AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: jmimac351 on 2 Dec 2023, 01:15 am
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I've owned a pair of Merlin Music VSM speakers for over 20 years. They are a tower 2-way speaker with Esotar tweeter and Scan-Speak 8545 woofer. I always thought they were good... but a little "finicky". You had to pair them with the right stuff for them to sound good. Or, was that really the problem?... more on that... Punchline: "You have to use these speakers with tubes because tubes are the only thing that are going to allow you to deal with the very forward sound due to lack of baffle step correction."
Recently, I acquired a pair of Wilson Audio Duette speakers. They were also "a little finicky"... and even more than a little finicky. They are very FORWARD and IN YO FACE! The speakers will actually melt your face, in stock form. As Danny found via measurement, the Duette did not account for baffle step loss either, and they are very forward sounding. Revealing, yep. Pleasant? Not really... but so revealing that after hearing a pair at a friends house I found a pair. I thought they were different, and they are. Now, after having a proper crossover designed for them by Danny, they should be much better - for me.
Hmm... I'm noticing a pattern. What do the Merlin VSM and Wilson Audio Duette have in common? Well, the Merlin VSM also did not account for baffle step loss. That's why they sound "finicky"... "will reveal your upstream electronics"... "must be paired with the right gear". From now on, when I read that in a review (by some person who just happens to have their opinions put into print and it influences your mental health / decision-making), I am going to think... "yeah, they probably didn't account for baffle step loss, lets see the measurements between 700hz and 2khz". The Merlin VSM is rated at 89db sensitivity. The Scan-Speak 8545 woofer is rated at 88db... because, yep, no baffle step correction! The Merlin VSM came with a "BAM" - Bass Augmentation Module which provided 5.2db of boost at 35hz. Why would you need to artificially boost the bass of a speaker? Because it's uneven due to... lack of baffle step correction. I've come to very well realize that BAM was no "feature" of the speaker - it was there because of the glaring flaw of no baffle step correction! The good news is that I'm very smart, and realizing this patter only took me 20+ years. :duh: Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Batman! You live and learn... (or you keep doing dumb stuff). This all seems obvious now, in retrospect.
What's more... the measurements for the VSM show it, unfortunately. Imagine my sheer "joy" to see measurements from Danny for the VSM... after I'd already spent a $$$ number with a comma in it for an "upgraded crossover" for the VSM. :duh: Well, sometimes you make your own luck, and this week I have found a new owner for that special, upgraded crossover. He's a long time Merlin VSM owner, wants it, and I want to move on from that "voicing / sound" (poor crossover design). Between the Wilson Duette, the Merlin VSM, and the measurements for each, I am quickly learning what I like, and don't like. TIP: Watch out for the range between 700Hz and 2kHz. Danny mentions it multiple times in various videos... the answers / secrets are being shared, if you're paying attention. He's not just filling dead air like commentators for a football game... LISTEN and connect the dots.
Merlin Music VSM Measurements
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=259225)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=259226)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=259228)
Now... what to do with this 20+ year old, 2-way tower speaker that weighs 85lbs, now has no crossover, a very good tweeter, and a woofer that appears to have some ringing up into 1khz+ range?
Well... I gotta idea... the top chamber for the Dynaudio Esotar is sealed. How about a driver that plays mids / top end coherently and assign the Scan-Speak 8545 the task of handling up to 200hz without whining / honking / shouting about it?
The LGK 2.0 fitment in the image is to scale. I'll need to fabricate a plate / something to mount it. No big deal.
Anybody wanna bet it will sound better than it does now and not be "finicky about upstream electronics" because it's "ruthelessly revealing" (because it doesn't account for baffle step loss and is in your face...)?
This is gonna happen, unless somebody says "there's just no way that's gonna work, besides, I gotta better idea..."
A Dayton Audio DATS measuring system arrives tomorrow. I have a UMIK microphone and REW will measure actual speaker response - not just room response. XSIM should be able to plot this out and get it close... then fiddle with low cost parts until... hopefully... it's "right". And, I know a guy who can probably look at measurements like he's looking at The Matrix is say "swap in and out these 2 caps / resistors". I know "it's not that easy"... but I should be able to make it better than it is now, I hope. Maybe I can even buy some variation of an LGK kit with some extra parts for measuring / fiddling?
And then there's spreading some Joy in a different way, perhaps another Merlin owner not suffering from Cognitive Dissonance will like it too... I've already spoken to one long time, well known owner who thinks any criticism, and Danny's measurements of this speaker in particular, are completely flawed and heresy: although, he never did dispute the lack of baffle step correction - the core issue with the speaker. Me, wasting time --> :banghead:
People can be real "funny" about "their chosen speakers". I don't get it...(well, I do... many people are mental) it's about the Music, and making it sound nice. That's why I have a pair of Sony SS-CS5 sitting in front of me. :thumb:
Stay tuned...
:popcorn:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Speakers/i-PsGQpWj/0/576003b4/L/Screenshot%202023-12-01%20at%207.59.54%E2%80%AFPM-L.png)
(https://sigsound.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Merlin_VSM.jpg)
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This sounds like one heck of a fun project. I mean really at the end of the day you're not permanently altering anything that can't be redone and sold as an original Merlin speaker. You'd only be out a couple cost effective drivers, some parts and your time. A few hundred $ is well worth a couple weeks of education and entertainment in the garage and the possibility of a better speaker in the end. Really looking forward to seeing your progress. :popcorn:
-Lloyd
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The LGK 2.0 is a very nice driver indeed. I find it sounds best when listened to on-axis.
In a room you can measure down to 200hz or so with the time-sliced approach. For lower than that you can measure them outside. Not perfect, but better than in a room. You still have ground bounce, but not any wall or ceiling bounce for bass. If you raise the speaker off the ground as much as you can, ground bounce is also reduced.
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The other thing I was looking at was swapping in the GR M165 driver to pair with the Esotar tweeter. The M165 will bolt right into the cabinet and the performance looks like it will be better than the Scan-Speak 8545 driver in the mids / upper mids (less ringing). What's more, this would be even easier if I just went ahead and swapped in the M165 along with the LGK... And the baffle width of the VSM is the same as the S-LS Encore tower... soooo :scratch:
Oh man, another $70 for 2 woofers! The prices on the drivers from Danny makes all of this possible and less stressful, especially when you have no idea what you're doing! :lol: The removable crossover back plate on the VSM certainly helps.
This is worth saving, and making better. The bottom of the tower is an MDF plug. When you go to pick this up, the 85lbs makes you pause and regroup. :green: The bracing inside the speaker could be better. The Stereophile review of the speaker mentions some resonance on the front of the baffle, just below the port. If you look at the picture, there is a 1" x 2" brace right there, and apparently the "weak brace" is doing a "weak job". I could cut some MDF pieces and finagle them thru the woofer hole / glue in place to reinforce that area, to help that out. Thanks John Atkinson! :thumb:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=259283)
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I had the same resonance problem with my old Von Schweikert VR2 speakers so I added braces, lots of them. Overall it was a huge improvement, bass was tighter and deeper and imaging improved because the cabinet wasn't vibrating as much.
The solid wood braces were tapered at the ends to clear the drivers. The triangle shape take up less volume, has a non-parallel face, and are thick in the middle where the speaker sides need the most dampening. Each speaker has 8 braces installed, which measured out to 3 1/2" between each brace. I used three dabs of hot melt glue and Titebond III. The hot melt glue acted as a clamp until the Titebond dried and made a permanent bond. I used Grizzly polyurethane glue (https://www.grizzlyglue.com/) with hot melt glue when I installed the resonant control panels, which made the speakers disappear.
(http://www.wghwoodworking.com/av/VR2-2.jpg)
The results were so good I added more braces and interlocked them.
(http://www.wghwoodworking.com/audio/VR2_bracing_kit.jpg)
Installing Braces
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=44748.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=44748.0)
Resonance Control Panels
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=72808.msg683847#msg683847 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=72808.msg683847#msg683847)
Have fun!
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I had the same resonance problem with my old Von Schweikert VR2 speakers so I added braces, lots of them. Overall it was a huge improvement, bass was tighter and deeper and imaging improved because the cabinet wasn't vibrating as much.
Thank you for taking time to share this info!!! :thumb:
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Update to Update... evidently I misunderstood whether a crossover could be done without another VSM being in house. It can't be done properly. So, I'm stuck, unless I send a VSM in.
We'll see if it makes sense.
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Who knew Danny was the 5th member of the A Team?
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Hi jmimac.
Can you please provide some infos which crossover did you use?
i have the drivers here and would like to make some speakers with them.
and your post was very interesting and i need some more help please.
regards from vienna
fencki
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Hi jmimac.
Can you please provide some infos which crossover did you use?
i have the drivers here and would like to make some speakers with them.
and your post was very interesting and i need some more help please.
regards from vienna
fencki
For clarity... the LGK idea and M165 idea expressed above are not happening...
See here for the video Danny posted: https://youtu.be/dQ78c-6tH7s?si=oGkEL5X2ysstzvXO
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For clarity... the LGK idea and M165 idea expressed above are not happening...
However...
1) I have verified the original crossover schematic for the Merlin Music VSM. Even after purchasing an "upgraded" crossover for the speaker, that info was not forthcoming from the person I did business with. A fact which I am not shy to say that I am THERMONUCLEAR PI$$ED about. I'll be abundantly clear... this was not Danny, this was someone else and I have moved on from dealing with that person regarding the Merlin VSM, or anything else. Whatever the case, I have verified the original crossover schematic for the Merlin VSM, and it's documented. Even so... it will soon be rendered moot.
2) Unlike the lack of support I received from the person I did business with, I am happy to help you in anyway I can, all the way from the US of A. Folks reading this should remember, this is a speaker long out of production from a company that no longer exists. The designer passed away in 2015.
But...
3) Please be patient... keep your powder dry... cool your jets... I am working on a box to ship 1 Merlin Music VSM to Texas.
4) The end result is not going to be a "regular speaker"... I'm very excited about it... and I'm hopeful the loyal owners of Merlin VSM speakers find it adds to their enjoyment of a speaker many have owned for a long time. I'm glad there are people like Danny Richie to help other people have fun, and nothing is going to stop this from happening, notwithstanding FedEx. :lol:
I don't know about ya'll, but I'm here to have fun.
:popcorn:
thank you for your feedback.
can you tell me if you have the original schematics of the crossovers for the speaker?
if yes, can you please share it with me?
or do you still have the original crossovers and are you willing to sell them?
thank you in advance
regards from vienna
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thank you for your feedback.
can you tell me if you have the original schematics of the crossovers for the speaker?
if yes, can you please share it with me?
or do you still have the original crossovers and are you willing to sell them?
thank you in advance
regards from vienna
Hello, I do not have the original crossovers. The speakers are currently non-functional.
Below is what I've confirmed is the schematic for the Merlin Music VSM loudspeaker; however, I would not recommend using it...unless your goal is the measured performance posted further up in this thread.
As a reminder for others... this speaker is no longer in production, the company no longer exists, and the owner passed in 2015.
The pics with the yellow Hovland caps are the Merlin VSM "MM" version, which I owned. It's apparent the various versions of the VSM amounted to different wire / parts / "lead free" / etc... not a fundamental crossover change / redesign. I have confirmed this fact. The crossover pics with the Blue caps was the very latest "Black Magic" version, which I owned, never installed, and recently sold. The number of caps on the woofer varied, but their values add up to the same ~17uf.
If someone knows better or can point to something to correct / clarify.... please do so.
I am going to send Danny a VSM speaker; however, I have a few tweaks I need to make to the cabinet prior to doing that. Feel free to build this crossover, but something better is going to happen...
I'm a sucker for 2 way speakers with soft dome tweeters and paper cone woofers... and I really like the Esotar tweeter.
Have fun.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=260443&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=260439&size=xlarge)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=260442&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=260440)
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Hi.
Thank you very much.
Now i can start building my crossover.
may I ask you why on your photos there are the resistors and one inductor missing?
or did i miss something?
i am very thankful for your help and all your updates.
keep us updated with your projects...
:D
Thank you
BR
s.
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Hi.
Thank you very much.
Now i can start building my crossover.
may I ask you why on your photos there are the resistors and one inductor missing?
or did i miss something?
i am very thankful for your help and all your updates.
keep us updated with your projects...
:D
Thank you
BR
s.
That diagram that he posted is not going to work well with those drivers.
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Hi.
Thank you very much.
Now i can start building my crossover.
may I ask you why on your photos there are the resistors and one inductor missing?
or did i miss something?
i am very thankful for your help and all your updates.
keep us updated with your projects...
:D
Thank you
BR
s.
The resistors are there in the picture. They are Caddock resistors. The other inductor is INSIDE the speaker cabinet (also pictured above / inside the large, white tube)... and I am finding it is glued in there like a mutha! I may need to pull out the "BFH"... a precision guided tool for certain circumstances. It is a descendant of the SawzAll species of tools. :lol:
You asked for the crossover for the Merlin VSM... and that is it. As Danny mentioned, you may not want to actually build that crossover. Why? See the frequency response Danny measured for the Merlin Music VSM, posted further up in this thread.
I am going to send Danny a Merlin Music VSM speaker and a new crossover is going to be designed. Based on what I'm hearing with the job he did on my Wilson Audio Duette speakers... the Merlin VSM is going sound really, really friggin' good...
So, my advice to you is to wait for that new crossover design. You should be able to get it from Danny when it is done. Or, you can build the one posted... whatever makes you happy. :thumb:
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Well, sometimes ya gotta bust out the BFH... or even the not so big BFH... :green:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261732&size=xlarge)
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So, the hole for the Scan-Speak 8545 woofer has no roundover on the inside. Time to bust out the grinder. We'll see if Danny is happy with how much I removed. Also, at the top of the cavity, there is the bottom of the chamber for the tweeter... and a flat face. So I put a radius sloping back to the rear. The picture doesn't quite show it, but it slopes back. I don't expect the effort will hurt!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261733&size=xlarge)
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I think I have found a clue regarding the measurement imbalance Danny found when he measured a VSM years ago. It appears the speaker really needs to be corner weighted... :thumb:
This is the weight of 1 VSM... with drivers / crossover parts / back crossover panel removed.
I am heading to Dallas next weekend for a track event at Eagles Canyon Raceway. I'm carrying the Esotar Tweeter and Scan-Speaker 8545 with me. I'm coming in a day early and, hopefully, I'll be able to watch Danny make this Merlin VSM speaker sound better than it ever has.
It has the guts... we'll see... :popcorn:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261735&size=large)
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An EZ Weigh scale?
I've had a few cars on those.
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An EZ Weigh scale?
I've had a few cars on those.
I figured as much... :thumb:
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Color me skeptical for what little it’s worth.
I owned VSM Mxe for a few years and thought they were fantastic speakers. I never found them to be forward or bright. I did find them to be very revealing and sensitive to equipment matching but that was one of their biggest attributes and not a weakness. I didn’t always run them with tubes, they were sweet with Moon gear, not so much with a big Krell FPB 700 that a friend brought over. Even a lowly Cambridge Audio 850 integrated amp sounded wonderful (that’s a real underrated amp by the way).
I didn’t use the Master BAM module exclusively with the VSM, I felt on most types of music it really wasn’t necessary, but it worked well with other music where low bass was more of a feature.
This was a well reviewed speaker and mostly loved by people who own it, hence the reason for it being quite rare on the used markets, I think. If you want to make it “better”… well, good luck.
I had to sell my floorstanders when I moved south a few years ago but I’m now using the stand-mounted Black Magic Edition speakers, which share a similar design principle and similar components to yours. These speakers are among the most detailed, transparent, and musically engaging I’ve owned over the years and I’ve owned a few.
I ran them for a little while with the Ars Sonum Filarmonia, which is a 30 watt E34L design and one of the amps recommended by the late owner of the company Bobby Palkovic. It sounds a little too sweet and relaxed for my tastes so I’ve just replaced it with a pair of Audio Mirror SET45 monoblocks which use the 6C33C tube and they sound bloody marvelous with the little TSM BME. I wish I had owned these amps when I had my VSMs back in the day.
Anyway, my point is that Merlin speakers can and do sound fantastic when set up properly and paired with the right equipment, which IME is a prerequisite for ANY high-end speakers, regardless. If modifying the crossover can make them sound even better then I say hats off to you for trying, but let’s keep it real when describing the originals.
For those stumbling on this thread as I did, it’s worth mentioning that Merlin speakers are still serviced and supported by Rick Brkich of Signature Sound in NY. I bought a new driver from Rick and a brand new Master series RC network, and he’s a good guy to deal with. He was a close friend of the owner and designer Bobby P, before he passed away I believe in 2015.
Good luck keeping the brand alive in some sense and I hope your project ends in success.
Rooze
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261801)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261802)
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@rooze I'm really glad you jumped in here and shared this. To let you know a little more about how I got here...
~ I bought my Merlin VSM speakers from Bobby in 1999. I've owned them a little more than a few years... I guess going on 25 now.
~ I sent them back to Bobby once for a "MM" upgrade. I spoke to Bobby many times on the phone. My wife and I saw him and the late Jud Barber of Joule Electra at the CES show in 2001. I currently own a Joule LAP150 Preamp, Joule VZN-80 amp, and Joule Electra VAMP.
~ The "stand mounted Black Magic edition" speakers you now own are the TSM. Yes. I've own 2 pairs of TSM speakers, one of them with the Black Magic crossovers. They are not the same speaker as the VSM, but I suspect they have the same issue as the VSM. After the dust settles from this, maybe you will decide to send one of them to Danny. (Keep your mind open on this)
~ A few years ago, Rich Brkich did the "Black Magic" crossovers for my speakers. I have known and done business with Rich for many years. In fact, he did the Black Magic upgrade to my VSM speakers and also to a pair of TSM speakers, which I no longer own.
So... it's safe to say... I'm a "Merlin Guy". I've own the current VSM for 25 years and TSMs on 2 other occasions.
Here's the thing... I used to think and believe exactly what you shared regarding the VSM. After all.. that's what we were told. Bobby told us that. Reviewers told us that. Everyone on the interwebs told us that. And then a funny thing happened... experience and "hearing the difference" and "The Why".
You mentioned couple of things that are often mentioned in reviews, by others / everyone... "they are resolving". "They have to be paired with the right equipment". I.e., "if you don't like the way they sound then your equipment may just not be up to the task".
Well, here is what I have learned thru experience and spending my own money. Now, keep in mind, several months ago I sent a Wilson Duette speaker to Danny. Would it be safe to assume that a "Wilson Audio" speaker should be beyond reproach? If someone said "well, the reason you think your Wilson Duette sound forward and are too resolving is because your equipment isn't up to the task". Or better yet... "you must use them with tubes" aka "The Crutch". Keep in mind, I own great tube gear. A speaker shouldn't "need to be used with tubes to sound good".
When I read you mention "revealing and sensitive to equipment matching" it makes me smile. I understand what you are saying and I know why you are saying it. Bobby Palkovic used to tell me that and I used to believe that. I believed if for decades. I understand, for some, it can be a very difficult thing to come to terms with the fact that what you thought was so and true for a long time is, in fact, not true.
I have already experienced people reacting to what I'm sharing. Some are quite annoyed by it. It is not "Heresy"...
Not Heresy... more "Hear and See"....
Without stealing too much of Danny's thunder... when I read the words "revealing" and "equipment matching", based on my experience, and the money I've spent to experience the difference, I know there is a high likelihood of "Lack of Baffle Step Compensation". "Resolving" very often corresponds to too much energy 700hz to 2,000 / 3,000khz. If you're interested, go watch the video Danny did on my Wilson Audio Duette here:
https://youtu.be/o_PJzPBCaOY?si=B2NdM5ZzkTmiiggm
Here's the thing... I already know how this story ends, and I am very hopeful it's going to be awesome. For any Merlin owner reading this thread, please know this... Danny has already measured the VSM. Another Merlin owner sent one to him many years ago. It's my understanding, after Danny measured the speaker, the other Merlin owner decided to just buy something else rather than having it fixed. Man, I really wish he'd just had the crossover redone then... it would have saved me $300 shipping it back and forth to Texas! I have already seen the response from the other speaker. Danny shared it when me when I mentioned to him earlier last year that I owned a VSM. Let's just say... when Danny sent me the measurements, and told me the issues, I was very disappointed. Since I have already confirmed with Rich Brkich that there were no fundamental design changes to the values in the Merlin crossover (Bobby played with better parts, which is fine, but the basic response stayed the same), imagine my disappointment when I was looking at Black Magic crossovers I'd already paid for, and no longer wanted to use?
Well, you aren't the only Merlin owner who is convinced the speaker is "right". So, I sold those Black Magic crossovers to another owner and hope he is happy with them.
Now, I was the proud, 25 year owner of a pair of Merlin VSM speakers with no crossovers. (No, I didn't have the original crossovers from Rich as those parts are difficult to remove without destroying)
So, what to do?... I know a guy! And I will be there next week to see that guy... and I'm hopeful this all works out fine and dandy. After I hang out at GR and play with speakers and eat some BBQ, I'm heading to Eagles Canyon Raceway for a track event. Can't wait... gonna Have Fun!
One thing I do... I Have Fun.
Remember... "Baffle Step Compensation"... :popcorn:
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I had a great time with Hobbs and Danny! This was really something to watch happen... and I am very excited...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=262050&size=large)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=261964&size=xlarge)
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Making the sausage...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=262049&size=large)
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Link to video about Merlin Music VSM --> https://youtu.be/dQ78c-6tH7s?si=-ZDD8UTQsv0qyAxo
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=262193&size=small)
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Nice! Are you wiring everything up now?
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I have the TSM, not the VSM, but there were some comments on issues w/ the drivers. As some one else noted, wasn't the Estotar considered one of the best soft domes produced? And I thought the mid bass unit was well regarded. Wasn't that the same driver used on some legends like the ProAc Response 2.5 and one of the Meadowlark speakers......the Shearwater I believe it was called.
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I have the TSM, not the VSM, but there were some comments on issues w/ the drivers. As some one else noted, wasn't the Estotar considered one of the best soft domes produced? And I thought the mid bass unit was well regarded. Wasn't that the same driver used on some legends like the ProAc Response 2.5 and one of the Meadowlark speakers......the Shearwater I believe it was called.
I really like the drivers, in fact, and the timing was perfect.... I have a pair of Odyssey Lorelei speakers that use the same 8545 driver, in a bigger floor standing enclosure. I got them last month. The bass from the 8545 in that Odyssey Lorelei speaker is really something... and made me realize there is a lot more left in the VSM and that I wanted to get this done. Some like the VSM just the way it is. I have heard what Danny has done to another 2-way that I thought was a forward sounding... and it transformed the speaker.
Danny can choose to comment on the 8545 and Esotar and what he did, but my understanding is it's not really "problems with the drivers" but more so than there are just things that need to be done to get them to be happy together. I think each may have common, known things that are addressed in the network. The 8454 has great extension but I don't think it's as happy playing up higher, like a GR driver. But I don't think one of Danny M165 drivers will play as low as the 8545... but if you're planning to use subs anyway, maybe you give up bottom end extension for a smoother midrange. I think the final crossover design maybe only had 11 parts? So, if there were any significant driver issues, it didn't take too much to resolve. That's fewer than what my Wilson Audio Duette needed. The Duette has 16 parts, per speaker.
I'm anxious to get the speaker back and get them fired up... and hear a 25 year old "brand new" speaker.
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Nice! Are you wiring everything up now?
This just got done week before last. I need to get the speaker back and Frederick needs to solder. :green:
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At some point, I thought I would get the Odyssey Lorelei. Heard 'em and really liked.(been a few years.) I have Stratos Monos. But now I'm pretty sure going OB. I dunno......why not both?
Hey man, ya gotta any post somewhere.....or website about your car racing?
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At some point, I thought I would get the Odyssey Lorelei. Heard 'em and really liked.(been a few years.) I have Stratos Monos. But now I'm pretty sure going OB. I dunno......why not both?
Hey man, ya gotta any post somewhere.....or website about your car racing?
I will have OB and Box speakers. I like speakers. Speakers are fun. I like owning several of them.
I'm on the Chief Instructor staff with www.chintrackdays.com
So, I have done amateur racing but what I mostly do now is help people have fun at racetracks. You can bring your car, and crazy people like me will get in the right seat and (try to) show you how to do it. The good news is that you naturally don't want to die and are going a lot slower than you could (but you're scared to), so you're not really causing me much worry. :green: At the end of the day, you're mentally drained, have less brake / tire, and you have a lifetime memory.
I was at the track 29 days last year. That's a lot of lifetime memories. It's been time well spent. I now mostly do the classroom for novice students, and also do classroom for the Motorsports Safety Foundation Instructor Training events held at certain Chin events. That's where we mint new driving instructors.
We do get to drive, of course. Appropriate for this week is Sebring International Raceway... with the 12hr coming up this weekend. I've been going to Sebring for 19 years. This is me in my 2008 Mazda MX-5 with 2.5L swap. I'm chasing my buddy in the gray NC Miata. What you can't see is him running on my tail down the back straight at Sebring, and I'm trying to break his draft by weaving.
This... is FUN and very few people in their life will ever experience something like that. However, you could... if you take the next step.
Video Link: https://youtu.be/ucNuv8C7Tm0?si=3rWRk66pQbxiDi3K
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=262299&size=medium)
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Very cool. Thanks. Hey if ya feel like it......hit me up on message (don't want to derail thread) Got a quick question for you on sports cars vs audio....assuming you can't afford both!
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Well, I now have the crossover upgrade schematic. I'm working with Frederick (who will build the crossovers), and Hobbs on a few parts swaps to more "boutique" stuff. Whether that's even "necessary"... well, I'd have to have 2 sets of speakers to find that out for sure - but it ain't gonna hurt.
What I have found out is that I really like the "standard" setup that Danny does for certain (not all) speakers, which involves Sonicaps on the tweeter circuit as standard, JB caps on the woofer circuit, and the red USCoils for inductors. That's the exact setup I've been listening to with my Wilson Audio Duette. And it sounds great! It's made me want to push down that road a little further with foil inductors, "more exotic" caps on the tweeter, etc. Where there is a notch filter, JB caps and the USCoil inductors will likely be used, as it's mentioned the sonic benefit for exotic stuff on a notch filter isn't to be found.
So, I'm gonna throw some of the best stuff out there at this speaker. I really, really like the Dynaudio Esotar tweeter... and I do plan to keep these speakers.
And then... when I put a 100Hz bypass on them and blend them with my subs... and the other "Special Thing" I haven't gotten into in more detail about, yet. :thumb: Very much looking forward to playing with these!
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Duelund has some fairly new polypropylene caps... Duelund Cast PP.
Crossover parts on the way... all Duelund Cast PP caps and Duelund resistors, including Duelund CAST PIO bypass caps. Also using copper foil inductors.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=262585&size=xlarge)
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Figuring out layout with Frederick...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263022&size=large)
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The boards are bigger than initial sizing...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263143&size=large)
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Duelund has some fairly new polypropylene caps... Duelund Cast PP.
Crossover parts on the way... all Duelund Cast PP caps and Duelund resistors, including Duelund CAST PIO bypass caps. Also using copper foil inductors.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=262585&size=xlarge)
For some reason those speakers look like they should have Deuland parts.
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For some reason those speakers look like they should have Deuland parts.
I have another speaker that I couldn't pass up buying recently... Odyssey Lorelei. It uses the same 8545 woofer as in the VSM but a different tweeter - Scan-Speak D2905-970000. The cabinet is bigger than the VSM, crossover is different (but has HIGH quality parts)... and it outputs MUCH more bass than the VSM. The 8545 can output huge bass, not just for its size - but actual big bass. I'm looking forward to hearing that better low end balance with this new VSM crossover.
It seems it can hard to have your cake and eat it too with a woofer for 2-way design... good low end response AND smooth thru the midrange. Danny fixed the issue the 8545 has around 700Hz and made it behave - so I should have both extension AND midrange from the 8545. Seeing that result from the design, and being so happy with the job Danny did my Wilson Audio Duette, I am spending 2X money on the crossover for the VSM, and it has fewer parts than the Duette. Right now I am breaking in a second set of crossovers for the Duette (a friend has other set of burned in crossovers) so I am hearing a direct comparison to "fresh" vs "broken in" crossover parts for the same crossover design, same speaker, same parts. I was also using Duelund JDM bypass caps on the other Duette crossover (which I sold to my friend). For the Duette right now I have some little JB Bypass caps...so that is one difference between them. I definitely prefer the sound of the broken in crossovers with Duelund bypass caps. Hearing how transformative this can be, I went "more Duelund" / All for the VSM and spent the money.
Depending on how this works out I may end up building another set of crossovers for the Duette using better parts, like in the VSM. There is definitely a lot going on with "parts" and I am a believer thru experience.
Here is the Odyssey Lorelei next to the Duette:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263159&size=small)
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I have another speaker that I couldn't pass up buying recently... Odyssey Lorelei. It uses the same 8545 woofer as in the VSM but a different tweeter - Scan-Speak D2905-970000. The cabinet is bigger than the VSM, crossover is different (but has HIGH quality parts)... and it outputs MUCH more bass than the VSM. The 8545 can output huge bass, not just for its size - but actual big bass. I'm looking forward to hearing that better low end balance with this new VSM crossover.
It seems it can hard to have your cake and eat it too with a woofer for 2-way design... good low end response AND smooth thru the midrange. Danny fixed the issue the 8545 has around 700Hz and made it behave - so I should have both extension AND midrange from the 8545. Seeing that result from the design, and being so happy with the job Danny did my Wilson Audio Duette, I am spending 2X money on the crossover for the VSM, and it has fewer parts than the Duette. Right now I am breaking in a second set of crossovers for the Duette (a friend has other set of burned in crossovers) so I am hearing a direct comparison to "fresh" vs "broken in" crossover parts for the same crossover design, same speaker, same parts. I was also using Duelund JDM bypass caps on the other Duette crossover (which I sold to my friend). For the Duette right now I have some little JB Bypass caps...so that is one difference between them. I definitely prefer the sound of the broken in crossovers with Duelund bypass caps. Hearing how transformative this can be, I went "more Duelund" / All for the VSM and spent the money.
Depending on how this works out I may end up building another set of crossovers for the Duette using better parts, like in the VSM. There is definitely a lot going on with "parts" and I am a believer thru experience.
Here is the Odyssey Lorelei next to the Duette:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263159&size=small)
How many sets of speakers do you have? I have duelands bypassing on my NX-Otica's being built. I wish I would have gotten Deuland resistors instead of path but they are much larger and harder to fit in the design.
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How many sets of speakers do you have?
Not enough.
I have duelands bypassing on my NX-Otica's being built. I wish I would have gotten Deuland resistors instead of path but they are much larger and harder to fit in the design.
Merlin VSM crossover under construction by Frederick...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263164&size=medium)
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Frederick did a great job on these!
- Duelund CAST PP Capacitors
- Duelund CAST Resistors
- Goertz Copper Foil Inductors
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263207&size=medium)
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Nice. Looks like industrial art.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263183&size=small)
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That looks very cool. Are you going to display the crossover somehow so they can be seen?
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That looks very cool. Are you going to display the crossover somehow so they can be seen?
Yes, I'm going to put vertical trim around them and install 3D printed tube connector mounts to the board.
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Well, I received the crossovers last Friday and hooked one speaker up... playing Mono from my RME ADI-2/4 Pro. The other VSM enclosure showed up yesterday and I quickly got it wired up. It's a science project right now, but I HAD to hear how the pair sounded, since just the one sounded so good... the tone was already there.
I am blown away with a few things - but not surprised, necessarily. Recently I'd picked up a pair of Odyssey Lorelei speakers. The price was "if I don't buy this I'm losing money"... so I bought them. But for a reason too... they are a floorstanding speaker with the 8545 woofer (same as the VSM), and a different Scan-Speak tweeter. Really good parts are in the crossover too - Sonicap, Goertz, etc. What shocked me (and the owner mentioned it) was the amount of bass from the Lorelei. It made me even more excited to hear what the VSM would sound like with more balance to the low end.
It has not disappointed. The bass in the VSM is now HUGE... visceral - but still balanced from top to bottom. The midrange is rich... so much so that you figure it must not have top end sparkle... but then it does and it makes you think "Wow." The other thing that is a revelation is "Parts". I should note, the parts I'm using in this crossover are definitely a step up from what I used in the Wilson Duette. The Duette crossovers have Sonicap on the tweeter network, JB cap for woofer, air coil copper inductors. Those are good parts! For the Merlin... these Duelund parts / copper foil inductors already sound SO musical. They already sound like what the Duette needed several hundred hours to get to. I spent well north of $1k on parts for the VSM crossovers... I'd have to total it up. I would spend the money again, for sure. In fact, when I play with more speakers, the Duelund CAST PP, the Duelund CAST resistors, and copper foil inductors are probably my new baseline for what I'd use... until I hear something else and like it better. :thumb:
If you want to use Duelund or some other parts, you can just tell Danny and Hobbs what you plan to do. Or, do the build he has a receipe for. I am sure the Sonicap setup is great too, but there is a difference between Sonicap and Duelund. It's possible the Sonicap is more to your liking / pairs better with your gear. This is the 3rd pair of crossovers I've started the burn-in process for, since December. Twice on the Duette, and now the VSM. Parts Matter. I am absolutely thrilled with how this is turning out. I have a plan for how I'm going to finish off the crossovers, but it will be a struggle to disconnect them to do it!
This was not hard to do and doesn't require a permanent mod to the speaker. The removable rear panel makes this easy. If you need help, reach out to me. I'm glad to help with a few tips once you pull the rear panel / crossover.
It's really cool when you go thru a lot of effort and expense... and it works out even better than you could have hoped for. I'm having a lot of fun.
Thank you, Danny.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=263530&size=large)
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Very cool!
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VSM's were already pretty good speakers, sounds like they are now world-class speakers after the upgrade.