AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: oldmp3 on 11 Jun 2010, 09:22 pm
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Some pictures from the Salk room at the Capital AudioFest in Rockville, MD. I met Jim and Mary for the first time, and heard the new SoundScapes, an early prototype of which I heard at Dennis Murphy's home. They sound even better than they look (the speakers that is... :D)
SoundScapes, SongTowers, and AVA components
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=31462)
SoundScape and SongTower
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=31463)
SoundScape in a beautiful hand-rubbed finish, some reflections, the actual finish is flawless
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=31464)
Mary and Jim Salk
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=31465)
The Salk room with high ceilings, Jim at the controls
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=31467)
Capital Audiofest venue: Glenview Mansion, Rockville, MD
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=31468)
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Ha haaaa...the Salks look GREAT in a mansion! :D
Now, how do they sound in that barren room? Hopefully those panels intercept a few of the reflections zinging around.
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Ha haaaa...the Salks look GREAT in a mansion! :D
Now, how do they sound in that barren room? Hopefully those panels intercept a few of the reflections zinging around.
They sure do look great. I plan to go there tomorrow
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The sound in that enormous room was somewhat disappointing. The floors were marble, and all the walls and ceiling were plaster. It was very lively.
Jim found a large area rug which helped some, but there was still quite a lot of echo.
Every room in that place was quite different, so you never new what you were going to hear.
Nice pictures oldmp3, I'll post some more I took as soon as remember how to log on to Photoshop Online, but not tonight.
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Here are a few more photos:
The reflective gloss finish:
(http://api.photoshop.com/home_7e53687d13c747d28ccec9a6980c7256/adobe-px-assets/ca2914248260448b9c17efcd486031b2)
(http://api.photoshop.com/home_7e53687d13c747d28ccec9a6980c7256/adobe-px-assets/b10f948c527548a6bebeb60ad31b525f)
Some AVA amplifiers, the FET valve Ultra+ 550 double die above, and Ultravalve below:
(http://api.photoshop.com/home_7e53687d13c747d28ccec9a6980c7256/adobe-px-assets/2fc30b02d3ac454e8d123c47693876d0)
(http://api.photoshop.com/home_7e53687d13c747d28ccec9a6980c7256/adobe-px-assets/9b2e310882f94fb583fe79de0f1feefe)
Some other speakers of interest, NOLA:
http://www.photoshop.com/accounts/7e53687d13c747d28ccec9a6980c7256/px-assets/15551f62e14541128b4bfec46aeadfcc (http://www.photoshop.com/accounts/7e53687d13c747d28ccec9a6980c7256/px-assets/15551f62e14541128b4bfec46aeadfcc)
MBL
http://www.photoshop.com/accounts/7e53687d13c747d28ccec9a6980c7256/px-assets/c992cfcc49f94846a37474ae10c822b5 (http://www.photoshop.com/accounts/7e53687d13c747d28ccec9a6980c7256/px-assets/c992cfcc49f94846a37474ae10c822b5)
And one of visual (only) interest:
http://www.photoshop.com/accounts/7e53687d13c747d28ccec9a6980c7256/px-assets/035deb88387e446189f7ccc2baad543c (http://www.photoshop.com/accounts/7e53687d13c747d28ccec9a6980c7256/px-assets/035deb88387e446189f7ccc2baad543c)
YG Acoustics sounded nice (Scan-Speak woofer was good, but not the ring radiator tweeter)
http://www.photoshop.com/accounts/7e53687d13c747d28ccec9a6980c7256/px-assets/0949446438df4c98acd9fea1cba121b9 (http://www.photoshop.com/accounts/7e53687d13c747d28ccec9a6980c7256/px-assets/0949446438df4c98acd9fea1cba121b9)
Of interest were the Joseph Audio speakers (note all the SEAS drivers):
http://www.photoshop.com/accounts/7e53687d13c747d28ccec9a6980c7256/px-assets/ec4eaa7849e245fabd7389bfb0c55ead (http://www.photoshop.com/accounts/7e53687d13c747d28ccec9a6980c7256/px-assets/ec4eaa7849e245fabd7389bfb0c55ead)
http://www.photoshop.com/accounts/7e53687d13c747d28ccec9a6980c7256/px-assets/bf21ecb5a7ba4316aadd83931f755414 (http://www.photoshop.com/accounts/7e53687d13c747d28ccec9a6980c7256/px-assets/bf21ecb5a7ba4316aadd83931f755414)
http://www.photoshop.com/accounts/7e53687d13c747d28ccec9a6980c7256/px-assets/9c6cda5ef0594564b3ce21e53b0bd4fa (http://www.photoshop.com/accounts/7e53687d13c747d28ccec9a6980c7256/px-assets/9c6cda5ef0594564b3ce21e53b0bd4fa)
They sounded good, but the small 2-way was $7,000 :o :o,
the larger 3-way was $28,000 :o :o :o,
and even the more modest MTM was $4,500 :o
It just goes to show the great value of Salk speakers
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Look like Jim's personal pair of ST's from his living room.
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The venue looks really nice but acoustically it doesn't seem to me to be very good.
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The venue looks really nice but acoustically it doesn't seem to me to be very good.
It's a shame isn't it that beauty and performance do not often go hand in hand.
And at least WE know the SS's look and sound great.
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That is the back of my head in the one picture! :)
Jim and Mary have a nice setup. The room treatments were helping!
I came back a few times to listen to the Soundscapes. Heard the prototypes at Dennis' GTG awhile back. I would rank them as one of the best sounding setups I heard.
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I just got back from the show and had the pleasure of meeting Jim and Mary for the first time and seeing Dennis again after I auditioned the prototype HT1-TLs at his place last year. He didn't know that I had bought them a week or so after hearing them at his house. And yes, I still love them! :thumb:
This was the first audio show that I've been to, and the variability and challenges of room acoustics are horrific. :o Jim told me that they priced out the installation of some drapes around the rear wall, but that was simply too expensive. The large green rug was a $100 acquisition with the help of the show organizer. Even after the treatments the room's high ceilings and plaster walls gave it a somewhat cavernous sound. The fantastic depth and width of the soundstage produced by the SongTowers and the SoundScapes was very evident and impressive: nothing that I heard at the show was comparable.
Jim was playing the SongTowers with an AVA Ultravalve amplifier, and during one of my visits to the room a fellow asked to confirm his assumption that it was the SoundScapes that were playing. He was somewhat surprised to know that it was the SongTowers. They were producing very good bass in the large room: I've seen a number of questions here about whether the SongTowers would suit a large room, and at the show that did not seem to be an issue at all.
The volume was also plenty loud. The AvaStar preamp was at 9 o'clock almost all of the time and 10 o'clock was definitely louder than I would want it for an extended period. The rest of the setup included a music server streaming by WiFi to a SqueezBox that was connected by Coax to the AVA Vision DAC. Jim was running this by iPhone Remote (or another iPhone app?). The Vision DAC also had a CD player connected to its second coax input. I think it was a Denon--likely a solid transport mechanism that served the need well. Everything was plugged into a power strip of the Radio Shack variety.
One thing I noticed was that the volume control on the AvaStar remote was a bit zippy: it tended to ramp up and down quickly and took a practiced touch to increment with any precision. I'm thinking of getting an AvaStar, so I'll have to ask AVA if they can make a remote with a lower velocity on the adjustment.
The sound with the UltraValve and the Songtowers was excellent. The room was definitely a limiting factor (as it was throughout the old mansion), but it was still evident that there was musical reproduction happening to a very high standard. Jim let me play a CD I had brought of Oscar Peterson's "We Get Requests". It sounded terrific, and Jim wanted a link to it:
http://www.firstimpressionmusic.com/product_p/limk2hd032.htm
They have a number of really nicely remastered and pressed discs. Pricey, but they seem to put a lot of care into improved mastering and pressing. I've liked everything I've purchased from them. Jazz At The Pawn Shop is another excellent disc of theirs.
I heard some pretty disappointing sound in a number of the rooms at the show, and the ones that had good things going on (the Fibonacci room was pleasant) were not as balanced and complete as the sound in the Salk room in my view: they all had fairly evident flaws.
One noteworthy flawed but interesting room was home to a couple of Dr. Seuss horn speakers that swooped down at me from left and right. They were playing Ella and Louis, Again, and the midrange clarity and detail was wonderful and lifelike: except for a very pronounced, hissing sibilance. Dennis commented on the same thing, but the fellow in the room when I was there who had a Motorola Bluetooth mobile phone headset embedded in his left ear didn't seem to hear anything wrong. :scratch:
Jim and Dennis were playing the SoundScapes with the AVA FetValve Double Ultra+ 550. The speaker efficiency went down and the amplifier power went up leaving the volume knob at about 9 o'clock still. As happy as a person would be with the Songtowers, she would be happier still with the SoundScapes. As I said above, however, the room was a major factor in limiting a full and fair comparison.
I hope that the show is held again next year, but perhaps at a venue that better lends itself to the exhibitors being able to treat the rooms adequately. It would also be nice if a couple of the more aggressive exhibitors weren't there, but the majority were friendly and professional.
Also, I missed the opportunity to purchase some magic power cables this time at a show discount. The cables had engineered both the words "mega" and "power" into their name and the cable manufacturer was disappointed to hear that I liked the Salk room best because he hadn't been able to loan any cables to them since the AVA equipment was magic-proofed. (Frankly, I've heard some differences between power cables, but I haven't yet heard $500 worth of difference and I've been happy with my $12 Volex for a while now).
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I was at Capital Audiofest; and I liked the Song Tower speakers.
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Yes, they were beautiful to see in person too
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Well, we just broke camp and Jim and Mary rode off into the sunset (literally). That "room" worked out better than I expected. Once we learned what kind of program material would work, I think we got some really impressive sounds out of the SoundScapes. There were literally oohs and aaahs, and I think Jim lined up enough SongTower sales to make the trip a freebie for them. And special hats off to Frank for his Ultravalve 70. 35 pc tube watts filled that cavern with sound. And also thanks to Jim and Mary for the lobster dinner, even if that's not quite what we ordered. When a waiter smiles a lot and doesn't say anything, maybe he doesn't speak English. Great lobster, though.
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Well, we just broke camp and Jim and Mary rode off into the sunset (literally). That "room" worked out better than I expected. Once we learned what kind of program material would work, I think we got some really impressive sounds out of the SoundScapes. There were literally oohs and aaahs, and I think Jim lined up enough SongTower sales to make the trip a freebie for them. And special hats off to Frank for his Ultravalve 70. 35 pc tube watts filled that cavern with sound. And also thanks to Jim and Mary for the lobster dinner, even if that's not quite what we ordered. When a waiter smiles a lot and doesn't say anything, maybe he doesn't speak English. Great lobster, though.
Cool. I thought I saw a couple of very purposeful visitors to the room. I'm glad that it all might have worked out for Jim.
What material did you settle on to make the most out of the cavern?
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Looking at the picture of the SongTower's next to the SoundScape, I notice the tweeter is higher on the SS's. Is that an intentional design; requiring the midrange driver to be at ear level instead of the tweeter? Also, concerning the SongTower's, the listeners ear level should be at the tweeter height, no? I just want to be sure.
Forgive me if this question was already asked and answered previously.
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Newzooreview, thanks for the link. I was able to download some pretty fine samples from that site. Some of their stuff seems a bit pricey though. $160 for the Jazz at a Pawnshop double high def CD!
Bob
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Somewhere in rural Pennsylvania...
Just a quick note to thank everyone who took the time to visit us at Capital Audiofest. We had a great time and met some great people. It was especially nice to meet area owners in person. After you communicate via emails or phone calls for a while, you start to get the feeling you know someone. Meeting them in person at an event like this is really enjoyable.
Thanks to Dennis for all his help and his wonderful hospitality. Dennis prepared a great meal for us Thursday evening. Thanks to Richard and Bonnie Swerdlow for the great Thai meal on Friday evening. Saturday, Dennis and I ordered pike mouse in lobster sauce at a great small French restaurant. We were served lobster instead. I don't know how that happened, but when we explained to the waiter that lobster was not what we ordered, he smiled as if to say, "good, isn't it!" And, of course, it was.
Thanks, too, to John Fallows of our staff who flew out on the spur of the moment and helped us get packed for the return trip. He just couldn't pass up the swap meet on Sunday morning and we're hauling the spoils back with us.
As for the venue, the room was indeed a major challenge. Thanks to Gary Gill, organizer of the event, for lining up a large rug that covered most of the floor. It helped quite a bit, but it could only do so much. By Sunday, we had figured out which musical selections excited room modes and avoided those cuts as much as possible. Too bad no one heard how good the SoundScapes could be in a decent room. But I think most people who heard them at least got a good hint of what they might offer.
The room, although large, was much better suited to the SongTowers since they did not produce the deep bass that really excited room modes. So we tended to play them more often.
All and all, even though it was a last-minute decision to attend the show, I am glad we did. We had a great time with great friends, old and new. And that made the trip all worthwhile.
Thanks again to everyone who made us feel right at home in DC.
- Jim
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Looking at the picture of the SongTower's next to the SoundScape, I notice the tweeter is higher on the SS's. Is that an intentional design; requiring the midrange driver to be at ear level instead of the tweeter? Also, concerning the SongTower's, the listeners ear level should be at the tweeter height, no? I just want to be sure.
Forgive me if this question was already asked and answered previously.
To answer the easy question first, yes--you should listen to the ST's on the tweeter axis. The two woofs will start to cancel each other in the upper midrange if you don't. Ideally, the tweeter probably should be a little higher, but there's only so much you can do in an MTM without making the cabinet too tall for the width--both from an aesthetic and stability standpoint.
And ideally, the tweeter should be a little lower on the SoundScape. Again, aesthetics come into play. But the SS's are much less sensitive to listening axis than an MTM. Nothing horrible will happen if your ears happen to end up at the bottom of the tweeter or a little lower. A little dip will start to develop at the crossover point, but I think it would only be audible on pink or white noise.
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Jim or Swerd -
Was the Thai meal courtesy of Thai Basil in Chantilly? I know its a fair ways from Swerd's house, but it is well known across the country for having great Thai food (it was also featured on Food Network).
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I just got back from the show and had the pleasure of meeting Jim and Mary for the first time and seeing Dennis again after I auditioned the prototype HT1-TLs at his place last year. He didn't know that I had bought them a week or so after hearing them at his house. And yes, I still love them! :thumb:
This was the first audio show that I've been to, and the variability and challenges of room acoustics are horrific. :o Jim told me that they priced out the installation of some drapes around the rear wall, but that was simply too expensive. The large green rug was a $100 acquisition with the help of the show organizer. Even after the treatments the room's high ceilings and plaster walls gave it a somewhat cavernous sound. The fantastic depth and width of the soundstage produced by the SongTowers and the SoundScapes was very evident and impressive: nothing that I heard at the show was comparable.
Jim was playing the SongTowers with an AVA Ultravalve amplifier, and during one of my visits to the room a fellow asked to confirm his assumption that it was the SoundScapes that were playing. He was somewhat surprised to know that it was the SongTowers. They were producing very good bass in the large room: I've seen a number of questions here about whether the SongTowers would suit a large room, and at the show that did not seem to be an issue at all.
The volume was also plenty loud. The AvaStar preamp was at 9 o'clock almost all of the time and 10 o'clock was definitely louder than I would want it for an extended period. The rest of the setup included a music server streaming by WiFi to a SqueezBox that was connected by Coax to the AVA Vision DAC. Jim was running this by iPhone Remote (or another iPhone app?). The Vision DAC also had a CD player connected to its second coax input. I think it was a Denon--likely a solid transport mechanism that served the need well. Everything was plugged into a power strip of the Radio Shack variety.
One thing I noticed was that the volume control on the AvaStar remote was a bit zippy: it tended to ramp up and down quickly and took a practiced touch to increment with any precision. I'm thinking of getting an AvaStar, so I'll have to ask AVA if they can make a remote with a lower velocity on the adjustment.
The sound with the UltraValve and the Songtowers was excellent. The room was definitely a limiting factor (as it was throughout the old mansion), but it was still evident that there was musical reproduction happening to a very high standard. Jim let me play a CD I had brought of Oscar Peterson's "We Get Requests". It sounded terrific, and Jim wanted a link to it:
http://www.firstimpressionmusic.com/product_p/limk2hd032.htm
They have a number of really nicely remastered and pressed discs. Pricey, but they seem to put a lot of care into improved mastering and pressing. I've liked everything I've purchased from them. Jazz At The Pawn Shop is another excellent disc of theirs.
I heard some pretty disappointing sound in a number of the rooms at the show, and the ones that had good things going on (the Fibonacci room was pleasant) were not as balanced and complete as the sound in the Salk room in my view: they all had fairly evident flaws.
One noteworthy flawed but interesting room was home to a couple of Dr. Seuss horn speakers that swooped down at me from left and right. They were playing Ella and Louis, Again, and the midrange clarity and detail was wonderful and lifelike: except for a very pronounced, hissing sibilance. Dennis commented on the same thing, but the fellow in the room when I was there who had a Motorola Bluetooth mobile phone headset embedded in his left ear didn't seem to hear anything wrong. :scratch:
Jim and Dennis were playing the SoundScapes with the AVA FetValve Double Ultra+ 550. The speaker efficiency went down and the amplifier power went up leaving the volume knob at about 9 o'clock still. As happy as a person would be with the Songtowers, she would be happier still with the SoundScapes. As I said above, however, the room was a major factor in limiting a full and fair comparison.
I hope that the show is held again next year, but perhaps at a venue that better lends itself to the exhibitors being able to treat the rooms adequately. It would also be nice if a couple of the more aggressive exhibitors weren't there, but the majority were friendly and professional.
Also, I missed the opportunity to purchase some magic power cables this time at a show discount. The cables had engineered both the words "mega" and "power" into their name and the cable manufacturer was disappointed to hear that I liked the Salk room best because he hadn't been able to loan any cables to them since the AVA equipment was magic-proofed. (Frankly, I've heard some differences between power cables, but I haven't yet heard $500 worth of difference and I've been happy with my $12 Volex for a while now).
My impression like other was that the sound was disappointing. But what gets me is that other rooms with similar challenges had better sound. I must admit that the Salk speakers just didn't rise to the level I had anticipated. what I'm getting at is that even thought others vendors complained about the bright rooms (Grape Vine Audion for one and btw had one of the BEST sounding rooms at the show) you could still gauge the potential of the speaker leaving you with the impression there was more to gain from them. The Salks just didn't have that effect on me.
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One last thing. Jim needs to seriously consider his source. There was absolutely no extended highs or blooming mid range at all and a little toe in may have helped sound staging.
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I don't believe Grapevine makes speakers--just amps. Do you recall which speakers were being demonstrated?
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One last thing. Jim needs to seriously consider his source. There was absolutely no extended highs or blooming mid range at all and a little toe in may have helped sound staging.
What's a "blooming" mid-range? That sounds bad to me, but I don't know what the term means.
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Hey ricman, after the next review comes out I suspect you will seriously reconsider suggesting that Jim Salk "seriously considers his source." :)
Best regards,
Frank Van Alstine
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My impression like other was that the sound was disappointing. But what gets me is that other rooms with similar challenges had better sound. I must admit that the Salk speakers just didn't rise to the level I had anticipated. what I'm getting at is that even thought others vendors complained about the bright rooms (Grape Vine Audion for one and btw had one of the BEST sounding rooms at the show) you could still gauge the potential of the speaker leaving you with the impression there was more to gain from them. The Salks just didn't have that effect on me.
You quoted me, but I don't think the sound from the Salk speakers was disappointing. :scratch: The room was a big challenge, certainly. In fact it was by far the most difficult room in the place. The only other room that large was on the opposite side of the mansion's entryway, but it had more carpeting and soft furniture and had a different shape--not the big long cavern of the Salk room. All of the other rooms were significantly smaller in my recollection, and the speakers and seating were much closer so that the listener had a much better chance of hearing the sound directly from the speakers before room reflections started to dominate.
Given the obvious limitations of the room it seems a stretch to pin any specific deficiencies on source components. I've heard an AVA DAC fed by a standard transport through SongTowers and the SoundScapes, and neither high-frequency extension or mid range clarity was a problem. I've always understood mid-range "bloom" to be associated with the particular (and sometimes pleasing) distortion that some tube amps produce. Elimination of distortions, however, is an AVA (and Salk) design goal.
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My impression like other was that the sound was disappointing. But what gets me is that other rooms with similar challenges had better sound. I must admit that the Salk speakers just didn't rise to the level I had anticipated. what I'm getting at is that even thought others vendors complained about the bright rooms (Grape Vine Audion for one and btw had one of the BEST sounding rooms at the show) you could still gauge the potential of the speaker leaving you with the impression there was more to gain from them. The Salks just didn't have that effect on me.
This logic (can you call it logic?) is completely lost on me. How about anyone else?
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I think people should be more respectful of unpopular/lukewarm opinions of Salks, no one speaker if for everyone.
Now onto something more important, my opinion. Regarding the Soundscapes, the dynamics, clarity, soundstage, and the way the speakers completely disappeared from the room was just so above and beyond what I've heard before, I was left speechless. Ridiculous.
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I think people should be more respectful of unpopular/lukewarm opinions of Salks, no one speaker if for everyone.
Now onto something more important, my opinion. Regarding the Soundscapes, the dynamics, clarity, soundstage, and the way the speakers completely disappeared from the room was just so above and beyond what I've heard before, I was left speechless. Ridiculous.
Hi I'm glad you liked the speaks, and I also agree that we shouldn't jump on anyone who didn't hear what we heard. I'm really not apologizing for the sound in any way--that was one big hog room, and it made vocals very difficult as I think you can understand, but at the same time all that space above and behind the speakers made for some very dramatic presentations--particularly on organ, brass, and Big Bass Drums.
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Hey ricman, after the next review comes out I suspect you will seriously reconsider suggesting that Jim Salk "seriously considers his source." :)
Best regards,
Frank Van Alstine
Which speaker was reviewed? Wish I could have made the show.
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Hi I'm glad you liked the speaks, and I also agree that we shouldn't jump on anyone who didn't hear what we heard. I'm really not apologizing for the sound in any way--that was one big hog room, and it made vocals very difficult as I think you can understand, but at the same time all that space above and behind the speakers made for some very dramatic presentations--particularly on organ, brass, and Big Bass Drums.
I actually enjoy reading negative things about Salk speakers and AVA gear. To me at least, it makes all the positive reviews that much more credible :)
I've listened to a lot of speakers, and Salks are the only ones I've found that I truly enjoy. Obviously there isn't one "best" speaker, but I think I've been lucky enough to find the manufacturer who is "best" for me. :D After owning my HT2-TLs, I wouldn't even hesitate to buy the Soundscapes without hearing them if I was looking to upgrade. I guess it's largely thanks to Dennis, but the Salk sound perfectly matches my taste.
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Jim or Swerd -
Was the Thai meal courtesy of Thai Basil in Chantilly? I know its a fair ways from Swerd's house, but it is well known across the country for having great Thai food (it was also featured on Food Network).
We ate Thai food at Benjarong http://www.benjarongthairestaurant.com/ (http://www.benjarongthairestaurant.com/), a place nearby the Glenview Mansion in Rockville.
I have to agree with the others who thought the room had a lot to do with the disappointing sound. It had very high ceilings, marble floors, and all the walls and ceilings were plaster. Not only was that room very large, it was empty of furniture. All those hard surfaces had an effect that I thought was quite different from the other rooms of the mansion, large or small, which had much lower ceilings, wooden floors, furnishings, and curtains.
I've heard Salk speakers including the SoundScapes in a variety of other rooms, and none of them were like the room at the Glenview mansion. That room had the ambiance more like a railroad station or a cathedral than any room in a private home.
So to respond to the person who voiced the lukewarm or unpopular opinions, I respect your impressions. I think you described what I heard too. But I urge you to listen to Salk speakers again under different conditions before you make those your settled opinions.
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That room doesn't appear to be perfect, but it's not the worst room I've ever seen. I think a good speaker design should work in as many rooms as possible, too. With that said, I've heard the Salk lineup and have always come away impressed with their value...at their pricepoints, I think they're some of the best finished products around.
Getting a realistic feel for their performance in a variety of surroundings is good for potential customers. We don't all have perfect rooms and understanding spouses (regarding room treatments/placement).
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Which speaker was reviewed?
A well-regarded audio magazine (print) will print a review of the SongTowers coupled with AVA's new Ultravalve tube amp. No other information can be made available until after the magazine is shipped, which should be toward the end of the month.
- Jim
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We ate Thai food at Benjarong http://www.benjarongthairestaurant.com/ (http://www.benjarongthairestaurant.com/), a place nearby the Glenview Mansion in Rockville.
I have to agree with the others who thought the room had a lot to do with the disappointing sound. It had very high ceilings, marble floors, and all the walls and ceilings were plaster. Not only was that room very large, it was empty of furniture. All those hard surfaces had an effect that I thought was quite different from the other rooms of the mansion, large or small, which had much lower ceilings, wooden floors, furnishings, and curtains.
I've heard Salk speakers including the SoundScapes in a variety of other rooms, and none of them were like the room at the Glenview mansion. That room had the ambiance more like a railroad station or a cathedral than any room in a private home.
So to respond to the person who voiced the lukewarm or unpopular opinions, I respect your impressions. I think you described what I heard too. But I urge you to listen to Salk speakers again under different conditions before you make those your settled opinions.
Swerdlow heard the speaks on Friday after we (which includes Swerdlow--many thanks) had first set them up, and before we had analyzed exactly where the problem areas were, and what types of music were most affected. By Sunday, I think the speakers spoke for themselves. If our negative reviewer heard them on Sunday, then all I can say is that you don't like Salk speakers. It wasn't the room (and certainly not Frank's great Ultravalve amp).
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Anyone?
Here ya go:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=82313.msg793345#msg793345
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My impression like other was that the sound was disappointing. But what gets me is that other rooms with similar challenges had better sound. I must admit that the Salk speakers just didn't rise to the level I had anticipated. what I'm getting at is that even thought others vendors complained about the bright rooms (Grape Vine Audion for one and btw had one of the BEST sounding rooms at the show) you could still gauge the potential of the speaker leaving you with the impression there was more to gain from them. The Salks just didn't have that effect on me.
Comparing different gear in different rooms? :nono:
Apples, meet oranges.
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To answer the easy question first, yes--you should listen to the ST's on the tweeter axis. The two woofs will start to cancel each other in the upper midrange if you don't. Ideally, the tweeter probably should be a little higher, but there's only so much you can do in an MTM without making the cabinet too tall for the width--both from an aesthetic and stability standpoint.
And ideally, the tweeter should be a little lower on the SoundScape. Again, aesthetics come into play. But the SS's are much less sensitive to listening axis than an MTM. Nothing horrible will happen if your ears happen to end up at the bottom of the tweeter or a little lower. A little dip will start to develop at the crossover point, but I think it would only be audible on pink or white noise.
I missed this reply somehow. Thank you, Dennis.
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Comparing different gear in different rooms? :nono:
Apples, meet oranges.
Bingo. Those who claim to be able to discern differences in gear and speakers in many different bad rooms must possess super-human hearing. Its not even close to an apples to apples comparison, nor is it wise to do IMO, as you will hear more room than speakers. To each their own.
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Hey ricman, after the next review comes out I suspect you will seriously reconsider suggesting that Jim Salk "seriously considers his source." :)
Best regards,
Frank Van Alstine
I don't think it's AVA electronics. May be it's the choice of music, the file format........ :dunno:
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I don't think it's AVA electronics. May be it's the choice of music, the file format........ :dunno:
I see you live in DC. Have you been to Dennis's to check out the speakers in a more favorable room or at least to confirm your first impressions?
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I got there Saturday afternoon with my 8 year old daughter in tow. We went straight to Salk room as I was very interested in listening to the SoundScape. They were few folks in there listening to Song Tower which sounded pretty good and lively in that room. I waited patiently and looked around to get a sense of the place. Finally the folks left (I sure hope they ordered the Song Tower) and I asked to hear the SoundScape. I didn't bring any music as I was really baby sitting and didn't think I would have time to sit down and critically listen. I asked Jim and Dennis for variety of music and came away impressed. I can understand Ric's disappointment as I also had difficult time with the tones. The cavernous and hard room just wasn't going to give you smooth and warm tones. We are not talking horrible sound folks. It is only wanting because you want great stuff from a pair of $10K speakers. What I did get was holographic sound stage with good rhythm, pace and extension. The organ music shook the room. I would like to hear them in my room. I bet I can get some sweet tones out with my 80 triode watt mono block and vinyl as source.
I was so lost in listening to the speakers and totally forgot about my daughter. :oops: No worries though as I found Rachel deep in conversation with Mary who was very, very nice to her. My daughter really liked Mary and Salk room and wanted to say bye when we were leaving, but they had already packed up as the room was being set up for a concert.
Jim, would you tell Mary that Rachel says good bye. I will bring her again if you do this next year. I also wanted to chat with Dennis about the rooms he found interesting but I will have to do it here. Jim and Dennis are good people. You don't talk to them and come away feeling like you just talked to salesmen. They talk to you like a fellow audiophile who truly enjoys this hobby. :thumb:
North Creek/Fibonacci Ribbon room was interesting. You can see the ribbons move in and out. I am not convinced that they are are good from 80 Hz up. I think they have uneven response and I think they are more efficient up top then lower range. What I heard was great mids accompanied with bright highs. It's possible they sound better with tube amps but I saw SS Belles (?) amp driving them. The sub enclosure had active driver and passive one facing out. They sounded more appropriate for HT then 2 channel to me. The room was set up for 5.1 but I only heard the 2.1. I think the ribbons would have been better if they were filtered to separate the mids and the highs.
Grapevine audio featured SS Class AB amp driving really neat looking Odeon (Elektra?) speakers. 50 watts seemed to be an overkill for the horn speakers but the room sounded good. We had a good discussion on a new DAC that is being developed by them.
The Border Patrol room with Parallel SET 300B amps with separate tube rectified PS on each block sounded really good driving Living Voice speakers. Nice synergy. Vocals were great as expected but I also heard one of the best PRAT on any speakers driven by 300B SET amps. Is it the British speakers or his amps? Gary Dews attributed his unique PS for this and he may have something here. I should check his stuff out as he is local.
What is an audiofest if there is no used vinyl to peruse and buy? :wink: I picked up a Callas Carmen she recorded in '63 in excellent shape. By this time her voice was cracking but she could still do mezzo. She does a passionate Carmen that I always wanted in vinyl and I got it for $4. That is $1.33 per record. :thumb:
All in all, we had a great time. My daughter is growing up and acquiring discerning taste in sound quality. We stopped at Sweetwater Tavern and got crab cakes and fillets. She had a Shirley Temple and I had a good IPA (their wine list doesn't meet my standard). Mom was out on a girl's night out just in case anyone was wondering. 8)
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I don't think it's AVA electronics. May be it's the choice of music, the file format........ :dunno:
Or perhaps the horrible acoustics in that cavernous room... :wink:
If you didn't like it, you didn't like it. I would, however, not fully judge any speaker in that room. YMMV. According to others, most of the rooms at Capital AudioFest were bad. That's a real shame.
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I see you live in DC. Have you been to Dennis's to check out the speakers in a more favorable room or at least to confirm your first impressions?
Sending you a pm.
thanks
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woodsyi -
Thanks for stopping by the room. It was great meeting you and Rachael.
I'm sorry we could not have had a better sounding room so you could here the SoundScapes in all their glory. But we knew even before we left home that the room would be a problem. I liked the analogy of a train station. We tried what we could to tame it, but there was only so much we could do. The lower midrange and upper bass just excited room modes and made a muddy mess. But we're still glad we went.
I'll pass on the message from Rachael. Mary just could not get over how intelligent she is. Can you say "genius"! Mary will be glad to hear she made a good impression.
Hopefully we'll return next year and get a better room. I was really coveting that wood-paneled library room. It it is available next year, we'll have to snap it up.
- Jim
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Final observations & Lessons Learned from the Capital Audiofest…
This was the first audio show I ever attended and overall I had fun. I wish I could have spent more time there on Saturday, but I had work to do (mow the lawn, shop for groceries, do some laundry) because I had to go the DIA annual meeting (that's the Drug Information Association, not the Defense Intelligence Agency) and give a talk on Sunday evening. I had to wear a coat & tie in 94° heat and humidity in downtown DC. Ugh :(.
It was fun leaving work early on Thursday and helping Jim & Mary unload their very heavy gear. I got to add my sweat to the high gloss of the SoundScape 10! Being a pretend Salk Roadie was much better than finishing my slides for the talk on Sunday.
It was fun to meet some others I've only known online, like Ron Lee. Bonnie & I really enjoyed dinner with you, Dennis, Jim & Mary at the Thai restaurant. I wish I could have met all of the others from AC who were there.
Lesson #1: Rooms really do make a large difference in sound. The Glenview Mansion was the best illustration of that I've experienced. I agree with Jim that the wood paneled room seemed to have great sound. But then again it could have been the speakers in there :?.
Lesson #2: Don't wear a Salk Signature Sound t-shirt to an audio show. I got scowled at by some other (unnamed) guys who were displaying their speakers.
Lesson #3: Never try to joke with any guy who is demoing his highly esoteric vinyl jazz collection over a highly priced exotic turntable, SET tube amp, and horn speakers. He is likely to take himself far too seriously to have the time for humor. (I asked why his turntable had two tone arms, when he only used one at a time.)
Lesson #4: I heard a recording of Lewis Armstrong singing St. James Infirmary (made ~1959) that was real fine :green:. I didn't know I liked him that much. Thumbs up to the guy demoing the Joseph Audio Pulsars for playing that. He clearly enjoyed music and a few jokes as well :thumb:.
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It was fun leaving work early on Thursday and helping Jim & Mary unload their very heavy gear. I got to add my sweat to the high gloss of the SoundScape 10! Being a pretend Salk Roadie was much better than finishing my slides for the talk on Sunday.
Roadie Richard contributing sweat...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=31634)
Thanks Richard.
- Jim