AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Danny Richie on 9 Nov 2010, 05:27 pm
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Here is your chance to learn something.
This is for all the objectivist that think parts are parts, wire is wire, all capacitors are the same, yadda, yadda, yadda....
This is a continuation of this thread regarding the upgrading of parts quality in this inexpensive little speaker from Behringer.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=83841.0
It is the B2031P "The truth!" The real truth was that it needed some help. Follow the thread:
(http://www.parts-express.com/data/default/images/catalog/240/248-6042_HR_0.jpg)
Read about the speaker here: http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/B2031P.aspx
Okay, I measured the values used in one of the stock crossovers and made an identical crossover to the stock one using Sonicaps, a Mills resistor and an Erse XQ air core inductor.
(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/crossovers.jpg)
One main switch is used to switch the shunt components in or out of the circuit from each network being used or not used. I later added a switch in each woofer circuit of each network to switch each entire circuit in or out.
The crossover are mounted inside and the three switches are mounted on the binding post cup.
As you can see the cabinets have also been lined with No Rez to remove some of the coloration of the cabinet resonances that were masking some of the bass and lower mid-range. Some additional fiberglass insolation was used as well and install behind the woofer.
(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/inside.jpg)
There are tube connectors used for the upgraded network and the stock binding post are used for the stock network.
All switches up towards the stock binding post, and the stock binding posts and stock crossover is used. All switches down, and the lower tube connectors are used with the higher quality crossover parts.
I also had my good friends at Electra Cable make a nice set of speaker cables with dual ends. It has standard banana plugs for the stock crossover and the male studs that fit the tube connectors.
So you use one set of plugs or the other and not both at the same time. So switching is pretty quick. Move some connectors form one to the other and flick three switches.
See Electra Cable tube connectors here: http://www.electracable.com/tubeconnector.htm
The cables and crossover have been playing now for several weeks and have now settle in. That's right, they needed burn in time.
The difference between the two networks is very apparent (night and day), so if the nay sayers can't hear this level of differences then they probably really should consider hobbies outside of high end audio.
I am willing to let these be sent all over the country to various listening groups. Someone receiving them must be responsible for them though. So whoever that person is will need to contact me with credit card information needed for securing them while they have them.
The next person or group in line will need to contact me to do the same.
I will then forward shipping information to whoever has them and they (or that group) will be responsible for shipping them to the next auditioning person or group.
Let the fun begin!
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Now this will be fun to read!
How do YOU think they sound?
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Now this will be fun to read!
How do YOU think they sound?
They are fairly well balanced as the frequency response shows. Nothing glares out as bad.
The drawbacks are that big poly woofer lacks resolution in the vocal region. It has that plasticy sound about it that is a bit un-natural. Bass is kind of boxy sounding at times and a little heavy, but much better than it was stock. Stuffing the ports might help with some music, but for now, they are left open. The square shaped box is not helping matters in that regard either. Not something that I would buy, but then again, they are dirt cheap.
I have to thank Rich Hollis for donating this pair. Hopefully someone might want to keep them in the end and maybe Rich and I can break even on the cost of this education process.
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Here is a pic of the back.
(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/behringerback.jpg)
And here is the custom made, 10 foot long pair of cables from Electra Cable.
(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/specialcable.jpg)
I figured it would be better if the speakers were at least not being held back by zip cord speaker cables. The bummer is that the cables cost more than the speakers. :lol:
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Wow, excellent In yo face to all the naysayers. glad to see this wasn't a forgotten endeavor.
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Okay, I measured the values used in one of the stock crossovers and made an identical crossover to the stock one using Sonicaps, a Mills resistor and an Erse XQ air core inductor.
Just a quick glance shows that the DCR of the new inductor is likely to be different from that of the old, plus we don't know if the inductor Behringer used was even properly spec'ed, or whether it saturated under load because they skimped on it. In other words, the new crossover is not identical to the old.
You may very well have turned a sow's ear into a silk purse. I don't know whether you did or not. However, I don't see that you've made your point.
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The DCR of the smaller gauge iron core inductor (stock) and the 16 gauge Erse XQ is pretty close.
When measuring a speaker an increase in DCR shows up in the frequency response as decreased output in the bottom end. These two measure pretty much identical.
However, I don't see that you've made your point.
I think the point will be made when people listen for themselves.
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When people say they can't hear the difference in parts or wire quality, I believe them! They cannot hear the difference.
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When people say they can't hear the difference in parts or wire quality, I believe them! They cannot hear the difference.
Yep, that's true. That same guy might even think that the guy setting next to them, that says he can hear the difference, is out of his mind.
I think the real problem is that when people hear no difference and conclude that "there is no difference" verses "I heard no difference".
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The DCR of the smaller gauge iron core inductor (stock) and the 16 gauge Erse XQ is pretty close.
When measuring a speaker an increase in DCR shows up in the frequency response as decreased output in the bottom end. These two measure pretty much identical.
I think the point will be made when people listen for themselves.
ONLY if the listener's head isn't as squeeky clean as his ears always are. There's gotta be something in there that's willing to hear a difference or are willing to accept the chance that others are hearing a difference in the 1st place. :D
I've tried them and so have lots of other people. Clean ears are happy ears.
Cheers,
Robin
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I think the point will be made when people listen for themselves.
Well, no. But that's ok too.
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Danny,
Did you ever have the chance to take measurements of the power response with both the stock and upgraded? I would love to see these with on-axis, 15, 30, 45 degrees.
Thanks.
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Now this is really getting interesting! :thumb:
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Danny,
Did you ever have the chance to take measurements of the power response with both the stock and upgraded? I would love to see these with on-axis, 15, 30, 45 degrees.
Thanks.
Vertical and horizontal off axis measurments were posted in that first thread. The upgraded crossover did not change any of that.
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Very nice experiment!
I have a couple questions:
Would you say that the original components were appropriate for the job? It sounds like they were not since the performance could be improved.
If you were to use the original components (providing they are appropriate for the job), could you make a superior circuit with only them that could out-perform your new crossover using the original circuit, but with better components?
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Very nice experiment!
I have a couple questions:
Would you say that the original components were appropriate for the job? It sounds like they were not since the performance could be improved.
If you were to use the original components (providing they are appropriate for the job), could you make a superior circuit with only them that could out-perform your new crossover using the original circuit, but with better components?
You need to read the original thread.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=83233.0
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I see..
There are undoubtedly cheap parts on the market and replacing inferior components will make a difference much of the time.
There's really no argument regarding the original thread. If the parts were no good for the job, but just good enough to get the speaker to market- replacing them seems like a logical choice if you want a better product for a little extra money.
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The point is to show the audible difference between the stock and the better parts despite the fact that on paper they don't measure any different.
It's funny. Before I became a regular here I never really thought about upgrading the crossovers of a speaker yet it was hearing cable differences that got me into this hobby. Now I can't imagine having a speaker and not upgrading it. (Although the Monitor Audio Silver-RS6 is one of the best stock speakers I've heard for the money!)
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Now this is really getting interesting! :thumb:
Rich, I'm with you. Always interesting to see the lines in the sand.
Dave
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The stock parts were surmised as being inferior. Naturally a difference will be heard with better parts. This has nothing to do with "flat Earthers". Even a flat Earther would agree that inferior components, or components not designed for the job they are doing will not work well.
What if those components were not inferior? If this were the case, then the debate would be centered around which brand is better since quality is taken out of the equation.
The point is to show the audible difference between the stock and the better parts despite the fact that on paper they don't measure any different.
It's funny. Before I became a regular here I never really thought about upgrading the crossovers of a speaker yet it was hearing cable differences that got me into this hobby. Now I can't imagine having a speaker and not upgrading it. (Although the Monitor Audio Silver-RS6 is one of the best stock speakers I've heard for the money!)
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The stock parts were surmised as being inferior. Naturally a difference will be heard with better parts. This has nothing to do with "flat Earthers". Even a flat Earther would agree that inferior components, or components not designed for the job they are doing will not work well.
What if those components were not inferior? If this were the case, then the debate would be centered around which brand is better since quality is taken out of the equation.
You seem to miss the whole point :)
I think the point seems to be that the stock parts do not measure as being inferior, yet apparently they sound inferior.
That was the original arguement as far as I can tell.
PS, Danny, I got the Platinum caps today, thanks :)
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The stock parts were surmised as being inferior. Naturally a difference will be heard with better parts. This has nothing to do with "flat Earthers". Even a flat Earther would agree that inferior components, or components not designed for the job they are doing will not work well.
What if those components were not inferior? If this were the case, then the debate would be centered around which brand is better since quality is taken out of the equation.
From your thread on your circle: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=87799.msg860635;topicseen#new
There are inferior components and inferiors can provide the same values in a tester as a superior one. LCR meters ONLY test one value, they can not test how that part will react in a circuit.
People are getting things confused regarding component upgrades and not understanding precisely what I am saying.
First, you will always see an improvement in performance or at least longevity when the right part is used for the job. This is an undeniable fact.
Second, if you're using the proper quality parts for the job to begin with, replacing them with another brand that is the same quality or even better most likely will NOT make a difference. For a circuit to perform right, it has to have the correct components installed. If performance improves when parts are exchanged, that means the original parts were not right for the job. Do you see how I am looking at things?
Third, components are made for specific jobs. For example, a photoflash capacitor should not be used as a filter in a power supply. People do it, but it's unwise because they were not made for continuous duty. Yet, a 330uf flash cap will measure exactly the same as a 330uf filter capacitor on a LCR meter. This is a case where upgrading is clearly beneficial. I want to stress the word "clearly".
Fourth, as a continuation from above, I only want to provide upgrades that are clearly upgrades. I use parts that are perfect for their jobs in all stock units. They are not cheap spinoffs. In fact, I switched over to a new coupling capacitor a while back that's using the latest manufacturing processes. They actually became smaller because the internals are higher quality and the construction process was improved. They're a industrial/commercial product and I doubt they are stressed in the slightest as a coupling cap. No stress equates to a long lifespan AND quality sound.
I have experimented with Auricaps and Sprague Black Beauties. No audible differences were detected. Experimentation was not done on any others.
Circuit sensitivity: I will share something with you: Components like to be used under the ratings printed on their casing. This goes for wattage and voltage. If the circuit is, say putting 5 watts through a 5 watt resistor, this is not good. It is a good practice to use at least a 10 watt resistor in that scenario. If someone were to use a 15uf electrolytic in place of a Tantalum in a circuit, it will work, but it may not last long.
You will find that I am a stickler for using components of the proper composition for a specific job. Not everything is interchangeable, even if they have the same values. Folks, you are working yourselves up for nothing if you believe that all stock components from every manufacturer are inferior. This is not so! Please do not stereotype.
Are other manufacturers putting a load in your ear? ONLY if they are purposely using a $20.00 component in a location where a $5.00 one still exceeded the circuit parameters. Do you understand what I am saying? I am not talking about replacing an inferior component with a better one. You have to look at things from the circuit's standpoint and I doubt people are doing that. For example, if a circuit has 2 watt resistors in it and it's only sending 1/2 a watt through them, would it make any difference from a quality standpoint if they were replaced with 10 watt resistors? They're bigger and more expensive so it should better, right? Absolutely not. Sure, it may look impressive and will cost more but that's it.
The bottom line: You mentioned field reports that state marked improvements after upgrading components:
1] Are they replacing inferior components?
2] Are they replacing components initially well suited for their job?
What do you know as FACT about the components being removed?
I just find it strange that you find no difference with changing caps in anything. I wonder if your design is flawed and that's why you don't hear a difference. :dunno: I can say that the difference IME is night / day.
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I would notice a difference if the original parts were poorly made. It doesn't sound like you read the entire post.
I agree that parts can measure the same and act differently within a circuit. That is all explained in the post you quoted. For example, a capacitor of one specific value can be made several different ways to be compatible with different circuits.
I think what you are saying is this: Exchanging parts designed to do the same job perfectly will make a difference. Under this test, neither component is inferior, just different in some fashion.
Interesting link:
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/capacitors.htm
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Interesting link:
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/capacitors.htm
Sure, it's interesting if you think just like the author. I happen to appreciate opinions and subjectivity for in the end it is up to our individual brains to interpret what we are hearing and make a judgement.
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Did you read the original thread? The stipulation was that upgrading component "quality" would not affect the sound of the speaker (i.e. all parts are the same).
Bingo!
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I agree that parts can measure the same and act differently within a circuit.
If they act differently in the circuit, then they won't measure the same either, unless you stick with the simplest measurements.
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I would notice a difference if the original parts were poorly made. It doesn't sound like you read the entire post.
I agree that parts can measure the same and act differently within a circuit. That is all explained in the post you quoted. For example, a capacitor of one specific value can be made several different ways to be compatible with different circuits.
I think what you are saying is this: Exchanging parts designed to do the same job perfectly will make a difference. Under this test, neither component is inferior, just different in some fashion.
Interesting link:
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/capacitors.htm
Sounds like your mind set is that you look at this from the standpoint of the electrical parameters necessary for the circuit. That is not what this is about.
From an electrical standpoint there was nothing wrong with the stock crossover. At least there was nothing one would consider inferior for the job from an electrical point of view. The upgraded crossover made no change in measured responses or impedance.
However, the quality of the parts are quite different and the subjective differences between the two networks are very apparent. And we aren't just talking about "different". We are talking about "better". The result is reduced smearing (as in more space between notes), this also comes across as a lower noise floor. There is better resolution, better detail levels, cleaner vocals, and better imaging, etc.
The whole point is to give people the opportunity to hear these differences themselves. Some people claim that the use of these higher quality parts (boutique parts as they call them) will make no difference. This gives those people the opportunity to learn just how much difference it really does make.
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Danny,have run across any speaker designs where substituting better quality parts made no audible difference?
Scotty
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Pretty cool experiment Danny, nice job with the wiring making for quick and easy comparisons. I look forward to the listening results, hopefully from some open minded sceptics.
To the future listeners, remember that when evaluating caps it's the spatial cues that are more effected than tonality ... so for proper evaluation you need to be sitting in the sweet spot. That means listening tests need to be done with a small number of people in the room. I've seen too many similar listening tests where some people are 20 degrees off-axis, and predictably hear no differences.
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Danny,have run across any speaker designs where substituting better quality parts made no audible difference?
Scotty
In my system it is touch to find two different brands of parts that sound the same verses two that sound different.
Pretty cool experiment Danny, nice job with the wiring making for quick and easy comparisons. I look forward to the listening results, hopefully from some open minded sceptics.
To the future listeners, remember that when evaluating caps it's the spatial cues that are more effected than tonality ... so for proper evaluation you need to be sitting in the sweet spot. That means listening tests need to be done with a small number of people in the room. I've seen too many similar listening tests where some people are 20 degrees off-axis, and predictably hear no differences.
That is really good advice and 100% true.
One thing that I noted in that first thread about these speakers was that the imaging tended to stack everything between the two speakers and the image height was limited to the level of the speakers. Things that I was used to being at varying heights and distances in the sound stage weren't there. The speakers are now much better in that regard with the upgraded crossovers. Listeners will need to be in the sweet spot to get it.
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Listeners will need to be in the sweet spot to get it.
As you should always be for any type of critical listening IMO.
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So how do we get on the list?
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Danny,have run across any speaker designs where substituting better quality parts made no audible difference?
Scotty
Even poseidonsvoice (Anand) has heard an upgrade (to his ears) with the GedLee Abbey crossover that he did. Even though he says it was small it was still there according to him. Hopefully he'll chime in.
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jtwrace. I love how you have a Earl Geddes quote for a sig and are so tweaky. Also you really should drop either the Dr. or the PhD. Its redundant and nobody says their name like that.
So when we kill the chicken and spread the blood around the cables which direction sounds better, clockwise or counter?
Flat Earther
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Way to go Danny :thumb:
People can measure it, listen to it (experience) and come to their own conclusion - instead of concluding - there are no differences in wire, parts etc.
We have a member in our audio society club who says there is no difference in source either - hook an ipod or a high end source ... later he admitted that he can't hear the difference (due to some hearing loss) or that it is not worth the difference in price for him (he is a nice guy though ...)
As you said Danny - he can't hear the difference or he does not care to hear the difference vs. there is no difference ...
Perhaps the verbiage is there may not be significant differences and every person has their own idea of what significant is from 0% to 100%
Thanks for putting a project together for educating anyone who cares to be illuminated ...
Cheers
Sunil.
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Not sure if this has been mentioned already but subjective impressions don't really mean much unless you can consistently pick which is which in blind test.
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Not sure if this has been mentioned already but subjective impressions don't really mean much unless you can consistently pick which is which in blind test.
What if you don't want to do that and just want to enjoy listening to music? Then I'd say subjective impressions mean a lot.
Kind of like driving a car. Some cars just aren't comfortable to me. Regardless it will still get me from point A to point B. I would prefer a car and speaker that are comfortable to me.
It reminds me of a famous person's philosophy: "Good enough never is."
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sts.....you have already made up your mind it seems....if its that closed you prob wont hear a difference, even if there is one......human nature. We already know you think little of GR offerings from previous posts.....so you have a bias and it will stay that way......again, human nature.
Save your chicken and keep using Zip cord...if it makes you happy, then great.
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First stop is the San Francisco area (San Mateo). They are going out today.
For those that will eventually receive the speakers: Feel free to try out the speaker cables with your own speakers.
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sts.....you have already made up your mind it seems....if its that closed you prob wont hear a difference, even if there is one......human nature. We already know you think little of GR offerings from previous posts.....so you have a bias and it will stay that way......again, human nature.
Save your chicken and keep using Zip cord...if it makes you happy, then great.
things are not always what they seem. Anyway the reverse of that says you will hear a difference because you expect it. As far as my thoughts on GR you are incorrect. I currently use a GR servo sub and have owned AV1+ which I loved and only got rid of to hook a friend up. I also always recomend them to people I think I can push into this diseased state, because they are such a value.
Back on topic
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things are not always what they seem. Anyway the reverse of that says you will hear a difference because you expect it. As far as my thoughts on GR you are incorrect. I currently use a GR servo sub and have owned AV1+ which I loved and only got rid of to hook a friend up. I also always recomend them to people I think I can push into this diseased state, because they are such a value.
Back on topic
And thank you. I appreciate that.
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What if you don't want to do that and just want to enjoy listening to music? Then I'd say subjective impressions mean a lot.
Kind of like driving a car. Some cars just aren't comfortable. Regardless it will still get you from point A to point B. I would prefer a car and speaker that are comfortable to me.
I think you misread my post, I didn't say that subjective impressions mean nothing, quite the contrary.
Yes, if you subjectively enjoy one crossover configuration more than the other then you should be able to pick which is which in a blind test. Otherwise your subjective impressions don't really mean much.
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things are not always what they seem. Anyway the reverse of that says you will hear a difference because you expect it.
I can buy that.......so its subjective. You hear it if you want and dont if you want.
With that kind of reasoning then nobody should have different observations than what is expected.
It will be interesting to see what the concensus is.
To see if it changes peoples opinion one way or the other.
This should be a cool roadshow.....too bad I'm too far away......damn shipping costs.
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jtwrace. I love how you have a Earl Geddes quote for a sig and are so tweaky. Also you really should drop either the Dr. or the PhD. Its redundant and nobody says their name like that.
This is one if the funnier thing I've read on Audiocircle!! :lol:
Jim
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I was thinking the same thing - non-medical doctors are supposed to use Mickey Mouse, Ph.D, not Dr. Mickey Mouse.
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Vertical and horizontal off axis measurments were posted in that first thread. The upgraded crossover did not change any of that.
Hi Danny,
I hope all is well. This is a very interesting topic and I'd like to learn from this as well. Quick question - if the upgraded crossover didn't change the measurements from the stock, then how is it better in terms of sound? How can the fix(es) (from stock to upgraded x-overs) be validated if it cannot be measured? This is one of the foundations of math and science, no?
Also, for the ones who evaluate the speakers, how do we know if someone who's stating that there's a big difference that there's nothing wrong with his/her hearing? My hearing for instance (I'm 29 years old), can be better or inferior than the person next to me listening on the same speaker in the same position, in the same room, taking turns. Thanks for reading and your time.
Christian
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Not sure if this has been mentioned already but subjective impressions don't really mean much unless you can consistently pick which is which in blind test.
Agreed.
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I was thinking the same thing - non-medical doctors are supposed to use Mickey Mouse, Ph.D, not Dr. Mickey Mouse.
You can use either one, but not normally both at the same time. Some people prefer one, some the other.
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Some people that don't expect to hear a difference may hear one.
Some people that do expect to hear a difference may not hear one.
Some people that are determined to hear a difference will hear one.
Some people that are determined to not hear a difference will not hear one.
This set of speakers is set up to make it as easy as possible.
As far as scientific verification... :duh: good grief, use your damn ears. :roll:
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Some people that don't expect to hear a difference may hear one.
Some people that do expect to hear a difference may not hear one.
Some people that are determined to hear a difference will hear one.
Some people that are determined to not hear a difference will not hear one.
This set of speakers is set up to make it as easy as possible.
As far as scientific verification... :duh: good grief, use your damn ears. :roll:
Now this gets a big :thumb: :thumb:
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Quick question - if the upgraded crossover didn't change the measurements from the stock, then how is it better in terms of sound?
Read post number 26 of this thread.
How can the fix(es) (from stock to upgraded x-overs) be validated if it cannot be measured? This is one of the foundations of math and science, no?
There are a lot of ways to measure inductors, capacitors, and resistors besides inductance, capacitance, and resistance.
Take capacitors for instance. There are a lot of variables that all have audible effects on the sound. And a lot of them can be measured. Things like dielectric absorption, dissipation factor, etc. Some things that are tougher to measure also have an effect. For instance, the thickness of the film verses the thickness of the conductive material. Sprayed on conductive material verses a rolled film. Then there is the type of dielectric material from polyester, to polypropylene, to Teflon. And all of those sound different.
You can make tons of changes like that without effecting the frequency response.
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if the upgraded crossover didn't change the measurements from the stock, then how is it better in terms of sound?
Christian
You have to listen to find out. :green:
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It seems that those who believe don't need to listen and those that don't believe don't want to listen... :duh: :scratch:
I'd like to question how good the measurements are if they don't reflect the reality of repeated listening experiences. I'm not saying that the measurements are not "good" or useful, but rather incomplete if they don't reflect experience. Science is after all an ongoing process. Not everything is known...
I know my doctor keeps telling me that symptoms that I have on a repeated basis are totally impossible. Yet the same causes have been giving the same effects for 15 years? Which of us is unscientific?
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Very exciting Danny. Some data is better than no data. This will certainly be more productive than interweb bickering.
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It seems that those who believe don't need to listen
:scratch:
I don't know where you got that from. I think those that believe aren't doing so blindly. They're saying "listen and you'll hear it" and the naysayers are saying they don't trust their senses.
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This has been an interesting read. People's perceptive abilities vary dramatically. Across all the senses no less! Perception of color, light & shadow, movement, taste, smell and touch. I do know that most of my family and friends are not careful listeners to music. The little things that I notice in a tune, the things that I find pleasing are completely lost on most of them. Decay, timbre & resonance perhaps describe some of them.
I've no doubt that there audible differences. And I'll bet there are measurable differences as well if we had the instrumentation and knew what it was we were looking for. The subtlety of our senses outstrips our science's ability to explain it.
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Just as a side to this, my experience with trying DIY parts upgrades in crossovers started in 1983 with my pair of Magneplanar MGIIB's. They came with Mylar (polyester) film caps in the XO's which were good for the time. After reading the Audio magazine article in 1980 about dielectric constant measurements in capacitors, I decided to try using polypropylene caps instead, as the dielectric constant was lower than Mylar. The difference is the sound was not subtle with matched value parts. The transient response of the speaker audibly improved to my hearing.
This is why I think it is important for folks to experience the difference in XO parts changes and why I gave the speakers to Danny to mod. Let the listening fun begin! :D
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I became a believer in cap upgrades when comparing the Virtue One to the Virtue Two amplifiers on the same system. The Virtue One uses an OEM cap and the Virtue Two uses auricaps. The auricaps sounded significantly better on my system, so much so that I didn't even bother with the idea that I had about a blind test. I recently got a Virtue Two.2 and installed Gen I sonicap with a Gen II bypass cap. You can definitely tell the difference between the auricaps and sonicaps. I am a skeptic by nature, so for me to throw out the necessity of a blind test is an impressive difference.
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:scratch:
I don't know where you got that from. I think those that believe aren't doing so blindly. They're saying "listen and you'll hear it" and the naysayers are saying they don't trust their senses.
I didn't see anyone asking to get the speakers sent to them...
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I didn't see anyone asking to get the speakers sent to them...
Oh, I see what you mean. On page 2 Danny mentioned shipping them to San Francisco. I guess the request was sent privately.
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Oh, I see what you mean. On page 2 Danny mentioned shipping them to San Francisco. I guess the request was sent privately.
Maybe this setup is heading to DanTheMan? If that's indeed the case, good luck with that. :roll: :lol:
Cheers,
Robin
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Oh, I see what you mean. On page 2 Danny mentioned shipping them to San Francisco. I guess the request was sent privately.
In any event you shouldn't pay too attention to what I said. :wink:
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Maybe this setup is heading to DanTheMan? If that's indeed the case, good luck with that. :roll: :lol:
Cheers,
Robin
Oh please no ...
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They went to Bob Walters.
If Dantheman wants to hear them they are there, but he would have to be on his best behavior if he wants to drop by, and that will be up to Bob.
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They went to Bob Walters.
If Dantheman wants to hear them they are there, but he would have to be on his best behavior if he wants to drop by, and that will be up to Bob.
I was totally working off your thread title with that thought,,,, :lol:
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Dan and I did arrange the shipment to the Bay Area privately. We had been in contact about this since the initial thread(s).
I meant to document the event in this thread and forgot. Sorry.
I represent BAAS, a local 300-member group of audiophiles and music-lovers.
I plan several small listening sessions locally, and hope to include both manufacturers and the press.
I will post logistical details of these gigs in the EVENTS tab of our blog (link below).
It should be great.
Bob
http://baasnotes.com/ (http://baasnotes.com/)
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And by Dan, he means me.
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Only wish these events were not so far away. This does sound like fun! :thumb:
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Dantheman spends all his time in that hillbilly forum Techtalk posting impulse graphs and pretending to be a wizened expert with copious experience with high end gear. He still thinks EQ is superior to room treatment. Nuff said? I think so.
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I know I am a little late getting my 2 cents in but after reading this and all the threads adjacent I wanted to say something.
The Ninja asks me to pick out the upgraded speaker every time he does something new. (New crossover upgraded parts, cabinet dampening upgrade, even potting the crossover once) I was not an "audiophile" until years after I met him and I had been hanging around many of you long enough to start appreciating the hobby. I can hear it, every time. I have not been wrong yet. (I SAID YET)
It is a blind test to see if I can tell a difference and which one sounds better. If I could not tell the difference of the upgraded speaker or be able to pick the upgraded speaker over the stock then we would not sell it (neither would Danny).
On another thread the question was asked why everyone had a different opinion of similar loudspeakers (rooms) at RMAF. Answer: Because like how we all see beauty (it is in the eye of the beholder and it cannot be quantified to another) we hear individually as well.
I think Danny's test is fantastic and if it comes to Colorado (maybe Skiing Ninja will make it so) I will listen to see if I can hear the difference without anyone telling me what i am listening to. I hope my streak remains.
Mrs. Ninja
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Hillbilly forum Techtalk
ohhhh snap...
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I think this is a great idea and hope to hear comments from all who manage to get the opportunity to listen.
I saw that this thread has been linked to over on a "science" forum, and the usual posters are pouncing all over it with the usual comments. Wish they would give it a chance, possibly even taking advantage of it to give a listen themselves before they come to a conclusion.
Oh well. Some things don't change. I'm firmly of the opinion that they sound different, I just have trouble deciding which is "best". :?
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I saw that this thread has been linked to over on a "science" forum, and the usual posters are pouncing all over it with the usual comments. Wish they would give it a chance, possibly even taking advantage of it to give a listen themselves before they come to a conclusion.
I feel sorry for those guys.
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"Science" who needs it.
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Dantheman spends all his time in that hillbilly forum Techtalk posting impulse graphs and pretending to be a wizened expert with copious experience with high end gear. He still thinks EQ is superior to room treatment. Nuff said? I think so.
TechTalk is populated by many that have NO clue about musical enjoyment being related to an emotional, qualitative response. Oh, yeah: guys that want to build a killer speaker for $1.98, too.
Go figure :duh:
Dave
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Bloodletting.....cutting edge science for its time........ :roll:
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Same goes for exorsism and voodoo.
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Back to the reductionist sound bites: 'science', 'voodoo', blah blah blah. Isn't 'science'(tm) required for any competent crossover design? Or does Danny stick needles in a jobu to make them work?
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Back to the reductionist sound bites: 'science', 'voodoo', blah blah blah. Isn't 'science'(tm) required for any competent crossover design? Or does Danny stick needles in a jobu to make them work?
It goes much deeper than that with the flat earthers. Back around 2001 a friend of mine did a test on my power cables and their effect on musical samples and measured differences in the waveforms of the samples. These tests used the source file as a subject and control and comparison in a DAW. Frame to frame, bit accurate synching was done to insure that their was no time slippage in the digital editing system that was used. There were easily visible and mathmatically quantifiable differences between the samples. Pretty much a no brainer. The result? Jan was accused of poor methodology (mostly by people without a clue as to the accuracy of modern digital editors) and of falsifying the data.
The flat earth, meter readers will ALWAYS find a problem with a test that offers proof that they are or even could be wrong. Far beit for them to ever actually try something and experiment to see (or hear) for themselves. It is much easier for them to be lazy and do nothing and certainly greater self indulgent ego gratification is achieved by calling others stupid or delusional. Elitists of every kind fall into this mindset. They are smarter than anyone else and they attempt to prove it by humiliating, degradating and slandering anyone with an opposing POV. That is why most of people with a brain don't frequent some sites on the 'net.
I like Audio Circle. There are people here that actually DO things :thumb:
Dave
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I find it funny that you use the word elitist and yet you and the title of the thread use mocking tones for people who do not agree with you. When you say "flat earther", "witch doctors " or "snake oil salesman" it's all the same tone.
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There is a certain class of "sciensy" people who hold science as dogma, mistakenly believing that science explains everything and who become close minded (which is a very unscientific state of mind). These people require that the world conform to their "scientific" view instead of requiring that science account for what experience produces.
A very interesting read on this subject, by a scientist, is The Structure of Scientific Revolution by Thomas Kuhn.
A quote that is pertinent :
"During the period of normal science, the failure of a result to conform to the paradigm is seen not as refuting the paradigm, but as the mistake of the researcher, contra Popper's falsifiability criterion. As anomalous results build up, science reaches a crisis, at which point a new paradigm, which subsumes the old results along with the anomalous results into one framework, is accepted. This is termed revolutionary science."
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Yes, there's a difference between a scientist's view and an engineer's view. Scientists explore what is possible, engineers apply what's already been discovered. The people here who claim to be "scientific" are actually basing their thinking on an engineering approach, not a scientific approach.
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I find it funny that you use the word elitist and yet you and the title of the thread use mocking tones for people who do not agree with you. When you say "flat earther", "witch doctors " or "snake oil salesman" it's all the same tone.
My points are that I don't profess to hold ultimate audio truth, and that I love learning new things. I am wrong about things occasionally and will readily admit to being so. The problem I have is with the elitist snobs that profess to hold all of the answers and everyone that does not agree with them is wrong, stupid or delusional. I have no problem with people in disagreement as long as they have a functional basis to draw upon other than "I read it in a book." I prefer to have discussions about a reality or possibility with those that have done their homework, that's all. I also admit to being an audio snob. It comes from over 45 years of doing, learning and teaching, not telling people they are wrong.
Dave
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Yes, there's a difference between a scientist's view and an engineer's view. Scientists explore what is possible, engineers apply what's already been discovered. The people here who claim to be "scientific" are actually basing their thinking on an engineering approach, not a scientific approach.
Wow, you have no idea what you are talking about...
This is awesome Danny and very cool of you to do it. I hope some of the folks who actually change there minds post up in this thread, but I doubt they will :duh:
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Yes, there's a difference between a scientist's view and an engineer's view. Scientists explore what is possible, engineers apply what's already been discovered. The people here who claim to be "scientific" are actually basing their thinking on an engineering approach, not a scientific approach.
I understand what you're saying. There was a post on audio asylum a few months back wish i'd saved it, where someone said more or less said the same thing but at greater length and detail, it was a very interesting post - i'll have to see if i can find it. Some are bound to take it the wrong way, but the same can be said of many disciplines.
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I understand what you're saying. There was a post on audio asylum a few months back wish i'd saved it, where someone said more or less said the same thing but at greater length and detail, it was a very interesting post - i'll have to see if i can find it. Some are bound to take it the wrong way, but the same can be said of many disciplines.
I posted on the topic elsewhere on AudioCircle a while back:
It's important to understand that audio engineers, like all engineers, are strongly biased towards valuing and expecting certainty: if I do X and Y then Z must result. The whole exercise of engineering is about calculating the definite. What is needed is the approach of science: embracing the unknown. Scientists are always open to understanding their limits, the boundaries of prevailing theory, the value of uncertainty and being wrong—and so human knowledge advances. Human knowledge does not advance when someone dogmatically claims that our observations must be wrong because her (or his) calculations show that it can't be true.
Clair Patterson, the geochemist who was the first person to measure the age of the Earth, published on the archeological evidence for fundamentally different brain wiring for scientific versus engineering mindsets.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V66-4887P6W-DF&_user=10&_coverDate=08%2F31%2F1994&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1465502524&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=a893e127d84bdeeb782021dd58f55e4b&searchtype=a
This is not to say that everything someone feels or wants to be true is true (e.g. crystals have supernatural healing powers, astrologers can see the future in the stars, etc.). When controlled observation is applied, however, and the observational evidence is puzzling, engineers get dismissive and defensive and scientists get to work.
What we have in these discussions of measurement vs. listening experience is a thousand new data points that conflict with the rules the engineers have learned. Meanwhile, somewhere working quietly, the scientists are puzzling away to improve our knowledge so that eventually the engineers will have a new mantra and the debate will move on.
So, let's all be patient. 8)
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Elitists of every kind fall into this mindset. They are smarter than anyone else and they attempt to prove it by humiliating, degradating and slandering anyone with an opposing POV.
It seems to me that you've just done exactly the same thing...
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Scientists explore what is possible, engineers apply what's already been discovered.
That simply isn't true.
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It seems to me that you've just done exactly the same thing...
John, not really. My point is that anyone, me included, that trys to make a blanket statement that: pick one - all caps sound the same, wire is wire, all amps sound the same, mine is bigger or smaller than yours, whatever - without having done the heavy lifting of doing structured tests to find out - is doing the discussion about the topic at hand a disservice.
I am a recovering flatearther. I didn't believe that capacitors sounded different - that one would sound superior to another. I had a gentleman teach me the empirical process to find out for myself, hence my journey to a more or less subjective standpoint in audio.
The problem that I have with flatearth meter readers is that 99% of them call us (subjective observers) stupid without any experience in the matter in discussion. If a person takes the time to actually give stuff a listen and still maintains that there are no difference to him I have no problem with that. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I don't think they are stupid or delusional. It is the person that will denigrate another, even though they have no practical experience concerning the topic, that gets my goat.
It is statements like this: "So when we kill the chicken and spread the blood around the cables which direction sounds better, clockwise or counter?" That has no place in a discussion and will tend to evoke reponses like mine. I think that open, frank discussion is healthy. Comments like that one, not so much.
A good portion of what we do as hobbyist/professional is to try to find out what sounds superior in a given application, isn't it?
Dave
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It is statements like this: "So when we kill the chicken and spread the blood around the cables which direction sounds better, clockwise or counter?" That has no place in a discussion and will tend to evoke reponses like mine. I think that open, frank discussion is healthy. Comments like that one, not so much.
But your tirade is completely justifiable. He did it, so you can too. You retain the moral high ground though, because "he did it first."
This seems to me a bit like one of those feuds where nobody remembers the actual reason why they are fighting. There's always an excuse to shoot back, though. Rational discussion is impossible, because the generalizations and mischaracterizations have taken the place of anything that what was actually said or argued.
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But your tirade is completely justifiable. He did it, so you can too. You retain the moral high ground though, because "he did it first."
This seems to me a bit like one of those feuds where nobody remembers the actual reason why they are fighting. There's always an excuse to shoot back, though. Rational discussion is impossible, because the generalizations and mischaracterizations have taken the place of anything that what was actually said or argued.
John, I wonder if there really is a "moral high ground" in issues like this. I think that discussion with a little bit of disagreement is a good thing and helps to further the understanding of any given topic. There are too many of us around that have been the focus of character assassination by those that are unwilling to concede that there is an outside chance that we might have a valid point. Makes old guys like me grumpy and hair triggered.
My biggest concern is when intellectual curiosity is stifled by zealots on either side of an argument. It's like someone saying all cheese tastes the same because it is made from milk and rennin. You end up with the Swiss pissed off and funny tasting cheesesteaks.
Later,
Dave
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FWIW I've only ever eaten one cheesesteak and I hope it was my last. And not just because I don't eat "steak" any more. Frankly it was disgusting. How's that for "healthy" discussion ;)
Back on topic - is there a topic? I just feel (like I think I said) that the posturing is getting ridiculous.
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I think this is a great idea and hope to hear comments from all who manage to get the opportunity to listen.
I saw that this thread has been linked to over on a "science" forum, and the usual posters are pouncing all over it with the usual comments. Wish they would give it a chance, possibly even taking advantage of it to give a listen themselves before they come to a conclusion.
Oh well. Some things don't change. I'm firmly of the opinion that they sound different, I just have trouble deciding which is "best". :?
I linked that over there to give the "scientists" a chance to do more than beat their chest on the internet.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=19475818&postcount=118
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1279823
I bet not a single one of them steps up to the challenge.
For example, it is clear this person doesn't get it: Sure seems like a lot of work for speakers that go for $150 or so per pair.
This is exactly the type of speaker we want to use.
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Yes, there's a difference between a scientist's view and an engineer's view. Scientists explore what is possible, engineers apply what's already been discovered. The people here who claim to be "scientific" are actually basing their thinking on an engineering approach, not a scientific approach.
I think that is partially true. But what Kuhn points out is that the majority of scientists get entrenched in the dominant view and tend to just throw out any facts that are in opposition to that view. Their's is a very Procrustean way of seeing things.
On to another angle.
That we are talking about the quality of sound gives us a kind of hybrid terrain where scientists are not altogether at home or welcome. If we were talking about the quality of a wine we would barely care what the scientists say about it as there is nothing very meaningful (as of right now) for them to measure. If we want advice on good wine we would get a wine tasting expert. Someone who evaluates with his senses. Scientists are fine with quantity but to my knowledge they don't handle quality any better than the rest of us. In audio, there are a lot of subtleties that are just not measured. Which ones? I wish I knew... :green:
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My point is that anyone, me included, that trys to make a blanket statement that: pick one - all caps sound the same, wire is wire, all amps sound the same, mine is bigger or smaller than yours, whatever - without having done the heavy lifting of doing structured tests to find out - is doing the discussion about the topic at hand a disservice.
Just so everyone is clear. This whole thing came up when a HOBBYIST posted some of his findings. He was having fun experimenting and sharing. He was then run out by PROFESSIONALS with finacial interests.
Anyway is seems Danny is not going to share the speakers with anyone who may not agree with him or is not getting "the press" involved.
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Just so everyone is clear. This whole thing came up when a HOBBYIST posted some of his findings. He was having fun experimenting and sharing. He was then run out by PROFESSIONALS with finacial interests.
Anyway is seems Danny is not going to share the speakers with anyone who may not agree with him or is not getting "the press" involved.
I guess I do not understand the last comment. Danny is sending the speaker in post #65 to the Bay Area Audio Society for them to try. They already have stated that it will be in their Events section of their website once they setup a time. IIRC there are members of "the press" in the society. I have not seen any limitation put on whom they can go to.
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Sound is SUBJECTVE! Everyone hears things differently, there is no Scientific method to change this, therefore we have to approach it as a form of Art and introduce flavours until we like what we hear! I like Picaso and am willing to spend through the teeth for it, because I think it's beautiful, and you wouldn't spend a dime on it but would rather pay for a Davinci! Yet, there are still guidelines to follow, acurate sound, frequency, timing, ect! Who are we to say that the Platnium bypass cap you installed don't do a damn thing, if you hear a difference and think it's better, then more power to you! If I don't hear a difference, I don't have to buy it. Why is this? Well he's not wrong from hearing and improvement with the mod and either am I for not hearing it! It's what's hard wired into us as individualists!
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Just so everyone is clear. This whole thing came up when a HOBBYIST posted some of his findings. He was having fun experimenting and sharing. He was then run out by PROFESSIONALS with finacial interests.
Anyway is seems Danny is not going to share the speakers with anyone who may not agree with him or is not getting "the press" involved.
I am scratching my head a little on this one. :scratch:
Dantheman was really offered assistance in taking it again to another level, and at the same time having even more fun with it.
I don't have any real financial interest in this thing at all. I didn't even redesign anything to improve on it. I offered up several ways that they can be improved for free and showed before and after measurements on the free fix of cutting away the inside edge of the woofer opening. Anybody wanting to do what I did with the crossover can do so just as I did. I only replaced the same values for the same values, just using higher quality parts. Anyone can do that, and get the parts from anywhere. If someone wanted to buy the parts from me that would be fine, but that is not the point of this exercise. Quite the opposite is going on. I have spent considerable time and my own money for the purpose of educating.
And the speakers are NOT just being sent to people that I think will agree with me regarding the subjective differences in crossover parts. The complete opposite it true. The speakers will be sent to people that never have had a chance to listen for themselves and make their own decisions. In fact it is the whole nay sayers group that this is being offered up to. Now ANYONE can listen for themselves.
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Just so everyone is clear. This whole thing came up when a HOBBYIST posted some of his findings. He was having fun experimenting and sharing. He was then run out by PROFESSIONALS with finacial interests.
Anyway is seems Danny is not going to share the speakers with anyone who may not agree with him or is not getting "the press" involved.
sts9fan,
I was also a skeptic about wires, interconnects, power cables, etc. In my case, it wasn't that I thought that no differences existed, just that I doubted it would make a difference in my room with my equipment and with my ears. When I put a good power cable in my system, I learned that sometimes these differences are not subtle. Cryoed outlets made even more difference. You state that Danny won't send them out to anyone that doesn't back his conclusion- this sure seems like a personal attack without evidence. I suggest that you put yourself on the list for these speakers, and make up your own mind after having listened to them. Simply supporting an entrenched position without listening for yourself doesn't strengthen your argument. How can anyone argue against listening for yourself in your own room with your own system? :scratch:
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Just so everyone is clear. This whole thing came up when a HOBBYIST posted some of his findings. He was having fun experimenting and sharing. He was then run out by PROFESSIONALS with finacial interests.
Anyway is seems Danny is not going to share the speakers with anyone who may not agree with him or is not getting "the press" involved.
I believe that this whole thing got out of hand when Dan declined to post his subjective appraisal of the speaker. Sure they measure OK. I say OK because from the measurements (as well as experience) I would infer that they will in fact be a little bright sounding - see the 400,000 Rule.
It was not an industry professional that started to ask the subjective "but, how do they sound/" question. What I saw was a couple of guys discussing the merits, or lack thereof, of "better parts". What comprises "better" is different for almost every individual project. I also saw some pretty snippy comments by others that was not edifying the discussion. The discussion is/was the age old conundrum of: "can measurements alone determine audio quaility?" A measurement system is a non-discriminatory apparatus that only cares about total energy in the system at a given point in the curve. The ear/brain system also adds a qualifier to the quantifier. The measurement system asks: does it sound? The ear/brain asks: does it sound good? Remember, the qualifier is "audio quality."
I've built speakers that were amazing in the measurement department and a total failure in terms of musicality. That is one of the reasons that I started down this whole road to perdition of subjective qualification. I have done literally hundreds of A/B tests to determine what are the major issues involved in building a good loudspeaker. A lot of it hinges on the source in front of the spreaker. Believe me, the last thing anyone needs is a ruthlessly revealing speaker reproducing some cheapo rack system's output. We have to face it: sometimes compromised performance is just what the system ordered.
A system has to be a synergistic collection to work well. Very high quality electronics demand very high quality speakers to be even handed in reproduction. This does NOT mean that high quality is dependent upon price. What it does mean is that parts have to be chosen for the application, that's all.
I've heard the Behringer speakers. There are quite a few of them in studios here in Albuquerque. For ~$150.00 they don't suck. They are probably just the ticket for a low end CD player and receiver. I wouldn't own them without tweaking them, though. First thing I would do is work on the box. Then the caps, then........
Dave
JohnR - a cheesesteak is ALL about the grease :lol:
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sts9fan,
You state that Danny won't send them out to anyone that doesn't back his conclusion- this sure seems like a personal attack without evidence. I suggest that you put yourself on the list for these speakers, and make up your own mind after having listened to them. Simply supporting an entrenched position without listening for yourself doesn't strengthen your argument. How can anyone argue against listening for yourself in your own room with your own system? :scratch:
+1 :thumb:
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Just so everyone is clear. This whole thing came up when a HOBBYIST posted some of his findings. He was having fun experimenting and sharing. He was then run out by PROFESSIONALS with finacial interests.
Anyway is seems Danny is not going to share the speakers with anyone who may not agree with him or is not getting "the press" involved.
I agree w/ your initial comments, but totally disagree w/ your final assessment ...
Here is the thread that started in GR Research forum as a follow-up to DanTheMan's Audiocircle Lab thread (referenced in 1st post): http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=83841.0
I think Danny was nothing but helpful & informative in both threads. Does he have strong opinions? Sure, but he has a very strong background in this arena. IMO his input was nothing but professional & educational.
Others, most particularly DanTheMan, ratcheted up the rhetoric excessively. The thread got cleaned up & DanTheMan was put in time out due to threats given to a least one poster. I'm sure others could have been given time outs as well, but it was determined by an AC admin as to what was appropriate & inappropriate.
I am sorry that things escalated to the level they did, but DanTheMan was the main instigator for dialing up it up to the extreme.
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Now you got me thinking Stephen. I wonder if I can come up with a chemistry based Don's beer satisfaction analysis. Probably would have to be a different one for stouts, ales, and lagers. Then I could just buy beer based on the measurements. :green:
That we are talking about the quality of sound gives us a kind of hybrid terrain where scientists are not altogether at home or welcome. If we were talking about the quality of a wine we would barely care what the scientists say about it as there is nothing very meaningful (as of right now) for them to measure. If we want advice on good wine we would get a wine tasting expert. Someone who evaluates with his senses. Scientists are fine with quantity but to my knowledge they don't handle quality any better than the rest of us. In audio, there are a lot of subtleties that are just not measured. Which ones? I wish I knew... :green:
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Cheesesteaks! Now I'm hungary! I like the chicken versions! :thumb:
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WARNING !! THREADJACK
Now you got me thinking Stephen. I wonder if I can come up with a chemistry based Don's beer satisfaction analysis. Probably would have to be a different one for stouts, ales, and lagers. Then I could just buy beer based on the measurements. :green:
There are fairly tight parameters in place for beer style guidelines. Please see Beer Judge Certification Program Styles Guidelines (http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/catdex.php)
You can measure the alcohol content, color and overall bitterness with instrumentation. I am not aware of any tests for flavor or aroma not involving a human actually drinking and smelling. While overall bitterness can be measured it is very easy to have two beers that measure the same, taste completely different.
Back to the thread.
Wayne, BJCP Certified Beer Judge since 1987
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I am sorry that things escalated to the level they did, but DanTheMan was the main instigator for dialing up it up to the extreme.
I suppose he took things too far, but he also made some very good points. Danny obviously still hasn't recovered from the drubbing he took. :)
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Well, if they measure the same and you think they taste different, clearly it is all in your head. :D
While overall bitterness can be measured it is very easy to have two beers that measure the same, taste completely different.
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I suppose he took things too far, but he also made some very good points. Danny obviously still hasn't recovered from the drubbing he took. :)
:scratch: Really?
Dave
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Well, if they measure the same and you think they taste different, clearly it is all in your head. :D
YOUR TONGUE HATES YOU AND TRIES TO DECEIVE YOU AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY - DO NOT TRUST IT! SAME GOES FOR YOUR NOSE AND EARS!!
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YOUR TONGUE HATES YOU AND TRIES TO DECEIVE YOU AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY - DO NOT TRUST IT! SAME GOES FOR YOUR NOSE AND EARS!!
Gosh, I laughed so hard I almost cried on this one.
Dave
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So exactly what are you all discussing anymore?
1) Science v/s Engeneering?
2) Danny v/s DantheMan (in some other thread) battle?
3) The subjectiveness of ones hearing?
or
That Danny has made an offer and we all should wait and see that the public hears and reports back? Wanna be part of that listening audience then contact Danny and get on the list and be one of the cool people. Until then 1,2, and 3 will never be solved because they are opinions and you can defend them its your constitutional right but you will probably never change anyone else's. Only hey can do that for themselves.
Hear the speakers, get educated and then rejoin the conversation.
Mrs. Ninja
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Wayne, BJCP Certified Beer Judge since 1987
Oh boy, am I in the wrong hobby. :duh: Y'all can keep your measurements and fancy caps, I want to certifiably judge beer!
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Oh boy, am I in the wrong hobby. :duh: Y'all can keep your measurements and fancy caps, I want to certifiably judge beer!
+1 on the judging! :thumb:
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Mmmmmm....BEER....Mmmmm....slurp!
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Hi Danny,
If you can, would you comment on whether you measured the impedance and phase of the speaker with both the stock crossover and the one you designed? If so, would you mind terribly posting the graphs? Also, in your listening evaluations I believe you said you hooked the speakers up to some sort of a tube amp. Is there a link somewhere that discusses the output impedance of the amp's various taps? Lastly, did you perform any listening tests using a solid state amp?
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:banghead:
:argue:
(eat popcorn emoticon)
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I had to check the impedance of each crossover to make sure it was all wired correctly. This is how I realized it would take one more switch to break the circuit of each one.
The impedance curves lay right on top of each other and can do nothing else. They are identical. Phase relationship will also be the same and there is nothing between the two networks to change that.
I did not save the impedance measurements of one curved stacked right on top of the other one. It really made no sense. Once you shoot the second one you can't even see most of the first one under it.
I did save the frequency response measurements of each one though.
I did my listening on a $50,000 set of custom built tube amps. They have 4 and 8 ohm taps and I listened on both of them. I also listened some on a Virtue audio amp that was used for burning them in. Whether the listening amp is tube or solid state will have no baring on the audible differences between the crossovers.
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Just so I understand then, you're saying that you measured the impedance of the speaker as a function of frequency with each crossover and found that the graphs were virtually a dead overlay with respect to both impedance and phase angle. Kind of like what Atkinson does. Right? So your curves would've kind of looked like this example with both being more or less indistinguishable.
(http://stereophile.com/images/archivesart/610PSBfig1.jpg)
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Impedance and phase are both taken from the same tune burst or tone sweep. Any changes to one means changes to the other. You can't have identical impedance curves and differences in phase.
And yes, the impedance curves were dead on each other.
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YOUR TONGUE HATES YOU AND TRIES TO DECEIVE YOU AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY - DO NOT TRUST IT! SAME GOES FOR YOUR NOSE AND EARS!!
Yes that's a good chuckle! It has some biblical support to boot:
James 3:6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one’s life on fire...
James would have said something similar about ears but ran out of time. Paul managed to squeeze something in about 'itching ears' only wanting to hear what they want. Clearly a veiled prophecy about the placebo effect listening to supposed tweaks in audio systems.
:green:
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Bay Area Audiophile Society (BAAS) members will start listening sessions this weekend. We'll have a relatively large group on 11/27.
If you are in the Bay Area and want to hear them, contact me at bob[at]logictrust[.]com.
I'll try to keep this forum appraised of results. More might be available on our website our its forums (baasnotes[dot]com).
Bob
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Oh Gawd! This is getting all too serious. I'll add another passage: it's not what enters into a man or what he speaks that causes sin, but rather what comes out of him and that which dwells in the heart! Danny improved upon something that benefits whomever might want to hear for themselves or have and interest in this particular model All kidding of Art, subjective, ear candy, you hear tomato I hear tamoto aside. Thank You Danny for sharing your amazing talents and still keeping it affordable! You could easily ignore us and reap huge profits for yourself, yet you still contribute! It is appreciated!
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I'm Listening to the GRR Behringer monitors as we speak. Pretty interesting.
Bottom line: decent with small acoustic, OK with Springsteen, not so much with Mahler 6. (All listening with Danny's xover so far.)
In any case, if you're in the Bay Area let me know if/when you'd like to listen. I'm in Santa Clara.
A few people are coming over noon on the 27th.
I've got several other speakers laying around for comparison, all with digital crossovers.
Come to think of it, I may actively cross a pair of these Behringers some day....
Bob
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Try the other xover and report back. :thumb:
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Just be sure that when you switch them out to un-plug one set of binding post and then plug in the other. Don't plug them both in at the same time.
Also, I am not promoting these speakers or advertising an upgraded crossover for them. These speakers was just a good platform for comparing the differences of stock verses upgraded crossover parts.
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Bottom line: decent with small acoustic, OK with Springsteen, not so much with Mahler 6. (All listening with Danny's xover so far.)
Intersting. One would think you would start with the stock crossover. Mmmmmmmm
"Mario, what do you get when you cross an insomniac, an unwilling agnostic and a dyslexic?"
"I give."
"You get someone who stays up all night torturing himself mentally over the question of whether or not there's a dog."
— David Foster Wallace (Infinite Jest)
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Intersting. One would think you would start with the stock crossover. Mmmmmmmm
I agree. What would've been really neat is if the crossover wasn't marked. It was just A / B. Then no one would know which is which. That would've been really good...
Yes, then sealed with "special" screws.
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Oh Jason. You know that would never happen but its a great idea. Tests without bias are scary.
I think it would be nice to give these unknown listeners a questionnaire before the listen.
Do you think Caps make a difference 1 to 10
Do you think Cables make a difference 1 to 10
etc etc.
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Oh Jason. You know that would never happen but its a great idea. Tests without bias are scary.
I think it would be nice to give these unknown listeners a questionnaire before the listen.
Do you think Caps make a difference 1 to 10
Do you think Cables make a difference 1 to 10
etc etc.
After I posted my previous post I thought the same thing. It would be really neat if it was done like that.
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It is actually easier to hear the differences if you start with the upgraded crossover. Then when you switch them, it is real easy to miss all of the things that you were hearing before. It's one of those "wow what happened to everything" deals.
The other way around takes a little longer to process all of the new details and differences because you are hearing new things.
And if one guy is doing the switching and everyone else is listening then the listeners have no idea which is which.
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And if one guy is doing the switching and everyone else is listening then the listeners have no idea which is which.
In theory but I have no doubt that the wiring guy will be like "This is the hot rod GR Research xover that was custom made" "That Danny is a hell of a guy for doing this!!!"
:oops: Forgot to tell you all...
EDIT: "We'll start with the GR Research xover first." :thumb:
Please be sure to put your boners away after hearing this first xover. :lol:
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Is that going to happen? Will everyone know which is which? So are you saying based on your last post IF they start with the stock you would understand people prefering the first? Are any AC regulars going to be at this meeting or just folks with <20 posts?
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Is that going to happen? Will everyone know which is which? So are you saying based on your last post IF they start with the stock you would understand people prefering the first? Are any AC regulars going to be at this meeting or just folks with <20 posts?
I doubt if anyone will know which is which unless they are told. At least to start with. The differences are pretty apparent regardless of which they start with, but it is always quicker to tell when you take stuff away verses giving more good.
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I don't believe the reason that this was done was to showcase a new product for upgrading the Beringer speakers. I think the project was done to credibly demonstrate the difference between a standard Xover and an upgraded Xover of the same electronic values.
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I don't believe the reason that this was done was to showcase a new product for upgrading the Beringer speakers. I think the project was done to credibly demonstrate the difference between a standard Xover and an upgraded Xover of the same electronic values.
Yep, you got it!
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I don't believe the reason that this was done was to showcase a new product for upgrading the Beringer speakers. I think the project was done to credibly demonstrate the difference between a standard Xover and an upgraded Xover of the same electronic values.
Knowing Danny as well as I do and about the workload that he has I'm sure that coming out with a crossover upgrade for a cheapie Behringer is the last thing on his mind. It is as you said: done in the interest of advancing the art as well as the science of speaker design and building.
I'm noting with great interest as to how this thread is being set up for cries of "foul" before anything transpires. Maybe that should read: "Fowl." :dunno:
Dave
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I'm noting with great interest as to how this thread is being set up for cries of "foul" before anything transpires.
X2
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Same old same old......by the same olds.....
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It is actually easier to hear the differences if you start with the upgraded crossover. Then when you switch them, it is real easy to miss all of the things that you were hearing before. It's one of those "wow what happened to everything" deals.
That has been my experience as well.
I'll try to begin the comparative listening this weekend.
Sorry about the delay, but there's a lot going on. For example, our group (BAAS) will be listening to The Tape Project material all day tomorrow in Paul Stubblebine's studio.
I may do some single-blind testing in one or two of our groups.
Bob
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...or just folks with <20 posts?
That's funny. If you doubt my qualifications or experience, check out the blog that I write - baasnotes(dot)com - and its forums. Or talk to any of BAAS' 300 members.
Bob
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Is that going to happen? Will everyone know which is which? So are you saying based on your last post IF they start with the stock you would understand people prefering the first? Are any AC regulars going to be at this meeting or just folks with <20 posts?
Wow, you _really_ don't want this test to show anything, do you?
Could we just box up the speakers and send them to this guy (who posts a lot, since that's apparently a requirement) first, so he can weigh in with a null result? Then maybe the real testing can take place without the background noise.
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I never doubted your "qualifications". I just don't understand why the speakers were sent to someone who was not even envolved in the original disscussion. Or at least an AC regular we all trust.
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That's funny. If you doubt my qualifications or experience, check out the blog that I write - baasnotes(dot)com - and its forums. Or talk to any of BAAS' 300 members.
Bob
I just bet you are some 16 year old ringer left handed pitching phenom from Puerto Rico that bats both ways and....... ahhh, crap: that's Little league...................
Never mind. :rotflmao:
Sometimes I just KILL me. :lol:
Hey, if you see Bob Hodas at Paul's studio, tell him Dave Elledge says 'Hi'.
Dave
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The reasons Bob got them:
1. Bob had followed the thread from the beginning.
2. Bob asked for them.
3. Bob offered a venue that would allow ~50 audiophiles to participate.
4. Bob does have great credentials!
5. Bonus! Bob even has his own audiophile website and blog: http://baasnotes.com/blog/
6. After thought, even DanTheMan would have his chance to hear them. Not that I expect him to, but he can't say he didn't have the chance. :D
7. And one more post and Bob will be over 20 posts here. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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I just bet you are some 16 year old ringer left handed pitching phenom from Puerto Rico that bats both ways and....... ahhh, crap: that's Little league...................
Never mind. :rotflmao:
Sometimes I just KILL me. :lol:
Hey, if you see Bob Hodas at Paul's studio, tell him Dave Elledge says 'Hi'.
Dave
Will do.
He and I set up the gig.
Bob
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Will do.
He and I set up the gig.
Bob
Well, I can't think of a more credible venue for all of this to happen than Paul Stubblebine's place: http://www.paulstubblebine.com/mastering/index.php - and to have Bob Hodas help you set it up is pretty telling: http://www.bobhodas.com/
I want to see anyone dispute the results of this test, no matter how many posts they have. I think this will work. Wish I could be there.
Dave
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Oh man, wish I was going to be there!
I guess a bucket of popcorn and the F5 key will have to do! :D
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You've changed so much at one time, how can you say every change made a difference and not one of the changes made a difference and the others were a waste of time/money.
Also, you know you made the changes, will you complete double blind studies between the modified and unmodified Behringers?
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Oh man, wish I was going to be there!
I guess a bucket of popcorn and the F5 key will have to do! :D
+1
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You've changed so much at one time, how can you say every change made a difference and not one of the changes made a difference and the others were a waste of time/money.
Also, you know you made the changes, will you complete double blind studies between the modified and unmodified Behringers?
When you have been doing this for a long time and have, you know, experience doing these types of modifications, designing speakers, measuring speakers, building speakers, studying the medium and the outcome for say, 20 or 30 years, you just KNOW which ones do what. Besides, the changes are synergistic. Each one effects the others and the results are greater than the individual mods taken singularly.
Double blind tests are for those that don't know what they are doing, have an agenda or can't hear. A simple A/B works for the initiated. This is not a venue for double bling testing afficionados.
Dave
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OK, first the 'bad news': we didn't have time to set up a blind test. In truth, the test that I had planned was single-blind, and therefore subject to inevitable attack anyway. Still, I wish that we would have been able to do it.
While others have heard the speakers here in my home, I'm only going to describe the results of today's eight-person controlled listening test - and some personal remarks.
The system consisted of a Mac Pro music server, Prism Orpheus DAC, MSB analog buffer stage/volume control, and Goldmund SRM monobloks.
The room is fairly large: 35'x13', with 15' ceiling. The speakers were 6.4' from the short wall, firing down the long dimension.
After a 30-minute 'warmup' listening session, I played one-minute excerpts from the following tracks:
- Boz Scaggs - The Ballad of Sad Young Men
- Bran Bromberg - The Saga of Harrison Crabfeathers
- Corrine May - Fly Away
- Bruce Springsteen - Streets of Fire
- Gergiev/LSO - Mahler 6th, 4th Movement (24/96)
Note: The Mahler was played for a smaller group.
The tracks were played first with the DR crossover and then the stock circuit (in reverse track order). If anyone wanted anything repeated, I would do so. No one did.
Overall, 88% of participants (7/8) heard "unmistakably clear" differences between the two crossovers. In addition, 75% (6/8) considered the modded speakers "a commendable bargain" at a $600/pr price point.
Some individual comments:
- "The stock crossover produced uncontrolled bass, and a bit of objectionable treble roughness"
- "The soundstage collapsed with the stock speaker; it sounded more artificial"
- "The DR crossover produced greater bass cohesion"
- "The DR crossover makes me question my opinion of metal domes - maybe I could come to like them; the stock crossover reinforced my bad opinion of metal domes"
- "The stock was tizzy, almost buzzy; the DR increased individual instrument delineation"
- "The stock system sounded kind of veiled"
As a separate exercise, I played the Mahler 6/4 for myself. I tried not to listen to system specifics - just enjoy the music. I was able to do a reasonable good job of that with the DR xover. With the stock setup, my attention wandered, and I almost got up to check emails! It just wasn't involving.
I also tried the speakers with a secondary system, with decent-quality gainclones driving them. The contrasts between the two crossovers increased in this setup, and the stock system became almost unlistenable.
I will also offer that the stock bass is on the edge of control at higher volumes. Without the damping material that Danny added, I can't imagine what it would be like.
Anyway, it was an enjoyable and useful exercise. Many thanks to Danny for making it happen!
The speakers are ready to be shipped to the next player....
Bob
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Bob,
Thanks for your write up. Just imagine if Danny had given them the full works and crafted his own network! :green:
Robert
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Thanks for the write up, I have been following this whole thing from the "shadows."
I fully came to appreciate the differences crossover component quality can have on sound when I took my AV123/DR Line Sources, and had Bill from Response Audio build me the same crossover using better caps, inductors, etc, etc, etc.
The difference was quite drastic, even considering that the original parts weren't nearly that bad (mostly ERSE).
Danny really knows his stuff. :thumb:
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OK, first the 'bad news': we didn't have time to set up a blind test. In truth, the test that I had planned was single-blind, and therefore subject to inevitable attack anyway. Still, I wish that we would have been able to do it.
While others have heard the speakers here in my home, I'm only going to describe the results of today's eight-person controlled listening test - and some personal remarks.
The system consisted of a Mac Pro music server, Prism Orpheus DAC, MSB analog buffer stage/volume control, and Goldmund SRM monobloks.
The room is fairly large: 35'x13', with 15' ceiling. The speakers were 6.4' from the short wall, firing down the long dimension.
After a 30-minute 'warmup' listening session, I played one-minute excerpts from the following tracks:
- Boz Scaggs - The Ballad of Sad Young Men
- Bran Bromberg - The Saga of Harrison Crabfeathers
- Corrine May - Fly Away
- Bruce Springsteen - Streets of Fire
- Gergiev/LSO - Mahler 6th, 4th Movement (24/96)
Note: The Mahler was played for a smaller group.
The tracks were played first with the DR crossover and then the stock circuit (in reverse track order). If anyone wanted anything repeated, I would do so. No one did.
Overall, 88% of participants (7/8) heard "unmistakably clear" differences between the two crossovers. In addition, 75% (6/8) considered the modded speakers "a commendable bargain" at a $600/pr price point.
Some individual comments:
- "The stock crossover produced uncontrolled bass, and a bit of objectionable treble roughness"
- "The soundstage collapsed with the stock speaker; it sounded more artificial"
- "The DR crossover produced greater bass cohesion"
- "The DR crossover makes me question my opinion of metal domes - maybe I could come to like them; the stock crossover reinforced my bad opinion of metal domes"
- "The stock was tizzy, almost buzzy; the DR increased individual instrument delineation"
- "The stock system sounded kind of veiled"
As a separate exercise, I played the Mahler 6/4 for myself. I tried not to listen to system specifics - just enjoy the music. I was able to do a reasonable good job of that with the DR xover. With the stock setup, my attention wandered, and I almost got up to check emails! It just wasn't involving.
I also tried the speakers with a secondary system, with decent-quality gainclones driving them. The contrasts between the two crossovers increased in this setup, and the stock system became almost unlistenable.
I will also offer that the stock bass is on the edge of control at higher volumes. Without the damping material that Danny added, I can't imagine what it would be like.
Anyway, it was an enjoyable and useful exercise. Many thanks to Danny for making it happen!
The speakers are ready to be shipped to the next player....
Bob
OMG!!!
You mean it wasn't an ABX double blind test performed by a qualified administrator?
I had no doubt that the results would be anything than what they are. Better parts simply sound better. It doesn't take anything more than taking the time to DO the listening to know the outcome.
I don't understand people that will argue a position without a frame of reference. :dunno:
Dave
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You mean it wasn't an ABX double blind test performed by a qualified administrator?
Where do you get that certification? I think I'd like to add "ABX DBT Certified Administrator" to my business card!
Steve
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@Dave: I wanted to do a blind test both for fun and because some folks simply won't believe anything else. I have never conducted one, but I can see both merits and drawbacks to the procedure. But IMO a DBT is *neither* sufficient nor necessary to evaluate a component.
@Steve: I believe that you want to see Sean Olive for that certification.
Cheers,
Bob
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Where do you get that certification? I think I'd like to add "ABX DBT Certified Administrator" to my business card!
Steve
How can there possibly be any room left on that card Steve? :lol:
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@Dave: I wanted to do a blind test both for fun and because some folks simply won't believe anything else. I have never conducted one, but I can see both merits and drawbacks to the procedure. But IMO a DBT is *neither* sufficient nor necessary to evaluate a component.
@Steve: I believe that you want to see Sean Olive for that certification.
Cheers,
Bob
Some of us studio geeks in Albuquerque did some blind and double blind testing when trying to figure out how to get killer recordings with modest equipment back in the early 80's. It was right after I had my "No s__t!" epiphany that some things just DO sound better than others. Like any religious zealot I started getting into doing component analysis and a friend of mine built a random generator using a 555 timer to trigger relays. We never knew what part was in the circuit. What thAT testing showed was that we did not need to rely upon blind or double blind A/B or A/B/X testing after we trained ourselves on what to listen for in the context of component induced artifacts. Then came the PRAT slew rate wars... :duh:
Great fun, it was.
Dave
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What that testing showed was that we did not need to rely upon blind or double blind A/B or A/B/X testing after we trained ourselves on what to listen for in the context of component induced artifacts.
You bet. I will admit, however, that I sometimes ask myself: "Would I hear that change in a DBT?" I find that just asking myself that helps me stay on track. A corollary of this is that I have developed a (healthy) distrust of "barely audible" changes.
Bob
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Hi all Audio Circle members.
I have been reading some of the threads about capacitors cross over up grades and I am sure that you guys are not imaginating things, there must be a difference, however, I will do my own blind test, because for me, blind test is the only way to hear if there is a difference. I want to make sure that if I invest money in a up grade, I will hear a difference, a big difference.
Guy 13
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Hi all Audio Circle members.
I have been reading some of the threads about capacitors cross over up grades and I am sure that you guys are not imaginating things, there must be a difference, however, I will do my own blind test, because for me, blind test is the only way to hear if there is a difference. I want to make sure that if I invest money in a up grade, I will hear a difference, a big difference.
Guy 13
Guy, some changes are subtle at first listen, but translate to much lower listener's fatigue in the long term.
The way I do most of my upgrades is to listen to no more than 3 components during an audition, pick the one out that I "think" will be the best of the three and insert it into the system. I will then listen to the new configuration for at least a week and then revert the system to the prior consist. If I can't immediately pick out which configuration I like the best - that is a null test. It is easy to tell something that is very good when it is removed from the system.
Of course there are some changes that do not require the extended listening to identify as BAD choices. They will let you know that they suck in an hour or two. :o
Dave
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Thanks a lot Bob. I really appreciate you having people over for a listen.
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Thanks a lot Bob. I really appreciate you having people over for a listen.
My pleasure...
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Guy, some changes are subtle at first listen, but translate to much lower listener's fatigue in the long term.
The way I do most of my upgrades is to listen to no more than 3 components during an audition, pick the one out that I "think" will be the best of the three and insert it into the system. I will then listen to the new configuration for at least a week and then revert the system to the prior consist. If I can't immediately pick out which configuration I like the best - that is a null test. It is easy to tell something that is very good when it is removed from the system.
Of course there are some changes that do not require the extended listening to identify as BAD choices. They will let you know that they suck in an hour or two. :o
Dave
That is my experience also. Other than speakers I rarely hear much difference upon insertion of any new pieces. It takes time for me to get accustomed to the sound of any component.
When I read someone say they put in a new IC and heard a HUGE improvement immediately I am a bit skeptical.
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That is my experience also. Other than speakers I rarely hear much difference upon insertion of any new pieces. It takes time for me to get accustomed to the sound of any component.
When I read someone say they put in a new IC and heard a HUGE improvement immediately I am a bit skeptical.
Anytime anyone puts a "new" component in and immediately says that it is much better I just smile and say: "Wait. It's gonna change." I will often hear differences, but different is only different. Better is better. To make a semi-objective choice in a subjective situation requires that all of the DUT are broken in... uh, oh. I opened a different can there, huh?
Dave
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Wow! I just now checked that link (that was placed in this thread earlier) to the thread on AVS that is following this thread.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1279823
The number or personal attacks is amazing. :o
I guess giving people an opportunity to listen to something and compare for themselves is just too much for some of them. They are throwing stones at me, at the whole idea of the comparison, how the listening comparisons might be made, and just nit picking the whole process. I even see a few that still have an axe to grind with me.
And something tells me that none of them will want to be on the auditioning list. :scratch:
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It's always been this way. There are three discussions sure to get people riled up and ready to fight for their position no matter what: politics, religion, and audio. :)
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Wow! I just now checked that link (that was placed in this thread earlier) to the thread on AVS that is following this thread.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1279823
The number or personal attacks is amazing. :o
I guess giving people an opportunity to listen to something and compare for themselves is just too much for some of them. They are throwing stones at me, at the whole idea of the comparison, how the listening comparisons might be made, and just nit picking the whole process. I even see a few that still have an axe to grind with me.
And something tells me that none of them will want to be on the auditioning list. :scratch:
Danny, there are some people that just want to kick our subjective butts anywhere that they can. You, I and the others that have actually taken the time and made the effort to do the listening tests know what we hear. I am not really surprised that the usual suspects are after you. You have a following :flame: They just can't let go, can they? :lol:
Dave
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After a while, listening to people tell me that what I hear is invalid just becomes so much noise. The ONLY thing that ultimately matters is what I hear. Now, over the years, I have learned to pay attention to the advise of several of our knowledgeable members here at AC, including Danny. But even those opinions don't carry the weight of what my own ears tell me, and that is absolute end of the argument. For those that refuse to listen to an A/B test and then pontificate on what the results should be based on their entrenched positions, is a sad statement about the lengths that we go to hold to a belief. :deadhorse:
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Wow! I just now checked that link (that was placed in this thread earlier) to the thread on AVS that is following this thread.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1279823
The number or personal attacks is amazing. :o
I guess giving people an opportunity to listen to something and compare for themselves is just too much for some of them. They are throwing stones at me, at the whole idea of the comparison, how the listening comparisons might be made, and just nit picking the whole process. I even see a few that still have an axe to grind with me.
And something tells me that none of them will want to be on the auditioning list. :scratch:
I just read that whole thread and you weren't kidding. They sure have an opinion about people having an opinion!
Ultimately, I think the problem lies with the idea that some guys trust their ears and some guys don't. Kinda like Dantheman avoided anything to do with his subjective opinion.
I think it's partly an ego thing too. Some people just can't handle being proven wrong. Of course they can say the same about us. The difference is in the effort. Those who don't even try automatically fail to back up their claims.
My opinion is if someone doesn't trust their ears then they should probably get out of the audio hobby.
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My opinion is if someone doesn't trust their ears then they should probably get out of the audio hobby.
Good point, and I heartily agree. At the same time, I have a suspicion that it isn't so much an "audio" hobby for a lot of these guys, more like an "electronics" hobby. Their interest is more in geeking out about audio circuits and such, with sound as a secondary factor. Oh yeah, and the ego thing too. It sure does spoil the creative spirit to throw the baby out with the snake oil...
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Good point, and I heartily agree. At the same time, I have a suspicion that it isn't so much an "audio" hobby for a lot of these guys, more like an "electronics" hobby.
Or, perhaps, a "slamming other people in forums" hobby. :)
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Or, perhaps, a "slamming other people in forums" hobby. :)
There are a lot of very brave people that hide behind the safety of a moniker, a keyboard and distance. The kids that got their butts kicked consistently on the schoolground for being less than civil and never got over it.
I know where two of those guys live. I feel better knowing that they are on the east coast and I'm not. :guns:
As an old guy, I'm very happy about the second amendment and my CCW with some of the emails I've gotten from people over capacitors and wire. :scratch: Just think what would happen with a female thrown into the mix. :duh: Testosterone and scotch are highly overrated, methinks.
Dave
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Testosterone and scotch are highly overrated, methinks.
Dave
I dunno about that Dave. As the years go by, the testosterone gets less important, but the scotch gets better and better. (Even though it takes me about a year to go through a bottle)
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Good point, and I heartily agree. At the same time, I have a suspicion that it isn't so much an "audio" hobby for a lot of these guys, more like an "electronics" hobby. Their interest is more in geeking out about audio circuits and such, with sound as a secondary factor. Oh yeah, and the ego thing too. It sure does spoil the creative spirit to throw the baby out with the snake oil...
Also a good point.
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Hand them a bottle of wine and do they taste it or measure it? :green:
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8in poly woofer playing up to 2khz, doesn't sound right. 8in poly cone starts "misbehaving" around 600 hz.
I know, poly cone has the most tamed resonance compared to other materials, but it's still there.
Before trying to distinguish sound of crossover components, overall design has to be fixed.
Sorry, but I think quality of crossover components in this application is irrelevant, provided that components are not defective :)
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8in poly woofer playing up to 2khz, doesn't sound right. 8in poly cone starts "misbehaving" around 600 hz.
I know, poly cone has the most tamed resonance compared to other materials, but it's still there.
Before trying to distinguish sound of crossover components, overall design has to be fixed.
Sorry, butI think quality of crossover components in this application is irrelevant, provided that components are not defective :)
Generally speaking I would agree with you on the driver size choice, but reality is there are a lot of 8" 2-ways out there that sound pretty good. AAMOF I have Dayton 8" fullranges that sounded quite good... considering the 4K breakup mode. I am now using high-Q notch filters on them to suppress the modes and they sound freakin' awesome for the money and the simplicity. I built the first filters out of some junk parts to zero in on the design and then built them with very good components and the difference is not subtle. There is just "more" of the good stuff in the tunes with quality parts. This is important to me because I spend my day listening to music in my office/shop while soldering and building away. 'Tis the life of a small audio business man... and I love it.
There are a lot of us that will tweak anything i guess - the "Tim the Tool Man Tayor" syndrome. 8)
Dave
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8in poly woofer playing up to 2khz, doesn't sound right. 8in poly cone starts "misbehaving" around 600 hz.
I know, poly cone has the most tamed resonance compared to other materials, but it's still there.
Before trying to distinguish sound of crossover components, overall design has to be fixed.
Sorry, but I think quality of crossover components in this application is irrelevant, provided that components are not defective :)
Once again, without listening, it is you who doesn't get it.
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The DCR of the smaller gauge iron core inductor (stock) and the 16 gauge Erse XQ is pretty close.
When measuring a speaker an increase in DCR shows up in the frequency response as decreased output in the bottom end. These two measure pretty much identical.
I think the point will be made when people listen for themselves.
Hello,
Could you do me a great favor? I am away from my B2031p's and would like to order these crossover parts. Could you share the values needed for the Sonicaps and mills resistors? I got the Erse XQ Inductor. Obviously 2.0) Very much appreciate it. Thanks!
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Also, Would foil inductors have any benefit?
Thanks again!
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Also, Would foil inductors have any benefit?
Thanks again!
The difference in going to a foil inductor is very minimal and not an added expense that I'd go to for this speaker.
Hello,
Could you do me a great favor? I am away from my B2031p's and would like to order these crossover parts. Could you share the values needed for the Sonicaps and mills resistors? I got the Erse XQ Inductor. Obviously 2.0) Very much appreciate it. Thanks!
There are two caps used. They are a 4.3uF and a 10uF. The inductor is a 2.0mH and there is a single 12 ohm resistor used.
I obviously do stock all of that stuff in various price ranges. A link resistor is 60 cents. The Mills resistor is $4.90. I only have the 4.3uF value in a Sonicap. It is the tweeter cap and it is $10.60. the 10uF for the woofer I have in Erse for $3.64 and a Sonicap for $17.60. The 16 gauge Erse XQ inductor is $17.61.
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Looks like the any sayers from the peanut gallery at AVS finally found the results of Bob's listening season. :lol:
Now they think that I completely redesigned the crossover and conveniently discarded all the measurements so no one would know that they were really different. :lol:
I didn't save the impedance curves (I mentioned that already) since they were exactly the same. And how could they be anything but the same from an electrically point of view? They are the same crossover replicated with parts of the same value. Pictures were also posted. :D
I did save the more telling measurements though. I saved the measured frequency responses. Here are the measured responses of both speakers with both networks.
(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/networkcomparo1.jpg)
(http://www.gr-research.com/mis/networkcomparo2.jpg)
Differences between the two are only from minor tolerance differences in the networks. This is better than typical too. I tested the exact values of the stock crossover and matched them. My two crossovers were then matched to one another. The two stock crossovers might have a little higher tolerance between the two. For instance, the resistor in one of the stock crossovers my be a few tenths of an ohm different from one speaker to the other so there is a fractional difference in one speaker in the top end. Differences below 400Hz or so are standard deviations from one measurement to the next. I get this much difference taking two measurements back to back of the same crossover. Remember this is zoomed in at a 5db scale between each line.
So, the crossover design is the same, values are the same, measurements are the same, but the sound is very different.
I am also trying to line someone up on the West coast that can take some measurements and confirm mine.
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Oh yeah,
Who on the West coast wants to be next?
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Looks like the any sayers from the peanut gallery at AVS finally found the results of Bob's listening season. :lol:
Now they think that I completely redesigned the crossover and conveniently discarded all the measurements so no one would know that they were really different. :lol:
If you are referring to me as to the motivation of the above posts you are way off. I have a membership over there but haven't posted in years. Don't have a dog in this hunt but I did recently purchase 2 pairs of B2031P's.
(http://www.thedestinyband.com/b2031p1.jpg)
Here are the speakers that the Behringer's replaced.
(http://www.thedestinyband.com/ma11.jpg)
Disregard the RS90's on top... surround rears. Just placed on top for the pic. Bought the Behringers originally for computer desktop speakers and just for the helluvit, hooked them up to the living room system. I played the Dire Straits Brother's in Arms SACD, Michael McDonald's concert Bluray, and various BD movies and that was that! They were staying in my main system. Found them to be more efficient, incredibly dynamic, and much to my disbelief, more pleasing musically. Granted the Monitor Audio's are certainly more refined in their presentation and I suspect flatter in FR, it sounds contrived. My wife summed it up best by saying the MA's sound compressed.
I am not one of the Flat Earther's as you call them but I have recapped several speakers and know there is a difference. To me there is more space between the instruments and "air" in the highs. I run fairly high-power and have found the most easily noted differentiating factor IMO with higher quality parts is when the throttle is opened. The threshold for smearing and the sound becoming one dimensional is far lower. On the other hand, I am not about to buy moon crystals to place on my speakers either. I have to get the best bang for the buck and these units provide that in spades.
Interested in seeing if I can improve these speakers even more and that is all. (Have some more mods planned for the cabinets as well as working on the placement.) Will call tomorrow about ordering the crossover parts. Probably will not be able to get all the parts at once since I want to do three speakers and cash is tight right now. :(
Hey, come to think of it. I have another completely stock Behringer still in the box that I could easily compare with a modded version.
Hmmm... More to come.
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Interesting. The plot thickens... :o
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If you are referring to me as to the motivation of the above posts you are way off.
Nope. It wasn't you.
Be sure to follow the mods I did to these speakers in that first thread about them. There is one mod in there that you can do for free (basically) in putting a radius on the back side of the woofer hole. Adding No Rez or making yourself a cheaper DIY alternative also went a long way.
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If you are referring to me as to the motivation of the above posts you are way off. I have a membership over there but haven't posted in years. Don't have a dog in this hunt but I did recently purchase 2 pairs of B2031P's.
(http://www.thedestinyband.com/b2031p1.jpg)
Here are the speakers that the Behringer's replaced.
(http://www.thedestinyband.com/ma11.jpg)
Disregard the RS90's on top... surround rears. Just placed on top for the pic. Bought the Behringers originally for computer desktop speakers and just for the helluvit, hooked them up to the living room system. I played the Dire Straits Brother's in Arms SACD, Michael McDonald's concert Bluray, and various BD movies and that was that! They were staying in my main system. Found them to be more efficient, incredibly dynamic, and much to my disbelief, more pleasing musically. Granted the Monitor Audio's are certainly more refined in their presentation and I suspect flatter in FR, it sounds contrived. My wife summed it up best by saying the MA's sound compressed.
I am not one of the Flat Earther's as you call them but I have recapped several speakers and know there is a difference. To me there is more space between the instruments and "air" in the highs. I run fairly high-power and have found the most easily noted differentiating factor IMO with higher quality parts is when the throttle is opened. The threshold for smearing and the sound becoming one dimensional is far lower. On the other hand, I am not about to buy moon crystals to place on my speakers either. I have to get the best bang for the buck and these units provide that in spades.
Interested in seeing if I can improve these speakers even more and that is all. (Have some more mods planned for the cabinets as well as working on the placement.) Will call tomorrow about ordering the crossover parts. Probably will not be able to get all the parts at once since I want to do three speakers and cash is tight right now. :(
Hey, come to think of it. I have another completely stock Behringer still in the box that I could easily compare with a modded version.
Hmmm... More to come.
are those woofers "Enabl'd" ?? and if so what kinda difference did it make?
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Good eye!
Just did this the other night. Just the outer rings as this is incredibly time consuming for me. Also cut R13 wool strips and slid them into the ports. ( The speaker on the left, the wool fell back into the port. :duh: ) Anyway, the EnaBL treatment IMO doesn't do much to change the frequency response per se, it helps resolve detail especially in complex multi instrument music. Also the speaker tends to disappear slightly in directionality if that makes sense.
I love Steely Dan's Two Against Nature DVD played via DTS and used this as a comparison. Nice! Many electric instruments going at times and the treatment tended to improve the coherency of these passages in detail.
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Are those Monitor Audio's the Silver RS-6? My buddy has those and I thought they sounded fantastic. Then again he was driving them with a tube amp. Still, I was extremely impressed by them and would own a pair in a heartbeat. I don't recall them sounding compressed at all. Perhaps too much power wasn't so good for them.
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If you are referring to me as to the motivation of the above posts you are way off. I have a membership over there but haven't posted in years. Don't have a dog in this hunt but I did recently purchase 2 pairs of B2031P's.
The people that Danny and I were both referencing in our posts above are people that really don't post here, but seem to dog us both on the 'net. It's just life.
If you aren't leery of it, You can help those Behringers out a bunch by adding cabinet bracing on the outside of the cabinets. I use Baltic Birch when I do this. It is very stiff and takes stain, paint or veneer very well. Much easier to do this way and maintains the cabinet volume that you will need for other things.
Have fun!
Dave
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Nope. It wasn't you.
Be sure to follow the mods I did to these speakers in that first thread about them. There is one mod in there that you can do for free (basically) in putting a radius on the back side of the woofer hole. Adding No Rez or making yourself a cheaper DIY alternative also went a long way.
Sorry bout that. Misunderstood your post.
Def plan to do the cabinets as well. Woofer hole, vinyl tile and open cell foam. May even cut the front baffles off, fill the ports, and make my own cabinets. Have to figure out the port area and my math isnt very good.
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Are those Monitor Audio's the Silver RS-6?
Yes.
The Behringers are better.
Believe me, I had a hard time wrapping my head around this myself. Paid a good deal of money for the MA's and had no problem with the sound. They are beautiful speakers as well. Never noticed the dynamic range issue personally until compared with the B2031P's. The Behringers are far more dynamic and lively sounding and the waveguides fill the room.
Think about this... I had to remove the glass shelf and cut out and fit MDF to place the Behringer as a center channel. Trust me, I would never have expended this effort for nothing. Plus the wife loves the way the Monitor Audio's look but even she agreed that the Behringers were an upgrade.
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Sorry bout that. Misunderstood your post.
Def plan to do the cabinets as well. Woofer hole, vinyl tile and open cell foam. May even cut the front baffles off, fill the ports, and make my own cabinets. Have to figure out the port area and my math isnt very good.
I'm sure that reinforced or new cabinets would make a huge difference. I find that congestion in the bass and lower midrange is very often a function of cabinet problems both from flexing (panel resonance) and internal reflections. Kill those two problems and you are most of the way home.
To build proper cabinets you really need to measure T/S parameters. If you aren't set up to do so, Danny or I will both do that for no charge other than shipping. If you get serious about the new cabs, just drop us a PM and one of us will get you hooked up.
I'm very interested in the EnaBL process. I have a pair of the new Dayton PointSource 8" FR drivers that sound very good out of the box and would like to try that. Any hints you can give me would be greatly appreciated. I read about the process a while back but I've slept since then.
Dave
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I'm very interested in the EnaBL process.
Dave, I tested some of my woofers with that stuff on them and posted everything about it here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=59575.0
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Dave, I tested some of my woofers with that stuff on them and posted everything about it here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=59575.0
Crap! I forgot about that. I guess they will be close enough.
Never mind :duh:
Doh!
Dave
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Once again, who else on the West coast would like to demo these?
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Hey Danny,
If you ever decide to tour these, please let us Eastern folks know. I could round up 4-5 folks to give them a workout. 8)
Later,
Lou
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Hey Danny,
If you ever decide to tour these, please let us Eastern folks know. I could round up 4-5 folks to give them a workout. 8)
Later,
Lou
If I don't get someone stepping up to the plate soon then I may have to have them sent to the East coast. Come on guys on the West coast. This is your chance.
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If they do come to the East Coast, maybe I can go to a GTG and listen? :scratch:
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FYI: I'm sending them to Washington state today.
Bob
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Anyone else in the West or North West want to give these a shot?
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I would after the holiday.
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I would after the holiday.
Then get me all of your shipping and contact info.
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Arrived at my house yesterday, haven't had a chance to open them up yet.
If you are in Southern California I am shooting for a listening session at the end of January and will see what else I can add to the mix by then. I am in Thousand Oaks (91360).
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Looking forward to your listening session outcome!
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Arrived at my house yesterday, haven't had a chance to open them up yet.
If you are in Southern California I am shooting for a listening session at the end of January and will see what else I can add to the mix by then. I am in Thousand Oaks (91360).
I'd be up for that (if my car is willing). I'm in Burbank. I can bring my Modulas or the Alpair 12s and/or audio-gd DAC...
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Sounds good.
Don't you have some class d stuff too? I have the Virtue Two.2 with sonicaps and classic Two with auricaps as well as a connex TA3020 V2 that I haven't put together yet.
DAC wise I use the channel islands VDA-2.
Also working on a pair of OB subwoofers that are used in Danny's V2 kit.
I'd be up for that (if my car is willing). I'm in Burbank. I can bring my Modulas or the Alpair 12s and/or audio-gd DAC...
Thanks Art, should be fun!
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connex TA3020 V2 that I haven't put together yet.
I'm very curious when you get this put together what your thoughts are. I'm itching to run two of Christis TA3020 amps mono in a dual mono amp...
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Might want to check out the hifimediy T3 mono boards too.
http://hifimediy.com/?page_id=18&category=1
I'm very curious when you get this put together what your thoughts are. I'm itching to run two of Christis TA3020 amps mono in a dual mono amp...
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Question for Danny or anyone else in the know. I have the parts for the crossovers now but i am away from the actual speakers. Want to make sure of the wiring of the crossovers particularly the tweeter and I can't take a look at the actual models.
Where does the resistor figure in the circuit? It's a 12db woofer circuit so I am guessing the tweeter is wired out of phase as well. Could anyone draw a schematic? Thanks!
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Question for Danny or anyone else in the know. I have the parts for the crossovers now but i am away from the actual speakers. Want to make sure of the wiring of the crossovers particularly the tweeter and I can't take a look at the actual models.
Where does the resistor figure in the circuit? It's a 12db woofer circuit so I am guessing the tweeter is wired out of phase as well. Could anyone draw a schematic? Thanks!
Shoot me over an e-mail and I'll forward a wiring diagram to you. Send it to: info@gr-research.com
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Done! Thank you very much!
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Is anybody compiling the results of these speakers being demo'd by various folks? So far, I only see Bob's writeup, but it sounds like the speakers have been in several people's hands already.
The mud slinging on AVS is crazy, but this topic has definitely piqued my interest. I'd like to hear more about the listening results.
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Nope, I am the second person to get them and I haven't done any comparisons yet.
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Nope, I am the second person to get them and I haven't done any comparisons yet.
Nope, you are the third.
The second person was maybe not what one would call a nay sayer but maybe strongly in the objective camp. I got very little feedback from him, but in the end he did state "Yes, there's an audible difference between the two crossovers."
Funny how none of the mud slingers on AVS have stepped up and asked to audition the speakers.
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Funny how none of the mud slingers on AVS have stepped up and asked to audition the speakers.
I think most of the serious slinger's had multiple reason why they felt the audition wouldn't shed any light, due to all the changes, switch quality, etc. Too bad, since I think aside from a straight cap to cap comparison, the test would be quite revealing.
I read most of the threads, and am amazed that nobody is able to see the middle ground, where certain aspects of the argument from both sides of the fence are correct.
It would be nice to filter out all the egos and posturing, into a handful of general 'truths', or rules of thumb.
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Even if the switch quality was poor and/or had any real effect, both networks are using them. So neither will be hindered any more than the other. What amazes me is the stock crossover is basically cheap crap and they are worried about the quality of a switch. :roll:
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Nope, you are the third.
My bad. :duh:
Yeah, I really don't get why you wouldn't want to see if you can hear a difference.
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Arrived at my house yesterday, haven't had a chance to open them up yet.
If you are in Southern California I am shooting for a listening session at the end of January and will see what else I can add to the mix by then. I am in Thousand Oaks (91360).
Post the date when you know - I'd be interested depending on the date
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Anymore listening info on this?
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Got them unpacked, these are not mini monitors they are huge. :o
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It's the end of January. Anything to report?
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It's the end of January. Anything to report?
+1
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Sorry, my grandmother died last week. :icon_frown:
She lived a long, good life, but things have been very busy and difficult...
I will set them up this weekend, need a good distraction.
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Sorry, my grandmother died last week. :icon_frown:
She lived a long, good life, but things have been very busy and difficult...
I will set them up this weekend, need a good distraction.
Our prayers are with you and yours. Grandmothers are very special.
<><
Dave
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Sorry to hear that Don.
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Thanks guys!
I will get some more impressions for this thread up soon.
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Very sorry to hear about your grandmother. It is always difficult to lose a close family member.
Ron
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Sorry to hear about your loss, Don.
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Funny how none of the mud slingers on AVS have stepped up and asked to audition the speakers.
It certainly was not for want of trying.
I think most of the serious slinger's had multiple reason why they felt the audition wouldn't shed any light, due to all the changes, switch quality, etc. Too bad, since I think aside from a straight cap to cap comparison, the test would be quite revealing.
I shot down most of those arguments, including the switch. It appears that people are only interested in being right, instead of being interested in the truth. :duh:
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Danny, how much for an upgrade kit for these b2031p's(caps, no Rez, pollyfill and such)?
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Danny, how much for an upgrade kit for these b2031p's(caps, no Rez, pollyfill and such)?
If you use all Sonicaps (two of them), a Mills resistor, and the Erse XQ inductor (just like I used) then it is $50 a speaker for the parts.
One sheet of No Rez is all that is needed and it is also a big help for these. The No Rez is $38 a sheet.
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I will do my own comparison tomorrow and if anyone in southern California would like to get together on Sat, Feb. 12 send me a PM. I am located in the 91360 zip code.
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Okay, everyone loves pics. :D
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_Y763BwnG2WE/TVDeYzH2GqI/AAAAAAAABdg/gQVYJiu36fs/s800/DSCF0013.JPG)
I have spent several hours with these speakers now. To simplify the components inline I went with my Squeezebox 3 -> Channel Islands VDA-2 -> amplifier. The SB3 is playing FLAC files. I started off with my two channel amp but I was having some problems with one of the channels and switched to my home theater amp, the Outlaw 7100 (made by ATI) and was using the volume control on the SB3.
I found it very hard to make a comparison between the caps. When I compare speakers I like to play one set for a few days and live with them and then do the same with the other set. A few times back and forth and you can really get a good feel for what you like and dislike about each speaker. I was doing that on a smaller scale with the networks on these speakers by listening to an album at a time. On my older recordings I really couldn't tell much of a difference (or rather couldn't tell a difference) and I went to some of my newer recordings and there I noticed more of a difference. When listening to Eva Cassidy's "Over the Rainbow" it hit me, what was wrong there? I happened to be listening to the stock network. I switched back and listened again using the sonicap network. The way I can describe the difference is that stock network felt like it was stumbling over itself. It wasn't doing a good job of making the notes distinct. The sonicap network was better but not great.
For a period of time I had my children (nine and eleven) listening to some songs that they know well (Beatles) and there first response was the Behringers didn't sound nearly as good as our speakers. I finally came to the realization that I really don't like these speakers. They aren't terrible, but they certainly aren't great, despite what they may measure. They just don't have good, what I would call, resolution. You really can't hear the detail of the music with them. I switched back to my Onix Strata Minis and they have much better detail and clarity than the Behringers with either network.
My conclusion: I can't really tell with these speakers. I don't like listening to them and I think that any difference is lost on me. So if you are a nay sayer you could say, "See I knew it, no difference". If you believe that the quality of components make a difference then you can say, "They are only as good as the weakest link". I can see how people can hear no difference and I can also see how people can hear a big difference.
When I first cranked them up on Saturday I was using some Beethoven. I think I will go back to classical for some more listening. Thanks Danny for all your hard work. :thumb:
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Makes sense. And you clearly pointed out an audible difference. On another note, they are really ugly and cheap looking. I wouldn't want them in my living room as a main system. They look like something id gift to a family member. They're molded plastic, aren't they?
none of those idiots have come back to contend any of this. Let's just call this the obvious win that it is.
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I have no problem with whatever result you get, but you are making it hard on yourself by the way you are making the comparison.
It is a speaker that you are not used to and is really not that great to begin with. So it sounds different, you are not used to their sound, and you don't really care for them.... Playing a whole album through then switching is making it difficult from a memory retention level.
Try this: Pick a piece of music with a clean intro using an acoustic instrument. A guitar will be great. Some clean unprocessed vocals won't hurt either. But just start with the intro. Play about the first 10 to 20 seconds of it only. Play it five or six times in a row. Really listen to it and its details. Basically, memorize it. Then switch. Listen for not just the notes, but the space between the notes. Listen for the noise floor. Do the notes run together or is there is clear space. Go back an forth again.
Here is what almost always happens. You learn the differences and then can tell the differences in a few seconds. Then pick a new piece of music and try it again. You may then see that the differences that you noted in the first piece of music has transferred to then next. You then pick up the differences pretty quickly.
Once the differences are learned and well realized then you can listen to any piece of music and tell which network is being used even without comparing.
Give it a shot and see what you find.
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Try this: Pick a piece of music with a clean intro using an acoustic instrument. A guitar will be great. Some clean unprocessed vocals won't hurt either. But just start with the intro. Play about the first 10 to 20 seconds of it only. Play it five or six times in a row. Really listen to it and its details. Basically, memorize it. Then switch. Listen for not just the notes, but the space between the notes. Listen for the noise floor. Do the notes run together or is there is clear space. Go back an forth again.
Once the differences are learned and well realized then you can listen to any piece of music and tell which network is being used even without comparing.
Exactly. You and I have been talking about microdetail and microdynamics for years. There are a lot of speakers that get the notes more or less right. The timbre may differ a bit, but they sound just OK. It is the interstichial occurances in music where the really telling things happen. The release and decay of the note, the reverb tails, room reflections, mouth and breath sounds, movement on the mic and all of the other barely audible, but incredibly telling aspects of the performance is what makes a recording live and breathe in our rooms. An inferior (for audio) cap will eat all of these aspects up with dialectric absorption, dissipation factor, ESR and other parasitics.
This doesn't take into considerations on the other end like rise times. That is another discussion.
Poor caps are like a pantomime. :(
Dave
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I remember years ago when I was interested in some new speakers, back in my novice days 8), I had like 2 CDs that I knew very well and would go around listening to the opening 10-20 seconds of some of the songs. I found that each speaker was different in how it presented some of the nuances.
There was one particular "sound" from one of the songs, it lasted only a few seconds, that I found myself focusing on. It was located on the far left side of the soundstage. On the lesser resolving speakers, I couldn't make out what it was...it was just a dull sound. On the better resolving speakers, I could tell it was a piano! Once I knew that, no matter how much I might have liked a speaker, if it couldn't provide that level of detail, that level of resolution, and let me know it was a piano over there, I couldn't get myself to buy it.
Gary
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I remember years ago when I was interested in some new speakers, back in my novice days 8), I had like 2 CDs that I knew very well and would go around listening to the opening 10-20 seconds of some of the songs. I found that each speaker was different in how it presented some of the nuances.
There was one particular "sound" from one of the songs, it lasted only a few seconds, that I found myself focusing on. It was located on the far left side of the soundstage. On the lesser resolving speakers, I couldn't make out what it was...it was just a dull sound. On the better resolving speakers, I could tell it was a piano! Once I knew that, no matter how much I might have liked a speaker, if it couldn't provide that level of detail, that level of resolution, and let me know it was a piano over there, I couldn't get myself to buy it.
Gary
There you go... resolution of microdetail and microdynamics.
One of my favorite recordings for this kind of thing is Roxy Music "Avalon" from AVALON. The reverb on the background singer is exquisite... on the right system. Another is "Folkways" from Sam Cardon and Kurt Bestor's first INNOVATORS CD. It is just a great recording all the way around.
Dave
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Will do, thanks.
Try this: Pick a piece of music with a clean intro using an acoustic instrument. A guitar will be great. Some clean unprocessed vocals won't hurt either. But just start with the intro. Play about the first 10 to 20 seconds of it only. Play it five or six times in a row. Really listen to it and its details. Basically, memorize it. Then switch. Listen for not just the notes, but the space between the notes. Listen for the noise floor. Do the notes run together or is there is clear space. Go back an forth again.
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Danny: what do you think of the beginning of "Never Going Back Again" for speaker testing? I find with most "high end" commercial speakers you find at boutique stores that it brings out the harshness of their overly bright tweeters quite well. On the other hand, when I played it on the Revel Salon Ultimas, I thought "this sounds clean, clear, natural, and pleasant". :)
I want to hear these. I live in Columbus, OH. I have a pair of the stock ones currently.
I assume that difference in sound of capacitors is, at most, subtle.
I think (based on the scientific tests I have read about) that difference in sound of cables is patently absurd, if the resistance is not different. My bias towards cable sound is probably too strong for me to be able to hear, if there was actually a difference.
However, I feel that I am open to hearing a cap sound difference, even though I am skeptical.
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Danny: what do you think of the beginning of "Never Going Back Again" for speaker testing? I find with most "high end" commercial speakers you find at boutique stores that it brings out the harshness of their overly bright tweeters quite well. On the other hand, when I played it on the Revel Salon Ultimas, I thought "this sounds clean, clear, natural, and pleasant". :)
I want to hear these. I live in Columbus, OH. I have a pair of the stock ones currently.
I assume that difference in sound of capacitors is, at most, subtle.
I think (based on the scientific tests I have read about) that difference in sound of cables is patently absurd, if the resistance is not different. My bias towards cable sound is probably too strong for me to be able to hear, if there was actually a difference.
However, I feel that I am open to hearing a cap sound difference, even though I am skeptical.
What you: "assume, think and read" may be simply wrong. Do yourself a favor and make the effort to learn something instead of making comments like "patently absurd" in a forum where people know better. In this setting it will just lead to a shouting match and none of us really want that. Reality trumps disinformation every time. There is always the possibility that you can't hear the differences for physiological differences, but I very much doubt that. You listen to music and hit several forums. "I read it in a book" isn't 'listening'.
Kick back and enjoy. This is a great place to learn :thumb:
Dave
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I want to hear these. I live in Columbus, OH. I have a pair of the stock ones currently.
No problem.
I think (based on the scientific tests I have read about) that difference in sound of cables is patently absurd, if the resistance is not different. My bias towards cable sound is probably too strong for me to be able to hear, if there was actually a difference.
Give us details about your system so we can see what we are dealing with and I will be glad to send you some cables to sample too. Then you can hear for yourself whether or not it is absurd.
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Give us details about your system so we can see what we are dealing with and I will be glad to send you some cables to sample too. Then you can hear for yourself whether or not it is absurd.
Hmm - well I guess this is not the place to try to say why or even my opinion, about cables - sorry? My background a little first, then my listening situation...
When I was a kid my dad owned a stereo store which had a record store adjacent to it (~ 1970s). My birthday present when I was eight was a Dyna SCA-35 Integrated Tube Amp ( http://www.quadesl.com/refurb/refurb_dynaSCA35.html ), a Gerard? turntable, and a pair of "db" brand 2-way 8" paper woofer / paper cone tweeter (aluminum dust cap) vented bookshelf speakers. For many many years I enjoyed listening to music with that system - there was nothing unpleasant about the sound, listening to music was simply enjoyable. I lost all of that gear eventually for various reasons.
Flash forward to the most recent decade or so, [almost] all the commercial speakers I listen to have a sound ranging from mediocre to terrible. Stuff at Best Buy is just weak, flimsy resonant boxes, cheap easily distorting woofers, metal/mylar tweeters with FR like a roller coaster... And the "high end" stuff? Well, take something like mid/high end B&W for example - as soon as they start playing my ears start hurting from the overly bright harsh tweeters. I've gone to audition in Manhattan, Tokyo, various other places listening to speakers ranging from $100 - $20,000 (have not bothered to listen to anything above that price range). And the only speakers I actually really liked were the Madrigal Revel Salon Ultimas. So, I read up on them, read about the Harmon group and their test labs...
Other related experience: I spent a few years working with a gentleman who has been in the audio speaker industry for over 30 years, he's worked with the likes of Bob Carver (he built the first prototype for Bob's Sunfire sub, for example (still has it on the shelf at his factory) etc. etc. I discussed with him in depth the possibility of different cables "sounding" different and he went over many tests that he has personally conducted and testing that other people and companies have done, personal conversations he'd had with folks like Floyd Toole..... In conclusion, after decades of experience with various sorts of testing with many different sorts of people participating there was one type of situation where there was a genuine audible difference between different speaker cables and that was: cables that were thin enough that there was a significantly greater resistance, which, has a varying degree of effect changing with frequency. So, I didn't "just read it in a book somewhere".
As to my listening situation - I've got an Onkyo TX-DS787 receiver, various T-amps, a Sure 4 x 100 Tripath chip amp, a cheap old Sony receiver, and a Jolida 102B amp which, unfortuantely, is in need of repair. For a source I use either an old Sony CD changer, a portable CD player, or FLAC files on my PC played through Foobar2000. I have various soundcards including some with > 100 db sn ratio and a Berhinger 1024USB mixer with external USB sound in / out.
As to the idea of different amps sounding different, I would say that between solid state amps the difference should be insignificant relative to the differences between different speakers / rooms. I'm not saying there isn't a difference, I'm saying, logically, it should be so small as to be irrelevant [so long as there is ample headroom and the dynamic peaks of the music you are playing can be adequately driven by your amp]. Despite that, I do typically "feel" that my Onkyo amp is somehow "cold" sounding. It has plenty of power - given a good pair of speakers capable of playing loud and clean, I can play music loud enough to feel like I'm at front + center stage at a rock concert. When I had a friend over who was a "metal" fan and played some Ministry at "reference level, - 0.0 db, his jaw dropped at how loud, clean, and clear the sound was. But... that system (and various similar configurations as I mixed and matched) just didn't give me the enjoyment that I had had with the cheap old system I used to have. Music wasn't "engaging", didn't have the same vibrancy/energy + therapeutic soothing appeal that I missed.
The best illustration I can give as to what I'm seeking, that is missing is: if you listen to a cello in an intimate setting you don't just hear the music - you feel the vibration on your skin, through the floor with your feet, it moves you viscerally. The only time I could come close to that was when I listened in my car with the subwoofer on at volumes that damaged my hearing.
I have designed speakers which are a commercial succes and received rave reviews. I think they are decent, as far as speakers in the ~$1,000 price range go. They do some things really well, and it was fun to demo them and see how surprised people got when they heard them. But, compared to the $20K Ultimas, there are some areas where they don't quite reach the same level of performance.
I have started quite a few designs for myself, but always stopped part way through as I find deficiencies... (And my wife tells me to come inside from the garage - we've got a couple kids now and I have a non-speaker related job, and am a full time college student again after a ~20 year hiatus).
I bought a pair of the B2031P thinking back to how I had enjoyed my old 8" bookshelf speakers, wishing to just enjoy some music on a modest system again - currently sitting on my desk they're a little too boomy, and there's a little harshness to the tweeters (perhaps the vents cause some audible diffraction issues?). I suppose I could enjoy listening to them if I adjust the bass, add a couple braces to the cabinet, but most of all, forget about listening to speakers and not be critical - just pretend I don't know any better :)
EDIT: Do you think any of the mid-range capacitors sold at parts express would be adequate for hearing a difference? I wouldn't mind buying some caps and inductors and replicating your crossover switch experiment. I would setup a toggle switch so I could instantly switch back and forth. I am a skeptic, but, I am also willing to try.
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Do yourself a favor and make the effort to learn something instead of making comments like "patently absurd" in a forum where people know better.
Uh...right....
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Uh...right....
It's his subforum ("circle") - I'm sorry I said it that way - I hope my last (long) post isn't too offensive...
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Flash forward to the most recent decade or so, [almost] all the commercial speakers I listen to have a sound ranging from mediocre to terrible. Stuff at Best Buy is just weak, flimsy resonant boxes, cheap easily distorting woofers, metal/mylar tweeters with FR like a roller coaster... And the "high end" stuff? Well, take something like mid/high end B&W for example - as soon as they start playing my ears start hurting from the overly bright harsh tweeters.
You are very correct on all of those accounts. So we know you can hear. :wink:
I've gone to audition in Manhattan, Tokyo, various other places listening to speakers ranging from $100 - $20,000
As you move up the food chain you can get into some really good stuff, but not always. Price is not always a way to measure performance in this hobby. There are ways to get there without spending a lot of money and if you stick around we'll get you there if that's where you want to go.
Unfortunately most of your gear is along those same lines as some of those commercial speakers that you described. Your Jolita amp (that needs repair) might be your only real piece that gets out of the budget performance range. However, the T-amps have proven to be pretty transparent and can sound like whatever the front end is that you are using them with. An off the grid T-amp can work pretty well with efficient speakers.
Also, as you move up the food chain you will find that everything effects everything and it is harder to find gear that sounds the same than sounds different. Everything tends to sound different in some way.
If you wanted to listen to the effects and differences of cables then I typically like to start with the power. Sounds like most of your gear may not have removable power cords though.
Do you think any of the mid-range capacitors sold at parts express would be adequate for hearing a difference?
They will be better than the cheap electrolytic stuff used in a lot of those mass marketed speakers at Best Buy, but not a lot different than the caps in your Behringer's.
I'd start with comparing the speakers. You can compare the demo pair with the stock crossovers to yours and then try the upgraded crossovers in the demo pair and see (or hear) what the differences are for yourself and then go from there.
There is also some speaker cables that come with the demo Behringer's so you can make some comparisons with that too.
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It's his subforum ("circle") - I'm sorry I said it that way - I hope my last (long) post isn't too offensive...
Not at all. It is my hope that I didn't come off combative in mine, either.
I made my "read it in a book" comment in response to this statement in your first post: "I think (based on the scientific tests I have read about) that difference in sound of cables is patently absurd, if the resistance is not different." I can guarantee you that I can take two 5' long pieces of wire cut from a single 10' long piece, do a few voodoo passes, pour a little 'snakeoil' on one of them and have two seemingly identical pieces of wire that sound curiously different, if not amazingly so. :lol: I do it all of the time and have built a good business on that premise and process. I NEVER get cables back from my customers even with a 30 day 'no questions asked or needed' return policy. Who knew? Certainly not I 15 years ago. :scratch:
After reading your background I can absolutely understand where you are coming from in regards to all of this. Basically it is the same place that we all "came from". As I have stated on numerous occasions on the PE forum I was an adamant flat earth, objectivist when before I really started to "learn" about audio. This was after more than 20 years hold steadfastly to my belief system. Fortunately an wise theoretical physiscist got a hold on me and told me something that I will never forget: "Frankly speaking, even with all of the knowledge that he cling to we really don't fully understand why most of this works. Remember - I am a theoretical physicist." He gave me my first VHQ capacitors and clued me in to the POOGE thing. You know: Progressive Optimization Of Otherwise Generic Equipment. By the time I was done, I had completely rebuilt my NAD 3140 amplifier into a freaking sonic monster for very little $$$. So began my road to perdition... and my never ending quest as to "Why" and "How".
AC is a great place to draw upon the exoerience of many others that have made similar journeys. Wwe still have a few Pooh-poohers, but most of us are here because we have given up on trying to add to the knowledge base in other forums (and I know that you know what I mean) and are here to have a common level of communication where we can build upon the existing art of audio. It is a science, for sure, but the real joy comes from listening to something that we have built, massaged , tweaked and made it the absolute best that it can be. There is a very large "who knew" quotient in audio.
Opinions are always welcomed here. It is just best to not come out swinging as a new poster. That was my point.
As for caps that are good from PE the Jantzens are a step up from the Solens and lack the graininess that Solens have to my ears. The Z-Standard is quite good. The Dayton caps don't suck. but are a little (and when I say a little I mean a little closed in in comparison to the Z-Caps. Wolf is a great resource on caps, too. I would suggest, however, that you give the Sonicaps a try. They are worth it IME.
Remember that the series capacitor and the series attenuating resistor are a system. If you change out the cap be sure to change the resistor to a Mills.
I sincerely hope that you enjoy your journey here at AC. It is a great place with great people that won't bust your chops just for sport :D That is a very good thing.
My best,
Dave
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I am a skeptic, but, I am also willing to try.
Oh yeah. I second what Dave said. We have all been there.
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It's his subforum ("circle") - I'm sorry I said it that way - I hope my last (long) post isn't too offensive...
Hello
To me the post sounded way more mis-informed than offensive. I have grown used to it like most others here so its not a big deal.
The thing with hearing a difference in cables and internal tweaks like caps is the caliber of gear you are gauging the tweaks with. Typically HT recievers are not a great listening tool to do this and this includes the expensive ones. They just aren't, infact people find and including myself differences are only heard by changing out Brands amongst recievers. Thats because they are just not sensitive enough to respond to changes in cables and small internal changes.
That brings me to my point. Gear now and including gear built by Danny are very sensitive to changes. You start seeing sensitive gear in more audiophile brands including brands from manufactures on this board. Like GR research, Purity audio and Bryston. These caliber of electronics will give you the engineering that will respond to small changes in pretty much every thing you do to it.
So listen to Danny he knows his stuff and he doesn't put his business ahead of the hobby. He tells it like it is. :thumb:
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he doesn't put his business ahead of the hobby. He tells it like it is. :thumb:
His business is his hobby. :wink: :lol:
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His business is his hobby. :wink: :lol:
Yah i know that....hehe. But i see tons of speaker manufactures misinforming people about the importance/unimportance of partnering electronics to make their speakers look better then they are. Not interested pointing fingers but lets just leave it at that.
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Hello
The thing with hearing a difference in cables and internal tweaks like caps is the caliber of gear you are gauging the tweaks with. Typically HT recievers are not a great listening tool to do this and this includes the expensive ones. They just aren't, infact people find and including myself differences are only heard by changing out Brands amongst recievers. Thats because they are just not sensitive enough to respond to changes in cables and small internal changes.
So listen to Danny he knows his stuff and he doesn't put his business ahead of the hobby. He tells it like it is. :thumb:
The problem with most HT Receivers or receivers in general is the 6-10 crappy electrolytic coupling capacitors in the signal path along with the switching. It is like trying to pour a gallon of liquid through a garden hose all at once.
With Danny, as well as many of us "little guys" our hobby became an obsession that turned into a business that is still our hobby. I love workinng in the industry of enjoyment and satisfaction... most of the time :D
Dave
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The problem with most HT Receivers or receivers in general is the 6-10 crappy electrolytic coupling capacitors in the signal path along with the switching. It is like trying to pour a gallon of liquid through a garden hose all at once.
With Danny, as well as many of us "little guys" our hobby became an obsession that turned into a business that is still our hobby. I love workinng in the industry of enjoyment and satisfaction... most of the time :D
Dave
Hehe.... O and the quality of AC too. Any potential differences will be washed away by lousy AC. Very often if you plug a receiver into the wall the quality of AC will destroy any potential for hearing differences (if there was any to begin with). Its just the way the hobby has played out. You need good AC, its one of the first things you find out when you start taking it seriously.
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Hehe.... O and the quality of AC too. Any potential differences will be washed away by lousy AC. Very often if you plug a receiver into the wall the quality of AC will destroy any potential for hearing differences (if there was any to begin with). Its just the way the hobby has played out. You need good AC, its one of the first things you find out when you start taking it seriously.
Do ya THINK!!! :rotflmao:
:thumb:
Dave
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Do ya THINK!!! :rotflmao:
:thumb:
Dave
don't know.... i was just throwing it out there..... :lol:
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Funny you would mention your friend workiing with Bob Carver...... go to one of the Carver sites
and look into what he says when someone wants to change the wiring on one of his open baffle creations :nono:
His take on all amps sound the same is a little different also....
Stick with Danny, hes a great designer and teacher.....My V1s sound better than most I have heard at almost any price point :o
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Hmm - well I guess this is not the place to try to say why or even my opinion, about cables - sorry? My background a little first, then my listening situation...
When I was a kid my dad owned a stereo store which had a record store adjacent to it (~ 1970s). My birthday present when I was eight was a Dyna SCA-35 Integrated Tube Amp ( http://www.quadesl.com/refurb/refurb_dynaSCA35.html ), a Gerard? turntable, and a pair of "db" brand 2-way 8" paper woofer / paper cone tweeter (aluminum dust cap) vented bookshelf speakers. For many many years I enjoyed listening to music with that system - there was nothing unpleasant about the sound, listening to music was simply enjoyable. I lost all of that gear eventually for various reasons.
Flash forward to the most recent decade or so, [almost] all the commercial speakers I listen to have a sound ranging from mediocre to terrible. Stuff at Best Buy is just weak, flimsy resonant boxes, cheap easily distorting woofers, metal/mylar tweeters with FR like a roller coaster... And the "high end" stuff? Well, take something like mid/high end B&W for example - as soon as they start playing my ears start hurting from the overly bright harsh tweeters. I've gone to audition in Manhattan, Tokyo, various other places listening to speakers ranging from $100 - $20,000 (have not bothered to listen to anything above that price range). And the only speakers I actually really liked were the Madrigal Revel Salon Ultimas. So, I read up on them, read about the Harmon group and their test labs...
Other related experience: I spent a few years working with a gentleman who has been in the audio speaker industry for over 30 years, he's worked with the likes of Bob Carver (he built the first prototype for Bob's Sunfire sub, for example (still has it on the shelf at his factory) etc. etc. I discussed with him in depth the possibility of different cables "sounding" different and he went over many tests that he has personally conducted and testing that other people and companies have done, personal conversations he'd had with folks like Floyd Toole..... In conclusion, after decades of experience with various sorts of testing with many different sorts of people participating there was one type of situation where there was a genuine audible difference between different speaker cables and that was: cables that were thin enough that there was a significantly greater resistance, which, has a varying degree of effect changing with frequency. So, I didn't "just read it in a book somewhere".
As to my listening situation - I've got an Onkyo TX-DS787 receiver, various T-amps, a Sure 4 x 100 Tripath chip amp, a cheap old Sony receiver, and a Jolida 102B amp which, unfortuantely, is in need of repair. For a source I use either an old Sony CD changer, a portable CD player, or FLAC files on my PC played through Foobar2000. I have various soundcards including some with > 100 db sn ratio and a Berhinger 1024USB mixer with external USB sound in / out.
As to the idea of different amps sounding different, I would say that between solid state amps the difference should be insignificant relative to the differences between different speakers / rooms. I'm not saying there isn't a difference, I'm saying, logically, it should be so small as to be irrelevant [so long as there is ample headroom and the dynamic peaks of the music you are playing can be adequately driven by your amp]. Despite that, I do typically "feel" that my Onkyo amp is somehow "cold" sounding. It has plenty of power - given a good pair of speakers capable of playing loud and clean, I can play music loud enough to feel like I'm at front + center stage at a rock concert. When I had a friend over who was a "metal" fan and played some Ministry at "reference level, - 0.0 db, his jaw dropped at how loud, clean, and clear the sound was. But... that system (and various similar configurations as I mixed and matched) just didn't give me the enjoyment that I had had with the cheap old system I used to have. Music wasn't "engaging", didn't have the same vibrancy/energy + therapeutic soothing appeal that I missed.
The best illustration I can give as to what I'm seeking, that is missing is: if you listen to a cello in an intimate setting you don't just hear the music - you feel the vibration on your skin, through the floor with your feet, it moves you viscerally. The only time I could come close to that was when I listened in my car with the subwoofer on at volumes that damaged my hearing.
I have designed speakers which are a commercial succes and received rave reviews. I think they are decent, as far as speakers in the ~$1,000 price range go. They do some things really well, and it was fun to demo them and see how surprised people got when they heard them. But, compared to the $20K Ultimas, there are some areas where they don't quite reach the same level of performance.
I have started quite a few designs for myself, but always stopped part way through as I find deficiencies... (And my wife tells me to come inside from the garage - we've got a couple kids now and I have a non-speaker related job, and am a full time college student again after a ~20 year hiatus).
I bought a pair of the B2031P thinking back to how I had enjoyed my old 8" bookshelf speakers, wishing to just enjoy some music on a modest system again - currently sitting on my desk they're a little too boomy, and there's a little harshness to the tweeters (perhaps the vents cause some audible diffraction issues?). I suppose I could enjoy listening to them if I adjust the bass, add a couple braces to the cabinet, but most of all, forget about listening to speakers and not be critical - just pretend I don't know any better :)
EDIT: Do you think any of the mid-range capacitors sold at parts express would be adequate for hearing a difference? I wouldn't mind buying some caps and inductors and replicating your crossover switch experiment. I would setup a toggle switch so I could instantly switch back and forth. I am a skeptic, but, I am also willing to try.
I know this is off topic, but how do you like the SURE 100x4 Tripath amp board? I see them at PE advertised alot.
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I'm sorry to say that I've only listened to it with a 1 amp wall wart thus far, I would say it sounds good, but I'm not giving it enough power to turn it up to a decent loud level for proper evaluation.
I will need to haul my big Onkyo receiver in from the garage, buy an SPL meter (or, measure a sin sweep with my mic using my PC) to set the levels equal, hookup the proper power supply I got in the mail the other week and do a proper A/B comparison...
An even better option would be buying the replacement caps I need to repair my Jolida tube amp and throw that in the mix. :)
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Thanks! That was what I was looking for. I have two of the SURE 2x100's on order with a 24V @ 6A power supply! :D
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Will do, thanks.
Quote from: Danny on 9 Feb 2011, 08:32 AM
Try this: Pick a piece of music with a clean intro using an acoustic instrument. A guitar will be great. Some clean unprocessed vocals won't hurt either. But just start with the intro. Play about the first 10 to 20 seconds of it only. Play it five or six times in a row. Really listen to it and its details. Basically, memorize it. Then switch. Listen for not just the notes, but the space between the notes. Listen for the noise floor. Do the notes run together or is there is clear space. Go back an forth again.
Well, have you had time to give it a shot yet?
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This weekend, didn't get to it last weekend; will be ready to send this out to someone else next week. Unfortunately, I didn't have the time to put on a get together, but hopefully someone else in SoCal can step up to the plate.
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Hey Fellows,
Don just has not had time to get back on these and do another listening comparison so I need to move these to the next person interested in taking the demo.
Shoot me an e-mail if you are interested, info@gr-research.com
Thanks,
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No one else in this area? Wow, where did all the wire is wire guys go?
Free demo with chance to learn something....
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No one else in this area? Wow, where did all the wire is wire guys go?
Free demo with chance to learn something....
Hmm, strange, isn't it? I've found that the folks with the strongest opinions rarely want to learn something.
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Hmm, strange, isn't it? I've found that the folks with the strongest opinions rarely want to learn something.
Ditto!
Danny,
Please put me on the list of people who want to audition this unit when it tours the east coast.
L
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Right now with no more interest on the West coast, and several interested now on the East coast, it might be time for a trip across the country.
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Danny, why don't you put up a signup list that is more generic. I am sure there have to be people in SoCal, however, unless you know the context or read everything in the GR circle, the thread title is not instructive.
BTW: the kids (9 and 11) and I are conducting a retest as per guidelines this evening and I will post the results.
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Danny, why don't you put up a signup list that is more generic. I am sure there have to be people in SoCal, however, unless you know the context or read everything in the GR circle, the thread title is not instructive.
BTW: the kids (9 and 11) and I are conducting a retest as per guidelines this evening and I will post the results.
How many months have you had these now? :scratch:
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Yep, been ready to send them out for quite some time.
Life has been busy as a single parent with two young kids, a full-time job, a death in the family, and school work...
How many months have you had these now? :scratch:
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No one else in this area? Wow, where did all the wire is wire guys go?
Free demo with chance to learn something....
Danny,
I think you might have gotten a much better participation in this "experiment" if you hadn't set such a condescending tone with the title and premise of the thread. Calling (some) folks "nay-sayers, and flat-earthers" and doing so with an instructors tone is just not appropriate.
What we have here is a simple box speaker (with all its inherent problems) with two crossovers set for the exact same transfer functions. Before I even listened to the speakers I verified that aspect of the experiment by measuring the electrical transfer functions directly at the driver terminals. (Unfortunately, I had to repair both speakers before I could even do that.) :) There is a slight difference in the woofer transfer functions, but not enough to really worry about.
Anyways, the listening tests didn't take me long. I didn't like the sound of the speakers with either crossover engaged so I quickly lost interest and re-boxed them. :) That being said, it wasn't difficult to hear minor audible differences between the two crossovers. Which one I "preferred" is not really relevant and I wouldn't want to influence any future auditioners.
One suggestion I do have for future auditioners is to make sure you have an assistant do the switching so you (the listener) has no knowledge of which crossover is being utilized.
The concept of the test, I guess, is a valid one, if the implementation is done correctly (which Danny did.) However, the conclusion may be somewhat "gray" if a person is determined to hear what he/she wants to hear.
Thank you for taking the time to modify the Behringer speakers and thanks for giving me a phone call to check up on my progress. Unfortunately, I think the primary thing to be "learned" here is how disappointing the sound of box speakers can be. :)
Cheers,
Dave.
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I think you might have gotten a much better participation in this "experiment" if you hadn't set such a condescending tone with the title and premise of the thread. Calling (some) folks "nay-sayers, and flat-earthers" and doing so with an instructors tone is just not appropriate.
Sorry Dave, but that was not the intent of the title. I stated it that way to get everyone's attention. 16,500 views later and it looks like it worked.
I am sorry that you had to make a few repairs. But really appreciate you taking care of them. Additional switches had to be added to each crossover after it was all installed. Working inside the box and adding several switches, wire, etc, certainly did not get my best assembly work. UPS is not exactly gentle with that stuff either. But I really do appreciate the re-solder job.
I have to agree that they are not exactly great speakers. But it is a good platform to show the differences better quality components can make.
Thanks again.
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Took some timeout to spend about an hour setting up and doing the retest with my son.
I knew which networks were in use so we chose a song that we both are familiar with. He is a Beatles fan so we picked "Blackbird".
We listened all the way through a couple of times and then started switching back and forth with a 30 second segment (a minute into the song).
A few times back and forth and my son couldn't tell much of a difference. Then at one point he said that one of the networks sounded "cleaner", his words. I was, however, to get him guessing which network was active and he chose the other network as the "cleaner" one.
I agree with his assessment, on these speakers there isn't much of a difference between the two networks. I don't know if I would have been able to pick them out blind.
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any updates?
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Haven't heard anything on where to ship them to. I hope it isn't all the way to the east coast because that is going to cost a boatload... Would be nice to get a new thread with clear title and signup list.
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Haven't heard anything on where to ship them to. I hope it isn't all the way to the east coast because that is going to cost a boatload... Would be nice to get a new thread with clear title and signup list.
Did you get a chance to listen again as your above post mentioned? I'd be curious in your final results.
Hopefully some people across the country will be interested so you don't have to pay for a cross country trip.
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Did you get a chance to listen again as your above post mentioned? I'd be curious in your final results.
This was my final testing. I let my son be the judge since he has no bias and young ears. I totally agreed with his conclusions. I don't think these speakers have the resolution to really be able to tell a big difference. I think one of the early posts said 6/10 people could hear a difference in the group test. I totally buy that.
My takeaway is invest in good speakers and electronics then start tweaking with caps. I can tell the difference between sonicaps and auricaps in electronics, they have a different sound. Or, I should say the auricaps have a signature and the sonicaps sound neutral to my ears. I really don't like these speakers so it is hard for me to appreciate subtle differences as both networks sound mediocre compared to the speakers I have listened to in the last couple years: Ref 100, Strata Mini, TCA WAF-1, and GR Neo 2X.
I will be upgrading the caps in my Strata Minis this summer. Perhaps I will do one speaker and then do an A/B mono test.Since I like the speaker and know the sound I will be able to tell a more subtle difference.
Took some timeout to spend about an hour setting up and doing the retest with my son.
I knew which networks were in use so we chose a song that we both are familiar with. He is a Beatles fan so we picked "Blackbird".
We listened all the way through a couple of times and then started switching back and forth with a 30 second segment (a minute into the song).
A few times back and forth and my son couldn't tell much of a difference. Then at one point he said that one of the networks sounded "cleaner", his words. I was, however, to get him guessing which network was active and he chose the other network as the "cleaner" one.
I agree with his assessment, on these speakers there isn't much of a difference between the two networks. I don't know if I would have been able to pick them out blind.
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I think one of the early posts said 6/10 people could hear a difference in the group test.
Much higher than that. From the first group...
Overall, 88% of participants (7/8) heard "unmistakably clear" differences between the two crossovers. In addition, 75% (6/8) considered the modded speakers "a commendable bargain" at a $600/pr price point.
Next stop was Davey. I don't think Davey expected to hear a difference. However, he stated....
That being said, it wasn't difficult to hear minor audible differences between the two crossovers.
In my rig the difference was pretty significant, but I have a very resolving rig.
One more chance for someone on the West coast and then they are headed East...
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Danny, I'd be interested in giving a listen, but I'm afraid there's no group that I could gather together for a listen, just me and perhaps my DW if she's inclined to indulge me. I've been curious since the git-go. Is a stop in Boise, ID a possibility? How to start the ball rolling?
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Danny, I'd be interested in giving a listen, but I'm afraid there's no group that I could gather together for a listen, just me and perhaps my DW if she's inclined to indulge me. I've been curious since the git-go. Is a stop in Boise, ID a possibility? How to start the ball rolling?
Sure, just send me all of your contact info and call me on Monday with the CC info for security.
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You know what, I'd love to try these. My Vitue Two.2 should be here in a few days so I'll have a proper amplifier to test this out on and I also have proper weighted monitor stands. This will be an excellent learning opportunity.
Please put me on the list.
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Much higher than that. From the first group...
Next stop was Davey. I don't think Davey expected to hear a difference. However, he stated....
In my rig the difference was pretty significant, but I have a very resolving rig.
Well, I think we have some flawed logic rearing its ugly head here. :) The "resolvingness" of the upstream "rig" had/has no effect on an evaluation such as this because it's a constant.
And anyway, who's to say how resolving my upstream rig is? Danny, you don't have any idea what upstream system (I have many at my disposal) I used to make this evaluation.
Cheers,
Dave.
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... He quoted you, nothing more :scratch:
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... He quoted you, nothing more :scratch:
+1
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He said, "In my rig the difference was pretty significant, but I have a very resolving rig."
The inference is that a very/more resolving rig will highlight the differences further. I read it that way. Do you fellas not read it that way?
Dave.
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The inference is that a very/more resolving rig will highlight the differences further. I read it that way. Do you fellas not read it that way?
yes
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.... Isn't that also part of it, common sense? I don't understand how that ruffles feathers?
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... and the fact is that Danny simply does have a top level rig. However, I think you can buy his amps and preamp from him--- if you've got around $35-40K sitting around. For another 3-6 thousand you can include a pair of LS9's or SuperV's.
And a better rig is usually more resolving.
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And anyway, who's to say how resolving my upstream rig is? Danny, you don't have any idea what upstream system (I have many at my disposal) I used to make this evaluation.
I didn't say anything about your rig.
And yes, a more resolving rig makes it very easy to hear the differences in the two networks compared to one that is less resolving.
It is kind of like trying to discern the difference in the picture quality of two TV's. It is much easier when you don't have mud all over your glasses.
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No, it's really not like that at all. :) The analogy is poor.
I can see how this comparison concept might be confusing to yourself and some other folks because it's not intuitively obvious.
You did a fine job configuring these speakers for an apples-to-apples comparison. However, the "resolving power" of the front end rig is not a variable in this experiment......only the crossovers themselves.
To turn this into a real "learning opportunity" for your peeps, you should identify and publish (after all the auditioning is done) the objective aspects of the "quality" crossover and compare them to the stock crossover to analyze the differences. Subjective evaluations exclusively can only conclude so much.
I urge you to think about it further.
Cheers,
Dave.
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I urge you to think about it further.
I would urge you the same.
The fact is that if everything upstream has so degraded the signal to such a degree that clearing it up in only one area of the chain may not be as obvious.
However, on a system that is very clear and completely transparent it is very easy to hear the degrading effect of just one thing in the chain.
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It is kind of like trying to discern the difference in the picture quality of two TV's. It is much easier when you don't have mud all over your glasses.
To able to distinguish the audio differences between the 2 sets of capacitors one needs to have "experienced/trained ears". Most purveyors of audio equipments are trained to listen to minute differences in audio qualities because they listen to music constantly. They and some audiophiles are in a better position to distinguished the differences.
At one stage I was comparing differences in coupling capacitors in tube amplifiers that I lost the big picture of good engineering design. The differences are minute only a trained ears were able tot detect them. The real audio differences lie in std caps(polyester) and polypropylene caps is large and polypropylene caps from different suppliers the audio differences are small(only in nuance). To spend lots of money on getting the "best" caps is only a waste of good hard earned money in my opinion.
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To able to distinguish the audio differences between the 2 sets of capacitors one needs to have "experienced/trained ears".
Actually if you conduct the comparison properly the untrained/non-audiophile works just as well.
The key to many of the comparisons is memory retention. You can't overload that capacity and expect any reasonable results. Repeating short segments allows an inexperienced listener to quickly learn the subtleties that change between each comparison.
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I never knew how bitter a person could become after age and hearing loss until I joined an audio forum.
"If I can't hear it by god no one can and that's that!"
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Behringers showed up today, thanks Dave.
Danny, as I recall our conversation, you said to NOT hook all four speaker leads simultaneously, but rather use only the "switched on" network connections...correct?
Just so I understand, what would the downside be to hooking all four at once?
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Danny, as I recall our conversation, you said to NOT hook all four speaker leads simultaneously, but rather use only the "switched on" network connections...correct?
Yes, connect one or the other.
Just so I understand, what would the downside be to hooking all four at once?
If I remember correctly it would connect the shut parts in both networks if you did that.
Top connectors and switches all up, or bottom connectors (tube connectors) and all switches down.
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My impressions after listening:
As Danny suggested I used familiar snippets of music and also did some casual listening.
The Tester:
I’d describe myself as mostly neutral on the general subject of wires, interconnects, network components and such, so this was an interesting endeavor. My dad taught me zipcord… later I concluded there was something better, but drew the line at what smells of snake oil or carries an outlandish price tag. Yep, it’s mostly subjective… although, truth be told, if I had more money to spend on gear I’d try some esoterica just to satisfy my curiosity. No agenda except to gather knowledge. My hearing isn’t perfect, I certainly don’t have golden ears but love music and the stuff that reproduces it.
The Gear: Cary CD308 CD player, Musical Fidelity A3 integrated amp, Goertz Micro-Purl interconnects, PS Audio Power Plant. Speaker cables are whatever Danny included. Setup is shown in pic.
FWIW: I was a little surprised by the Behringers, especially considering their price tag.
Primary Music Snippets, all at beginning of track to facilitate repeating.
“The Be Good Tanyas – Blue Horse”, track # 2, Broken Telephone
Leads in with what sounds like an ocean wave background and an acoustic guitar.
“Eleanor McElroy – Yola”, track #1 I Got You To See Me Through”
Lead in is strummed guitar?(maybe steel or Dobro), and single notes on Piano.
“Vienna Teng – Warm Strangers” track #8, Homecoming
Starts with Piano
My Conclusions: There is a difference; it’s not in your (or at least my) face to be sure, but I can hear differences when listening carefully. I honestly don’t know if I could pick out the Danny network every time. If it were a concentrated listening session with familiar music, I’d stand a better chance than if I was mindlessly listening, which is often the case in this house.
What am I hearing? My mind wrestles with all the adjectives I’ve encountered describing how systems sound…a slippery slope at best, but I’ll give it a go! The original network sounds a little “wooly” in comparison, a bit less detail or clarity perhaps, “inner detail” is the best I can think of. I wouldn’t put it on a gross scale, but rather the “edges” of the music are better defined.
Let me try an analogy where I have more knowledge…wood finishing. It’s not about the stain or lacquer, it’s about that single drop of red dye that almost imperceptibly shifted color to a more organic and pleasing tone. It’s a hard thing to quantify, but there none-the-less.
That’s my assessment. It may have just reinforced what I already thought. I’d conclude that, for me, knowing it made a difference wouldn’t be enough to make me buy the whatever-it-is. I’d have to put it in the context of how I’d listen. Big boom movie soundtracks or speakers for the echo chamber shop? That’d strike me as a waste. If it were a sit down and listen in the living room kinda thing, I’d probably decide I wanted all the water in that well.
Who's next in line for a listen?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=46334)
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Ah man, is that a pushed in dust cap I see?
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It is, Danny. I assumed you knew about it, they came out of box that way. I can do a "vacuum restoration" if you like.
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It is, Danny. I assumed you knew about it, they came out of box that way. I can do a "vacuum restoration" if you like.
This is the first I have heard about it. If you can do a little vacuum restoration that will be appreciated.
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It didn't go into the box that way. Was the box punched? The foam only covers the top and bottom of the speaker it doesn't enclose the entire speaker.
It is, Danny. I assumed you knew about it, they came out of box that way. I can do a "vacuum restoration" if you like.
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And thanks for posting the feedback Peter.
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My Conclusions: There is a difference; it’s not in your (or at least my) face to be sure, but I can hear differences when listening carefully.
What am I hearing? .........
The original network sounds a little “wooly” in comparison, a bit less detail or clarity perhaps, “inner detail” is the best I can think of. I wouldn’t put it on a gross scale, but rather the “edges” of the music are better defined.
Yep sounds about right in your description. The change in DA (lack of instantaneous release of electrons from the insulator) and ESR (Equivalent series resistance or lack of instantaneous charge/discharge of a capacitor) will cause exactly what you describe. Lack of inner detail, "slurred" attack and inaccurate decay times, Wooly all describe what occurs when DA and ESR etc change.
Nice description Peter.
Steve
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Hi Danny,
I was out of town flying all week and got home yesterday to find that the speakers had been delivered. Thanks for the fast service! I will be testing them this afternoon, but they appear to have made the shipping adventure without any problem. I am going to try to get a demo set up at the next meeting of the Audio-Video Club of Atlanta (A-VOCA), which happens next Sunday. However, there are two problems that I am facing with that. The first is that I am out flying again that day, so I would have to get someone else to run the demo, but that should not be a hard to do. The other thing is that a program has already been set for next week, so I will have to check to see if there would be time available at the meeting to do the demo. It may be too short of a notice, and I may have to wait until next month's meeting. I will let you know. Also, do you have a ballpark figure on what the cost of each network would be so I can give people some idea of how much more the upgrade would cost.
Thanks again, I look forward to trying them.
Mark
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Hi Danny,
Had some guys over from the A-VOCA today to listen to the speakers. All 3 could pick out the improvements from the upgraded crossover easily. They also enjoyed my LS-9's after the demo :thumb:. Sunday we are having a larger gathering of about 15 guys hopefully. I will not be at that meeting (headed to Alaska for 10 days), but one of the guys is going to take notes and I will report the results when I get back. I will also check with you to find out where you want me to send the speakers next.
Thanks for letting us have the opportunity to show some of our members the benefits of upgrading crossovers.
Take care,
Mark
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id love to try these. Hey Danny im curious which you think is better, the upgraded behringer or the upgraded insignia?
But yeah I'd love to try these too to understand a direct a-b comparison of networks.
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Thanks Mark!
id love to try these. Hey Danny im curious which you think is better, the upgraded behringer or the upgraded insignia?
But yeah I'd love to try these too to understand a direct a-b comparison of networks.
I'd say those two were about even. I think Behringer has about 3db higher sensitivity though.
You can be next to try them if you like.
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id love to try these. Hey Danny im curious which you think is better, the upgraded behringer or the upgraded insignia?
Haven't heard the insignia, but the Neo 2X is in a completely different league than the upgraded behringer.
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I've just finished the Inignia upgrade kit and I am mightily impressed. I'll be posting a thread soon. I'd like to spend a few months getting used to this before I jump to N3, which is next for me.
Danny I am no longer interested in the Behringers. I am convinced of the importance of crossovers by your Insignia kit, I don't need to hear this experiment of yours. Send them to the next guy.
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Hi Danny,
I am back from Alaska, and I met yesterday with John Morrison, president of the A-VCOA. He did the demo for the group of guys while I was gone. I think they had 10 people at the gathering, incliuding the wife of one of the members of the club. John siad that every person was able to hear differences between the 2 crossovers, and ALL involved preferred the modified board. Some of the statements about the modified crossover ,smoother, more detail and clearer. The member's wife said that it sounded like the speakers with the original crossover had a layer of cotton in front of them. John said that even though the Beringers were not anyones favorite speakers, they thought they were a lot better with the new crossovers.
So, including the 3 guys that came to my home, that makes 13 total that heard the demos, and all heard the differences, and all liked the modified crossovers the best. It reaaly was easy to hear once you listened to each board for a few minutes.
I can now send the speakers to someone else. Just send me an email and tell me where to ship them. Thanks again for letting us keep them so long we had a good time with them.
Thanks again,
Mark
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Very cool Mark and not at all surprising.
Anyone else on the South East coast before they move to another area?
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Oh yeah, any of you guys try out those speaker cables in your own rig?
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What happened to the Behringer speakers for the crossover comparisons? Have not seen anything posted in a long time.
Just checking since the speakers are mine and the crossovers are Danny's.
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What happened to the Behringer speakers for the crossover comparisons? Have not seen anything posted in a long time.
Just checking since the speakers are mine and the crossovers are Danny's.
I've got them back.
I was actually going to send them out to a guy that is a reviewer. He is not ready for them yet though. Maybe pretty soon.
What to play with them or demo them for a while?
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It just seemed a good thing to revive with all the talk in the other thread. :D
Plenty of speaker projects here once the next batch of crossovers arrive!
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Hello Danny Richie
I own a pair of B2031P, and want to upgrade the crossovers, can you please tell me the value of the caps and inductors?
(I don have the proper equipment to determinate myself)
Best!
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Hello Danny Richie
I own a pair of B2031P, and want to upgrade the crossovers, can you please tell me the value of the caps and inductors?
(I don have the proper equipment to determinate myself)
Best!
I can do better than that. I can send you everything you need.
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YouTube You CAN'T handle the TRUTH! with GR-Research (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmsMGILAYvk)
* Sound Clips: https://youtu.be/Ks9Y8sNIrKs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks9Y8sNIrKs)
* Measurements: http://gr-research.com/pics/networkcomparo1.jpg http://gr-research.com/pics/networkcomparo2.jpg
Same loudspeakers Behringer B2030P with same crossover but with different quality components. The sound difference is very noticeable with my small coaxials.
Optimized
(https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/behringer-2030p-crossovers-jpg.49735/)
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Geez, I just looked and I sent those speakers to Danny almost 9 years ago to mod and send around. :o
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Geez, I just looked and I sent those speakers to Danny almost 9 years ago to mod and send around. :o
And those things are still making waves.
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In 2011 I heard the biggers,
B2031P B2030P and I liked the tweeter sound. The furniture resonated a lot.
I carried a USB with tracks. I was unable to differentiate MP3 LAME 320 kbps from FLAC 16/44. I did not even try 16/44 vs 24/96. Upon returning home, I did the test with my first audio system and was able to differentiate again, even between 24/96 and 24/192.
They were used as surround in a 9.2 system. With two big DIY 18" sealed subwoofers.
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Might be fun to send the Behringers to a test/reviewer or for measurements as it is a direct comparison of the same speaker with original and modified crossovers.
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Might be fun to send the Behringers to a test/reviewer or for measurements as it is a direct comparison of the same speaker with original and modified crossovers.
We can do that.