it just envelops you on typical recordings.
And how does the processor know to put the thunder above?
I remember a Sony receiver I had back in the 90s that had these settings such as "concert," "church," "hall," and the like. It was great fun to engage one of those settings once in a while, but it wore off.
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The basic premise is true and has been known for decades, as for example, summarized here http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=9136 (http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=9136)
Here we are 17 years later and what was infeasible in 2000 is feasible now and for a sensible price too!
Actually, it was feasible then http://www.onhifi.com/features/20010615.htm (http://www.onhifi.com/features/20010615.htm)
It's just that kind of reproduction isn't and hasn't been the goal of "high end" and so called audiophiles for decades http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/1107awsi/#L87yGDCgzHoIBaxB.97 (http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/1107awsi/#L87yGDCgzHoIBaxB.97)
Audio actually used to have a goal: perfect reproduction of the sound of real music performed in a real space. That was found difficult to achieve, and it was abandoned when most music lovers, who almost never heard anything except amplified music anyway, forgot what "the real thing" had sounded like. Today, "good" sound is whatever one likes.
I will definitely be looking into Auro.
cheers,
AJ
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And how does the processor know to put the thunder above?
I remember a Sony receiver I had back in the 90s that had these settings such as "concert," "church," "hall," and the like. It was great fun to engage one of those settings once in a while, but it wore off.
I have no idea of the science behind the algorithm or how it knows what to place where, it just works.
There are white papers on the Auro website if you are interested.
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Here we are 17 years later and what was infeasible in 2000 is feasible now and for a sensible price too!
Actually, it was feasible then http://www.onhifi.com/features/20010615.htm (http://www.onhifi.com/features/20010615.htm)
It's just that kind of reproduction isn't and hasn't been the goal of "high end" and so called audiophiles for decades http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/1107awsi/#L87yGDCgzHoIBaxB.97 (http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/1107awsi/#L87yGDCgzHoIBaxB.97)I will definitely be looking into Auro.
cheers,
AJ
There are some good resources on youtube if you search and good white papers on the auro website.
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You heard it boys: we can all sell our two-channel systems and buy a Marantz AVR and 9 bookshelf speakers.
Or just add the Auro AVR/bookshelfs to the dearly beloved two-channel system. Heaven forbid.
The Auro AVR with the "Off" button, on the remote too.
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Check out the exhibits at upcoming audio shows to see if Ray Kimber is still demonstrating the IsoMike surround-sound. The 2013 RMAF demo featured 4 Sony SSAR-1 loudspeakers ($27,000 pair), Pass Labs X350.5 amplification, EMM Labs equipment connected to a Sonoma—32 super audio center, and Kimber Kabling. The discrete 4 channel recordings were immersive.
"IsoMike™ (Isolated Microphones) is an experimental acoustic baffle system, to address the interference of intrachannel sounds that results in compromised fidelity. For these 4-channel recordings, the microphones were suspended on four arms, separated by IsoMike™ baffles."
IsoMike sells music too, albums are $40
http://www.isomike.com/ (http://www.isomike.com/)
Individual SACD Surround (4-Channel) downloads from their The Fry Street Quartet - Joseph Haydn String Quartets album (2.8MHz DSF) are available for $5 each.
http://isomike.downloadsnow.net/ (http://isomike.downloadsnow.net/)
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Check out the exhibits at upcoming audio shows to see if Ray Kimber is still demonstrating the IsoMike surround-sound. The 2013 RMAF demo featured 4 Sony SSAR-1 loudspeakers ($27,000 pair), Pass Labs X350.5 amplification, EMM Labs equipment connected to a Sonoma—32 super audio center, and Kimber Kabling. The discrete 4 channel recordings were immersive.
"IsoMike™ (Isolated Microphones) is an experimental acoustic baffle system, to address the interference of intrachannel sounds that results in compromised fidelity. For these 4-channel recordings, the microphones were suspended on four arms, separated by IsoMike™ baffles."
IsoMike sells music too, albums are $40
http://www.isomike.com/ (http://www.isomike.com/)
Individual SACD Surround (4-Channel) downloads from their The Fry Street Quartet - Joseph Haydn String Quartets album (2.8MHz DSF) are available for $5 each.
http://isomike.downloadsnow.net/ (http://isomike.downloadsnow.net/)
Wow, the sample sounds amazing, I will get the download, thanks!
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You could hold an open house and let folks come over and decide for themselves.
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You could hold an open house and let folks come over and decide for themselves.
That's what dealers are for :D. At least there are enough speaker manufacturers with in home auditions so you can try it out. I waited until I wanted to upgrade my processor and then made sure I chose one with immersive audio. Then I added two front height channels for use with DTS Neo-X and Audyssey DSX. Eventually I got the other two height channels and it seemed Auro was the best setup for music and movies. I can still enjoy Atmos even though my setup isn't what Dolby prescribes. This article compares them-
http://ce-pro.eu/2016/12/3d-audio-dolby-atmos-auro-3d-dtsx/
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Don't get me wrong, there is plenty of room for old school vinyl with tube amps and the like. It just confirms how much 2 channels sucks when you need tech from the fifties to try and make it suck less.
One has to ask, have you even heard a good 2 channel setup?
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Don't get me wrong, there is plenty of room for old school vinyl with tube amps and the like. It just confirms how much 2 channels sucks when you need tech from the fifties to try and make it suck less.
And, people are searching like crazy for LPs from the 50s, or they are being re-issued in pricey vinyl or HR downloads. Why, one might ask?
Because it sucks?
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And, people are searching like crazy for LPs from the 50s, or they are being re-issued in pricey vinyl or HR downloads. Why, one might ask?
Because it sucks?
Well compare two channel stereo to video, would you use a TV from the fifties or even one from the nineties? We have gone from black and white video to 4K and on the other hand we have gone from two channel vinyl audio with tubes to an MP3 with earbuds on an iphone. not what i would describe as progress.
So yes, I would say if 0 progress has been made from the fifties that stereo technology sucks. Not to say it doesn't have nostalgic appeal just like old songs do but this goes back to post #1 in this thread, that a good two channel rig costs way too much because the technology is so "underwhelming" to begin with to be polite.
I do enjoy two channel in the near field with my JBL's. I think it brings me closer to what the engineer heard in the mastering room. But it doesn't create the live experience as well as my big rig.
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One has to ask, have you even heard a good 2 channel setup?
Have you ever heard a live orchestra?
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Fair question, and yes I think my current Paradigm Active 40 speakers sound amazing in stereo (I have 6 of them as bed channels but can listen to them in stereo when i want). I have used a Sunfire TG3 processor in stereo and my Marantz 7702 in pure direct stereo.just read the beginning of this review if you want.
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/paradigm_active40.htm
Folsom I see Industry Participant in your handle, what does that mean? What axe do you have to grind may i ask? Are you subtly trying to promote your 2 channel wares?
Imo, surround proc/ HTreceiver are Loudsy when it comes to 2 channel stereo. (Their design goal is to produce multichannel application. Stereo is just an option or an after though). It is odd that You haven't had any long experience of listen or owning any "true quality" 2 channel set up yet so what is a point of saying 2 channel suck?
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Imo, surround proc/ HTreceiver are Loudsy when it comes to 2 channel stereo. (Their design goal is to produce multichannel application. Stereo is just an option or an after though). It is odd that You haven't had any long experience of listen or owning any "true quality" 2 channel set up yet so what is a point of saying 2 channel suck?
I think HT processors can be amazing two channel preamps. I am not using a receiver, I am using separates. This is a review of the Sunfire TG3 I used for many years. The author states:
In conclusion, Bob Carver has done something very special and has come up with a full surround sound, solid state, processor that has a truly enjoyable hi-end sound, rivaling the qualities of tube electronics. One can feel quite comfortable with this unit as your system controller for both high quality audio and home theater.
Kudos, Mr. Carver.” -Martin Appel
http://stereotimes.com/post/the-sunfire-theater-grand-processor-iii
As for the Marantz 7702
I cannot point to anything I heard as a specific flaw, or a specific virtue, in the AV7702’s 2-channel performance. It mostly did what good audio electronics do: get out of the recording’s way.
YMMV
I do have a dedicated two channel Parasound pre-amp I used in my desktop system but it wasn't any better than my other gear.
Two channel sounds flat and uninvolving compared to 3D immersive audio, not to be confused with 2D "surround sound". Immersive audio adds the vertical soundfield, stereo is limited to left and right, front and back. When you take away the vertical soundstage and revert to two channel it sucks on most recordings. You don't need to be an "audiophile" to hear the difference, it is obvious.
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Has anyone other than me noticed that the people who are bothered by my statement that 2 channel sucks have never compared two channel to truly immersive audio? :duh:
Look at the progress that has been made in other types of tech since the fifties and what has changed in stereo? Yes, the actual equipment it is played back on has changed, but as for the 2 channel algorithm it is stuck in the past. Two channel does not exist in the real world, it is fake. When I hit a drum in my living room it isn't broadcast in 2 channel. So I am not saying that 10 channel Auro3D is the same as live music, I am saying it sounds closer to live music than 2 channel via the auromatic upmixer.
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Be nice folks.
Bob (moderator)
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???? :scratch:
They can't put for any sort of cogent response to any of the very basic science put forth, so it's ad hominem, red herrings, etc from here on out.
Your thread title is a bit hyperbolic, but then again, the responses of the 2ch stalwarts.... :roll:
Perhaps your title should have been "Realistic immersion from 2ch vs mch, no contest". but then again...
I guess the folks who heard this (posted earlier) http://www.onhifi.com/features/20010615.htm (http://www.onhifi.com/features/20010615.htm) would never have heard a "good" 2ch system either.
cheers,
AJ
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bothered by my statement that 2 channel sucks
That could also be because it doesn't, for certain types of music (electronic/studio constructs) where there are no immersive spatial rendering benefits (it could actually be a detraction).
I would guesstimate based on my exposure over 30+ yrs to audiophiles, at over a dozen shows, etc., that less than 10% listen to any kind of acoustic based music where a live performance would indeed be immersive. That is a preference, just like yours, so there is no right/wrong. IOW, no "suck" dichotomy.
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Has anyone other than me noticed that the people who are bothered by my statement that 2 channel sucks have never compared two channel to truly immersive audio? :duh:
Yes. I thought it was pretty well known that two channel has always been limiting when it comes to an immersive field. I have not heard Auro but would like to some day. I do like two channel but am open to the new processing options. I don't think it's correct to judge this on the merit of old surround processing either.
Perhaps I haven't heard a good two channel setup either.
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Odd thing about your statement "that is what dealers are for" to me. Being a "dealer" myself I have to point out that the investment to have display space is sizable to start. But to have it configured for the latest and ever changing surround codecs and equipment is just about impossible to keep up with for all but the largest dealers in town. Think about it for a second, when did you last go to Best Buy and hear such a demo? At least in my market that would be never. If there are more than 2 dealers in my city with a complete Atmos/Aura 3D demo I would be shocked.
And as a dealer I could not just simply display the technology I would have to integrate it into an environment that is pleasing to the person who may purchase it. Most guys here would be perfectly happy assembling a system such as yours if it performed but would never convince our wives that we should. That same applies to sales. The WAF is a HUGE issue with such purchases and must be addressed by any dealer with a show room.
So open up your home and show your goods. Share your love for music, sound and technology with those around you that would appreciate it. Many may not have the budget for such a purchase at this time and may really appreciate your efforts. If you are a private person and choose not to invite others into your home I would find it odd that you include pictures in the first place.
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They can't put for any sort of cogent response to any of the very basic science put forth, so it's ad hominem, red herrings, etc from here on out.
Your thread title is a bit hyperbolic, but then again, the responses of the 2ch stalwarts.... :roll:
Perhaps your title should have been "Realistic immersion from 2ch vs mch, no contest". but then again...
I guess the folks who heard this (posted earlier) http://www.onhifi.com/features/20010615.htm (http://www.onhifi.com/features/20010615.htm) would never have heard a "good" 2ch system either.
cheers,
AJ
Thanks for posting this, I have read similar things about a good ambisonics setup.
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Odd thing about your statement "that is what dealers are for" to me. Being a "dealer" myself I have to point out that the investment to have display space is sizable to start. But to have it configured for the latest and ever changing surround codecs and equipment is just about impossible to keep up with for all but the largest dealers in town. Think about it for a second, when did you last go to Best Buy and hear such a demo? At least in my market that would be never. If there are more than 2 dealers in my city with a complete Atmos/Aura 3D demo I would be shocked.
And as a dealer I could not just simply display the technology I would have to integrate it into an environment that is pleasing to the person who may purchase it. Most guys here would be perfectly happy assembling a system such as yours if it performed but would never convince our wives that we should. That same applies to sales. The WAF is a HUGE issue with such purchases and must be addressed by any dealer with a show room.
So open up your home and show your goods. Share your love for music, sound and technology with those around you that would appreciate it. Many may not have the budget for such a purchase at this time and may really appreciate your efforts. If you are a private person and choose not to invite others into your home I would find it odd that you include pictures in the first place.
Thanks very much for your post, no disrespect to dealers intended. My post was meant to encourage anyone reading this thread to get advice from a dealer in addition to the internet. Magnolia does have a room setup to demo Atmos and it sounds great in certain stores.
I think you are the PERFECT candidate to open your room and show your wares as you are a dealer. IMO 10 small speakers can be less obtrusive than 2 towers but that is purely subjective.
How about at least doing an auro3d demo for yourself and posting about it?
You might like this article about how a dealer helped a client setup and Auro 3D theater:
http://www.toruspower.com/articles/powered-up-for-auro-3d-surround-sound-2/
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Odd thing about your statement "that is what dealers are for" to me. Being a "dealer" myself I have to point out that the investment to have display space is sizable to start. But to have it configured for the latest and ever changing surround codecs and equipment is just about impossible to keep up with for all but the largest dealers in town. Think about it for a second, when did you last go to Best Buy and hear such a demo? At least in my market that would be never. If there are more than 2 dealers in my city with a complete Atmos/Aura 3D demo I would be shocked.
And as a dealer I could not just simply display the technology I would have to integrate it into an environment that is pleasing to the person who may purchase it. Most guys here would be perfectly happy assembling a system such as yours if it performed but would never convince our wives that we should. That same applies to sales. The WAF is a HUGE issue with such purchases and must be addressed by any dealer with a show room.
So open up your home and show your goods. Share your love for music, sound and technology with those around you that would appreciate it. Many may not have the budget for such a purchase at this time and may really appreciate your efforts. If you are a private person and choose not to invite others into your home I would find it odd that you include pictures in the first place.
Opening up ones private home to complete strangers to demo a product is as unpractical as a dealer having a show room with a complete atmos/aura 3d demo set up. :lol:
If one really wants to experience atmos/3d one can do it the practical way by purchasing said product and demo it in there OWN home and if they dont like it return it before the friggen (usually 30 day) warranty expires....for those who cant afford it well then all you can do is go by OTHER peoples EXPERIENCES with said product.
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Odd thing about your statement "that is what dealers are for" to me. Being a "dealer" myself I have to point out that the investment to have display space is sizable to start. But to have it configured for the latest and ever changing surround codecs and equipment is just about impossible to keep up with for all but the largest dealers in town. Think about it for a second, when did you last go to Best Buy and hear such a demo? At least in my market that would be never. If there are more than 2 dealers in my city with a complete Atmos/Aura 3D demo I would be shocked.
And as a dealer I could not just simply display the technology I would have to integrate it into an environment that is pleasing to the person who may purchase it. Most guys here would be perfectly happy assembling a system such as yours if it performed but would never convince our wives that we should. That same applies to sales. The WAF is a HUGE issue with such purchases and must be addressed by any dealer with a show room.
So open up your home and show your goods. Share your love for music, sound and technology with those around you that would appreciate it. Many may not have the budget for such a purchase at this time and may really appreciate your efforts. If you are a private person and choose not to invite others into your home I would find it odd that you include pictures in the first place.
Do you have a Regal Cinema in your area? Why not just get down to your local Regal Cinema and get an Auro 3D demo in the movie theater?
http://www.regmovies.com/Theatres/auro
http://www.auro-3d.com/consumer/movies
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Opening up ones private home to complete strangers to demo a product is as unpractical as a dealer having a show room with a complete atmos/aura 3d demo set up. :lol:
Stick around audiocircle long enough and you'll realize that most of us are willing to allow complete strangers into our homes for demos.
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Stick around audiocircle long enough and you'll realize that most of us are willing to allow complete strangers into our homes for demos.
And there's usual alcohol involved. :lol:
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Well compare two channel stereo to video, would you use a TV from the fifties or even one from the nineties?
Invalid analogy. There's some damned fine 1950s audio gear out there, still highly sought after for SQ. 1950s TV was primitive technology, designed for convenience, but let's consider the software. Fine recordings and performances from certain labels were commonplace, as were the production values of major motion pictures.
Educate yourself. See the restored version of Lawrence of Arabia in a real theater; a statement of art that will blow you away. Made for the theater experience. Mono, still amazing a good two-channel rig, and stereo were made for listening, be it the "King's seat" or a good console.
In comparison 1950s TV was finger painting.
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Don't get me wrong, two channel is fine for a desktop but for the main listening room it is WAY too expensive compared to immersive audio. Why do you see six figure systems on display at Axpona or these other shows? Because that what it costs to make 2 channel suck less. If your idea of audio fun is gluing your ass to the sweet spot and pretending it doesn't suck just move around the room a little to see what I mean.
Do me a favor, buy 10 decent book shelf speakers and a sub and get yourself a Marantz or Denon receiver, get the Auro 3D upgrade and just leave it on. You can thank me later while you move around the room and it sounds great everywhere and an orchestra sounds like an orchestra not a facsimile.
Just not so. There are many ways to skin the proverbial Cat with two channel. We are creating an illusion with our reproduction of music. Yes Sir reproduction. Ten channels of processing the signal is chancy at best. Besides what program material was recorded in ten channels ?
For me it is what I call "Humpty Dumpty" music. Just cannot put it together properly after all broken down, processed reconfigured and presented. When I go to Carnegie Hall no surround feel there. Upfront and personal to my ears.
I'll stick with two channel played with a BSG QOL over any surround system out there. That's me, until I hear a surround system that does not have the violins coming from behind me.
charles
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BTW, your system does look fairly complicated to my eye from the photo and don't you think SET is gimmicky compared to a state of the art immersive home theater that can do both movies and music?
I will probably get run out on a rail for saying so here, but I don't believe one system can be optimized for both home theater and two channel music. One or the other is going to suffer. Although this is a discussion for a different day and takes away from the intent of the thread, suffice it to say that even the constraints of physically locating the speakers for movies will not be the best location for two channel music. And vice versa. Then you get into the electronics aspect of it and it goes downhill from there pretty quickly.
I will just have to respectfully agree to disagree with you.
Shakey
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For me it is what I call "Humpty Dumpty" music. Just cannot put it together properly after all broken down, processed reconfigured and presented.
Well, that describes stereo pretty well.... not only that but you mangle your signal by passing it through a BSG QOL (or did you only mention that because you are a dealer for it).
until I hear a surround system that does not have the violins coming from behind me.
Have you heard an Auro-3D system?
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More is better!
For immersion, yes. It's mandatory, not optional. I've already posted several links for physically, why.
For some folks who listen to certain types of music, or whose demands are not as close to "real" as others, then "frontal stereo" from the 40s is all that is needed.
For others, this is insufficient. Preference obviously plays a role here.
This point seems to be flying over many heads...you don't need to do a thing to your "pure" front stereo, by adding MCH speakers (say rears and front heights) and a adjustable MCH processor with an OFF button. You can have your cake and eat it too.
This shouldn't be that difficult, but I guess there are some entrenched views.
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Be nice to see some measurements on this immersive audio system. I know with multi-sub set-up with different heights, it can help to flatten lower frequency nulls/ peaks due to room loading, etc.. Not sure if that many multiple speakers would improve or degrade the overall sound.
I got to say that even if an immersive audio system sounded better, I couldn’t live with the ugliness of all those speakers, mike stands, wires everywhere, speaker “hemorrhoids” hanging off the walls. Not to mention all the space this type of system consumes! A good set of tower speakers are typically nice pieces of furniture & blend better with a room’s aesthetics. Just sayin’…
I went down the HT rabbit hole w/ a Paradigm 6.1 speaker system w/ Audyssey multi-EQ processing/ mike set-up AVR before my current 2 channel rig. There was no contest, the 2 channel system wins by a large margin in audio & video: greater clarity, no boomy/ bloated bass, more natural soundstage, not exaggerated with bizzare instrument placements.
I’ve been reading Bruce Springsteen’s biography. When recording “The River”, he wanted a greater ambience/ live feeling to the sound; so they moved the mikes up above the band. Bruce got Jimmy Iovine (who didn’t work on this particular album) to listen to the entire album to which Iovine replied “When are you going to add the vocals” ? Seems that the vocals were totally lost in trying to get that “concert sound”. :lol:
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I will probably get run out on a rail for saying so here, but I don't believe one system can be optimized for both home theater and two channel music. One or the other is going to suffer. Although this is a discussion for a different day and takes away from the intent of the thread, suffice it to say that even the constraints of physically locating the speakers for movies will not be the best location for two channel music. And vice versa. Then you get into the electronics aspect of it and it goes downhill from there pretty quickly.
I will just have to respectfully agree to disagree with you.
Shakey
I understand, I do have a two channel desktop system I enjoy, I just wouldn't want to be limited to only two channel. My thread title was two channel sucks COMPARED to immersive audio, not that it sucks so bad I wouldn't use it at all.
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A. He is probably posting in this thread because it's an open forum for the exchange of ideas. If you start a thread hoping that everyone is of a like mind, you should probably moderate your own own personal website. Dissenting ideas are still allowed, right?
B. Where was the insult? I must have missed it.
Shakey
I think he could have made his point without referring to a "rats nest of cables".
I like my cables :thumb:
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:duh: I should have just stayed out of this thread. My bad. Probably the fact that I have less and less time to listen to my system and being very happy where it is now. Just happy every time I have a chance to sit back and listen to some tunes. Each person can do whatever they want, but not in my room. 8)
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Be nice to see some measurements on this immersive audio system. I know with multi-sub set-up with different heights, it can help to flatten lower frequency nulls/ peaks due to room loading, etc.. Not sure if that many multiple speakers would improve or degrade the overall sound.
I got to say that even if an immersive audio system sounded better, I couldn’t live with the ugliness of all those speakers, mike stands, wires everywhere, speaker “hemorrhoids” hanging off the walls. Not to mention all the space this type of system consumes! A good set of tower speakers are typically nice pieces of furniture & blend better with a room’s aesthetics. Just sayin’…
I went down the HT rabbit hole w/ a Paradigm 6.1 speaker system w/ Audyssey multi-EQ processing/ mike set-up AVR before my current 2 channel rig. There was no contest, the 2 channel system wins by a large margin in audio & video: greater clarity, no boomy/ bloated bass, more natural soundstage, not exaggerated with bizzare instrument placements.
I’ve been reading Bruce Springsteen’s biography. When recording “The River”, he wanted a greater ambience/ live feeling to the sound; so they moved the mikes up above the band. Bruce got Jimmy Iovine (who didn’t work on this particular album) to listen to the entire album to which Iovine replied “When are you going to add the vocals” ? Seems that the vocals were totally lost in trying to get that “concert sound”. :lol:
I cannot provide measurements, however here is a book that includes a LOT of measurements for surround sound NOT immersive audio but it may give you some data to work with:
https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers-Engineering/dp/0240520092/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1493655138&sr=8-1&keywords=floyd+toole+sound+reproduction
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Be nice to see some measurements on this immersive audio system.
What type of measurements and what would that tell you about the immersion?
I know with multi-sub set-up with different heights, it can help to flatten lower frequency nulls/ peaks due to room loading, etc..
Right, but that is often done in mono, thus has zero chance of spatial effects and immersion: https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/conferences/?elib=17270 (https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/conferences/?elib=17270)
Which may be fine for electronica fans, but not acoustic.
I got to say that even if an immersive audio system sounded better, I couldn’t live with the ugliness of all those speakers, mike stands, wires everywhere, speaker “hemorrhoids” hanging off the walls. Not to mention all the space this type of system consumes! A good set of tower speakers are typically nice pieces of furniture & blend better with a room’s aesthetics. Just sayin’…
All red herring. Mic stands?? In my system the rears are hidden in lamp shades and to go to something like this Auro, the front heights could be inwalls above the main towers.
I'm afraid all this backlash is of no substance whatsoever.
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Just like you can have a headphone system AND a 2 channel system you can have a 2 channel system AND an immersive audio system, why the stress?
If you already have a 5.1 system all you need is a new receiver and 4 additional book shelf speakers (ideally the same brand as your bed channels).
My thread title does not say to trash whatever you use now, I am advocating adding to it.
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This idea had been around a while http://www.linkwitzlab.com/surround_system.htm (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/surround_system.htm)
(http://www.linkwitzlab.com/images/graphics/surround2.gif)
In my system, the preamp has dual outputs (like countless others do) and the "main" feeds the stereo LR, while the 2nd output feeds the MCH Logic7 processor. I do not use sides, just rears that are at around 110 degrees.
With something like Auro, I would only be interested in the front height channels, again very easily added without associated melodrama. especially since there is an "Off" button. :roll:
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A good set of tower speakers are typically nice pieces of furniture & blend better with a room’s aesthetics.
Not to anyone except audio nutters :D
This is the Home Theater and Video circle so I would have thought it's not unreasonable to assume that people already have a 5.1 or more system (in terms of numbers of speakers, wires etc). Here's an Auro install, doesn't look so bad to me -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSYcUH4oxIc
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John,
Agreed, that is a system well done. Kind of makes my point from way earlier in the thread about WAF being a big deal. Nice work there.
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C'mon. You can't say that with a straight face. Your thread title & original post mentioned 2 channel & the word "suck" 3 times. Two posters responded by referring to your thread as clickbait & you graduating from troll college. You knew that you were going to get a rise out of folks by being over the top.
Congrats though, you took a 1-2 page thread at best & stretched it out to 6 pages & counting. Hell, I bit. Good job. :thumb:
Thank you. The cost of entry to immersive audio is low in the scope of budget for audio gear. The idea of mounting speakers high on the wall and running speaker wire is a bit of a hassle but no more so than traditional surround speakers. I was chatting with another forum member who has converted to immersive setup. He said when he upgraded from a receiver to a $20K Datasat processor his wife didn't even notice. The first time he fired up immersive audio after adding the height channels she was blown away, and she is not even into this hobby. :o
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To give you an idea of how easy this is to set up get 5 pairs of these ($1145 all in):
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/cambaero2bla/cambridge-audio-aero-2-6.5-2-way-bookshelf-speakers-black-pair/1.html
one of these ($999):
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavrx4300h/denon-avr-x4300h-9.2-ch-x-125-watts-networking-a/v-receiver/1.html
add a nice sub and a source and you are done. The good news is most people in this circle already have 5.1 so all they would need is the receiver and another 4-5 speakers.
How could you go the next 5 years of home theater without at least trying immersive audio? Especially with the reasonable cost of entry.
For $2000 all in you can keep your 2 channel rig and install this system in another room. Can you spend more than $2K? Sure, I am just saying this is not insanely expensive to get into.
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I don't want 10 speakers in my living room!!
I am more than happy with my 2.1 hometheater with projector and screen .
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I don't want 10 speakers in my living room!!
I am more than happy with my 2.1 hometheater with projector and screen .
Fair enough, I could get bigger and better speakers for my current system too but am happy with what I have.
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I was chatting with another forum member who has converted to immersive setup. He said when he upgraded from a receiver to a $20K Datasat processor his wife didn't even notice. The first time he fired up immersive audio after adding the height channels she was blown away, and she is not even into this hobby. :o
Here is someone willing to try just added L7 rears http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/two-channel-design-installation/161626-son-off-college-dad-2-channel-room-3.html#post1561474 (http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/two-channel-design-installation/161626-son-off-college-dad-2-channel-room-3.html#post1561474)
Keep in mind preference here. Some folks think all music should sound like 40s frontal stereo and have no idea how immersive an orchestra in a concert hall experience is. YMMV.
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The truth is there is probably way more common ground in listening preferences between the original poster and "two channel crowd" who are pushing back than there are differences in opinion. We all in this hobby have an interest in enhancing the listening experience so the topic of "immersive audio" should be one that is of interest to us all. The issue some of us have with the initial post is the same issue that seems to exist in politics, religion, or any number of topics where there is the potential for differences of opinions or preferences. The tone nowadays for so many discussions like this seems to be "your ideas suck and mine are good". Further discourse, discussion and debate in any kind of a give and take civil manner is pretty much shut off. Rather than begin what should have been a very interesting and informative discussion in an inviting tone like "hey let me share what I have discovered...I like it and you may too" approach it came across as what I like is great and what you like sucks. Great way to start a discussion...
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As far as measurements go, I was referring to all SPL frequency response & waterfall, say "before" w/ 2 channel only & "after" with multiple speakers. Just curious if anything is given up to achieve an immersive experience.
FR and CSD are different views of the same thing. That wouldn't tell you anything about immersion. Multiple links have been posted for anyone interested in what this is actually about.
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Here's an Auro install, doesn't look so bad to me -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSYcUH4oxIc
The front channels should be OB :D
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Stick around audiocircle long enough and you'll realize that most of us are willing to allow complete strangers into our homes for demos.
I dont need to stick around to know that majority of people wont allow complete strangers to knock on there door at what ever hours of the day or night and let them come into there home to demo sound like a BUSINESS DEALER would. :lol:
On a forum one would get to know that person first and talk to them both on the forum as well by phone and feel them out and then if one feels comfortable enough with that person one will decide if its ok to let that person into there private home.....If not you could just post your address and phone number on this site and let every tom dick or harry just drop by at all hours or even specified hours like any other audio store business. Where is the LMAO smiley????
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I dont need to stick around to know that majority of people wont allow complete strangers to knock on there door at what ever hours of the day or night and let them come into there home to demo sound like a BUSINESS DEALER would. :lol:
On a forum one would get to know that person talk to them both on the forum as well by phone and feel them out and then if one feels comfortable enough with that person one will decide if its ok to let that person into there private home.....If not you could just post your address and phone number on this site and let every tom dick or harry just drop by at all hours or even specified hours like any other audio store business. Where is the LMAO smiley????
Over 10 years ago another member here named Satfrat did invite me over to checkout his setup as we were both using a Sunfire processor. It can happen but I don't know that I would go home and make a purchase based on what I listened to in another members home. It was more about socializing than an equipment audition. I also had a member who was a dealer once stop by and drop off some equipment for an audition which I purchased after I auditioned it in my own setup that I was familiar with. I think at the end of the day nothing compares to hearing whatever you might purchase in your own room.
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Correct about posting your address for anyone to come calling, but on AC we tend to build trust relationships over time and our shared interest in quality audio. I've been lucky enough to visit 6 or 7 AC members, and have loaned/borrowed gear to/from near strangers without any problems at all. It's great to learn from each other in person and get turned on to new music or other interests. :thumb:
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To give you an idea of how easy this is to set up get 5 pairs of these ($1145 all in):
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/cambaero2bla/cambridge-audio-aero-2-6.5-2-way-bookshelf-speakers-black-pair/1.html
one of these ($999):
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavrx4300h/denon-avr-x4300h-9.2-ch-x-125-watts-networking-a/v-receiver/1.html
add a nice sub and a source and you are done. The good news is most people in this circle already have 5.1 so all they would need is the receiver and another 4-5 speakers.
How could you go the next 5 years of home theater without at least trying immersive audio? Especially with the reasonable cost of entry.
For $2000 all in you can keep your 2 channel rig and install this system in another room. Can you spend more than $2K? Sure, I am just saying this is not insanely expensive to get into.
As a home theater guy, I'd like to back up a bit and get clarification on exactly what's "immersive audio".
In the title of the thread, you even capitalized those two words like it's a proper noun. Meaning that there's a company called "Immersive Audio".
Granted, I've spent the past several pages skimming this thread looking for a reason to act on it from a moderators standpoint. But when you use the word "Immersive", are you just talking about a state of being wholly submerged in the audio experience you're bathing in? Or are you talking about being immersed in the new HT tech called "Atmos"? Or just because the AVR has an additional two outputs for a pair of "front high" speakers?
I built my HT/audio room and feel like I'm "immersed" when I watch a movie, but if there's another level of "immersion", then I'm all ears.
Do tell. :thumb:
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on AC we tend to build trust relationships over time and our shared interest in quality audio. Have loaned/borrowed gear to/from near strangers without any problems at all. It's great to learn from each other in person and get turned on to new music or other interests. :thumb:
+1
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Have I been under the misconception that loudspeaker quality was an important factor in sound reproduction, where the "rubber meets the road", if you will?
Do I need to forget about the incredible sounding speakers I've owned or heard with precision Revelators, Illuminators, Satoris, RAAL ribbons, beryllium domes and quality crossovers? Can 10 entry-level speakers sound better for the same budget as a stereo pair of higher quality speakers if they are processed by Auro 3D?
Not sure I'm buying into that and no way can I afford 10 high-quality speakers. We've all been pleased with some of our ~ $200/pr speaker purchases for the money, whether Cambridge Aero, Gallo Classico, Philharmonic/Dayton Affordable Accuracy, etc., but most of us have relegated them to more casual secondary systems and few have found their way into our main systems, except perhaps as rear surrounds for movie effect use.
Steve
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As a home theater guy, I'd like to back up a bit and get clarification on exactly what's "immersive audio".
In the title of the thread, you even capitalized those two words like it's a proper noun. Meaning that there's a company called "Immersive Audio".
Granted, I've spent the past several pages skimming this thread looking for a reason to act on it from a moderators standpoint. But when you use the word "Immersive", are you just talking about a state of being wholly submerged in the audio experience you're bathing in? Or are you talking about being immersed in the new HT tech called "Atmos"? Or just because the AVR has an additional two outputs for a pair of "front high" speakers?
I built my HT/audio room and feel like I'm "immersed" when I watch a movie, but if there's another level of "immersion", then I'm all ears.
Do tell. :thumb:
Surround sound is 2D, you have sound front and back, left and right. " Immersive" audio is the addition of a vertical sound stage from floor to ceiling make it "3D". This article goes into more details:
http://www.audioholics.com/audio-technologies/auro-3d-interview
As for Atmos it is GREAT for movies when you want sounds panned from above. It SUCKS for music upmixing with guitars or drums (even vocals) coming down from the ceiling. If you are watching a movie mixed in Atmos or sometimes upmixed with Atmos it is good. Music, not so much.
Auro3D has 3 layers compared to Atmos 2 layers. You have the typical 5.1 bed channels, then high on the walls above your bed channels you have height channels and then one speaker above you for a voice of god channel. Together it is 3 layers compared to Atmos 2. Now in my room you can not localize the speakers unless you put your ear next to them. It sounds extremely natural.
It is neither submerged or bathing in sound. On acoustic recordings you can localize things like fingers moving up and down the frets of a standup bass or the height of the piano as well as the placement on stage. In a concert video listening to Tina Turner on Qello today you feel a lot closer to the stage and it sounds more like a concert than a music video.
In movies some how the algorithm knows to place planes and such above you. In the beginning of The Jungle Book you could hear the bugs and the leaves rustling all around you. If you are more of a movie guy you may want to consider an Atmos setup as there is much more Atmos content on Blue Ray. Atmos sounds fine in my Auro setup to my ear. One of the best movies I have heard in Auro 3D upmix was Avengers Civil War. It felt like my condo was coming down on me. My favorite movie in Atmos was LOTR, the scene where the wizard on a sled is being chased by Orcs, just great. Some of the people with Atmos actually prefer Auro because you can adjust how much you want to enagage the height channels. With Atmos you get what you get, like it or lump it. If I spent $30 on an Atmos disc and the director didn't use the height channels much in the mix due to problems with conversion to blue ray you are screwed. With Auromatic you have a scale of 1-16 for height channel enagement and another for the size of your room. You can get any material dialed in for your preference. Again with Atmos or DTS-X you get what you get, like it or not. If you are going to stay in this hobby you need to compare for yourself and decide. You would hate to waste time consuming conten if you could have increased your enjoyment this easily. The next time you upgrade your receiver or processor just get one that offers Auro as Atmos and DTS-X aren't adjustable and don't do music very well in upmix mode IMO.
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Can 10 entry-level speakers sound better for the same budget as a stereo pair of higher quality speakers if they are processed by Auro 3D?
Possibly. When did you compare them for immersion and/or "sound better"?
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Have I been under the misconception that loudspeaker quality was an important factor in sound reproduction, where the "rubber meets the road", if you will?
Do I need to forget about the incredible sounding speakers I've owned or heard with precision Revelators, Illuminators, Satoris, RAAL ribbons, beryllium domes and quality crossovers? Can 10 entry-level speakers sound better for the same budget as a stereo pair of higher quality speakers if they are processed by Auro 3D?
My system was built over time. I started with 5.1, then 7.1, then 9.1 (I used wide channels with my Sunfire gear). That took about a year adding little by little. Then when I got the Marantz with Auro I started with two front height channels then about six months later got the rear height channels. I enjoyed each iteration and never gave up anything. I can listed to any iteration (2,5,7,9 or 10 channel) by toggling my remote. You can tell from my thread title which I prefer but that is with my speakers and room. YMMV.
Not sure I'm buying into that and no way can I afford 10 high-quality speakers. We've all been pleased with some of our ~ $200/pr speaker purchases for the money, whether Cambridge Aero, Gallo Classico, Philharmonic/Dayton Affordable Accuracy, etc., but most of us have relegated them to more casual secondary systems and few have found their way into our main systems, except perhaps as rear surrounds for movie effect use.
Steve
Hi Steve, You ask the million dollar question and I have a million dollar answer. The speakers need to be appropriate for your room, whether you have 2 or 10. My approach worked for my condo, I don't know if it would work for a dedicated home theater like I see in a magazine. (Actually it wouldn't work because no one would tolerate the exposed speakers I have in a dedicated theater).
I think in a small room I would do Gallo Orbs, Kef Eggs or the like all around. Would 10 Kef Eggs blow away 2 Kef LS 50? No way. I think that is silly. BUT, can I create a kick ass system with 3 Kef LS 50's in front and 7 Kef Eggs in an immersive home theater? Yes, and I could listen how I want, when I want, to what I want. You can't do that with a 2 channel rig. I can do both with a 10 channel rig, so why not?
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My system was built over time. I started with 5.1, then 7.1, then 9.1 (I used wide channels with my Sunfire gear). That took about a year adding little by little. Then when I got the Marantz with Auro I started with two front height channels then about six months later got the rear height channels. I enjoyed each iteration and never gave up anything. I can listed to any iteration (2,5,7,9 or 10 channel) by toggling my remote. You can tell from my thread title which I prefer but that is with my speakers and room. If you want a LOT of bigger budget speakers spacing your purchases lets you enjoy what you own now and add channels as funds allow without feeling you are sacrificing on speaker quality. YMMV.
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Do I need to forget about the incredible sounding speakers I've owned or heard with precision Revelators, Illuminators, Satoris, RAAL ribbons, beryllium domes and quality crossovers? Can 10 entry-level speakers sound better for the same budget as a stereo pair of higher quality speakers if they are processed by Auro 3D?
You can buy speakers "with precision Revelators, Illuminators, Satoris, RAAL ribbons, beryllium domes and quality crossovers" for $1000/pair?
Not sure I'm buying into that and no way can I afford 10 high-quality speakers. We've all been pleased with some of our ~ $200/pr speaker purchases for the money, whether Cambridge Aero, Gallo Classico, Philharmonic/Dayton Affordable Accuracy, etc., but most of us have relegated them to more casual secondary systems and few have found their way into our main systems, except perhaps as rear surrounds for movie effect use.
I find that a curious argument.... if you think they are good enough for surrounds, why do you think they are not good enough for height speakers as well?
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You can buy speakers "with precision Revelators, Illuminators, Satoris, RAAL ribbons, beryllium domes and quality crossovers" for $1000/pair?
Not quite, but I can buy a speaker with a Scanspeak Revelator woofer and a RAAL ribbon tweeter for $1150 (Philharmonic Audio Philharmonitor).
I find that a curious argument.... if you think they are good enough for surrounds, why do you think they are not good enough for height speakers as well?
I was referring to the recommendation to purchase the Cambridge Audio Aero 2 for all 10 speakers. That was subsequently followed by another proposed system that acknowledged that better speakers for the front three LCR (KEF LS50) and lesser speakers for the 7 surrounds (KEF Eggs) might be more appropriate for some people.
As for the economy speakers I have for rear surrounds in a 5.1 system, I think they are "good enough" for movie surround sound effects but not necessarily for multi-channel music.
Steve
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OK, so you could buy three pairs of Philharmonitor for $3450 to add to your current mains for an Auro 8.0 setup.
Or, if you had a 5.1 system already, you could buy four pairs for the heights and surrounds (toss the current "not good enough" surrounds) for 11.1, at $4600.
If we supposed your current mains are Soundscape 8s at $8995/pair, the additional cost for all the extra speakers for 8.0 is less than 40%. In the 11.1 scenario and assuming an existing 7C center, it's a fairly similar ratio.
Of course most of us do have budget constraints of some kind or another but I guess I don't see that dismissing the whole concept based on speaker cost is really valid.
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IMO we all have different (individual) sonic priorities. Some are tube guys, some speaker guys, etc. Personally I could never ignore vinyl surface noise like so many seemingly can. This stereo/HT/immersive phenomenon seems to fit that observation. Being an old music priority guy I take the following exceptions:
1.) This is a very artificial and arbitrary construct. In a stereo recording process tracks are mixed and mastered by professionals to create a realistic stereo image. Immersive Audio takes that stereo recording and creates channels that didn't exist in the original and is done without any intelligent skill applied to the individual recording.
2.) This is a very awkward setup for nearly any existing domestic space. Only a blind mother could love all the wires, stands, and speakers everywhere. And like HT formats it requires adherence to sitting in a sweet spot (or a huge room) more so than stereo.
3.) Comparison of ten $200 speakers to a pair of quality $1000 each speakers frankly is ridiculous and cause to dismiss the whole concept. OTOH using ten $1000 each quality speakers (with comparable quality amplification and cabling) greatly increases costs.
4.) Ideally more channels, properly done, will yield a more defined 3D soundstage. However the devil is in the details and way too many details are missing. And in general complexity breeds distortion. It may be initially entertaining, but like so many other special effect speakers (omni, dipole, array) and formats (quad, SACD, DVDa) I expect it will be abandoned as the market is moving towards smaller and simpler solutions.
5.) As absurd as it may seem in this scenario what's missing is diffused bass output. Floyd Toole's work points to the need for multiple subwoofers in residential spaces to avoid +/- 20 dB peaks.
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Have I been under the misconception that loudspeaker quality was an important factor in sound reproduction, where the "rubber meets the road", if you will?
Do I need to forget about the incredible sounding speakers I've owned or heard with precision Revelators, Illuminators, Satoris, RAAL ribbons, beryllium domes and quality crossovers? Can 10 entry-level speakers sound better for the same budget as a stereo pair of higher quality speakers if they are processed by Auro 3D?
Not sure I'm buying into that and no way can I afford 10 high-quality speakers. We've all been pleased with some of our ~ $200/pr speaker purchases for the money, whether Cambridge Aero, Gallo Classico, Philharmonic/Dayton Affordable Accuracy, etc., but most of us have relegated them to more casual secondary systems and few have found their way into our main systems, except perhaps as rear surrounds for movie effect use.
Steve
Steve do you still own the Kef C60 speakers in your 5.1 system profile? I see matching speakers available on ebay that you can add as height channels for a sweet price-
http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=kef+c60&_sacat=&_ex_kw=&_mPrRngCbx=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_sop=12&_fpos=&_fspt=1&_sadis=&LH_CAds=&rmvSB=true
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5.) As absurd as it may seem in this scenario what's missing is diffused bass output. Floyd Toole's work points to the need for multiple subwoofers in residential spaces to avoid +/- 20 dB peaks.
Well, I can agree with one of your points - except for the "absurd" bit: how the ".1" channel is executed is important but largely irrelevant to this discussion.
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IMO we all have different (individual) sonic priorities. Some are tube guys, some speaker guys, etc. Personally I could never ignore vinyl surface noise like so many seemingly can. This stereo/HT/immersive phenomenon seems to fit that observation. Being an old music priority guy I take the following exceptions:
1.) This is a very artificial and arbitrary construct. In a stereo recording process tracks are mixed and mastered by professionals to create a realistic stereo image. Immersive Audio takes that stereo recording and creates channels that didn't exist in the original and is done without any intelligent skill applied to the individual recording.
2.) This is a very awkward setup for nearly any existing domestic space. Only a blind mother could love all the wires, stands, and speakers everywhere. And like HT formats it requires adherence to sitting in a sweet spot (or a huge room) more so than stereo.
3.) Comparison of ten $200 speakers to a pair of quality $1000 each speakers frankly is ridiculous and cause to dismiss the whole concept. OTOH using ten $1000 each quality speakers (with comparable quality amplification and cabling) greatly increases costs.
4.) Ideally more channels, properly done, will yield a more defined 3D soundstage. However the devil is in the details and way too many details are missing. And in general complexity breeds distortion. It may be initially entertaining, but like so many other special effect speakers (omni, dipole, array) and formats (quad, SACD, DVDa) I expect it will be abandoned as the market is moving towards smaller and simpler solutions.
5.) As absurd as it may seem in this scenario what's missing is diffused bass output. Floyd Toole's work points to the need for multiple subwoofers in residential spaces to avoid +/- 20 dB peaks.
Thanks for your post. I encountered no devils in the details.
1) Buy new auro capable processor.
2) Add height speakers to my current surround system as funds allow.
3) Let the good times roll. :thumb:
IMO height channels high on the wall are a lot more discreet than towers, surrounds or most subwoofers. I had to use tall stands due to the heavy Paradigm Active 20 speakers I use. I could have used Paradigm Millenia speakers which would have worked too and I doubt you would even notice them.
https://www.paradigm.com/products-current/series=millenia/model=milleniaone-1.0/page=overview
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IMO we all have different (individual) sonic priorities. Some are tube guys, some speaker guys, etc. Personally I could never ignore vinyl surface noise like so many seemingly can. This stereo/HT/immersive phenomenon seems to fit that observation.
No. For the 5th time, all this can be simply added to the beloved stereo shrine. Not one single thing needs to be done to the existing beloved stereo TT/Tubes, etc, etc, etc shrine. Add MCH to pre out and however many added speakers on needs for the upmix. For me, that would be 2 heights (already using surrounds). That's it. No 10 red herrings, etc.
This is a very artificial and arbitrary construct. In a stereo recording process tracks are mixed and mastered by professionals to create a realistic stereo image. Immersive Audio takes that stereo recording and creates channels that didn't exist in the original and is done without any intelligent skill applied to the individual recording.
Please. 99% of stereo recordings are artificial studio contructs. Very very few are binuaural mics pointed at musicians+instruments with zero post processing. Stereo itself is a construct.
But ok, so artificial and lack of intelligent skill is what you heard with Auro 3D upmixing? Could you share details of system etc you heard?
Ideally more channels, properly done, will yield a more defined 3D soundstage. However the devil is in the details and way too many details are missing.
Yes, especially the Auro3D listening experiences of the detractors :roll:
5.) As absurd as it may seem in this scenario what's missing is diffused bass output. Floyd Toole's work points to the need for multiple subwoofers in residential spaces to avoid +/- 20 dB peaks.
Right, but how do you do that above 40hz in mono and have any 3d? (Answer, you don't). https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/conferences/?elib=17270 (https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/conferences/?elib=17270)
I think it's pretty clear by now that 99% of audiophiles have never heard a 3d or stereo + surround setup.
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Witchdoctor, thank you for the detailed description. Not sure I'll jump on anything now, but will revisit this when my AVR dies.
In the meantime though, I might rig up something to those "front high" outputs and see what happens.
I think it's just the internal Denon trickery and voodoo, and not anything as fancy as Atmos, Aura, etc...
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Witchdoctor, thank you for the detailed description. Not sure I'll jump on anything now, but will revisit this when my AVR dies.
In the meantime though, I might rig up something to those "front high" outputs and see what happens.
I think it's just the internal Denon trickery and voodoo, and not anything as fancy as Atmos, Aura, etc...
Sure, I hope you can post a pic or two once it is setup.
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They're a bit old, but I've got some pics in my gallery.
Anything I do in the short term will be ugly and not very worthy of a photo. :oops:
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They're a bit old, but I've got some pics in my gallery.
Anything I do in the short term will be ugly and not very worthy of a photo. :oops:
You're a bit old and ugly, BISL, but I've seen your rig and I think it's pretty cool. Snap away!
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:lol: :thumb:
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Bob - there are still some of us left that care more about sound than looks.
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I think the thread title was an excellent model for a good thread, besides interested parties it drew a handful of grumps complaining about the title and yet couldn't help themselves from returning to make a few more posts that added nothing to the conversation but did help the thread grow. It's easy to see how that has become an internet business model.
Now, I still wonder if a sub array would be important and more effective than a single in immersive audio?
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Bob - there are still some of us left that care more about sound than looks.
Absolutely, but the "rig job" would be nothing but wires hanging out in mid-air. :D
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Hah hah!
Well that's a conundrum.
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I think the thread title was an excellent model for a good thread, besides interested parties it drew a handful of grumps complaining about the title and yet couldn't help themselves from returning to make a few more posts that added nothing to the conversation but did help the thread grow. It's easy to see how that has become an internet business model.
Now, I still wonder if a sub array would be important and more effective than a single in immersive audio?
That is an excellent question for the guys at Auro, I only have one sub so couldn't comment.
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Now, I still wonder if a sub array would be important and more effective than a single in immersive audio?
Absolutely yes. The ideal system would have multiple subs being fed specific signals. The PSR demo that I linked (more than once) used 5 full bandwidth (including sub freq) speakers. Humans can detect spatial effects down to as low as 40hz.
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Bob - there are still some of us left that care more about sound than looks.
True, but it's not an sound-or-looks issue. Why not both?
Or it could be a spouse issue. Divorce can put a big dent in the sound budget.... :(
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According to this article on the future of audio:
Over the next 20 to 30 years, 3D sound-field production and design will be one of the biggest growth areas in pro audio. Microphone designers, headphone makers, audio software engineers, and specialized post-production engineers will move from today's X-dot-X (5.1, etc.) paradigm to a seamlessly spherical, object-oriented sound field. If we plot a 3D audio growth chart with a two-year doubling projection, today's $1,000 3D audio solution will enjoy commodity pricing after 2025 combined with 100 times improvement in "spatial and timbral resolution experience" over headphones.
Conservatively, by 2030 we should realize highly realistic immersive audio as part of every low-cost portable device, gaming console, and home entertainment system. And by about 2040, on-ear audio should rival, or exceed, the subjective performance of today's best audiophile rooms and room speakers. Moreover, in a very short time (perhaps 2020?) common commercial music will be routinely mixed in full 3D immersion, and delivered in an open-source format (most likely a derivative of Atmos or Neo).
http://tapeop.com/interviews/100/the-future/
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This is where the puck is going IMO simply because immersive audio is better. I couldn't wait for 20-30 years until it is in every device like the article predicts. However prices have already started to drop on immersive capable receivers since they first came out in 2014. I bought my processor for half off the original MSRP when the next generation processor came out that did 4K. I am not interested in 4K so saved a pile of dough in the process.
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Nice white paper on setting up an Auro 3D home theater:
http://www.stormaudio.com/media/auro3d_home_theater_setup_guidelines_v7_20160119__014413500_1118_11082016.pdf
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Bob Stuart's opinion:
S&V: What to you think about the new object-based sound formats, Dolby Atmos, or Auro-3D?
Stuart: I think they’re better than we’ve had before because they have height. But there’s always been very good technology for that in the Ambisonic technology. Auro-3D gives the highest resolution in 3D sound.
So Bob Stuart agrees with me. The guy sells a TON of two channel gear yet clearly states he prefers adding height channels, go Bob :thumb:
Maybe they will add an Auro3D processor soon to go with the MQA dac.
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Maybe talk to Mr. Stuart about an industry wide cable that works across all brands. Something that isn't proprietary, and doesn't have a specific direction of insertion or polarity, ie; it can go in ether way, unlike USB and HDMI.
Thank you, and you're welcome.
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Maybe talk to Mr. Stuart about an industry wide cable that works across all brands. Something that isn't proprietary, and doesn't have a specific direction of insertion or polarity, ie; it can go in ether way, unlike USB and HDMI.
Thank you, and you're welcome.
NP, next time we do lunch I remind him (LOL) :lol:
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Now Sennheiser is getting into immersive audio with AMBEO technology:
http://en-de.sennheiser.com/news-shape-the-future-of-audio
and Pink Floyd is on board the 3D immersive audio train with them:
http://hometheaterhifi.com/press-releases/sennheiser-pink-floyd-create-unique-immersive-live-8-mix/
The AMBEO in home speaker layout is the same as Auro 3D FWIW. The layout for the demo with Pink Floyd is more similar to an Auro layout for a movie theater.
“Pink Floyd has worked with Sennheiser and Neumann microphones throughout their career. To come back to the Abbey Road studios to jointly work with the AMBEO 3D audio technology is a very special part within this collaboration”, said co-CEO Daniel Sennheiser. “3D audio is the new frontier of sound excellence, set to transform the listening experience for users. We are very happy to bring that special audio experience to The Pink Floyd Exhibition”, adds Dr Andreas Sennheiser."
Yo, me, Bob Stuart and Pink Floyd all chose immeresive audio for the same reason, its better! What's your excuse?
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NP, next time we do lunch I remind him (LOL) :lol:
Cool, thanks man. Might want to see if you can get Mr. Lucas on bored with the idea. 8)
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Check this out, I never knew my condo looks like the recording studio at Abbey Road where they mix 3D audio for Pink Floyd. The same stands, same type of speakers, they even have a VOG channel!! Listen to Abbey Road engineer Simon Rhodes at 50 seconds into the video. He says he has been working in 5.1 for many years then 7.1. Now he is working in full immersion going back to stereo is impossible.
At 4 minutes in, "Once you heard it, you never want to go back". That explains how I feel perfectly and why I think this should be something everyone should try. OK, don't believe a witchdoctor, I get it. But Pink Floyd and Abbey Road? I would think they are reliable. The guy says listening to Pink Floyd in immersive audio is like hearing it for the first time. Yep!!!
https://youtu.be/yMlFN8V4qW4
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Yo, Witchdoctor Studios and Abbey Road, I like it :thumb:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161688)
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Cool, thanks man. Might want to see if you can get Mr. Lucas on bored with the idea. 8)
Doh, I gotta call him back :duh:
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Check this out, I never knew my condo looks like the recording studio at Abbey Road where they mix 3D audio for Pink Floyd. The same stands, same type of speakers, they even have a VOG channel!! Listen to Abbey Road engineer Simon Rhodes at 50 seconds into the video. He says he has been working in 5.1 for many years then 7.1. Now he is working in full immersion going back to stereo is impossible.
At 4 minutes in, "Once you heard it, you never want to go back". That explains how I feel perfectly and why I think this should be something everyone should try. OK, don't believe a witchdoctor, I get it. But Pink Floyd and Abbey Road? I would think they are reliable. The guy says listening to Pink Floyd in immersive audio is like hearing it for the first time. Yep!!!
https://youtu.be/yMlFN8V4qW4
Why did they go from 5.1 to 7.1 to 9.1 to 10.1 and even a 11.1 claiming with each increase in channels equals better/more immersed sound? Does more speakers mean more immersed or better surround sound? If that is the case one could make a 25.1 or even a 50.1 channel receiver for the ultimate in immersed sound. When is enough speakers enough speakers? I can understand the need for more speakers in BIGGER ROOMS but for the average joe with the average size listening room be it living room or bedroom needing 11 speakers is kind of over kill. I would not be surprised if by the end of the year someone will make a 12.1 or 13.1 channel receiver claiming the next best thing in the audio industry. :lol:
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Why did they go from 5.1 to 7.1 to 9.1 to 10.1 and even a 11.1 claiming with each increase in channels equals better/more immersed sound? Does more speakers mean more immersed or better surround sound? If that is the case one could make a 25.1 or even a 50.1 channel receiver for the ultimate in immersed sound. When is enough speakers enough speakers? I can understand the need for more speakers in BIGGER ROOMS but for the average joe with the average size listening room be it living room or bedroom needing 11 speakers is kind of over kill. I would not be surprised if by the end of the year someone will make a 12.1 or 13.1 channel receiver claiming the next best thing is audio industry. :lol:
Excellent questions. I can only share my experience. More speakers doesn't mean more improvement per se.
I know some of those DSP things like jaxx club or cathedral on my Sunfire Processor never sounded "better" to my taste just because they added channels. I think it is the algorithm that makes the difference. Atmos and Auro both have height channels. I think Atmos is more for movie effects while Auro is does both movies and music. I don't like music upmixed in Atmos, regardless of additional speakers. 11 of the wrong speakers is overkill. 11 of the right speakers for your room are great. Speakers come in all sizes so I wouldn't get brain lock over it.
For example Tekton Pendragons are fine speakers but I couldn'tfit even one of them in my room. Paradigm Active 40's are about 24 inches tall and I fit six of them quite nicely as bed channels. I could have fit 6 Millenia's and attached them right on the wall even easier. Yet I still could not fit even one Tekton Pendragon. There are enough choises in speakers today that it shouldn't be too difficult. I would love to have 8 subs like Abbey road but just need to setlle for one. You work with your room, that's all. There are even on wall speakers today that hang like a picture. If you decide to try it you will find a way, no worries. Like the Abbey Road engineers say, listening to music in immersive is like hearing it for the first time and no way would you want to go back to 2 channel (although you can just by pushing a button on your remote) :D
My 7.1 system lasted for 15 years before I needed to get more speakers. I envision my current setup lasting at least for the next 15 years unless they invent a speaker that is a carpet.:)
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For music, especially upmixed from stereo, you don't need anywhere near 11 channels.
2 good stereo fronts (which I assume most here already have), 2 front heights and then 2 upward firing rears, should give full immersion. Maybe a voice of god above. These are still all "effects" channels outside the mains. As long as they don't distort, a wide variety of speakers can be used.
11 channels is for movies with discrete effects, i.e. Golum speaking over your shoulder etc.
For the sound of a concert hall, there is no need for 11 discrete, especially simulated.
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Here is a chance to try Auro 3D with 0 additional speakers... put on a set of headphones and try this:
https://www.facebook.com/Auro3D/videos/vb.214596845243373/1230780746958306/?type=2&theater
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Here is a nice example of a high WAF Auro 3D setup:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1507772645908714&set=p.1507772645908714&type=3&theater
Look how discrete the height channels are in this shot:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1644298042264994&set=p.1644298042264994&type=3&theater
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Cool looking rooms, and certainly a "minimalist" approach to a multi-channel system.
Although, that headphone video.... I don't have any headphones, so I'm not hearing what I'm supposed to be hearing.
But I have heard some ambiophonic recordings (linked from this forum) that blew me away on my modest PC speakers.
Now... I'm a multi-channel kinda guy, buy when you can have better sound from two cheap PC speakers than I can from my "mega-system", then that tells me one thing.
That "somebody" is withholding tech and/or big business isn't allowing me to have it. Why doesn't everything have this kind of soundstage with my two speakers, and why can't my x.x system match that?
Kinda makes me mad.
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Cool looking rooms, and certainly a "minimalist" approach to a multi-channel system.
Although, that headphone video.... I don't have any headphones, so I'm not hearing what I'm supposed to be hearing.
But I have heard some ambiophonic recordings (linked from this forum) that blew me away on my modest PC speakers.
Now... I'm a multi-channel kinda guy, buy when you can have better sound from two cheap PC speakers than I can from my "mega-system", then that tells me one thing.
That "somebody" is withholding tech and/or big business isn't allowing me to have it. Why doesn't everything have this kind of soundstage with my two speakers, and why can't my x.x system match that?
Kinda makes me mad.
I never jumped on the SACD approach because I was too cheap to spend $30 a pop on the discs. But with all of the content available via streaming and I can just upmix I felt was a good value. As for cheap speakers prices keep coming down with SQ getting better. Dacs you can get today for $500 today rival $5000 dacs from 5 years or so ago.
It is getting better albeit a lot slower than the progress in video.
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I never jumped on the SACD approach because I was too cheap to spend $30 a pop on the discs. But with all of the content available via streaming and I can just upmix I felt was a good value. As for cheap speakers prices keep coming down with SQ getting better. Dacs you can get today for $500 today rival $5000 dacs from 5 years or so ago.
It is getting better albeit a lot slower than the progress in video.
Uhhmmmm Ya got me there. :scratch:
I wasn't talking about SACD, DACs, discs, or streaming.
I was talking about what is capable of coming out of two speakers (ambiophonics) and being more impressive from a surround standpoint than "regular' two channel or multi-channel.
Have you heard ambio?
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Uhhmmmm Ya got me there. :scratch:
I wasn't talking about SACD, DACs, discs, or streaming.
I was talking about what is capable of coming out of two speakers (ambiophonics) and being more impressive from a surround standpoint than "regular' two channel or multi-channel.
Have you heard ambio?
No, I can't say I have. The closest I have come to an ambio experience is Bob Carver's Sonic Holography which I use in my desk top system. I know it is a poor comparison but its the closest I could use as an example.
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No, I can't say I have. The closest I have come to an ambio experience is Bob Carver's Sonic Holography which I use in my desk top system. I know it is a poor comparison but its the closest I could use as an example.
I think you'll like this. Although, sadly, the demos links are dead. So I guess you'll have to use your imagination about how great they sound.
- >>HERE<< (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=60814.0#top)
and
- >>HERE<< (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=49710.msg445935#top)
There's a lot of reading material there. Let me know when you're finished.
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I think you'll like this. Although, sadly, the demos links are dead. So I guess you'll have to use your imagination about how great they sound.
- >>HERE<< (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=60814.0#top)
and
- >>HERE<< (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=49710.msg445935#top)
There's a lot of reading material there. Let me know when you're finished.
Thanks, is there software to download to try it?
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Thanks, is there software to download to try it?
No, none at all. Just two two speakers and the ability to play stereo.
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Just an observation from someone who has had surround sound in systems since around 1980 or a bit before (when I was 5 yrs. old of course :green:). I currently have a bunch of systems. Some two channel and some combined multi-channel and 2-channel, including the main system where I run 11.1 or 7.1.4 (in Atmos terms). A big part of it is set-up. Looking at the pic of the OP system, it appears to be something optimized for surround sound and the manner of the set-up probably is not conducive to hearing a top notch 2-channel demo. Conversely, my systems are set-up as two channel that happen to do multi-channel very well, however, they are not optimized for that and it would be hard to do an apples to apples comparison. I've not heard an immersive surround system (including at shows) for music that would be something to make me shift my priorities. Probably a couple of times a year, I'll listen to multi-channel DSD files on one system and while it is something that I enjoy for that listening period, my preference is still a good two channel system.
In my old house, the main system had 4 Rel subs (for years) in it mainly for bass management for multi-channel music and I dispensed with that in the new place, mainly due to the fact that multi-channel music is not of much interest to me (also room layout) vs. what I get from two channel is more satisfying musically. So I use two Rel subs for music and have a separate big sub for HT (had lightning damage so Fedex just dropped off a big box with a Power Sound Audio sub). Way back in the day I also had a friend who worked at a high end shop and did tons of installs and deliveries over a 6 year period. Have never heard anything I preferred in multi-channel other than it is nice to have a novelty change of pace once in a while. To each their own.
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(when I was 5 yrs. old of course :green:)
What a youngster!
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My HT rig is setup for immersive audio more than two channel although I made sure to use a tape measure to get my front speakers the exact same distance from the MLP.
My desktop rig is where I do most of my two channel listening.
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My HT rig is setup for immersive audio more than two channel although I made sure to use a tape measure to get my front speakers the exact same distance from the MLP.
My desktop rig is where I do most of my two channel listening.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161746)
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Thanks OP and AJ for those links, I'm finally checking them out.
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Just an observation from someone who has had surround sound in systems since around 1980 or a bit before (when I was 5 yrs. old of course :green:). I currently have a bunch of systems. Some two channel and some combined multi-channel and 2-channel, including the main system where I run 11.1 or 7.1.4 (in Atmos terms). A big part of it is set-up. Looking at the pic of the OP system, it appears to be something optimized for surround sound and the manner of the set-up probably is not conducive to hearing a top notch 2-channel demo. Conversely, my systems are set-up as two channel that happen to do multi-channel very well, however, they are not optimized for that and it would be hard to do an apples to apples comparison. I've not heard an immersive surround system (including at shows) for music that would be something to make me shift my priorities. Probably a couple of times a year, I'll listen to multi-channel DSD files on one system and while it is something that I enjoy for that listening period, my preference is still a good two channel system.
In my old house, the main system had 4 Rel subs (for years) in it mainly for bass management for multi-channel music and I dispensed with that in the new place, mainly due to the fact that multi-channel music is not of much interest to me (also room layout) vs. what I get from two channel is more satisfying musically. So I use two Rel subs for music and have a separate big sub for HT (had lightning damage so Fedex just dropped off a big box with a Power Sound Audio sub). Way back in the day I also had a friend who worked at a high end shop and did tons of installs and deliveries over a 6 year period. Have never heard anything I preferred in multi-channel other than it is nice to have a novelty change of pace once in a while. To each their own.
Honest good experience. For me movies only.
charles
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I was checking out the upcoming immersive audio demo at High End Munich from Storm Audio:
http://www.stormaudio.com/en/news/
and noticed they are using active speakers from Ascendo Immersive Audio. These speakers are designed for immersive audio from the ground up, are thin and can be used on wall, go down to 55 HZ. and can be connected via ethernet (say what?).
If anyone has opinions on these speakers I would love to hear them.
https://www.facebook.com/audioandcinemasystems/videos/1830995917149503/
http://aia-cinema.com/products/loudspeakers/
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Can you describe the immersive audio soundstage, specifically how it relates to 2 channel stereo? For example the stereo soundstage has depth, width, and height with a recreation of hall ambiance on good recordings. Again on good recordings, images are placed logically within that soundstage as if you were at the recording venue. Does immersive audio provide this and more, or is it something different?
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Dan, does your preamp have more than one output? Or do you have a pair of y-cables?
If so, I've already linked a very inexpensive way to answer all questions for oneself, no virtual guesswork.
cheers,
AJ
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Can you describe the immersive audio soundstage, specifically how it relates to 2 channel stereo? For example the stereo soundstage has depth, width, and height with a recreation of hall ambiance on good recordings. Again on good recordings, images are placed logically within that soundstage as if you were at the recording venue. Does immersive audio provide this and more, or is it something different?
When I listen to a nice two channel setup I like a nice sound stage that extends left and right, front and back. If that is all I ever experienced it would be satisfying, compared to only having one speaker playing mono like a radio. I found when I added a vertical sound stage that also extends from floor to ceiling you could pinpoint the musicians in a natural sense. The height of the piano, the microphone for the singer, fingers moving up and down the frets of a standup bass. The funny thing is in an auro3d setup you cannot localize any of the speakers unless you put your ears right up to them.
The codec matters a lot in my room for music upmixing. I prefer Auro 3D over Atmos. For movies i like both but Auro is more dynamic for upmixing. If a movie has an atmos soundtrack I prefer Atmos.
I think the engineers at Abbey Road do a good job describing immersive audio in this clip. In a nutshell once you experience a good immersive setup you can't go back. The speaker layout they use for Sennheisers AMBEO codec at Abbey Road is the same layout used for Auro3D:
https://youtu.be/yMlFN8V4qW4
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For anyone else who wants to try immersive audio get yourself down to a movie theater and watch a movie mixed in atmos or auro 3d:
http://www.regmovies.com/Theatres/auro
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I found when I added a vertical sound stage that also extends from floor to ceiling you could pinpoint the musicians in a natural sense. The height of the piano, the microphone for the singer, fingers moving up and down the frets of a standup bass. The funny thing is in an auro3d setup you cannot localize any of the speakers unless you put your ears right up to them.
I actually have that in my stereo setup, there is a significant vertical component and I can't locate the speakers unless I walk up to them. From the video it seems as though they were more interested in special effects than producing a realistic soundstage with added ambience. I wouldn't want to be in the middle of the performance, I want to hear it as if I'm in the audience with the added channels producing the sound of the hall. I couldn't get this from the ancient 5.1 systems I had years ago, at least for music programs, so I went back to stereo sound. If it sounded like enhanced stereo I could be interested, if it's 10' high drum sets (as described in the video) I'm out.
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I actually have that in my stereo setup, there is a significant vertical component and I can't locate the speakers unless I walk up to them. From the video it seems as though they were more interested in special effects than producing a realistic soundstage with added ambience. I wouldn't want to be in the middle of the performance, I want to hear it as if I'm in the audience with the added channels producing the sound of the hall. I couldn't get this from the ancient 5.1 systems I had years ago, at least for music programs, so I went back to stereo sound. If it sounded like enhanced stereo I could be interested, if it's 10' high drum sets (as described in the video) I'm out.
The performers are in the front of the room, it doesn't sound like you are in the middle. I didn't like 5.1 or 7.1 for music as much as I did two channel. I doubt I can convey with words, do you have a set of headphones? If so their are some immersive audio headphone tracks I can post. I can't say it is the same as speakers but at least you can compare two channel headphone tracks to immersive tracks.
I think trying to convey an immersive sound stage with terms used to describe 2 channel is very limiting. I can post a couple links that go into more details if you are interested:
https://youtu.be/iZ8gX3ARPUM
https://youtu.be/yaiSRWqEG8w
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If immersive audio is one's thing, there are several things from places like AIX records (e.g. http://www.aixrecords.com/catalog/bd_3d/mozart_bd_3d.html) that have a surround and also a stage mix (like one is in the center of the players) - http://www.aixrecords.com/catalog/bd_3d/mozart_bd_3d.html
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I actually have that in my stereo setup, there is a significant vertical component and I can't locate the speakers unless I walk up to them.
The same here in both of the two-channel systems I use for "serious" listening, and that's largely because I've treated both less-than-ideal rooms to deal with standing wave, speaker boundary interference, and other reflection issues. No "glued to the middle" sweet spot here.
Jim
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I want to hear it as if I'm in the audience with the added channels producing the sound of the hall. I couldn't get this from the ancient 5.1 systems I had years ago, at least for music programs, so I went back to stereo sound.
All >4ch upmixers I've heard so far are poor, at least compared to stereo. They all had a negative effect on the main LR channels.
At this point its painfully obvious no one here has heard stereo+ mch.
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So I watched John Wick today using the Dolby Surround Atmos upmixer, really nice, much better than 7.1 surround. Then I did a comparison with Auro 3D and Auro 3D was MUCH more dynamic. I think it is because I have my upmix settings turned up all the way it really enhances that sense of immersion. With Atmos you can't adjust how much you engage the height channels. The other thing I noticed was that the third layer with Auro using the voice of god channel really makes a big difference with things like thunder claps, fly overs and the like. It is almost like the ceiling opens up above you.
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If anyone is looking to add height channels take a look at these SVS Elevation speakers-
https://youtu.be/5OZFgpsZQFM
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The PSR demo that I linked (more than once) used 5 full bandwidth (including sub freq) speakers. Humans can detect spatial effects down to as low as 40hz.
well, obviously I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer :roll: :oops:
But could you direct me to that link. thanks. :D
FWIW, an acquaintance at SEA RANCH has a Pluto/thor surround system and
plans to purchase a refurbished Denon he's working on the height channel implementation
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I think making one bad and one good is overly simplistic. If music is well recorded and played back on a good system - there is no issue with spacial imaging. By the same token the opposite can be true.
On to movie reproduction whether home or a theater - having the appropriate number of front channels whether 2, 3 or 5 reproduces the intended mix. Add sides and rears as well as Atmos ceiling speakers to match room size and it can be a spectacular experience. (Don't forget figuring out how many subs to put in the room!)
I had a Lexicon preamp and enjoyed a lot of music in the music surround mode. I also enjoy music in 2 channel stereo. I have a small theater with no center as well as a larger reference room with a full complement of speakers. I guess what I'm trying to say is that 2 channel doesn't suck. It can provide an immersive experience.
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well, obviously I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer :roll: :oops:
But could you direct me to that link. thanks. :D
The PSR link?
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=9136 (http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=9136)
http://www.onhifi.com/features/20010615.htm (http://www.onhifi.com/features/20010615.htm)
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I think making one bad and one good is overly simplistic. If music is well recorded and played back on a good system - there is no issue with spacial imaging. By the same token the opposite can be true.
On to movie reproduction whether home or a theater - having the appropriate number of front channels whether 2, 3 or 5 reproduces the intended mix. Add sides and rears as well as Atmos ceiling speakers to match room size and it can be a spectacular experience. (Don't forget figuring out how many subs to put in the room!)
I had a Lexicon preamp and enjoyed a lot of music in the music surround mode. I also enjoy music in 2 channel stereo. I have a small theater with no center as well as a larger reference room with a full complement of speakers. I guess what I'm trying to say is that 2 channel doesn't suck. It can provide an immersive experience.
First of all thank you for contributing to this thread, and IMO you could build a state of the art immersive system with Evoke Speakers. 5 Evoke Eddie's as bed channels and 5 Evoke Ruby's as height channels would be amazing. I have to agree that two channels doesn't suck when compared to a typical 5.1 or 7.1 "surround" system. In fact many people with surround still prefer two channels for music. Immersing yourself by adding a vertical soundfield is completely different from surround.
IMO Auro 3D and Sennheiser AMBEO are designed for music first, HT second. Atmos and DTS-X just the opposite. I hope you get to experience it with your speakers as I described. I would not recommend towers in the L-R position. With 10.1 surround you just don't need it.
The engineers at Abbey Road studio mixing immersive audio for Pink Floyd's new show in London describe it as once you hear immersive you can never go back.
I think that is a more politically correct way of saying they couldn't go back to two channels because it sucks in comparison, but it doesn't mean you can't enjoy it. But given the choice of the two you know how Pink Floyd and Abbey Road voted...
Check out Abbey Road_
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMlFN8V4qW4
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First of all thank you for contributing to this thread, and IMO you could build a state of the art immersive system with Evoke Speakers. 5 Evoke Eddie's as bed channels and 5 Evoke Ruby's as height channels would be amazing. I have to agree that two channels doesn't suck when compared to a typical 5.1 or 7.1 "surround" system. In fact many people with surround still prefer two channels for music. Immersing yourself by adding a vertical soundfield is completely different from surround.
IMO Auro 3D and Sennheiser AMBEO are designed for music first, HT second. Atmos and DTS-X just the opposite. I hope you get to experience it with your speakers as I described. I would not recommend towers in the L-R position. With 10.1 surround you just don't need it.
The engineers at Abbey Road studio mixing immersive audio for Pink Floyd's new show in London describe it as once you hear immersive you can never go back.
I think that is a more politically correct way of saying they couldn't go back to two channels because it sucks in comparison, but it doesn't mean you can't enjoy it. But given the choice of the two you know how Pink Floyd and Abbey Road voted...
Check out Abbey Road_
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMlFN8V4qW4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMlFN8V4qW4)
OK - the Abbey Road system is a complete wet dream. No two ways about it. I think there is something very satisfying to do something that pushes every boundary of technology and perfection. Not because you have to, necessarily, but to say that you did it. I had a client once that wanted a good listening room in his home. He had a very large room / basement. I told him that the problem was the ceiling - it was 8'. He asked me what he should do. I told him that if it were double there would be a lot of room to get creative with the room. I laughed as it seemed insane. He called me later that year. He dug down and added 8' to the room. Well, the room turned out great. How fun is that.
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OK - the Abbey Road system is a complete wet dream. No two ways about it. I think there is something very satisfying to do something that pushes every boundary of technology and perfection. Not because you have to, necessarily, but to say that you did it. I had a client once that wanted a good listening room in his home. He had a very large room / basement. I told him that the problem was the ceiling - it was 8'. He asked me what he should do. I told him that if it were double there would be a lot of room to get creative with the room. I laughed as it seemed insane. He called me later that year. He dug down and added 8' to the room. Well, the room turned out great. How fun is that.
My current bed channels are about the same size as the Evoke Eddies but they are heavier because they are Active and have a 150 watt amp and a 50 watt amp inside. I have the front L-R channels mounted low using Mapleshade Bedrock stands, the rear channels use traditional stands and the matching center channel is also active and mounted on a Mapleshade isolation system. My height channels are also active and much heavier than the Ruby's so I use the same stands you see at Abbey Road because of the weight. The Ruby could be wall mounted with a bracket NP. I use an Auro 3D speaker layout as does Abbey Road. Atmos sounds just fine through this speaker layout. I upmix just about everything using the Auromatic upmixer so encoded software is not an issue. I think you have a GREAT market for immersive audio, it is not going away as far as I can tell:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162647)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162648)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162649)
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My current bed channels are about the same size as the Evoke Eddies but they are heavier because they are Active and have a 150 watt amp and a 50 watt amp inside. I have the front L-R channels mounted low using Mapleshade Bedrock stands, the rear channels use traditional stands and the matching center channel is also active and mounted on a Mapleshade isolation system. My height channels are also active and much heavier than the Ruby's so I use the same stands you see at Abbey Road because of the weight. The Ruby could be wall mounted with a bracket NP. I use an Auro 3D speaker layout as does Abbey Road. Atmos sounds just fine through this speaker layout. I upmix just about everything using the Auromatic upmixer so encoded software is not an issue. I think you have a GREAT market for immersive audio, it is not going away as far as I can tell:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162647)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162648)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162649)
That's quite a setup -- and a big commitment to a dedicated space! I'm wondering what thoughts you have had about room reflections. Have you experimented? Personally, I can appreciate a "dead" room. John Casler has that and it truly reveals a lot. I tend to go for the LEDE concept - Live End Dead End. Or more loosely 50% absorb, 50% reflect. i.e. Carpet on the floor / leave the ceiling alone. With a flat screen up front in the middle - treat the walls on either side. Treat the walls on either side of the listening position and the entire back wall. For me - this helps with time smear, improves imaging, yet keeps some of the rooms live aspect to it. When I'm experimenting with a room - before I commit to the money - I have a bunch of cheap memory foam mattresses and moving blankets. Moving them around really helps to get an initial idea of what works. Yea, I know, there are very precise scientific methods to work this out. I use them too. But this is a great inexpensive method and fun too. :D
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That's quite a setup -- and a big commitment to a dedicated space! I'm wondering what thoughts you have had about room reflections. Have you experimented? Personally, I can appreciate a "dead" room. John Casler has that and it truly reveals a lot. I tend to go for the LEDE concept - Live End Dead End. Or more loosely 50% absorb, 50% reflect. i.e. Carpet on the floor / leave the ceiling alone. With a flat screen up front in the middle - treat the walls on either side. Treat the walls on either side of the listening position and the entire back wall. For me - this helps with time smear, improves imaging, yet keeps some of the rooms live aspect to it. When I'm experimenting with a room - before I commit to the money - I have a bunch of cheap memory foam mattresses and moving blankets. Moving them around really helps to get an initial idea of what works. Yea, I know, there are very precise scientific methods to work this out. I use them too. But this is a great inexpensive method and fun too. :D
Thank you. The speaker stands are what take up the space. My front L-R channels are much smaller than traditional towers like the Eddies. When you mount the height channels high on the wall instead of using stands they blend in much more discreetly. I used to use Eighth Nerve room treatment but then I moved. There is an acousitician locally with all those instruments to measure the room I want to bring in as my next "upgrade". Here is how I would install the Ruby:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162654)
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and maybe the back of the room like this:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162655)
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Thank you. The speaker stands are what take up the space. My front L-R channels are much smaller than traditional towers like the Eddies. When you mount the height channels high on the wall instead of using stands they blend in much more discreetly. I used to use Eighth Nerve room treatment but then I moved. There is an acousitician locally with all those instruments to measure the room I want to bring in as my next "upgrade". Here is how I would install the Ruby:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=162654)
Looks really nice. What kind of SPLs do you push with in your room? Eddie for example is full range unless you have aggressive organ music or LFE effects. Similarly, Ruby is a good performer into the 40's depending on placement. When pushed in the low end, the volume needs reduced or the shorting rings do their thing for the woofer. Good protection. No damage. Sounds awful LOL... We've used Ruby with a sub as a main music system and it's seriously wonderful... I'm leaning toward REL subwoofers. Not sure if I want to compete in that market. Time will tell... So in a home theater situation, rolling off at 80hz (typically 24db/oct on processors) to subs or LFE channels should work really well. The woofer is almost 90db efficient BEFORE adding the crossover which is pretty complex - hence affects efficiency. So you can get volume with some power. The tweeter is VERY efficient. You're unlikely to run out of headroom there!
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Looks really nice. What kind of SPLs do you push with in your room? Eddie for example is full range unless you have aggressive organ music or LFE effects. Similarly, Ruby is a good performer into the 40's depending on placement. When pushed in the low end, the volume needs reduced or the shorting rings do their thing for the woofer. Good protection. No damage. Sounds awful LOL... We've used Ruby with a sub as a main music system and it's seriously wonderful... I'm leaning toward REL subwoofers. Not sure if I want to compete in that market. Time will tell... So in a home theater situation, rolling off at 80hz (typically 24db/oct on processors) to subs or LFE channels should work really well. The woofer is almost 90db efficient BEFORE adding the crossover which is pretty complex - hence affects efficiency. So you can get volume with some power. The tweeter is VERY efficient. You're unlikely to run out of headroom there!
I crossover at 80hz to my sub and typically listen at 80-90 db. On some films I may get peaks as high as 100 db. I think you could use Ruby's all around NP in a 9 or 10.1 system for a combination of high SQ and high WAF.
If someone already has a 5.1 system two pairs of Ruby's as height channels and they would be all set. The top surround or "Voice of God" channel is optional.
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The PSR link?
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=9136 (http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=9136)
http://www.onhifi.com/features/20010615.htm (http://www.onhifi.com/features/20010615.htm)
Thanks, I guess I looked over all the links.
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For those of you wanting an easy entry into immersive audio SVS Prime Elvations look like an excellent choice:
http://www.avsforum.com/svs-sound-prime-elevation-speakers-review/
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Sgt Peppers now available in immersive audio via Dolby Atmos.
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Another example of how 2 channel sucks compared to immersive audio. This guy that wrote the article below didn't even bother with a 5.1 system, he just added two height channels to his stereo and switched on the Dolby Surround upmixer. The end result? regular 2 channel sucked in comparison. He says:
The main thing I learned in this process is that, to my ears, pure 2-channel sound was never as good as 2-channel sound with Atmos-enabled speakers and Dolby Surround ambience extraction. Each end every time I compared the two, the improved sense of space the height and ambience was there.
For all you guys with a stereo this is easy to do. In the article the guy even used those wacky upfiring atmos speakers... and it still sounded better than stereo. Before you spend a dime on your next upgrade do yourself a favor and get "immersed".
http://www.avsforum.com/i-used-dolby-atmos-enabled-speakers-in-a-2-2-2-system-heres-what-happened/
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Another example of how 2 channel sucks compared to immersive audio. This guy that wrote the article below didn't even bother with a 5.1 system, he just added two height channels to his stereo and switched on the Dolby Surround upmixer. The end result? regular 2 channel sucked in comparison. He says:
The main thing I learned in this process is that, to my ears, pure 2-channel sound was never as good as 2-channel sound with Atmos-enabled speakers and Dolby Surround ambience extraction. Each end every time I compared the two, the improved sense of space the height and ambience was there.
For all you guys with a stereo this is easy to do. In the article the guy even used those wacky upfiring atmos speakers... and it still sounded better than stereo. Before you spend a dime on your next upgrade do yourself a favor and get "immersed".
http://www.avsforum.com/i-used-dolby-atmos-enabled-speakers-in-a-2-2-2-system-heres-what-happened/ (http://www.avsforum.com/i-used-dolby-atmos-enabled-speakers-in-a-2-2-2-system-heres-what-happened/)
Going to start a fire storm here. I go back to SQ quad and a few other formats that never made it. Even back then binaural was better than any of them could have hoped to attain. The truth is that ATMOS is the newest toy on the block and most mixes are not designed to disappear into the creative of the film but rather to show off. If you ask Gene Roddenberry about Star Trek - the idea was to sell the story. The effects should not take away from that. The same is true in any film. So if the effects - either visual or audio are the star then the film is flawed. Mind you who cares if you are watching "Transformers". But even recently with the magnificent new Pirates film - the story was the star and the CGI and audio were great cast members who played their roles beautifully.
That said, 2 channel doesn't suck. Now - if you want to discuss playback systems - I would not contest that ever. Many 2 channel playback systems suck more than imaginable. But I can tell you that there are some that image far left, right, high, low, front, back and even behind you. So it really isn't 2 channels that are the problem. Simultaneously, I've heard some horrible systems with 5 front channels multiple front and side subs with full ATMOS configurations. Any system can be good or bad. It's the source material, the gear, the person designing the room. Any one can destroy it or make it great. I just can't get behind the sweeping generalization that 2 channel sucks.
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Another example of how 2 channel sucks compared to immersive audio. This guy that wrote the article below didn't even bother with a 5.1 system, he just added two height channels to his stereo and switched on the Dolby Surround upmixer. The end result? regular 2 channel sucked in comparison. He says:
The main thing I learned in this process is that, to my ears, pure 2-channel sound was never as good as 2-channel sound with Atmos-enabled speakers and Dolby Surround ambience extraction. Each end every time I compared the two, the improved sense of space the height and ambience was there.
For all you guys with a stereo this is easy to do. In the article the guy even used those wacky upfiring atmos speakers... and it still sounded better than stereo. Before you spend a dime on your next upgrade do yourself a favor and get "immersed".
http://www.avsforum.com/i-used-dolby-atmos-enabled-speakers-in-a-2-2-2-system-heres-what-happened/
That article seemed intriguing, peaking my interest to further understand dolbyatmos technology.
The author seems to favor the upward facing/firing (reflective sound) speaker modules for dolby atmos OVER inwall or ceiling speakers....so my question is which one is better the traditional dolby atmos speaker modules that face up wards and reflects the sound off the ceilings or speakers placed fairly high up and or ceiling speakers that directly radiate the sound downwards?
He also states that >The uncanny effect of Dolby Surround upmixing was to create the illusion of listening to larger, taller speakers....why not just get larger taller speakers for 2 channel set up like some huge planars or open baffle speakers if that is the case?
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That article seemed intriguing, peaking my interest to further understand dolbyatmos technology.
The author seems to favor the upward facing/firing (reflective sound) speaker modules for dolby atmos OVER inwall or ceiling speakers....so my question is which one is better the traditional dolby atmos speaker modules that face up wards and reflects the sound off the ceilings or speakers placed fairly high up and or ceiling speakers that directly radiate the sound downwards?
He also states that >The uncanny effect of Dolby Surround upmixing was to create the illusion of listening to larger, taller speakers....why not just get larger taller speakers for 2 channel set up like some huge planars or open baffle speakers if that is the case?
The Klipsch speakers he used are pretty large. Dolby Surround upmixing uses an algorithm and selects what sounds to send to the ceiling, something a large speaker can't do.
I have a setup with height channels high near the ceiling angled downward. I have not tried the upfiring Dolby Atmos enabled ones. I think it is probably better to test the atmos enabled speakers in this setup before cutting holes in the ceiling. You can get a pair of Onkyo Atmos enabled speakers at accessories4less.com for $100. That is a pretty low risk way to test it out and see if you like it. At the same vendor you can get Focal Bird speakers which can be mounted on the wall or the ceiling without cutting holes if you want to go that route:
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/category/atmos/speakers/atmos-speakers/1.html
If you want a nicer pair of Dolby Atmos enabled these Klipsch are supposed to be nice:
https://www.amazon.com/Klipsch-RP-140SA-Dolby-Atmos-Speaker/dp/B00ZIQZBTG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499000071&sr=8-1&keywords=atmos
Denon has a receiver that you could use for the setup desribed in the article for $250.
https://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-S720W-Channel-Receiver-Bluetooth/dp/B01CRYWWFC/ref=sr_1_6?s=tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1499000138&sr=1-6&keywords=atmos
So to test out the setup in the article on the cheap you could get the Onkyo speakers and the Denon receiver, $350 all together. If you like what you hear you could experiment with different Atmos speakers.
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You are a fool who never had a high end 2 channel system properly set up. Your speakers/your room are a big part of the equation.
MAK
It works for Abbey Road Studios, my setup is virtually the same, even using active speakers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMlFN8V4qW4
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Here are the instructions to setup your room properly for immersive Auro 3D, very easy :thumb:
https://youtu.be/WTjdPWh4qHI
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You are a fool who never had a high end 2 channel system properly set up. Your speakers/your room are a big part of the equation.
MAK
I saw where you posted your system in another thread. Do you own the Genesis 1.2 speakers? $300K for speakers :o?
https://www.higherfi.com/speakers/genesis-12
If so I congratulate you on a pair of fine speakers. However don't you find it frustrating that it costs so much to reproduce sound with only two speakers? I don't doubt the sound is outstanding but I think it is a clear statement on the limitations of two channel rather than the benefit. I am sure it sounds great but look what it takes to build a great two channel system. This can be confirmed by attending any of the high end audio shows. It takes a lot of money to build an excellent two channel system because of its limitations.
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They are using Neumann 420's at Abbey Road but I think the Neumann 120 would be better for home use. These are professional active speakers, no amp or speaker cables required at $700 a piece. You could set up a SOTA Auro 3D Active speaker/amp system for $7K.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/KH120?utm_source=Yahoo&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=recording&utm_term=neumann_kh_120&device=c&matchtype=e&network=s
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I saw where you posted your system in another thread. Do you own the Genesis 1.2 speakers? $300K for speakers :o ?
https://www.higherfi.com/speakers/genesis-12 (https://www.higherfi.com/speakers/genesis-12)
If so I congratulate you on a pair of fine speakers. However don't you find it frustrating that it costs so much to reproduce sound with only two speakers? I don't doubt the sound is outstanding but I think it is a clear statement on the limitations of two channel rather than the benefit. I am sure it sounds great but look what it takes to build a great two channel system. This can be confirmed by attending any of the high end audio shows. It takes a lot of money to build an excellent two channel system because of its limitations.
I have known people to spend large amounts of money on their sound systems. As in any sound venue - the displacement of air is directly related to the cubic volume to the listening space. That's why my office has some small bookshelf speakers whereas my main listening room has larger speakers. As for the extreme end - that can exist in the theater setting as well. I did a system with 5 front channels, 4 sides, 2 rears, 4 ceilings and 3 subs. Each speaker was a custom Hidley/Westlake speaker. Now that is the opposite extreme of a Bose out of the box system to be sure. But I must say the room sounded insanely good.
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They are using Neumann 420's at Abbey Road but I think the Neumann 120 would be better for home use. These are professional active speakers, no amp or speaker cables required at $700 a piece. You could set up a SOTA Auro 3D Active speaker/amp system for $7K.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/KH120?utm_source=Yahoo&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=recording&utm_term=neumann_kh_120&device=c&matchtype=e&network=s (https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/KH120?utm_source=Yahoo&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=recording&utm_term=neumann_kh_120&device=c&matchtype=e&network=s)
Very good point. It's truly amazing with high end microphones. I know a very high end audio engineer. He had a travel case with a number of exotic microphones. When he matched them to a singer or instrument it was as much art as it was science. Looking back it was much like Olivander choosing a wand for Harry Potter!
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I have known people to spend large amounts of money on their sound systems. As in any sound venue - the displacement of air is directly related to the cubic volume to the listening space. That's why my office has some small bookshelf speakers whereas my main listening room has larger speakers. As for the extreme end - that can exist in the theater setting as well. I did a system with 5 front channels, 4 sides, 2 rears, 4 ceilings and 3 subs. Each speaker was a custom Hidley/Westlake speaker. Now that is the opposite extreme of a Bose out of the box system to be sure. But I must say the room sounded insanely good.
I checked out your Ruby speakers online. I think they would be perfect for a multi-channel/immersive setup. I don't use ceiling speakers. You can mount book shelf speakers high on the wall as height channels as long as you get a 15 degree down tilt and they sound great.
Whoever had you make a custom system is very lucky, what could be better than having the designer customize the setup to match your room. Please post pics if you have any, thanks.
You know Ohm speakers actually ask for your room dimensions and then recommend speakers to match your room.
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Very good point. It's truly amazing with high end microphones. I know a very high end audio engineer. He had a travel case with a number of exotic microphones. When he matched them to a singer or instrument it was as much art as it was science. Looking back it was much like Olivander choosing a wand for Harry Potter!
Neumann is more known for their microphones. They did an acquisition to get in the speaker business a while back.
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I checked out your Ruby speakers online. I think they would be perfect for a multi-channel/immersive setup. I don't use ceiling speakers. You can mount book shelf speakers high on the wall as height channels as long as you get a 15 degree down tilt and they sound great.
Whoever had you make a custom system is very lucky, what could be better than having the designer customize the setup to match your room. Please post pics if you have any, thanks.
You know Ohm speakers actually ask for your room dimensions and then recommend speakers to match your room.
Thanks on the Ruby. She actually sounds pretty awesome. I switched back to Alex yesterday. This time with a better processor. Enjoying the larger sound stage. When I did a lot of those systems I wasn't allowed to take pictures (argh) due to clients and their non-disclosure deals which sucked. I'll dig around the old files and see if there is anything I can post. On a funny note - I had a client with a 30 x 50 basement area in a new house. The ceiling was 9'. I told him that wouldn't work. I thought that was that. Some time later he called me back. They dug down another 10 feet. Ahhhh to have that kind of money LOL
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Neumann is more known for their microphones. They did an acquisition to get in the speaker business a while back.
I remember the first time I saw/heard a Neumann. It was almost sexual. The mic is a work of art. It is impossible not to appreciate the enormity of its accomplishments!!! What speaker company did they buy? I hadn't heard about that.
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I remember the first time I saw/heard a Neumann. It was almost sexual. The mic is a work of art. It is impossible not to appreciate the enormity of its accomplishments!!! What speaker company did they buy? I hadn't heard about that.
Klein & Hummel
https://www.recordingmag.com/productreviews/2014/01/84.html
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Nice article on creating an immersive auro 3d system:
https://www.svsound.com/blogs/featured-systems/thomas-from-winter-haven-fl
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So I listened to two channel stereo yesterday for about 1-2 hours, turned off the subwoofer put the Marantz in Pure Direct and just listened. My speakers sound great in stereo, big soundstage, nice bass and if I was not used to auro 3d I would be pretty happy. The first thing I noticed was I had to listen much more loudly than usual to get in the zone. After about 30 minutes I couldn't get over the sensation of music coming from the front wall, like getting hit between the eyes. Now I know why people get "listener fatigue". Auro 3D sounds much more natural allowing me to listen at much lower levels and truly be in the zone. I like two channel for nearfield listening but it just grates on you after about an hour once you are used to an immersive setup in a bigger room.
This experience is mine, I don't expect someone with a different room or different speakers to be exactly the same. I just wanted to share because I was somewhat surprised.
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So I listened to two channel stereo yesterday for about 1-2 hours, turned off the subwoofer put the Marantz in Pure Direct and just listened. My speakers sound great in stereo, big soundstage, nice bass and if I was not used to auro 3d I would be pretty happy. The first thing I noticed was I had to listen much more loudly than usual to get in the zone. After about 30 minutes I couldn't get over the sensation of music coming from the front wall, like getting hit between the eyes. Now I know why people get "listener fatigue". Auro 3D sounds much more natural allowing me to listen at much lower levels and truly be in the zone. I like two channel for nearfield listening but it just grates on you after about an hour once you are used to an immersive setup in a bigger room.
This experience is mine, I don't expect someone with a different room or different speakers to be exactly the same. I just wanted to share because I was somewhat surprised.
I really find your posts frustrating. You don't need to justify your perspective. I had a Lexicon multi-channel pre-amp and it was wonderful. On a lot of music with the right speaker set up the room sounded great in 7.1. At the same time it sounded equally good in 2 channel - and with no fatigue. If you spend the same amount of money on a pre-amp, amp and 2 speakers it would be a fair comparison with your system.
Your system, while very good, isn't what other posters are comparing to. Unless you do the same, you're hypothesis is not fully founded. I highly suggest you do that and then do a followup post.
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I really find your posts frustrating. You don't need to justify your perspective. I had a Lexicon multi-channel pre-amp and it was wonderful. On a lot of music with the right speaker set up the room sounded great in 7.1. At the same time it sounded equally good in 2 channel - and with no fatigue. If you spend the same amount of money on a pre-amp, amp and 2 speakers it would be a fair comparison with your system.
Your system, while very good, isn't what other posters are comparing to. Unless you do the same, you're hypothesis is not fully founded. I highly suggest you do that and then do a followup post.
I see what you mean, a $50K immersive system compared to a $50K 2 channel system is more of an apples to apples comparison, good point.
I know some people have a separate two channel pre-amp in their main rig just for this purpose. I have a Parasound pre-amp I am not using right now, I'll see if I can hook it up to compare.
To be fair though I would really need to get a $2500 pre-amp to make it apples to apples (the Marantz unit is around $2500). Any suggestions?
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You know I have always wanted a Sunfire Classic Tube Pre-Amp, you may have given me an excuse to go find one now.
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So I got the Auro 3D demo disc that has a bunch of music and movie clips. Watching the clips I was surprised to learn that natively mixed Auro 3D sounds exactly like non-natibe content that has been upmixed using the Auromatic processor. Auro 3D is lagging in content releases compared to Atmos. In my system Auro simply sounds better. Glad to know the lack of Auro 3D content is a moot point since the Auromatic upmixer renders non native content so well.
Atmos sounds great with movies but not as transparent and live sounding as Auro on music. Check out this interview with 2L's Morton Lindberg.He staes:
"Stereo is like a flat canvas while Auro 3D is like a sculpture you can move around."
http://www.auro-3d.com/blog/interview-morten-lindberg-on-auro-3d-recorded-music-is-no-longer-a-flat-canvas-but-a-sculpture-you-can-literally-move-around/
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So I got the Auro 3D demo disc that has a bunch of music and movie clips. Watching the clips I was surprised to learn that natively mixed Auro 3D sounds exactly like non-natibe content that has been upmixed using the Auromatic processor. Auro 3D is lagging in content releases compared to Atmos. In my system Auro simply sounds better. Glad to know the lack of Auro 3D content is a moot point since the Auromatic upmixer renders non native content so well.
Atmos sounds great with movies but not as transparent and live sounding as Auro on music. Check out this interview with 2L's Morton Lindberg.He staes:
"Stereo is like a flat canvas while Auro 3D is like a sculpture you can move around."
You make an incredible observation! Availability of material. Back in the day there were 2 quad stereo formats, Beta and VHS, et all, ad nauseum! Dolby took over and better or worse they own the market.
Personally, I prefer to listen to a movie in stereo. With quality speakers you get perfect center and great spacial imaging. In my room I hear sides and rear.
As ATMOS is new - engineers and artists are still "playing" with it and it's obvious - not a seamless part of the canvas as you quote above. Maybe with time they will learn how to use it correctly. In the meantime I could care less if a theater has ATMOS. Worse, a lot of theaters have dropped THX standards and are simply too loud and EQ'd poorly. The other day the right front speaker had a burnt voice coil - sure sounded great ARGH. I emailed the theater chain and they forwarded it to engineering and comped my tickets. I must say - I was surprised !!!
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I'll bet 11 channels of Marantz power + 9 Evoke Ruby speakers in an immersive setup would be absolute heaven. Remember, an Auro3D layout does not require ceiling speakers and works just fine for atmos. The speakers are mounted high on the wall above your bed channels, perfect for the Ruby's:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKoyyxwP9kI
http://evokespeakers.com/ruby/
If you had 5 Eddies as bed channels and 4 Rubies as height channels it would be even better.
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I'll bet 11 channels of Marantz power + 9 Evoke Ruby speakers in an immersive setup would be absolute heaven. Remember, an Auro3D layout does not require ceiling speakers and works just fine for atmos. The speakers are mounted high on the wall above your bed channels, perfect for the Ruby's:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKoyyxwP9kI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKoyyxwP9kI)
http://evokespeakers.com/ruby/ (http://evokespeakers.com/ruby/)
If you had 5 Eddies as bed channels and 4 Rubies as height channels it would be even better.
Thanks, Witchdoctor -
I have experimented with Eddies as LCR and Ruby's for surround. Eddie is pretty much full range as long as there is an LFE sub. I know it sounds odd - but I had an old ULD18 Velodyne laying around for LFE. Using LFE takes the effects out of LCR but still allows the Eddie speakers to run full range. I was really careful when matching the acoustic signature with Ruby - you can certainly use all Ruby's, but the Eddie mains and Ruby surrounds are really something. I hope to do a full demo next year in Newport Beach.
Mark
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Thanks, Witchdoctor -
I have experimented with Eddies as LCR and Ruby's for surround. Eddie is pretty much full range as long as there is an LFE sub. I know it sounds odd - but I had an old ULD18 Velodyne laying around for LFE. Using LFE takes the effects out of LCR but still allows the Eddie speakers to run full range. I was really careful when matching the acoustic signature with Ruby - you can certainly use all Ruby's, but the Eddie mains and Ruby surrounds are really something. I hope to do a full demo next year in Newport Beach.
Mark
I thought it would be a good match. I hope you get the new Marantz unit and set it up for your showroom or home too. In my room Audyssey did a great job integrating the sub/speakers and the room. I think you will be surprised how well the "Pure Direct" mode does two channel when you consider that this receiver is less expensive than a lot of integrated amps or even dedicated 2 channel preamps.
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If you want to build a high WAF immersive audio system use SVS bed channels and the elevation speakers for height channels:
https://www.svsound.com/pages/prime-elevation
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Sgt Peppers now available in immersive audio via Dolby Atmos.
I'd love to hear that!
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That would be me.....
I've thought about it, but it's not really breaking any rules.
As long as folks stay civil, I can't give a legit reason that a multi-channel topic shouldn't stay.
But I do see what you're saying. :lol:
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Could we start a thread on why 2 channel sucks compared to Submersive audio?
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191990)
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Now even the critics agree with the witchdoctor, two channel STILL sucks compared to immersive audio:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/y1562x2ztuffv0o/Widescreen%20Review%20February%202019%20issue.pdf?dl=0
Are you running an immersive system now? How many speakers in the theater room?
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Guys, give it a rest please. Thanks.
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Yeah, my system sucks because it's two channel... Witch Doctor, you just can't play nice with others, can you?
The title of this thread is NOT your system sucks.
It is two channel sucks COMPARED to immersive audio.
Do a blind test in your own room, with your own gear that is level matched and THEN tell me I'm wrong. That is how I came to the this conclusion and every guest that has compared the same way using my system.
My processor sounds fantastic in the 2 channel pure direct mode. I could live happily ever after UNLESS I compared it to the Auromatic mode. Then it just rings hollow.
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Are you running an immersive system now? How many speakers in the theater room?
Hi, in my media room I have a 15.1 system and can use 3 types of immesrive setups:
Auro 3D- 11.1
Atmos- 7.1.4
DTS Neo-X- 9.1.2
I did not upgrade from Neo-X to DTS-X in the media room because Neo-X was designed primarily for music and really makes great use of wide channels.
In the man cave I have an Atmos/DTS-X 5.1.4 system.
Around the house/office I use 2 channel systems within the DTS PlayFi ecosystem.
Here are pics of the media room (Marantz 7702 processor/Paradigm ACTIVE Reference Speakers)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=152962)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=161765)
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I would like to hear such a system one day. It reminds me of the Pink Floyd show i saw in the 70's with speakers mounted all around the auditorium with channels separated and panned around like Quad. There's no way I could get that past the spouse though, if I had a mancave sure, but I don't have one.
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Don't shoot the messenger. Doug Blackburn spends his days reviewing systems ranging from the meager to the cost no object for many years. He can listen to what he wants, when he wants, how he wants. Probably checked out more kilobuck systems then most:
"Also as ususal Auromatic made music sound so great I stopped listening to music in stereo mode,preferring the Auromatic option for every type of music I tried"- Doug Blackburrn on page 3-
https://www.stormaudio.com/media/wsr_stormaudio_iisp_3d1612_review_december2017lowres__067250400_0949_22122017.pdf
Guys, if Auromatic makes stereo virtually unlistenable what else can you say? That it doesn't suck?
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I would like to hear such a system one day. It reminds me of the Pink Floyd show i saw in the 70's with speakers mounted all around the auditorium with channels separated and panned around like Quad. There's no way I could get that past the spouse though, if I had a mancave sure, but I don't have one.
I hear you about WAF, that may be a deal breaker for some.
The cost of admission however has come way down. You can get an immersive 11.1 receiver that is capable of Auro-3D
for around $1000 from Denon/Marantz.
I use those tall stands because active speakers are heavy. For most discrete wall/ceiling mounts would be fine. Unlike atmos you don't have to cut holes in your ceiling for auro.
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Cheap and cheerful immerive audio (including auro 3d)
If you already have a 5.1 or 7.1 system get one of these:
https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/marsr7012/marantz-sr7012-9.2-ch-x-125-watts-a/v-receiver-w/heos/1.html
and 4 or 5 of these, they are cheap, come with the mounting brackets, and sound great to my ear (using in a desktop system currently and also have one ceiling mounted as a VOG channel):
https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/bossoundwareblka/boston-acoustics-soundware-4.5-speaker-atmos-dts-x-on-wall-speaker-black-each/1.html
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Guys, give it a rest please. Thanks.
I've followed this thread over time and it seems to have come back like a bad STD for some reason. 1) Music is recorded in stereo - save some very special recordings - but in either case - a proper 2 channel setup will reproduce them perfectly as intended. OK - take your best shot at me LOL. I've designed recording studios, screening rooms and cost-no-object custom audiophile systems. That said ...
I do like multi-channel systems. They can be as simple as 5.1 to start - depending on the size of the room, multiple sides, and multiple rears. For mega-rooms there may be 5 front channels. It's always nice to have full range mains for accurate music reproduction. And the number of LFE channels dependent on the room volume, construction and a whole lot more. FInally, ceiling speakers - most rooms will need 2, larger 4. If you need more than that - you have a crazy insane room and should consider opening a theater and selling tickets.
Now as to whether music sounds better with multiple speakers versus a stereo pair. If we consider Lexicon processors or better, they can create some good effects. That depends on exceptional room acoustics and construction. Without that, time smear and resonences to name a few will be disasterous.
I have a reference room with 2 channel and can play any well made recording and get solid center, far left and right, even side and rear with sound good film sound tracks.
Not to be a snob, I also have a film reference multi-channel surround system as well - full range left / right. Center to match the L/R except below 80hz. 2 surrounds per side, 2 rear surrounds. 4 ceiling speakers. I also have dual LFE channels. (If you really want the headroom and the ability to move air - 4 x 18" LFE channels will blow your mind - BUT you need a room that won't bend in the process - we've measured wall movements with a laser that move up to an inch in and out like a passive radiator!)
Now I'm not saying all this to cause a war. But let's be real. Rooms have impact. Budgets have impact. Personal taste has impact. But in the end it can all be quantified and measured.
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I've followed this thread over time and it seems to have come back like a bad STD for some reason. 1) Music is recorded in stereo - save some very special recordings - but in either case - a proper 2 channel setup will reproduce them perfectly as intended. OK - take your best shot at me LOL. I've designed recording studios, screening rooms and cost-no-object custom audiophile systems. That said ...
I do like multi-channel systems. They can be as simple as 5.1 to start - depending on the size of the room, multiple sides, and multiple rears. For mega-rooms there may be 5 front channels. It's always nice to have full range mains for accurate music reproduction. And the number of LFE channels dependent on the room volume, construction and a whole lot more. FInally, ceiling speakers - most rooms will need 2, larger 4. If you need more than that - you have a crazy insane room and should consider opening a theater and selling tickets.
Now as to whether music sounds better with multiple speakers versus a stereo pair. If we consider Lexicon processors or better, they can create some good effects. That depends on exceptional room acoustics and construction. Without that, time smear and resonences to name a few will be disasterous.
I have a reference room with 2 channel and can play any well made recording and get solid center, far left and right, even side and rear with sound good film sound tracks.
Not to be a snob, I also have a film reference multi-channel surround system as well - full range left / right. Center to match the L/R except below 80hz. 2 surrounds per side, 2 rear surrounds. 4 ceiling speakers. I also have dual LFE channels. (If you really want the headroom and the ability to move air - 4 x 18" LFE channels will blow your mind - BUT you need a room that won't bend in the process - we've measured wall movements with a laser that move up to an inch in and out like a passive radiator!)
Now I'm not saying all this to cause a war. But let's be real. Rooms have impact. Budgets have impact. Personal taste has impact. But in the end it can all be quantified and measured.
Your observation that music is recorded in two channel is poignant, I must agree. I like to listen to two channel in a desktop system with JBL speakers that are patterned after the M2 monitor. I tried the Pro JBL monitors but prefer my class A amp. I like to try and replicate what the engineer heard in this setup using MQA files based on the master.
But for sheer scale and dynamics of a LIVE event immersive is untouchable IMO.
Evoke, it would be awesome if you could post some pics of your listening rooms, thanks!
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Another critic chimes in, Auro 3D for music upmixing:
As far as my chosen tracks go, the Auro-3D upmix aced ’em all. Fun times, and motivation enough to check out the Auro-3D upgrade on my Marantz SR-7010. It turns out I may have been missing out by not leveraging Auro-3Ds prowess at upmixing 2-channel (and even mono) music tracks. Marc Henninger
https://www.avsforum.com/auro-3d-music-upmix-demo-stormaudio-isp-3d-16-elite-prepro-ces-2017/
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Video of the PMC/Bryston SP4 demo at the Bristol Show:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUytlzyhXaY
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Witchdoctor - Glad you have something you are so passionate about . Sounds like something most would enjoy , if they only heard it . I had not heard of this immersive thing . Will research and see what I can come up with . I have a Anthem d2 Processor I just picked up , Also Have a pair of JBL 305 and 308 I could give this a go possibly .
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Witchdoctor - Glad you have something you are so passionate about . Sounds like something most would enjoy , if they only heard it . I had not heard of this immersive thing . Will research and see what I can come up with . I have a Anthem d2 Processor I just picked up , Also Have a pair of JBL 305 and 308 I could give this a go possibly .
I just picked up a Paradigm PW Amp which runs ARC room correction, amazing integration between sub and speakers. It puts you in a bubble of sound. Did you get a good deal on the d2?
The JBL's are used in some studios to actually mix immersive soundtracks. I have seen pics with the 308's as bed channels and the 305's on high stands as height channels, it'll sound great IMO.
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Witchdoctor - It is the original model , not the d2v I might of overpaid a little . Been looking off and on for a couple years for a local sale . Haven't been in a big rush on that one. I assume I would need at least one more speaker for the "immersive" setup . I will have to research this as I've never heard of it . Is it mainly taking a 2 channel source and using some software in the receiver to add the channels ?
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Witchdoctor - It is the original model , not the d2v I might of overpaid a little . Been looking off and on for a couple years for a local sale . Haven't been in a big rush on that one. I assume I would need at least one more speaker for the "immersive" setup . I will have to research this as I've never heard of it . Is it mainly taking a 2 channel source and using some software in the receiver to add the channels ?
I am familiar with that model it does surround sound. You can have up to 7 speakers in a surround format as well as a sub. "Immersive" audio adds height channels above you. If you are looking at adding speakers start with a stereo pair and then add more as budget allows. First a subwoofer, then a center channel and then two more surround channels for a 5.1 system. You can also add rear surround channels for a 7.1 system. This video describes setting up a surround system:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sjocJvK6rI
This video explains how to setup an "immersive" system in the auro 3d configuration which I use:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4piXwfhnFI
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Hahhhahhha! As soon as I saw this:
"Re: Two Channels Sucks Compared to Immersive Audio"
I just knew that the originator had to be involved.
Trust your ears and listen to what you like, how you like! If your system and the sound you get from it makes you happy, well then you're all set.
HsvHeelFan
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I don't need this kind of headline in front of me on AC.
Please click on the --Configure-- button at the bottom of the recent topics list, check the box next to Home Theater and Video, and click Save at the bottom right.
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Your observation that music is recorded in two channel is poignant, I must agree. I like to listen to two channel in a desktop system with JBL speakers that are patterned after the M2 monitor. I tried the Pro JBL monitors but prefer my class A amp. I like to try and replicate what the engineer heard in this setup using MQA files based on the master.
But for sheer scale and dynamics of a LIVE event immersive is untouchable IMO.
Evoke, it would be awesome if you could post some pics of your listening rooms, thanks!
I've read some of your comments about $100,000 speakers - I agree. While there are some good efforts I think the money is for the paint job - mostly kidding (so some degree). On the other end of the spectrum - your reference to 2 channel with a desk top system is just as far on the other end of the spectrum.
As for my work, I'd have to dig in my files to see what I can publish. Most are high profile clienst where I sign non-disclosures. By the way, the mains typically cost $20,000 a channel, they require 4 channels of amps each for the electronic crossovers etc. If using an available room, close to $100,000 is not unusual for acoustics. Add a nice video projector for about $50K and you have a great set-up.
Now, If you want something reasonable, 3 Eddies and 6 - 10 Rubys work quite well. I'd add 2 - 4 subwoofers, associated amps and a good surround pre-amp. Music and Film wise, it is quite spectacular.
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I must be out of the loop. At work, 8-12 hours each day I listen to a $1.50 boom box I bought at a garage sale, too much dust here. Any system will sound better than this. I guess I am just a music lover more than an audiophile.
But I like great audiophile systems also. :thumb:
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I've read some of your comments about $100,000 speakers - I agree. While there are some good efforts I think the money is for the paint job - mostly kidding (so some degree). On the other end of the spectrum - your reference to 2 channel with a desk top system is just as far on the other end of the spectrum.
As for my work, I'd have to dig in my files to see what I can publish. Most are high profile clienst where I sign non-disclosures. By the way, the mains typically cost $20,000 a channel, they require 4 channels of amps each for the electronic crossovers etc. If using an available room, close to $100,000 is not unusual for acoustics. Add a nice video projector for about $50K and you have a great set-up.
Now, If you want something reasonable, 3 Eddies and 6 - 10 Rubys work quite well. I'd add 2 - 4 subwoofers, associated amps and a good surround pre-amp. Music and Film wise, it is quite spectacular.
What would be your preference in a good surround pre-amp? Have you checked out auromatic yet?
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I must be out of the loop. At work, 8-12 hours each day I listen to a $1.50 boom box I bought at a garage sale, too much dust here. Any system will sound better than this. I guess I am just a music lover more than an audiophile.
But I like great audiophile systems also. :thumb:
Dust? That can muck up electronics in no time. That boom box must be sturdy. At least you got music though.
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What would be your preference in a good surround pre-amp? Have you checked out auromatic yet?
Good question. First the prices DISGUST me. Finding a good mid-range product is not easy. When you consider speakers, subs and electronics (and then the monthly bill for DirecTV or whatever), it's pricey for anyone. I recall taking my entire first paycheck and spending all of it on a phono cartridge. Mind you, people like me exist - but thankfully there are medications that help with that kind of thinking LOL
Odd to hear me say, but I think there are some really good surround receivers out there. Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer Ellite come to mind. I think around $1500 gets a great product. Yes there are receivers up to $6,000 - but at a certain point separates are called for. At that point a surround preamp gets way up there. I have a NuPrime that is no longer made. It listed for $3K. Quite a deal - but oddly, some receivers have more features. It's a really good preamp and meets 2 of my most important qualities (as do my speakers) - exceptional value for the money, and performance to match components MANY times the price.
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Good question. First the prices DISGUST me. Finding a good mid-range product is not easy. When you consider speakers, subs and electronics (and then the monthly bill for DirecTV or whatever), it's pricey for anyone. I recall taking my entire first paycheck and spending all of it on a phono cartridge. Mind you, people like me exist - but thankfully there are medications that help with that kind of thinking LOL
Odd to hear me say, but I think there are some really good surround receivers out there. Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer Ellite come to mind. I think around $1500 gets a great product. Yes there are receivers up to $6,000 - but at a certain point separates are called for. At that point a surround preamp gets way up there. I have a NuPrime that is no longer made. It listed for $3K. Quite a deal - but oddly, some receivers have more features. It's a really good preamp and meets 2 of my most important qualities (as do my speakers) - exceptional value for the money, and performance to match components MANY times the price.
In the man cave I was running separates, a Carver 505 5 channel amp and a Sunfire TG3 with modest priced speakers. Sounded nice but lacked HDMI, I have upgraded to whole house audio using DTS Play-Fi and 3 brands of HT receivers play in that ecosystem, Integra, Pioneer, and Onkyo. I just pulled the trigger on an Onkyo RZ630. NINE channels for $350!! I am still dilaing it in so can't really comment on the final result yet but I am stunned to what I got for less than $500 (refurb- new units are $499)
https://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-RZ630-Channel-Network-Receiver/dp/B07CW3F37L/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=306RZ24RNC2WF&keywords=onkyo+rz630&qid=1552575085&s=gateway&sprefix=onkyo+rz%2Caps%2C204&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&smid=A2K7RN1DSQCI9O
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Interesting thread, and since everyone else has had a shot here's my two cents worth, even though that probably belongs to the Cheap and Cheerful thread.
I have a Five channel Yamaha 757 receiver and its great driving my small Paradigm Atoms and rear Cambridge soundworks surrounds with a Dayton sub.
After setting it up with the mike included with the receiver, it has a nice sweetspot right on the Sofa.
It sounds great for movies, but not so much for music. Its not that it sounds bad, I just prefer listening to just the Atoms and the Sub, maybe thats because thats what I'm used to listening to. I have plenty of surround modes to try, but I always come back to Stereo.
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I tend to agree - even with a purist setup, DSD 5.1 with excellent amps and speakers, I always come back to 2 channel. I think part of it is the multi channel stuff is just too fussy.
If you are exactly in the sweet spot, DSD 5.1 can do some cool stuff that 2 channel cannot. But if you are NOT in the sweet spot, then 2 channel sounds much better. Even in the sweet spot, there's something more 'right' sounding about 2 channel. Especially if you run OB mains that give a greater sense of depth/space than box speakers can.
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Not my 2 channel; my 2 channel is so unorthodox it is extremely immersive audio! 1st off my background, been into audio (2 channel) for 45 years, many systems, much more money invested and more equipment than I have now for example I had custom made ACI Panoramas with stereo ACI Maestro subs all have been sold along with other equipment and now down to some old local speakers I have modified with a mix of drivers, 12” woofer, 4” mid & soft dome tweeter and Parts Express crossovers, a Van Alstine amp, a new NAD c368 and a modified Velodyne 18” cabinet with a Dayton 18” driver and Dayton SA1000 amp along with a Richard Gray 400 and all 10 gauge silver wire.
This is hard to describe but my room is 18’ x 24’ x 9’ high. Well insulated with acoustical ceiling and concrete floor with ½ carpet, my Mancave. My speakers are on a shelf 8’ high and about 20’ apart towed in a bit and angled down a bit and my sub in on the floor in the middle BUT we stand or sit on bar stools (with backs) about 4 feet out into the room from the sound wall facing the opposite direction (speakers behind us) for DVD concerts because my new 65” TV is opposite the speakers and I tell you, when a concert is playing and the volume is up, the sound is all around! It’s like you are in the very first row and friends are wowed, and after like 10 years of this system I am still wowed! The sound is full and very immersive! And sometimes when I want to just listen, I will sit in front of the TV facing my system and the whole 24’ x 9’ wall is filled with sound and with wonderful imaging. It is the most fun and enjoyable system I’ve ever had, and I still look forward to my listening times, mostly Saturday nights.
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Not my 2 channel; my 2 channel is so unorthodox it is extremely immersive audio! 1st off my background, been into audio (2 channel) for 45 years, many systems, much more money invested and more equipment than I have now for example I had custom made ACI Panoramas with stereo ACI Maestro subs all have been sold along with other equipment and now down to some old local speakers I have modified with a mix of drivers, 12” woofer, 4” mid & soft dome tweeter and Parts Express crossovers, a Van Alstine amp, a new NAD c368 and a modified Velodyne 18” cabinet with a Dayton 18” driver and Dayton SA1000 amp along with a Richard Gray 400 and all 10 gauge silver wire.
This is hard to describe but my room is 18’ x 24’ x 9’ high. Well insulated with acoustical ceiling and concrete floor with ½ carpet, my Mancave. My speakers are on a shelf 8’ high and about 20’ apart towed in a bit and angled down a bit and my sub in on the floor in the middle BUT we stand or sit on bar stools (with backs) about 4 feet out into the room from the sound wall facing the opposite direction (speakers behind us) for DVD concerts because my new 65” TV is opposite the speakers and I tell you, when a concert is playing and the volume is up, the sound is all around! It’s like you are in the very first row and friends are wowed, and after like 10 years of this system I am still wowed! The sound is full and very immersive! And sometimes when I want to just listen, I will sit in front of the TV facing my system and the whole 24’ x 9’ wall is filled with sound and with wonderful imaging. It is the most fun and enjoyable system I’ve ever had, and I still look forward to my listening times, mostly Saturday nights.
Congratulations, it looks like we agree on immersive audio but you created your own, very interesting. Speakers elevated in the rear of the room firing forward. A 24" wall/screen is pretty big.
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I should have mentioned size as well, my room is all of probably 8 x 11, so its a fairly small space, much different probably than most listening areas. Circa 1800 houses tend to have pretty smallish living areas, because thats all they were ever meant for.
Sounds like a pretty cool mancave!
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I should have mentioned size as well, my room is all of probably 8 x 11, so its a fairly small space, much different probably than most listening areas. Circa 1800 houses tend to have pretty smallish living areas, because thats all they were ever meant for.
Sounds like a pretty cool mancave!
I can't believe you can get a NINE channel receiver with all the 4K bells and whistles for less than $500. It lacks auro 3D but includes atmos, DTS-X, and DTS Play-Fi! :thumb:
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I was going to post asking we not feed the troll, alas I am 14 pages too late. It is a shame witchdoctor started this topic and continues with such a caustic tone. There is a valid discussion to be had around the tradeoffs of 2-channel vs multi-channel but thoughtful discussions are hard to have when they are started with a flame thrower.
I do find this quote from witchdoctors first post quite amusing “Do me a favor, buy 10 decent book shelf speakers and a sub and get yourself a Marantz or Denon receiver, get the Auro 3D upgrade and just leave it on. You can thank me later…” When I sold and installed stereo and multi-channel HiFi at the retail level the #1 concern of typical clients was the visibility of speakers in their living spaces. As a result a system with 10 speakers is what I call “bachelorhood enforcers”. Any potential mate will take one look at a 10 speaker array filling every wall, corner, and ceiling spot of a room then turn and run.
BTW, I noticed some of the more "discrete" two channel systems in your gallery,...NOT:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;image=169416
I stand by my first post and we can use Legacy Speakers as an example from your gallery. 10 of their home theater speakers would be both more discrete, have higher WAF and sound better than stereo in an auro 3d setup than those two towers. Pick any 10 that suits your decor:
https://legacyaudio.com/products/sides-and-rears/
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I should have mentioned size as well, my room is all of probably 8 x 11, so its a fairly small space, much different probably than most listening areas. Circa 1800 houses tend to have pretty smallish living areas, because thats all they were ever meant for.
Sounds like a pretty cool mancave!
Yes it is, my home could burn down but I'd be devastated if my Mancave did! :)
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Yes it is, my home could burn down but I'd be devastated if my Mancave did! :)
One thing though, you gotta replace the barstools with loungers. :D
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One thing though, you gotta replace the barstools with loungers. :D
Been there done that with my past systems and if I did now no matter the volume or artist, good chance my friends and possibly me would nod-off. :) The stools are only for my friends, I like to stand and move to the music! :D
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Although the title is a little forward in your face, I don't see anything wrong with this thread....its like me saying paradigm sucks compared to DML panels when it comes to imaging, its just ones opinion. LOL
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Although the title is a little forward in your face,
I have to disagree.
Your car sucks compared to my BMW, Lexus, etc. :roll:
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Although the title is a little forward in your face, I don't see anything wrong with this thread....its like me saying paradigm sucks compared to DML panels when it comes to imaging, its just ones opinion. LOL
Agreed. But folks keep jumping in since they're "triggered" and/or offended, which in this day and age is the new way to get society to change its view to match yours.
So yea, the title is is like modern day "click bait". It sucks, It's aggressive, so shame on the Witchdoctor for that.
But there can be several vollies of folks having a good conversation, then somebody jumps back in all triggered and offended and feels a subject line they don't like should be binned because they lack the maturity to "scroll on", therefore the world needs to succumb to their wishes. So, shame on them.
Such is life now days. I truly feel sorry for the folks that lack the ability to simply smile and nod.
In the good ol days here, a mod use to be able to delete individual posts, but we now lack that ability. Would certainly be nice in this thread, as I could probably cut the page count in half.
Bob - Moderator.
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Hard to fix this topic Bob, as a Stereo fan I see that he has reduced the credibility of multi-channels systems to ashes with these controversial posts.
Uhhhh, I never posted about "multichannel" :scratch:
This thread is about "immersive audio", please watch this video about the "immersive mix" done at Abbey Road for Pink Floyd that will explain the difference. (warning, don't get triggered if they have the same opinion as the witchdoctor. The speaker setup they use in the studio is the same as the one I use in my media room only I just use 1 sub). At about the 1:00 minute mark in the video the engineer states "After you take the next step into full immersion coming back again is going to be virtually impossible".
He's right, you know why? Because it sucks in comparison. You got the witchdoctor, then Widescreen review critic Doug Blackburn stating he can't even listen to stereo after using auromatic upmoxing and now Pink Floyd's engineer, Simon Rhodes, at Abbey Road saying he can NEVER go back again after being IMMERSED :thumb:.
Is it possible we are ALL wrong and the guy who apparently hasn't even compared it for himself in his own space is right? Not :nono::
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMlFN8V4qW4
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Are there any follow-ups to that video?
I did a little digging, and didn't find much, audibly speaking.
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Are there any follow-ups to that video?
I did a little digging, and didn't find much, audibly speaking.
I recommend getting the Atmos Blue Ray version of Roger Water's The Wall, I think those same guys at Abbey Road in the video did the mix:
https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Roger-Waters-The-Wall-Blu-ray/12873/
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Whatever happened to QSound? At times the sound seemed wrap around and it was 2 channel only.
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I recommend getting the Atmos Blue Ray version of Roger Water's The Wall, I think those same guys at Abbey Road in the video did the mix:
https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Roger-Waters-The-Wall-Blu-ray/12873/
Interesting, thank you. That's definitely on my short list. :thumb:
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Whatever happened to QSound? At times the sound seemed wrap around and it was 2 channel only.
https://obsoletemedia.org/qsound-compact-disc/
http://www.qsound.com/spotlight/users/recording-artists.htm
I also have an old Carver C-9 Sonic Hologram generator on the output of an old Oppo DV980h in a spare system that once a year or two I may have some fun with. I also have a hard drive attached to an Oppo 203 in that same system with about 50 extracted multi-channel DSD files (I think I have to convert them to 24/88.2 with the current receiver) that I revisit once every year or two for fun.
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I recommend getting the Atmos Blue Ray version of Roger Water's The Wall, I think those same guys at Abbey Road in the video did the mix:
https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Roger-Waters-The-Wall-Blu-ray/12873/
David Gilmour's "Live at Pompeii" Blu-ray, although not yet available in Dolby Atmos with 4K video, is excellent as well. The sound is killer! The one night theater showing was in Dolby Atmos so the mix does exist.
Live at Pompeii concert: 96/24 PCM Stereo & 96/24 DTS-HD MASTER AUDIO
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=171955&size=xlarge)
The DTS-HD Master Audio (6917 kbps, 96 kHz/24 bit) is demo quality, the surround sound clarity is beyond amazing, this disk need to be played back on your best 5.1 system. Note: the PCM Audio layer, while good, is not in the same league as the DTS-HD layer which is much clearer with excellent 5.1 steering. David Gilmour is at his peak, his playing is better than ever, the band is excellent as well, free flowing and super tight at the same time, these guys have been practicing. The backup singers nail it every time, listening to The Great Gig In The Sky will give you goose bumps.
The visuals are excellent as well, great camera work and editing. I never watch music videos because they bore me but this disk held my interest for it's entire 2-1/2 hours.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=171956&size=huge)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=171957&size=huge)
Wayne
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Witchdoctor, I'm asking you Sir, would you please be so kind as to rephrase the title in your first post to something less controversial?
If nothing else, it might just help you gain friends instead of enemies.
I am, after all trying to help you keep your thread alive. Please, and thank you.
Bob - Moderator.
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Witchdoctor, I'm asking you Sir, would you please be so kind as to rephrase the title in your first post to something less controversial?
If nothing else, it might just help you gain friends instead of enemies.
I am, after all trying to help you keep your thread alive. Please, and thank you.
Bob - Moderator.
With pleasure Bob, NP. Let me know if I should make any additional changes to the new one :D
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Yes, immersive audio is just better. Don't believe me? TRY it (in your own space) and let me know. All of the engineers here prefer the IMMERSIVE mix over the stereo mix, you know why? Because it's just better :thumb:
Giles Martin engineered the IMMERSIVE mix of Abbey Road:
“This is one of the most important albums of all time,” said the younger Martin of the record. “Each track has its own character and imagery, building song by song across the record as a whole. The Dolby Atmos mix is truly immersive, placing the audience inside the recordings like never before.”
https://www.digitaltrends.com/movies/sgt-peppers-dolby-atmos/
Scott Litt and Clif Norrell/ R.E.M.
Mixing for Atmos, explains Norrell, is an entirely new world compared to traditional surround due to its overhead channels. “Instead of a 360 degree/2D experience, it is a 360, 3D experience,” he comments of Atmos. “There’s a sense of depth and space that Atmos allows that hasn’t really been possible before. It opens up a lot of possibilities for me as a mixer, in terms of letting the listener to really feel inside of it.
https://www.prosoundnetwork.com/recording/litt-norrell-remix-rem-for-atmos
Dennis Waakop Reijers-Fraaij, the producer—with Tiësto—of Elements of Life, commented, “Finally, I could hear all the subtle details in terms of space and depth within the Auro-3D mix, which I couldn’t get from the stereo mix. Auro-3D and dance music make a fantastic combination as they are both all about the experience. Auro-3D is finally the largest step towards truly three-dimensional audio, as this is the way we experience sound in the real world. Suffice to say, I’m very much looking forward to further cooperation in the near future.”
https://www.prosoundnetwork.com/business/tisto-remixed-for-auro-3d
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Do you get it? Read the last quote that states that Auro 3D IMMERSIVE audio is like the way we experience sound in the REAL world. :thumb:
Stereo is the way you experience sound in the NOT real world. :nono:
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There a plenty of formats that people claim is better than stereo but none have had staying power in the market.
Regarding your opinion, I'll take it more seriously when the links you provide are something I can relate to. Studio mastered Electronic/Dance and rock/pop albums are of of no listening interest to me.
Provide me with references to how immersive sound improves the listening experience for recording live concerts and my brain will perk up. Then show me an elegant, practical installation of an immersive system in a residential environment and you will have my attention.
Until then this a BIG YAWN.
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There a plenty of formats that people claim is better than stereo but none have had staying power in the market.
Regarding your opinion, I'll take it more seriously when the links you provide are something I can relate to. Studio mastered Electronic/Dance and rock/pop albums are of of no listening interest to me.
Provide me with references to how immersive sound improves the listening experience for recording live concerts and my brain will perk up. Then show me an elegant, practical installation of an immersive system in a residential environment and you will have my attention.
Until then this a BIG YAWN.
You want me to convince YOU??? Impossible to do that through the internet. If you are curious and want to do your own research go on and checkout Galaxy Studios, Sennheiser Ambeo, Barco Cinema's, Dolby Atmos, Auro 3-D, and DTS-X. I'll be happy to get you started.
I can't imagine why anyone would want to stay a flat earther:
https://www.auro-3d.com/blog/interview-morten-lindberg-on-auro-3d-recorded-music-is-no-longer-a-flat-canvas-but-a-sculpture-you-can-literally-move-around/
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Now I am convinced.
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OK, here is a video of Mike Thornton at Galaxy Studio making an immersive mix:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQi_bnO0tas
"I was IN the concert hall, absolutely spectacular!"- Mike Thornton after listening to Auro 3D at the studio for the first time.
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Thank you for the change to the title.
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Thank you for the change to the title.
Sure, I appreciate you giving me a heads up. :D
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I have two channel systems in my office and my dining room, all good for background listening and wanting to dig deeper into a 2 channel experience that the engineer created in the studio. But if you read my first post I never say throw the baby out with the bath water. It is just to STOP for a moment when you reach for your wallet and consider IMMERSIVE audio.
IMO 10 of these (or any smaller direct radiating speaker) in an auro 3D setup:
https://www.svsound.com/pages/prime-elevation
vs two of these for the same amount of $$$, I use SVS in this example but pick your vendor, the same principle applies:
https://www.svsound.com/collections/ultra-series/products/ultra-tower
Pick your speaker vendor and budget, in a head to head shootout it is no contest. BTW, do I still listen to 2 channel in my immersive setup? I can if it suits me, just hit a button on the remote. You can have BOTH for the price of one. That is why it is just BETTER!
The witchdoctor agrees.
The critics agree.
The engineers agree.
The musicians agree.
EVERYONE agrees except the flat earthers who have never experienced and remain triggered at the thought that they dumped $$$$ into last years (decades?) tech. It is like you bought the BEST computer in 1986 and didn't want to upgrade because you would have to learn new software and didn't want to spend any money ever again.
Don't look to your vendors, why would they want to disgruntle loyal two channel customers? Look at Marantz, did they stop making two channel gear? Look at Bryston, did they abandon two channel? NOT. Did they see the future and get on board? That SP4 must be winning awards for some reason (James get the height channels already if you are reading this)
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Here is a review of the SVS Prime Elevation speaker I link to in the above post. If you are shopping for 2 channels, for 5 channels. for 7 channels, or for 10 channels they will work. Throw in an SVS sub or two and you are golden. For those of you worried about WAF this is a LOT less in your face than a pair of towers:
https://www.techhive.com/article/3137409/svs-prime-elevation-speaker-review-an-incredibly-versatile-audio-solution-for-the-home-theater.html
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*sound better being defined as perceived as sounding closer to a live event. (Where's Ella?)
Because of the idea created by HP that live music is a suited reference for home audio we are in this state of affairs today, live music may be a reference for pro recording audio, only if the listener is at a orchestra hall center seat near the stage, but it should not be the goal of home audio, the home audio goal must be a pleasant sound to the listener personal taste.
Usually what the audience listen in a show is the result of monsters SS amps with 18'' woofers and plastic horns not to mentions the pro audio xovers, I have spent decades thinking and doing equip purchases base on this misleading concept.
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WD,
Why the hard sell? What’s at stake?
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Folks its just all OPINION....take it with a grain of salt...its like all of us comparing each others system and trying to figure out which of our systems is better. Are electrostatic speakers better then conventional cone speakers? Its all "PERSONAL PREFERENCE" predicated on each individuals personal system.
Is witchdr's system the best in the world? Heck no I am sure there are a lot of 2 channel systems that will blow his immersive paradigm system out of the water. LOL
What sounds good to one person might not sound good to another....Some people love the Teckton speakers and some don't, some people just hate Zuaudio and some people love it, once again its all personal preference.
Some people grew up listening to two channel so they prefer that type of sound while others prefer that immersive type of sound....I tend to like BOTH but to say one is better then the other all depends on personal preference as two channel still sounds the most coherent IMO since we only have TWO (2) EARS and are ear lobes face forward so we can pin point more accurately the direction of where sound is coming from as we weren't meant to pin point sounds from the back or else we would have ears like a deer that can rotate 180 degrees or greater. LOL
When Dolby prologic first came out it was suppose to be the next best thing but yet 2 channel systems still remains strong.
Immersive audio is basically Omni directional sound but there are omini speakers that can produce that type of sound and even some 2 channel systems can produce a immersive sound as long as the recording allows it.
I love the sound of DML panels as its sound is very unique unlike other conventional or even electrostatic/planars speakers but that is just my personal preference.
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Its all "PERSONAL PREFERENCE" predicated on each individuals personal system.
+1. Each person brain and ears are only and different and this made home audio a part from other hobbies, all agree the current TVs images are great but this dont happen in audio:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108628&size=huge)
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WD,
Why the hard sell? What’s at stake?
Great question, the hard sell is because of what has been annoying me. Look at my first post, what annoys me is mega buck speakers. You know why? They are a necessary evil of trying to recreate music using only two speakers. It's a limp model going in, so vendors try to "repair" the flaws of two channel by making more and more expensive equipment.
Here is the million dollar question, if my claim that immersive audio is better is false why are The Beatles, Pink Floyd, R.E.M.,etc. all putting out immersive mixes when the two channel already exists? Answer, it is because the immersive model is just better. Go read the links I posted, every engineer stated the immersive mix was better. So, I'm not the one "hard selling", I am only a messenger. Go through this thread and see all the opinions I have posted from critics and engineers alike.
Two channel can sound great yes, but take your budget and put it into 9 or 10 speakers not two because, "immersive is just better"!
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There's a lot more (or it is less) going on here than just arrogance:
1. Have the criteria for better been stated?
2. Is there agreement amongst parties that the stated criteria are relevant and sufficiently complete?
3. Has adequate evidence been provided to justify the statement?
Without reading the thread and going through all of the links here is my opinion:
1. Sort of can be possible deduced but not really.
2. No
3. I will say yes from what I have deduced in 1.
Here's one of my favorite audio examples which sometimes sends people into a tizzy..
Are vinyl recordings better than MP3 recordings? If the sole criteria is sound quality yes. However if I add additional criteria then it's probably no.
How important is availability of material?
What about portability?
What about support for mobile devices?
Ability to play in a vehicle? OK now's the time to post your vinyl DUAL turntable setup playing in your car while you drive.
Cost of the solution?
Which leads me to my current position on this topic:
When played back on a properly designed and implemented immersive sound system with the listener seated in the optimal playback location, a recording made and mastered for immersive sound will likely sound better* than an equivalent recording made, mastered for, and played back on a properly designed and implemented two channel stereo system with the listener seated in the proper location for optimal stereo playback.
Note I have made no mention of the cost or other requirements such as room size, ceiling height, SAF, or intrusiveness of the setup in the space.
*sound better being defined as perceived as sounding closer to a live event. (Where's Ella?)
Take your speaker budget, divide it by 9 or 10, setup an auro 3D system, it will be BETTER than the two channel/stereo version PLUS it will do movies PLUS it will play 2 channel stereo PLUS you don't need to use oomgowa tower speakers.
So all of that means better. It sounds better, is better value, has better functionality, AND you can still use a turntable ALL GOOD.
If you disagree I started another thread on Rock Star Two Channel Systems for under $200. Great when and where immersive systems aren't practical or for the closed minded flat earth types who refuse to compare for themselves in their own space.
BTW, the auromatic upmixer converts any two channel mix into an immersive mix so no worries about content. I have A/B native auro mixes vs the auromatic upmixer and couldn't tell the difference, they are very close.
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Answer: Because they can make money by doing so!!!
And you still have not defined better.
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Answer: Because they can make money by doing so!!!
And you still have not defined better.
You don't want the witchdoctor's definition, you want the experts definition. Go watch the videos I posted of the engineers, they wiull define better in much "better" terms than the witchdoctor. Basically "once you experience immersive audio, you can never go back to two channel."
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Here's and interesting perspective on Dolby Atmos vs. Auro 3D. Unfortunately it appears that Auro-3D has at least one foot in the grave.
https://rslspeakers.com/dolby-atmos-vs-auro-3d/
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Here's and interesting perspective on Dolby Atmos vs. Auro 3D. Unfortunately it appears that Auro-3D has at least one foot in the grave.
https://rslspeakers.com/dolby-atmos-vs-auro-3d/
See if you can check it out at a movie theater:
https://www.barco.com/en/page/cinema/locator
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I have no doubt that listening to immersive audio is an interesting experience...and probably very sonically satisfying. It will be interesting to see if is able to establish a foothold where other multichannel formats have not. Many of these effects that are adopted widely with the Home Theater market seem to have difficulty gaining acceptance among the music only and audiophile market. No need to refer to skeptics as "flat earthers" or otherwise be dismissive of their doubts. I was around when hi-fi made the move from mono to stereo. There were some doubters then too. Many of the first stereo recordings were gimmicky but after a while recording engineers found ways to make it more elegant. As the recordings got better and more plentiful the acceptance of stereo seemed to be more organic. Moving from one channel to two went pretty easily..but every attempt to double the number of speakers (regardless of sound quality) since then seemed to have stalled. Maybe immersive audio will be different.
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I can check it out in a not too far away movie theater. I just need to figure out what to go see.
I think the prognosis for home is not good. The physical requirements are too onerous for the masses. Atmos has a better chance with its hack of upfiring speakers that can be placed atop an existing speaker arrangement but in the end I don't think most people are willing to design a multi use room around a home theater setup and I suspect the number of dedicated home theater rooms in homes is very small.
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I have no doubt that listening to immersive audio is an interesting experience...and probably very sonically satisfying. It will be interesting to see if is able to establish a foothold where other multichannel formats have not. Many of these effects that are adopted widely with the Home Theater market seem to have difficulty gaining acceptance among the music only and audiophile market. No need to refer to skeptics as "flat earthers" or otherwise be dismissive of their doubts. I was around when hi-fi made the move from mono to stereo. There were some doubters then too. Many of the first stereo recordings were gimmicky but after a while recording engineers found ways to make it more elegant. As the recordings got better and more plentiful the acceptance of stereo seemed to be more organic. Moving from one channel to two went pretty easily..but every attempt to double the number of speakers (regardless of sound quality) since then seemed to have stalled. Maybe immersive audio will be different.
I can't say if the audio format will gain mass adoption where SACD or DSD didn't. This thread isn't aimed at Joe Six pack. If you read my first post it is aimed at people who spend $$$ on a pair of speakers. I think anyone who is spending north of $2K on L-R channel speakers should at a minimum audition an immersive system before pulling the trigger. Let Joe Sixpack be happy with a soundbar.
I got a glimmer that the "immersive" format is getting traction last night actually. I just got a big 4K Roku TV for the man cave that has a feature called Dolby Vision. I am on netflix scrolling and I see original content with little dolby vision logos. OK I bite and pick one. Next thing I know I am pulled into this show as not only do the colors pop but the default streaming in my rig is Dolby Atmos, NOT Dolby Digital 5.1. I was bowled over, this is the future of TV, we are all getting "movie theaters" in our living room riding on the shoulders of netflix, amazon, and the other streaming providers. Believe me, once you experience you ain't going back to Kansas.
So, immersive audio is just better and gets a bonus of 4K/Dolby Vision shows in addition to superior upmixed audio, often for LESS han the price of a high end "stereo".
As for "flat earthers" it has two meanings. The obvious is people who are afraid to experience immersive because they are sure the world (as in the two channel world) is the best things can get. YET, they are full of opinions on what they "imagine" immersion is.
The other meaning is literal. Stereo and multi-channel are FLAT, as in a 2D systems on one plane. By adding the height channels "immersive" audio is 3D in auro 3D format. see the pic:
https://360cameraonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Auro-Head-Graphic-2D.jpg
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I can check it out in a not too far away movie theater. I just need to figure out what to go see.
I think the prognosis for home is not good. The physical requirements are too onerous for the masses. Atmos has a better chance with its hack of upfiring speakers that can be placed atop an existing speaker arrangement but in the end I don't think most people are willing to design a multi use room around a home theater setup and I suspect the number of dedicated home theater rooms in homes is very small.
You need to check the mix is either atmos, dts-x or auro-3D AND make sure the theater you are in is equipped for it. Multiplexes may have a movie playing in more than one theater and one is properly equipped and one isn't. make sure to call before you go.
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Here is the million dollar question, if my claim that immersive audio is better is false why are The Beatles, Pink Floyd, R.E.M.,etc. all putting out immersive mixes when the two channel already exists? Answer.....
The Answer is......because you buy them.
Do you really think there is enough hard liners (like you) out there to
support immersive audio re-releases?......lol, nope.
Like all audio products, etc being sold today its the uneducated masses
that buy this gimmickry, you are an anomaly.
Thank the gods I have immersive multi AND 2ch systems...
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Hmmmm, I think having both immersive and two channel systems is the best solution, depending on the room size. The desktop is basically two channel territory but a living area you can do both.
As for my "zeal", "passion" "hard headedness" or whatever it isn't immersive audio per se that got me to start this thread.
It is what I see as the ignorance of the well heeled audiophile who is passionate about SQ but locked into a two channel mind set. If you are dropping more than $2K on speakers you should SHOP. Shop for two channel and SHOP for immersive. Get to a dealer. Use a company like SVS or RSL that let's you audition at home.
Did I discover fire? No. Did the members here even consider immersive audio before there last $$$ speaker purchase? I don't know why I care, I shouldn't, but I do. Talk about WAF for a sec. 10 surround speakers CAN be less obtrusive than 2 towers.
Talk about $$$$. An immersive receiver CAN be less expensive than a 2 channel integrated.
Can an immersive setup do 2 channel? Yes. Can a two channel setup do immersive? Apparently yes from reading the posts here by other members but good luck to those on that quest.
So what "annoys" me is that passionate listeners are plowing fresh money (in piles) into two channel without ever considering or auditioning an immersive setup. remember:
- The witchdoctor prefers it
- SOME critics prefer it
- SOME engineers prefer it
- SOME musicians prefer it
Will you prefer it is the question. AND you ain't gonna know until you try. Just TRY before the next time you reach for your wallet is all I'm saying.
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I would like to see blue rays with qsound come out.I am sure it is the not as good as immersive, but you do not have to buy so many speakers. 2 channel will work well.
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The latest entrant in immersive sound.
https://www.sony.com/electronics/360-reality-audio
BTW what ever happened to their SBM.
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To be quite honest, it's threads like these that make admin/moderators aggravated, annoyed and frankly regret volunteering to do this job in the first place.
I feel like a cop sitting in his patrol car in the darkened parking lot of a jewelry store watching thugs pace back and forth in front of the glass picture windows.
Just. Waiting. :roll:
But a more accurate analogy might be a child care worker that has room full of toddlers. Some of which have items in their hands, and they've drawn back, like those items in their hands are about to become weapons on the nearest child with his back turned to the wielder.
If you possess the brain power to understand that, AND have the ability and respect and not feel it necessary to make a post, then I thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Because you're truly making my job easier. Thank you.
To those of you simply too stupid, aggressive, or asine to understand my exact meaning, let me put it this way:
- If you have something to say that's snippy, shitty, confrontational, or argumentative..... Just. Don't.
Please, just SHUT THE FUCK UP.
If you can't back away from your keyboard and separate yourself from the internet and all of its trolls and triggers, then you are actually the majority of the problem.
W.D. happens to be one of the most passionate people I've heard of in the music playback "realm" in a very long time. Can you/we really fault him for that?
I mean, how many of you bitchers that defend 2ch, have heard a rig that W.D. is talking about? (this is a 'mic drop question', since most are too stupid to recognize that fact, so I'm spelling it out since you're too damn dumb to have recognized this simple fact and just like to bitch. Although his troll like subject line was the perfect trigger for the weak minded and got you all in a tizzy).
Whether I, or you, agree with his position is irrelevant. But wave after wave of snippy jabs has worn on me, and seem to make him even more aggressive. (get the picture?).
Fact of the matter is, he's entitled to his opinion, as we all are. But 18 pages of this bullshit has reached my max tolerance level of bullshit.
I've tried a few times to keep the peace and be the referee, to no avail. The owner of this site has tied my hands with regard to weeding out the antagonizing posts, so it's obvious "the site" prefers to do business in this manor (not my choice, but hey, I'm not the boss). That means that members reading the thread a day, or two, or more, get to see all the literary poison and allow it to form their opinion. At that point, they now feel entitled to dump their own collective buckets of negative thoughts on this growing steaming pile of shit.
If you feel that you're immature enough to not have the mindset and willpower to scroll past this thread and find something else that you feel might actually enrich your life, then you are the problem.
To put it even more simply... for the ultimate dumbasses that aren't sure where they fit into this puzzle, at the beginning of your post, please choose one of the following numbers that best fits you, your mindset, and your post.
#1 Trolls can't troll unless the weak minded take the bait. (I want to be the weak minded superhero that conquers the troll)
#2 Trolls go silent when the bait isn't taken. (I want to be the silent one to conquer the loud boisterous one)
#3 Passionate people respond with intelligent questions. (I am interested, yet have some questions because I don't understand the technology)
Bob :|
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Bendingwave account is Restricted. (See, we do have moderation... :roll:)
Seriously folks, we're trying to keep an interesting topic going and the sniping is not helping. If you don't have anything constructive and on-topic to say, stay out of it. (Consider that an official warning.) Thanks.
And PLEASE READ this:
Please click on the --Configure-- button at the bottom of the recent topics list, check the box next to Home Theater and Video, and click Save at the bottom right.
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Hmmmm, it seems the topic of immersive audio is controversial. Henry Ford once said if I asked the people what they wanted they would have said faster horses. I get it. Here is some evidence that immersive is here to stay:
1) It is available to the "mass market" at ever decreasing price points. I just bought a NINE channel immersive receiver for less than $500 for the man cave.
2) It is backward compatible with ALL formats, 2 channel, 5 channel, and 7 channel.
3) It is NOT an either or decision. When you upgrade to immersive you KEEP the two channel option using the remote.
4) The jump from 2 channel to 9 or 10 channel may be a leap. MANY people already have 5+ channel and for them it's just a baby step.
5) Immersive is where the puck is going. Amazon, Netflix, Vudu, Sony are already streaming immersive content. UHD discs with immersive soundtracks are more common.
6) Immersive audio can be upmixed from two channel. I have already posted links from critics and engineers who prefer immersive to two channel, every time, with all music genres.
Why is this so controversial? Don't believe a witchdoctor? All good. Check out this round table of experts (at 21 min in Wilfred Van Balen discusses the development of auro 3d):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6IfhQoJ5OI
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How to get started? I wouldn't buy a receiver/processor for the main listening area without Auro 3D. If you want to get in the game at a modest price point that means a Denon or Marantz receiver:
https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/marsr7012/marantz-sr7012-9.2-ch-x-125-watts-a/v-receiver-w/heos/1.html
https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavrx4500h/denon-avr-x4500h-9.2-ch-x-125-watts-a/v-receiver-w/heos/1.html
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Speakers? If you are adding on to your current system use small direct radiators from the same brand using the auro 3d setup format (which works GREAT with atmos and dts-x.)
If you are starting from scratch Boston Acoustic are also a D&M brand and have excellent synergy. You might consider:
1) 9 or 10 of these:
https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/bosa26gba/boston-acoustics-a26-6.5-2-way-bookshelf-speaker-gloss-black-each/1.html
and a pair of these:
https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/bosasw250gba/boston-acoustics-asw250-10-250-watt-a-series-subwoofer-black/1.html
They also sell a package (7.2.4) but ceiling speakers are fine for atmos/dts-x but not that good for auro 3D. You also have the issue of big towers in your space but that is a matter of taste. If you are crossing over with a sub I don't see the need for a tower but maybe you like to listen to two channel with out the the sub engaged:
https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/bosbundle4/boston-acoustics-a-series-7.2.4-ultimate-home-theater-speaker-package/1.html
Here is a review on this series in a 5.1 setup, the reviewer basically fell in love:
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/surround-sound-speaker-systems-reviews/boston-acoustics-a-series-51-home-theater-speakers/
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BTW, if you think that Boston Acoustics A26 book shelf speaker is too "inexpensive" to be any good don't hesitate to read this review:
https://www.whathifi.com/boston-acoustics/a26/review
If that is till too much money get 5 or 7 A26 for the bed channels and then 4 Soundware speakers (that come with mounting hardware, no worries) for the height channels:
https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/bossoundwareblka/boston-acoustics-soundware-4.5-speaker-atmos-dts-x-on-wall-speaker-black-each/1.html
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If you have deeper pockets I would go with a Marantz immersive processor and 9 or 10 ACTIVE speakers. It is a bit of a PIA to have to plug them all in and run long interconnects but you can avoid buying amps and speaker wires. I use Mogami Gold XLR cables which are used in the studios and are very reasonable. Options:
One of these: https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/marav7705/marantz-av7705-11.2-ch-a/v-preamp/processor-w/heos/1.html
and for ACTIVE speakers 9 or 10 of these: https://www.amazon.com/JBL-305PMKII-Powered-Studio-Monitor/dp/B077N2GQXC/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=16Y25O4GS8CH5&keywords=jbl+305p+mkii&qid=1553090632&s=gateway&sprefix=jbl+305%2Caps%2C428&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1
or if you want to follow in the footsteps of Abbey Road Studios (but on a budget) 9 or 10 of these. Neumann is known more for microphones so I am posting a review:
https://www.prosoundnetwork.com/gear-and-technology/review-neumann-kh80-dsp-monitors
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Immersive audio at AES 2019 next week:
http://www.aes.org/events/146/workshops/?ID=6595
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Anyone attending the NAB show in Vegas next month FYI. Get a PERSONAL demo with the CEO or CTO of Auro 3D, see press release below::
April 6-11th, Auro Technologies will be attending THE annual event for broadcast, streaming and OTT….NAB Show, Las Vegas, 2019. The show will play host to all the latest technologies and the key professionals, innovators and thought leaders across the media, entertainment and technology sectors.
Attending will be Auro Technologies Rudy Van Duppen, CEO and Bert Van Daele, CTO. They will be available for appointments April 6th-11th so to book please email sales@auro-technologies.com.
Also during the show from April 8th-11th, at The Renaissance Hotel, Vegas, Auro Technologies will demo Auro-3D 9.1 and showcase our groundbreaking streaming codec, Auro®-Cx™. This will be a great way to experience its full capabilities and what sets it apart.
About the show: https://www.nabshow.com/about-nab-show/show-overview
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Well, I wanted to respond that despite the tough road for all new formats, the fact that I can go to a Cinemark theater not too awful far from my home and hear it is very enticing. And getting the technology into movie theaters that even casual audiophiles attend is a fabulous boon for this format. Would Dolby be such an ubiquitous format if its name wasn't in every movie theater in the world?
For home installation the market is much smaller, most people want a soundbar and maybe a sub. But as small as it is, the home theater market is still big enough to keep the few B&M stores left open, two channel only stores are virtually extinct. These stores are in affluent neighborhoods where people have an extra gameroom to install a home theater. Therefore the appeal for how cheap it can be falls on deaf ears. Most middle class audiophiles have talked their spouse into a couple of speakers, maybe some tiny surround models, preferably wireless, in the livingroom, or are using a spare bedroom for a dedicated two channel setup.
While very intriguing from a technology standpoint and a real option for a tiny market, widespread market development is quite doubtful. The OP is very excited about this and other products he promotes on this site. Unfortunately the effect is to give one pause as to the motives of both the content and volume of these posts.
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If you have the bucks and don't want your room look totally ridiculous with nine speakers, I would look into the new Gallo Droplet speakers. They hang from the ceiling and will give more of the modern look in your home. I think they look very Cool.
Oops, I mean awesome.
Of course , add subwoofers. :thumb:
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Unfortunately the effect is to give one pause as to the motives of both the content and volume of these posts.
The original title of the thread probably didn't help. I'm 2-channel for music (but have 11 channels for the main system for movies). As I noted earlier, once a year or so I may demo some multi-channel DSD files (have to convert to 24/88.2 with the current receiver in that system) or have fun with an old Carver C-9 Sonic Holography unit. I personally don't have a problem with anyone's preferences or enthusiasm for anything related to the hobby. I help people all the time, whether it is for 2-channel, multi-channel, computer audio, etc. I don't have to have the same preferences. Everyone should just enjoy. Ignore this thread or any other you don't like (whether it is about cables - and let's not start) or anything else. I never feel a need to convert anyone to my preferences. It's bad enough there is one of me. :lol:
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Headed to the cleaners.....
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This one will need to be scrubbed a couple of times... will have another go tomorrow.
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I have a new post about the presentation on immersive audio at the AES show in Dublin tomorrow. I'll hold off until the thread is scrubbed.
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So the topic is back in place. I swear, anyone who posts anything that helps push it back to Quarantine will a. have your posts summarily deleted and b. your account will be put in the doghouse for an unspecified period of time.
You have been warned :rules: :nono: :nono: :nono:
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Soooo, yesterday at AES 2019 in Dublin was ALL about immersive audio. You had demo's hosted by Genelec and some nice presentations.
Kimio Hamasaki presented on Auro 3D:
https://twitter.com/Genelec/status/1109043988265402370
Strategies for 3D Immersive Audio:
http://www.aes.org/events/146/tutorials/?ID=6582
Music Production for Immersive Formats:
http://www.aes.org/events/146/tutorials/?ID=6584
3D Sound Recording with 9.1 Demo's
http://www.aes.org/events/146/tutorials/?ID=6604
Immersive Audio Demystified
http://www.aes.org/events/146/pse/?ID=6730
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Why all the interest in immersive audio? Genelec was hosting demo's of immersive audio throughout all 3 days of the conference. Why would the top audio engineers be interested in hearing a demo of immersive audio hosted by one of the top speaker companies for pro's?
The only way you can answer that question is to get a demo for yourself. The WD thinks you should get a demo BEFORE making any more $$$ 2 channel investments.
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WD,
Thanks for the links and comments.
Genelec is one of my favorite companies, particularly because they pay close attention to directivity control. The Genelec S360 SAM monitor was particularly developed for the immersion audio applications and from all other aspects, appears to be an excellent speaker overall. The horizontal and vertical polar plots tell all: https://www.genelec.com/sites/default/files/s360_brochure_0.pdf
https://youtu.be/_75rItjchVM
Best,
Anand.
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I'm guessing that a potential downside for some people, is having many small speakers around the room and associated cabling, low WAF, etc.
A suggestion I have is, one way to go in the direction of immersive, but maybe maintain WAF, is try omnidirectional speakers, in either 2 channel or 3 channel configuration. 3 channel is possible with a variety of processors, including analog like the Trinaural Processor from SST, or an old McCormack MAP multi-channel preamp.
I currently run a McCormack MAP-1 preamp, with Mirage OMD-28 floorstanders, Mirage OMD-5 bookshelf speaker for center ambience fill, and small Sunfire sub for bottom fill-in. The soundstage and overall musical presentation is just phenomenal. Not the greatest WAF but tolerable. Someday I plan to upgrade (but physically downsize) to Duevel Venus or Bella, or German Physiks Unlimited, and anticipate that the sound will improve again. I've been running omni for about 7 years now and will never go back, it's not even close. If you're interested and up for a good read, see the Morrison Audio website all about point-source omni.
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In my 15.1 media room I found active speakers the way to go. I guess you could have three 5 channel amps but my active speakers are bi-amped so although you have 15 speakers it is really 30 channels of amplification. Those Genelecs would be a GREAT choice for a 9.1 + system in an auro 3d configuration.
In the man cave I went 5.4.1 due to room constraints. I have seen those mirage systems on Amazon and what appealed to me was they came with speaker mounts, were small, and would fit just about anywhere. The idea of using an omnidirectional speaker for immersive audio sounds like a GREAT match. As Atmos speakers the MX speakers would make an easy install on the ceiling vs. in ceiling speakers.
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Genelec states "Immersive Audio is a Reality"
Check out their solutions, nice overview and amazing SQ. One thing about Genelec is their speakers are relatively small and the sound is BIG. This brochure discusses the familar Atmos, DTS-X and Auro 3D formats but also the MPEG-H 3D format which is a new potential standard:
https://www.genelec.com/sites/default/files/immersive_audio_brochure_180806_web.pdf
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Immersive Audio from a soundbar? That's the claim from Sennheiser. I hope it works, I would LOVE to have a one and done solution for immersive audio:
https://www.soundguys.com/sennheiser-ambeo-3d-soundbar-21450/
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Fairly pricey, but if it works well it could replace a AVR and surround system. My guess is that it will work for some people in some rooms, but it will not replace systems with multiple good subwoofers. It is not big enough to pressurize most rooms.
https://en-us.sennheiser.com/ambeo-soundbar (https://en-us.sennheiser.com/ambeo-soundbar)
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The soundbar could probably be a do-able in my situation. Now to get rid of all my two channel speakers.
:scratch:
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Vizio has a soundbar plus two speakers and a sub for $999. WD may have already reported this.
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/vizio-514-atmos-soundbar-review
$699 on this page.
https://slickdeals.net/f/12338710-vizio-46-5-1-4-home-theater-sound-system-with-dolby-atmos-sb46514-f6-699-99
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I have 15 speakers in my media room, the idea of being able to replace them with a soundbar is at first thought "impossible". But if you could get 80% of the SQ it would be fantastic for a LOT of reasons.
Sennheiser/Ambeo technology is what was used to mix immersive audio at Abbey Road studios for Pink Floyd (in a traditional speaker setup). The fact that this is a commercial application has me curious. I guess the space is too crowded for another "format" so Sennheiser came up with a solution that solves the WAF problem in a one bar solution (not even a sub is needed). $2500 is a lot for a soundbar but if it delivers even 50% of the SQ of my current man cave rig it would be a bargain.
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It looks like High End Audio Meridian has also joined the Immersive revolution.
https://www.cepro.com/article/meridian_partnerships_aid_all_new_immersive_audio_solution
For auto.
https://www.meridian-audio.com/in-car-audio/
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JBL also.
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/cinema-market/immersive-rooms#.XKEAS_EwjIU
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JBL also.
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/cinema-market/immersive-rooms#.XKEAS_EwjIU
Now that Harman acquired Arcam Lexicon also just came out with a new immersive receiver based on an Arcam product. It lacks Auro 3D though:
https://lexicon.com/productdetail/~/product/rv-6.html
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Here at AC I see Bryston going immersive with the SP4 and now Digital Amplifier Company is going to blow out Axpona with over 25,000 watts of sheer immersive goodness. Bryston nailed top honors at the Bristol show and my money is on the 5 Channel Cherries to do the same at Axpona.
Immersive audio is just...better. :thumb:
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:thumb: :banana piano: :dance: :drums: :guitar: :rock: :bounce:
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As I go through the threads here and the systems pages (all very nice) my head explodes by the HUUUUGENESS of 2 channel. Monster amps and gigantic speakers. It is at once a tribute to the two channel fans here and also a reminder of how expensive it is to reproduce music with a limiting factor of only two speakers. These systems sound magnificent, I'm sure, but talk about WAF, good luck.
Immersive audio is just better. 10 smaller speakers can be installed discretely that engulfs you in the music in a way that is impossible for stereo.
Witchdoctor studios is modeled on the setup at Abbey Road, not very practical for most people but why not something elegant like 10 of these:
https://hometheaterreview.com/svs-prime-elevation-satellite-speaker-reviewed/
or these:
http://jtrspeakers.com/slanted-8ht-lp.html
or these:
https://www.orbaudio.com/collections/individual-speakers-subwoofers
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As I go through the threads here and the systems pages (all very nice) my head explodes by the HUUUUGENESS of 2 channel. Monster amps and gigantic speakers. It is at once a tribute to the two channel fans here and also a reminder of how expensive it is to reproduce music with a limiting factor of only two speakers. These systems sound magnificent, I'm sure, but talk about WAF, good luck.
Immersive audio is just better. 10 smaller speakers can be installed discretely that engulfs you in the music in a way that is impossible for stereo.
Witchdoctor studios is modeled on the setup at Abbey Road, not very practical for most people but why not something elegant like 10 of these:
https://hometheaterreview.com/svs-prime-elevation-satellite-speaker-reviewed/
or these:
http://jtrspeakers.com/slanted-8ht-lp.html
or these:
https://www.orbaudio.com/collections/individual-speakers-subwoofers
The JTRs are awesome for HT as well as 2-ch !! I have a pair of 210RTs, and will be upgrading to 212RTs someday soon. Check them out:
http://www.jtrspeakers.com/noesis-212rt.html
Massive SPL and the lowest distortion I've measured with REW to date. Worth a look if you want serious performance, incredible bass (no sub needed), and astounding clarity top-to-bottom.
- Tommy O (the Cherry Amp guy)
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Thanks Tommy O, your joint demo at Axpona is going to blow the doors off. I hope you can live stream or post a video.
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Here’s a thread about the 9.8.6 system we will be demoing at AXPONA this weekend:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=163293.0
More than 25,000 watts behind this, and more than 1700 square feet!
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Here’s a thread about the 9.8.6 system we will be demoing at AXPONA this weekend:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=163293.0
More than 25,000 watts behind this, and more than 1700 square feet!
Fantastic! Please post some pics and maybe a video clip after the show, wish I was there.
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Universal Music agrees with the witchdoctor (of course) and atmos music mixes are on the way:
“Instead of mixing and producing music to speakers, we are doing it to [physical] space,” said Michael Frey, UMG’s president of operations, global studios and technologies. “And then if we want, we can actually move it around through space. The heart of what we're trying to bring to life is a much bigger palette.”
https://www.billboard.com/biz/articles/news/record-labels/8512860/universal-music-group-looks-to-the-future-of-sound-mixing
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Fantastic! Please post some pics and maybe a video clip after the show, wish I was there.
Details and pics are on the thread:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=163293.0
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Unlike traditional stereo mixes, Atmos Music provides a "you-are-there" quality, with tracks mixed so that each song is experienced differently depending on where you are in the room.
In other words, its just better :thumb:
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Amazon is now streaming music encoded in Dolby Atmos though its Amazon Music HD service. Say what? I have been saying that immersive is "just better" but I'm only a witchdoctor. Now it seems Dolby, Amazon, and quite a few artists feel the same way! Amazon is pitching a $200 Atmos smart speaker to get Atmos into the hands of the masses. For those of you lacking an "immersive" system don't bother with that speaker but the price of 9 channels receivers has come way down. My 9 channels Onkyo RZ630 was less than $400! Check this out:
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/amazon-music-hd-new-echo-studio-smart-speaker-support-dolby-atmos-encoded-music
Video of user experience on IMMERSIVE music:
https://youtu.be/tIaEj_VCPPo
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The 147th AES show was focused on IMMERSIVE audio just concluded October 19th 2019 and the MAIN theme was immersive audio is ALL that was going on. Right now Dolby Atmos and Sony's new 360D and the feeling at the show was that stereo is DEAD and everything is being remixed and the studios are focusing on IMMERSIVE audio. This is not surround if you are confused. Immersive audio can be experienced in your room with a traditional 5.1 surround setup and then adding additional height channels high on the wall or in the ceiling.
Check out this CEDIA podcast:
https://www.cedia.net/insights/cedia-blog-detail/blog/2019/10/25/the-cedia-podcast-episode-147-the-latest-in-audio-engineering
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The 147th AES show was focused on IMMERSIVE audio just concluded October 19th 2019 and the MAIN theme was immersive audio is ALL that was going on. Right now Dolby Atmos and Sony's new 360D and the feeling at the show was that stereo is DEAD and everything is being remixed and the studios are focusing on IMMERSIVE audio. This is not surround if you are confused. Immersive audio can be experienced in your room with a traditional 5.1 surround setup and then adding additional height channels high on the wall or in the ceiling.
Check out this CEDIA podcast:
https://www.cedia.net/insights/cedia-blog-detail/blog/2019/10/25/the-cedia-podcast-episode-147-the-latest-in-audio-engineering
We will be doing an immersive demo at AXPONA in April. Can you suggest some tracks to play? Thanks.
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We will be doing an immersive demo at AXPONA in April. Can you suggest some tracks to play? Thanks.
Hi Tommy, I think Riders on the Storm sounds great in immersive as that thunder in the beginning of the song comes from above you. Any kind of electronic dance music will literally sound exactly like you are standing in the middle of a night club or a rave. Big band music like Sing Sing Sing will have your hair blowing back like the guy in the Maxell Tape ad. I think demoing something recorded in a live setting is very important in an immersive mix as you feel like the audience is all around you. Queen Live at Wembley always knocks my sox off. I subscribe to Qello.com which has hundreds of concert videos if you are also using a PJ in the demo. Turn down the lights, fire up Freddy on the big screen and add your immersive upmixer and you are there.
You should absolutely get the new Atmos mix of Abbey Road as this is where the puck seems to be headed as more and more recordings will be released remixed for atmos or Sony 360.
As for your speaker placement I would use 5.1 bed channels and add 2 front height channels above the L-R speakers and then 2 rear height channels. Atmos places rear height channels at the back of the room in line with the front L-R channels. Auro 3D, and DTS place the rear height channels above the surrounds. I would recommend using book shelves for surrounds. To get started anyone who has a 7.1 system can take the rear 2 speakers and place them above the front L-R channels and now you have a 5.1.2 immersive system. I would avoid replicating ceiling speakers as I think they are a barrier to entry for most people thinking about an immersive setup. Bookshelve speakers work great as height channels mounted high on the wall.
I think you have a competitive advantage in that your amps run cool and are rack friendly.
For a demo I would also think about starting a familiar track in two channel and after you get that first smile hit the remote and switch right into the immerive upmixer and watch the smiles turned into jaws dropping. Please post your thoughts.I am very interested in your take on this and read the reviews from your last demo with the 5 channel cherries.
https://youtu.be/X8uPIquE5Oo
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Also VERY important, DTS-X let's you be flexible with speaker placement and we seem to be moving toward a lot more 16 channel processor like Brystons SP4. For music I personnally think wide channels add a lot to an immersive mix. If you have access to a 16 channel processor I would go with a 9.2.4 setup and include the wide channels. The dolby surround upmixer doesn't use the wides but you can engage them using the DTS Neural X upmixer.
If you are partnering with audiokinesis ask duke about using that 4 unit subwoofer array he has, that would be the cheryy on your 5 channel cherry immersive cake IMO.
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I listened to Kenny Wayne Shepherd's new album (Traveler) on Qobuz so I decided to pick it up and seen it was available on Blu-ray so I got it. I'm very happy with the atmos mix because it sounds like a good 2ch mix with air and space in my room.
TV screen pic.
(http://i.imgur.com/Q4BYivJ.jpg) (https://imgur.com/Q4BYivJ)
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Thanks for the heads up, I'll order it. :thumb:
The Ultra HD version on Amazon sounds damn good too.
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I didn't realize immersive audio has its own category at the Grammy's. From the Immersive Audio Album website:
Immersive audio is the three-dimensional approach to audio storytelling that is taking sound to new heights. While traditional “surround sound” exists in a horizontal plane around the listener, immersive sound refers to an expanded sonic field that quite literally immerses the listener in a multi-dimensional soundscape. The Recording Academy as of 2019 has renamed their Grammy for Best Surround Sound Album to “Best Immersive Audio Album” in order to include the many immersive formats beyond surround sound – such as Auro, Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, and more.
You can see the 2020 Grammy candidates and a lot of good info here:
https://immersiveaudioalbum.com
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Hi Tommy, I think Riders on the Storm sounds great in immersive as that thunder in the beginning of the song comes from above you. Any kind of electronic dance music will literally sound exactly like you are standing in the middle of a night club or a rave. Big band music like Sing Sing Sing will have your hair blowing back like the guy in the Maxell Tape ad. I think demoing something recorded in a live setting is very important in an immersive mix as you feel like the audience is all around you. Queen Live at Wembley always knocks my sox off. I subscribe to Qello.com which has hundreds of concert videos if you are also using a PJ in the demo. Turn down the lights, fire up Freddy on the big screen and add your immersive upmixer and you are there.
You should absolutely get the new Atmos mix of Abbey Road as this is where the puck seems to be headed as more and more recordings will be released remixed for atmos or Sony 360.
As for your speaker placement I would use 5.1 bed channels and add 2 front height channels above the L-R speakers and then 2 rear height channels. Atmos places rear height channels at the back of the room in line with the front L-R channels. Auro 3D, and DTS place the rear height channels above the surrounds. I would recommend using book shelves for surrounds. To get started anyone who has a 7.1 system can take the rear 2 speakers and place them above the front L-R channels and now you have a 5.1.2 immersive system. I would avoid replicating ceiling speakers as I think they are a barrier to entry for most people thinking about an immersive setup. Bookshelve speakers work great as height channels mounted high on the wall.
I think you have a competitive advantage in that your amps run cool and are rack friendly.
For a demo I would also think about starting a familiar track in two channel and after you get that first smile hit the remote and switch right into the immerive upmixer and watch the smiles turned into jaws dropping. Please post your thoughts.I am very interested in your take on this and read the reviews from your last demo with the 5 channel cherries.
https://youtu.be/X8uPIquE5Oo
Here's the thread about our AXPONA 2019 demo, which was a 9.8.6 channel system:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=163293.0
We'd like to gather content for next year ASAP. Thanks for any help you can provide with this!
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Sure, I'll post some links later. The BIG push at AES a few weeks ago was the labels pivot to immersive audio with Dolby Atmos and Sony 360 leading the charge. If you could partner woth either of them using THEIR content it would be intersting. You would likely have their help in promoting your demo which wouldn't hurt. Maybe an e-mail blast, a mention in their newsletter or SM pages. Sony is launching late fall and partnering with Tidal, Deezer and Nugs.net. They are making a BIG push and would likely be happy to co-promote with you at the show. If you like public speaking maybe even host a roundtable with you, Sony/Dolby, and one of their streaming service partners:
https://www.sony.com/electronics/360-reality-audio
As for Dolby they have music content on blueray available now. If you were doing a demo of one movie clip try Alita:
"There are several key moments that are worthy of mention, the alleyway battle, the barroom brawl which segues into the underground battle with Grewishka and the final Motorball arena sequence. Each contain a host of swirling effects, nearfield pans, and ambience that comes together in a resplendent blend of room traversing sound that shows what this format is capable of. I consider this Dolby Atmos mix to be involving, entertaining, and among the best that I have heard." Mark Henninger
For music I would go with a cut from the Abbey Road atmos mix
"The Atmos (on Abbey Road) is just the icing on the cake, for anyone with an Atmos set up this is an absolute must have set.
Atmos just allows the music to breathe, and without doubt you hear things that you have never heard before, Incredible.Giles has done a great job with the Atmos he hasn't just put sounds anywhere just because he can." HD Movie Source
As for Sony 360 tracks I think you will have to wait until they drop them which could be anytime.
I would also recommend one demo using the upmixer emphasizing thie will work with music mixed in stereo too and that you don't need to replace music you already own. Maybe a cut you typically hear at an audio show that people are familiar with on a regular CD, start it in 2 channel and then one button on the remote and transition to immersive.
It will be intersting if you can get Dolby or Sony on board too. Keep us posted.
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Here is the link for more Atmos music titles:
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/experience/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-music-titles.html
and Auro 3D music/movie titles:
https://www.auro-3d.com/consumer/bluray
There are about 1000 new tracks to be released by Sony soon too but who knows if it will be in time for your demo.
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If you want to blow your audience away and if your subs can handle it, AVS Forum has "The Ultimate List of BASS in Movies w/ Frequency Charts". Click on the movie to see the graph.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/2763785-ultimate-list-bass-movies-w-frequency-charts.html (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/2763785-ultimate-list-bass-movies-w-frequency-charts.html)
Blade Runner 2049 and the beginning of Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) will bottom out woofers if your calibration is wrong (don't ask me how I know)
Blade Runner 2049 has powerful Dolby reference level bass from 15 Hz to 35 Hz
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=200278&size=huge)
Free Dolby Atmos demo videos can be downloaded at:
Demo World (https://www.demo-world.eu/2d-demo-trailers-hd/)
Demolandia (https://www.demolandia.net/cinema/dolby-demo-trailers-hd.html)
Official Dolby Website (https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/dolby-atmos-trailers.html)
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I listened to Kenny Wayne Shepherd's new album (Traveler) on Qobuz so I decided to pick it up and seen it was available on Blu-ray so I got it. I'm very happy with the atmos mix because it sounds like a good 2ch mix with air and space in my room.
TV screen pic.
(http://i.imgur.com/Q4BYivJ.jpg) (https://imgur.com/Q4BYivJ)
I got the album yesterday THANKS! I agree, the atmos mix is done well. I thought my days of buying physical media were over but until they start streaming the atmos mixes I'll be buying more. just ordered Kraftwek 3D in atmos/blue ray.
http://kraftwerk.com/catalogue/index-BLUray.html
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just ordered Kraftwek 3D in atmos/blue ray.
http://kraftwerk.com/catalogue/index-BLUray.html
I've had it for awhile, very good mix.
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Nugs.net is launching IMMERSIVE audio in partnership with Sony "360 Reality Audio".
All you need is a set of headphones to try it out. Here are the shows that are available. I think "Volunteers" sounded MUCH better in 360:
The following shows/albums are currently available in 360 audio to nugs.net HiFi subscribers.
Bill Withers:
-Just as I am
Billy Joel:
-Piano Man
Dead & Company:
-12/2/17
The Disco Biscuits:
-Trance Fusion Radio Vol. 3
-12/31/18
-4/17/15
Herbie Hancock:
-Headhunters
Jefferson Airplane:
-Volunteers
Miles Davis:
-Bitches Brew
-In a Silent Way
-Kind of Blue
-Live - Evil
The String Cheese Incident:
-5/4/19
-6/29/19
Umphrey's McGee:
-It's Not Us
-8/11/18
-8/18/18
-8/24/18
https://subscribe.nugs.net/?ccode=S360&nnpromo=S360PROMO&utm_source=nugsnewsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2019_sony360&utm_content=110619_launch
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I've had it for awhile, very good mix.
So I just watched it for the first time last might, excellent. They did a GREAT job with the atmos mix. My PJ does 3D so it really added to the feeling of being at the concert.
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Tidal is now streaming Sony 360 immersive format for headphone listening and very soon Amazon HD will be streaming Atmos music, check this out:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/immersive-audio-aes
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I have a denon avrx 4500 on the way today. I can't wait to play with the DTX and Auro 3D codex's.
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how's it working out for you? looking at this one. thx
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I really like the Denon. It was well worth the money.
I have not adding a bunch of surround speakers yet just running 5.2 but it packs a nice punch. DAC isn't horrible either for easy streaming. Music actually sounds very nice.
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I believe the OP is on the right track for two-channel music listening. You need two things to make music sound like music -- a humungous soundstage and incredible dynamics. Two speakers simply won't get the job done. Look at it this way -- if you go to a small jazz club, it's gonna have at a bunch of speakers from the ceiling to the floor, and the band will sometimes bring additional speakers for specific instruments. At home, you're trying to duplicate live music with only two speakers, and often with a pair of punk-ass bookshelf speakers. Nah.
Audiophiles should learn lessons from the HT enthusiasts with regard to their approach to bass (i.e., multiple subs) and presence speakers along the front stage, but not behind the listener. Placing speakers behind the listener for music is artificial.
Some audiophiles have already discovered the benefit of multiple subs and swarms. I'd like to see audiophiles experiment with presence speakers to get more ambient sound from their systems.