woodsyi's Benz MC-3 cartridge

TheChairGuy · « **on:** 4 May 2007, 03:26 am »

Finally, a month after Larry/lcrim sent me woodsyi's venerable MC-3, I (oh-so-carefully) mounted it in my JVC tonite and gave it a spin.

My Rega 250 arm (on my VPI Mark III) is inoperable now....the homebrew re-wire the previous owner applied causes mistracking and humming

Urgh. But, the JVC has vertical and horizontal arm damping - making about any cartridge an ideal math for evaluation.

First off, the MC3 is a gorgeous made piece of kit. I understand it was $1500 in 1985, so now I understand why

It's quite clear, maybe not quite as clear as the Ortofon X5-MC, but ultra-low inductance will generate very little coil noise...so despite about 62 db of gain, it's very, very silent. The very low DC resistance leaves gobs of detail to enjoy. Less coils turns of thicker wire (relatively speaking) will offer less DC resistance. So, when low coil noise (re:near silence) is temed with increased detail good things often happen. The secret of moving coils, I believe, are mostly these inherent electrical advantages they have.

I've got to listen further than I have as I've been listening to MI/MM's mostly for weeks now (my APT fares poorly with anything under 5mv, so it leaves me as my choices the AT440ML/OCC (5mv) and ADC XLM Mk. III Improved (6.05mv) as cartridge prospects.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #1 on:** 4 May 2007, 03:55 am »

Oh yeah, I didn't want to spend gobs on a MC stage for this experiment...but I wanted something good enough to hear the goods (so to speak). History has taught me that less connections (solder joints, rca's, excess wiring, etc) are greatly magnified in importance with eeny-weeny cartridge signals...so I decided to get a standalone phono stage that had a volume control for dedicated listening.

So cartridge gets hooked up to lead wires, and run a length straight into the phono stage (unfortunately, with my JVC, that means solder joints for the wire in several places.....definitely not conducive to better performance, overall). But at least it has no more than one nasty rca junction to contend with

There are very, very few phono stages with volume controls out there...and those that are were $1K and up (a notable exception was the TC-760LC http://www.phonopreamps.com/TC-760LCpp.html for only $73.50). It even has adjustable impedance loading (niiiiiice)....but it recommends 0.6mv and up only and I wasn't sure of sound quality for that little cash. I did a little searching and found the MC-3 was on the order of 0.35mv. So, I needed another plan.

Well, in vinyl's golden age, 1976 thru 1985 or so (just before CD almost did it in entirely), nearly every good preamp of note had a moving coil stage. 25 years later they end up pretty cheap on the used market and useful as they can be used as dedicated mc stages as they have volume control.

I ended up with a Mitsubishi DA-C20 Tuner/Preamp - for $120.00 (originally $510.00 in 1980). The MM stage is bested by the APT, but the moving coil stage is just sweet as can be - and silent. Combined with the stone cold silent, low inductance MC-3, everything is amplified with less notable noise than any moving magnet cartridge and stage I'm familiar with personally. Specs claim S/N of -77db IHF-A, and it's quiet as a clam.

It's a dual-mono beauty (I like it's styling, but that's entirely subjective). Dual mono pays off nice dividends in stereo separation and reduced crosstalk...and they are run into tube monoblocks for full dual mono in the amplification stages. Tired old caps that clearly need changeout as the dynamics are blunted compared to the newly updated/re-capped APT-Holman preamp, this baby does the job very nicely so cheap (and it's got a tuner, to boot, as my thrift shop find JVC lost it's FM capability recently)

woodsyi · « **Reply #2 on:** 4 May 2007, 12:23 pm »

TCG,

It await your verdict. One thing for sure is that all Benz carts I've tried including the MC-3 are great trackers. They are very balanced top to bottom and they actually sound better (to me) with a bit warmish tube phono stage if you can get a hold of one. Telefunken 12ax7s with their "mushness" were the best to my ears in Ear 834 or Art Audio Vinyl One.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #3 on:** 4 May 2007, 02:55 pm »

The Mitsui is my only option with MC stage....my Quicksilver (tube) preamp has only MM stage.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #4 on:** 4 May 2007, 07:02 pm »

One thing solved by the MC-3.....a certain, very noticeable high distortion level, or ugly blurring of notes when playing (in particular) driving piano music from Horowitz, Guaraldi, George Winston, Keith Jarrett or others. It may be there on other music, but most noticeable to me with driving piano music.

It has existed on every cartridge thus far....magnet, iron, coil - all high output before this one (this is my first in-home audition of a low output device). So, I strongly suspect that we have coil saturation on the higher output devices...that doesn't exist on lower output cartridges. Seems reducing wire lengths from hundreds of feet to a few, along with larger gauge wiring used, is strongly beneficial for vinyl sonics. Lower DC resistance is a good thing in reducing coil saturation

That, in itself, is reason to switch over to a low output cartridge. Before this, I was struggling to find a major reason why low output is worth the hassle (and cost) vis-a-vis higher output cartridges. Now, I found a huge one (for me, at least, as I had been assuming this high level distortion was carried over from the master tape and had nothing to do with the playback).

Well, it seems it has everything to do with the playback as it turns out

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #5 on:** 4 May 2007, 08:17 pm »

Brilliant! - I hadn't seen that one. Thank you

Tho, the MC-3 has a 0.35mv output....the Wright's 60db gain might be a teeny bit light for it as it recommends 0.4mv and up (the vast majority of cartridges fall into this range, tho)

thx again, John

lcrim · « **Reply #6 on:** 4 May 2007, 09:04 pm »

John:
So you finally got to hear it w/ your own ears. Its not a subtle improvement. I think its just simple physics but at any event you heard it.
BTW, the MC-3 certainly sounded stronger than .35 mV, I couldn't find a spec on it and switching back and forth between it and my new Glider L2 (.43 mV factory test sheet) I never changed gain settings. That was using my EE MM phono section @ 57 dB gain and 47 ohm loading. Both carts partnered well with it.
The thing I liked about it most, is the image density. I had a similar experience to Rim, even at the extremes of bass and treble, it was there.
Add in some "constrained layer damping" as in the isoplatmat and the resolution just improves.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #7 on:** 4 May 2007, 09:46 pm »

Yup, finally

I picked up somewhere in my research that it was 0.35mv. Not having anything remotely close to it to compare, I wouldn't now. There is seeming plenty of gain to drive it with the Mitsui. I don't know the gain on this preamp, but I suspect it's 60db or more (it has plenty of juice to drive it). I don't know how good it is.....the MM stage was inferior to my APT, for instance (but not world's apart). I know it could use a re-capping after 30 years, for sure, so dynamic pluck is muted because of it.

But a hero emerged earlier today. Almost before I could accept the gracious offer, a pair of Lundahl step-up transformers were shipped to me by Wayne@Bolder Cables. His TT is down and he wanted me to hear the Benz at it's best. I still think the 20db will be insufficient with the APT's 36 gain in the MM stage...but we'll try.

Wayne's World, Wayne's World, Wayne's World, Wayne's World, Wayne's World

There, I've wanted to write that for awhile

Thanks again, Wayne (woodsyi, too, of course). Is this not the best audio site in the world - I think so

Quote from: lcrim on 4 May 2007, 09:04 pm

John:
So you finally got to hear it w/ your own ears. Its not a subtle improvement. I think its just simple physics but at any event you heard it.
BTW, the MC-3 certainly sounded stronger than .35 mV, I couldn't find a spec on it and switching back and forth between it and my new Glider L2 (.43 mV factory test sheet) I never changed gain settings. That was using my EE MM phono section @ 57 dB gain and 47 ohm loading. Both carts partnered well with it.
The thing I liked about it most, is the image density. I had a similar experience to Rim, even at the extremes of bass and treble, it was there.
Add in some "constrained layer damping" as in the isoplatmat and the resolution just improves.

JoshK · « **Reply #8 on:** 4 May 2007, 11:42 pm »

When I get my Loesch style phono built (and TT set back up), I will have to bribe woodsyi to loan it to me. This is of course, after I build stepped lpads for him. See my problem?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #9 on:** 5 May 2007, 12:56 am »

That cartridge should apply for Frequent Flyer Miles

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #10 on:** 6 May 2007, 04:56 pm »

Tho the Mitsuibishi DA-C20's MM and MC stages had adequate gain (the manual doesn't say, but I'll guess-timate 38db MM and 62dbMC); they were more than a bit strident. I just chalked this up to 70's transistor sound at work.

Well, turns out they just needed to by run-in well. This old dog was probably sitting somewhere for a decade and the caps needed to be run-in again and be taught to sound nice, again

I forget both with newly capped units, and those sitting for long lengths...it takes some inordinate time for the correct phase and dynamics to shine.

With the Benz MC-3 that woodsyi loaned out, with it's greatly enhanced high frequency extension, it was awful for the first 6-8 albums...but I just suffered thru as it kept sounding a bit better each album played. It's probably still not fleshed out fully, but getting there.

Playing an old, old favorite I use to evaluate bass power - Black Uhuru's 'Anthem' - I get a good idea how things stand in my vinyl system. Previously, the best quality/quantity of bass I got was with my old Superphon Dual Mono preamp, Townshend Rock with Helius Orion and lowly Grado. Circa 1987-88 or so.

I had assumed my direct drive JVC was incapable of producing bass like that...or the arm wasn't up to snuff, etc. Well, I hadn't really considered the preamp in the equation. It seems rather more critical than I had been giving it credit too, previously. The bass power of the Benz/JVC QL-F6/Mitsubishi is outstanding.

Like 'Eric the Red' found out recently with puchase of Graham Slee's overachieving phono stage...they matter more than we would have thought before hearing them.

Unless you're playing kettle drums or organ notes, the bass power of this vinyl-based front end is on par with that of CD now. That's something I've been looking in vain for for 20 years to match. This Mitsui is a winner, a keeper, and it sounds astounding here now.

In fact, my small-ish Linaeum speakers are clearly not up to the task of handling the bass and dynamics of this preamp. I know see either larger speakers or a subwoofer in my future to enjoy it all.

I don't know if it's dual mono (with separate power windings and boards for each channel), 1% film caps that allow for 0.2db deviation from the RIAA equalization curve or something else with this preamp....but it's a very serious preamp (tuner is okay, but it's not that important to me). Old caps and all need to be replaced, of course...but I'm enjoying things now immensely. What part of the equation the MC-3 plays in this is unknown right now...but it may well be significant, as well

I think this Mitsui's MM stage is on par with the APT (maybe better as less crosstalk and increased stereo separation due to dual mono design is great for phono sonics). The MC stage, loaded at only 10ohm and capable of handing a cartridge down to 0.1mv output, is frankly superb for it's original US$500 price and even better for $150 28 years later

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #11 on:** 6 May 2007, 05:36 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 4 May 2007, 07:02 pm

One thing solved by the MC-3.....a certain, very noticeable high distortion level, or ugly blurring of notes when playing (in particular) driving piano music from Horowitz, Guaraldi, George Winston, Keith Jarrett or others. It may be there on other music, but most noticeable to me with driving piano music.

It has existed on every cartridge thus far....magnet, iron, coil - all high output before this one (this is my first in-home audition of a low output device). So, I strongly suspect that we have coil saturation on the higher output devices...that doesn't exist on lower output cartridges. Seems reducing wire lengths from hundreds of feet to a few, along with larger gauge wiring used, is strongly beneficial for vinyl sonics. Lower DC resistance is a good thing in reducing coil saturation

I think you have problems with cleaning the stylus properly. Them low output MCs wiggle at very high speeds and can shake off dust. I suggest you use LAST cleaner. If you brush it off with ultrapure water the results will mesmerize you.

If proper cleaning does not get you where you want, perhaps is the aformentioned hysteresis effect of coil windings. Who knows...

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 6 May 2007, 04:56 pm

I had assumed my direct drive JVC was incapable of producing bass like that...or the arm wasn't up to snuff, etc. Well, I hadn't really considered the preamp in the equation. It seems rather more critical than I had been giving it credit too, previously. The bass power of the Benz/JVC QL-F6/Mitsubishi is outstanding.

Like 'Eric the Red' found out recently with puchase of Graham Slee's overachieving phono stage...they matter more than we would have thought before hearing them.

Unless you're playing kettle drums or organ notes, the bass power of this vinyl-based front end is on par with that of CD now. That's something I've been looking in vain for for 20 years to match. This Mitsui is a winner, a keeper, and it sounds astounding here now.

I don't know if it's dual mono (with separate power windings and boards for each channel), 1% film caps that allow for 0.2db deviation from the RIAA equalization curve or something else with this preamp....but it's a very serious preamp (tuner is okay, but it's not that important to me). Old caps and all need to be replaced, of course...but I'm enjoying things now immensely. What part of the equation the MC-3 plays in this is unknown right now...but it may well be significant, as well

Dejan Veselinovic (DVV) had been saying it all along: the phonostage is more important.

My monolithic Sound phono stage is dual mono and has a dual mono outboard power supply. This is very important for bass performance and realistic soundstaging. Too many rely on tubes for imaging when in fact dual mono transistor units are the cost effective ticket.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #12 on:** 6 May 2007, 06:43 pm »

PA/Francisco....that's not my (Magna) Cart. It's a far more costly one (likely) sold by a company called WESCO (one of my competitors).
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/4ZZ71

They're priced 3-4x what ours is...for reasons other then performance

. You environmentalists outta' shop around more

Hey, back to something closer to the audio point. Dual Mono must not be the only component of good vinyl sonics. I had a Musical Surroundings Phenomena dual mono, class A, closely specs caps and it didn't sound as good as this Mitsui does (or, for that matter, the Superphon)

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #13 on:** 6 May 2007, 07:38 pm »

Damn, I was telling everybody in staff YOU designed it!

Anyway, neither of them is me, though I'm a charter member--the only original remaining charter member after the pres. (founded 1995)

Well, dual mono is one of the requirements, but of course there's more to it. Seems you hit it good with the Mitsubishi. Is it bettter sounding than the APT?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #14 on:** 6 May 2007, 08:15 pm »

Quote from: Psychicanimal on 6 May 2007, 07:38 pm

Damn, I was telling everybody in staff YOU designed it!

Anyway, neither of them is me, though I'm a charter member--the only original remaining charter member after the pres. (founded 1995)

Well, dual mono is one of the requirements, but of course there's more to it. Seems you hit it good with the Mitsubishi. Is it bettter sounding than the APT?

Yeah - I/we did not invent the concept of these portable carts....merely found a way to build one (now 3) less expensively and put it into production 2 years ago.

The APT is quieter, but the gain (for MM cartridges) is insufficient for all but the 5mv AT and 6mv ADC, unfortunately. I have no idea why it is so, or why they would design it so weakly...but I run out of volume far earlier than I would like to turn it. It is spotlessly quiet, so I have considered that it is so quiet that I just want to keep raising the volume(but, I do not think that is it). Someday I might invest $39.99 for an spl meter to analyze things better.

The APT is not dual mono...but it is amazing quiet (it is a better linestage for CD than the Mitsui for this reason...I think it has the best CD playback that I have had here). My Linaeum speakers rock off their bases with the APT playing them

S/N figure is -123db and it sounds like it.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #15 on:** 12 May 2007, 02:36 am »

oh, nowwwwwwwwwww I get why some of you spend your life savings on low output moving coils

Having had woodsyi's Benz MC-3 for several days running, mixing in other cartridges in betwixt and between...I would find myself alternatingly loving and loathing the sounds coming from my stereo. I couldn't fathom it. One record sounded fine with the Grado and ADC, was el stinko with the MC-3.

It dawned on me today why - that the Benz is lifting everything off that record and everything ain't so good with all records. They are phasey, compressed, miked poorly, overly equalized, etc. The Benz, in combination with not-at-all cuddly warm Mitsubishi MC phono stage, is making me listen to everything. And it ain't all good.

If I pull out a clean, dynamic recording (Black Uhuru's 'Anthem', the pricey audiophile pressings I have, etc.), it all sounds good - better than ever. But, with a lot of my records, I hear the ham-handed previous owners spherical needle plowing thru my record, I hear the weird equalization and compression applied, etc.

This was previously unknown to me. Now I get the reason for quality low output moving coils like this one

Now I get it, boys

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #16 on:** 12 May 2007, 04:39 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 12 May 2007, 02:36 am

If I pull out a clean, dynamic recording (Black Uhuru's 'Anthem', the pricey audiophile pressings I have, etc.), it all sounds good - better than ever. But, with a lot of my records, I hear the ham-handed previous owners spherical needle plowing thru my record, I hear the weird equalization and compression applied, etc.

Now, do you want to live like that the rest of your life?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #17 on:** 12 May 2007, 06:30 pm »

The thought had occurred to me....but, with the Japanese DD decks they have fast-swappable headshells so sonic life won't be dominated by this extremism of record quality.

I've got cartridge change-outs to under 3 minutes now.....with all adjustments in place. Not such a pain, at all if I find vinyl life too limiting LOMC.

I still would like to try a LOMM or LOMI (Grado) to see if that might be a happy medium.

woodsyi · « **Reply #18 on:** 12 May 2007, 09:08 pm »

I am living like that for the rest of my life.

I wouldn't want it any other way but then I am more of a opera, classical and acoustic music guy. BTW, you can really dial your LOMC to get your favorite diva to sing in right in front of you.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #19 on:** 12 May 2007, 10:57 pm »

woodsyi, what could I be doing to potentially improve the MC-3 (Dialing for Diva's

) ?

My MC preamp section is loaded at 10 ohms, a little low I'm near certain, but I have outboard box made by db Systems where you can dial in additional resistance (so, I've tried 100 & 200 ohms + the 10ohms of the preamp). Certain aspects of it's performance 'dialed in' a bit better....but (as I've found with additional junctions and vinyl playback before) I thought, overall, the additional rca junctions were more detrimental to performance than the positive aspects of the additional resistance. 'Purity' was lost with additional resistance.

I've tried 1.8 to 2.3g of downforce so far.....and as with other cartridges I've found on this deck/arm, anti-skate is about 60% of downforce optimally (not 100% as many advise)