[ZLS]

  If a frog is at the botom of a ten foot deep well and each time it jumps it jumps half the distance to the top; how many jumps will it take to reach the top?  (You will have to wait to the end for the answer, I am trying to make a point!) 
    I have managed to purchase the new Omega (Sub)Woofer.  It is in teak the matches my Omega XRS Dipoles and looks beautiful.  It is up to the status  of Louis's other speakers, which is high praise indeed.  It consists of the proprietary HempTone Woofer.  While I do not know any of the technical details (perhaps Louis can enlighten us) what I do know is that the woofer is extremely fast and tuneful.  What it's major effect on the music coming out of my main speakers, however, has caught me totally by surprise.  I welcome any help from those Omega Speaker owners who also use a separate (sub)woofer. 
    The use of the woofer has made the sound coming out of my main speakers fuller and less strident.  What absolutely baffles me is that I would never describe the sound coming out of my Dipole XRS's  in any way shape or form as strident.  I would describe the sound as warm, mellow, rich, full, harmonically complex, anything but strident.  So how can the addition of a woofer make me describe the sound as having less of something that I never noticed before?  I use a very light hand with the controls of the woofer It is powered BTW , but a minimalist approach is all that is needed. 
    Once again, if you already enjoy the sound of Omega Loudspeakers, than you like then even more with the addition of the woofer. 
    The answer to the riddle that began all of this is never.  The distance will keep getting smaller and smaller, but it will never become zero. 
    What is the relevance of a frog on the Omega forum, simple.  If Louis keeps building better and better Speakers, when will he build the perfect speaker?  I would put my money on Louis rather than that stupid frog!

[rajacat]

Zack,

Some more details please! What size is the driver(s)? What type of amp? Box, tube or open baffle? How about some photos of your Dipoles and the new sub together.

Raj

[DaveC113]

Yes, pics and specs would be great. 

I have (non-dipole  ) XRS speakers and an Adire 10" xbl^2 sub in a sealed box. Its not perfect, but its good enough you easily forget its there. It changes the way you percieve the other frequencies, they are somehow "carried" by the bass. When its turned off the high frequencies seem emphasized and it takes a minute to get used to. 

Dave

[ikakenewa]

This to me is very interesting.

After a recent listening test I concluded with dismay that my hemp XRS's just were too, yep, *strident* for my tastes. I've posted once or twice since I bought them in January to this effect--How to calm the flyaway high end?--and received responses mostly in the "wait 'til they break in" vein. 

Six months and innumerable listening/breaking in hours later I *still* find the XRS's incredibly detailed, gorgeous to look at, wonderful conversation pieces and, man, in this day in age if you call Omega who will you talk to but Louis C, the head honcho--how awesome is that!?!? In truth everything about Omega flies in the face of anonymous, run-you-round the block mega-corps and for these reasons I have nothing but GREAT things to say about Omega.

Still, as Pee Wee Herman once said, everybody has a big but. Here's mine: the XRS's are still too sharp in the high end (way too sharp in some instances) for me and I still find the bass well defined and tuneful but completely unable to move even the tiniest amount of air.  I am sure that someone will be able to claim that the single driver and port in fact *does* go down to whatever Hz, but at the end of the day...the speakers just don't bump and I literally cannot listen to a measurable percentage of my cd/lp collections because of this shrill, knife-in-the-ear high end.

I've even--GASP!--been researching new speakers, some with...CROSSOVERS!

But how nice would it be to spend some dough on an Omega woofer instead? Might it drain something from the hemp driver that's causing the overdriven high end? A total newboid question but my experience with subwoofers is limited to my Tivoli set-up...

Seriously, this might save my having to move into high gear in an attempt to sell these and I await any responses with interest.

Ika

[miklorsmith]

Might you use a Squeezebox for a source?

[rajacat]

Ika,

Perhaps the implementation of a BSC (baffle step correction) circuit with your XRS's might help cure the stridency. Also a tube amp/preamp might help. I found that you need to pay close attention to all of the components in your system in order to achieve the proper balance for the Omegas to perform their magic.

Raj

[ikakenewa]

Guys, thanks for the responses.

Miklorsmith, how would a Squeezebox help?

Rajacat, I've driven the XRS's with a Super T, a Sansui ss amp, Fisher 30a el84 monoblocs, a modded Harman Kardon A300 tube amp, a modded Dynaco ST70 and a Carver TMC with a variety of preamps, from a NAD to a Foreplay to an Aikido-based preamp with 5687 tubes. I recently took the speakers to a hi fi dealer here in Baltimore and tried them out with a Cayin a50t and a Rega Apollo on the front end.  The results were much the same as with all the rest: mindblowing and perfect on some cds, painful on others.

The one constant has pretty much been the 5687 preamp.  To my ears there is not a substantial difference when I remove the preamp.

How exactly does one go about making a BSC?

Would love to rectify these problems...

[rajacat]

Check this thread out. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=31582.0

Raj

[miklorsmith]

It sounds like you don't use one.

The Squeezebox has a room-correction plugin called Inguz.  Inguz has a little-known feature - a semi-parametric EQ.  Figure out where the center of the problem is using test tones, drop that by 3 db and let your jaw hit the floor.  You could bump the bass a little too.  I'm guessing those hemp drivers are pretty burly and could take it.

The beauty is it's all done in the mystical digital realm before the signal ever hits the analog domain.  And, no additional processing/clocking like you'd have with an external box.  There is no loss of efficiency and no additional circuitry.  It's freaking genius.

If you don't use a SB, this obviously won't help. 

[rajacat]

Hmmm....I think that I'll download Inguz too! I must get a sound level meter also.

Raj

[miklorsmith]

Even without an SPL meter you can tell what your ears are saying.  I LOVE this feature.  The actual room EQ is really complex but the EQ is a piece of cake to use.  Use it for ported speakers to lower output a little at the port frequency.  Use it for sealed boxes to get them to punch a little deeper.  Use it for single drivers to chill out the peakiness.

Literally everyone that can should check it out.  That is unless you're one of the 11 rooms in existance that has perfect in-room response.

[ikakenewa]

Squeezebox sounds pretty cool.

Still, I must say there remains something essential to me about the tactility of holding a cd or lp. Plus early on in the computer era I grew tired of filling up my hard drive space with ripped cds and grew even more tired of listening to them on my craptastic computer speakers, and the Squeezebox seems to be too close for comfort to to that era.

Of course the streaming radio and onboard eq sound awesome, especially right now as my ears is bleedin', but methinks the SBox will have to wait.

ANYHOO, back to the Omega sub: are there any electronical reasons the sub's helping with ZLS's stridency? Or is it more of the audiophile's subjective response? I seriously am at the end of the rope with the XRS's: Rajacat, please help me help the XRS's to perform their magic! I want to believe!

[DaveC113]

Ika,

I'd try a sub, I don't think I could live with the XRS without one for a lot of what I listen to (also, I am a bass player). I have also noticed that the XRS reveal flaws in poorly recorded music. I'm not sure if other speakers will be better without trading off good qualities. Bela Fleck CDs are pretty awesome on the XRS though .

As far as break in, were you getting maximum excursion on the drivers while you break them in? I was afraid I might damage them, but I figured they weren't fully listenable out of the box so it was a do-or-die process  I'd crank them up until they were obviously overdriven, then back off a little. After many days of playing them at maximum volume whenever I left the house they started to really come together. I also found tracks that had very low, extended bass frequencies that are really demanding and left them on repeat. I used a pre with tone controls and the bass maxed out, the treble minimized. I could easily hear improvements every day I did this. I agree that the XRS were strident, even painful on some material, but this has resolved itsself after I abused them enough 

Anyhow, I really enjoy listening to the XRS so I hope you figure out something that works for you!

The SB sounds nice, I need to look into that... 

[bprice2]

This is an interesting thread.

I own a pair of Omega Super 3 Bipoles with the hemp drivers. I use a Bolder modded SB3 plugged directly into an RWA Signature 30 amplifier.  I also use a Martin Logan Dynamo subwoofer. 

I am quite aware of the term "strident" being used here.  I've been calling it "brightness", or "ringing."  I'm not sure what the correct technical term is, but the way the word "strident" is being used here seems to describe what I have heard in my system.  It is more apparent on poorly recorded tracks, but it also presents itself when a certain pitch is reproduced, usually in a vocal (female) or with an electric guitar.  When it strikes it is quite unpleasant.

I have however made progress.  First, switching from a NAD SS receiver to the Sig 30 helped somewhat.  Then moving from the fostex drivers to the hemps made an even greater improvement.  The little bit of room treatment I've done has also helped.  The thing is, its still there.  It just shows itself less often.

I tried the Inguz plug-in.  It helped, but it also had some side effects I didn't care for.  These problems I think will eventually be resolved, but I just couldn't live with the pop and crack sounds between tracks and the buffering "ghost" sound coming through the speakers (sometimes I could actually hear another track being played behind the one I was listening to). 

I recently had the opportunity to listen to a fellow ACer's system.  His bass was much more prevalent than mine.  That, and a comment from one the AC manufactures regarding his perception that my speakers are bass-shy got me thinking.  I decided that maybe my subwoofer was not tuned in and placed as well as it could be.  After mixing in a little bit more of the sub to take over an extra 15 Hz or so, adjusting the volume higher, and bringing the sub physically closer and more between the speakers, I got some really positive results.  First, the bass in my system really sounds quite impressive.  The changes I made really helped integrate better with the speakers.  Second, the ringing?, brightness?, stridency? has also improved.  As a matter of fact, I'm not sure I've heard any fore-mentioned unpleasantness since I made the change this past weekend.

Anyway, my point is not to bash the Omegas.  In fact there are so many things that I love about these speakers, including their ability to rip emotion straight out of my gut.  I'm merely affirming that I too have experienced some of the things mentioned in this thread.

[miklorsmith]

I tried the Inguz plug-in.  It helped, but it also had some side effects I didn't care for.  These problems I think will eventually be resolved, but I just couldn't live with the pop and crack sounds between tracks and the buffering "ghost" sound coming through the speakers (sometimes I could actually hear another track being played behind the one I was listening to).

Interesting, I hadn't heard that.  Were you using just the graphic/parametric EQ function, or the whole caboodle?  I haven't heard the issues you describe with the EQ.  BTW, the standalone EQ is WAY less processing than the DRC processor needed for room correction.

[bprice2]

Interesting, I hadn't heard that.  Were you using just the graphic/parametric EQ function, or the whole caboodle?  I haven't heard the issues you describe with the EQ.  BTW, the standalone EQ is WAY less processing than the DRC processor needed for room correction.

Just the EQ. 

[ikakenewa]

Yeah, as far as break-in went (goes?), I had 'em hooked up to a monstrous old Sansui and had freaking MASTODON on repeat. Put the speakers face to face out of phase, created a hilarious cocoon made out of sofa cushions and blankets and got the h-e-double hockey sticks out of there. After 50 or so hours of Mastodon I put on the dub remix of Burning SPear's Marcus Garvey cd, let it run for another 20 to thirty hours.

I'd say the drivers were doing some moving.

I thought I was finished with break in and hooked 'em up to my flea power system. Things just never gelled through the bunches of amp/pre combos I tried so I sent them back to the basement and the diabolical Sansui for more intensive excursion (ouch!).

For the past two weeks I've been listening to them LOUD through this piece of junk Carver amp that is nothing if not loud--150 wpc. Right now Dead Europe '72 is cranking--hello Ramblin Rose--but this setup really was the straw that broke the camel's back. The mellow, recorded live to tape in big halls without audiences Dead cd is among the handfull that sound great (forget about the remixed version of Laurie ANderson's Big Science which is slicingly sibilant), and combined with some recent posts about using more powerful amps with the XRS's I decided to look into buying a beefier tube amp. A friend who remarked about the speakers' stridency and lack of bass punch called me out on it: you're not wild about some elements of your speakers so you're buying a new amp? He was right. That makes zero sense to me. 

I genuinely believe in the importance of break-in but I truly don't think that's the problem anymore.  Ergo my somewhat depressed state: everyone argues patience but I think that at a certain point one reaches a stage in advanced audifoolia where one realizes something will work or not. I am almost there with the XRS's, unforch. They are obviously a superior loudspeaker system but perhaps are too finicky for my tastes. (Dave, you'll be interested to hear I'm a drummer: insert joke about lack of taste here!) Actually, my sensitivity to high frequencies could be at the root of my continued discomfort with the XRS's; I've been playing the drums since I was 5 and I turn 40 this weekend. I've never had tinnitus and actually still have very good hearing, but a lifetime of exposure to crashing Zildjians and blaring Ampegs has probably done something to the old ears, and it could be that the XRS's emphasis on crystal clarity is, to my ears, more disturbing than it might be to others'.

I've just read BPrice's post and I must be clear: in no way am I bashing these beautiful speakers. I've written before about how much I admire Louis and his dedication to his art.  The XRS's *are* incredibly demanding, imo, and as many posters on this forum have written, it's obvious that to some ears the speakers are as close to nirvana as one can get. I must also admit that these are the first "high end" speakers I've ever bought, so perhaps my ears haven't been properly attuned to other speakers out there.

Again, the SBox sounds really great but it defies logic to replace sources when it seems more likely that it's the speakers causing the primary issues. 

Do you hear a reduction in these slicing high ends when you activate the sub? Which ones are y'all using?

[miklorsmith]

What you're hearing is an in-room frequency anomaly.  It might be in the speakers themselves and it might be the speaker/room coupling.  Frankly, whichever it is doesn't matter.  EQ can fix what you're hearing.  The problem is proper implementation.  The Inguz solution is the most elegant I've found, but it doesn't sound perfect.

Go find my thread on the Slimdevices forum and tell those clowns to do a proper parametric as STANDARD fare in the software.  Please.

[ZLS]

  I realize now, that in my initial post I made two errors. 
    The first is that I forgot that i had removed the silicon ring from my 4 1/2" HempTone Drivers.  I found it made a big difference in reducing the intensity of the highend.  Mr. Ikakenewa, I would urge you to try this before you throw in the towel on the XRS's.  While removing the silicon is an easy task, I am in no way shape or form describe how to go about it.  Louis should be the one to do so.  I will say that prior to the removal of the silicon I found the speakers to sound best with a Baffle Correction Circuit, and after the removal of the silicon the same circuit made the drivers sound muffled and dead.  I do stand behind my statement that the HempTones thrive on power. 
The second error I made is in using the word "Strident" in any way shape or form.  I went out of my way not to call the HempTone 4 1/2" Driver strident but to no avail.  I therefore beg everyone indulgence and wish to restate my original premise.  The Omega Hemptone Subwoofer makes the other Omega Speakers fuller sounding; it changes their voicing.  This change to my ears is a positive thing. 
    Gentlemen, you can now proceed with your previous discussion. 
                 Thank you for listening

[Louis O]

Hi ZLS,

Many thanks for posting about the new subwoofer. You’re correct about writing the word sub woofer the way you do because goes down to the mid 20Hz region and not to 20Hz. I’m so happy you’re enjoying the combo and how it enhances the overall sound.

I used to be a sub hater and never found the right sub to mate with the speakers. The old recommended sub page from the old site had nothing on it. I finally decided to have a hemp sub driver made and it’s specific to reproducing bass and nothing else. I then decided it had to be very fast. The result is a critically aligned sealed box and the new 8” Deephemp driver. The sub is very fast goes deep and the cabinet is dead quiet. I also tried it with a set of Lowther PM2As (custom order) in a sealed box for the Pass First watt amp. The sub stayed with this combo too. The sub will be available in all the finishes I offer and look great matched. I will also have a special to AC and Omega customers. The sub is $900 on special in any of the finishes and I will have combos too. I do have pics and need Vinnies help to post them.


I do believe what ZLS is talking about is balance and the ability of the system to play any CDs, records, etc. The added bass enhances the balance and also improves the soundstaging. The sub really disappears. The XRSs can be hard on badly recorded music and I believe them to be very accurate and reveal everything on the recording. When I developed the hemp driver I my goal was to have the smoothest sounding single driver, but also wanted them to be accurate and reveal everything on the recording as well as not being finicky. They can handle a lot of abuse and higher-powered amps and play cleanly.

A change has been made to the 4.5 hempcone and it’s a good time to post about it. This is something that can be done in 2 minutes and requires the removal of an elastic ring embedded in the surround. The surround has a valley right before the cone itself. If the elastic is in the valley of the surround (I have been removing them here recently) you need to peel it out. You can tell its there if this area is shiny black. It’s very easy to remove and just peels away. This will open up the driver to move more air. The ring has restricted the ability of the suspension to move.

Hi ikakenewa,

I thank you greatly for your kind words and also posting about this so we can get to the bottom of the problem. Not moving air is a bad thing and I have a suspicion your suspensions are overly stiff. This will tilt the drivers up in the range. Please call me at 203.847.2800 so we can over a driver swap. No break in on these either. I have my personal set of XRSs out near 4 feet of the back wall and not a problem at all. I use a Sig 30 for SS and various tube amps.

FYI regarding tube amps. The Quicksilver’s are an amazing match.

Hi miklorsmith,

I know the squeezebox very well through Vinnie and it’s a great piece. The EQ is handy and I never knew about this feature. I would think it would be great for room correction.

Hi Raja and Dave,

A lot more about the sub will be on the site very soon. I have to build a few more in different finishes.

Some specs:

8” Deephemp driver
Critically sealed box .577
Downfiring driver
Quiet cabinet construction multilayer walls and sealed amplifier
Variable phase
Steep low pass filter
220-watt amp with linear power supply
Goes down to 26Hz
Weighs 50 pounds

The sub adds bass and blends in seamlessly.

Thanks again,
Louis