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Industry Circles => Sonic Craft => Topic started by: Stimpy on 7 Dec 2017, 02:55 pm

Title: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: Stimpy on 7 Dec 2017, 02:55 pm
Bypass capacitors?  What are they, and why use them?  Is there a sonic or electrical benefit, or both, to using bypass capacitors?  And if it's good to use them, is there a formula for determining the correct value of a bypass?  Also, should the voltage of the bypass capacitor be greater/higher than the capacitor it is bypassing?  Any other qualifiers for bypassing?

I know this is a broad range of questions.  But, I read these same questions, almost everyday on various audio forums, and I truly don't know the answers.  For my own benefit, I would love an explanation, if possible?  Any insights, from anyone who would care to contribute, would be greatly appreciated.  Especially if you've used bypass capacitors, and would like to elaborate on their benefit (sound improvement)?

Thanks!   :D

Edit:

I'd like to share any responses in this thread with the Audio Karma Forum, if OK?  This same discussion is happening there too.  Maybe I'll link this thread, when it get's interesting?

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: GETRDUN on 22 Dec 2017, 05:11 pm
From what I've read on speaker crossovers, the formula for bypassing is 1% of the total value of the cap you want to bypass. Tony Gee seems to like the .01uF/3000V Cornell Dubilier 940C caps now, even better than the Vishay MKP1837 caps that used to be his favorites. He says to use them everywhere!

Perhaps someone like Jeff G. could give us a better explanation on this!  :thumb:
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: Stimpy on 23 Dec 2017, 12:27 am
Thanks GetRDun,

The 1% formula is the only one I've read about too.  But, I seem to just buy either 0.01uF or 0.10uF bypass caps, and be done with it.  Maybe that isn't optimal, but its worked so far.  Now, I was hoping Jeff might comment, though I'm sure he's very busy this time of year.  As such, I'm willing to wait for his input, as I know it'll be worth it.   :D

Merry Christmas

Oh yea, I've been looking at the CD 940C caps.  I've got the Mouser page open now.  Deciding...
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 23 Dec 2017, 12:45 am
Bypass capacitors?  What are they, and why use them?  Is there a sonic or electrical benefit, or both, to using bypass capacitors?  And if it's good to use them, is there a formula for determining the correct value of a bypass?  Also, should the voltage of the bypass capacitor be greater/higher than the capacitor it is bypassing?  Any other qualifiers for bypassing?

I know this is a broad range of questions.  But, I read these same questions, almost everyday on various audio forums, and I truly don't know the answers.  For my own benefit, I would love an explanation, if possible?  Any insights, from anyone who would care to contribute, would be greatly appreciated.  Especially if you've used bypass capacitors, and would like to elaborate on their benefit (sound improvement)?

Thanks!   :D

Edit:

I'd like to share any responses in this thread with the Audio Karma Forum, if OK?  This same discussion is happening there too.  Maybe I'll link this thread, when it get's interesting?

Thanks again.
Capacitors are a way to store electrical energy, its not hi efficiency methoid for audio, but its the usual oldfashioned way. Other way to do power supplies are the inductive power supply as used by the Italian builder Bartholomeo Aloia, there is a AC member that have a Aloia pre/power set.

Inductive power supplies of course use inductors to store energy, I was told on the ear they are much more powerful than regular capacitive PS.
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: GETRDUN on 23 Dec 2017, 01:54 am
Thanks GetRDun,

The 1% formula is the only one I've read about too.  But, I seem to just buy either 0.01uF or 0.10uF bypass caps, and be done with it.  Maybe that isn't optimal, but its worked so far.  Now, I was hoping Jeff might comment, though I'm sure he's very busy this time of year.  As such, I'm willing to wait for his input, as I know it'll be worth it.   :D

Merry Christmas

Oh yea, I've been looking at the CD 940C caps.  I've got the Mouser page open now.  Deciding...

You're welcome Stimpy! I'm also looking forward to reading what Jeff has to say! Let me know if you happen to order the CD caps from mouser. I'd like to know what you think.

Merry Christmas to you as well  :xmas:
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: rpf on 23 Dec 2017, 04:43 am
Bypass capacitors throw off the timing between the drivers. When I removed them from my Cronus Magnum amp, my speakers gained a great deal of coherency, i.e., the treble info no longer arrived before the mid-range music. (My speakers are time-aligned, phase coherent models).

I would never use them, but rather seek to increase the quality of the main cap.
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: Stimpy on 23 Dec 2017, 01:23 pm
Bypass capacitors throw off the timing between the drivers...I would never use them, but rather seek to increase the quality of the main cap.

That's why I hope Jeff will respond.  Sonic Craft manufacturers and sells SoniCap Gen II and Platinum capacitors.  Both are typically used as bypass caps.  Why market these, if they're a downgrade in audio quality (which I don't think they are).  There's definitely a Love/Hate vibe about bypass caps, which I don't understand?  I suppose because I've never experienced anything negative in their use.  Some have, and have no desire to try them again.
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: rpf on 23 Dec 2017, 02:16 pm
Sonic Craft manufacturers and sells SoniCap Gen II and Platinum capacitors.  Both are typically used as bypass caps.  Why market these, if they're a downgrade in audio quality (which I don't think they are). 

Both of those capacitors are used in other ways than as bypass ones, i.e., it's not that the capacitors in themselves are a downgrade in quality (though of course there are better - and more expensive - ones). Smaller value caps are faster in output than larger value ones and therefore their information reaches the speaker drivers sooner than that of the larger value capacitors. They may indeed perhaps extend the frequency response of the unit they're used in (or just add "air") but at the cost of smearing the timing. People are more or less sensitive to timing issues so, as usual, it becomes a personal preference.
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: GETRDUN on 26 Dec 2017, 06:46 pm
Both of those capacitors are used in other ways than as bypass ones, i.e., it's not that the capacitors in themselves are a downgrade in quality (though of course there are better - and more expensive - ones). Smaller value caps are faster in output than larger value ones and therefore their information reaches the speaker drivers sooner than that of the larger value capacitors. They may indeed perhaps extend the frequency response of the unit they're used in (or just add "air") but at the cost of smearing the timing. People are more or less sensitive to timing issues so, as usual, it becomes a personal preference.

That is interesting! If only there were one simple formula/components to make that perfect sound! :thumb: I've went down that road some years ago with trying different interconnects, speaker, and USB cables, and noticed changes in quality for better and worse! I also know that from my own personal listening experience, that it comes down to the components that are in the complete system! I don't think that one could hear much difference in a cheaply built system versus a well designed and of higher quality system! "Not saying that less money versus more money is worse" but rather design and quality!!! But usually, you get what you pay for!  :green:

Now a few questions on the bypass caps: Suppose one would take the cheaper Bennic, Solen, or Parts Express film brand caps and use them in the passive crossovers with high quality built drivers, will one notice a difference in sound quality versus using Duelund capacitors?

How about if one likes the sound of bypass caps, should one choose Polypropylene/Teflon, Aluminum film, copper foil, etc.??? And will these different types make enough difference to hear and say that is the magic cap?

How about the Duelund CAST-Cu-Ag Hybrid Loudspeaker Capacitor 100VDC.  Technical specifications (according to manufacturer): "Inside the Duelund CAST hybrid silver-copper capacitor there are two capacitors: a main copper foil capacitor that is bypassed by a small silver capacitor. They are both potted together. The lead-outs are intertwined from both the pure copper foil capacitor & the pure silver bypass capacitor hidden within the CAST potting. Premium VSF-CAST speaker capacitor; pure copper / silver; handmade in Denmark."

BTW, I looked up distributors in the USA for Duelund, and can you believe that they list Parts Connexion, who by the way is IN Canada, a USA distributor?  :duh: Now if you are lucky enough to have low valued caps in your tweeter circuit, you may be able to upgrade to these Duelund caps for maybe under $2,000.00 for a 2nd order filter! They better be able to sing me lullabies each night before bed-time!  :lol:

Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: Stimpy on 27 Dec 2017, 02:25 am
Both of those capacitors are used in other ways than as bypass ones, i.e., it's not that the capacitors in themselves are a downgrade in quality (though of course there are better - and more expensive - ones). Smaller value caps are faster in output than larger value ones and therefore their information reaches the speaker drivers sooner than that of the larger value capacitors. They may indeed perhaps extend the frequency response of the unit they're used in (or just add "air") but at the cost of smearing the timing. People are more or less sensitive to timing issues so, as usual, it becomes a personal preference.

Danny Richie stated something similar on his board.  He liked using bypass capacitors, on larger values, as he felt it improved the discharge rate of the cap.  I believe Danny felt that it improved the transient response of the speaker; the perceived 'speed' of the speaker.
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: HsvHeelFan on 27 Dec 2017, 03:29 am
Capacitors store energy.  They charge and discharge.  They're equations for how fast they charge/discharge.

Larger caps charge and discharge slower and at lower frequencies.

Smaller caps charge and discharge faster and at higher frequencies.

In classic power supply design, large caps and small caps are used.  They're primarily used to  eliminate ripple noise on the outgoing voltage.  The important thing is that the voltage be stable under load.

In my experience, you need to know what noise/ripple that you're trying to get rid of before you can pick the correct capacitor value.  An oscilloscope really helps for this.   You can see how much ripple amplitude you have on the line with a voltmeter set to AC voltage, but that won't tell you the frequency.

Here is a webpage on Capacitor basics:

http://www.cmm.gov.mo/eng/exhibition/secondfloor/MoreInfo/2_3_5_ChargingCapacitor.html (http://www.cmm.gov.mo/eng/exhibition/secondfloor/MoreInfo/2_3_5_ChargingCapacitor.html)

Make sure that the cap you use exceeds the maximum voltage expected. Make sure you have some safety factor built-in to the cap voltage rating that you choose.    Also choose fairly tight tolerance capacitors if you want consistency between caps.   The caps are manufactured and then they're evaluated and graded for tolerance once they've been fabricated (resistor tolerance is done the same way). 

HsvHeelFan
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: taww on 28 Dec 2017, 09:29 am
I have not experimented with bypassing in speaker crossovers much, mostly power supplies and coupling caps in line-level electronics. As a general rule I am not a fan of bypassing in signal applications because you can often hear the effect of having two disparate capacitors with different sonic signatures, and the sound becomes less coherent. This is particularly true if the capacitors are of different types, most extremely electrolytics bypassed by a film, because the ESR/ESL/etc. are so different.

That said, it is a matter of taste, and some things will sound better with a bypass. My Monarchy NM24 tube DAC/line stage came with 3.3uF Wima MPK10's bypassed by .01uF polystyrenes. I took the polystyrenes out because I felt the treble and midrange were a little disjointed - the treble was a bit more prominent and the midrange sounded a step behind. I liked the sound better w/o the bypass, but my wife (an oboist with better HF hearing than me) commented woodwinds lost some of their detail and natural brightness - the polystyrenes definitely improved resolution of highs and harmonics.

And in my Bryston B60 integrated I'm actually breaking my rule big-time by using Mundorf E-cap bi-polar electrolytics bypassed by a Vishay MPK1837 with modified leads (as detailed here: http://audiophile-musings.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-vishay-mkp-1837-review-and.html (http://audiophile-musings.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-vishay-mkp-1837-review-and.html)). I used Cardas litz wire as the lead, very thin (I think 36 gauge) to add a little resistance to the Vishay and get the ESR a little closer to the Mundorf. And I have to say, it sounds really good! The amp sounds fantastic this way... I can't say it's better than a single high-quality film cap (probably not) but it matches the sound of the amp well and there isn't enough room inside the slim chassis for a big film cap anyway.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CzR2AofUcAAGLBe.jpg:small)

So yeah, the only rule is there is no hard rule. :) Experimentation is key but you can do some basic calculations to get a sense of where the effects might fall. The 1% rule is fine but I prefer to factor the circuit load and use the standard 1/2*pi*R*C formula to determine where the corner frequency of the bypass cap will be, and that's where you can expect its effects to kick in. In the case of the Bryston, the preamp drives an effective load of around 8.5k ohms, so the .01uF Vishay kicks in around 1.8kHz. That's not a bad spot, not too far off from where you'd want your crossover frequency to be in a 2-way speaker. I'd avoid bypasses that kick in right in the midrange or lower, it has a higher chance of sounding phasey or discombobulated. Again, YMMV.
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: taww on 28 Dec 2017, 09:39 am
BTW in my Ayre integrated I was using 4.7uF Russian PETP (Mylar) films bypassed with the .01uF polystyrenes I took out of my DAC, because Mylar for sure needs the help in the upper frequencies. It sounded ok this way but the top end was a tad too fast and crisp relative to the midrange. I replaced this with 2.7uF Jantzen Alumen Z-caps with no bypass and this is overall the best of the few caps I've tried. It is so silky smooth and full yet detailed and dynamic. Yes, the top end could be a little faster and more extended with a polystyrene or Teflon bypass (I'd probably go for 2200pF here given the circuit impedance) but it's bright enough as is and I don't really feel the need to muck around with the sound further right now. At some point I might try a Rel-cap RTE polystyrene, maybe not...

p.s. So far I've found Humble Homemade Hifi's capacitor descriptions to be quite convergent with my own listening, even though he is testing it in loudspeakers and I'm using them in line-level applications.
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: Stimpy on 29 Dec 2017, 03:04 am
And in my Bryston B60 integrated I'm actually breaking my rule big-time by using Mundorf E-cap bi-polar electrolytics bypassed by a Vishay MPK1837 with modified leads (as detailed here: http://audiophile-musings.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-vishay-mkp-1837-review-and.html (http://audiophile-musings.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-vishay-mkp-1837-review-and.html)). I used Cardas litz wire as the lead, very thin (I think 36 gauge) to add a little resistance to the Vishay and get the ESR a little closer to the Mundorf. And I have to say, it sounds really good! The amp sounds fantastic this way... I can't say it's better than a single high-quality film cap (probably not) but it matches the sound of the amp well and there isn't enough room inside the slim chassis for a big film cap anyway.

I have a friend that was recapping sets of Acoustic Research AR9 and AR90 speakers.  He'd tried several well known and respected poly caps, and didn't like their sound on the upper dome midrange.  Too strident.  He could only listen a few minutes before ear fatigue set in.  So finally, at my urging, he tried the Mundorf E-Caps, and loved them.  He also added a Vishay bypass, and liked that combination even more.

p.s. So far I've found Humble Homemade Hifi's capacitor descriptions to be quite convergent with my own listening, even though he is testing it in loudspeakers and I'm using them in line-level applications.

I haven't tried many of Tony's recommendations yet.  I don't have that many pairs of speakers!  But, I have tried Mundorf EVO Oils and Supremes, in my AR90's.  Not much playing time yet, as I'm still refinishing the cabinets.  But what I have heard, is very promising. 

I also just recapped my AR58S speakers.  This time I used ClarityCap CSA caps on the tweeters, and ESA caps on the midrange domes.  For those caps, the Homemade HiFi comments were 100% spot on to what I was hearing.  Warm, but veiled, and rolled off in the upper mids and treble, to me.  Exactly as Tony said.  I'll give them a few more weeks of burn in before I decide to add bypass caps, since Tony seems to think that helps with the Clarity's.  If the bypass caps still fail to elevate them, I guess it'll be time to order more Mundorf's from Jeff...!   :thumb:
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: GETRDUN on 4 Jan 2018, 12:18 am
I have a friend that was recapping sets of Acoustic Research AR9 and AR90 speakers.  He'd tried several well known and respected poly caps, and didn't like their sound on the upper dome midrange.  Too strident.  He could only listen a few minutes before ear fatigue set in.  So finally, at my urging, he tried the Mundorf E-Caps, and loved them.  He also added a Vishay bypass, and liked that combination even more.

I haven't tried many of Tony's recommendations yet.  I don't have that many pairs of speakers!  But, I have tried Mundorf EVO Oils and Supremes, in my AR90's.  Not much playing time yet, as I'm still refinishing the cabinets.  But what I have heard, is very promising. 

I also just recapped my AR58S speakers.  This time I used ClarityCap CSA caps on the tweeters, and ESA caps on the midrange domes.  For those caps, the Homemade HiFi comments were 100% spot on to what I was hearing.  Warm, but veiled, and rolled off in the upper mids and treble, to me.  Exactly as Tony said.  I'll give them a few more weeks of burn in before I decide to add bypass caps, since Tony seems to think that helps with the Clarity's.  If the bypass caps still fail to elevate them, I guess it'll be time to order more Mundorf's from Jeff...!   :thumb:

I'd be interested to know how you rate the Clarity caps versus the Mundorf's in your high and midrange circuits? What series Mundorf caps will you compare to the Clarity CSA/ESA? I hope that Jeff G will comment soon! I imagine he was busy for the Christmas and New Year holidays.
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: Stimpy on 4 Jan 2018, 10:12 pm
I'd be interested to know how you rate the Clarity caps versus the Mundorf's in your high and midrange circuits? What series Mundorf caps will you compare to the Clarity CSA/ESA? I hope that Jeff G will comment soon! I imagine he was busy for the Christmas and New Year holidays.

It'll be some time before I can do the comparison, but I'll definitely post concerning what differences I hear.  My AR58S speakers are already recapped, but I have to complete the refinish on my AR90 cabinets, before I can listen to those again.

As to the caps, the 58's use a 3.9uF CSA bypassed with a Dayton 0.1uF Film & Foil cap.  The 1.5" dome mid has a 25uF ESA cap.  No bypass there.  The shunt values are all Bennic NPE's, bypassed with 0.1 Dayton Film & Foils.

Now, my AR90's are a bit more complicated than the 58's, with 4 series capacitors, as opposed to the 2 series caps in the 58's.  The 4 series caps are 4uF, 6uF, 24uF and 80uF.  They are made up of Mundorf EVO Oil capacitors.  The 4 is a 3.9 EVO Oil and a 0.1 Auricap.  The 6 is a 3.9 EVO Oil and a 2.2 Mundorf Supreme.  The 24 is a 22 EVO Oil and a 2.2 Supreme Silver/Oil.  The 80 is a 33 and a 47 EVO Oil, with a Supreme 0.1 bypass.  The shunt caps are Axon True Caps, again with Dayton 0.1 Film & Foil caps.

So, both the 58's and 90's have the same tweeters and dome upper mids.  Very similar paper cone drivers for the rest.  When the speakers are finished, the comparisons should be worthwhile.  My system primarily uses a Yamaha RX-A3030 A/V receiver, for preamp and surround duties.  Sources are a XBOX One, a Sony Blu-Ray player, and a Pioneer CD player, with SACD and DVD-A capabilities.  Amps are a rebuilt Hafler DH500, 2 Amber Series 70 amps, and a couple of NAD 2155's, if needed.  Oh yea, a Sonographe SG-3, with a Grado Signature 8MZ cartridge, for LP's.
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: GETRDUN on 5 Jan 2018, 04:12 am
I'm curious as to why you would use mixed values for the 6, 24, and 80uF caps? I was under the impression that using the same values to get the target value was fine, such as (3) 2uF caps to make the 6uF value or (4) 6uF caps paralleled to make the 24uF value, but using other values outside of this may cause audible effects! I stand to be corrected if this is not the case!

I'm also wondering if substituting the Dayton .1uF caps with say a Cornell Dubilier 940C / 0,01uF / 3000VDC, like Tony Gee suggests, would be an improvement?

FWIW, I have been told that by using the Jupiter copper foil caps in a speaker crossover circuit is not the best, rather the Jupiter VT Round caps would be the way to go! Definitely not the cheapest upgrade..lol

Thanks again for sharing your builds and mods!  :thumb:   
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: mikeeastman on 5 Jan 2018, 01:18 pm
I think you have it backward, the Jupiter copper foil caps are better than the VT caps. I used the Jupiter foil caps to replace the Sonicaps in my speaker crossovers, pricey but  a very nice improvement.
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: GETRDUN on 5 Jan 2018, 02:03 pm
I think you have it backward, the Jupiter copper foil caps are better than the VT caps. I used the Jupiter foil caps to replace the Sonicaps in my speaker crossovers, pricey but  a very nice improvement.

I was actually told from Chris (CEO of Jupiter Condenser) that in his opinion, he preferred the sound better from the VT caps versus the Copper foil caps in speaker crossovers!
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: Stimpy on 5 Jan 2018, 02:37 pm
I'm curious as to why you would use mixed values for the 6, 24, and 80uF caps? I was under the impression that using the same values to get the target value was fine, such as (3) 2uF caps to make the 6uF value or (4) 6uF caps paralleled to make the 24uF value, but using other values outside of this may cause audible effects! I stand to be corrected if this is not the case!

While some brands of capacitors have a wider range of available values, that would have exactly matched my AR speakers, Mundorf didn't.  So, I had to parallel caps, to match up what I needed.  Plus, I was (somewhat) following Jeff's recommendations, and Jeff didn't seem to think 'mixed values' were an issue.  Good enough for me.

I'm also wondering if substituting the Dayton .1uF caps with say a Cornell Dubilier 940C / 0,01uF / 3000VDC, like Tony Gee suggests, would be an improvement?

Yea, I've been considering the CD 940C's.  If I add a bypass to the ESA in my 58's, I'll probably try them.

Thanks again for sharing your builds and mods!  :thumb:

You are welcome.  My pleasure.
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: GETRDUN on 10 Jan 2018, 07:28 pm
I imagine that Jeff G is still busy or on vacation? Do any of you guys know the telephone number to SonicCraft? I was looking on that site, but no contact number!  :?
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 10 Jan 2018, 07:55 pm
You can reach the Sonic Craft office guys at:
http://www.soniccraft.com/contact_us.php
Or in the DIYaudio.
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: GETRDUN on 10 Jan 2018, 08:26 pm
You can reach the Sonic Craft office guys at:
http://www.soniccraft.com/contact_us.php
Or in the DIYaudio.

Thanks! I saw that on the site! Just wondering why no contact number?
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: Stimpy on 11 Jan 2018, 01:31 am
Thanks! I saw that on the site! Just wondering why no contact number?

"why no contact number?", I wouldn't give it out either.  Especially when your clients are as geeky as we are!

True story.  A few years back, I was in Vegas for CES.  While running around The Zoo, and off-site to the high end displays, I asked one of my cabbies about the other conventions in town, and which were popular?  Also, did the audio geeks or the computer nerds spend more time at their respective conventions, or were they all over at the AVN Adult Expo?  The cabbie said none of the audio guys were at the XXX convention, but all the computer nerds were there!  I'm still not sure if that was funny or sad, (for us audio guys)?   :lol:

Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: GETRDUN on 11 Jan 2018, 08:52 pm
"why no contact number?", I wouldn't give it out either.  Especially when your clients are as geeky as we are!

True story.  A few years back, I was in Vegas for CES.  While running around The Zoo, and off-site to the high end displays, I asked one of my cabbies about the other conventions in town, and which were popular?  Also, did the audio geeks or the computer nerds spend more time at their respective conventions, or were they all over at the AVN Adult Expo?  The cabbie said none of the audio guys were at the XXX convention, but all the computer nerds were there!  I'm still not sure if that was funny or sad, (for us audio guys)?   :lol:

LOL. I guess it would get very aggravating with flooded calls with numerous questions on audio components!

BTW, I am considering upgrading some older built crossovers that have Solen caps and cheap resistors in the circuit!  :dunno: Was wondering if you are someone else could tell me what brand would be a good replacement? I was thinking of perhaps Erse, Mundorf, Clarity, Audyn, etc?
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: LarryD56 on 12 Jan 2018, 01:13 am
I did my cap research at the Capacitor Shootout by Humble Homemade HiFi.

L.D.
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: GETRDUN on 12 Jan 2018, 02:07 am
I did my cap research at the Capacitor Shootout by Humble Homemade HiFi.

L.D.

So which ones do you have in your speaker crossovers?
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: Stimpy on 12 Jan 2018, 02:13 am
BTW, I am considering upgrading some older built crossovers that have Solen caps and cheap resistors in the circuit!  :dunno: Was wondering if you are someone else could tell me what brand would be a good replacement? I was thinking of perhaps Erse, Mundorf, Clarity, Audyn, etc?

The only after market resistors that I've tried are Mills.  They seem well made, but I don't have much listening time on them yet.

As to caps, I've used Axon True Caps for shunts, ClarityCap CSA's and ESA's, Dayton 5%, and Mundorf EVO Oils, Supremes, and Supreme Silver Oils.  The Dayton's are clear and fairly neutral, if a little sibilent.  A bypass cap helped with that.  The Clarity's seem nice.  Warm and relaxed.  Tube like.  But veiled to me, and a bit rolled off in the upper mids and high end.  I hope more burn in helps with that?  Now, the Mundorf's seemed instantly crystal clear.  As many say, like a window was opened, and the music was more real.  Easy to listen to.  I'll probably only use Mundorf's in the future. 

I haven't tried any of the other caps that you mentioned, though I'd like to hear the Audyn's.  They get good feedback, and are reasonably priced.
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: GETRDUN on 12 Jan 2018, 05:14 pm
The only after market resistors that I've tried are Mills.  They seem well made, but I don't have much listening time on them yet.

As to caps, I've used Axon True Caps for shunts, ClarityCap CSA's and ESA's, Dayton 5%, and Mundorf EVO Oils, Supremes, and Supreme Silver Oils.  The Dayton's are clear and fairly neutral, if a little sibilent.  A bypass cap helped with that.  The Clarity's seem nice.  Warm and relaxed.  Tube like.  But veiled to me, and a bit rolled off in the upper mids and high end.  I hope more burn in helps with that?  Now, the Mundorf's seemed instantly crystal clear.  As many say, like a window was opened, and the music was more real.  Easy to listen to.  I'll probably only use Mundorf's in the future. 

I haven't tried any of the other caps that you mentioned, though I'd like to hear the Audyn's.  They get good feedback, and are reasonably priced.

Thanks Stimpy! I've looked at the Dayton caps before, but was under the impression that they were cheap and on the same line as a Bennic or Solen! Perhaps I may have judged them wrong? Perhaps you can tell me what series Dayton caps you tried. I see they have the DMPC, DFFC and PMPC series.

Perhaps I will try the Mundorfs. Is there a particular series that you prefer, such as the Mcap, Tubecap, Supreme, Silver Oil/Siver-Gold Oil?

I have also heard good results with the Audyn Plus caps! Gotta love cap rolling  :thumb:
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: FullRangeMan on 12 Jan 2018, 05:54 pm
This is a old cap test result from Lampizator site,
Iam posting it again to your meditation:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=131996)
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: Stimpy on 13 Jan 2018, 01:19 am
Thanks Stimpy! I've looked at the Dayton caps before, but was under the impression that they were cheap and on the same line as a Bennic or Solen! Perhaps I may have judged them wrong? Perhaps you can tell me what series Dayton caps you tried. I see they have the DMPC, DFFC and PMPC series.

Perhaps I will try the Mundorfs. Is there a particular series that you prefer, such as the Mcap, Tubecap, Supreme, Silver Oil/Siver-Gold Oil?

I have also heard good results with the Audyn Plus caps! Gotta love cap rolling  :thumb:

Of the 3 Dayton caps, I've used the DMPC's and the DFFC's as bypass caps.  I was pleasantly surprised by the DMPC's, as they are the cheaper PE Dayton 5% caps.  They sounded very balanced and smooth, with good soundstage width and depth.  Not too warm or sterile either.  But, I did hear some spittiness and a little sibilence occasionally, in the upper mids.  Not often, mainly an SSS sibilance.  So I used a DFFC Film & Foil bypass cap and that cured the sibilence.

I haven't tried the PMPC Dayton 1% caps yet.  I wouldn't hesitate to try them, if needed.  And they did get a positive review from Tony Gee at Humble Homemade HiFi.  Or at least the Bennic version did, as they make the Dayton caps.

As far as Mundorf, I usually use the Aluminum EVO Oil series.  A middle of the line series, that to me, offers a good performance for the price, reward.  Plus, the EVO Oils are used when making Mundorf Supreme capacitors, so they must be pretty decent.  Just less costly.  Which is good.  More open and airy.  Maybe not as warm as the ClarityCaps, but not rolled off either.  I guess I like a balanced and a detailed response.  Not too syrupy, like the Clarity's (to me, IMHO).
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: LarryD56 on 13 Jan 2018, 01:33 am
I put in a Mundorf EVO Aluminum and Clarity CSA combination in the midrange circuit. I put CSAs in the treble. The CSAs are nice and clear with no glare in the tweets. The EVO in the midrange is very revealing, almost too revealing. I'm waiting for them to burn in and smooth out. It's been a few weeks. No conclusion yet on the EVOs. CSAs get two thumbs up.

Larry D.
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: Stimpy on 13 Jan 2018, 02:47 pm
I put in a Mundorf EVO Aluminum and Clarity CSA combination in the midrange circuit. I put CSAs in the treble. The CSAs are nice and clear with no glare in the tweets. The EVO in the midrange is very revealing, almost too revealing. I'm waiting for them to burn in and smooth out. It's been a few weeks. No conclusion yet on the EVOs. CSAs get two thumbs up.

Larry D.

Hi Larry,

Just curious, what speakers did you recap?  Strictly CSA's on the tweeters, and EVO Oil's on the rest?  I like the CSA's and ESA's that I just used for a recent recap, but to me they still sound somewhat muted in the highs.  They don't seem to play as loud as the stock caps either, which makes me wonder if they have a higher ESR?

Oh yea, I used EVO Oils on a different recap.  I haven't finished the speakers yet, but I hope they aren't too revealing like yours seem to be?  Though, I do like balance and clarity.  So, I should like them.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: LarryD56 on 13 Jan 2018, 05:12 pm
The speakers I re-capped are Infinity RS II's. I used a 100uf EVO Aluminum Oil and 47uf Clarity CSA in the midrange circuit. If you check the capacitor shootout they specify that there is a noticeable step up in sound quality from the ESA to the CSA. I used the CSA to tone down the revealing EVO OIL since the CSA is supposed to be neutral. I like details, but if the upper midrange is too revealing I get fatigued quickly. I was trying to avoid that. We will hear what happens down the road.

Larry D.
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: Stimpy on 13 Jan 2018, 09:12 pm
The speakers I re-capped are Infinity RS II's. I used a 100uf EVO Aluminum Oil and 47uf Clarity CSA in the midrange circuit. If you check the capacitor shootout they specify that there is a noticeable step up in sound quality from the ESA to the CSA. I used the CSA to tone down the revealing EVO OIL since the CSA is supposed to be neutral. I like details, but if the upper midrange is too revealing I get fatigued quickly. I was trying to avoid that. We will hear what happens down the road.

Larry D.

Thanks.  But, didn't we discuss this recap in the Infinity Forum over at AK?  'Cause this sounds familiar!   :thumb:

I really should use the same nickname at all the sites I hang out in.  Same avatar too.  Then, maybe our socializing would be less confusing?   :D
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: LarryD56 on 13 Jan 2018, 09:59 pm
Yeah, we did discuss that on AK. I came over here to figure out what I wanted to purchase for caps. I do like detail in music so I went with the EVO combination on the mids.

I keep looking around for more information because I may re-cap a pair of Von Schweikert VR-2000's.

Larry D.
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: GETRDUN on 15 Jan 2018, 05:43 am
Of the 3 Dayton caps, I've used the DMPC's and the DFFC's as bypass caps.  I was pleasantly surprised by the DMPC's, as they are the cheaper PE Dayton 5% caps.  They sounded very balanced and smooth, with good soundstage width and depth.  Not too warm or sterile either.  But, I did hear some spittiness and a little sibilence occasionally, in the upper mids.  Not often, mainly an SSS sibilance.  So I used a DFFC Film & Foil bypass cap and that cured the sibilence.

I haven't tried the PMPC Dayton 1% caps yet.  I wouldn't hesitate to try them, if needed.  And they did get a positive review from Tony Gee at Humble Homemade HiFi.  Or at least the Bennic version did, as they make the Dayton caps.

As far as Mundorf, I usually use the Aluminum EVO Oil series.  A middle of the line series, that to me, offers a good performance for the price, reward.  Plus, the EVO Oils are used when making Mundorf Supreme capacitors, so they must be pretty decent.  Just less costly.  Which is good.  More open and airy.  Maybe not as warm as the ClarityCaps, but not rolled off either.  I guess I like a balanced and a detailed response.  Not too syrupy, like the Clarity's (to me, IMHO).

Thanks again for that info! I was leaning towards trying either the Mundorf EVO oils like you and Larry mentioned, or perhaps the Jantzen Z-Superior caps. I was also considering ordering some of the Audyn Copper Foil caps .1uF for bypassing, but I think I may order the CDE caps that Tony Gee mentions for bypassing everywhere.

Maybe later on I may try the Audyn CF's .1uF's and also add the CDE's .01uF in parallel? This cap rolling hobby can get a little on the expensive side!  :green:
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: Stimpy on 16 Jan 2018, 03:43 pm
Thanks again for that info! I was leaning towards trying either the Mundorf EVO oils like you and Larry mentioned, or perhaps the Jantzen Z-Superior caps. I was also considering ordering some of the Audyn Copper Foil caps .1uF for bypassing, but I think I may order the CDE caps that Tony Gee mentions for bypassing everywhere.

Maybe later on I may try the Audyn CF's .1uF's and also add the CDE's .01uF in parallel? This cap rolling hobby can get a little on the expensive side!  :green:

You're welcome.  I hope that my info has been useful?

Also, if I try some different bypass caps, I'll probably try the some of the Cornell Dubilier 940C capacitors, that Tony Gee seems to like so well.  Now.  Not too expensive, and cheaper than the next level of caps.

https://www.mouser.com/Cornell-Dubilier/Passive-Components/Capacitors/Film-Capacitors/940C-Series/_/N-9x371?P=1z0yljnZ1z0zlgf (https://www.mouser.com/Cornell-Dubilier/Passive-Components/Capacitors/Film-Capacitors/940C-Series/_/N-9x371?P=1z0yljnZ1z0zlgf)

If you do try the Jantzen's or the Audyn's, you might consider the ClarityCap MR or CMR series too.  They get raves reviews at the Polk Forum.  But, I'm getting a bit burned out on burn in, and capacitors.  This cap stuff is driving me crazy.  The CD 940C's might be next, then I'm done.     :o
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: GETRDUN on 17 Jan 2018, 03:45 am
You're welcome.  I hope that my info has been useful?

Also, if I try some different bypass caps, I'll probably try the some of the Cornell Dubilier 940C capacitors, that Tony Gee seems to like so well.  Now.  Not too expensive, and cheaper than the next level of caps.

https://www.mouser.com/Cornell-Dubilier/Passive-Components/Capacitors/Film-Capacitors/940C-Series/_/N-9x371?P=1z0yljnZ1z0zlgf (https://www.mouser.com/Cornell-Dubilier/Passive-Components/Capacitors/Film-Capacitors/940C-Series/_/N-9x371?P=1z0yljnZ1z0zlgf)

If you do try the Jantzen's or the Audyn's, you might consider the ClarityCap MR or CMR series too.  They get raves reviews at the Polk Forum.  But, I'm getting a bit burned out on burn in, and capacitors.  This cap stuff is driving me crazy.  The CD 940C's might be next, then I'm done.     :o

Yes your info has been very helpful, Thanks again! I wouldn't give up just yet! Perhaps you should try the Audyn CF caps in a small value and use them as a bypass cap. I realize they are not a Jupiter, but may be worth the money to try! I may still get some to see how they mate up with a higher value cap. Maybe try using a .01uF CDE along with a .1 Audyn CF paralleled on your Mundorf EVO oils?
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: bladesmith on 17 Jan 2018, 04:10 am
I look at By-pass caps like i do tubes in my Buffer.  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: LarryD56 on 17 Jan 2018, 05:31 am
I seriously considered the Jantzen Superiors as an alternative to the Clarity CSAs. They were rated very well, but I had to go with what was within a $350 budget. I'm well pleased with what I'm hearing right now, so I'm happy with my choices. I just wish there weren't so many damn caps in my crossovers.

Larry D.
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: GETRDUN on 17 Jan 2018, 07:54 am
I seriously considered the Jantzen Superiors as an alternative to the Clarity CSAs. They were rated very well, but I had to go with what was within a $350 budget. I'm well pleased with what I'm hearing right now, so I'm happy with my choices. I just wish there weren't so many damn caps in my crossovers.

Larry D.

You may want to also consider the Audyn Plus caps as well. Have you tried by-passing those Mundorf EVO oil caps? Also remember that it does take many hours to burn in caps!
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: Stimpy on 17 Jan 2018, 12:04 pm
I wouldn't give up just yet! Perhaps you should try the Audyn CF caps in a small value and use them as a bypass cap. I realize they are not a Jupiter, but may be worth the money to try! I may still get some to see how they mate up with a higher value cap. Maybe try using a .01uF CDE along with a .1 Audyn CF paralleled on your Mundorf EVO oils?

I think I might have caused some confusion?  My Mundorf recap isn't at issue; my ClarityCap recap is.

I recently recapped 2 different sets of speakers, both Acoustic Research.  My purchased new AR90's, and my CL find, AR58S speakers.  Both sets of speakers are from the same time period, and use the same tweeters and dome midrange drivers.

I've owned my AR90's for years.  Purchased new, directly from the AR factory.  They were recapped last year, with Mundorf EVO Oil and Supreme capacitors.  I'm still working on refinishing the cabinets, so they only have a few minutes of playing time.  Just a QC check of my work.

My AR58S speakers were a CL find, and were recapped a few weeks back.  These used ClarityCaps; CSA's on the tweeters, and ESA's on the mids.  They're still burning in, but so far, the Clarity's haven't impressed me.  At least, the ESA's.  The upper mids are slightly muted, veiled, and rolled off.  It kind'a makes voices sound like people have colds.  Vocals are harder to understand too.  All pretty much how Tony Gee described them in his review.  That's why I'm considering mods, including bypass caps.  Just for the Clarity's, not the Mundorf's.
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: Stimpy on 17 Jan 2018, 02:24 pm
I seriously considered the Jantzen Superiors as an alternative to the Clarity CSAs. They were rated very well, but I had to go with what was within a $350 budget. I'm well pleased with what I'm hearing right now, so I'm happy with my choices. I just wish there weren't so many damn caps in my crossovers.

Larry D.

Eight capacitors in your Infinity's, and 8 in my AR's (plus bypass caps).  So, neither speaker cheap to recap, with polys at least.  Plus, with dozens of brands of capacitors to choose from, not an easy decision on what to use.  I researched for months, trying to decide a path forward.  Then stressing, if I'd made the correct decision?  Still, I look forward to listening to improved speakers!  Now that'll be enjoyable.
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: GETRDUN on 17 Jan 2018, 10:44 pm
I think I might have caused some confusion?  My Mundorf recap isn't at issue; my ClarityCap recap is.

I recently recapped 2 different sets of speakers, both Acoustic Research.  My purchased new AR90's, and my CL find, AR58S speakers.  Both sets of speakers are from the same time period, and use the same tweeters and dome midrange drivers.

I've owned my AR90's for years.  Purchased new, directly from the AR factory.  They were recapped last year, with Mundorf EVO Oil and Supreme capacitors.  I'm still working on refinishing the cabinets, so they only have a few minutes of playing time.  Just a QC check of my work.

My AR58S speakers were a CL find, and were recapped a few weeks back.  These used ClarityCaps; CSA's on the tweeters, and ESA's on the mids.  They're still burning in, but so far, the Clarity's haven't impressed me.  At least, the ESA's.  The upper mids are slightly muted, veiled, and rolled off.  It kind'a makes voices sound like people have colds.  Vocals are harder to understand too.  All pretty much how Tony Gee described them in his review.  That's why I'm considering mods, including bypass caps.  Just for the Clarity's, not the Mundorf's.

Ah, OK, now I see! So with a few minutes of play time, how did the AR90's sound with the Mundorfs?

I'm curious to know the voltage rating on your ESA's? I have the 630V ESA's bypassed with the .1uF MR's/.01uF Russian Teflon's, and they sound really nice to me. Just my 2 cents!
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: Stimpy on 18 Jan 2018, 01:53 am
Ah, OK, now I see! So with a few minutes of play time, how did the AR90's sound with the Mundorfs?

I actually have a spare set of AR90 crossovers.  So, I recapped the spares, so I could still play the speakers, as long as possible, before their tear down.  After the first spare was completed, I tested it with a crap test 6.5" woofer.  All seemed OK, and sounded correct.  Next up, I hooked up a spare AR90 1.5" dome to the new crossover, and played that single driver, and compared it to one of my stock 90's.  Well, that single midrange dome put out more mid and high range output, than the combined mids and tweeters in the stock speaker!  Clean, clear, and much more present.  Not forward, just natural.  There was also quite a bit of static distortion through the stock speaker, where the new crossover was again, very clean.  To me, open and neutral.

I'm curious to know the voltage rating on your ESA's? I have the 630V ESA's bypassed with the .1uF MR's/.01uF Russian Teflon's, and they sound really nice to me. Just my 2 cents!

Both my CSA's and ESA's were the 250V version.  They were big enough.  I'm not sure if I'd want to see the even bigger 630V caps.

I have some Auricaps, Dayton Film and Foils, and Russian Military surplus oil caps.  I guess I could throw some of those on the ESA, to see if it would help?  Couldn't hurt at this point.   :?
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: GETRDUN on 18 Jan 2018, 07:58 pm
I actually have a spare set of AR90 crossovers.  So, I recapped the spares, so I could still play the speakers, as long as possible, before their tear down.  After the first spare was completed, I tested it with a crap test 6.5" woofer.  All seemed OK, and sounded correct.  Next up, I hooked up a spare AR90 1.5" dome to the new crossover, and played that single driver, and compared it to one of my stock 90's.  Well, that single midrange dome put out more mid and high range output, than the combined mids and tweeters in the stock speaker!  Clean, clear, and much more present.  Not forward, just natural.  There was also quite a bit of static distortion through the stock speaker, where the new crossover was again, very clean.  To me, open and neutral.

Both my CSA's and ESA's were the 250V version.  They were big enough.  I'm not sure if I'd want to see the even bigger 630V caps.

I have some Auricaps, Dayton Film and Foils, and Russian Military surplus oil caps.  I guess I could throw some of those on the ESA, to see if it would help?  Couldn't hurt at this point.   :?

I believe you will continue to hear improvements as you put some play time on the caps! I have noticed that at times you can hear some changes as the components are burning in.

As for the 250V ESA's, if you wanted to go with the 630's, you could always do an external crossover..LOL
Title: Re: Bypass Capacitors?
Post by: Stimpy on 3 Feb 2018, 09:40 pm
OK, some updates.  I allowed my recapped AR-58S speakers to play and burn in for about four weeks.  The recap sounded very good, with a warm, rich balance, with a wide enveloping soundstage.  But, for whatever reason, the Clarity ESA cap on the UMR dome, never opened up in the upper mids.  The sound stayed rolled off and veiled, making vocals hard to understand.  So, I opened the speakers up and added cascaded bypass caps.  I added a 0.1uF Dayton film and foil cap, and a 0.01uF Russian K40Y-9 PIO cap.  Why 2 bypass caps?  Because I could, since I already had both.  Plus, I was hoping the Russian paper in oil caps would help retain the rich sound of the Clarity's.  Now, the speakers sound much more balanced through the mids.  The veiling is gone too.  I'm starting to finally like the speakers, post recap.  Next time, I'll stick with Mundorf.  But for now, I'm happy.

Now, a weird thing.  Before finding the AR-58S speakers, I had picked up a set of AR-1MS minimonitors.  Nice little speakers, with good midrange clarity.  But, the 1MS speakers were very sibilant at times, with a pronounced 'ess' peakiness.  So, I opened them up, and they had already been recapped by the previous owner.  Poly TRW caps on the mids, and poly Dayton 5% caps on the tweeters.  I added a 0.1uF Dayton F&F to the mids, and a 0.1uF Auricap to the tweeters.  Sibilance gone.

Explain to me why a bypass cap can open up the response of one speaker, and tame the peakiness in another?  Please help, 'cause I'm confused!