AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: vinylvalet on 1 Feb 2018, 04:41 pm
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Could you tell me specifically why this would be the case compared to the Rythmik Audio F12 direct servo subwoofer. Thanks.
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Could you tell me specifically why this would be the case compared to the Rythmik Audio F12 direct servo subwoofer. Thanks.
What is the comparison that you are wanting to make?
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The description of your Servo Sub kit 2 states, "The quality level of bass reproduction using this servo control system exceeds any other woofer and amp combination available by any company at any price." So, for example, in what technical and audible ways would this be true in comparison to the Rythmik Audio F12? Or at the upper end of the price range, the JL Audio Gotham v2? Thanks.
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Our Servo Sub Kit 2 and the Rythmik Audio F12 direct servo subwoofer use the same patented servo technology. It was the F12 the Brian Ding (of Rythmik Audio) first demo'ed to me several years ago to demonstrate the technology. There is nothing else like it.
Upon hearing it I recognized the additional potential of the technology and began working with Brian on a lighter weight paper cone version for the audiophile market, and versions for open baffle applications. The paper cone woofer offers a more natural sound and even faster settling rates. The details levels in low frequency ranges are unmatched.
From the Rythmik Audio site "For audiophiles looking for uncompromising accuracy, our F12G subwoofer is the ultimate choice."
The F12G model that they offer is the same system using our GR Research SW-12-04 woofer in a completed package, including the cabinet. We don't stock cabinets. Our focus is in the DIY segment of the market. So the same package is offered as a kit.
The JL Audio Gotham v2 is a monstrous power house designed to hit some really high SPL levels. But the drivers have no additional electrical stopping force. They rely only of the suspension of the driver to allow them to return to rest. The drivers also have a very heavy moving mass that will take a much longer time to return to rest after a long extrusion. So settling times are much higher.
In terms of quality it is not even a comparison.
As an example in playing back the hit of a large drum, at close to original SPL levels of the hit of the drum, the results are very different. With a conventional sub you hear the hit of the drum blended as a single boom. And details are covered over by the decay of the woofer. With the servo technology you hear the hit of the mallet on the skin of the drum and hear the actual decay of the drum and not the decay of the woofer recovering from the initial hit. The sound is very different.
It is a different level of performance that users of our subs can and often confirm.
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Thank you for your quick and detailed reply. A kit is what I'm looking for. Really lucky that I came across your subs, was just about to purchase the Rythmik kits. I'll be ordering a pair of your Servo Sub kit 2s along with some of your parts for another project I'm working on. Which lead me to one more question if you don't mind.
I'm building a pair of Pi Speakers Four Pi speakers (my amps are only 8W so I need fairly high efficiency) and want to include your cable tube connectors as well as No Rez. The plans call for adding R11 or R13 insulation. Would there be an additional benefit adding the No Rez? If so, would it be applied on all the inside surfaces? Thanks again.
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I concur with Danny. I have owned several sub/sat combinations and more full range speakers than you could imagine. His OB subs have far better bass than anything I have owned before.
Shakey
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Thanks Shakey for your added vote of confidence. I'm sold.
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I'm building a pair of Pi Speakers Four Pi speakers (my amps are only 8W so I need fairly high efficiency) and want to include your cable tube connectors as well as No Rez. The plans call for adding R11 or R13 insulation. Would there be an additional benefit adding the No Rez? If so, would it be applied on all the inside surfaces? Thanks again.
That is a very dynamic speaker with good sensitivity. The tube connectors will improve clarity across the board. No Rez will tighten up the bass response and lower vocal region. It does this by damping out cabinet resonances. It is used on all interior walls that are also an outer wall. It is not used on braces.
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Thank you.
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vinylvalet, I bought two Rythmik F12G's in December - nice holiday discounted prices. Rythmik Audio HQ and warehouse is here in Austin, and Brian delivered them to my house. The construction is first-rate, cabinets VERY heavy and internally braced. BTW, Rythmik customer support/service is tops - right up there with GR Research.
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Thanks Hank.
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Hope you don't mind my two cents. I owned a sunfire sub. Got it when i worked at audio king back in the day. Thought I had great bass until I started following this forum a few years ago.
I have the super v from GR Research with 2 12" servo open baffle subs on each side. As a band director and long time rock drummer, I can listen to kick drums for hours and get lost in how different they sound from one recording to the next. Not like that before, although the cds are all the same.
Funny how that happened...
Greatest bass ever.
Ben
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Hope you don't mind my two cents. I owned a sunfire sub. Got it when i worked at audio king back in the day. Thought I had great bass until I started following this forum a few years ago.
I have the super v from GR Research with 2 12" servo open baffle subs on each side. As a band director and long time rock drummer, I can listen to kick drums for hours and get lost in how different they sound from one recording to the next. Not like that before, although the cds are all the same. :scratch:
Greatest bass ever.
Ben
Yep, I've owned and also built some crazy bass subs and had friends with even crazier bass systems (infinite baffle subs). I rarely make a statement like this, but in this case it's warranted - the dual 12 inch OB servo subs are the best bass I've heard, ever.
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Thanks much Mr RockDrummer; as a rock bass and Hammond player, very valuable feedback. That's why I'm building the Four Pi speakers to go along with Danny's subs. Most of all I value effortless dynamics and organic timbres and am willing to give up some of the audiophile artifacts (ultimate detail, extension and imaging) to get it.
"although the cds are all the same"; dig, that's why my main system is vinyl only, all tubes (just six active gain stages between my phono cartridge and speakers). No computers, no screens. I call it my time machine. Yes, I'll be compromising the philosophy with the sub amps but that's an okay use of transistors.
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Thanks Tyson.
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I hope to make this more clear. I mean the same cds sound so much better with servo bass. Hope that made sense.
Ben
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Note also that we’re referring to the open baffle subs, not the sealed subs. The sealed ones are very good but the open baffle ones are the ones that perform at the very highest level of quality.
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Let me put a big "AMEN" to what Tyson is saying. I have three GR Research 12" per side, in an OB configuration. I was listening to the Mahler 9th the other night (lots of deep bass from bass viols and an organ) and I was once again blown away by the quality of the bass: it growls; it has real texture; it is unstrained and undistorted with no overhang.
At the 2016 Capital Audiofest, I heard a system with SIX stacked woofers per side. And, I believe, Rich Hollis (Hollis Audio Labs) is building one as well. Really great, natural sound.
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Hi guys,
So are most people using this OB design for sub duties (<80Hz)? Or going higher?
Are there any measurements? Trying to work out how they would compare to sealed box versions (Rythmik)?
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I'll throw in my 2 cents regarding the OB servo subs in H frame. I had them in my GR V1s, I gave the V1s to my son and built another pair of the servo subs for me. The GR servo subs in OB are the best bass I have heard, I also have 4-15" AE sub drivers in infinite baffle driven by a 2400 watt behringer amp in my Home theater system, the GRs are my preference. If you want to hear bass detail the GRs servos in OB are the way to go IMHO.
Best,
Ed
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I'll throw in my 2 cents regarding the OB servo subs in H frame. I had them in my GR V1s, I gave the V1s to my son and built another pair of the servo subs for me. The GR servo subs in OB are the best bass I have heard, I also have 4-15" AE sub drivers in infinite baffle driven by a 2400 watt behringer amp in my Home theater system, the GRs are my preference. If you want to hear bass detail the GRs servos in OB are the way to go IMHO.
Best,
Ed
and, the Ob H-frames will play up quite high if you need them to, Danny has crossed to them in numerous designs inthe 200hz region
jay
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Let me put a big "AMEN" to what Tyson is saying. I have three GR Research 12" per side, in an OB configuration. I was listening to the Mahler 9th the other night (lots of deep bass from bass viols and an organ) and I was once again blown away by the quality of the bass: it growls; it has real texture; it is unstrained and undistorted with no overhang.
At the 2016 Capital Audiofest, I heard a system with SIX stacked woofers per side. And, I believe, Rich Hollis (Hollis Audio Labs) is building one as well. Really great, natural sound.
Yes, the two 6x12's servo subs are done and are amazing with my line arrays.
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Yes, the two 6x12's servo subs are done and are amazing with my line arrays.
The only thing better than two twelve inch servo subs per side is 6 twelve inch servo subs per side!!! Haha I love the way you put the pedal to the metal :thumb:
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Let me put a big "AMEN" to what Tyson is saying. I have three GR Research 12" per side, in an OB configuration. I was listening to the Mahler 9th the other night (lots of deep bass from bass viols and an organ) and I was once again blown away by the quality of the bass: it growls; it has real texture; it is unstrained and undistorted with no overhang.
At the 2016 Capital Audiofest, I heard a system with SIX stacked woofers per side. And, I believe, Rich Hollis (Hollis Audio Labs) is building one as well. Really great, natural sound.
And also huge dynamics too! I was watching Bladerunner 2049 two days ago and the bass is just crushing! And then it stops on a dime. Goes from a whisper to a punch in the gut and back again with zero overhang or bloat.
I run mine up to 200hz and they sound awesome.
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Tyson how do you get your subs to run at 200 hz mine only goes up to 120 hz ?
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If you set it to 120hz and measure you’ll see it is only like 6db down at 200hz. Since my Super 7s start to roll off the mids right there, its perfect for a 200hz hand over.
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Interesting guys. All the sealed subwoofers i have now or have had (Rythmik, SVS, Paradign, Seaton) dont sound very good above 100Hz. The 15 inch AE bass drivers I have sound great to well over 200Hz, but are slightly lacking in the deep bass for impact. Although even that is marginal with great amplification.
I have not had an implementation that can do both upper bass and sub bass really well - have always needed separate drivers. Talking about music rather than home theatre use.
What does OB bring over a sealed enclosure that makes it work here? Do you loose anything?
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The OB servo subs use the Linkwitz Transform to correct the H-Frame cabinet to the 12" OB paper driver response used in these subs. Very different idea than the other sealed or ported designs mentioned. Lots of things written on this concept.
They load a room differently than a sealed sub. They have a figure of 8 pattern radiation pattern instead of an omni. This changes the room response to remove the bloat or boom a lot of sealed or ported designs give.
I easily go from less than 20Hz to 200Hz with mine and no sense of loss in any register. Just sounds like clean natural bass.
They do like space behind them, so that is something to consider.
Had Genesis 12M and VMPS Standard subs with speakers. These are way beyond their capabilities.
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If you set it to 120hz and measure you’ll see it is only like 6db down at 200hz. Since my Super 7s start to roll off the mids right there, its perfect for a 200hz hand over.
Just to be clear for guys not familiar with thiese, you need to use the Avr/12 slope seting onthe A370. You won't make it up that high using the 50/24 or 80/24. slopes.
jay
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The OB application is great for music but not so great for the ultra low infasonic frequencies found in the Low Frequency Effect (LFE/.1) track of movies, especially action movies. The drivers can bottom out. Also, the difference in room loading of the OB application doesn't produce the chest thump of a sealed or ported sub which is great for music but lacking for home theater.
So if you want the best bass for music only, go with a stereo application of OB subs. If you want the best bass experience for home theater only, go with the sealed or ported application. If you want the best bass for a combination music and home theater system, go with stereo OB subs on the main channels and use one or more sealed or ported subs on the LFE channel(s). Danny has used the combination of OB subs up front and a sealed in the back of the room running out of phase for music only. Which would actually be the ultimate music arrangement.
My Living room system is primarily home theater. With this system I have a Rythmik F12 on the LFE/sub out channel of the AV receiver. My upstairs system is for both music and home theater. In this system I have OB subs on the left and right main channels and a GR/Rythmik sealed sandbox sub on the AVR's LFE channel.
The GR/Rythmik servo subs, whether sealed/ported and OB, are the best I've heard for their respective applications. Choose the configuration that best suits your needs and budget.
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Just to be clear for guys not familiar with thiese, you need to use the Avr/12 slope seting onthe A370. You won't make it up that high using the 50/24 or 80/24. slopes.
jay
Holy crap. That made a huge difference! What did I just do?
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Holy crap. That made a huge difference! What did I just do?
Well, if you just flipped the switch to the AVR/12 setting . you're now dropping 12db/octave starting at the c/o dial position.. If you were using either the 50/24 or 80/24 slope setting, you were dropping 12 db /oct starting at either 50 o 80hz and also another 12 /oct at whatever you had the dial set to so you end up with a much steeper roll off with either of the x/24 slopes
hjay
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Holy crap. That made a huge difference! What did I just do?
:lol: Is that a GOOD huge difference?!
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Well, if you just flipped the switch to the AVR/12 setting . you're now dropping 12db/octave starting at the c/o dial position.. If you were using either the 50/24 or 80/24 slope setting, you were dropping 12 db /oct starting at either 50 o 80hz and also another 12 /oct at whatever you had the dial set to so you end up with a much steeper roll off with either of the x/24 slopes
hjay
That's such a cool way to be able to dial in your sub. This control combined with phase adjustment is really a smart way to go :D just curious: where do you set your "extension filter" switch?
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Just to be clear; OB subs must be located well away from from walls. Correct?
So if there is no way to have 3' behind sub to wall then sealed is the next best option?
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The OB application is great for music but not so great for the ultra low infasonic frequencies found in the Low Frequency Effect (LFE/.1) track of movies, especially action movies. The drivers can bottom out.
We have had this issue with running a pair of the SW-12-08FR drivers on the A370 amps. At that impedance level the amp does have the power to push the drivers to beyond X-Max with frequency ranges at or below 20Hz. So we have gone back to using a pair of the SW-12-16FR woofers instead. The amp still has the power to drive them to X-Max but not beyond. And for dual SW-12-08FR drivers we are recommending the HX300 amp.
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Just to be clear; OB subs must be located well away from from walls. Correct?
So if there is no way to have 3' behind sub to wall then sealed is the next best option?
The can be placed near or even right up on the side walls. They just need space behind them.
And yes, if space is limited then the sealed box design is the way to go.
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We have had this issue with running a pair of the SW-12-08FR drivers on the A370 amps. At that impedance level the amp does have the power to push the drivers to beyond X-Max with frequency ranges at or below 20Hz. So we have gone back to using a pair of the SW-12-16FR woofers instead. The amp still has the power to drive them to X-Max but not beyond. And for dual SW-12-08FR drivers we are recommending the HX300 amp.
Since it is the 4 ohm load that the dual SW-12-08FRs presents that causes the bottoming issues while the 8ohm load of two SW-12-16FRs do not bottom, would using three SW-12-16GRs, which would be a 4 ohm load, have the bottoming issues with special effects?
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Since it is the 4 ohm load that the dual SW-12-08FRs presents that causes the bottoming issues while the 8ohm load of two SW-12-16FRs do not bottom, would using three SW-12-16GRs, which would be a 4 ohm load, have the bottoming issues with special effects?
No, because the output is being shared by three woofers.
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That's such a cool way to be able to dial in your sub. This control combined with phase adjustment is really a smart way to go :D just curious: where do you set your "extension filter" switch?
I'm using the 28hz and med setting on the extension filter but settings will obviousiy differ from listner to listner and room to room.
After doing some measurements with REW, I discovered I had a large peak just below 20 hz. by going to the 28 hz setting on the extension filter, it took this out and still left me flat to 20, even a bit below.
I usually start at 20/med and go from there... dropping the damping to low will likely expand your sound stage , going to high tightens it right up
jay
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How would it work for home theater to have a sealed sub in the front and a pair of dual OB subs in the rear? It may work out best in my space to have my 2 channel setup at the back of the room with OB subs, so I was wondering about using them at the back of the room when playing movies.
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We have had this issue with running a pair of the SW-12-08FR drivers on the A370 amps. At that impedance level the amp does have the power to push the drivers to beyond X-Max with frequency ranges at or below 20Hz. So we have gone back to using a pair of the SW-12-16FR woofers instead. The amp still has the power to drive them to X-Max but not beyond. And for dual SW-12-08FR drivers we are recommending the HX300 amp.
ughhhh, I just completed a pair of H frames a few months ago and I was advised to use the 8 ohm version. Although I only play music not home theatre.
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ughhhh, I just completed a pair of H frames a few months ago and I was advised to use the 8 ohm version. Although I only play music not home theatre.
You’ll be fine. I have the 8 ohms in my dual H-Frames with A370 amps. Not even the lowest organ notes cause a problem. Nothing in music has ever overdriven the 8 ohm drivers.
The problem only happens when using the 8 ohm drivers in a home theater set up and then only if they are connected to the subwoofer output of the home theater receiver (AVR). As long as the 8 ohm OB drivers are connected to the left and right main channels of the AVR (either by using thr left and right main channel preamp outputs or by bi-wiring off the left and right binding posts) there will be no issues with the 8 ohm drivers in a home theater setup either.
So if your system is music only, no worries
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I'm another with a dual 8 ohm H frame with the 370. Mine is connected to a one of the outputs from my Dodd pre. I've never had an issue, but I don't push that rig that hard. But I have pushed it on rare occasion with no issues.
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You’ll be fine. I have the 8 ohms in my dual H-Frames with A370 amps. Not even the lowest organ notes cause a problem. Nothing in music has ever overdriven the 8 ohm drivers.
The problem only happens when using the 8 ohm drivers in a home theater set up and then only if they are connected to the subwoofer output of the home theater receiver (AVR). As long as the 8 ohm OB drivers are connected to the left and right main channels of the AVR (either by using thr left and right main channel preamp outputs or by bi-wiring off the left and right binding posts) there will be no issues with the 8 ohm drivers in a home theater setup either.
So if your system is music only, no worries
Whew good, only music. I always have the subsonic filters if need be.
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Since it is the 4 ohm load that the dual SW-12-08FRs presents that causes the bottoming issues while the 8ohm load of two SW-12-16FRs do not bottom, would using three SW-12-16GRs, which would be a 4 ohm load, have the bottoming issues with special effects?
It doesn't influence things too much, but 3 16Ω drivers in parallel would be 5.33Ω; 4 would be 4Ω.
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It doesn't influence things too much, but 3 16Ω drivers in parallel would be 5.33Ω; 4 would be 4Ω.
The Sw12 16FR's are not a true 16 ohm load, believe they are betwen 12-13 ohms. So, you can't do 4 on a single A370PEQ, if you want to do 4 or 6, you have to go to the HX800.
The A370 does handle 3 in parallel just fine
jay
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I have 08's that I got with 370 amps for super vs last year. What is the issue I need to be aware of?
Ben
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I have 08's that I got with 370 amps for super vs last year. What is the issue I need to be aware of?
Ben
Ben,
The issue turns out to exist only under one particular situation with dual 8 ohm drivers and A370 amps. The issue occurs when the A370s are being fed by the low frequency effects channel of a home theater AVR. That is, when the A370s are connected to the subwoofer output of the AVR. Depending on the model of the AVR that channel could be labeled sub out, LFE, or .1. It is usually sub out. When connected like this, big special effects like explosions, earthquakes, star destroyers, etc. can cause the drivers to bottom out.
This issue does not occur in a two channel setup. Only in a multi-channel setup and then only when connected as I described above.
Mike
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Thanks Mike.
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Thanks for the feefback all.
Iam surprised this ob sub cant do LFE from an AVR?? I cant think of another quality sub that will bottom out with a movie soundtrack played at usual home levels.
My intent is for music only. But, like an amplifier, I like some "headroom" with a sub.
Maybe I am reading this wrong, but it sounds like it wont have enough low end output??
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Thanks for the feefback all.
Iam surprised this ob sub cant do LFE from an AVR?? I cant think of another quality sub that will bottom out with a movie soundtrack played at usual home levels.
My intent is for music only. But, like an amplifier, I like some "headroom" with a sub.
Maybe I am reading this wrong, but it sounds like it wont have enough low end output??
I play my Super Vs really loud sometimes and they don't bottom out. Even with really low bass and pushing the limit of what my ears can take they won't bottom out. I do not listen to movie soundtracks thou but I'm guessing even then you would have to really be pushing the subs hard.
I've been communicating with Paul from Red Spade Audio after Mike from Miverna mentioned your speakers. He seemed pretty interested with the Idea of OB Servo Subs in an H frame with his PSE-144 Horn. He has only used sealed subs with it before as you probably know.
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I play my Super Vs really loud sometimes and they don't bottom out. Even with really low bass and pushing the limit of what my ears can take they won't bottom out. I do not listen to movie soundtracks thou but I'm guessing even then you would have to really be pushing the subs hard.
I've been communicating with Paul from Red Spade Audio after Mike from Miverna mentioned your speakers. He seemed pretty interested with the Idea of OB Servo Subs in an H frame with his PSE-144 Horn. He has only used sealed subs with it before as you probably know.
Sounds like a great project. The AE drivers are very good and dig deep, I get flat output to 20Hz and good output below that. However, Iam a servo believer having used Rythmik subs before.
I understand the association with "speed" having used them with Nakamichi Dragon electrostats. They were the only subs that could keep up.
The point source horns have been described as electrostats on steroids. They have the speed and fluidity of a planar speaker, but with visceral impact. A fast servo sub upto 200-250Hz could be a special combination.
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Not to hijack, but Greg, that is a REALLY nice room you have.
Shakey
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Thanks for the feefback all.
Iam surprised this ob sub cant do LFE from an AVR?? I cant think of another quality sub that will bottom out with a movie soundtrack played at usual home levels.
My intent is for music only. But, like an amplifier, I like some "headroom" with a sub.
Maybe I am reading this wrong, but it sounds like it wont have enough low end output??
If you are worried about AVR use the simple solution is to order the 16 ohm version of the drivers.
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Some movie sound tracks really jack up the output down low and can bottom out, or over drive a lot of good subs.
And a lot of our music lover like to use the 14Hz extension filter and low damping for music. And this is not a problem.
However, when playing some of those movies it is a good idea to turn on the rumble filter and change the extension filter to 20 or 28Hz. Increasing the damping to medium or high will help as well.
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To address the topic fully, the ultimate in home bass reproduction is in the use of garage sized concrete bass horns.
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To address the topic fully, the ultimate in home bass reproduction is in the use of garage sized concrete bass horns.
Well, if you are just going for SPL levels then that will do it.
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Sounds like a great project. The AE drivers are very good and dig deep, I get flat output to 20Hz and good output below that. However, Iam a servo believer having used Rythmik subs before.
I understand the association with "speed" having used them with Nakamichi Dragon electrostats. They were the only subs that could keep up.
The point source horns have been described as electrostats on steroids. They have the speed and fluidity of a planar speaker, but with visceral impact. A fast servo sub upto 200-250Hz could be a special combination.
I don't think you can go wrong with Servo Subs and Danny will take care of you for sure. I'd love to hear your horns someday but you are a long ways away. I do plan on going back to Australia again in a year or so. Maybe I could look you up. Of course I have no idea where you live, it is a pretty big place :lol:
Shakey, Thank you very much. It is a lot of fun having it for sure! I'm having another G2G on Feb. 24th which are always fun. Don't know where you live but you are welcome to come by. Guess I should add I live in the Seattle area.
Greg
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Greg, Iam in northwestern Sydney. Look me up if your in town. If you go to Melbourne look up Paul Spencer for a demo.
Cheers
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Greg, Iam in northwestern Sydney. Look me up if your in town. If you go to Melbourne look up Paul Spencer for a demo.
Cheers
Thanks A2,
Melbourne is where I went last time, will definitely go back there again.
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Some movie sound tracks really jack up the output down low and can bottom out, or over drive a lot of good subs.
And a lot of our music lover like to use the 14Hz extension filter and low damping for music. And this is not a problem.
However, when playing some of those movies it is a good idea to turn on the rumble filter and change the extension filter to 20 or 28Hz. Increasing the damping to medium or high will help as well.
Is there a good resource out there to explain what each of the switches and knobs do on this servo amp?
I know various settings have been discussed, and there has even been a nice diagram made so that you can record (and compare) your settings, but I don't recall seeing anything with full explanations or graphs showing the ranges of changes you can make with these.
Starting to play around after getting my speakers back together and taking measurements. It's pretty good, but not where I want it. Measures pretty flat at 1/48th octave, but I (and my wife) prefer a bit more of a "house curve" in our listening. :oops:
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Is there a good resource out there to explain what each of the switches and knobs do on this servo amp?
I know various settings have been discussed, and there has even been a nice diagram made so that you can record (and compare) your settings, but I don't recall seeing anything with full explanations or graphs showing the ranges of changes you can make with these.
Starting to play around after getting my speakers back together and taking measurements. It's pretty good, but not where I want it. Measures pretty flat at 1/48th octave, but I (and my wife) prefer a bit more of a "house curve" in our listening. :oops:
I too prefer a house curve. I also set it to high damping, so even though it's a bit louder than flat, its still very, very tight, fast and musical, and not overblown at all. I turn on the rumble filter as well as set the extension filter to 28hz. Oh, the other thing - when you are setting the EQ, never, ever boost a null, only ever reduce a peak. The other thing with setting the EQ is to measure each speaker individually - they will have slightly different places that need to be EQ'd.
A printable diagram for recording settings would be cool, though.
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There is some additional amp info here: http://gr-research.com/a370peq.aspx
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Ah, THROWBACK just sent me his diagram that he created and asked me to post it. Here it is, feel free to use it:
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/PEQ%20Settings%20FR_Page_1.jpeg)
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There is some additional amp info here: http://gr-research.com/a370peq.aspx
PERFECT! Exactly what I was looking for! (Thought I'd seen it years ago, but forgot where it was)
Thank you Danny!
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Ah, THROWBACK just sent me his diagram that he created and asked me to post it. Here it is, feel free to use it:
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/PEQ%20Settings%20FR_Page_1.jpeg)
Yup. Have that one saved on the hard drive. Need to print it out when I stat making serious adjustments (i.e., next time I'm home alone and can run test test tones for an extended period of time w/o driving Anne nuts)
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There was another place that had the recommended initial settings for the A370PEQ OB H-frame when used in a stereo music setup. Anyone have a link for that?
I had my OB Dual H-frames over a friends house to demo and he had them dialed in with his system better than I've ever managed to do with mine.
Steve
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Here are some links to Rythmik's quick guides for the A370 series amps:
A370PEQ http://www.rythmikaudio.com/download/PEQ_quickguide.pdf
A370PEQ3 http://www.rythmikaudio.com/download/PEQ3_sealed_quickguide.pdf
A370XLR2 http://www.rythmikaudio.com/download/XLR2_sealed_quickguide.pdf
A370XLR3 http://www.rythmikaudio.com/download/XLR3_sealed_quickguide.pdf
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There was another place that had the recommended initial settings for the A370PEQ OB H-frame when used in a stereo music setup. Anyone have a link for that?
I had my OB Dual H-frames over a friends house to demo and he had them dialed in with his system better than I've ever managed to do with mine.
Steve
I think Jay posted a picture of the 370 amp dialed in for the Super Vs. Not sure how helpful this would be for other applications but maybe it's a start.
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"I think Jay posted a picture of the 370 amp dialed in for the Super Vs. Not sure how helpful this would be for other applications but maybe it's a start."
Maybe a good starting place for the Super V's (Tyson?) but I would be darned surprised if that's all it took even if you had those. I have a pretty symmetrical room and I placed my speakers fairly precisely within it. But my settings were different for each speaker and it took a number of hours to get them dialed in. Once there, however: oh boy!
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"I think Jay posted a picture of the 370 amp dialed in for the Super Vs. Not sure how helpful this would be for other applications but maybe it's a start."
Maybe a good starting place for the Super V's (Tyson?) but I would be darned surprised if that's all it took even if you had those. I have a pretty symmetrical room and I placed my speakers fairly precisely within it. But my settings were different for each speaker and it took a number of hours to get them dialed in. Once there, however: oh boy!
So, how did you dial them in? I'm going to see what I can achieve via "flattest frequency response" as a starting point, but figure I'll start playing around from there.
Looks like I get the house to myself for at least a couple of hours on Friday, so I'll try reading up on the various settings and possibilities til then.
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So, how did you dial them in? I'm going to see what I can achieve via "flattest frequency response" as a starting point, but figure I'll start playing around from there.
Looks like I get the house to myself for at least a couple of hours on Friday, so I'll try reading up on the various settings and possibilities til then.
I'm not Chuck but I used a combination of starting by placing them 3ft from the wall then with one side at a time playing, moving the speaker back and forth into the room until I got the best base I could within the amount of room I had to work with. Then I did the other side. Next I moved them farther apart, again within the confines of the space I could maneuver in till they sounded best. Then adjusted toe in to center a vocal image.
After that I connected the computer and used REW, running 15Hz-300Hz frequency sweeps, to adjust the crossover points, again one side at a time. Since I was using the Otica MTMs on top of the H-frames I shot one of the MTMs (sub off) first and determined where its 6dB down point was. Then I turned the MTM off and shot the sub and adjusted the crossover until its was 6dB down at the same place the MTM was. Then I turned on both the sub and MTM and ran REW to see how well they blended. Then tweaked the crossover until I got the smoothest response. Then I turned that channel off and did the other channel.
Next I went back to one channel, both MTM and sub, and ran REW frequency sweeps from 15Hz - 20kHz looking for peaks, adjusting PEQ parameters until I got the smoothest response. Then I did the other side.
Now it is fiddle time with the extension, damping, and filter, etc. switches, rerunning REW after changes to see if I needed to readjust the PEQ settings.
Then sit back and listen. Then walk away for awhile. Then listen again and see if you still like it. If so done. If not, fiddle some more until you do like it.
I'm sure there are other ways that would work also.
Mike
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Just wondering what the recommended GR Sub hook up is to an amplifier? Is it to just run the positive leads of the amp to the servo amp inputs, or should one add a negative connection on one channel as well?
Rocket Ronny
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Just wondering what the recommended GR Sub hook up is to an amplifier? Is it to just run the positive leads of the amp to the servo amp inputs, or should one add a negative connection on one channel as well?
Rocket Ronny
Are you asking about connecting the Rythmik plate amp to a preamp or power amp or are you asking about connecting the Rythmik servo plat amp to the drivers?
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Ref Mike Lundy #72
Mike did not mention the phase control, but that turned out to be very important. Even though I did my best to physically align the woofer cones of the subs and the mains, it wasn't enough. I still had to fiddle with the phase control for each speaker and then together to get the flattest response. And the setting was different for each speaker.
It's hard to do by yourself. My friend has a rather sophisticated calibrated mic and audio analyzer. We used the Stereophile Test Disc #1 to send pink noise through the amp and speakers to the analyzer. Wash, rinse, repeat; wash, rinse, repeat.
When it's right, it's right. But it sure takes a while.
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Ref Mike Lundy #72
Mike did not mention the phase control, but that turned out to be very important. Even though I did my best to physically align the woofer cones of the subs and the mains, it wasn't enough. I still had to fiddle with the phase control for each speaker and then together to get the flattest response. And the setting was different for each speaker.
It's hard to do by yourself. My friend has a rather sophisticated calibrated mic and audio analyzer. We used the Stereophile Test Disc #1 to send pink noise through the amp and speakers to the analyzer. Wash, rinse, repeat; wash, rinse, repeat.
When it's right, it's right. But it sure takes a while.
I've always had trouble adjusting Phase. What do people use other than "play a piece with good bass, then adjust til it sounds best". Absolute phase is easy for me. Zero to One Eighty, not so much. I've seen some interesting suggestions online:
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/setting-subwoofer-phase-easy-way
but am wide open to other suggestions.
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I've always had trouble adjusting Phase. What do people use other than "play a piece with good bass, then adjust til it sounds best". Absolute phase is easy for me. Zero to One Eighty, not so much. I've seen some interesting suggestions online:
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/setting-subwoofer-phase-easy-way
but am wide open to other suggestions.
Generally speaking, the most important place to have the sub and speaker in-phase is at the crossover point. Here's a cool trick. Try to make the phase as bad as possible. You can see when phase is bad because you'll get a very bad/deep null at the crossover point. Once you make it as bad as you possibly can, just reverse the phase 180 degrees. Now you have perfect phase at the crossover point.
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Just wondering what the recommended GR Sub hook up is to an amplifier? Is it to just run the positive leads of the amp to the servo amp inputs, or should one add a negative connection on one channel as well?
Rocket Ronny
Rocket,
If you are asking about from preamp to servo amp I just use the plus + rca out from the pre to the plus + rca in on the servo amp.
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My question is not about running from the preamp to the servo amps, but from the the poweramp to the servo amps. So in this case one would run the possitive leads from the amp to the servo amp inputs, but is it recommended to also run a negative.
Rocket Ronny
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If you are running the amplifier outputs as inputs to the A370PEQ, then you need both + and - wires. Do that for both servo amps.
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My question is not about running from the preamp to the servo amps, but from the the poweramp to the servo amps. So in this case one would run the possitive leads from the amp to the servo amp inputs, but is it recommended to also run a negative.
Rocket Ronny
If you are using the speaker binding posts from the power amp to the speaker level inputs on the Rythmik and then you connect it like you would a pair of speakers, both positive and negative leads.
If your power amp has multiple pairs of speaker binding posts, connect the Rythmik amp to the same pair of binding posts your speakers are connected to.
If your power amp has two pair of binding posts (A speakers and B speakers) and you connect the speakers to A and the Rythmik plate amp to B you will likely blow the amp. I did that and now I have a dead power amp to send off for repairs.
Mike
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Now those are the answers I am looking for. Thanks
With some subs they only want the positives and one negative hooked up, so these are different that way.
Rocket Ronny
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Ah, THROWBACK just sent me his diagram that he created and asked me to post it. Here it is, feel free to use it:
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y10/tyort1/PEQ%20Settings%20FR_Page_1.jpeg)
I've had a copy of this for awhile, but never printed it out and used it. :duh:
Decided to give it a try and printed out several copies. Noticed that the frequencies matched up with Alan Parson's Sound Check 2 disc and pulled it out. Fired up my old Radio Shack Digital SPL Meter (and a fresh battery) and settled in for the long haul while the Wife was away.
After running through the thing a few times (one channel at a time), something started to click and my random changing of levels began to make more sense. Pretty soon I had a reasonably consistent level at frequencies from 20 - 400 with a peak around 125 that I still need to tame. My big dropout around 60-70 is gone!
I then pulled out the Omnimic and checked the FR with it - pretty much the same. Very happy with the results.
Full, powerful, clean Bass with no muddiness or bloat. Fast when it should be. No room excitation on my problem wall. Overall listening is improved even further. I'm back to playing around with the room treatments trying to get the best soundstage that I can in the room (definitely different then before - I don't like it as well with the treatments where they were previously. New/different locations resulting in better sound)
Thank you THROWBACK for making this sheet! Highly recommended for anybody. It is so much easier with things written down in a well organized fashion than trying to remember what you changed a couple of attempts back..... :scratch:
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Well, if you are just going for SPL levels then that will do it.
You've got the wrong idea Danny. With the right shape giant concrete bass horns provide highly dynamic, un-colored sound. Horns need to be big to go really low. Concrete construction is needed to have sufficient wall stiffness to avoid wall flexing distortions.
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"Thank you THROWBACK for making this sheet!"
You're welcome, SoCalWJS. I'm happy you found it useful.
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You've got the wrong idea Danny. With the right shape giant concrete bass horns provide highly dynamic, un-colored sound. Horns need to be big to go really low. Concrete construction is needed to have sufficient wall stiffness to avoid wall flexing distortions.
I am sure that they can be very dynamic, but it is still a far cry from being the highest level of bass reproduction. You still have to deal with how it loads the room, or overloads the room. Evening out the room loading would be next to impossible. And you are still limited in quality to the longer settling times on an uncontrolled driver.
I'll take servo control with open baffles any day.
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Simple, Bass = OB subs. Two per side and be happy real happy.
charles
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Simple, Bass = OB subs. Two per side and be happy real happy.
charles
+1 :thumb:
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If I were to pair some OB GR woofers with, let's say an Apogee Scintilla MRTW array (deleting the woofer panel) could the 370 amp go up to 300hz? Can the woofers even go that high? They are labeled as subwoofers so maybe not? I don't really want / like a separate subwoofer for music.
The woofer on the Scintilla is 300Hz @ 6dB (First Order).
Doing this so I have the best of both worlds, ribbon highs and cone lows. Or will I need to go active?
The 370 amp seems to only go to 120hz, via the dial.
I'm thinking of 3 12" 16Ohm subs per side in H Frame. For fun.
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If I were to pair some OB GR woofers with, let's say an Apogee Scintilla MRTW array (deleting the woofer panel) could the 370 amp go up to 300hz? Can the woofers even go that high? They are labeled as subwoofers so maybe not? I don't really want / like a separate subwoofer for music.
The woofer on the Scintilla is 300Hz @ 6dB (First Order).
Doing this so I have the best of both worlds, ribbon highs and cone lows. Or will I need to go active?
The 370 amp seems to only go to 120hz, via the dial.
I'm thinking of 3 12" 16Ohm subs per side in H Frame. For fun.
The number in the crossover dial on the A370 amps are reference points relating to the electrical slope. They are not a crossing over point. The crossover point is where the acoustic output of the two drivers are both 6db down.
And I have crossed the A370 amp driving dual SW-12-16FR woofers as high as 300Hz.
For reference, on the Super-7's the crossover point is in the 180Hz range to the planar magnetic Neo 10's. So the setting on the crossover dial is in about the 90Hz range.
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Fascinating. I still have a lot to learn from you.
I'm still working on the wife to allow me to purchase 6 OB subs and 2x OB H Frame Cabinets. Then I'll have both a Scintilla MRTW array to mate with it as well as a electrostatic panel, for fun :)
While I love the bass from the Scintilla ribbon, it's both A. HUGE in size, B. Not the best for the music I listen to (synthesized bass so it will "bottom out" so to speak) and C. Hard to drive.
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Fascinating. I still have a lot to learn from you.
I'm still working on the wife to allow me to purchase 6 OB subs and 2x OB H Frame Cabinets. Then I'll have both a Scintilla MRTW array to mate with it as well as a electrostatic panel, for fun :)
While I love the bass from the Scintilla ribbon, it's both A. HUGE in size, B. Not the best for the music I listen to (synthesized bass so it will "bottom out" so to speak) and C. Hard to drive.
Be very careful here. Once you get used to Servo OB bass, you'll have a very hard time listening to any other bass systems :thumb:
One thing you might do - see if you can get the OB subs finished to match the finish on the Apogees, so visually it looks nicer and less random.
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Well if I remove the MRTW assembly from the Scintilla, there will be no facia to replicate. But I agree, it would be cool if they looked alike. Or piano black OB frames and piano red MRTW facia that will have to be made. The MRTW array (naked) is just ugly steel.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=157964)
Piano Black is a PITA, these went back for polishing twice before we shipped. gfrills are actually black too, flash makes them look grey.
Nice to look at, don't touch... buy lots of dust Off :beer:
jay
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=157964)
Piano Black is a PITA, these went back for polishing twice before we shipped. gfrills are actually black too, flash makes them look grey.
Nice to look at, don't touch... buy lots of dust Off :beer:
jay
Beautiful! I've had piano black speakers before, and yes I agree they are a PITA, just like anything black and glossy :)
If you assembled those first and painted, the shipping cost must have been nuts, unless he's a local bloke.
Your prices for flat packs, is that including shipping or is that additional? To zip 92844?
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Beautiful! I've had piano black speakers before, and yes I agree they are a PITA, just like anything black and glossy :)
If you assembled those first and painted, the shipping cost must have been nuts, unless he's a local bloke.
Your prices for flat packs, is that including shipping or is that additional? To zip 92844?
Wasn't local, sending them out finished does increas the shipping costs, the box for each dual sub ends up being 24"x24"x36", approx 75 lbs. We get 2 flat packs in less than half of that volume .
Flat pack pricing does NOT include shipping..... no mark up though, you pay what the quote says .
jay
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Rythmik Audio F12G Direct Servo Subwoofer In-Depth Review 2013 -> 2020, by Erin Hardison (hardisj)
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/rythmik-f12g-direct-servo-subwoofer/
(https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/images/Reviews/Loudspeakers/Rythmik_F12_Servo/1_IMG_6367.JPG)
(https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/images/Reviews/Loudspeakers/Rythmik_F12_Servo/1_f12_driver_Fundamental___Harmonic_distortion_components_at_2.83v1m__Normalized_.png)
(https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/images/Reviews/Loudspeakers/Rythmik_F12_Servo/1_f12_driver_Fundamental___Harmonic_distortion_components_at_20v1m__Normalized_.png)
[ Raw Subwoofer Drive Unit Conclusion:
On its own, this driver performs really well. The low Fs of 20.8Hz, reasonable enclosure size requirements, good linearity, and low distortion with nearly 18mm one-way linear excursion all are attributes that make this a great value at its current MSRP of $179. I honestly would have no issue at all recommending it. Getting down to brass tacks, what this means is with the F12G Subwoofer, you know you have a great starting point with the SW-12-04 driver.
One thing that is a nice added touch is the felt material on the underside of the cone (shown in the pictures above). This is to minimize any audible tinsel lead slap on the cone. And I can say without a doubt, as I was testing this woofer to very high excursion levels (likely higher than anyone would actually achieve in real use), I never once heard any mechanical noise from the woofer driver.
Overall, the Harmonic Distortion components at 2.83v/1m are really low. The red PHD line is a representation of perceived harmonic distortion. You’ll note this is very, very low. With 20v input, putting the mean SPL from 20 to 300hz at about 98dB, THD climbs to about 3% THD at 60hz. However, this is mostly comprised of 2nd order distortion while 3rd order distortion is below 1.5%. Whether or not this is an audible factor seems to be of hot debate. The key here is the relationship between 2nd and 3rd order and that they’re well separated, indicating no serious flaws in the driver. ]
(https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/images/Reviews/Loudspeakers/Rythmik_F12_Servo/1_IMG_6366.JPG)
(https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/images/Reviews/Loudspeakers/Rythmik_F12_Servo/1_IMG_6375.JPG)
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12G.html
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Keep in mind, that driver is for sealed enclosures, not OB use. For OB use, you need to use either the SW12 08FR ( in duals/quads ) or the SW12 16FR (duals, triples, quads, or arays of 6).
jay
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I'll say that the sealed FG12 woofer is the best box bass I've heard. But yeah, it's not going to hold a candle to the dual OB servo subs for music.
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http://gr-research.com/diysubwooferkits.aspx
The Servo Sub kit 2
http://gr-research.com/servosubkit2.aspx
(http://gr-research.com/images/kit%202.jpg)
-> http://gr-research.com/sw-12-04.aspx
(http://gr-research.com/ProductImages/SW-12-04.jpg)
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/GRci.html
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I'll say that the sealed FG12 woofer is the best box bass I've heard. But yeah, it's not going to hold a candle to the dual OB servo subs for music.
I agree. That's why I have both in my OB system. OB subs for main speaker duties and the sealed sub for movie special effects.
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YouTube FAST BASS! What Audiophiles need to know! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOd0fnN3VCY)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205574&size=medium) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOd0fnN3VCY)
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Rythmic L12 Subwoofer Review, closed sub
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/rythmic-l12-subwoofer-review.12140/
(https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/rythmic-l12-subwoofer-audio-review-jpg.55085/)
(https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/rythmic-l12-subwoofer-spinorama-cea-2034-audio-measurements-png.55089/)
(https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/rythmic-l12-subwoofer-distortion-audio-measurements-png.55090/)