AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Well Tempered Lab => Topic started by: G E on 10 Jul 2016, 05:48 pm
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There is no guarantee a high dollar system will sound good.
A friend was auditioning a turntable in his home- magnet drive platter, SME tone arm and a cart that retailed for $11k. All together the turntable set up listed for $40k. Yeah.....
The hallmark of the system was dead silence in lead in grooves and a complete lack of background noise. It was beguiling at first.
But after an hour of listening I realized my foot wasn't tapping and we exchanged notes - there was no excitement in the presentation and emotion of the music did not come through be it joy, anger or wistfulness.
The turntable is going back to the store this week.
Went home and played some of the songs just played on my WTA and wow- what a difference. The life of the music pours out of the grooves. A vibrant and engaging experience.
And for 10% of the cost.
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Have a listen to 400 Royale. More of the involvement, tone and neutrality but with much better bass authority underpinning it all. It takes some accommodating though with it's weight and dimensions but worth it!
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So- the TransRotor went back to the shop.... And is coming back with a different cartridge. So I am going back over for another listen this weekend. I will also bring over a different single malt to enjoy during the proceedings. Hopefully that won't skew our test results. We are altering TWO variables, not just one. My old college science professors would be aghast.
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From a great deal of experience, I've found that it takes at least three drams to skew the results.
Doc
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"it takes at least three drams to skew the results."
+1
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What was the vertical tracking angle? That can make a huge difference.
Rocket Ronny
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What was the vertical tracking angle? That can make a huge difference.
Rocket Ronny
VTA can make a big difference - directly witnessed this with my Grado Reference Master 1 on my WTA. Best results with tail slightly down.
It appeared the SME arm and cart were tails up but somewhat hard to judge due to the taper of the arm. We assumed the dealer knows his business and properly set up cart/arm/VTA.
We had no way to measure stylus rake and we were not inclined to get too close to a cart costing $11k. If it needed to be dialed in the dealer got a second chance with a different cart.
And yes, I have mentioned the Royale 400 a few times and he has heard my WTA/Grado. He likes it but likes his VPI sound even more. Something for everybody...
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This kinda stuff comes alive on the WTA
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2XRoe3fs2gQ
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The one and only WT Royale 400 is currently residing in Berkshire's only dealer and magnificent it sounds too. My wife will be so glad it's too big to sit atop my Audiotech wallshelf. So's my bank manager! Here for the next few weeks so feel to drop by for a listen.
ATB
Simon
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The TransRotor table did not make it to my friend's place yet so he came over to my place for a listen (or as I call it, a palate re-calibration :lol: )
We sample three scotches: Aberlour 12 (sherry bomb), Highland 12, and a really smokey/peaty blend that Total Wine and Spirits is pushing hard. It's not a good companion to the other two, but a couple splashes of water make it OK on its own. I won't be getting it again.
Music included Buddy Guy/Jr Wells Record Store Day 2016 special, some live Billy Holiday very late in her career (wild red and white colored vinyl with no cover), Red Head Stranger Willy Nelson (Impex reissue, incredible), Some jazz featuring Stanley Clark, Chick Corea and Freddy Hubbard, a live Jan Hammer and Jeff beck record, and a couple of Gentle Giant records (acquiring the Taste and Octopus). A very good time was had by all.
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The one and only WT Royale 400 is currently residing in Berkshire's only dealer and magnificent it sounds too. My wife will be so glad it's too big to sit atop my Audiotech wallshelf. So's my bank manager! Here for the next few weeks so feel to drop by for a listen.
ATB
Simon
As the manager of Audio T at least you can buy the 400 at trade Simon :-).
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As the manager of Audio T at least you can buy the 400 at trade Simon :-).
True enough but all things are relative. Anyway I have to say I'm delighted with my Versalex/XV1-t which ended my 29 year tenure with an LP12 the last incarnation of which was LP12/Radikal/Aro/Cadenza Bronze, there really is no going back.
John Burns did warn me that owning the deck will be costly though. He was right, never bought so much vinyl, many outside of my comfort zone too.
Simon
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We share a similar experience. I went from a Naim'd LP12 to Versalex/ XV1s and have found myself listening to lots more Classical and Jazz. Count Basie never sounded quite right on the LP12.......
How do you find the improvement going from Versalex to Royale?
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We share a similar experience. I went from a Naim'd LP12 to Versalex/ XV1s and have found myself listening to lots more Classical and Jazz. Count Basie never sounded quite right on the LP12.......
How do you find the improvement going from Versalex to Royale?
Yes, same but lots of 1950s Miles Davis albums.
As for the comparison? Well I've only had a couple of days with it playing in the font of house and now I'm away on the North Yorkshire Moors. John kindly left his XV1-t so I intend bringing my Versalex (rather that than have to reset the cart alignment) in for a bake off next week. There's no way I could listen at home regrettably and we don't have the full Rega Reference system I use at home so I'm listening to it with mid-range Naim. We're using Shahinian Arc 2, Obelisk and Hawk, I have MK3 SBLs.
Simon
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Yes, same but lots of 1950s Miles Davis albums.
As for the comparison? Well I've only had a couple of days with it playing in the font of house and now I'm away on the North Yorkshire Moors. John kindly left his XV1-t so I intend bringing my Versalex (rather that than have to reset the cart alignment) in for a bake off next week. There's no way I could listen at home regrettably and we don't have the full Rega Reference system I use at home so I'm listening to it with mid-range Naim. We're using Shahinian Arc 2, Obelisk and Hawk, I have MK3 SBLs.
Simon
Ditto regarding Miles Davis.
I owned an Naim 250 active SBL system for years. I now own a lovely John Burns system driving Obs 2 with L300/P300 / 2 x HX100. The more consistently good sound we have referred to is furthered with the DV/SH combo IMO. I do occasionally miss that fast dynamic bass but otherwise not. CD sounds way better now as well. I know John pretty well. He's a top man. Mention Rob from Leeds next time you chat with him Simon.
ATB
Rob
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Last Sunday I was invited back for another listen to the Transrotor turntable, this time equipped with a Shelter Accord cartridge, about 1/3 the price of the previous cart (I will get the name and add this info later).
The dead silence of intro and inter-song grooves remained. Much better bass, reasonably well controlled, decent high end, no sibilance, not etched. A little less detail than the more expensive cart. But in our view it was a much more involving sound. The emotion of the music returned. The midrange was somewhat recessed which I am not crazy about. But this combination provided a much more involving experience than before. The music swung. The only thing that changed was the cartridge... well, we were drinking bourbon instead of scotch....
I am not sure my friend has his checkbook out yet, I sense some hesitancy. No doubt because this bit of kit still fetches a dear sum, even with the "budget cart"
Perhaps there is another cartridge that will dial it in to nirvana. Getting closer but not there. Tricky and expensive business with this level of equipment. Synergies are ever so important. And the Shelter is out of the box new and is settling in, maybe another 30 hours brings it on home.
I still feel my WTA and Grado Reference Master 1 "in my system" outplays it.
But we have wildly different approaches to sound reproduction. He has tube VAC amplification and Focal Scala Utopia (if memory serves).
I have VMPS speakers with ribbon mids and tweets, Bryston 28s ( sweet sounding amps believe it or not), Bel Canto Pre6, and a humble Hagerman Cornet 2 with ancient amperex tubes. My room is also acoustically treated.
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Having spent the best part of three days between customers and other distractions like telephone calls, lunch and coffee; listening to and comparing the Royale 400 with the Versalex, I'd like to share our initial impressions. This is in no way an exhaustive comparison as we decided to keep the music selection limited to a few tracks from a handful of records.
To the Mods. I hope you allow this post. Although I'm a registered dealer, these are my personal thoughts as a personal owner of WT products to assist other readers of this rarest of decks and in no way offered as a sales pitch.
Listening was carried out in our storefront with the 'house system' of Naim NAC282/HC/250-2DR Shahinian Arc2 on Fraimlite. Also used was Dynavector L200/HX100(prototype kindly loaned by Pear Audio) a Rega Osiris and a Consonance Cyber 10 Signature valve amp, so a reasonably broad spectrum of amplification. Phonostage used was Cyrus Signature/PSXR-2. Both decks played atop the WT table for the Royale 400 and a Dynavector XV1-t swapped between the two.
I'm not going to make comparative comments on the amps as all the same conclusions were drawn.
Having had the Versalex/XV1-t in my personal system for 12 months now I feel I'm pretty familiar with its strengths and weaknesses (no many of the later as any owner out there would already know). This, coming from an LP12/Radikal/Aro/Cadenza Bronze.
First up, a recently purchased copy of Sonny Rollins' Saxophone Colossus, Analogue Productions APRJ-7079. Track; Blue 7.
This great but simple mono recording sounded both rich and vibrant on the Versalex, with great rhythm but on the Royale 400 what sounded like a great recording was transformed into an awesome performance such was the startling lift in dynamics and expression. Also evident was a noticeable increase in soundstage in all directions with much greater grip and weight to all components but not in a 'hear me!, in yer face' way just more realistic. The often-overused cliché of a performer 'being there' was quite apt. Both Marc and I agreed it sounded much louder which of course it couldn't have been; such was the increase in dynamic range, which bodes particularly well for those like myself who often listen in the small hours and very low levels.
Next was Creedence Clearwater Revival's On the Bayou, Fantasy 8387 Steve Hoffman remastered QRP pressing. The title track has a wonderful rhythmic quality and swing, which isn't overly rehearsed to sound sterile and mechanical but loose and organic. Again the 400 comprehensively bettered the Versalex in this important aspect whilst retaining the dynamic lift.
Lastly Richard Thompson, one of my all-time favourite performers (seen him more times than any other act) and songwriters. Front Parlour Ballads on Diverse Records DIV009LP Track: The Boys From Mutton St.
Well, I like to think I know how he both sounds and performs (I own the same Lowden L27f guitar purely by chance) and with the Royale 400 I was totally blown away by how palpable he sounded but more than that how moving his playing and singing was, talk about goose bumps? Chord change after chord change got me time and again, frankly this was by far the best I've ever heard this album, neh, the best I've ever heard him outside of being live! Incredible.
What the Royale 400 is not is a completely different sounding deck from the Versalex in the way that some manufacturers or designers seek to appeal to every different customer's tastes. This, I believe is William Firebaugh's ultimate expression of his unique design philosophy. Tonally they sound more similar than they differ. It's the dynamic and musical expression that takes a significant step forward to a level I've not previously experienced. I've read comments that suggest that Bill has gone against a principle of making affordable high-end decks such is the cost of this thing. I don't subscribe to that. (I remember selling the WT Reference in 2001 for £4675; Naim’s prices have exactly doubled in that period and they have economies of scale too. The 400 in real money terms is no more expensive then and the Reference is trounced by the Versalex, let alone the Royale 400). No, I believe he realised that to achieve this level of performance with his current design ideas it takes this deck to achieve his goals.
Ah yes, cost. Well yesterday Pear Audio announced the UK pricing and considering we are now in post Brexit Britain I'm happy to inform that the deck itself is as predicted give or take at £10995 and the table at £2995, considerably less than the £7K initially suggested. We can all thank John for that one!
XV1-t has suffered a price increase to £5995 due to the slump in the pound.
All up the package is £20K. I say package, as I believe it should be considered such. Anyone spending this level on the deck and rack should consider the XV-1t and nothing lower imho. I'm sure it will prove to be very competitive, following in the Versalex's footsteps as a 'giant-killer'.
Tomorrow we intend one more comparison, Versalex/XV-1t vs Royale 400/XX2, just for fun. Cost wise, not a lot in it now that the Versalex is £3795.
The Versalex of course ripped up the rulebook in so many ways and in particular the one that suggests spending far less on the cartridge than the deck. Pa! The ‘t’ absolutely shines in a way it didn't on my Aro: sorry to those who have done that; as good as it is, the Aro's limited bandwidth holds back so much imho.
I very briefly tried the XX2 on the Royale 400 and it didn't grab me I have to say so a longer listen is definitely in order. Could it be that Bill has broken another 'rule' here? The ‘t’ on the Versalex sounds better than a lesser cart on the Royale 400?
So, it could be the best deck we've ever heard, it certainly is the biggest. In my last post I said there was no way I could house such a deck or even demo it at home, damn! So I got my tape measure out and was shocked by what i discovered. My setup at home sits on a 5-tier Isoblue rack, 3 components with an empty shelf between each and the deck on a Audiotech wall shelf. The Isoblue is actually 5mm wider!
Of course it nowhere near as deep but such is the depth of the amp that it has to be well clear of the skirting. In situ the Royale 400 will protrude a mere 2.5" more and I can loose the less than pretty wall shelf. Sod it, it's going home before John asks for it back though unlike those look-alike Naim boxes, there'll be no passing that one by without be noticed!!
I hope to go into more of the technical details that set the decks apart in another post with pictures of the hidden bits no-one's seen before.
Subject to a prolonged home demo I'm seriously considering stocking and becoming the first UK dealer to do so.
ATB
Simon
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Very well written post! I own an XV1s on my Versalex and it has lots of life left in it. So might as well forget the 400 for a couple of years until the 's' is worn out then go 400/XV1t. Thanks for saving me £9k in the short term :D :wink:
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Ha Ha Ha! Well, as we don't have an 's' to compare, I couldn't say either way. You may just be 'slummin'' it for a couple of years unnecessarily :lol:
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My equipment rack is by SolidSteel. One of the solutions for deck stand would involve a custom made maple shelf 4 inches thick. Drill insets on the bottom at appropriate spacing to accept the support cones. Timbernation can do this.
I'd want to check with SolidSteel to assure the welded cross members can support the combined weight of turntable and shelf.
But first I have to save up for the Royale 400. I wonder how long it would before the Mrs noticed some of her jewelry had gone missing?
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Good posts guys.
I'm lucky as a Carpenter and Joiner I make my own racks out of Baltic Birch Ply. John Burns liked them by they way Simon when he called in with my upgraded HX100's a few weeks ago. I plan to make a suitable sized and stable one for the 400. Not too difficult and I suspect will sound dam good as BBP is simply excellent for racks IMO. Should cost around £100 to include high grade ply and fixings 8)
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That's good to hear Rob. Do you have the boards veneered as do WT or left au naturelle? Any plans to offer them commercially? I can see some baulking at the cost of the WT even though John saved the day regarding its suggested retail price though it would be nice to have a plan B. Maybe even for me should I be tempted by the 400 :thumb:
Of course what many may not be aware of is the complexity of the 400 table's design. Having now built one I can appreciate why it's not Quadraspire money. In a future post I will show some images of it dismantled.
In a nutshell it's a compression design whereby it has 4 full length rods travelling through the entire structure. Threaded into the inserts on the top and the same at the bottom where it is tightened to squeeze the whole assembly together. On the bottom are added the 4 black machined from ali feet assemblies each threaded to allow levelling and each having 3 ceramic ball bearings to act as decouplers. Smaller version on which resides under the 400 instead of the squash balls. Under 50kg of load, squashed would be apt.
On the subjunctive of balls and feet, I've replaced mine with Sorbothene spheres from the Internet. Google said product and the first hit is the one. They are made for Gerrard 401 users. They come in 3 different hardnesses, 30, 50 & 70 dura. 50 is the ones you want, just £20 a set so worth a try.
For me, they really tighten up the bass and make the whole presentation more engaging, far more so than the Auditorium A23 Homage mat which imho killed the deck. (I'll try it on the 400 but I doubt it'll be different) Tighter yes but no flow and the spacial info stripped. The spheres don't suffer the same, just remove some bloom and give real grip. And before anyone asks, I tied them in the shootout too but alas the 400 prevailed :(
I read somewhere a comment that suggested Bill liked the A23 but that's not what I've heard, I'll say no more but would be interested to know the source of that one.
Simon
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Interesting comment on mats
I use a home made cork mat with pepporoni discs paired at the circumference and also inboard just out the record's label area.
For me this works very well, but it sure drew out the naysayers. I still use it - i like what I hear.
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Interesting Simon.
I've recently gone back to the standard mat for the reason you wrote. Also changed Auditorium 23 cables for Audio Note ISIS for similar reasons. They have the strengths of Mogami but remove some of those weaknesses and involves better than the sweet but reticent with Soild State A23 cables.
I thought Sorbothene removed life from the sound (a la Mains conditioners) when I used it in the past Simon??? Didn't use it as feet though. I will source a set on eBay as soon as. I would say the bass is the Versalex's weakest area (especially having come for an LP12) although the bass is like real bass unlike the said Linn but agree is just a little soft. By the way most of the US guys prefer the Amadeus to the Versalex. I just don't see that!
No I won't be offering any racks commercially. I leave mine bare as in profile pic. Ply is very difficult to satin well. The Versalex is now stain free as you will know. I wish you were closer it would be interesting to bring my rack down to compare with the WTL one made for the 400.
Also how did you find the DV amps driving Shahinians? John says your Rega gear sounds really good. You changed from 2 x Naim 500's because of the hum?? I feel the Dv from Naim was positive in a similar way to LP12 to Versalex......
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I've heard the Cork mat might be a good move with WTL before GE. My dealer uses cork blocks under the feet of his CD players/amps and swears by it. Haven't given a go yet. BBP is so good so don't want to spoil it.
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Couldn't source 50mm Sorbothane spheres (only 40mm) so bought 50mm hemispheres and will glue together. Feedback to follow....
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Hey Rob, 40 mm is what you need not 50
http://www.peakhifi.co.uk/cgi-bin/ecom.cgi?Command=ShowProduct&db_pid=166
50 dura
Those ones on ebay are not sorbothene but some other stuff,the Peak Hifi
ones are
Good luck
Simon
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Interesting Simon.
I've recently gone back to the standard mat for the reason you wrote. Also changed Auditorium 23 cables for Audio Note ISIS for similar reasons. They have the strengths of Mogami but remove some of those weaknesses and involves better than the sweet but reticent with Soild State A23 cables.
I thought Sorbothene removed life from the sound (a la Mains conditioners) when I used it in the past Simon??? Didn't use it as feet though. I will source a set on eBay as soon as. I would say the bass is the Versalex's weakest area (especially having come for an LP12) although the bass is like real bass unlike the said Linn but agree is just a little soft. By the way most of the US guys prefer the Amadeus to the Versalex. I just don't see that!
No I won't be offering any racks commercially. I leave mine bare as in profile pic. Ply is very difficult to satin well. The Versalex is now stain free as you will know. I wish you were closer it would be interesting to bring my rack down to compare with the WTL one made for the 400.
Also how did you find the DV amps driving Shahinians? John says your Rega gear sounds really good. You changed from 2 x Naim 500's because of the hum?? I feel the Dv from Naim was positive in a similar way to LP12 to Versalex......
Seems like we on the same wavelength.
We still have the DV amps but John did warn me that the HX100 is an older preproduction sample and not fully representative of DV's abilities. I'm somewhat glad he did as I have mixed feelings which I intend to discuss with him next week. I'm keen to have a full Pear system on offer and really champing at the bit to hear the 301 HX100 current spec.
Right now the 200 has a sweet spot around 12-1 on the volume below which it's rather flat and above is unrefined, strange that.
The Rega Ref gear is really quite special and a great pity it gets so little press especially the IOS phono stage which is jaw dropping, even John was taken aback but when he asked the price said 'oh,I can live with that'. £4k vs £650 for the P75 but we agreed there was a huge performance gap.
The Osiris is known for its phenomenal grip and this for me balances out the Versalex bass issue where the DV does not especially at home where I really didn't get the results I hopes for. Then again SBLS 4 inches off the wall and the TT on aN Audiotech wall shelf help in the tightness. My fear is that the 400 may unbalance my setup and require more system work such a re the pitfulls of product substitution.
Regarding amp hum on the Naim, we'll it certainly caused issues for my wife especially when trying to what tv alone and a full 500 set suddenly chimes up! But that was not the reason for moving it on, I needed capital for something unrelated and felt a lesser Naim system would result in too much negativity,tears in beer :cry:
I buy more music now than ever so something must be right?
ATB
Simon
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I ordered the feet after a few glasses of a very nice 'Red' last night Simon so simply oops! Now reordered 4 at 40mm from Peak Hif. £22 to include postage.
I have two of the latest spec HX100's rebuilt by John. Definitely a smoother listen than the older model and resolves more. Also Simon the L300/P300 feeding them via AN ISIS Balanced XLR's is a lot better than the L200/RCA path. Unrefined? No way. Let's hope Jonathan Davies steps up the plate and produces a batch of both HX100's and the upgraded L301. He's a very clever guy but his business acumen???
Cheers
Rob
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I ordered the feet after a few glasses of a very nice 'Red' last night Simon so simply oops! Now reordered 4 at 40mm from Peak Hif. £22 to include postage.
I have two of the latest spec HX100's rebuilt by John. Definitely a smoother listen than the older model and resolves more. Also Simon the L300/P300 feeding them via AN ISIS Balanced XLR's is a lot better than the L200/RCA path. Unrefined? No way. Let's hope Jonathan Davies steps up the plate and produces a batch of both HX100's and the upgraded L301. He's a very clever guy but his business acumen???
Cheers
Rob
I don't know if it has any bearing on it but I'm using Mogami XLR not RCA between the 200 and 100. For the comparison I avoided using any high-end cabling. Unrefined may be a poor terminology, lets call it a tad raucous; one just wants to back off the volume pretty quickly whereas with the Consonence the sound remained sweet to the point when it clipped and compressed as an 11 watt value amp into Arcs will. The Rega though just stays composed until you can't take the SPL any higher. Strange thing though, the Osiris sound 95% the same as the valve amp. I always thought the Osiris had what I perceived as a valve sound (the Consonence is Marc's, we don't sell them or any such). Massively dynamic more so than all the others tested. Oh bugger, I've just made this the amp comparison I said I wouldn't :duh:
let me know what you make of the spheres?
FWIW just tried the A23 on the 400. Movin' on....
ATB
Simon
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FWIW I changed from Mogami IC's because I found them too "raucous" with DV. John swears by them. I prefer the Mogami speaker cables to their IC's but still a little rough and congested for me although unquestionably musical. A23 cables were Sweet but not as engaging or flowing with my SS amps. Again it took the Audio Note ISIS cables to expose it fully. The US guys love Auditorium.
Regarding the mat I used it for over a year happily. I was told by a reliable US source that Firebaugh liked the mat so not sure what to think about that one. I liked it's positives over the standard mat (included no static) but always felt something was perhaps missing. Once I change to the 'better' cables and tried the standard mat again I realised it was involvement. I'm a emotional rather than analytical listener which I believe is relevant here. You obviously picked up the A23 mat deficiencies quicker than cloth ears here!
Interesting my dealer is a big Audio Note fan and retailer. I really like their CD transports and DAC's but not the lower (ish) end amps and speakers. I found the bass lumpy and there was a midrange glare. However last week I got chance to hear the Jinru Integrated with the ANE SPE signature speakers £29k retail for the two. I might be persuaded! That SET sound when right is really good. More listening needed with varied genres of music though before parting with my DV/SH gear.
I've never heard the Rega Reference gear which you obviously love. More than one road leads hey?
ATB
Rob
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Thank you Rob, I shall try some other cables with the DV as I'd really like to get it dialed in. The AN Isis, we are talking copper not silver here? I've just seen the prices.
Back to the mat, I no longer suffer the dreaded static issue with the standard mat, Jeez that's scary with any XV.
Years ago Pete Partington made little non threaded top spikes for his stands called Toppers. They were stuck on with 5mm diameter double sided dots. I applied 4, 12,3,6 and 9 on a clock 1 inch in and the mat stays put and the record seems static free. I suspect placing and lifting it on a spinning platter charges it more when the mat slips.
Like you I judge systems on an emotional level rather than detail and imaging and all the other hifi stuff though it's nice to have some of that too of course. Nothing is worse than being compelled to change a disc mid-way.
Back to the 400 and a plot is cooking to get it home. My only concern lies with the rack changing things not the deck. I use Isoblue and resent tried the Quadraspire Baboon which is great but leaned everything out for me and lost that flow again, I really hope the 400 doesn't do that as I have no other ready solution. Zero room for 2 racks. Fingers crossed.
Simon
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Correct Simon. ISIS is Audio Note's top copper cable. It started when my HX100's went on melt down which lead to John upgrading my HX100's from his first batch of JD parts. After looking for a solution as to why both my amps went up in a puff of smoke John conferred with JD who after analysing my system told me to do away with shielded mains cables. I was using Atlas EOS at the time. My dealer suggesting trying the ISIS mains cables which aren't shielded. They sound excellent! Then tried the IC'S, also excellent so bought three sets to replace A23's (the XLR's I managed to pick up S/H). Finally speaker cables. I again managed to pick up a S/H 5.5m stereo pair half retail price at £1800. Worth it. I was concerned at each step that with ISIS being voiced for valve amps and high efficiency speakers might be bass light and 'bright' or simply not quite work. Nope! A refined Mogami sound with more detail resolution and emotion. I was up until midnight last night listening to vinyl. Old Dylan and Christie Moore albums sounded better than ever.
400 wise. I can tell that you are trying to 'wing it' :D. Baltic Birch Ply mate. Simple construction out of 18mm boards. No spikes/rubber etc. Tried them included isolation boards for each tier. Forget it. Just fixings through the sides of each tier and four plastic feet at the base otherwise ply only. A 150mm sphere cut out of the centre of each board really works. That was a good tip from Chaz an AudioCircle member. Flow is very good and doesn't flesh out. Life and energy without being strident. I'm just too far away to help in a hands on way. However if you know a Joiner (or are handy yourself) I'm happy to provide him/you with the details of how I constructed mine. The 400 just needs stronger fixings across the top horizontal side sections over standard rack and increased dimensions of course. I'm going to make mine just big enough. Yours will have to be multi tiered of course but so what? Let me know if I can be of help.
Best
Rob
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'Wing it'? I think my galaxy s5 spelling correction thingy cocked up or my thoughts.
I mean I hope the 400 rack for the deck works with the rest of the kit as well as the deck, the Q Bamboo didn't.
Thanks for the kind offer, I'm reasonably handy but this is beyond my skill level. No being rude but would hope that Bill's table with its decupoupled legs and isolation feet are worth the asking price and all the trouble and costs. The legs are extrusions which for such a low volume product will have sky high initial costs even in China.
Still it's all academic at the moment as it'll need aethestic aproval :nono:
Substituted the Mogis for a pair of Eichman ICS and that raucousness has gone. Note to self: only trust your own ears :lol:
John did warn me about screened mains leads on DV sorry to hear it was you that had to suffer .
Simon
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Yep i definitely misunderstood you. Of course you buy at trade and I retail so being able to make a very good sounding rack at a saving of £3k is relevant to me. Anyway looks like my Mogi IC's might be the route of the raucousness advise might have come up trumps. Even my 52 year old cloth ears get it right sometimes :D Rob
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Yep i definitely misunderstood you. Of course you buy at trade and I retail so being able to make a very good sounding rack at a saving of £3k is relevant to me. Anyway looks like my Mogi IC's might be the route of the raucousness advise might have come up trumps. Even my 52 year old cloth ears get it right sometimes :D Rob
Just remembered that one of my customers who has a full 500 active Ovator 800 system is a bespoke carpenter with his own workshop. He does period house stuff like solid oak staircases and Windows etc.
Won't be cheap though but probably less than the 400 so will bear it in mind, thanks again for the offer.
We're green for next week home install so I'll post after then with some pics too
ATB
Simon
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On the subjunctive of balls and feet, I've replaced mine with Sorbothene spheres from the Internet. Google said product and the first hit is the one. They are made for Gerrard 401 users. They come in 3 different hardnesses, 30, 50 & 70 dura. 50 is the ones you want, just £20 a set so worth a try.
For me, they really tighten up the bass and make the whole presentation more engaging, far more so than the Auditorium A23 Homage mat which imho killed the deck. (I'll try it on the 400 but I doubt it'll be different) Tighter yes but no flow and the spacial info stripped. The spheres don't suffer the same, just remove some bloom and give real grip. And before anyone asks, I tied them in the shootout too but alas the 400 prevailed :(
Nice one Simon. The Sorbothane feet do just as you wrote (as well as lower surface noise) .
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An update on the TransRotor table-
My friend dropped me a line a few days ago to say he had changed the cartridge loading and also adjusted speaker toe in, the latter a suggestion I made.
Apparently this made a major improvement to upper end tinkle and soundstage. And he wrote a check for the deck.
Now I wonder if we missed the boat on that first cartridge by not having optimal loading. Perhaps it doesn't matter - $11k is A lot of dough and I wouldn't be surprised at hesitancy to pay that kind of money no matter the sound. So is $3500 on top of the not inconsequential cost of the TT itself.
I haven't heard it yet, perhaps next weekend. I just wanted to share this update in the interest of fairness to Transrotor.
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Last year I heard a system that had an $18K TT with a $5K tonearm (I forget the cartridge), a $40K Vitus phono preamp, VTL 450 monoblock amps and $50K Rockport speakers and I was way underwhelmed. My modest analog system sounded better in many respects. I think that part of it was the room which was specially designed for audio. It was too dead. No life to the music.
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Nice one Simon. The Sorbothane feet do just as you wrote (as well as lower surface noise) .
Excellent news Rob. Glad my old ears aren't deceiving me just yet :lol:
I'm working on a post regarding the 400 I've had at home for the past week. Very enlightening. Be forewarned though that it will reflect a 100% bias towards my own personal circumstances and NOT a review or an opinion for the purposes as a sales pitch. :D
Simon
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Last year I heard a system that had an $18K TT with a $5K tonearm (I forget the cartridge), a $40K Vitus phono preamp, VTL 450 monoblock amps and $50K Rockport speakers and I was way underwhelmed. My modest analog system sounded better in many respects. I think that part of it was the room which was specially designed for audio. It was too dead. No life to the music.
Well that just goes to show doesn't it? Money doesn't always guarantee success but in fairness so much is down to installation but more importantly the installer being able to judge when something isn't right, musically. I too have heard many megabuck systems sound less than engaging.
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Two weeks in now and what a rollercoaster this one has been. This is because I had no choice but to break rule #1, only change one item at a time. :duh:
Yep, no choice but to use the 400 dedicated table and that has had such a profound influence on the system in general that I've been forced to make other changes to rebalanced the system.
From the outset it's clear to me that the Rega gear on the 400 rack was the issue in much the same way I found when I tried the Quadraspire SVT Bamboo. So I swapped out the Osiris for the DV 200L/HX100 (P75 on standby too). John warned me that: a) the 200 is no 300 and more importantly, b) the HX100 was an early prototype of which cannot be updated and to treat it as a 'flavour' test of the DV sound. Without going into too much detail it wasn't right for me especially when I compared it to the Rega with it on the Isoblue base plonked in front of the 400 table. (zero opportunity for more than one table, ever).
When I read Rob400's comment ''However last week I got chance to hear the Jinru Integrated with the ANE SPE signature speakers £29k retail for the two. I might be persuaded! That SET sound when right is really good'', that really got me thinking. As it happens we have a Tom Evans Linear A in our stock room (don't ask!) and as luck would have it this thing actually fits on the 400 table. Result? PURE MAGIC :thumb: The most engaging, lifelike sound that has ever graced my room. That's with it partnered with the DV 200L. Now if only there was a DV L301 ready :wink:
The Royale 400, the point of this thread, is sounding nothing short of amazing. Such control and grip that the Versalex lacks, albeit when compared to my normal installation. The problem here is that at 60cmx50cm and 50kg it's impossible to swap the decks unless you just happen to be Geoff Capes. In a way that's a good thing as I've only been listening via the 400 rather than a-b-ing all the time.
Trying to isolate other improvements over the Versalex, I'd say that the 16 inch arm has a benefit for tracking though only for the first track or two. My understanding is that Bill set the geo on the Versalex such that maximum TE was set to the outer rather than the inner grooves on account of the extra linear speed. I've often noticed that the Versalex has a slight forwardness lift for the first track and from there on stays incredibly linear even in the inner groove. Whereas, the 400 is totally constant throughout the side. I haven't heard any other improvements or degradation that I can identify to date regarding the arm.
The Royale 400 clearly achieves it's design goal, to improve on the Versalex's considerable strengths rather than having a different 'voice'. a SUPER Versalex if you will and it obviously took this kind of engineering to achieve it. Now Bill, any chance of a Royale 266? :lol:
So, next week is crunch time. The 400 is returned and the Versalex goes back on the wall (not an option for the 400 of course. Although I have a suspended wooden floor, the shear weight of the combo is such that footfall problems are rare), I'll slot in the Quadraspire SVT Bamboo to accommodate the Linear A. Only then will I know if I have to have one :) The misses is neutral on this which is better than I expected.
ATB
Simon
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Interesting and well articulated post Simon. I'm not surprised that you enjoyed the Tom Evans with the 400. Natural, real and engaging. I now really do believe that the WT sound marries extremely well with a top SET amp and high efficiency speakers. Not surprised that a lot of the US guys go with Line Magnetic/ DeVore combos. Let us know how you get on going back to the Versalex :D
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Interesting and well articulated post Simon. I'm not surprised that you enjoyed the Tom Evans with the 400. Natural, real and engaging. I now really do believe that the WT sound marries extremely well with a top SET amp and high efficiency speakers. Not surprised that a lot of the US guys go with Line Magnetic/ DeVore combos. Let us know how you get on going back to the Versalex :D
Yeah, sure will.
The A drives my SBLs brilliantly which did surprise me somewhat and a great sonic match, for me. Tom recommends speakers of 87dB+, check. He also claims it to be linear in output between 5-10 ohms which I don't think the SBLs fall outside of hence its evenness top to bottom. Drives like a bastard too :lol:
ATB
Simon
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Hi Rob
Assuming you have:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=148764)
Have you tried?:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=148765)
If not do give it a go and let me know what you think.
ATB
Simon
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In situ.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=148766)
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Interesting and well articulated post Simon. I'm not surprised that you enjoyed the Tom Evans with the 400. Natural, real and engaging. I now really do believe that the WT sound marries extremely well with a top SET amp and high efficiency speakers. Not surprised that a lot of the US guys go with Line Magnetic/ DeVore combos. Let us know how you get on going back to the Versalex :D
Holy cow Rob, I've just noticed your profile update!!!
Yesterday morning saw the return of the 400 and last night I reinstalled the Rega gear and Versalex (all kept on for the 2 weeks I had other gear).
First shock, how small the Versalex seams after 2 weeks with the 400 and I always considered it a bit big after 29 years of LP. A very odd sensation.
Second shock. The Linear A driven by the L200 and back to the Osiris. OMG! Good night transistors
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The 400 looks great Simon. The custom rack also. I love BBP though. You must buy a 400 at trade rates mate! It's a no brainer if you have the funds surely!
Yep my DV's and Obs 2 are sold. All the Audio Note gear is on a 8 week build time so just listening to a pair of Larcs driven by a Densen B130 that I normally use with the tele so will leave the counterweight position until the new gear arrives and is run in. Interestingly the sound now is more compressed and not as controlled as before but a little sweeter. The latest HX100 mods are an improvement in detail resolution and control but I found that it's gone backwards regarding hardness a la HX1.2. It took a few weeks and a second pair of ears to gain full realisation. After your latest experiences and new found preference be warned!
The less good valve gear equates to a lumpy bass and shy top end ..... but.... When I heard the Jinro driving AN-E SPe/HE's with ISIS cable it was the beginning of a new phase for me. Same retail as the DV/SH combo I was using by the way. The sound is more immediate without being forced. More 'real' and less hard. A 400 is still on my radar though.
Best
Rob
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The 400 looks great Simon. The custom rack also. I love BBP though. You must buy a 400 at trade rates mate! It's a no brainer if you have the funds surely!
Yep my DV's and Obs 2 are sold. All the Audio Note gear is on a 8 week build time so just listening to a pair of Larcs driven by a Densen B130 that I normally use with the tele so will leave the counterweight position until the new gear arrives and is run in. Interestingly the sound now is more compressed and not as controlled as before but a little sweeter. The latest HX100 mods are an improvement in detail resolution and control but I found that it's gone backwards regarding hardness a la HX1.2. It took a few weeks and a second pair of ears to gain full realisation. After your latest experiences and new found preference be warned!
The less good valve gear equates to a lumpy bass and shy top end ..... but.... When I heard the Jinro driving AN-E SPe/HE's with ISIS cable it was the beginning of a new phase for me. Same retail as the DV/SH combo I was using by the way. The sound is more immediate without being forced. More 'real' and less hard. A 400 is still on my radar though.
Best
Rob
Well many congratulations on your new system, it's not that often I see anyone change everything in one go, such a wholesale change.
The problem for me is the rack with only 2 usable shelves for a top loading CD player, full size Phonostage and a pre and the Linear A which gobbles up the whole of the lower shelf. It posses as many questions as it solves.
The system as a whole with the 400 was revelatory with none of the soggy lumpy bass you mentioned, far from it although the bass was huge, 500 style but far more textural. The top end has real bite, Led Zep 3 'Since I've been loving you', guitar sounded so right, taught and biting but not ear fatiguing. All the space only a tube can do to and Plant's sultry voice warm and rich, until he screams of course. The Linear A really can rock as well as be beautiful. Dusty in Memphis was gorgeous, best ever. The big surprise was the match with the SBLs with NACA5! Cables like Chord Odyssey killed it dead. May look at A23 Green sometime, are you still using them?
Interesting comment you made regarding the HX100 mods, I'll keep a guarded ear out if and when Jonathon ever gets the production running. I have to say how impressed I am with the L200 though, can't wait to hear the 300/301 though Jon warned me that unlike the 200, the 300's volume rises fast a la Naim which pisses me off greatly as I like to,listen at very low levels late at night. Was that the case for you though? Rega is the same, a stab on the remote and bam, it's too loud. The 200 has all the gain from 1pm so it's perfect.
This week I'll try the amp combo on an SVT Bamboo with the Versalex and hope I get most of what I had but doubt I will. 400 on a floor mounted rack vs Versalex on the wall, could be interesting.
Most interesting was my long suffering wife's reaction stating it was the largest difference she'd ever experienced and that from someone who never listens with me and has no HiFi interests. The 2 slow numbers on Paul Weller's Stanley Rd is her benchmark, gutterally emotional.
If the 400 is a must then she's also not adverse to redoing the room (she's always hated that big piece of furniture so a win win all round).
Do let me know how you get on, it's a long wait but I'm sure it will be worth it.
ATB
Simon
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I finally got around to collecting my thoughts and taking some more detailed images of the 400 and its construction and posted them on my blog page. To save the chore of repeating it all, here'a a link.
http://blog.audiot.co.uk/blog/2016/9/9/the-well-tempered-royale-400-turntable-50kg-of-sheer-musical-joy
(http://blog.audiot.co.uk/blog/2016/9/9/the-well-tempered-royale-400-turntable-50kg-of-sheer-musical-joy)
Simon
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Good work Simon!
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Good work Simon!
Thanks Rob. You can't be too far away from your new system?
FTR I have the system at home on the Quadraspire Bamboo and it sounds dandy but the construction is such that it sways back and forth like a spring due to footfall with the Isis on the top.
I will try the 400 next weekend after a customer home demo with it next Thursday. He had a short listen vs the Versalex which he's been considering for some time, we were both shocked when going back to the Versalex.
I suspect the pendulum effect will be even worse. If so I'll consider the 400 rack. John says one can be made with differing spacing and shelf numbers but will cost more. It took quite a lot to disturb the deck when using this rack when I had it home and my wife actually prefers the overall system appearance with it, lucky me. :D
I guess you'll be making new supports for your 26'' deep Jinro? Due let us know how you get on.
ATB
Simon
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Hi Simon
The 400 stand does look the part but that's a 'helluva' retail price! With you acquiring at trade it seems a no brainer to me though even if you go for custom dimensions. My Versalex sounds great sat on Baltic Birch Ply. I am going to make a BBP one tier rack for the Jinro (3 months to wait still) so you obviously won't regret it if you can make it work for you.
Interestingly I picked up a Puresound P10 phono stage with step up last week and that lovely valve sound comes through with it. I prefer it to the DVP75 that I loaned form Audio Councel after the sale of my L300 even with the Densen B130/ Larc combi that I'm using whilst waiting on the new gear.. I was obviously a 'valve guy' without knowing it. It took the Jinro to covert me though. The bass was the biggest surprise. Partnered with ANE SPe HE speakers it's the most 'realistic' bass that I've yet heard.
I love the Well Tempered turntables though and although my dealer is pushing the soon to be released Audio Note TT3 a 400 is the most likely choice for me. Hopefully the reliability will be good. I know John had some issues with earthing on his 400 and I have had a couple of hiccups with the Versalex (poor plinth finish and leaking arm cup). I feel that the guys in China let Firebaugh down somewhat. But there's no denying the decks are LP12/Rega munchers in my humble estimation!!
Best
Rob
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Hi Rob,
Yes John told me about the leaking bowl. That was the old design when it had a drain plug but now that's been removed and the bowl is unbroken it's sorted.
John did have earthing issues and I discovered a new issue when the deck is not partnered to the P75 in that upon start-up or speed change there is some motor noise bleed. Frank sent, via John an arm that has a terminal block just like the Versalex and that fixed it. It seems that routing the signal to the output sockets at the back was the issue. I left out commenting on the Balanced sockets you can see in one of the images as John hopes they'll be deleted in production.
One thing I should mention which John has been pushing for for the Versalex is a single bolt adjuster for arm height and the 400 has this. This was from Johns idea for the same with the Linn which is of course their standard, a scolloped arm collar which in effect is a three point fixing. NO MORE WOBLY ARMS and twin bolts :duh:
No issues on finish and to be honest there's little else at risk other than the electronics due to the designs engineering simplicity. It could/should be the last deck we'll ever need :thumb:
ATB
SImon
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OK....
Next weekend we are doing a shoot out.
In one corner the Transrotor Rondino with Shelter Accord cartridge.
And in the other a Well Tempered Amadeus with Grado Reference Master 1.
And I'll bring along my Hagerman Cornet2 phono preamp (built by yours truly) and two distinctly different sets of vintage tubes: RCA black plate and Amperex Bugle Boys 12ax7/12au7. Late '40's early '50s vintage.
My friend and I have radically different approaches to downstream electronics and speakers. Last weekend he spent some time at my place listening to a wide range of music. Finished up with Sonny Rollins Way out West. A reissue from 7-8 years ago.
I loaned him the record and he reports very little sonic difference. And of course this begets the question:
Can a record player made from a golf ball, tinker toy rod, fishing line and sewing thread hold its own against mass and magnets?
Stay tuned.
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Well, how did it go then? Please share.
K
OK....
Next weekend we are doing a shoot out.
In one corner the Transrotor Rondino with Shelter Accord cartridge.
And in the other a Well Tempered Amadeus with Grado Reference Master 1.
And I'll bring along my Hagerman Cornet2 phono preamp (built by yours truly) and two distinctly different sets of vintage tubes: RCA black plate and Amperex Bugle Boys 12ax7/12au7. Late '40's early '50s vintage.
My friend and I have radically different approaches to downstream electronics and speakers. Last weekend he spent some time at my place listening to a wide range of music. Finished up with Sonny Rollins Way out West. A reissue from 7-8 years ago.
I loaned him the record and he reports very little sonic difference. And of course this begets the question:
Can a record player made from a golf ball, tinker toy rod, fishing line and sewing thread hold its own against mass and magnets?
Stay tuned.
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Comments coming this weekend!
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This update is long overdue.
I unplugged my WTA from my system, put a piece of electricians tape over the tone arm rest slot (i have the older version with the more stout tone arm support) and put it in the trunk of my car and drove 2 doors down to my neighbor's house.
We set the TT next to his Rondino and played a few records on his rig.
Since my last report he made some changes to cartridge (Shelter Accord) loading and it was a much livelier sound than i remembered. It sounded great! Lots of detail, excellent extension on both ends of the spectrum. And dead quiet. The magentic drive is something to listen to... But not hear.
WTA is up. We used my cable since his uses a DIN connector on TT end. My cable is Morrow MA-4. And my cartridge is the Grado Reference Master which doesnt have many fans here.
Initial impressions were not great. Sound was on the dull side, the sparkle factor was missing in action. As the afternoon wore on, it improved somewhat but never matched the presentation of the Shelter. PRAT was good, not outstanding. The WTA is also very quiet. My friend mentioned it was significant quieter in this system than the VPI he had before the Transrotor. The WTA is a very quiet table, its remarkable how well it compared to the magntic drive
Some observations: we did not follow good scientific process- to change only one parameter keeping the rest constant. We used different cables and different cartridges, one costing significantly more than the other. Neither of us was interested in swapping around cartridges -it can be challeging to dial in a cart although much less so with the WTA We also could not instantly swap sources although that was not problematic, the sonic signatures being so different. I wish i broughtbalong my Cornet2 phono pre. Would have been interesting to compare to the VAC phono section and let us do instant comparisons. We has some duplicate elpees.
Takeaways: in my system the WTA /Grado / Hagerman Cornet2 is incredibly synergistic with the rest of my system (Bel Canto Pre 6, Bryston 28 bsst2, VMPS RM 30 speakers, morrow wires) Lots of sparkle, excellen extension on both ends and PRAT in spades. I also have a glorious 3 dimensional soundfield that extends well beyond the speakers with images that present as if listening to surround sound sacd. Timbrely my system and that of my friend is similar. But his soundfield is speaker plane bound and he comments often on my system's ability to throw a 3d soundstage.
Its all about how the components interact with each other to create the overall sonic abilities of the gear. Its amazing how one part can impact the whole.
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The 400 looks great Simon. The custom rack also. I love BBP though. You must buy a 400 at trade rates mate! It's a no brainer if you have the funds surely!
Yep my DV's and Obs 2 are sold. All the Audio Note gear is on a 8 week build time so just listening to a pair of Larcs driven by a Densen B130 that I normally use with the tele so will leave the counterweight position until the new gear arrives and is run in. Interestingly the sound now is more compressed and not as controlled as before but a little sweeter. The latest HX100 mods are an improvement in detail resolution and control but I found that it's gone backwards regarding hardness a la HX1.2. It took a few weeks and a second pair of ears to gain full realisation. After your latest experiences and new found preference be warned!
The less good valve gear equates to a lumpy bass and shy top end ..... but.... When I heard the Jinro driving AN-E SPe/HE's with ISIS cable it was the beginning of a new phase for me. Same retail as the DV/SH combo I was using by the way. The sound is more immediate without being forced. More 'real' and less hard. A 400 is still on my radar though.
Best
Rob
Hey Rob,
Long time, no hear.
I'm assuming you have your AN gear now? How is it and how well does the Versalex integrate?
I bought the Linear A and have sent it back to upgrade to MK11. Should be back next Tuesday, Tom insists it will blow my mind :lol:
I've held off on the 400 for now, as since my counterweight configuration change I'm getting fantastic results with the Versalex/XV-1t. Maybe when the £ recovers.
Cheers
K
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Hi Simon.
Actually still waiting. I guess the October Audio Note 10% price increase (first in 7 years) has overloaded production. Speakers were supposed to arrive last week so imminent. Jinro hopefully not far behind. The Audio Note CD player is excellent. Bridges the gap between Densen 440xs and my turntable by around half. Very "vinyl" like sound wise.
Interestingly I took my BBP rack to Audio Councel to compare with his Ikea rack and guess what? The Ikea sounded better :o. Clearly as well! I was pretty humbled. I subsequently bought several Lack coffee and standard tables, added extra legs and reduced their size etc. The result is a rack that cost 50 quid and has improved my system sound. The Versalex seems to have benefited the most. More open with less surface noise and better noise floor. Sadly the Densen integrated and Shahinian Larcs aren't L300/HX100/ Obs to realise the full effect but it's a clear improvement after several weeks listening.
I will post a pic once the amp arrives. 400 Royale is definitely the next deck for me after establishing the Audio note gear into my system.
So are you still using SBL's with the Linear A?
Rob
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Hi Simon.
Actually still waiting. I guess the October Audio Note 10% price increase (first in 7 years) has overloaded production. Speakers were supposed to arrive last week so imminent. Jinro hopefully not far behind. The Audio Note CD player is excellent. Bridges the gap between Densen 440xs and my turntable by around half. Very "vinyl" like sound wise.
Interestingly I took my BBP rack to Audio Councel to compare with his Ikea rack and guess what? The Ikea sounded better :o. Clearly as well! I was pretty humbled. I subsequently bought several Lack coffee and standard tables, added extra legs and reduced their size etc. The result is a rack that cost 50 quid and has improved my system sound. The Versalex seems to have benefited the most. More open with less surface noise and better noise floor. Sadly the Densen integrated and Shahinian Larcs aren't L300/HX100/ Obs to realise the full effect but it's a clear improvement after several weeks listening.
I will post a pic once the amp arrives. 400 Royale is definitely the next deck for me after establishing the Audio note gear into my system.
So are you still using SBL's with the Linear A?
Rob
Hi Rob,
Well, all good things come to those who wait; or so they say :D
Very interesting/sad about the BBP tables though; to be outshone by Ikea :scratch: I used to use a LACK with the bottom removed and the 'honeycombe' ripped out; most important that, under my LP12 as prescribed by my then Linn rep, worked a treat. How have you configured the LACKs? All lined up in a row?
Currently the Linear A is being upgraded to MK11 (unheard :duh:) hoping it arrives back today but we are talking about TE :lol: I pulled the trigger upon listening to the matching Vibe line-stage.
Having said that, with the recent total system rebuild my set-up has never sounded so good especially with the Symetrix tonearm mod I mentioned earlier; did you try it? Repeatably miles better. Went back to standard config again last night, dull!! I therefore hope the TE gear maintains the sonic gap I had before, if not I won't loose out but I just have to scratch that itch. It must be being in my mid 50s and considering values :lol:
ATB
Simon
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Rob, I too, am interested in your system updates! Guess you best be changing your avatar soon as well! I am still plugging along, no WT table yet, but still happily having fun with the Naim/Larcs, they are very fun little speakers! Take care mate!
Tim
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Hi Tim.
Jinro due this week. The AN-E SPe HE speakers are fantastic! In truth good as Shahinian's are these are a better listen. Big open, clean with a well integrated and powerfiul bass. My Veralex/XV1s has now moved even further away from the CD player. The Puersound SUT and Phono might have something to do with that but vinyl has never sounded so good in my place and I'm having to use my Densen integrated whilst waiting for the big SET. Hope you are well. More to follow. Rob
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Indeed, once you find that setup which gets to your soul, nothing else will do. Audio Note does it for many. I am not sure if I have found "it" yet for me. But I don't fuss over it so much anymore and am just enjoying what I have and the music it makes. Will be watching this space though! All is well.
Tim
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The Jinro SET amp now graces my system and is a superb match for my AN-E SPe HE speakers. Together they produce an excellent sound. My Versalex/XV1s fits in nicely also with an obvious synergy. 'Less hifi more music" is an over used cliche in the industry but it definitely applies here. Natural, organic with an ease that evades any transistor amp that I've heard. Nothing polite about the sound though. It has plenty of balls with on point PRAT and powerful bass. I think the 400 Royale would be really something now. All good things..........
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154978)
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The Jinro SET amp now graces my system and is a superb match for my AN-E SPe HE speakers. Together they produce an excellent sound. My Versalex/XV1s fits in nicely also with an obvious synergy. 'Less hifi more music" is an over used cliche in the industry but it definitely applies here. Natural, organic with an ease that evades any transistor amp that I've heard. Nothing polite about the sound though. It has plenty of balls with on point PRAT and powerful bass. I think the 400 Royale would be really something now. All good things..........
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154978)
Many congrats Rob, like me I know you will be delighted with you journey's new turn. What Phonostage are you using or is it built into the pre?
I now have the Linear A Mk11 installed with all new Electo Harmonix matched double quad tube sets (£123) and currently a Vibe (awaiting the Pulse power supply) and a loaner Groove Anniversary mk11 awaiting delivery of the Groove SRX MK11. Both the Pulse and SRX will totally transform what is already a system the mirrors exactly your comments with my SBLs.
I was reading the over lengthy posts of Arthur Salvatore at high-end audio.com and one comment he made really struck home, that that a truly great system cunjures up surprises even in familiar music, true that.
I totally agree re 400. I'll have to hold off for a while having forked our for a whole new amp/Phonostage. Need to move the Rega on and haven't decided what to do re digital which now will get even less play seeing as the gap between the Isis and the Versalex have just become a massive chasm.
Certainly a new phase in my journey. Enjoy yours and please post more inc photos
ATB
Simon
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Thanks Simon.
No phono with the Jinro (or remote :o). I've bought a Puresound SUT and phono and its excellent for a grand. I'm looking at the Audio Note S4 SUT as my next but one upgrade but as you will appreciate after so many new component purchased recently funds are limited for a while. I believe though that using a top cartridge and not feeding it through an equivalent quality phono is folly! The diminutive DVP75 is good up to XX2 but once we hit the XV1 level better is needed. I haven't heard your combo but if you're happy with it then it will be a good un.
It doesn't look like you will be going back to Transistors any time soon and I echo that feeling. Even the excellent DV's or Naim's are innately hard sounding by comparison especially with constantly teetering on it digitally recorded/transfered material.
I've just enjoyed a few hours of CD playback actually. I've heard the ISIS and liked it but I have to say that the two box AN tube players get much closer to our turntables sonically. The 4.1 Balanced DAC is terrific although it retails now at 11700 gbp :o. I've feel that we have to spend at least twice as much on the CD hardware to narrow the gap between the best of vinyl and the best of CD. As a dealer I'm sure you get to hear more gear than I do but I heard even a level 2 AN transport and DAC walk all over a Naim 555. That was with DV'S and Obs not my present AN set up.
I'm not privy to your musical tastes but 'Ottis Taylor's White African is as good as Redbook CD sound quality gets IMO. You might want to check it out. On my player the sound is amazing and as good a listen as all bar my very best analogue....
Happy Xmas
Rob
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Oh the wonderful glow of those bottles! Looks great, Rob. I can only imagine how it sounds....Enjoy!
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Oh the wonderful glow of those bottles! Looks great, Rob. I can only imagine how it sounds....Enjoy!
Thanks Tim. It sounds off the charts good mate! Happy holidays....
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Well I've finally heard a turntable that is a significant improvement over my Versalex IMO. The Kronos Sparta. I think it's testament to the WT that it took a turntable costing 7 times the price here in the UK to show up the Versalex's comparative lack of weight/authority and detail resolution. Still not sure if I want to part with that sort of money for a new deck though!
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How to compare?same cartridge?same phono?same system?
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Well I've finally heard a turntable that is a significant improvement over my Versalex IMO. The Kronos Sparta. I think it's testament to the WT that it took a turntable costing 7 times the price here in the UK to show up the Versalex's comparative lack of weight/authority and detail resolution. Still not sure if I want to part with that sort of money for a new deck though!
Hi Rob,
It's been a long time since we've heard from you, I assume you're still enjoying the AN system?
First deck to significantly improve on the Versalex? I thought that accolade went to the Royale 400, the subject of this thread.
When I had it home it was far weightier and authoritative making my versalex sound somewhat soft by comparison. Thankfully for my bank balance I've sort have got over the loss of the 400 though John is bringing it back down is a couple of weeks, damn it!
ATB Simon.
Still the Kronos is so much smaller than the 400.
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I am enjoying my Audio Note system Simon. I've become friends with Peter Qvortrup which has been a bonus. I now use an Audio Note IO Gold cartridge and S9 SUT. The Gold is 22grms so better suits high mass arms. That along with my estrangement from my WT dealer and the weight and dimensions kind of puts me off the 400. It would be a much cheaper route and I have a buyer for my Versalex waiting. Build quality with the Versalex is quite poor and that hangs over things. Plinth poorly finished, my arm cup seal has failed twice plus and switch went. Very nice sounding deck for sure and better than a AN TT2/ LP12 to my ears. The guys at Opera just aren't able to do Mr F's designs justice IMO. BTW its my view that John Burns is the nicest and most genuine guy that I've dealt with in the industry. He was on point regarding the Auditorium mat killing the sound . Tried it for the first time in a while yesterday arghhh.....
You are so right regarding John for sure but I can't say I agree about the build of the Versalex though. Sure, it's not SME or Brinkman in its finish but as you well know, neither does it need to be; the deck would have cost a great deal more and in all likelihood not made a jot of difference to the performance thus maintaining the ratio of performance/cost.
I understand that the earlier samples had a drain plug which some eventually could leak but was redesigned without such curing the issue, was yours not replaced with the new?
To date I've sold a fair few and again no issues with the plinths either.
As for the cartridges weight, again due to the unique design of the Symetrix arm the compatibility issue that afflicts other designs is negated, the XV-1s is hardly a lightweight.
As it happens John was with me today to return the 400 for another demo and from the very first bar it absolutely blew me away and confirms my desire to add one to my system. All of the classic WT strengths retained but with immediacy and gravitas the Versalex ultimately lacks. The arm is of course the same as the Versalex albeit 5 inches longer but the overall build quality is undeniably up there but no more than necessary: definitely no bling.
I've never heard the Kronos and I assume you are referring to the dual platter version but does it really have that WT sense of flow that no other deck I've heard has?
Did you ever get to hear the 400?, if not I recommend you do Rob. I know it's big but on its own table ( I really do think the table adds to the overall performance, I tried it on my Quadraspire SVT Bamboo and that fell well short) it's not that much larger than a decent sized rack like my SVT. I suspect the ceramic balled feet similar to the deck's own have a fair bit to do with though too.
Anyway, good to hear from you again.
ATB
Simon
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Ooops Rob! PM me at work if you wish to pursue the comments on your last post, be happy to help.
ATB
Simon
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Not oops Simon. Deliberate. Spies everywhere! I will be in touch for sure.......
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Well I've finally heard a turntable that is a significant improvement over my Versalex IMO. The Kronos Sparta. I think it's testament to the WT that it took a turntable costing 7 times the price here in the UK to show up the Versalex's comparative lack of weight/authority and detail resolution. Still not sure if I want to part with that sort of money for a new deck though!
I can imagine there are a number of people here on this forum that would be very interested to heard which turntables you've demo'd that fell short of the Versalex.
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You are joking Simon! Haven't you noticed just how few people post on this circle? :-).
Started life with an Ariston then I owned an LP12 ending up with /ARO/Geddon (for many years). Miss it on maybe 20% of albums. When it thrilled it really did. But the Versalex is just so much more consistent with more natural timbre and increased space. Traditional Jazz and Classical much better now. Heard half a dozen other decks at peoples homes or shows but nothing really interested me until the Kronos. It was very analytical and I'd want to make sure that doesn't transcend to sterile but it certainly impressed me with it's clarity and detail resolution. Interesting design. I've been an Audiophile for 35 years but only owned three makes of turntable. It's not beyond the realms that will remain the case..........
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Joking? Not at all. From your post I took it to mean you had auditioned many decks but the Kronos was the first to improve on the Versalex. There seems to be more high end decks than ever, many highly acclaimed such as Clearaudio, Brinkmann, AMG etc. I was just wondering which you had rejected, as a fellow WTV owner, along the way?
I too had a Linn/Aro/Geddon for years, then changed to the Radikal and like you happy with the decision to go WT.
ATB
Simon
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It would be nice to have access to lots of high end gear for home dems before purchases Simon but the reality is that its logistically impossible as you will know. I've yet to meet a dealer who will recommend something they don't sell over something they do to direct to worthy alternatives and ultimately MY ears make the buying decisions as it were so I will have to narrow considerations down to just a few.
I have a buyer for my Versalex and it would seem like the obvious next component to look at with it being a £4k deck in a £150k at retail system. But my 21g AN IO Gold cartridge is currently singing sweetly in it so nothing spoiling until I can compare against a 400/ Kronos or whatever else seems worthy and accessible. If the 400 builds on the Versalex/Amadeus strengths whilst adding weight and authority it will be a hard act to follow IMO.
By the way I would liken the move to valves from transistors as the move from LP12 to WT. I play more albums/genres because of the less processed sound with just a small percentage not as thrilling as before........
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That is precisely what the 400 does. Bill has managed not to make an entirely different sounding deck but to build on his previous strengths. High mass decks usually differ considerably from the lighter options but the 400 builds on the sence of air and flow whilst adding considerable authority. John Bonham and JPJ have never sounded so 'heavy', as when I had the 400 home, not even with my Naim 500 system and a tricked up LP12. By comparison the Versalex sounds a tad soft and slow, I kid you not. A straight a+b and I'm gutted tbh. The perils of working with this stuff. Nothing I can do gets the Versalex anywhere near the 400 and I have tried. Removing feet, using Still Points, myrtle wood blocks, Sorbothene spheres and various bases, all change the sound to some degree but none add that bottom end the 400 does so effortlessly. Once heard never forgotten. Bugger.
I agree totally with your last point, my experience precisely.
ATB
Simon
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Really liking my WTA these days, but because a hobby is not a hobby unless it involves obsession,i asked Mike Pranka if we can expect a Royale 300 at some point in the future. "Not likely" was the unfortunate reply.
But i have made some changes that bring my system to a new level:
Cables.
I have used Morrow cables for several years and liked their speed and transparency. But they seemed a little light overall. So i moved up 3 levels for the phono cable (ph-7) and IC from phono to preamp (ma-7). I also snagged a barely used pair of speaker cables (elite grand reference) at a nice price, also Morrow.
After many hours on the cable cooker i can say this is a most worthy investment! Sound is fuller, percussive instruments better defined, better decay and speed remains intact. 3d imaging is spectacular and it was already darn good++.
I am also dumbfounded at the difference made by Cardas M power cables on Bel Canto preamp and Hagerman phono. Why should the last 1.5 meters of power delivery make such a difference? But it's there for the hearing.
I also bought 4 new 6.5" mega woofers for my Brian Cheney designed VMPS RM 30 speakers. I performed the series 2 upgrade a couple years ago and decided to do the specified woofer upgrade while i can still get the drivers.
They are in house and i am waiting for complete cable burn in before i start. I want to know my reference point.
I still go down the street and listen to the Transrotor turntable. That is a fine piece of kit. Our Well Tempereds have a low noise floor but this betters it. He's done some tweaking and cable changes and his all new VAC stack is burned in. The overall sound is much improved. Ive spent a number of hours in the sweet spot sipping 12and sometimes 18 year old scotch and it is a very pleasant experience.
I prefer the electricity my system generates. No doubt he prefers his. And that is fine. Two completely different approaches to music reproduction that sound completely different. And both are wonderfully entertaining!