AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Cheap and Cheerful HiFi => Topic started by: neekomax on 14 Jan 2018, 08:56 pm
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If this belongs in a different circle, break out the forklift and move it where it goes, of course. (Didn't there used to be a bass circle, btw?)
I use three subs in my modest system, along with a DSPeaker Dual Core unit, to try and get smooth bass in my room, per Toole, Geddes, LeJeune etc. I'm always tweaking crossovers, placements, gain levels, DSP on, DSP off, etc. etc. forever and ever. At least I'm not spending cash endlessly, although the endless fussing is kind of the same thing, only cheaper. :lol:
I wonder if there is a way of re-creating the sub swarm concept for cheap. http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/ (http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/). Like unloading all my present subs and the DSpeaker, and building passive subs, or buying good-enough off the shelf subs, and then using a Behringher DCX2496 or Mini DSP or something to control all the subs as a system. Right I'm just sort of guessing at levels and placement, and the Dual Core is more optimized in general for a .1 or dual mono system.
How could it be configured? How inexpensive could it be and still improve on the standard single or dual (or no) sub setup in a music system?
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You have three subs now, the swarm uses four I believe, why not just buy one more sub? (The last specs for Duke's swarm I saw were for four subs)
The bass circle was melded into Enclosures some time ago.
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Seems like you've already re-created the swarm concept for cheap by using three subs instead of four.
Are all three of your subs identical?
I also use three subs (2 are identical) and it sounds fantastic. I attempted a 4th sub that I borrowed from my second system and it didn't work out very well. I believe it was due to the differences in sound quality of the subs. That 4th sub is low-fi and it could only contribute some muddy bass.
Of course, I'm no expert on swarms, but I would imagine that you should start with a single high quality sub and build from there by adding three more identical subs as your budget permits. I'm sure it's more complicated than that, but the point is to start with good quality. IMO, the majority of commercially available subs suck at being subs. You gotta spend around $700 for a decent sub, and if you look at it that way, then the Audiokinesis swarm system is a bargain.
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Duke's a really smart fellow and his Swarm is a bit more than dropping 4 subs with a mono amp into a room. It was carefully designed to perform the way it does, using a room's gain. That said, there are certainly ways to take advantage of multiple subs as many here have done successfully.
FWIW, I have 3 DIY raw MDF Geddes subs and a DCX2496 just sitting in storage that would be a bargain for someone if not for shipping 8)
When multiple subs are set up properly, you really shouldn't be able to "hear" them. The upper bass/lower midrange will free up and there will be more subtle foundation to the music. If you're hearing stuff in the 50-200hz range it's likely the unevenness of room modes, which multi-subs can help mitigate. The first sub is usually furthest away and plays at the highest level, so you want to get that one optimized on its own first. The other 2-4 are usually closer to the listener's position and are set much lower in level. I could barely hear mine with my ear close to them, but turn one off and you'd definitely know it.
I mixed in Rythmik/GR subs, both sealed and OB in at times, as well as a couple ACI Titans, and it didn't really didn't change matters much. The 3 Geddes bandpass subs worked very well by themselves. I've heard another AC member's setup with 3 sealed Rythmiks/DCX2496 several times and it was also very good. Mixing different subs just makes it more complex and harder to learn the effects of their individual placement, settings, tuning, etc. I could see where it could actually make it sound worse. Even with 3 identical very high quality ones, it did take MANY hours with REQ Wizard to the point of exhaustion to get it right. Very much worth it though.
If I were to do anything differently I might add a VERY different sub, like one ULF monster only to do the deepest bass, which is something Dr. Geddes mentioned a few times.
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Interesting, lots to respond to.
But I'm just curious. What exactly is the design of the Geddes sub? A cursory googling yielded little.
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Interesting, lots to respond to.
But I'm just curious. What exactly is the design of the Geddes sub? A cursory googling yielded little.
That's because it's proprietary ;-)
It is a unique bandpass design where the driver is inside the cabinet with either multiple small ports or, in my case, a large passive radiator on the outside. The driver is a B&C 12TBX100 which is incredibly robust.
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That's because it's proprietary ;-)
It is a unique bandpass design where the driver is inside the cabinet with either multiple small ports or, in my case, a large passive radiator on the outside. The driver is a B&C 12TBX100 which is incredibly robust.
Hmmm. I guess I don't understand how a bandpass sub works. Is this the driver you mean? With a vented F3 of 83 Hz? https://www.parts-express.com/bc-12tbx100-12-high-power-woofer-8-ohm--294-569 (https://www.parts-express.com/bc-12tbx100-12-high-power-woofer-8-ohm--294-569)
That doesn't seem like a proper sub woofer. What am I missing? :scratch:
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Hmmm. I guess I don't understand how a bandpass sub works. Is this the driver you mean? With a vented F3 of 83 Hz? https://www.parts-express.com/bc-12tbx100-12-high-power-woofer-8-ohm--294-569 (https://www.parts-express.com/bc-12tbx100-12-high-power-woofer-8-ohm--294-569)
That doesn't seem like a proper sub woofer. What am I missing? :scratch:
Nico (my brother-in-law's French and that's what we call him as well),
You can't use cookie cutter formulas and the Parts Express suggestion is only a suggestion (It's actually a suggestion for vented enclosure, not bandpass design). Probably a small port that is tuned high. Hence the F3 is high. The 12TBX100 is an exceptional driver but it really shines in the mid bass.
A 4th order bandpass subwoofer design basically has its own acoustic filter built into the design. The Geddes version is an application of that, and it rolls off at 24dB/octave (4th order) over 100 Hz. It rolls off about 12dB/octave below 50 Hz or so. The overall useable bandwidth is around 45Hz to 150 Hz in room (At least I know that to be a fact in my system as I have measured it numerous times.). The advantage here is the astonishingly high efficiency. It's about 95dB/watt/meter over that useable bandwidth. That's a very, very, big deal. Dynamics and detail galore, all with a 60watt/channel amplifier, and very little thermal compression to speak of especially at higher spls :wink:.
Years ago, I built a pair of Geddes' bandpass passive radiator design and still use them today. I should've built three but I built only two. Multiples of them (like any sub) will help in minimizing the peaks and valleys we all see in small rooms' low frequency response as you already know. Then add a big honkin' ULF subwoofer for the area below 50Hz and voila, you have nirvana.
Here is a pic of my subs. The outer driver (shown) is the passive radiator. The inner driver (not visible) is the B&C 12TBX100:
(http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u422/nycavsr2000/Poseidons%20Voice%20Tsunami/IMG_4253_zpsmsfvr4s2.jpg) (http://s1067.photobucket.com/user/nycavsr2000/media/Poseidons%20Voice%20Tsunami/IMG_4253_zpsmsfvr4s2.jpg.html)
My third sub is a Funk Audio 21.0LX which has a 4th order crossover set at 55Hz.
My response is +/- 3dB without any smoothing from 15Hz to 400Hz overall. I use a Behringer DCX 2496 as well. Interestingly enough, due to proper placement of my Geddes subs, I have NO EQ on them at all. And no electronic crossover point as well. They just blend right into the mains in the high end, and blend right into the Funk sub on the low end. My only EQ is on the Funk sub which can easily handle it and is needed in the lowest modal area (1st mode) around 20-30Hz.
As if that wasn't enough, I'm currently building a dual opposed sealed design as my 4th sub consisting of a pair of B&C 15BG100's :thumb:.
My best piece of advice is to get used to measuring with REW before you embark/invest in multiple subs. And if you are going in that direction, why not invest in a Minidsp or DCX2496 first (get them used), and use your existing subs and optimize them as well as you can while mastering your measurement skills with REW if that is an issue. Like Tom said, even with multiple subs (of very high quality), I spent several long nights, before getting to where I am today.
Best,
Anand.
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Bandpass means it has a natural acoustic cutoff on both the low end and high end. It makes for a smoother response in the portion between those 2 points (the pass band), and exhibits very low distortion. In this design/application it is very much a proper driver as part of a great performing bass system.
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Interesting, lots to respond to.
But I'm just curious. What exactly is the design of the Geddes sub? A cursory googling yielded little.
I came across this summary and links to Geddes papers recently. It's a nice explanation.
http://seriousaudioblog.blogspot.com/2012/05/two-great-articles-on-multiple.html
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I have a swarm of subwoofers as well. AIUI, no need for identical subs if you follow Geddes, which works well in my situation.
But it is a LOT of measuring with REW and finding proper relative levels, phase, and high and low cutoff frequencies. I think it was something like 2 years of fiddling on weekends to get things to measure well and sound great. I don't think one has heard good bass until one has heard multiple subwoofers properly configured with minimum EQ. With this set up I can never really hear an individual sub.
The link I posted above explains why there's so much fiddling. There is a program called MSO (http://andyc.diy-audio-engineering.org/mso/html/) that can help but I don't think it uses Geddes method.
One example of something I had to tweak. With my 4 subs, when I folded in the 3rd one it "conflicted" with my main LFE sub and caused poor frequency response. Was a hell of a thing. Finally, I set the hi/lo frequencies of the 3rd subwoofer (I think, effectively, turning it into a bandpass sub?), and boom! flat response from 40-100Hz. That took 3-4 hours all by itself.
Here's the before and after, no smoothing. The green trace is with a high pass filter @ 50Hz on my third sub. The gold trace is what the response was before I did the high pass. The peak @ approx. 30Hz is my main room mode. I later used PEQ to bring that down.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=174565)
@poseidonsvoice I love that subwoofer you made. How big is it? Can you make me a couple? ;-)
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Very nice example artur9.
If you think the Tsunamis (my Geddes BP PR) look nice then you should hear them! They sound way nicer than they look! They are about a 17 inch cube as the front facing driver (the passive radiator) is 15 inches in diameter. I am hoping the Tsunami 2 (the dual opposed sealed design) will compare well to them. We’ll see soon enough I hope.
Nico, I apologize, much of what I posted isn’t cheap nor cheerful unless it counts cause it is diy.
Best,
Anand.
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Oops I totally missed the cheap and cheerful part, sorry guys :oops:
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I've been reading glowing reports on this Dayton Audio driver for subs. Does anyone have experience with it? 18" with an Fs of 18 Hz and an efficiency of 93 dB, $245-$260.
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-rss460ho-4-18-reference-ho-subwoofer-4-ohm--295-472
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I've been reading glowing reports on this Dayton Audio driver for subs. Does anyone have experience with it? 18" with an Fs of 18 Hz and an efficiency of 93 dB, $245-$260.
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-rss460ho-4-18-reference-ho-subwoofer-4-ohm--295-472
It’s a very good driver for the money along with it’s sister, the UM 18-22. They differ in that the UM18 has a bit deeper extension at the expense of a small difference in efficiency (see the measurements below, not just what Dayton advertises as a “spec.”)
The best place to read about these drivers is Josh Ricci’s Data-Bass site (my personal reference). He runs them through brutal testing (which they ALL should go through).
Here are the links. First read the system overview, then go to the next page called measurements.
RSS460HO: http://data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=89
UM18-22: http://data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=116
For what it’s worth Josh measures some of the finest drivers and sub systems in the world and that includes some of the popular Rythmik models.
Regarding multi-bass, I have my own opinions on the strategies that work, pm me if you want to discuss.
Best,
Anand.
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Was intending on getting a swarm, based on Gedde, LeJeune, and Toole readings but got sidetracked. A friend needed to sell a nice DIY sub that uses a 10 inch XBR driver from CSS. With my DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core it makes a very nice addition to my near-field system, to the point that spending more to possibly muck up the sound doesn't interest me.
Auditioned the sub at my friends before buying it and it was much more powerful at his place (his 'great' room being perhaps 50% larger than my Cardas Golden Cuboid listening room. Note that the DSPeaker is probably filtering down the sub to get it to blend with my mains. So wonder if you're losing sub output for the same reason.
So why are you unsatisfied? As I understand the theory a swarm attempts to provide uniform bass response across the room, is that your goal? The more subs the better to achieve uniformity, but three should provide a good start. Seems like you may simply be lost in confusion.
Your up against the laws of physics, with bass there is no (cheap) shortcuts. I asked recently on AC for suggestions of an inexpensive/quality sub with low F3 for my seldom used AV system and fortunately a nearby ACer sold his oldie but goodie ARS500 that more than fills the bill. So adding another sub of decent quality, good output, and fairly low F3 would no doubt be well beyond C&C guidelines unless you too can stumble across a used deal.
Seems to me your issue is one of defining your wants and learning how to set up the swarm.
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neekomax,
You might need to assign a preliminary budget price range to your swarm plans in order to get better recommendations. Based on your question: "How inexpensive could it be and still improve on the standard single or dual (or no) sub setup in a music system?":
I tried a true "cheap & cheerful (3) multi-sub arrangement" at one time. Results are here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=136983.0
The bucket sub is a good cheap & cheerful option that I strongly considered, but never tried:
http://thehornshoppeforum.com/index.php?topic=406.0
AC's Poultrygeist built a pair of bucket subs: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=138469.msg1474191#msg1474191
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Your up against the laws of physics, with bass there is no (cheap) shortcuts.
Yep. Forget about doing it cheaply. You can't use multiple cheap & cheerful subs in order to get superior bass sound.
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Great responses everyone. I have to rush off to work now, but hopefully I'll get some time to re-read everything and give it all some consideration.
What's great is the thread from 2015 by Brother Love is exactly the kind of thing I was bringing up, only I was thinking that more attention might be paid to signal processing as a group, with a DCX2496 or something similar. But it seems like he managed improvement in bass smoothness essentially just with placement and gain/x-over settings on each sub. Also, it seems like his experiment relied on too-cheap subwoofers. That's exactly the kind of thing I'm hoping to parse.
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The killer (IMO) for this being cheap and cheerful is to find a good subwoofer management device (e.g. the Behringer or miniDSP) that fits in the budget.
I got an old Xilica that works great (3 in, 6 out) with good flexibility after having no end of trouble with a miniDSP 2x4. But even used the Xilica isn't all that cheap.
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DCX2496 is only ~$200
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Harmon International sells a lot of refurbs on Ebay. You might want to watch for those,
https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_odkw=&epid=1886888389&_ssn=harmanaudio&hash=item236053af26%3Am%3AmTkz5NN7tgG9b-Zjg8h0qtw&item=151939952422&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2046732.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.Xsubwoofer.TRS0&_nkw=subwoofer&_sacat=0
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After reading all of these excellent responses, I'd say that it comes down to this: I believe I understand the various operative aspects of getting smooth bass in a smallish room, but I remain a bit daunted by the whole measurement process that seems key to achieving said end.
Everyone recommends REW, but what are the steps, salient points, and potential sticking points involved in a measurement scenario involving 3/4 subs, plus mains, that need to be be observed? Surely the collective wisdom and experience of a forum like this has certain guidelines that could clarify this process and make it make it much more approachable that it seems currently.
For example: I hear little discussion of delay. AVR software seems to be set up to compensate for the different distance between 1 sub and the mains and the LP, but how can this be achieved with a multi-sub array in which the distances all vary with respect to the mains and the listener? Seems to lil ol me that this should be critical. Is it not?
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After reading all of these excellent responses, I'd say that it comes down to this: I believe I understand the various operative aspects of getting smooth bass in a smallish room, but I remain a bit daunted by the whole measurement process that seems key to achieving said end.
Everyone recommends REW, but what are the steps, salient points, and potential sticking points involved in a measurement scenario involving 3/4 subs, plus mains, that need to be be observed? Surely the collective wisdom and experience of a forum like this has certain guidelines that could clarify this process and make it make it much more approachable that it seems currently.
For example: I hear little discussion of delay. AVR software seems to be set up to compensate for the different distance between 1 sub and the mains and the LP, but how can this be achieved with a multi-sub array in which the distances all vary with respect to the mains and the listener? Seems to lil ol me that this should be critical. Is it not?
Nico,
Digital delay is just another method or another way of saying phase alignment so yes it does matter. It’s assumed you are doing that and using those methods to reach your goal of flat bass response. Have you read Paul Spencer’s guide on Hifizine.com for proper bass integration of multiple subs? I highly recommend it, Parts 1-3. Read and reread it until you understand it. It will save you loads of headache.
http://www.hifizine.com/2011/06/bass-integration-guide-part-1/
http://www.hifizine.com/2011/09/bass-integration-guide-part-2/
http://www.hifizine.com/2012/06/bass-integration-guide-part-3/
Best,
Anand.
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Nico,
Digital delay is just another method or another way of saying phase alignment so yes it does matter. It’s assumed you are doing that and using those methods to reach your goal of flat bass response. Have you read Paul Spencer’s guide on Hifizine.com for proper bass integration of multiple subs? I highly recommend it, Parts 1-3. Read and reread it until you understand it. It will save you loads of headache.
http://www.hifizine.com/2011/06/bass-integration-guide-part-1/
http://www.hifizine.com/2011/09/bass-integration-guide-part-2/
http://www.hifizine.com/2012/06/bass-integration-guide-part-3/
Best,
Anand.
Anand: Many thanks, that looks like the goods.
:)
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...I remain a bit daunted by the whole measurement process that seems key to achieving said end.
Measurements don't guarantee good sound. Ultimately, you gotta rely on your ears. There's room limitations, spousal acceptance, and sheer practicality to consider. For instance, I can only add a 4th sub in one location in my room, and it's probably not optimal. And my third sub isn't optimally placed, but I have no choice. Measurements can't fix poor placement.
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Measurements don't guarantee good sound. Ultimately, you gotta rely on your ears. There's room limitations, spousal acceptance, and sheer practicality to consider. For instance, I can only add a 4th sub in one location in my room, and it's probably not optimal. And my third sub isn't optimally placed, but I have no choice. Measurements can't fix poor placement.
Not saying I know, but I find the tension here interesting.
This from the multi-part article that Anand just recommended, right at the top:
"Why you can’t trust your ears
A common view among audiophiles is that you can get accurate bass by tuning by ear, without using measurements. Once the nature of room-related acoustic problems are understood, the limitations of this approach become clear. While our ears are the final judge of sound quality, they are highly ineffective when it comes to the kind of specific data that is required to achieve our outcome. Our ears may tell us that there are bass problems, but we then need to use measurements to find and solve those problems. Once that is done, you can then evaluate the result subjectively."
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So I guess I'm asking: What is the most succinct and efficient workflow for placing, measuring, and evaluating a multi-sub array, in terms of mininum necessary gear?
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Nico,
1. Buy this: http://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umik.html
2. Buy a boom mic stand from anywhere. This is so you can place the mic quickly and easily in any position you want.
3. Buy if needed (most likely as the USB cable with the UMIK microphone is short), a USB extender cable to go from the UMIK-1 minidsp microphone to your computer. These are available for cheap on Amazon. Alternatively you can just buy a longer USB cable with compatible ends to replace the cable that comes with the UMIK-1. You will also need a USB cable to connect from your laptop to your DACs USB input. Alternatively and less preferably you can connect your laptop to a preamp using the headphone output using a 1/8 inch mini headphone to dual (L/R) shielded RCA cables. A third option if you use an AVR or AVP is to connect your laptops HDMI output to your AVR/AVP HDMI input using an HDMI cable.
4. Download the latest version of REW from avnirvana.com.
5. Read and apply this: https://www.minidsp.com/applications/acoustic-measurements/umik-1-setup-with-rew
6. Read (and re-read several times) this: https://www.avnirvana.com/resources/getting-started-with-rew-a-step-by-step-guide.19/
7. Read Paul Spencer’s Bass Integration guide (http://www.hifizine.com/2011/06/bass-integration-guide-part-1/).
8. Read and understand this: https://www.minidsp.com/applications/home-theater-tuning/tuning-multiple-subs
9. Post your measurements on the Acoustics circle for help or AV Nirvana.
Best,
Anand.
P.S. The monetary investment sans laptop of the above is less than $200.
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Your whole concept: "budget subwoofer 'swarm'" in the context of audiophilia is an oxymoron IMO. While I appreciate the swarm concept for fighting in-room standing waves, I'd rather have one good sub well dialed in than a swarm of one note mushy boom boxes.
BTW had a Behringer DEQ2496 (notorious for being unreliable right from the factory) and it was a nightmare to learn even the elementary functions. Note I had the DAC output modded and used it for years as just a DAC. This was years before Gedde/LeJeune published swarm theory.
Still haven't read what your compliant(s) is(are) with your current setup. Until you define the problem, you'll only be chasing your tail. Even if you come up with the technically perfect solution will you be emotionally satisfied? Is this a mental exercise or one for musical enjoyment? I know my accepted concepts cloud what I hear.
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In addition to poseidonvoice's excellent recommendations & references, I found Dr. Earl Geddes approach to multi-subs set-up being most helpful in my experiments: https://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/
FWIW, I had an excellent single GR Research 12" servo sub with Rhythmik Audio amp at one time in my system. Going with the multi-sub approach utilizing cheaper subs did not appear to degrade the sound, but instead blended in better as evidenced by the REW graphs generated during my experiments referenced prior (note: after lots of volume/ frequency/ phase adjustments w/ probably 15 different sub placements).
All of this is about dealing with your room & the sound waves bouncing all over creation. You have null & peaks that suck out certain frequencies or over-emphasize others. You can have the greatest, most expensive sub in the world, but if much of those lower frequencies are -20 or -30 dB from others (or +20 or +30 dB) then you are not getting your moneys worth.
The measurement graphs don't lie: no placebo effect, no thinking you hear this or that, no memory to contend with ... just good info on what the hell is really happening in your room (not projected or perceived) when you play music. What your ears prefer is a whole 'nother matter.
Ultimately, I decided the net improvements with a multi-sub arrangement were not worth the price of the complications, hassle, looks, etc.. But the measurements with a 3 multi-sub set-up were greatly improved vs. no sub, 1 sub or 2 subs. YMMV
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Regarding audiophilia and one sub vs a swarm.
If the concern is only one listening position then one sub correctly integrated with the mains and located in the room should be sufficient.
Even though I am the predominant listener in my room I much prefer the evenness of coverage that a swarm offers. Once I got the swarm set up and dialed in the precision of the bass throughout the room is a pleasure.
In my room, I can hear the plucking of a bass and the attack of a drum very precisely. No mushiness here!
But it was a hassle to get there.
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Hey guys, how about a setup using 3 or 4 of these cheap (but well-reviewed) monoprice 9723 subs?:
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=9723&AID=11051853&PID=5431261&ref=cj&utm_source=cj&utm_medium=11051853&utm_term=Skimlinks-3449840
http://www.avsforum.com/the-best-budget-subwoofer/
Only $100+ shipping each.
-Jim
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Hey guys, how about a setup using 3 or 4 of these cheap (but well-reviewed) monoprice 9723 subs?:
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=9723&AID=11051853&PID=5431261&ref=cj&utm_source=cj&utm_medium=11051853&utm_term=Skimlinks-3449840
http://www.avsforum.com/the-best-budget-subwoofer/
Only $100+ shipping each.
-Jim
Jim,
Very impressive. I particularly like Brent's blinded subjective review on AVS.
Best,
Anand.
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Hey guys, how about a setup using 3 or 4 of these cheap (but well-reviewed) monoprice 9723 subs?:
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=9723&AID=11051853&PID=5431261&ref=cj&utm_source=cj&utm_medium=11051853&utm_term=Skimlinks-3449840
http://www.avsforum.com/the-best-budget-subwoofer/
Only $100+ shipping each.
-Jim
Unfortunately response down to ~50 Hz is NOT a subwoofer. You'd be missing a whole octave. Heck lots of monitors go lower.
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Unfortunately response down to ~50 Hz is NOT a subwoofer. You'd be missing a whole octave. Heck lots of monitors go lower.
JLM,
Look at the CEA-2010 measurement that Brent Butterworth published on this $100 product. It is very impressive for the money. If you use them in multiples you will get even better results.
I know of NO monitor speaker at $100 that will pump out 90dB at 20Hz at 1m. That means it certainly has some excursion capability.
Please just don’t judge by the manufacturers specs (Brent has done a real world measurement, that is terribly important to note). Remember the room can dramatically change the response depending on position.
The best thing to do is to buy one of these and get them brutally measured by Josh Ricci of Databass.
Best,
Anand.
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The CEA-2010 measurement is not a traditional frequency response curve. From a very casual skim of the explanation it appears to be the maximum output at various 'subwoofer' frequencies before specified distortion levels are observed.
If I am interpreting things correctly, if you listen at 100 dB the Monoprice subwoofer will go down to between 20 and 25 Hz.
http://www.brentbutterworth.com/cea-2010-measurement-manual.html
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The CEA-2010 measurement is not a traditional frequency response curve. From a very casual skim of the explanation it appears to be the maximum output at various 'subwoofer' frequencies before specified distortion levels are observed.
If I am interpreting things correctly, if you listen at 100 dB the Monoprice subwoofer will go down to between 20 and 25 Hz.
http://www.brentbutterworth.com/cea-2010-measurement-manual.html
Yes, it’s not a FR measurement. We know that the FR dramatically changes when you place a sub in a room. Any sub. That’s why frequency extension specs from sub manufacturers don’t necessarily tell you the whole story. Which is why EQ is so useful in those lower frequencies.
What the CEA 2010 measurement shows is the SPL potential. And from that standpoint, this sub alone may not reach THX HT standards, but in multiples, it is getting close. At $100/sub though that is actually quite good.
Best,
Anand.
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Yeah, very interesting sub and review. But it must be noted that it's not REALLY $100. Probably more like $125 - $150, depending on shipping. But if it's that good, that seems like a good candidate for a budget swarm.
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Yeah, very interesting sub and review. But it must be noted that it's not REALLY $100. Probably more like $125 - $150, depending on shipping. But if it's that good, that seems like a good candidate for a budget swarm.
True that.
(4) subs + shipping is $518.64 to my door, which makes it ~$129 per sub shipped.
Best,
Anand.
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True that.
(4) subs + shipping is $518.64 to my door, which makes it ~$129 per sub shipped.
Best,
Anand.
You've got four on order? That was quick. :)
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I'm in NY... shipping for one Monoprice 12" sub is $44 and change. Not negligible.
Other thing I noticed: No phase switch at all? Is that potentially a problem for a swarm application?
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I'm in NY... shipping for one Monoprice 12" sub is $44 and change. Not negligible.
Interestingly, entering a NY zipcode shows the $44 "Standard 3-5 Business Days" shipping as the lowest cost method, but when I enter my AZ zipcode, I not only get the "Standard 3-5 business days" shipping rate of $37, but additionally a "Monoprice 1-2 Business Days" option of just $17.
Apparently customers in California, Nevada, Arizona and New Mexico can take advantage of Monoprice's GSO (Golden State Overnight) shipping rates.
Other thing I noticed: No phase switch at all? Is that potentially a problem for a swarm application?
I would think not only might a phase switch be useful, but a variable phase control (instead of a 0° - 180° switch) would be even better.
Steve
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You've got four on order? That was quick. :)
No. I just did a sample test. I've got enough projects lined up, don't need another one!
Best,
Anand.
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I would think not only might a phase switch be useful, but a variable phase control (instead of a 0° - 180° switch) would be even better.
Steve
:lol: Pretty soon you guys are going to be asking for all the fancy controls on a Rythmik plate amp! We should rename this circle as "Cheap and Stingy"!
Seriously though, using a Minidsp 2X4(or Minidsp 2X4HD) + 2,3, or 4 of these subs would be a possible way around the problem. Gotta watch the budget though.
Best,
Anand.