AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Home Theater and Video => Topic started by: zybar on 11 Aug 2007, 12:53 pm
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Well I am finally getting around to building my dedicated HT and the pieces are starting to fall into place.
I will use this thread to share my pics and thoughts specifically around the SmX acoustically transparent screen.
You can read all about the screen over at the AVS Forum and by hitting their website: http://www.smxscreen.com/
I will start off by saying that the packing of the screen is the best I have ever seen. I have purchased screens from Stewart before and while their packing was good, the SmX packing methodology and execution is in a class by itself!! :thumb: Basically, you have a 15-20lb screen in a 100lb crate that is rock solid and well laid out.
Here are a few pics:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=11311)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=11310)
This crate is almost 11' in length and everything is super well secured! Each part of the frame is bolted to four pieces of wood that is covered in the same black velvet as the frame. There is basically no chance of the frame getting scratched, dented, etc...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=11307)
The frame itself is very easy to put together. Each corner has two "L" shaped brackets that slide into grooves on the frame. Once you slide the brackets into place and have the frame pieces flush, you simply use an allen key to fasten 8 hex screws per corner into the brackets. This exercise took me about 15 minutes by myself to complete. SmX even included the plastic tarp that I have the frame sitting on.
As for where I am going to mount the screen...
Since this is an acoustically transparent screen, it won't be mounted on a wall. Instead, a "freestanding" frame is being built. The frame will be trimmed out in mahagony all around and should look pretty sharp when completed. Yesterday the basic framing was started and today the framing and trim work should be completed.
Here are a few pics:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=11308)
Taken from the side
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=11309)
Taken from the front
Stay tuned for more pics later.
George
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Zybar,
Look forward to additional pictures. When this screen gets set up and it's permanent, how will you get around it? I'm guessing you have a huge opening to the left of the screen, which opens into the rest of the basement?
Rob S.
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Zybar,
Look forward to additional pictures. When this screen gets set up and it's permanent, how will you get around it? I'm guessing you have a huge opening to the left of the screen, which opens into the rest of the basement?
Rob S.
Rob,
There will be two ways to get into the theater. Neither is perfect, but I am trying to do this with the minimal amount of construction and cost.
Option 1 will be to walk in right next to the screen (there will be about 32" of clearance):
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=11316)
Option 2 will be the doors you see on the right side in the pic below. The only downside is that you need to go through the boys' playroom/tv room to reach those doors.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=11317)
George
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George...
Looks like you're in for a lot of fun!
What do you plan to do for light control? I did something that was cheap and easy and looks good. I cut out blackout fabric that was about 8" taller and 8" wider than the window. I then put a couple beads of liquid nails on the wall surrounding the window and behind the blackout cloth. While still wet, I tacked up the blackout cloth with thumb tacks and then used a spatula to squeze/flatten the cloth so it was flush with the wall (effectively like using clamps when gluing two peices of wood together). After letting it dry for a day, I took out the thumb tacks and used puddy to smooth over the edges. I then primed the entire membrane. After that, I sprayed on some texture and primed again once dry. Lastly, I painted it the color of the wall. The whole thing is very solidly attached, yet the blinds remain behind the membrane so from the outside the window looks the same as all the others in the house.
Here are a couple photos:
(http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n3/Jagman96/Finished%20HT/PhotoTransfer1stOctober2006206.jpg)
Before
(http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n3/Jagman96/Finished%20HT/NewPhotos052.jpg)
After
Just some food for thought.
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Two more things:
They don't flap or make any kind of noise (and I have an IB sub with13 liters of displacement in the room). The only drawback is they don't diminish sound coming in from outside. Granted, I live in a quiet neighborhood so that really isn't an issue for me, but that may not work for you.
I have extensive acoustic treatments so no direct reflections come off the window covering (meaning the membrane aspect has minimal effect on the acoustics of the room). I'm sure your room will be treated as well but thought I should mention it anyways.
Good luck with your project... it'll be fun to watch the progress :thumb:.
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George,
How big is the screen, where did you get it, and (if you don't mind my asking) about how much was it? I keep thinking of putting in an electric/pulldown screen, but I could also go your route and put in a temporary frame (temporary in that I'd take it down prior to selling the house). I'll be interested to see what you do with yours.
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George,
How big is the screen, where did you get it, and (if you don't mind my asking) about how much was it? I keep thinking of putting in an electric/pulldown screen, but I could also go your route and put in a temporary frame (temporary in that I'd take it down prior to selling the house). I'll be interested to see what you do with yours.
The screen has a viewable area of 110" and it's actual dimensions are 103" x 61" (including the screen frame).
I bought it from Bryan (bpape) who is an SmX dealer. You would need to contact him for costs based on actual size.
We ran into some snags today (slight changes to the plans and I didn't like some of the mahagony boards) so it won't be finished today. We did dry fit the screen frame and I really like the way it looks.
George
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Thanks, George. I'll contact him and see what he says. I'd rather have a fixed frame, even if I had to rig something, than I would a pulldown/electric. Let us know what the performance (both visual and acoustic) is like.
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Good luck George.....say, how big is that room ? Thanks.... :thumb:
Chris
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Good luck George.....say, how big is that room ? Thanks.... :thumb:
Chris
Chris,
I will post room measurements later tonight.
Just finished a good 6+ hours of trimming things out and I need to clean up and make the boys dinner.
Pics will be posted later.
George
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Ok, here are a few more pics:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=11332)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=11331)
Both these pictures show the mahogany trim starting to go up.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=11330)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=11327)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=11328)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=11326)
Still need to get one last piece of trim up, but mostly done with the rough work.
George
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After the last trim piece goes up tomorrow, it will be time to fill in all the nail holes and start sanding the wood.
Once things are sanded nicely, I will be applying some Minwax Polyshade in the Bombay Mahogany satin finish (http://www.minwax.com/products/onestep/Polyshades-color.cfm). This will darken up the wood considerably, which is perfect for HT use.
Unfortunately, my pics don't show the nice routing work that was done all around.
George
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Two more things:
They don't flap or make any kind of noise (and I have an IB sub with13 liters of displacement in the room). The only drawback is they don't diminish sound coming in from outside. Granted, I live in a quiet neighborhood so that really isn't an issue for me, but that may not work for you.
I have extensive acoustic treatments so no direct reflections come off the window covering (meaning the membrane aspect has minimal effect on the acoustics of the room). I'm sure your room will be treated as well but thought I should mention it anyways.
Good luck with your project... it'll be fun to watch the progress :thumb:.
Thanks for the ideas on light control.
I might be sending you a PM or two to pick your brain.
George
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Good luck George.....say, how big is that room ? Thanks.... :thumb:
Chris
Chris,
This part of the basement is "L" shaped.
The "l" part of the room is about 40' long and 13 1/2' wide.
The "_" part of the room is about 27' long and 13 1/2' wide.
Ceiling height is 7'6" across the space and is sheetrock.
Of course those measurements above don't take into account the area where they overlap. :wink:
George
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Very nice! Where did you get the trim pieces? From Home Cheapo?
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Very nice! Where did you get the trim pieces? From Home Cheapo?
Nope, I have never seen mahogany at Depot.
The wood was bought at a local lumber yard.
The quality of the wood was good, but I wouldn't consider it true furniture grade. :cry:
That being said, a 1x6x10 piece cost around $50-60 each, with other sizes being more or less expensive.
Not cheap, but it will be worth it.
George
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Thanks, George. We have a local lumber supply store, so I'll go there. What you're doing would be perfect for what I'd like to do in my house (well, what I'd rather do is buy another house with an unfinished basement; but that won't happen for a while).
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Ok, here are a few pics showing the front and back of the screen frame fully trimmed out in mahogany with the SmX screen frame in place (without the screen fabric attached).
My wife and I are very happy with the results. :thumb:
George
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=11345)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=11344)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=11342)
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Looking good George. Are you doing all this work yourself ?
I got my new projector hung yesterday without much difficulty. After some head scratching I think I've figured out the best way to mount the screen (Da-Lite Tensioned Cosmo Electrosol) and hopefully will get it up later in the week. If I end up taking pictures I may start another thread in this circle.
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Ok, here are a few pics showing the front and back of the screen frame fully trimmed out in mahogany with the SmX screen frame in place (without the screen fabric attached).
I know you said you got the AT screen... Out of curiousity, are you planning to put your speakers free-standing behind the screen?
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George, that's outstanding! The detail work looks great too. Very nice and truly a great use of space for a weird room. How are you going to mount the speakers?
If I decide to go this route, mine won't look 1/1000 as nice. I plan on slapping up some 2x4s and putting the screen on them. I may paint the 2x4s black or some other dark color. In my case, I'm going to have to take it down when I leave, so the more temporary I can make it, the better.
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Looking good George. Nice job with the Mahogony.
Bryan
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Looking good George. Are you doing all this work yourself ?
I got my new projector hung yesterday without much difficulty. After some head scratching I think I've figured out the best way to mount the screen (Da-Lite Tensioned Cosmo Electrosol) and hopefully will get it up later in the week. If I end up taking pictures I may start another thread in this circle.
I worked with a carpenter friend, so I certainly can't take all the credit.
It was good having somebody who really knows what he is doing there to help guide and make sure something doesn't go down the wrong path.
George
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George, that's outstanding! The detail work looks great too. Very nice and truly a great use of space for a weird room. How are you going to mount the speakers?
If I decide to go this route, mine won't look 1/1000 as nice. I plan on slapping up some 2x4s and putting the screen on them. I may paint the 2x4s black or some other dark color. In my case, I'm going to have to take it down when I leave, so the more temporary I can make it, the better.
Thanks Bob.
Unfortunately, the routing work doesn't show up to well in my pics.
The speakers I will be using are Salk Song Towers, so mounting is not an issue since they are floor standing speakers. They will simply go 6-12" behind the screen fabric. I believe Jim is going to try and post a picture or two of the three speakers later today.
As for temporary vs. permanent...
This frame can easily come down with minimal impact if I were to sell the house. The only part that is attached to anything is the header that is nailed into the ceiling. Given the size and weight of the frame and the multiple cross beams, it wasn't necessary to do more than that from a structural standpoint (trust me when I say that the frame isn't going anywhere!) Patch some nail holes in the ceiling and it was like it was never there.
If you want to keep your costs down, you can simply trim it out with less expensive wood or even go with a nice finished plywood + trim.
Now who wants to do the real hard work for me? Filling in nail holes, sanding, staining, etc...
George
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Now who wants to do the real hard work for me? Filling in nail holes, sanding, staining, etc...
George
I would love to... but I am too jammed up with deadlines. I can make your work easier though, sand, stain, and finish the wood first, then fill the nail holes with Color Putty http://www.colorputty.com/index.html (http://www.colorputty.com/index.html). You can achieve a better color match by mixing different shades together or adding some paint tinting colors. After you fill the holes with color putty, clean up the haze with a dark tinted wax like Deft Satin Finishing Wax. A dark wax will dry dark, a clear wax will work, but any wax left in the cracks will dry with a white color.
Filling the nails holes first with a hard filler like Famowood, http://www.woodnshop.com/Famowood.htm (http://www.woodnshop.com/Famowood.htm) will work but the filler gets into the grain around the nail holes and usually leaves a shadow that stains differently than the surrounding wood, this highlights the holes instead of hiding them. You will have to sand a lot more to make sure the shadow is gone and you never know how the Famowood will stain out.
Wayne
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Now who wants to do the real hard work for me? Filling in nail holes, sanding, staining, etc...
George
I would love to... but I am too jammed up with deadlines. I can make your work easier though, sand, stain, and finish the wood first, then fill the nail holes with Color Putty http://www.colorputty.com/index.html (http://www.colorputty.com/index.html). You can achieve a better color match by mixing different shades together or adding some paint tinting colors. After you fill the holes with color putty, clean up the haze with a dark tinted wax like Deft Satin Finishing Wax. A dark wax will dry dark, a clear wax will work, but any wax left in the cracks will dry with a white color.
Filling the nails holes first with a hard filler like Famowood, http://www.woodnshop.com/Famowood.htm (http://www.woodnshop.com/Famowood.htm) will work but the filler gets into the grain around the nail holes and usually leaves a shadow that stains differently than the surrounding wood, this highlights the holes instead of hiding them. You will have to sand a lot more to make sure the shadow is gone and you never know how the Famowood will stain out.
Wayne
Thanks Wayne.
I was going to use Minwax Polyshade to help cut down on the time things take.
I am guessing you would probably suggest doing a separate stain and poly vs. the all in one?
George
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The Poly will work, I usually do exterior finishing for my doors so I always think of using separate satin and finishes, the all-in-one stain/finish for your small job sounds perfect. I would still fill the nail holes last.
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George... lookin' good :D. Where to do you plan on putting your electronics? I would think you'd be able build in a rack next to the screen that would look beatiful and allow easy access from the rear as well as great ventilation. You are one lucky guy :D.
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George... lookin' good :D. Where to do you plan on putting your electronics? I would think you'd be able build in a rack next to the screen that would look beatiful and allow easy access from the rear as well as great ventilation. You are one lucky guy :D.
I haven't decided yet.
Most likely it will be at one end of the room or other. :duh:
There are pro's and con's to placing it in either location and neither seems to be better than the other.
In either location, it will be easily accessible and out of the way.
George
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In either location, it will be easily accessible and out of the way.
That would be nice. I'm envious of your project.
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Ok, here are a few pictures with the Salk Song Towers quickly put into place. These aren't the exact final spots, but you get the idea...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=11362)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=11359)
George
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As for temporary vs. permanent...
This frame can easily come down with minimal impact if I were to sell the house. The only part that is attached to anything is the header that is nailed into the ceiling. Given the size and weight of the frame and the multiple cross beams, it wasn't necessary to do more than that from a structural standpoint (trust me when I say that the frame isn't going anywhere!) Patch some nail holes in the ceiling and it was like it was never there.
If you want to keep your costs down, you can simply trim it out with less expensive wood or even go with a nice finished plywood + trim.
Good ideas, George. I think my main problem is the tile floor, which is remarkably uneven. However, if I could conquer this, I think you've given me some great ideas (and I just need to put the center behind the screen -- the front speakers will be into the room).
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George,
That's really looking nice. I like the way the drivers all sit right above the frame. It should really sound awesome for movies. I thought the speakers were going to be too close together but it looks like you have plenty of space. It's so nice to hide the speakers behind the screen. With the frame you made, the theater will have a really clean look. Well done!
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Thanks guys.
I need to play around with placement and might even elevate the speakers a little more by placing them on top of something.
I am also trying to decide what to do with the opening below the screen. Right now I am leaning towards covering it with GOM fabric and possibly some Muslin for blackout qualities. I just need to be careful not to do something that has a negative sonic impact.
George
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Lift the speakers so the acoustic center is 1/3 to 1/2 up the screen. You're not going to hurt anything on the bottom.
Bryan
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Lift the speakers so the acoustic center is 1/3 to 1/2 up the screen. You're not going to hurt anything on the bottom.
Bryan
Bryan,
Is that so the voices will really sound like they are coming form the middle of the screen?
George
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Looks great so far. The SmX screen material does look cool (especially the rotatability to avoid moire).
I'm don't know about you, but I actually enjoy playing around with the theater room. I just finished my last set of changes (riser in back for overflow seating) and while its nice to sit down and watch something now, I'm sure in a few days I'll be tweaking something again.
Lift the speakers so the acoustic center is 1/3 to 1/2 up the screen. You're not going to hurt anything on the bottom.
Is that so the voices will really sound like they are coming form the middle of the screen?
I bet it is so you reduce any comb filtering (or whatever the proper term is) problems from the bottom frame bar.
Good ideas, George. I think my main problem is the tile floor, which is remarkably uneven. However, if I could conquer this, I think you've given me some great ideas (and I just need to put the center behind the screen -- the front speakers will be into the room).
Just keep in mind that everything is a trade off. While an acoustically transparent screen lets you put the speakers behind it in a more "correct" location, it isn't going to allow appreciable gain. You've got to have gain to go big. I've got my center ceiling mounted and I wouldn't trade my high power screen with the center up there for an unity gain (or slightly more) AT screen with the center in the right height.
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George,
Getting it up a little does both put the dialog and image more in line with the screen. It also as was suggested, get you farther from the framing.
Samples,
Personal preference. You're right if you want to go big - with a CRT PJ. The issue with high power screens is off axis unevenness in brightness if you do too much gain. Couple that with the super high brightness and borderline blacks of most digital PJs, and I personally don't like the results. Things just look washed out to me. Blacks are grey, not sitting in the center seat causes dimness on the opposite side of the screen, etc.
I also personally find the center up high by the ceiling distracting. When you get pans that do a vertical arc, it's noticible. Also, going way up high with a normal ceiling height will cause SBIR issues that will change the voicing of the center in relation to the left and right. 3 identical speakers all behind a screen that has little to no attenuation below 10kHz IMO is preferable. Identical voicing, excellent panning, good lock of dialog to the screen, etc.
Lastly, having the speakers behind the screen allows for more space between the speaker and the side walls which reduces SBIR issues.
To each their own - just my 2 cents.
Bryan
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Just keep in mind that everything is a trade off. While an acoustically transparent screen lets you put the speakers behind it in a more "correct" location, it isn't going to allow appreciable gain. You've got to have gain to go big. I've got my center ceiling mounted and I wouldn't trade my high power screen with the center up there for an unity gain (or slightly more) AT screen with the center in the right height.
For the past five years I have been using a Stewart Firehawk screen, so I am fine with a unity gain screen. This is a dedicated space and it will be totally light controlled.
I am pretty sure that this was the right choice for me, but won't know with 100% certainty until I get the fabric on the frame and fire things up!
George
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Just keep in mind that everything is a trade off. While an acoustically transparent screen lets you put the speakers behind it in a more "correct" location, it isn't going to allow appreciable gain. You've got to have gain to go big. I've got my center ceiling mounted and I wouldn't trade my high power screen with the center up there for an unity gain (or slightly more) AT screen with the center in the right height.
For the past five years I have been using a Stewart Firehawk screen, so I am fine with a unity gain screen. This is a dedicated space and it will be totally light controlled.
I am pretty sure that this was the right choice for me, but won't know with 100% certainty until I get the fabric on the frame and fire things up!
George
For the size screen you are running, you shouldn't really need the gain. Its all area based so just an inch or two more matters a lot. Since you don't need the gain, why not take advantage of the AT material. For that room with that size screen, its a great choice.
Just 30% more diagonal needs over 60% more lumens. So even though I've gotten light control to the level that I need to weatherstrip the door frame because that tiny bit of halo from where the sides aren't perfectly square with the wall is the brightest light in the room I still need gain. I'm not running a CRT, but instead a JVC RS1 rated at 800 lumens. I'll just point out that projector makers "over" estimate brightness and of course any tweaking you do to settings reduce the brightness even more. As a bulb ages you will also see a reduction so Bryan's comment that only CRTs need gain is not at all accurate if you shoot for a minimum 13 ft lamberts at the end of bulb life. More never hurts! Also many of the disadvantages Bryan cited are much less observable with retro-reflective screens vs angular reflective screens. I wasn't trying to question Bryan's recommendation/sale of this SmX screen to George, but rather point out the trade off to others that were planning on following George's design. We've gotten off topic from George's thread so I'll leave it there.
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For the size screen you are running, you shouldn't really need the gain. Its all area based so just an inch or two more matters a lot. Since you don't need the gain, why not take advantage of the AT material. For that room with that size screen, its a great choice.
Just 30% more diagonal needs over 60% more lumens. So even though I've gotten light control to the level that I need to weatherstrip the door frame because that tiny bit of halo from where the sides aren't perfectly square with the wall is the brightest light in the room I still need gain. I'm not running a CRT, but instead a JVC RS1 rated at 800 lumens. I'll just point out that projector makers "over" estimate brightness and of course any tweaking you do to settings reduce the brightness even more. As a bulb ages you will also see a reduction so Bryan's comment that only CRTs need gain is not at all accurate if you shoot for a minimum 13 ft lamberts at the end of bulb life. More never hurts! Also many of the disadvantages Bryan cited are much less observable with retro-reflective screens vs angular reflective screens. I wasn't trying to question Bryan's recommendation/sale of this SmX screen to George, but rather point out the trade off to others that were planning on following George's design. We've gotten off topic from George's thread so I'll leave it there.
All good points.
I should also point out that my Firehawk was also 110" so it was the same size. Furthermore, my previous pj was a Marantz VP-12S1, whichactually has a lower lumen output than the Panny AE-900 I am now using.
Don't worry about straying a bit off topic, it is good and informative conversation.
George
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No offense taken. I was just trying to present the plusses and minuses of each type of screen. There are always tradeoffs. The bulb dimming is absolutely an issue with digital PJs. The one advantage to the RS-1 rating is that it is supposedly a calibrated rating - unlike the full out peak ratings most other PJs use. I had a friend of mine calibrate an RS-1 and a Sony Pearl. When it was done, the RS-1 actually had MORE output than the Sony.
Bryan
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Well, I finally attached the screen material to the frame today with the help of Sunshinedawg.
While my HT still isn't ready yet, I will give the screen a quick spin by hooking up a pj/dvd player.
Here is a pic of the screen in the custom mahogany frame:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=12420)
Please ignore all of the mess... aa
George
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Nice job George. That looks really sweet.
Bryan
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Here a couple of screen pics from a very hasty setup that includes a Bolder Cable modified Panny RP-91 (480P output) into a Panny AE-900 pj via component.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=12425)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=12424)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=12423)
I am now really motivated to at least get my HT functional as quickly as possible.
Stay tuned.
George
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Beautiful set-up George, and you are watching one of my favorite movies...The 5th Element!
Now that I am done shoveling snow for the day, I can bunker down and watch it this afternoon.
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Beautiful set-up George, and you are watching one of my favorite movies...The 5th Element!
Now that I am done shoveling snow for the day, I can bunker down and watch it this afternoon.
Thanks Bill.
I will try and get some newer pics up soon as I have cleaned things up a bit.
Now if I can just find time to paint, hang curtains, hang acoustic fabric, mount speakers, run wires, etc...
George