[beowulf]

Beowolf/opnly bfld/seikosha

As you guys I'm one of those Decware forum readers who have noticed the (early) hints about a new SET amp with a little more power than the Zen. It would fit my speakers and room very well. Its my believe though that it would not be priced in the five figure price range. I'm not sure when it will be ready though, probably not for a while. I'm hoping +-3k, and maybe a preamp will be needed, that will add a +-2k extra ..
I don't actually need the extra watts, I'm getting full joy with the 4 I get from the MT, but I'm building/planning on a system #2 and with Omega speakers in that room I will have the option to swap speakers and amps back and forth..

It will be interesting to learn when and to price Steve will launch this amp.

Just speculating at this point but ...

I'm expecting (or should say hoping) somewhere between the Mini Torii and Torii MK4 as there seems to be a big hole in his lineup within those price ranges, if he stays with the same wattage/pricing convention (prices seem to go up as more watts are introduced) it would make sense that it would be more expensive than the Mini Torii, but less than the Torii MK4.  I'm also thinking that you would pair them up with a good preamp either the CSP or the new preamp he is developing would fit the bill (or preamp of choice as it's been my experience that Decware amps pair nicely with a lot of preamps).

[kevtn8]

As far as tube amps go I have heard SET, SEP, and PP, and of all of them my greatest experience lies with the Decware SE84c+, SE84CCE Select with V-Caps and stepped attenuator, and Super Zen Select (CKC) with V-Caps and stepped attenuator.  They all filled the room with listening volume for anyone except those who love it loud.  I have always fed the Zen with a 2 volt input, and generally had the volume control at 11-12 o'clock.

I had mentioned in opening this thread that I felt the Alnico 6.5" Hemp is underrated as far as it's sensitivity rating.  Being at only 2 watts, the Zen Amp gives me a pretty accurate indicator as to what a speaker's real world sensitivity is.  The Zen will run the original Hoyt-Bedford Type 1 (97dB rating) with ease, and I find it runs the Alnico with that same ease.

Even though amp to speaker synergy is critical, it's all a waste of time if you don't have a good source, whether it be DAC, vinyl, or CD player. 
I have been using the same DAC for years which I have been unable to improve upon.  It has a large impact on anything I put in front of it.

Hi Rob, I'm considering sending in my Zen Select for the stepped attenuators because of the superior channel to channel tracking. My only concern is the 20 steps of the attenuators. In your current system with the Alnico monitors, is the 20 steps sufficient? Are there times where you wanted to listen in between the steps? The reason I'm asking is because you told me you're not using a preamp and this is how I'm running my system as well so I'm curious. My current source is the Sony HAP-Z1ES which outputs 2 volts.

[Canada Rob]

kevtn8,

Never had an issue with wanting something in between in the way of steps.  If I did want to, I could fine adjust in Pure Music on the MacBook.  If you are sending your amp back for a stepped attenuator, you might see if Steve will install a Dact or Goldpoint as they may have more steps.

[kevtn8]

I was looking at the Goldpoint V24 which has 24 steps so its not a major difference to the Decware. However Steve says that he felt their current attenuators sounded better to him. He said that Decware used to use Goldpoint and DACT attenuators in the past but they are now using custom made attenuators from a supplier in Japan.

How many steps are you currently using on average with your Zen Select and Alnico monitors? I have noticed in the past that you said the Alnico monitors are conservatively rated ( they sounded louder than their rating of 93db). Still waiting on my Alnico monitors.

[Canada Rob]

My amp has the Japanese attenuator and I normally have it at about the halfway point or less (11 to 12 o'clock).  My DAC has 2V output.

[seikosha]

I've got the stepped attentuater and have never had an issue.  One thing to note is that the gain is different on the stepped vs. the regular.  It's much more linear with the stepped.  With the regular attentuater, I tended to listen at the 9 o'clock level, but with the stepped, it's more in the 12 o'clock range.

[JLM]

Getting back on topic (of sorts)...

I've tried a number of amps with my 91 dB/w/m, 8 ohm, 30 - 20,000 Hz single driver speakers.  Here's a sampling of the results:  The 2 wpc Decware amp puked (muffled, no dynamics, no frequency extension).  A 7 wpc class T I owned made them sound like polite dinner guests.  First generation Decware Rachel (12 wpc) was lively, lots of palpability, but lots of flabby bass.  40 watt chip mono-blocks I had for several years turned them into linebackers in tuxedos.  A 40 wpc push-pull tube integrated I bought was a fair step up but much more expensive and added hassle.  100 watt class D mono-blocks that I now own sound nearly as good as the tube amp with less hassle/energy use.

I've always been a believer in the idea of the amp having a commanding grip on the speakers to provide better resolution (detail/imaging) and that any serious amp/speaker/room combination should be able to reach realistic sound pressure levels, which is 105 dB for jazz or classical and 110 dB for rock.  (Note that I'm an old fart, not a head banger.)  The SE84 and Super Alnico would reach 96 dB in a 2,000 cubic foot room (loud, but less than half of real world levels).  To reach 105 - 110 dB in the same room the pair of Super Alnico's would require 16 - 50 wpc.  Can the Alnico (or any Omega driver) even handle that much power? 

[seikosha]

To me, playing music at 105+ decibels in a listening room is madness.  I can't believe that people actually do that.  105+ decibels in a huge hall is a lot different than 105+ in a small listening room.  Not sure why, but I can tolerate high decibels in big places much better than in a standard sized room.

[JLM]

seikosha, I get that sort of response nearly every time (which is why I keep posting it - to get the word out).

The key is "to be able to reach" those spls (in order to preserve dynamics and headroom).  After all, music is nothing more than peaks (and valleys) of sound pressure levels.  Classical is typically reported to have 30 dB peaks, jazz 20 dB, and rock 10 dB.  As I stated 96 dB is loud (I normally listen at ~75 dB, critical listening at maybe 85 dB).  The 105 - 110 dB goals I stated are only the standard values, some would use 130 dB (the threshold of pain)!  Of course the additional benefit of having lots of headroom is to avoid speaker damage from overloaded amps.

And as I've often warned, "Extended exposure to 85 dB or more will result in permanent hearing loss and possible permanent pain."  So one of my most important "components" is OSHA approved hearing protection that is worn when I mow.  I'm too much of an old fart and purist to understand why young people go to concerts where ear plugs are needed.

[seikosha]

JLM I think it's more important to preserve the dynamic swings rather than ultimate spl's.  A Jazz Combo playing in a small room will play quieter than one in a large venue.  Same with say a chamber orchestra.  Why use the maximum SPL values of an orchestra Playing in Carnegie as a reference.  It's not going to work when you translate it into a listening room unless you've got a monster room.

I've heard one speaker system in my life (IRS V in a huge room) that could only barely start to convey the energy and loudness of live music....and still, it had a ways to go.  No way you are going to recreate that energy with any speaker, let alone a single driver.  For me, if I can get the dynamic swings from 60-90db....I'm happy.

[JLM]

I have a friend who likes high spls.  He has a separate HT room (about 18ft x 20ft) where we've measured a clean 125 dB with huge amps and all Klipsch speakers.  What you're hearing in small rooms may be poor acoustic characteristics (in whatever a "standard" small room is) or amp/speakers being pushed too hard.

It is surprisingly loud being in the middle of a classical quartet.  (It's hard for performers of unamplified instruments to adjust spls by much.)

I agree that dynamics is more important than ultimate spls, but don't consider a 30 dB limit of dynamic range as a serious audio (or HT) experience.

[kevtn8]

JLM I think it's more important to preserve the dynamic swings rather than ultimate spl's.  A Jazz Combo playing in a small room will play quieter than one in a large venue.  Same with say a chamber orchestra.  Why use the maximum SPL values of an orchestra Playing in Carnegie as a reference.  It's not going to work when you translate it into a listening room unless you've got a monster room.

I've heard one speaker system in my life (IRS V in a huge room) that could only barely start to convey the energy and loudness of live music....and still, it had a ways to go.  No way you are going to recreate that energy with any speaker, let alone a single driver.  For me, if I can get the dynamic swings from 60-90db....I'm happy.

I couldn't agree more Seikosha. My ears/hearing are much more important than any speakers /amp and are the only reason we are able to enjoy this hobby so much. I will never take my ability to hear for granted. The synergy of the Zen Select and Omega speakers in my small room is perfect for me both in terms of loudness (that is safe with plenty of headroom) and dynamics. I have no desire to get anymore louder/dynamic than this. 

[Guy 13]

Hi all Omega fans
and that's including me,
because I consider myself as an Omega fan
even if at one time someone said that my Omega were not Omega
(Or something like that)
they are Omega purchased from Louis,
but without enclosures.
Anyway, I drive my Omega with a Decware SE84C+ (2wpc)
and I am happy, of course 10wpc would give the sound more dynamics
especially with demanding classical music,
but for now and maybe for a long time, my system will stay like that,
because it satisfy me plenty.
All that to say that you can be very happy with Omega (7F - 93dB)
and a SET 2wpc amplifier.

Guy 13



 

[JLM]

Upon re-reading seikosha's post, it occurs to me that there may be some confusion on my part.  Are we talking about dynamic range or listening levels?  By definition you can't hear music at or below background noise levels.  Please note that typical background noise is 30 - 40 dB in a quiet home (I throughly insulated my dedicated basement listening room to keep it as quiet as possible so I don't have to turn it quite as much up to hear the same dynamic range at a lower spl).   So to hear 60 - 90 dB of dynamics domestically you'd have to produce 90 - 130 dB of spl (dynamic range + background).  OTOH to listen at 60 - 90 dB, you'd only be hearing 20 - 60 dB of dynamic range (listening level - background). 

I invite you to read my first post above where I've outlined impressions of a variety of amps with my slightly less efficient extended range drivers that also have AlNiCo magnets.  I'm glad you're happy with a 2 wpc amp.  I was a DecHead for years and like the SE84.  It's a good amp with higher efficiency speakers in small rooms with small ensemble music. 

[smk]

Think the pairing would sound seriously good as long as you keep a tight reign on level control, 2wpc is 2wpc. You might consider an active tube preamplifier.

[jorgen]

Upon re-reading seikosha's post, it occurs to me that there may be some confusion on my part.  Are we talking about dynamic range or listening levels?  By definition you can't hear music at or below background noise levels.  Please note that typical background noise is 30 - 40 dB in a quiet home (I throughly insulated my dedicated basement listening room to keep it as quiet as possible so I don't have to turn it quite as much up to hear the same dynamic range at a lower spl).   So to hear 60 - 90 dB of dynamics domestically you'd have to produce 90 - 130 dB of spl (dynamic range + background).  OTOH to listen at 60 - 90 dB, you'd only be hearing 20 - 60 dB of dynamic range (listening level - background). 

I invite you to read my first post above where I've outlined impressions of a variety of amps with my slightly less efficient extended range drivers that also have AlNiCo magnets.  I'm glad you're happy with a 2 wpc amp.  I was a DecHead for years and like the SE84.  It's a good amp with higher efficiency speakers in small rooms with small ensemble music.

You are pointing towards important facts here. I also have a decware amp, 4wpc  and sometimes i wish i could have that extra power, or to honest a lot more power. If my amp was 8 wpc instead i would get 3db extra, or 16 watts for 6db extra, the problem is, those days when i want this i could probably add 12-15.18 extra db and still feel the need for more, and i would soon need a totally different amp, like a 150wpc amp. My point is that I,  for 90 percent of the time (or more), use only a little of my available 4 wpc, and those days when i feel like having a lot more oomph (when all the boys are visiting and drinking beer or whatever) i probably cant get enough no matter what. I have found a solution though, if i want really high spls i go for a ride in my car... the stereo there plays more than loud..

Or to be serious, hook up a pair of good headphones to your amp, a pair of Audeze LCD 2.2 to MiniTorii isnt bad.---

[JLM]

You are pointing towards important facts here. I also have a decware amp, 4wpc  and sometimes i wish i could have that extra power, or to honest a lot more power. If my amp was 8 wpc instead i would get 3db extra, or 16 watts for 6db extra, the problem is, those days when i want this i could probably add 12-15.18 extra db and still feel the need for more, and i would soon need a totally different amp, like a 150wpc amp. My point is that I,  for 90 percent of the time (or more), use only a little of my available 4 wpc, and those days when i feel like having a lot more oomph (when all the boys are visiting and drinking beer or whatever) i probably cant get enough no matter what. I have found a solution though, if i want really high spls i go for a ride in my car... the stereo there plays more than loud..

Or to be serious, hook up a pair of good headphones to your amp, a pair of Audeze LCD 2.2 to MiniTorii isnt bad.---

Yes the relationship between watts and dB is logarithmic, meaning that you must double the power to add 3 dB (to sound half again as loud) or provide 10 times the power to add 10 dB (to sound twice as loud).  So this rabbit hole (from Alice in Wonderland) can quickly lead to all sorts of other issues.  Larger amplifiers means different circuit designs, different tubes, leaving SET or gasp even tubes behind and even looking beyond solid state class A.  OTOH more efficient speakers means compromising convenient size, depth of bass response, ultimate output, and/or driver selection, and IME adds colorations.  Examples: an 82 dB/w/m low efficiency speaker would need 200 watts (23 dB of gain) to reach 105 dB while a 102 dB/w/m high efficiency speaker would only need 3 watts (3 dB of gain) to reach 105 dB.

A quiet room can lower the noise floor 10 dB, thereby providing 10 dB more headroom for greater dynamic/listening range or relieving the system of 10 dB of amplification/speaker efficiency demands.  As shown above, this is quite significant.  What constitutes a quiet room belongs in another circle, but structural isolation, insulation, and attention to detail are the keys.  Having a dedicated listening room of any description can be hard enough to achieve, but a quiet and properly sized/proportioned dedicated room is priceless for an audiophile.  It took me 30+ years at this, and building a new house, to get mine.  Now I can listen whenever I want and at whatever levels I want (within reason as my room isolation/insulation isn't perfect).

We must all find the best compromise to meet our needs/wants within present/future constraints.  For many, without a suitable (proper shape/size and insulated) listening room - in my travels the most common major constraint, a modest in room system along with a killer headphone setup might be the best compromise (that's what I did in the college dorm).  Another possible solution is to get everyone out of the house and use the HT system for rambunctious (less critical) listening.  Even my friend with the 125 dB HT system (in a dedicated room) has been "ordered" to restrain himself if family is home. 

[Canada Rob]

I agree with JLM.  The quiet listening room is very important.  Many (not all) listeners want to turn up their system to get the dynamics flowing.  One reason I keep pushing the Zen/Omega combo is because both amp and speakers are masters at low level dynamics and their synergy is amazing.  This combo will go loud enough to ultimately damage your ears, but will give full dynamics at low to medium volumes.

I think many aging baby boomers have damaged hearing and need their system louder.  I've experienced this with customers in my listening room.  If you have hearing in reasonably good condition, the Zen/Omega combo should work well.  I realize it's hard for many to wrap their head around 2 watts - it took me awhile before I finally plunged and bought my first Zen, but since then I haven't looked back.  The Zen/Omega combo to this day is still my reference for sound.  As an aside, I'm becoming very impressed with good class D and its lack of A/B graininess.

[DBC]

I purchased my first Zen Select 12 years ago and Super Zen 3 years ago. I've been to several Decware Fest's held each Fall (went this year, it was great people, great time). So I've heard all the other Decware gear and it's all Fine Stuff (Steve Deckert's vinyl rig  ). At the 2013 Fest I went thinking I might step up in power, ended up purchasing the Super Zen. This year I just went to look, now my Super Zen is in getting the UFO Modification. The more powerful amps give you more speaker options but at the Fest everything tends to get compared to the Zen amp as more or less the standard.

The combination of the Alnico Monitors with my Super Zen have really made power a non-issue for me. In my experience when I feel compelled to turn up the volume it's because I sense something is missing in the presentation. The Super Zen / Omega combo is so Transparent / Resolving / Open that the music sounds like it is all there at low and moderate volumes (as Rob suggests). At moderate volume I don't feel like anything is missing, seldom any urge to turn it up more.

More recently I've been experimenting with speaker height using the large IsoAcoustic Stands. I'm very impressed with these. I've found in my room that mounting the Monitors closer to the floor and tilted up towards the listener makes a big difference in boosting the lower end. The low end remains very clean, system simply sounds more powerful. Note that I have a larger room and that I listen to a lot of Classic Rock. I've read here where some have Issues with the Highs on some recordings and you might want to experiment with the monitors placed closer to the Floor. In my experience a Forward High End can often be muted somewhat by reinforcing the Lower Frequencies (the brain works in strange ways).

For the last few weeks while my Super Zen has been out for the UFO Mod, I've been using my Peachtree 220SE Digital amp (fine piece, 220 watts / channel). Obviously no power deficit here. Actually never go past 9 O'clock on the volume or it just gets too loud. The Peachtree and Omega sound great together but I can tell you I miss the magic of the Super Zen. Over the past year I've gone back & forth between the two amps. Probably fair to say 20% Peachtree, 80% Super Zen. So much for power alone.