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Other Stuff => Archived Circles => Hypex Owners Circle => Topic started by: zenpmd on 19 Mar 2014, 09:26 am

Title: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 19 Mar 2014, 09:26 am
Hi all

I build my own computers and I figured building my amp would be similarly straight forward, but I feel so confused! I've never soldered before, and I cannot really work out what to do with the Hypex datasheets!!! Is there any online guide somewhere, step by step, tips? I just don't know to start...Thanks
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 19 Mar 2014, 10:59 am
Hi all

I build my own computers and I figured building my amp would be similarly straight forward, but I feel so confused! I've never soldered before, and I cannot really work out what to do with the Hypex datasheets!!! Is there any online guide somewhere, step by step, tips? I just don't know to start...Thanks
Not really an online guide but we can help.  Buy your stuff and ask away when the question(s) arise.  The only thing you really need to solder will be the binding posts.  Other than that, it's really not a big deal whatsoever.  If you can build computers, you can do this. 


There are a few threads in this circle that are stickied that can help with parts selection.  But feel free in making this your build thread.   :D
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Nick77 on 19 Mar 2014, 11:23 am
There are also a few experienced Ncore builders here who are willing to assemble your amp for small fee.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 19 Mar 2014, 12:25 pm
Thanks so much guys. I will write everything I have done so far/need to know further once I have gathered my thoughts this afternoon. Everything is already bought and sitting in our spare room...! :)
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 19 Mar 2014, 01:13 pm
Thanks so much guys. I will write everything I have done so far/need to know further once I have gathered my thoughts this afternoon. Everything is already bought and sitting in our spare room...! :)
Great.  Ask away.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 20 Mar 2014, 04:52 pm
Ok so I have tried to look at how everything fits together and have the following questions/assumptions. I am super grateful for any input as I feel out of my depth here!

1. Black 4 pin on SMPS is plugged in, once stripped, where does this wire into? What does this cable do?

2. Black 12 pin on SMPS presumably just plugs into black 12pin on amp right? What does this cable do?

3. 7 pin white connector plus into 7 pin white on amp, but cannot see a space for it on SMPS? What does this cable do?

4. 3 pin white with a brown and blue cable plugged into amp where does this wire into when stripped? What does this cable do?

5. There is one cable that is not clear to be at all, which is a black 12 pin with loose wires on the other end. What does this do?

5. With soldering, what temp shall I use, which flux, and which soldering material?

6. I'd like to buy some wire to practice stripping with, what should I ask for in the shop?

7. I hear of people talking (from my research months ago) about twisted wire of some sort? What is this?

8. I have the power connectors for the case, two XLR connections (I will be use Vam Damme cables),  and speaker connections. Is there anything else I need to buy?

I am using the siliconray cases, and eventually system will be connected to a Benchmark Dac2 (and Anthony Gallo Speakers).

Thanks!
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 21 Mar 2014, 02:04 pm
So yes, I'm definately stupid as I bought the connections from Hypex and not silicon ray so they are on order now!! I will delete that question above. Help on the other stuff much apreciated!
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 21 Mar 2014, 02:42 pm
Your NC400 should have come with this (http://www.hypex.nl/docs/NC400_datasheet.pdf) and your SMPS should have come with this. (http://www.hypex.nl/docs/SMPS600_Datasheet.pdf) 

All the answers to those connector questions are in those sheets.  If for some reason you are not able to find them, we can try to help but it's very simple. 


This thread (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106187.0) should help you immensely too.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 22 Mar 2014, 05:58 pm
Thanks. I hadnt seen these as they did not come with my package for some reason so I wil read and digest.

One quick question, as I dont yet have an IEC for the siliconray, do you know what I can buy that will fit the screw holes? Thanks
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 22 Mar 2014, 06:01 pm
One quick question, as I dont yet have an IEC for the siliconray, do you know what I can buy that will fit the screw holes? Thanks
See post #1 here (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106336.msg1088558#msg1088558) unless you have something special.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 23 Mar 2014, 07:33 am
Thanks. So IECs have a standard screw arrangement right?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 23 Mar 2014, 12:19 pm
Thanks. So IECs have a standard screw arrangement right?
No.  You must check the data sheets for each IEC vs the Silicon Ray Case you have.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 24 Mar 2014, 06:28 am
What is annoying is that Furutech, for example, provide no such data!

http://www.furutech.com/2013/02/03/7750/
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: srb on 24 Mar 2014, 06:50 am
What is annoying is that Furutech, for example, provide no such data!

I don't know why datasheets can't be found on the Furutech website, but Parts Connexion has datasheets for many of the Furutech products.  For example, here is one for the FI-33 IEC:
http://www.partsconnexion.com/prod_pdf/ftech_71044.pdf

The dimensioning is a bit hard to read, but it's there.

Steve
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 24 Mar 2014, 10:41 am
Thanks guys. I had a hard time finding a 40mm screw pitch but I got it!

http://www.revolutionpower.com/p/Oyaide+IEC-CM+174-R+IEC+Silver+Rhodium+Chassis+Inlet/94/
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 24 Mar 2014, 11:26 am
Thanks guys. I had a hard time finding a 40mm screw pitch but I got it!

http://www.revolutionpower.com/p/Oyaide+IEC-CM+174-R+IEC+Silver+Rhodium+Chassis+Inlet/94/ (http://www.revolutionpower.com/p/Oyaide+IEC-CM+174-R+IEC+Silver+Rhodium+Chassis+Inlet/94/)
Onto the next step!
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 24 Mar 2014, 12:39 pm
Haha!

Progress is slow! This stupid silicon ray case is causing more effort than they are worth, as I was going to buy some WBT binding posts except they need 11.5mm whereas siliconray is 10mm, so I found some cheap ones and ordered those. I could have got the drill out but I am trying to focus on what is important at this stage, getting the thing up and running! So internal speaker cable, IECs, and binding posts are on their way. I already have xlr cables and connections.

I won't worry about this now but I've spent time this morning looking at IECs with built in filters, are they worth it?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 24 Mar 2014, 12:41 pm
I won't worry about this now but I've spent time this morning looking at IECs with built in filters, are they worth it?
Not for these IMO.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 24 Mar 2014, 12:46 pm
Is that because noise reduction is built into the design of the power supply/amp itself?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 24 Mar 2014, 12:48 pm
Is that because noise reduction is built into the design of the power supply/amp itself?
Yes, you can do it and it probably wouldn't do any harm but it's not needed IMO. In fact, many have reported that the amps subjectively sound better when powered directly from the wall. 
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 24 Mar 2014, 12:53 pm
What about the mains cable itself?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 24 Mar 2014, 12:58 pm
I won't worry about this now but I've spent time this morning looking at IECs with built in filters, are they worth it?

If I remember correctly, Bruno has specifically warned against them, as the usual type of filter provide an undesirable  ground path.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 24 Mar 2014, 01:23 pm
What about the mains cable itself?
In terms of what?  I used the stock one.  All of that stuff is so minor compared to the big picture.  My advice is to get the amps built and then if you choose to start tinkering, do it.  I find it hard to belive that once you get it built, you will have any desire to putz around wtih them though.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 24 Mar 2014, 01:25 pm
What about the mains cable itself?

Yes, you should use one. :)
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 24 Mar 2014, 05:07 pm
In terms of what?  I used the stock one.  All of that stuff is so minor compared to the big picture.  My advice is to get the amps built and then if you choose to start tinkering, do it.  I find it hard to belive that once you get it built, you will have any desire to putz around wtih them though.

I didnt realise there was a stock one. I dont have one. But I will get one. I have never been one to spend on cables, its all BS isnt it! :)
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 24 Mar 2014, 05:20 pm
I didnt realise there was a stock one. I dont have one. But I will get one. I have never been one to spend on cables, its all BS isnt it! :)
All the wiring needed comes with the NC400 & SMPS that you need to wire them together and make them work.  Have you unpacked everything and looked at everything compared to the link I provided above to the build thread?  Doing this will make the whole project make perfect sense. 


Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 24 Mar 2014, 05:25 pm
Maybe we're talking cross purposes, I mean the cable from the IEC inlet to the plug socket in your wall
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 24 Mar 2014, 05:38 pm
Maybe we're talking cross purposes, I mean the cable from the IEC inlet to the plug socket in your wall
OH.  I thought you were talking about the mains cable from the IEC to the SMPS.  Just use a well designed 3 conductor cable.   ;)
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 24 Mar 2014, 06:54 pm
I picked the Cratos up as it was half price

http://www.blackrhodium.co.uk/PDFs/product-information-sheets/BlackRhodiumLibraCratos.pdf
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 24 Mar 2014, 06:57 pm
I picked the Cratos up as it was half price

http://www.blackrhodium.co.uk/PDFs/product-information-sheets/BlackRhodiumLibraCratos.pdf (http://www.blackrhodium.co.uk/PDFs/product-information-sheets/BlackRhodiumLibraCratos.pdf)
Never heard of them but that doesn't mean a thing.  Yep, three conductors....they wil work just fine!   :thumb:
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 24 Mar 2014, 07:17 pm
They're English like me, and most of their products appear to be snakeoil :)
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 25 Mar 2014, 09:23 am
They're English like me, and most of their products appear to be snakeoil :)

Ah, yes.

 "The positive and negative cores are connected in opposite directions. Experience shows
that when cables are connected this way (and both cables are connected in the same
direction) the noise floor between the musical notes lowers. This gives ‘blacker’ silences in
the interval between musical notes and enhances reproduction of the musical edges and
natural decays in music."

I hope you didn't pay more than a fiver for the cable...

Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 25 Mar 2014, 11:55 am
The problem is, the bargain was relative... £45 each.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 25 Mar 2014, 01:18 pm
The problem is, the bargain was relative... £45 each.
As long as you're happy that's all that matters.  Now, back to NCore... :green:
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 25 Mar 2014, 03:59 pm
Right, some specific questions now I've digested the data sheets. I have to admit I don't understand them really, but I can read where to put the cables which is the main thing! :green: All looks quite simple.

1. J1 - Aux and Control on the SMPS - its not clear what that attaches to? I assume in the standard set up you don't bother with this as it is an on/off switch or something?

2. I am glad I bought a balanced DAC for this as that simplifies things. In terms of wiring, I see there are two heavily insulated wires and one thin third one on its own. Where do they do on the balanced case connection?

3. Same question for the power - I have two cables, where do they go on the 3 pins?

For both 2 and 3 do I solder them in?

I think thats it for now! Thanks guys.

Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 25 Mar 2014, 04:59 pm
What country are you in?  More specifically what is your mains voltage?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 25 Mar 2014, 05:02 pm
UK, 230 V
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 25 Mar 2014, 05:30 pm
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105527.msg1152831#msg1152831
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 25 Mar 2014, 05:47 pm

1. J1 - Aux and Control on the SMPS - its not clear what that attaches to? I assume in the standard set up you don't bother with this as it is an on/off switch or something?
Not really needed.


Quote
2. I am glad I bought a balanced DAC for this as that simplifies things. In terms of wiring, I see there are two heavily insulated wires and one thin third one on its own. Where do they do on the balanced case connection?
The single black wire part of the input wiring is for the nAMPON.  This needs to go to ground or to a switch if you want to leave them powered 24/7 but have it not be able to play through the amps.  As for wiring, see here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XLR_connector) and scroll down a little for pinout of an XLR.  With this and the datasheet it's all there.

Quote
3. Same question for the power - I have two cables, where do they go on the 3 pins?
L, N and G if you wish but make certain there is enough space for the amp to be Class 2 per the data sheet.

Quote
For both 2 and 3 do I solder them in?

2 for sure but mains depends on the input power connector.

**NOTE**  It is very important to remember that these voltages are lethal.  They can kill you. 
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 25 Mar 2014, 07:40 pm
Re the safety, what I dont understand when looking at the "area within red" on the SMPS schematic, is that how does just putting something in a case with 6mm clearance make it "safe" it all sounds rather dangerous to me!
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 25 Mar 2014, 07:41 pm
In particular, according to class 2 wikipedia page, it requires insulation for class 2? Can I build in a earth for safety anyway?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 25 Mar 2014, 07:45 pm
Can I build in a earth for safety anyway?
Sure, it will not hurt anything but very rare it could cause some noise but do it and then you will know.  Just make sure you take off the anodize if there is any.  Then, just do a continuity check (IEC Ground Pin to chassis) to make sure it's working. 
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 25 Mar 2014, 09:35 pm
That just went straight over my head...
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 25 Mar 2014, 11:57 pm
That just went straight over my head...
:scratch:   I don't know how to make it anymore clear.  Perhaps someone else can chime in and do a better job. 


Have you ever wired anything? 


I want to be clear though...we want you to assemble this amp and enjoy the wonderful performace that it offers.  Your safety is very important too.  If you are not absolutely sure about something, ask.  With these high voltages it doesn't take much to hurt yourself.  Also, it's just as important to make sure that what you are doing is safe long term.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: greenkiwi on 26 Mar 2014, 05:46 am
He was just giving directions/cautions for connecting ground to the case.  Ensure that the location you connect ground to doesn't have any anodization on it, and further, use a multimeter to ensure that all your grounds are connected.  i.e. have effectively 0ohm resistance between them
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 26 Mar 2014, 07:36 am
I won't worry about grounding for now. But I am still concerned that class 2 requires insulation,yet siliconray has no insulation
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 26 Mar 2014, 07:48 am
jtwrace - No, I've not wired anything before!  8)
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 26 Mar 2014, 10:46 am
Re the safety, what I dont understand when looking at the "area within red" on the SMPS schematic, is that how does just putting something in a case with 6mm clearance make it "safe" it all sounds rather dangerous to me!

A case prevents you from touching those areas. The 6 mm clearance prevents the voltage from jumping the gap.

 
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 26 Mar 2014, 10:47 am
I won't worry about grounding for now. But I am still concerned that class 2 requires insulation,yet siliconray has no insulation

Air is a pretty good insulator.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 26 Mar 2014, 10:55 am
Got you, understood Julf. Thanks
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 28 Mar 2014, 07:59 am
Right, more questions! I wasted loads of time yesterday as my siliconray case didnt come with any screws! Looking into wiring again, I see that the XLR female in the case is a standard array

1 - Ground

2 - Positive

3 Negative.

If the boards have no ground does that mean I do not wire no 1? Just 2 and 3, being the two cables heavily insulated and not the thin wire. Can I avoid soldering by using those little quick disconnects on XLR as well as power? As shown here

(http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/1/14409/oyaide_power_inlet_r-3.jpg)

On the back of the Neutrick female plug, other than ther 3 input terminals, there is a little silver catch, what is this used for?

With my IEC inlet,  I have the 3 pins. Top left is L, Top right is N. The single bottom pin is unmarked. Do I just leave this unconnected and connect brown to L and Blue to N?




Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 28 Mar 2014, 04:36 pm
Does this make sense to anyone?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Speedskater on 28 Mar 2014, 07:29 pm
That's a photo of a AC power inlet connector chassis jack. It has 3 terminals:
AC Hot
AC Neutral
Safety Ground/Protective Earth - This terminal connects to the metal chassis near this connector not to the Main Audio Ground.

An XLR balanced  analog interconnect chassis jack has 3 terminals.
Pins #2 & #3 are for the audio signal.
Pin #1 is the shield not the audio circuit ground. It is connected to the metal chassis near this connector not to the Main Audio Ground.
 
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 15 Apr 2014, 07:16 pm
Sorry for going quiet on this everyone, I am currently in the process of moving country and will be back soon!
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: greenkiwi on 22 Apr 2014, 05:20 am
For the IEC inlet, the single pin on the top, unlabeled is ground.

The L is for Live (AC Hot as @Speedskater mentioned), and N is for AC Neutral.

http://www.electronics2000.co.uk/pin-out/iec.php

(http://www.electronics2000.co.uk/images/data/iecdiag.png)
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Toaster on 23 Jul 2014, 05:21 pm
Rather than start another thread: Finally getting my NC400s built. I'm quite an experienced builder but haven't wired up chassis XLRs before. No problem with the basic hook up of pins 1-3 and shield > pin 1 has also been connected to the chassis. On the Neutrik chassis sockets there is a tab next to pin 1 which is part of the socket's metalwork. Am I right to assume that this also connects to pin 1? TIA!
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 23 Jul 2014, 07:10 pm
If it already connects to the chassis metalwork, there is no need to connect it at all. If you have a plastic (or other non-conductive) enclosure it should be connected to chassis ground.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Toaster on 23 Jul 2014, 07:33 pm
Cheers Julf! Should get at least one pair going tonight.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 25 Jul 2014, 08:59 am
Should get at least one pair going tonight.

How did it go?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Toaster on 26 Jul 2014, 02:37 am
Thanks for asking, unfortunately the answer to your question is 'badly'! Internal speaker wiring to hand was too stiff to twist and just generally infuriating to dress for such a short run. All six monos now rewired with something a good deal more flexible. Time allowing they should be running tomorrow. Probably...
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: greenkiwi on 28 Jul 2014, 04:54 pm
Looking forward to hearing your results.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Toaster on 30 Jul 2014, 04:56 pm
Got 'em all going. Can't really add much to previous positive reports. Clean, powerful, no noticable character, no spurious noise, switch on and off is perfectly civilised, heat doesn't seem to be an issue. very nice! The nearest I can get to audiophilia is to say that the clarity helps to differentiate tonal colours and stereo placement and there seems to be a greater sense of momentum to music that is supposed to sound propulsive. Musical dynamics also seem more expressive and obvious. This is all just anecdotal though, even though these are my impressions I wouldn't like to try to quantify them! The overall impression is more like music and a bit less like hi-fi, which is a good thing.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 30 Jul 2014, 06:07 pm
Good to hear!

As to descriptions of sound quality, the only one I want to hear is "it doesn't color or distort the sound in any audible way" :)
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 30 Jul 2014, 09:14 pm
Hi Everyone

I am back, the clueless idiot who started this thread who, after a long period travelling, can finally get these amps up and running! Just some things  I wanted to check now I've looked at things again:

1. Twisted speaker cable. I assume you just twist and put a cable tie or similar to hold in place. I assume this doesnt mean you have to strip all the way back and twist and that you just twist in its insulated form?

2. Speaker connections on amp. Am I right in saying it connects to the underside? Between the square nut and the underside of the  connection? How do you determine positive or negative? No marks on my speakers to follow it all the way through.

3.  J9 on the amp, is the input from the DAC, right? I ignore the thin cable and split the thick one, connecting to two connections in balance output on the case, right? But which two? I still havent worked this out.

4. J1 on the SPMS I dont connect right?

5. J3. Power in. I have a brown and a blue cable. I have L and N, and will ignore G as I am doing class 2 with correct clearances. But which is L and which is N, the brown or the blue?

Thanks everyone, any help much appreciated!

Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 31 Jul 2014, 05:46 am
1. Twisted speaker cable. I assume you just twist and put a cable tie or similar to hold in place. I assume this doesnt mean you have to strip all the way back and twist and that you just twist in its insulated form?

Twisting the uninsulated part would short the cables! Only strip the minimum amount you need to connect the cable ends, twist the rest.

Quote
2. Speaker connections on amp. Am I right in saying it connects to the underside? Between the square nut and the underside of the  connection?

No - between the square nut and the top, so that the screw can apply force to the cable.

Quote
How do you determine positive or negative? No marks on my speakers to follow it all the way through.

On the nc400, positive is closer to the outer edge. As long as you are consistent with both (all) channels, absolute phase doesn't matter.

Quote
3.  J9 on the amp, is the input from the DAC, right? I ignore the thin cable and split the thick one, connecting to two connections in balance output on the case, right? But which two? I still havent worked this out.

The thin cable is nAMPON - if you ignore it, the amp will not turn on. You have to connect it to ground. Pin 1 is non-inverting and pin 2 inverting input - again, absolute phase doesn't matter, so yes, connect them to the balanced outputs of your DAC.

Quote
5. J3. Power in. I have a brown and a blue cable. I have L and N, and will ignore G as I am doing class 2 with correct clearances. But which is L and which is N, the brown or the blue?

Brown is L and blue is N.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 31 Jul 2014, 02:06 pm
Thanks Julf. I think this makes sense. I will take another look tonight.

In the mean time, I've lost one of the insulated mounts for the power supply. Any idea what I can use as a substitute to act least get up and running?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 1 Aug 2014, 11:52 am
In the mean time, I've lost one of the insulated mounts for the power supply. Any idea what I can use as a substitute to act least get up and running?

Where are you based? Anywhere that is served by any of the overnight-delivery electronics supply companies (RS, Farnell/element14, Conrad, ...)?

As a temporary measure, anything that isolates will do (plastic, wood etc).
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 1 Aug 2014, 11:55 am
Please remember to post pictures for all to see.  Peeps love pics!   :thumb:
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 3 Aug 2014, 03:08 pm
So to confirm (I am just about to solder):

On the XLR connection, white is positive, and that goes in no2. on the XLR and blue is negative and that goes in no3. right?!
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 3 Aug 2014, 03:39 pm
 I am getting really pssed off and wish I never started this project to be honest. Hypex instructions are as clear as mud, and I dont understand why nowhere will even tell me how to wire the XLR.!!!

Pulling my damn hair out and not enjoying myself
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 3 Aug 2014, 04:05 pm
OK I have finished wiring I think. Can someone take a look and tell me whether I can now connect up and switch on?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=103280)
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 3 Aug 2014, 06:49 pm
I switched it on, but nothing. Checked signal to DAC and its fine as headphones work. Speaker just gives out a hum. Any ideas? Thanks
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 3 Aug 2014, 06:51 pm
I switched it on, but nothing. Checked signal to DAC and its fine as headphones work. Speaker just gives out a hum. Any ideas? Thanks
Do the lights come on the NC400?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 3 Aug 2014, 07:08 pm
There is one red light?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 3 Aug 2014, 07:13 pm
There is one red light?
It's been a very long time since I've had NC400's but there are lights so that's a good sign. 

Pin 2 is hot on the XLR.  You need to make sure that you have that correct.  Also, the black wire that's on the input loom goes to chassis ground.  Make sure that's connected as is the XLR ground to chassis. 
Also, make sure the ribbon cable and other loom with the large molex connectors is really seated into each module (NC400 & SMPS). 


MAKE SURE UNIT IS UNPLUGGED!
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 3 Aug 2014, 07:20 pm
All the info is in the datasheet. 


If you have a DMM and check continuity it's really simple. 


 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=103293)
 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=103294)


Lets get it working first and then we can tidy up the build a little.  You want the speaker wires on the NC400 to enter the posts from the same side. 
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: srb on 3 Aug 2014, 07:27 pm
I would also check that your speaker output binding post insulators are correctly installed and working so that there is no short to ground through the chassis.

Steve
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 3 Aug 2014, 07:28 pm
that diagram is meaningless, as there is no way of telling which cable comes from each pin!?

What is pin 4? There are only three cables coming from that connection: positive, negative and Nampon. And hypex does not even seem to say which out of the blue and white is positive (hot) or negative (cold).

What I have done is as per the photo, I cant really explain it because I have no idea what I am plugging where, as Im doing everything by rote.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 3 Aug 2014, 07:28 pm
I would also check that your speaker output binding post insulators are correctly installed and working so that there is no short to ground through the chassis.

Steve
Thanks Steve but I have no idea what this means?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 3 Aug 2014, 07:43 pm
That diagram is all you need!  Did you use a DMM as I suggested?  That will help you a bunch.


Also, there are four wires in that loom.  Blue, white, black Nampon and the shield.  You need them all.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 3 Aug 2014, 08:40 pm
What is the sheild?

I dont have a DMM.

Sorry for being slow.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 3 Aug 2014, 09:20 pm
The silver mesh that's around the wire loom. 


This thread (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105438.msg1112332#msg1112332) will probably help you. 
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 3 Aug 2014, 09:33 pm
Ah crap. In that case it looks like Ill have to rewire. Cut off what Ive got, somehow salvace the balanced input connector, and start again on that connection. I dont see any other way of making the sheild reach. What does that sheild achieve?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 4 Aug 2014, 05:32 am
Here is a better photo of what Ive done so far

http://s2.postimg.org/cnfm81gux/sleeping_3.jpg
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 4 Aug 2014, 12:08 pm
Here is a better photo of what Ive done so far

http://s2.postimg.org/cnfm81gux/sleeping_3.jpg (http://s2.postimg.org/cnfm81gux/sleeping_3.jpg)
Yes, your first main issue is with the XLR wiring as I've said above.  Then it's just about cleaning everything else up.  Get the input wiring done and you will be on your way. 


Where are you located?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 4 Aug 2014, 04:00 pm
I live in England.

Is Nampon in the IEC an effective ground?

So I get the shield, twist it into a cable, and then solder it where? Can I get another wire and just extent what little shield I can muster in order to not have to redo the other soldering?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 4 Aug 2014, 08:47 pm
I have just attached nampon to the screw on the xlr connection instead of IEC. Still the same hum and nothing else.

I am going to write to Hypex telling them their manual is terrible and useless. Everything I have done is super basic, none of this is hard, so I am in all the more disbeliedf that the manual doesnt just say "put this here, put this there..." etc.!

What else do I do? Something with this sheild thing?
Modify message
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 4 Aug 2014, 09:20 pm
I have just attached nampon to the screw on the xlr connection instead of IEC. Still the same hum and nothing else.

I am going to write to Hypex telling them their manual is terrible and useless. Everything I have done is super basic, none of this is hard, so I am in all the more disbeliedf that the manual doesnt just say "put this here, put this there..." etc.!

What else do I do? Something with this sheild thing?
Modify message
The funny part is that the manual does say that.....I posted it above including the links that have it. 


Again, You need the shield!!!


Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 4 Aug 2014, 09:24 pm
So to double confirm, where do I connect the sheild to?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: barrows on 4 Aug 2014, 09:32 pm
Nampon, the thin black wire from the input section of each module must connect to ground.
Shield, the braided covering around the input wiring must connect to ground, pull back some shield, twist it together, and then connect it to ground.

Typically, assuming a metal chassis, the standard way to build a NC-400 based amplifier is to connect the shield to the chassis, usually close to the XLR jack-yes, it can be connected via the screw holding the XLR jack in place as long as there is a good connection there (metal to metal, must remove any paint or anodizing at the connection point).  And then connect the Nampon wire to chassis as well: I prefer to connect the Nampon via a switch, which can then be used to put the amp in a standby mode (switch off) which mutes the output.  But in any case, both the shield and Nampon must be connected to ground, and the typical way to do that is to connect them both to chassis, and run a short wire from the XLR pin 1 also to chassis.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 4 Aug 2014, 09:42 pm
Hmmm. Just connected both nampon and sheild to xlr cable and got huge noise coming out of speaker. Like a massive burst of distortion. Any idea? I connected sheild using blue tack.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 4 Aug 2014, 09:43 pm
Hmmm. Just connected both nampon and sheild to xlr cable and got huge noise coming out of speaker. Like a massive burst of distortion. Any idea? I connected sheild using blue tack.
That's a first!  Not going to work....solder.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 4 Aug 2014, 09:43 pm
Should I get some wire from xlr input point 1 and also connect to ground?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 4 Aug 2014, 09:45 pm
Make sure you're going to the proper pin.  See the picture here http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/XLR_connector
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: farquad on 5 Aug 2014, 04:33 am
Here is a better photo of what Ive done so far

http://s2.postimg.org/cnfm81gux/sleeping_3.jpg
I might be wrong but are the speaker terminals installed wrong?
In the picture,  it looks like there are double white and double red insulation on the inside of the case.
Usually the terminals have one insulation piece which goes on the inside of case and one on the outside. If not installed correctly one connection might be to close to the case.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 5 Aug 2014, 05:45 am
Hi Farquad. What do you mean? There is only a single piece of cable going from each terminal
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: srb on 5 Aug 2014, 05:46 am
I might be wrong but are the speaker terminals installed wrong?
In the picture,  it looks like there are double white and double red insulation on the inside of the case.
Usually the terminals have one insulation piece which goes on the inside of case and one on the outside. If not installed correctly one connection might be to close to the case.

That's what I was wondering when I posted

I would also check that your speaker output binding post insulators are correctly installed and working so that there is no short to ground through the chassis.

I dont have a DMM.

Not everyone can afford a nice Fluke meter, but with all due respect I can't really imagine attempting even a basic modular DIY build without some sort of meter to test for voltages and continuity/shorts which can be readily measured with a very basic $10 - $20 multimeter.

Steve
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 5 Aug 2014, 11:11 am
Hi Steve

its not money, its that I wouldn know what to do with it. I started this project thinking it would all be plug and play like a pc build!

What is the loudspeaker connection issue and how do I resolve it?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 5 Aug 2014, 02:15 pm
Hi Steve

its not money, its that I wouldn know what to do with it. I started this project thinking it would all be plug and play like a pc build!

What is the loudspeaker connection issue and how do I resolve it?
The only way you will learn what to do with it is if you own it and come to a place like this.  It's really easy and should be one of those items that everyone has in their toolbox.  Assembling the NC400's are about as easy as a PC.  Some basic knowledge and common sense is all that's required. 


The most important part of common sense being to make sure the unit is unplugged before sticking your fingers near anything.  Other than that, we can help you with the rest if you're willing to read and learn. 
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: farquad on 5 Aug 2014, 04:05 pm
Hi Farquad. What do you mean? There is only a single piece of cable going from each terminal

The speaker terminals, not the cable, has one pair of round isolation each made of hard plastic.
One part of the pair is going on the inside of the case and the other on the outside. They are supposed to touch eachother through the whole  you have drilled and isolate the terminals metal piece from the case. Most speaker terminals work like this. The metal of the terminal should absolutely not touch the case. It would be really bad for the amplifier.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: farquad on 5 Aug 2014, 04:43 pm
That's what I was wondering when I posted

Not everyone can afford a nice Fluke meter, but with all due respect I can't really imagine attempting even a basic modular DIY build without some sort of meter to test for voltages and continuity/shorts which can be readily be measured with a very basic $10 - $20 multimeter.

Steve

Exactly as Steve says. A multimeter is a must have.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 5 Aug 2014, 05:53 pm
its not money, its that I wouldn know what to do with it.

The problem is that the nc400 is meant for DIY people - and that assumes a basic understanding of electronics and the standard tools of the trade (solder iron, multimeter etc,).

Quote
I started this project thinking it would all be plug and play like a pc build!

And it is - on the Hypex end of things. If you get and use solder connectors, they will have to be soldered. Everything on the Hypex modules is plug and play.

Quote
What is the loudspeaker connection issue and how do I resolve it?

Have a look at figure 2 on page 13 of the nc400 data sheet (http://"http://www.hypex.nl/component/weblinks/weblink/24-datasheets/28-nc400-datasheet.html"), and make sure your wiring is the same. Then make sure that nAMPON is connected to ground (the shielding of the shielded cable), and that the speaker outputs are isolated from your enclosure.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Speedskater on 5 Aug 2014, 08:46 pm
To much cutting and pasting try:

NC400 datasheet

http://www.hypex.nl/component/weblinks/weblink/24-datasheets/28-nc400-datasheet.html
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 19 Aug 2014, 05:44 am
We have sound! It sounds so good I could cry.

My setup is with the Benchmark HGC2 DAC, and Anthony Gallo Strada 2 Speakers plus sub.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 19 Aug 2014, 06:12 am
We have sound!

Great!
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 19 Aug 2014, 11:10 am
We have sound! It sounds so good I could cry.

My setup is with the Benchmark HGC2 DAC, and Anthony Gallo Strada 2 Speakers plus sub.
Excellent!  Lets see some pics of the finished amps.   :thumb:
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 30 Sep 2014, 06:33 am
Hi guys. So I remain a bit confused, despite having a working amplifier. Can you help?

I see people attaching either or both the IEC inlet and the XLR connection to the chassis. Why is this?

I also see people connecting the screw in the very corner of the power supply to the chassis, why is this?

What is the purpose of the inlet next to pin 1 on the XLR?

I want class 2, and I figure a lot of this relates to non-class 2 set ups but I want to make sure I am doing it right.

Thanks

Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 30 Sep 2014, 06:51 am
I see people attaching either or both the IEC inlet and the XLR connection to the chassis. Why is this?

IEC inlet to chassis is safety earth - absolutely needed unless you are sure your installation conforms to Class II requirements, and a good idea even then (for safety reasons). XLR connector to chassis it to ground both the chassis and the cable shield to signal ground.

Quote
I also see people connecting the screw in the very corner of the power supply to the chassis, why is this?

Grounding/earthing the power supply to the same signal ground as the chassis.

Quote
What is the purpose of the inlet next to pin 1 on the XLR?

Not sure which inlet that would be. Pin 1 should be connected to chassis using the shortest possible lead, and often the chassis of the XLR connector has a connection pin too - that should also be connected to pin 1.

Quote
I want class 2

Why? And do you know what that requires?

Don't take it the wrong way, but if you are asking questions like this, you might not be familiar enough with ground/earth practices, isolation distances etc. to make sure your installation fulfills all  class 2 requirements - with, in worst case, lethal effects.
 
Class 2 is all about electrical safety, not sound quality.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Speedskater on 30 Sep 2014, 12:27 pm
'Juff's' post is exactly correct!
But we should not:
IEC inlet to chassis is safety earth - absolutely needed unless you are sure your installation conforms to Class II requirements, and a good idea even then (for safety reasons).
An installation is not Class II unless a safety agency certifies that it is!
Many finished Class II components should not be modified to connect their chassis to Safety Ground/Protective Earth.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 30 Sep 2014, 12:52 pm
An installation is not Class II unless a safety agency certifies that it is!

Absolutely - and I don't think any of us bother to get any sort of formal approval. It still makes sense to try to follow the safety guidelines, and grounding the chassis is usually a good precaution, unless you really, really know what you are doing.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 1 Oct 2014, 06:52 am
To be clear, I have attached to this message the wiring I have done.  I have omitted the speaker cable as that is simple, but other than that there is NO OTHER wiring anywhere.

If I am not opting for class 2, what should I do to make safe?

Second photo is of XLR connector. You can clearly see the 3 pins. But what is that inlet and do you do anything with it in the bottom right corner?

Thanks!

http://postimg.org/image/mawxgyzsb/

http://postimg.org/image/lizv3a0wl/
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 1 Oct 2014, 09:26 am
To be clear, I have attached to this message the wiring I have done.  I have omitted the speaker cable as that is simple, but other than that there is NO OTHER wiring anywhere.

So you are connecting mains earth only to nAMPON? Yikes!

Quote
If I am not opting for class 2, what should I do to make safe?

Follow figure 2 in the paragraph 12.3.1, "Vastly preferred setup: XLR input" on page 12 of the NC400 data sheet, but connect the mains earth (the 3rd pin of the IEC connector) to the chassis.

Quote
Second photo is of XLR connector. You can clearly see the 3 pins. But what is that inlet and do you do anything with it in the bottom right corner?

It is the connector chassis. If the connector chassis is metal, and already touches your metal enclosure, you don't need to do anything with it, otherwise you want to connect it to signal ground or the chassis with a (short) lead.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 1 Oct 2014, 09:47 am
What is wrong with connecting Nampon to mains earth? Where should it go?

That paragraph you mention suggests that pin goes to chassis and shield of the input cable to chassis? Why?

Why should I connect the XLR inlet to the chassis as well?

This is what I don't understand no one gives a reason for anything and it profoundly confuses me!
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 1 Oct 2014, 10:12 am
What is wrong with connecting Nampon to mains earth? Where should it go?

Your power supply ground. Mains earth might not have any real relation to that, and in worst case might have transients (from electric motors, dimmers, fans etc) that fries your nAMPON input.
 
Quote
That paragraph you mention suggests that pin goes to chassis and shield of the input cable to chassis? Why?

Bot chassis and input cable sheath go to signal ground to shield the signals from external noise and to conduct any ground/earth currents. Mains earth is connected to chassis so that if you have a short circuit somewhere, you blow a fuse instead of making the chassis carry a high voltage that might kill you.

Quote
Why should I connect the XLR inlet to the chassis as well?

Because it is a protective enclosure (from an EMF point of view) for the signals, just like your amp enclosure and the cable sheath.

Quote
This is what I don't understand no one gives a reason for anything and it profoundly confuses me!

I am sure we are all more than happy to answer questions and explain. The Hypex datasheets understandably explain the specifics of the modules, but assume general knowledge of electrical circuits, grounding practices and induced noise.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 1 Oct 2014, 10:14 am
Julf

I know its a big ask, but can you do a diagram like I did both

1. a class 2 set up (ignoring all the insulation and other safety requirements - just the wiring)

2. and a traditional wiring?

I just find it very hard to follow the words as we all use slightly different ones for the same thing, etc
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 1 Oct 2014, 10:39 am
Julf

I know its a big ask, but can you do a diagram like I did both

1. a class 2 set up (ignoring all the insulation and other safety requirements - just the wiring)

Sure, but there really is no need, as Hypex has done it for you. It is figure 2 in the paragraph 12.3.1, "Vastly preferred setup: XLR input" on page 12 of the NC400 data sheet:

(http://i.imgur.com/Xe2oSdB.png)

(I hope Hypex doesn't mind the snapshot from their manual)

Quote
2. and a traditional wiring?

The only difference is a connection from mains earth (the 3rd pin of the IEC connector) to the chassis.

Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 1 Oct 2014, 10:43 am
Thanks Julf.

Where is Nampon in that diagram?

So the difference between that and mine is that their audio input shield goes onto the case, whereas mine is going into pin 1. And I have not made pin 1 go to chassis.

The inlet thing I mentioned above is not on their diagram?

What is the purpose of pin 1 to chassis?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 1 Oct 2014, 11:05 am
Where is Nampon in that diagram?

Connect it to the shield of the input wire.

Quote
So the difference between that and mine is that their audio input shield goes onto the case, whereas mine is going into pin 1. And I have not made pin 1 go to chassis.

Right. Just like you want the shield of the input cable connected to signal ground, you also want the chassis connected to signal ground.

Quote
The inlet thing I mentioned above is not on their diagram?

No. Because some connectors have it, some not. It should connect to the chassis and (either via the chassis or directly) to signal ground.

Quote
What is the purpose of pin 1 to chassis?

To shield the signals from external noise and to conduct any ground/earth currents.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 3 Oct 2014, 06:57 am
OK, thanks Julf. I think I am slowly understanding now.

My plan is therefore to:

1. Solder together Nampon, Audio Input, and Sheild together, and then thread that wire through the xlr connector chasis and then solder to pin 1.

That way, nampon, audio input, sheild and connector chassis in xlr are connected to pin 1.

My xlr connector is metal, the neutrik one from the hypex website, so I dont need to connect it to chassis, right?

And then I am done.

I then have the option for traditional wiring or to meet class 2.

I am using the silicon ray case, so the air of at least 6mm inside the case works from that pespective. What else is needed for class - heat shrink mains cables, etc?

Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 3 Oct 2014, 07:45 am
1. Solder together Nampon, Audio Input, and Sheild together, and then thread that wire through the xlr connector chasis and then solder to pin 1.

That way, nampon, audio input, sheild and connector chassis in xlr are connected to pin 1.

I assume you meant "audio input shield" and not soldering the audio input to ground :)

Quote
My xlr connector is metal, the neutrik one from the hypex website, so I dont need to connect it to chassis, right?

I would still make the connection, just in case - even if the connector-to-chassis connection is made through the metal chassis of the connector to the chassis, different metals and different surface treatments sometimes make the connection less than perfect.


Quote
I then have the option for traditional wiring or to meet class 2.

I am using the silicon ray case, so the air of at least 6mm inside the case works from that pespective. What else is needed for class - heat shrink mains cables, etc?

I am not sure I am comfortable giving instructions for achieving class 2 electrical safety on a public website. Too many ambulance chaser lawyers out there. Is there a reason you don't want to use safety ground?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 3 Oct 2014, 08:28 am
I wanted class to, in order to:

1. Keep wiring simple; and
2. Better audio performance

And yes, sorry I mean audio input shield! :)

if I do connect XLR to chassis as well, how do you physically do this, what do you recommend one uses? (ditto for connecting IEC to chassis)

In terms of class 2, surely there are some online resources somewhere? I just haven't been able to find them on google.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 3 Oct 2014, 09:01 am
I wanted class to, in order to:

1. Keep wiring simple; and
2. Better audio performance

One more wire, from the IEC connector earth to the chassis, doesn't add much complexity. What makes you think it would affect audio performance, and in what way?

Quote
if I do connect XLR to chassis as well, how do you physically do this, what do you recommend one uses? (ditto for connecting IEC to chassis)

Just normal connector wire, kept as short as possible. I usually recommend one ground point, so preferably one solder ear attached by a screw to the chassis somewhere as close to the input XLR connector as possible, and then run the input cable shield and a short wire from the XLR pin 1 and the XLR connector chassis lug to that point too.

Quote
In terms of class 2, surely there are some online resources somewhere? I just haven't been able to find them on google.

Unfortunately the guides I have come across are all for-pay, and not available for free, but here (http://"http://www.excelsys.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/ApplicationNoteAN1102-ClassIvsClassII.pdf") is some useful information. When googling, use "class II" (not 2) and "double insulation".
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 3 Oct 2014, 11:39 am
I just thought class 2 is best and I am trying to do what I am told as I don't understand any of it. If not, I am happy to do IEC to chassis. But what is a solder ear? I googled it and didn't come up with anything. What, also, is normal connecter wire?

So in other words you connect everything to that solder ear, and then, effectively the solder ear back to pin 1? Is there a photo anywhere? Thanks
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 3 Oct 2014, 12:15 pm
I just thought class 2 is best and I am trying to do what I am told as I don't understand any of it.

Class II (not 2) is only related to electrical safety.

Quote
If not, I am happy to do IEC to chassis. But what is a solder ear? I googled it and didn't come up with anything. What, also, is normal connecter wire?

So in other words you connect everything to that solder ear, and then, effectively the solder ear back to pin 1? Is there a photo anywhere? Thanks

I guess they are officially called "solder lugs". So just a way to connect a lead to a screw on the chassis.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/Solder_lug_terminals.jpg/678px-Solder_lug_terminals.jpg)

Still suggest you follow the picture in the Hypex data sheet, but just add the connection from the IEC ground pin to the chassis.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 3 Oct 2014, 02:12 pm
So I assume I need to drill a new hole in the chassis. Only as I don't have a drill at the moment.

Understood about your point on class 2, but if that is the case, I simply do not understand why Hypex recommend it.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Speedskater on 3 Oct 2014, 02:19 pm
The wire from XLR pin1 to the chassis should not be much longer than 1cm or 1/2 inch.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 3 Oct 2014, 07:17 pm
So I assume I need to drill a new hole in the chassis. Only as I don't have a drill at the moment.

Can you use any of the existing chassis screws?

Quote
Understood about your point on class 2, but if that is the case, I simply do not understand why Hypex recommend it.

Where does Hypex actually recommend it?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 3 Oct 2014, 07:17 pm
The wire from XLR pin1 to the chassis should not be much longer than 1cm or 1/2 inch.

Yes, as short as possible.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Old_School on 3 Oct 2014, 10:48 pm
In my build I connected the NAMPON and mains earth at the place where the conductive standoff is on the power supply. I connected the XLR earths at the screw that fixes the XLR. No hum or anything that would indicate a performance reduction to me. I have the added security blanket of a mains earth to the chassis as well.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Speedskater on 4 Oct 2014, 12:16 pm
I also use the XLR mounting screen for the pin1 connection. Using a very small 'O' ring crimp on connector.  Making sure that the chassis is free of paint or anodizing under the screw head.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 6 Oct 2014, 05:50 am
Is there a close up photo anywhere of the XLR wiring anyone knows of? Still hard to understand exactly the way to wire it. THanks
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 6 Oct 2014, 06:20 am
Is there a close up photo anywhere of the XLR wiring anyone knows of? Still hard to understand exactly the way to wire it. THanks

It is actually harder to see from photos than from the very clear diagram Hypex provided:

(http://i.imgur.com/Xe2oSdB.png)

The only modifications to that diagram would be:
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 6 Oct 2014, 06:27 am
So shall I solder nampon and sheild together as a wire then wire that straight to chassis? Its exactly how and where I join

1. nampon
2. audio sheild
3.xlr pin 1

together that is confusing me.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 6 Oct 2014, 07:28 am
So shall I solder nampon and sheild together as a wire then wire that straight to chassis? Its exactly how and where I join

1. nampon
2. audio sheild
3.xlr pin 1

together that is confusing me.

Where you connect nampon to signal ground doesn't really matter - usually it is best to keep wires as short as possible. If you are not using nampon to put the amps in standby, i suggest you  connect nampon to ground either at the same point where you connect the shield to chassis, or at the XLR connector. Audio shield goes to your chassis ground point, preferably as close to the XLR connector as possible - if you are sure you have a good connection between the XLR connector chassis and your main chassis, the XLR chassis connection pin might be good for this.  XLR pin 1 goes to the chassis ground point (either solder lug attached to chassis, or the XLR connector chassis) with a short lead.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 7 Oct 2014, 09:42 am
OK, thanks. I will upload a diagram of EXACTLY what I will wire shortly.

As a side note, out of interest I asked Hypex about the power consumption figures and they responded:

1. NC400 powered but in standby: 9,5 W
 2. NC400 powered and running: 13 W
 3. If mains is switched off : 0 W
 4. SMPS in standby: <0,5 W

I asked what standby was and they replied that those figures are if you are using the standby pin. Any idea what that is?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 7 Oct 2014, 10:01 am
I asked what standby was and they replied that those figures are if you are using the standby pin. Any idea what that is?

For the nc400, it is with nAMPON active. For the smps600 there is a separate standby input.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 7 Oct 2014, 10:02 am
How do you turn nampon on and off?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 7 Oct 2014, 10:05 am
1. NC400 powered but in standby: 9,5 W

What the data sheet says is "If your power supply includes a gate drive supply, as the SMPS600 does, idle dissipation is around 4.5 W. When no drive supply is available, another 5W are being dissipatd by the on-board regulator.". So the 9.5W is with a non-Hypex power supply.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 7 Oct 2014, 10:06 am
How do you turn nampon on and off?

Disconnect it from ground to turn amp off, connect it back to turn amp on.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 7 Oct 2014, 10:07 am
so you put a switch in the nampon line?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 7 Oct 2014, 10:21 am
so you put a switch in the nampon line?

Yes. But even better would be to use the power supply standby mode.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 7 Oct 2014, 10:29 am
How do you do that?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 7 Oct 2014, 10:39 am
How do you do that?

Sorry, don't take this the wrong way, but I do have to ask if you have read the Hypex data sheets?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 7 Oct 2014, 10:43 am
How do you do that?

The data sheet for the smps600 states "Applying an external DC voltage to this input [J1:1] will put the SMPS in standby. Both main and auxiliary output voltages will drop gradually. Removing the standby voltage will result in a normal soft started start-up of the SMPS600." The DC voltage is specified as 3.3 - 12 V.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 7 Oct 2014, 10:45 am
Hi Julf

But to me, that doesn't explain anything as I know nothing and would have no idea how to "apply an external DC voltage"
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 7 Oct 2014, 11:01 am
But to me, that doesn't explain anything as I know nothing and would have no idea how to "apply an external DC voltage"

Ah, OK. I guess there is an assumption of a certain level of knowledge for DIY electronics, but I am sure we can help you.

How were you planning to switch on/off your amps?

The issue with the power supply standby is that when it is in standby mode, there are no voltages available from the Hypex power supply. Thus the voltage to turn the power supply into standby has to come from somewhere else. I am using a separate, small and cheap linear 6 V power supply (the required power/current is minimal - you could even use a battery).
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 7 Oct 2014, 11:06 am
In terms of class 2, surely there are some online resources somewhere? I just haven't been able to find them on google.

Forgot that Hypex actually has a pretty good application note (http://"http://www.hypex.nl/docs/appnotes/earth_appnote.pdf").
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: clpetersen on 7 Oct 2014, 04:47 pm
Ah, OK. I guess there is an assumption of a certain level of knowledge for DIY electronics, but I am sure we can help you.

How were you planning to switch on/off your amps?

The issue with the power supply standby is that when it is in standby mode, there are no voltages available from the Hypex power supply. Thus the voltage to turn the power supply into standby has to come from somewhere else. I am using a separate, small and cheap linear 6 V power supply (the required power/current is minimal - you could even use a battery).

Contemplating a build: so far dual SMPS600's and dual NC400's. Considering also a single SMPS1200/400.

1) any comments on SMPS 1200 vs SMPS600's? Other than the cost difference, which is substantial.

2) do people here put the amp in standby or the power supply? Power supply seems preferable. From the SMPS600 data sheet, Pin 1 of J1 needs to be energized to be in standby mode -- as mentioned above, an separate supply could be used for this. This auxiliary supply in turn could be turned on using a std. 12V trigger output from a pre-amp (say) and a simple NO relay (Normally Open relay) to connect the mains to the small supply.  Anyone done this?

3) Anyone use the (unregulated) voltage outputs of J1 on the PS to power on indicator LED's?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 7 Oct 2014, 06:19 pm
Contemplating a build: so far dual SMPS600's and dual NC400's. Considering also a single SMPS1200/400.

1) any comments on SMPS 1200 vs SMPS600's? Other than the cost difference, which is substantial.

Unless you have absurdly power-hungry speakers, one shared SMPS600 should do fine for two nc400's.

Quote
2) do people here put the amp in standby or the power supply? Power supply seems preferable. From the SMPS600 data sheet, Pin 1 of J1 needs to be energized to be in standby mode -- as mentioned above, an separate supply could be used for this. This auxiliary supply in turn could be turned on using a std. 12V trigger output from a pre-amp (say) and a simple NO relay (Normally Open relay) to connect the mains to the small supply.  Anyone done this?

Sort of. I have a small and cheap 3W 6 V supply that is switched on by a relay from my music player - not using 12V trigger, but output port of a raspberry pi, but same idea.

Quote
3) Anyone use the (unregulated) voltage outputs of J1 on the PS to power on indicator LED's?

I used the aux standby power supply for LEDs.
 
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: clpetersen on 7 Oct 2014, 06:51 pm
Unless you have absurdly power-hungry speakers, one shared SMPS600 should do fine for two nc400's.
Excellent, thx. You should get a consulting fee.

Sort of. I have a small and cheap 3W 6 V supply that is switched on by a relay from my music player - not using 12V trigger, but output port of a raspberry pi, but same idea.

I used the aux standby power supply for LEDs.

LEDs: Isn't the aux supply off when the PS is active (out of standby mode)?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 7 Oct 2014, 06:57 pm
Excellent, thx. You should get a consulting fee.

That would make me a consultant. Can't live with that label. :)

Quote
LEDs: Isn't the aux supply off when the PS is active (out of standby mode)?

By aux supply I meant the small extra PS that drives the standby input.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 8 Oct 2014, 04:18 am
I wonder if my Benchmark HGC Dac2 can do this using its 12v line Julf?

"Benchmark re-invents the 12 volt trigger. The trigger connection on the DAC2 HGC can be used as an input or output or both, and is compatible with any common 12 volt trigger input or output. The trigger can be used to turn a power amplifier on or off automatically. The DAC2 will also respond to a 12 volt trigger and follow the actions of another audio component."
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 8 Oct 2014, 06:10 am
I wonder if my Benchmark HGC Dac2 can do this using its 12v line Julf?

Electrically yes (I might use a resistor divider to bring down the voltage a bit just in case it happens to be a bit above 12V), but I am not sure if the Benchmark trigger output  can be made to go "negative logic", producing 12V when the amp is supposed to be off (instead of on). You might need a small 12V relay switching a small extra power supply.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 12 Oct 2014, 07:26 am
OK I am working on this today.

Just some additional questions on the XLR part. I am going to solder together nampon and audio shield, and these are both going into pin 1. Then I am going to wire pin 1 to chassis (not relying on xlr chassis connection, I will just do direct.

Can someone explain how solder ear/lugs work please? I cannot find a youtube video on how this is done. Thanks
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 12 Oct 2014, 07:29 am
Can someone also explain to me what that yellow cable is doing in this build?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106742)
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 12 Oct 2014, 07:47 am
Another question! Is there anything wrong in terms of sound in using an IEC that has a built in switch on it?

Thanks
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 12 Oct 2014, 07:52 am
Just some additional questions on the XLR part. I am going to solder together nampon and audio shield, and these are both going into pin 1. Then I am going to wire pin 1 to chassis (not relying on xlr chassis connection, I will just do direct.

Sounds OK.

Quote
Can someone explain how solder ear/lugs work please? I cannot find a youtube video on how this is done. Thanks

Congratulations for finding perhaps the only thing in the world that doesn't have a youtube video for it :)

A solder lug is a very simple thing - it has one end with a bigger hole for a screw - either a dedicated screw or an existing mounting screw that attaches to the chassis (so the lug acts as a washer), and an "ear", usually with a smaller hole, that you can solder a lead to. All a solder lug does is provides for an easy way to connect a lead to a screw or bolt.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 12 Oct 2014, 07:56 am
Can someone also explain to me what that yellow cable is doing in this build?

Connecting mains safety earth to the chassis (using the unisolated mounting lug of the smps as a connecting point).
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 12 Oct 2014, 07:58 am
Another question! Is there anything wrong in terms of sound in using an IEC that has a built in switch on it?

Absolutely nothing wrong with a switch - but don't use an IEC connector with a mains HF noise filter.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 12 Oct 2014, 08:07 am
OK good, making progress! That sounds like a great solution to use that uninsuated screw. I have the same on my siliconray case so I will do that rather than use a solder ear. Which in turns makes me consider that perhaps I will do the XLR bit while relying on the chassis connection pin, so I wouldn't have to go to the chassis with an ear on that either, would I? I assume I'd know if that chassis connection is a good connection because if it wasnt, because Nampon is connected to it then the amp wouldnt produce a sound?

When you said normal wire what is that? I need to buy some of it for this IEC earthing to the SMPS. Can you send me a link?

FINALLY so sorry for being so badly spoon fed here!!!!!!!!! I am so grateful for your time
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 12 Oct 2014, 08:48 am
I'm thinking of getting this for my XLR. This will definitely conduct to the chassis, right?

Its a crimp design too as I am trying to go solderless as there is a chance I will replace this case in a year.

http://www.neutrik.co.uk/en-uk/xlr/dlx-crimp-series/nc3fd-lx-ha-bag

http://www.neutrik.co.uk/en-uk/xlr/dlx-crimp-series/nc3fd-lx-ha

Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 12 Oct 2014, 10:06 am
I assume I'd know if that chassis connection is a good connection because if it wasnt, because Nampon is connected to it then the amp wouldnt produce a sound?

That is a somewhat dangerous assumption. nAMPON is very easy to drive, with a small DC current - thus the resistance and inductance between nAMPON and ground can be pretty high, and it would still work. AC ground noise, especially high frequency noise, is another matter.

Yes, you can use the smps mounting post as the main ground point, but in that case, I would still ensure the XLR connector is well grounded to the chassis, and I would ground pin 1 and the audio input cable sheath to the chassis as close to the XLR as possible. How is your XLR mounted? Using screws? Can you maybe use one of the mounting screws as a chassis contact point?

Quote
When you said normal wire what is that? I need to buy some of it for this IEC earthing to the SMPS. Can you send me a link?

Any normal electrical wire will do.

Quote
FINALLY so sorry for being so badly spoon fed here!!!!!!!!! I am so grateful for your time

No prob - glad to be able to help!
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 12 Oct 2014, 10:09 am
I'm thinking of getting this for my XLR. This will definitely conduct to the chassis, right?

Depends on your chassis. If it is anodized the contact might not be too good, but that is easy to measure with a multimeter.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 12 Oct 2014, 02:12 pm
Depends on your chassis. If it is anodized the contact might not be too good, but that is easy to measure with a multimeter.

So what can I do just file the area a bit to ensure proper transmission?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 12 Oct 2014, 02:13 pm
That is a somewhat dangerous assumption. nAMPON is very easy to drive, with a small DC current - thus the resistance and inductance between nAMPON and ground can be pretty high, and it would still work. AC ground noise, especially high frequency noise, is another matter.

Yes, you can use the smps mounting post as the main ground point, but in that case, I would still ensure the XLR connector is well grounded to the chassis, and I would ground pin 1 and the audio input cable sheath to the chassis as close to the XLR as possible. How is your XLR mounted? Using screws? Can you maybe use one of the mounting screws as a chassis contact point?

Any normal electrical wire will do.

No prob - glad to be able to help!

Good idea! Thats what I will do, I use one of the screw mounts. Again would a file the area a bit to ensure transmission?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 12 Oct 2014, 02:18 pm
My siliconray has a pre-drilled slot for an IEC connector of the small, standard size. What is the recommended way to cut the larger required hole for an IEC with a built in switch? I can't see it being easy!!!
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 12 Oct 2014, 02:35 pm
So what can I do just file the area a bit to ensure proper transmission?

Probably good idea - and measure resistance once you have installed the connector.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 12 Oct 2014, 02:36 pm
My siliconray has a pre-drilled slot for an IEC connector of the small, standard size. What is the recommended way to cut the larger required hole for an IEC with a built in switch? I can't see it being easy!!!

A special hole punch is the best way, but lacking that, a small saw blade and a lot of hard work with a file...
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: clpetersen on 14 Oct 2014, 06:10 pm
Probably good idea - and measure resistance once you have installed the connector.

Agreed. You can also buy piercing-style washers made for this purpose, although mainly for painted chassis. Use that and a small amount of conductive grease. You can get both from Amazon, or Parts Express. The conductive grease is also good on speakers terminals. As pointed out in the white paper by the chief engineer at McIntosh, one of the (hypothesized) improvements in sound quality from cable 'upgrades' was simply removing corrosion from the contacts, which can have a measurable rectification (e.g. diode) effect. Rare, but the grease will last a lifetime. Marinas usually carry it for salt water applications as well.  Do not use 'dielectric' grease for automotive applications - it is by design highly insulating.

But, double check with a multimeter. Measure earth ground points to the grounding terminal on your (attached to the power inlet) cable.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 18 Oct 2014, 05:34 am
Thanks all. In terms of internal wire, I was going to order something from here as I am doing a general order with them. Any recommendations on (roughly) what I should go for?

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/wire.html
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 18 Oct 2014, 08:55 am
Thanks all. In terms of internal wire, I was going to order something from here as I am doing a general order with them. Any recommendations on (roughly) what I should go for?

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/wire.html

As I said before, just us normal connector wire, kept as short as possible. You don't need any supposedly fancy "hifi" wire - copper is copper. Pretty much all cables are made in a few, big cable plants in China, what you pay for in the expensive "audiophile" wires is packaging, labeling and marketing. Get proper 2.5mm or heavier grade mains wiring cable from your local hardware store.

Much more important than the brand of the cable is the twisting, especially of the loudspeaker wires. Make sure you follow the directions on twisting and avoiding loops diligently.
 
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 18 Oct 2014, 09:30 am
Cool. I subscribe to the same view. Thats why I use Van Damme speaker cables.

With the internal speaker wire, does that you want some with very little insulation so they twist better? Van Damme go from 0.75mm to 6mm!
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 18 Oct 2014, 10:33 am
Cool. I subscribe to the same view. Thats why I use Van Damme speaker cables.

Yes, that is what I use from my nc400's to my speakers too - Black Series Tour Grade  4 x 4mm.

Quote
With the internal speaker wire, does that you want some with very little insulation so they twist better? Van Damme go from 0.75mm to 6mm!

6 mm is probably too thick to twist neatly. I use 4mm, but for the short run inside the amp enclosure, pretty much any cable with enough current capability will be fine.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 18 Oct 2014, 12:30 pm
Yes, that is what I use from my nc400's to my speakers too - Black Series Tour Grade  4 x 4mm.
I've never heard of this stuff.  Is it the equivalent to Mogami or Belden?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 18 Oct 2014, 12:44 pm
its a popular cable used in recording studios, Abbey Road, for one.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 18 Oct 2014, 12:45 pm
its a popular cable used in recording studios, Abbey Road, for one.
Yeah, I saw that.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 18 Oct 2014, 12:53 pm
I use the 6mm and it bends beautifully. Just has a weight and lays lovely. The difference between blue and black range is that the latter is more rigid. Its very well made.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 18 Oct 2014, 01:03 pm
I've never heard of this stuff.  Is it the equivalent to Mogami or Belden?

My main reason to pick Van Damme was that they do multi-conductor ones (as I am using an active speaker setup, I need 4 separate channels per speaker).
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 18 Oct 2014, 01:05 pm
I use the 6mm and it bends beautifully.

Great! The thing to watch out for is making sure you keep the two wires close to each other by the output connectors on the nc400 - it is all too easy to form a loop antenna.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 18 Oct 2014, 01:14 pm
When I said 6mm I meant for my external cables not internal!! That would never work! :)
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: clpetersen on 18 Oct 2014, 03:18 pm


Much more important than the brand of the cable is the twisting, especially of the loudspeaker wires. Make sure you follow the directions on twisting and avoiding loops diligently.

Hello Julf - you are referring to the wires between the NC400's speaker outputs and the XLR connectors on the chassis/enclosure, correct?
Do people typically mount the NC400's as close as possible to the XLR bulkhead connectors for this reason?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 18 Oct 2014, 03:25 pm
Hello Julf - you are referring to the wires between the NC400's speaker outputs and the XLR connectors on the chassis/enclosure, correct?
Do people typically mount the NC400's as close as possible to the XLR bulkhead connectors for this reason?
He's referring from the NC400 module to the binding posts. 


It's a fine balance of mounting the NC400 close to the connectors but also being able to route the wires in such a way that there is no crosstalk with the other wires (power) for example. 
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 18 Oct 2014, 03:40 pm
He's referring from the NC400 module to the binding posts. 

Exactly.

Quote
It's a fine balance of mounting the NC400 close to the connectors but also being able to route the wires in such a way that there is no crosstalk with the other wires (power) for example.

But even more important is to route the wires so that there are no significant untwisted loops. The trickiest point is at the nc400 module output connectors, where it is all too easy to place the wires so that they start out going in opposite directions, forming a loop in a very critical area.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: clpetersen on 18 Oct 2014, 04:01 pm
Thanks for the pointers. Yes, I meant the speaker binding posts, not the XLR.

Is this an external noise pick-up concern into the loop or a cross-talk concern - i.e the loop influencing the system?. I could see a loop with a high current causing a noise (magnetic field induced) issue elsewhere. But will be careful, nonetheless.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 18 Oct 2014, 04:53 pm
Thanks for the pointers. Yes, I meant the speaker binding posts, not the XLR.

Is this an external noise pick-up concern into the loop or a cross-talk concern - i.e the loop influencing the system?. I could see a loop with a high current causing a noise (magnetic field induced) issue elsewhere. But will be careful, nonetheless.

Noise pickup - the nCore has a feedback loop from output (post-filter) to input, so any noise injected at output will end up back in the input.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: dpd on 18 Oct 2014, 04:54 pm
Here's what I did to wire the speaker outputs from the nCore 400.  I just braided some wires.  Length about 2"


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=107154)


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=107155)

Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 18 Oct 2014, 05:19 pm
Here's what I did to wire the speaker outputs from the nCore 400.  I just braided some wires.  Length about 2"

You have a bit of what I warned about - too much distance between the wires from the output posts until the braiding kicks in. Ideally the wires should both be starting out heading inwards.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 18 Oct 2014, 05:41 pm
Further, the wires need to come out of the NC400 from the same side of the terminals.  So looking at your picture the black wire on the right needs to be moved to the left.  This is per Bruno.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 19 Oct 2014, 12:18 pm
A quick soldering question - does anyone use flux?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 19 Oct 2014, 01:18 pm
A quick soldering question - does anyone use flux?

I don't apply flux separately, but definitely use flux-filled solder.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 19 Oct 2014, 03:18 pm
Hmm, I used this on my test build. Sounds like it doesnt have flux in it?

http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/audiophile-grade-solder/287-furutech-s-070-silver-solder-1mtr-length.html?search_query=solder&results=95
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 19 Oct 2014, 03:27 pm
Hmm, I used this on my test build. Sounds like it doesnt have flux in it?

http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/audiophile-grade-solder/287-furutech-s-070-silver-solder-1mtr-length.html?search_query=solder&results=95

Audiophile grade solder? Makes your feet tap?

Solder is solder. Would audio be a more demanding application than aerospace?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 19 Oct 2014, 03:29 pm
Julf - you are preaching to the converted :) I just bought that as I was buying other stuff from them for ease (there are no hardware shops within easy driving distance here). I would have expected it to at least have done no harm, but turns out it is now!!!

What is the "standard electrical wire" everyone is speaking of, can someone give me an example? And can you give me an example of a good brand flux filled solder? Just want to make sure I get the right thing.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 19 Oct 2014, 03:46 pm
Kester Solder is all one needs.  Here is a small sample of what the packaging looks like.  I have many spools!  If you feel the need they have Silver Solder which is what all these other companies buy and resell. 


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=107235)
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 19 Oct 2014, 04:02 pm
Brilliant thank you! What about electrical wire?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 19 Oct 2014, 04:04 pm
Whats the deal with Halogen or non-Halogen? And "no clean" "water soluable" and "rosin based"?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 19 Oct 2014, 05:21 pm
there are no hardware shops within easy driving distance here

Can you remind us where you are based - that helps to pick the web shops to link to for stuff like standard wire.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 19 Oct 2014, 05:44 pm
Sorry, Im in the UK!
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 19 Oct 2014, 06:09 pm
Sorry, Im in the UK!

In that case, here (http://uk.farnell.com/mc-multi-contact/60-7033-21-blk-5m/wire-ex-flex-pvc-black-5m/dp/297768) is an example of a typical generic connecting wire.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 19 Oct 2014, 07:24 pm
that link appears to be broken
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: srb on 19 Oct 2014, 07:29 pm
that link appears to be broken

http://uk.farnell.com/mc-multi-contact/60-7033-21-blk-5m/wire-ex-flex-pvc-black-5m/dp/297768
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 19 Oct 2014, 08:14 pm
Thanks. I feel bad wasting so much. All I need is like 20cm!
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 19 Oct 2014, 08:24 pm
Fixed
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 19 Oct 2014, 08:25 pm
Thanks. I feel bad wasting so much. All I need is like 20cm!

Just go to your local hardware store, buy 30 cm of regular 3x2.5mm mains cable, strip the outer rubber - and voila, 3 x 30 cm of nice wire :)
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 20 Oct 2014, 03:06 am
OK cool. So something like this would work?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EARTH-CABLE-GREEN-YELLOW-6491X-PER-METER-ALL-SIZES-1-5M-2-5M-4M-6M-10M-16M/261073487985?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D24933%26meid%3Def9ef9e83b7c4f96be92abadcf1489d9%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D10513%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D331274644545&rt=nc
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 20 Oct 2014, 03:11 am
This is the solder I think I am going to get

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kester-Audiophile-Lead-free-solder-3-7-Silver-0-5mm-0-7mm-1-2mm-/291270696694?pt=UK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&var=&hash=item43d1161ef6
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 20 Oct 2014, 03:27 am
Next question is what is the best way to terminate on these binding posts? Do I just wrap the speaker wire through the hole and then put a blob of solder on?

http://www.vhaudio.com/images/wbt-0703-wbt-0708.jpg
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 20 Oct 2014, 03:49 am
And another question! In deciding on my XLR connectors and cables, Neutrik over both silver and gold. Whats the deal there? Google is so confusing on this point. The only thing that seems to come out is to make sure your metals match? Im not so worried about conductivity but oxidisation.

And on the oxidisation point, if I am after some machine screws for my XLR connection, can you use something like a copper screw or is stainless steel ok for conducting?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 20 Oct 2014, 07:09 am
OK cool. So something like this would work?

Don't see any reason why not.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 20 Oct 2014, 07:12 am
This is the solder I think I am going to get

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kester-Audiophile-Lead-free-solder-3-7-Silver-0-5mm-0-7mm-1-2mm-/291270696694?pt=UK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&var=&hash=item43d1161ef6

Should be good - to be frank, at home I am still using the reel of multicore I got something like 15 years ago.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 20 Oct 2014, 07:20 am
And another question! In deciding on my XLR connectors and cables, Neutrik over both silver and gold. Whats the deal there? Google is so confusing on this point. The only thing that seems to come out is to make sure your metals match? Im not so worried about conductivity but oxidisation.

If you worry about oxidation, silver is a bad choice, as it forms silver sulphite. Copper, nickel or gold is better. If you disconnect and reconnect at least a couple of times a year, and maybe clean teh connectors every 5 years, it doesn't matter what metal you use.

Quote
And on the oxidisation point, if I am after some machine screws for my XLR connection, can you use something like a copper screw or is stainless steel ok for conducting?

Copper is far too soft, so it would be brass or steel, and steel works fine.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 20 Oct 2014, 07:26 am
I will only worry about oxidation if it matters :)

So are you saying it would matter more if you are connecting and disconnecting all the time?

Are there any real world benefits to silver?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 20 Oct 2014, 07:37 am
I will only worry about oxidation if it matters :)

So are you saying it would matter more if you are connecting and disconnecting all the time?

No, sort of the opposite. If you connect and disconnect all the time, you want to go copper or nickel, as any possible corrosion will be scraped off, and a gold layer will be worn off. If you never reconnect, you have a risk of oxidation (but only after years in normal indoor conditions). 

Quote
Are there any real world benefits to silver?

Silver has the lowest resistance when new, but sulphates very quickly spoil that.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 20 Oct 2014, 07:41 am
OK. So it sounds to me I will go gold on the XLR then. My binding posts are copper. I think my IEC inlet might be silver, which was a mistake most likely, but at the same time I am not sure oxidisation would matter there?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 20 Oct 2014, 08:33 am
OK. So it sounds to me I will go gold on the XLR then. My binding posts are copper. I think my IEC inlet might be silver, which was a mistake most likely, but at the same time I am not sure oxidisation would matter there?

You should be OK, but you might want to have a look at the condition of the IEC inlet after 6-12 months of operation.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 20 Oct 2014, 01:58 pm
OK. So it sounds to me I will go gold on the XLR then. My binding posts are copper. I think my IEC inlet might be silver, which was a mistake most likely, but at the same time I am not sure oxidisation would matter there?
You should be OK, but you might want to have a look at the condition of the IEC inlet after 6-12 months of operation.

I use DeoxIT (http://store.caig.com/s.nl/it.A/id.1560/.f?sc=2&category=292) pre and post solder joint.  I can't recommend it highly enough for this reason.  I also use it on every other contact point whether a wall socket or binding posts.  It really does work to protect. 
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: clpetersen on 20 Oct 2014, 02:29 pm
Following this thread. The twisting/braiding appears to be highly important and it seems people are using a far heavier gauge wire than is needed.
It is the total resistance that governs.  R = rho*L/A, where rho is resistivity. The ratio L/A (length area) is the important quantity.

If the attached link works (http://www.calmont.com/pdf/calmont-eng-wire-gauge.pdf), you will see that a 1.2 mm diameter wire (18 gauge) has just 0.002 ohms resistance per 10 cm, or 0.004 ohms for a 10 cm pair (current going out and back from speakers). This is negligible; about 0.1% of the outgoing power is consumed in this example (using a 4 ohm speaker) and it adds no distortion. For a 4 meter speaker run, you would need to use 2 gauge (10 mm diameter) wire for a similar loss. Some may do this, but it is absurd.

Hence, go with a lighter (say 16 gauge, 1.3 mm diameter), highly stranded wire (speaker wire comes to mind) and concentrate on the twisting and wire orientations as recommended by Julf.

As far as solders and connectors, do try to avoid dissimilar metals, but if it can't be avoided use (carefully) a conductive (anti-corrosion) grease. People use it in marine electronics for a reason.
Do NOT use 'dielectric grease' - it is insulating and meant for high voltage applications (like an engine spark plug). Avoid zinc-bearing greases. I use No-Ox, inherited from my Dad, who used on our boats from the 1960's onwards. Cheap enough, and you can pass it on to your kids.  From their web-site:

"Stereo enthusiasts and hobbyists love NO-OX-ID...

How hobbyists and some companies use NO-OXID A-Special, and some Testimonials:
1.NO-OXID A-Special works absolute wonders on audio connections, especially on those pesky RCA connectors that tend to corrode on the inner surfaces of the ground shell, 1/4 phone and even USB connectors
2.Telephones – Telephone companies have been using NO-OX-ID for seventy years.
3.Tinning stranded wires destined for mechanical compression-type connectors defeats the purpose of the mechanical compression. When you insert a set of bare copper wires that are clean and protected with stuff like NO-OX-ID into a speaker thread-type compression connector, the resultant force of the compression on all the strands is what makes a good connection.
4.A quote from a Bell Systems manual on making a connection: "The mating surfaces of the connection shall be burnished to a bright metallic finish and coated with a thin layer of NO-OX-ID anticorrosion paste to preserve continuity indefinitely."
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 20 Oct 2014, 02:34 pm
A quote from a Bell Systems manual on making a connection: "The mating surfaces of the connection shall be burnished to a bright metallic finish and coated with a thin layer of NO-OX-ID anticorrosion paste to preserve continuity indefinitely."

And they did know a think or two about long-term reliability in harsh conditions...
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: clpetersen on 23 Oct 2014, 12:31 pm
FYI, also posted in the components thread:

Ghent Audio (http://www.ghentaudio.com) will be modifying their case (now for ICE modules) to be NC400 and SMPS 600 ready:

I think their case is a little more refined than the SiliconRay equivalent.

"Hi,

We will have new design case-kit, specific for NC400 and SMPS600 soon, about half month later.

I will let you know once finishing production.

Greeting,
Ghent"
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 27 Oct 2014, 08:34 am
Another day in the world's longest Ncore build...

Ive decided to implement a front switch. Has anyone got any recommendations for something elegant?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Rclark on 27 Oct 2014, 08:41 am
Another day in the world's longest Ncore build...

Ive decided to implement a front switch. Has anyone got any recommendations for something elegant?

Thanks!

Front switch? Why would you need a switch? They draw like 4 watts at idle. Finish them, you are missing out.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 27 Oct 2014, 08:59 am
According to Hypex it is actually 13w.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 27 Oct 2014, 09:08 am
Ive decided to implement a front switch. Has anyone got any recommendations for something elegant?

For power or standby?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Rclark on 27 Oct 2014, 09:09 am
 
 is it? Even 13 is a tiny amount. I wouldn't want to be turning them on and off all the time for such. The amps are tiny in the first place, so reaching behind to shut off is no big deal.

I was just struck by your comment about being a long build. Don't add flourishes at the expense of listening time, that's not the point :)
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 27 Oct 2014, 09:12 am
According to Hypex it is actually 13w.

It depends on if you use the hypex power supplies or some other supply that doesn't provide power for the driver stage. If you use the hypex PS, idle power is 5 W lower.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Rclark on 27 Oct 2014, 09:14 am
It depends on if you use the hypex power supplies or some other supply that doesn't provide power for the driver stage. If you use the hypex PS, idle power is 5 W lower.

Ok, I was pretty sure it was about 4 watts.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 27 Oct 2014, 09:33 am
Well, the data sheet specifies 4.5W with a compatible power supply, 9.5W without. That is of course for the nc400, the SMPS dissipates another 5W.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Rclark on 27 Oct 2014, 09:41 am
Well, the data sheet specifies 4.5W with a compatible power supply, 9.5W without. That is of course for the nc400, the SMPS dissipates another 5W.

Ah, well, again, extremely efficient for something that balloons to 500 watts. A marvel. I leave them on  :thumb:
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 27 Oct 2014, 09:42 am
I still think for longevity it must make sense to turn and on off to some degree. I have to turn them off anyway as my benchmark DAC sends a few volts down the line when it shuts off which can be loud when the power amps are on.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 27 Oct 2014, 09:59 am
I still think for longevity it must make sense to turn and on off to some degree. I have to turn them off anyway as my benchmark DAC sends a few volts down the line when it shuts off which can be loud when the power amps are on.

Right - but you have 3 choices. 1) actually witching the power on/off, 2) using the smps standby 3) using nAMPON on the nc400. 3) is easiest, 1) gives a 100% off, 2) is a good compromise but requires an external voltage source.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Rclark on 27 Oct 2014, 10:41 am
I still think for longevity it must make sense to turn and on off to some degree. I have to turn them off anyway as my benchmark DAC sends a few volts down the line when it shuts off which can be loud when the power amps are on.

Longevity?

Tell you what, I will leave mine on forever, and I have a 3 year headstart, and you will shut yours off and on repeatedly, and we will compare notes at first burn out in 20 years or so.

You will have also have saved maybe $200 over those 2 decades by shutting them off.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 27 Oct 2014, 11:25 am
That avoids the DAC point though.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: clpetersen on 27 Oct 2014, 01:27 pm
Another day in the world's longest Ncore build...

Ive decided to implement a front switch. Has anyone got any recommendations for something elegant?

Thanks!
The Ghent case mentioned in the previous post does have an integral front switch. Note that these switches are not rated for mains power (i.e. 240 or 120 volts), but can be used for example to ground the nAMPON pin, turning off the amplifiers. Then you would be left with only the idle power of the power supply, a few watts.

Has anyone used nAMPON? is it 'graceful' or does it induce pops/clicks in the speakers? similarly for the power supply standby?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 27 Oct 2014, 01:29 pm
Has anyone used nAMPON? is it 'graceful' or does it induce pops/clicks in the speakers? similarly for the power supply standby?

The power supply standby is definitely "soft start".
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: forkliftHIFI on 27 Oct 2014, 04:34 pm
FWIW I leave my stereo nc400 on 24/7. No power switch.  I unplug it if i am going out of town for a few days or if there is a particularly bad thunderstorm.  Stays warm to the touch but not hot.  I bet if the silicon ray chassis had some ventilation holes in the bottom panel it would stay a lot cooler. 
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 27 Oct 2014, 04:35 pm
FWIW I leave my stereo nc400 on 24/7. No power switch.  I unplug it if i am going out of town for a few days or if there is a particularly bad thunderstorm.  Stays warm to the touch but not hot.  I bet if the silicon ray chassis had some ventilation holes in the bottom panel it would stay a lot cooler.

Do you use either form of standby?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 27 Oct 2014, 04:39 pm
I think Im going to drill some massive holes in the top of my siliconray for that reason. I am not happy with the thermal performance
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Old_School on 27 Oct 2014, 09:24 pm
I think I'm going to install a switch as I've been getting some transients through the system when the preamp goes through it's startup process. Is switching the nAMPON the most practical solution?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: forkliftHIFI on 28 Oct 2014, 04:16 am
I think Im going to drill some massive holes in the top of my siliconray for that reason. I am not happy with the thermal performance

The holes need to be in the bottom panel on the opposite end of the case from the top holes.  Hot air will rise out the top and fresh air sucked in through the bottom to replace it.  Enlarging the top panel vents won't make much of a difference except maybe expose the boards to more risk of objects falling in there.  I have a fanless mini PC which uses this method of passive cooling and I leave it on 24/7. 
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: forkliftHIFI on 28 Oct 2014, 04:19 am
Do you use either form of standby?

Sorry I don't know.  I hired one of the builders. 
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 28 Oct 2014, 10:39 am
Can someone also point me in the direction of the wiring instructions necessary in order to build a switch in?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 28 Oct 2014, 10:58 am
Can someone also point me in the direction of the wiring instructions necessary in order to build a switch in?

Do you want to completely disconnect the power, or use standby? SMPS standby, or nAMPON?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 28 Oct 2014, 11:01 am
So I will be using a switch similar to this

http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?sku=1637577&CMP=i-bf9f-00001000

I cannot see any reason to go to the effort of a switch other than to completely disconnect as though it was on the IEC inlet itself.

Thanks
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 28 Oct 2014, 12:47 pm
I cannot see any reason to go to the effort of a switch other than to completely disconnect as though it was on the IEC inlet itself.

I have a "proper" power switch on the back side of my amps - pretty much only for thunderstorms. Normally I use the smps standby to go into idle mode.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 28 Oct 2014, 01:28 pm
How is SMPS standby wired?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 28 Oct 2014, 01:46 pm
How is SMPS standby wired?

You need a separate low-power power supply. nAMPON is easier, it only takes a switch.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 28 Oct 2014, 01:54 pm
Ok so it sounds like I want a complete off switch then. Presumably that's just a matter of wiring live and neutral through the switch?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 28 Oct 2014, 02:11 pm
Ok so it sounds like I want a complete off switch then. Presumably that's just a matter of wiring live and neutral through the switch?

Yes.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 28 Oct 2014, 02:12 pm
Easy peasy! In that sense I don't understand why anyone else pursues the other 2 more complicated options?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 1 Nov 2014, 07:04 am
Next problem...I just bought these terminals and only just realised my silicon ray only have round holes in the back! How can I make that little nick required?!

http://www.wbt.de/index.php?eID=tx_nawsecuredl&u=0&file=fileadmin/content/products/polklemmen/datenblatt/WBT-0703_Cu__E.pdf&t=1414914213&hash=0467f4136567e31d714dbc4069ef637f784db682
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 1 Nov 2014, 07:25 am
I would use either a small metal file, or a dremel tool.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 1 Nov 2014, 07:35 am
I am wondering whether I just just return them and use Neutrik Speakon instead. That can be done can't it?

I would have spades at my speaker end then reterminate my amp end of the cable with Speakon and then add speakon terminals to the amp
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 1 Nov 2014, 08:01 am
Coming from more of a pro audio background, I do prefer speakons. I wonder how many amps have burned because of shorts caused by sloppily done screw terminal connections...
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 1 Nov 2014, 08:07 am
Thanks Julf. I like the look of them.

Is there any benefit to using EMC XLR by the way?

http://www.neutrik.com/en/xlr/xlr-cable-connectors/emc-series/
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 1 Nov 2014, 08:52 am
Also, with Speakon, presumably I want 2 pole right?

But its not clear to me how the 3 connection choices work. Anyone got any idea?

http://www.neutrik.co.uk/en-uk/speakon/speakon-chassis-connectors/nl2md-h

http://www.neutrik.co.uk/en-uk/speakon/speakon-chassis-connectors/nl2md-v

http://www.neutrik.co.uk/en-uk/speakon/speakon-chassis-connectors/nl2mp
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 1 Nov 2014, 09:11 am
Is there any benefit to using EMC XLR by the way?

Not unless you are sharing your place with a ham radio operator... :)
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 1 Nov 2014, 09:13 am
Also, with Speakon, presumably I want 2 pole right?

Yes, if you have a standard, single-wired passive speaker. I have an active setup, so I use multipole ones.

Quote
But its not clear to me how the 3 connection choices work. Anyone got any idea?

http://www.neutrik.co.uk/en-uk/speakon/speakon-chassis-connectors/nl2md-h

http://www.neutrik.co.uk/en-uk/speakon/speakon-chassis-connectors/nl2md-v

http://www.neutrik.co.uk/en-uk/speakon/speakon-chassis-connectors/nl2mp

You want the last one, it has normal solder lugs. The first two are for mounting directly to a printed circuit board. You can use them too, but soldering is a bit trickier.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 1 Nov 2014, 11:27 am
Great thanks. So what does it look like from behind? Just two pins basically to connect my internal speaker wire too?

Although now I am confused - is this therefore a single connector per power amp?
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 1 Nov 2014, 11:43 am
Great thanks. So what does it look like from behind? Just two pins basically to connect my internal speaker wire too?

Yes.

Quote
Although now I am confused - is this therefore a single connector per power amp?

Again yes.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 1 Nov 2014, 11:59 am
Even better! Makes for a good design with these units given they want the internal cable spiraled
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 1 Nov 2014, 12:22 pm
Even better! Makes for a good design with these units given they want the internal cable spiraled

Twisted, not spiraled. Small but important difference. :)
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 1 Nov 2014, 12:48 pm
True! :)

I am in disbelief why not everyone is using these Speakeron. Looks great
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Speedskater on 1 Nov 2014, 12:50 pm
Twisted, not spiraled. Small but important difference. :)
What would that difference be?

twisted
twist (twist)
Verb: twist·ed, twist·ing, twists
1. To entwine (two or more threads) so as to produce a single strand.
2. To coil (for example, vines or rope) about something.
3. a. To impart a coiling or spiral shape to.
3. b. To assume a spiral shape.
4. a. To turn or open by turning.
4. b. To break by turning: twist off a dead branch.
5. To wrench or sprain.
6. To distort the intended meaning of.
7. To move in a winding course.
8. To rotate or revolve.

spiraled
spi·ral (spi'rel)
Noun
1. The two-dimensional path formed by a point moving around a fixed center at an increasing or decreasing distance.
2. a. A three-dimensional curve moving about a central axis; helix.
2. b. Something having the form of such a curve.
3. A continuously accelerating increase or decrease.

Adjective
1. Of or resembling a spiral.
2. Coiling in a constantly changing plane; helical.

Verb: spi·raled spi·ralled, spi·ral·ing spi·ral·ling, spi·rals.
1. To take a spiral form or course.
2. To rise or fall with steady acceleration.

Etymology:  Greek speira, coil.
spi'ral·ly
Adverb



Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 1 Nov 2014, 01:15 pm
What would that difference be?

In this specific case, the difference between

Quote
twisted
twist (twist)
Verb: twist·ed, twist·ing, twists
1. To entwine (two or more threads) so as to produce a single strand.

spiraled
spi·ral (spi'rel)
2. a. A three-dimensional curve moving about a central axis; helix.

What you want is two cables tightly twisted together, without any space between them, and with the result pretty much forming a straight line. What you don't want is two separate, individual spirals around a central axis.


Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 1 Nov 2014, 01:16 pm
I am in disbelief why not everyone is using these Speakeron. Looks great

They smell of pro audio, a definite no-no for audiophiles :)

It is like asking why everyone keeps using the horrible, unbalanced RCA plugs instead of balanced connections.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: barrows on 1 Nov 2014, 02:11 pm
Neutrik Speakon connectors rely on the spring force of the contacts to keep the connectiopn tight.  When new I suspect that the spring force will be adequate to make a good connection and keep micro arcing to a minimum.  But after many dis-connect/re-connect cycles the spring force will diminish, and the connection will suffer.
A traditional speaker binding post will always allow a tight connection with a spade connector, and the contacts themselves can be easily cleaned as well-these are real world advantages to the traditional spade and binding post connection.  The newer binding post designs from WBT are really excellent, good materials, easy to to tighten firmly by hand, and your choice of contact plating.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: jtwrace on 1 Nov 2014, 02:16 pm
The only thing that I can say about that is that they (speakOn) are rated for > 5,000 mating cycles. 
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Julf on 1 Nov 2014, 04:01 pm
after many dis-connect/re-connect cycles the spring force will diminish, and the connection will suffer

How often do you unplug and re-plug your speaker cables? Speakons are designed for PA and studio applications, where cables are re-plugged almost daily, and despite that they keep working, year in, year out.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: clpetersen on 7 Nov 2014, 07:02 pm
In this specific case, the difference between

What you want is two cables tightly twisted together, without any space between them, and with the result pretty much forming a straight line. What you don't want is two separate, individual spirals around a central axis.

Yes (twisted). Basically, think of it this way: for a two wire circuit (AC or DC), at any instant, one wire (say the left) is carrying the outward current and other one (say the right wire) is carrying the (equal) return current, excepting the time when capacitors are charging (storing charge/current). Each loop of the twist emits a small magnetic field (think of a single turn of a simple solenoid or transformer). But the neighboring loop is in the opposite sense - the right/left wires become left/right  due to the twist, so the neighboring field has the opposite 'polarity'. These fields will tend to cancel and the equivalent frequency for say a 1 cm twist pitch is about 30GHz, a little outside normal audio.

So, twists are very good at rejecting common mode magnetic pick-up and reducing emissions. Spirals won't due this; as stated, twist (criss-cross) each wire around the other.
See the attached picture.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108206)
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: Selarom on 8 Nov 2014, 06:13 pm
Yes (twisted). Basically, think of it this way: for a two wire circuit (AC or DC), at any instant, one wire (say the left) is carrying the outward current and other one (say the right wire) is carrying the (equal) return current, excepting the time when capacitors are charging (storing charge/current). Each loop of the twist emits a small magnetic field (think of a single turn of a simple solenoid or transformer). But the neighboring loop is in the opposite sense - the right/left wires become left/right  due to the twist, so the neighboring field has the opposite 'polarity'. These fields will tend to cancel and the equivalent frequency for say a 1 cm twist pitch is about 30GHz, a little outside normal audio.

So, twists are very good at rejecting common mode magnetic pick-up and reducing emissions. Spirals won't due this; as stated, twist (criss-cross) each wire around the other.
See the attached picture.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=108206)

Great post!

Thank you for this
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: clpetersen on 14 Nov 2014, 02:25 pm
Down to the wire - options and decisions

OK - here is where things stand, need to order to have parts on hand for a holiday-time build.
1) Ghent Audio just listed a very nice pair of mono blocks for the NC400 and SMPS600 combo (and others) - on ebay - $365 per pair
2) Aluminati is making stereo cases (milled from solid aluminum) - ~$1250 for the case
3) Siliconray and Ghent have cases that could work for stereo pairs, with some simple drilling for mounting required

So:
1) Stereo case or mono blocks? I think a stereo module could be assembled for $1200 or so, all in.  Monoblocks (using Ghent) would approach $1800. With mono blocks I would (like most) locate each block near the speaker and use a longer run of balanced XLR cable. 

2) If stereo, use one SMPS 1200A400 vs. one or two SMPS600 for the power supplies?  I see a lot of people have used the 1200A400.

In all cases I will add:
a) some sort of line fuse, like a 5x20mm standard fuse.
b) a trigger mode ('remote operation') using a simple 1W 9-12VDC supply and a simple relay (to be closed by the external trigger signal)
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: occamsrazor on 14 Nov 2014, 02:49 pm
I am debating the same possibilities. Monoblock does seem to be a nice way to go, especially if you need long runs to the speakers, but by going stereo you do save some money and avoid duplication on the power supply and case. It's a tough one...
I'd be very interested in how to enable the trigger mode.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: barrows on 14 Nov 2014, 04:39 pm
I prefer a stereo case for simplicity, the amp is still dual mono though, with two SMPS 600s.  The SMPS 600 is designed specifically for the NC-400, so I see no good reason to use something else, and full dual mono keeps me from getting paranoid about whether or not things could be better.  In my system, only 2.5 meter speaker cable is required with the stereo amp, so there is little to be gained by mono blocks and the hassle of an additional power cable.  By properly spacing inside the case there is plenty of separation between modules to make cross talk a non-issue. 
Save money on chassis and go with a stereo amp build, and then spend some money on good fuses.  BTW, the SMPS 600s have fuses built in, so you do not have to add any line fuses of your own, but most report thta upgrading these fuses will have benefits, so consider trying some aftermarket fuses.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: clpetersen on 14 Nov 2014, 06:24 pm
I am debating the same possibilities. Monoblock does seem to be a nice way to go, especially if you need long runs to the speakers, but by going stereo you do save some money and avoid duplication on the power supply and case. It's a tough one...
I'd be very interested in how to enable the trigger mode.

Trigger Mode: to put the SMPS supply into standby, the standby pin needs to have a voltage supplied to it, if no voltage the amp is powered on - normal operation. I don't have the specs in front of me, but I believe the standby signal is between 5 and 12VDC. Standard 12V trigger outputs (from say a pre-amp) are 12V when the device is on, 0V when off. So, you need to invert this.

To do this, get a very small  1 Watt (or less), 9 to 12VDC power supply (about $2- from someone like Mouser or Digikey) and a simple mechanical relay, also about $2.
The relay would be run 'normally closed'  -  contacts closed to supply the mains voltage (typ. 110 VAC) to turn on the 1W supply. The supply would then energize the standby pin, putting the SMPS into standby mode. As a bonus, this same voltage could be used to turn on an LED to indicate standby mode.  When the pre-amp is on, the 12V trigger signal would be applied to the relay coil, opening the contacts, de-energizing the 1W supply and bringing the SMPS into normal mode. The LED would also turn off.  You could use the DC signal voltage supplied from the SMPS to turn on a different (say green or blue) LED to indicate the system is powered.

Don't forget series resistors for the LED's.

Then your standby consumption is 1W, but more importantly, the SMPS and NC400 are not active ('idle') when not needed.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: clpetersen on 14 Nov 2014, 06:27 pm
Thank you for the reply. I missed that the SMPS600 has on board fuses. So this would simplify things.

Which case did you select?

Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: barrows on 14 Nov 2014, 07:45 pm
I work with Jesus at Sonore, and so I was able to use one of his custom cases for my build.  These are not really available for most folks though.
BTW, I would not go to the bother of hooking up the standby feature as the amps sound way better when kept powered, and at idle they use only a handful of watts anyway.  Instead, consider putting a switch on the Nampon wires: this will allow you to mute the amp output (handy for turning on other components which might have a DC spike) without shutting it down.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 12 Mar 2015, 02:28 pm
For my fresh build, I'm thinking of using Van Damme cable internally, as I have some lying around and I trust it. It is, however, quite thin, 0.75mm, as shown below. Is that ok?

(http://s16.postimg.org/rujd7yt2t/DSC_0030.jpg)
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: mikeeastman on 12 Mar 2015, 04:36 pm
If you are talking about the output wire to speaker post, I used a similar size wire, but my amp only powers the mids and highs of my efficient speakers. If your is driving full speakers I would think you will need bigger wire or twist several strands together, I'm sure someone that knows a lot more than me will chime in.
Title: Re: Newbie Help - Ncore build
Post by: zenpmd on 30 Mar 2015, 12:36 pm
Thanks Mike. Does anyone else have a view on whether that thickness speaker wire is ok?