AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Cheap and Cheerful HiFi => Topic started by: drphoto on 24 Jul 2019, 09:07 pm
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Hey guys.....I've been away from this forum for years now, but had to post about an interesting find. I use my MacPro laptop as my everything.....to watch Netflix, the news, etc. As one might guess from my avatar, I play guitar and do some recording.....so I run outboard speakers. I first got one of those cheap Chinese Class D amps. I was basically happy that it could even drive the speakers I was using, an old pair of those Onix Ref 1's. Gradually I realized that though it worked it didn't sound all that great. Finally it just quit.
So on a whim I decided to get a 'real' amp. I found a Sony STR-DH190 at Best Buy as an open box for $130. (rated at 100w/ channel) complete w/ front panel mini stereo input for the laptop. I thought, well Sony makes quality stuff, so ordered it.
I am here to tell you I was gobsmacked by how good it sounded. With in an hour swapped in my Merlin TSM-MMe speakers.....a $2500 pair of speakers. Holy crap Batman.....this sounds amazing. The amp uses discrete components. It has a beefy tranny and some rather large filter caps (though I'm sure they're electolydic)
The ONLY thing I don't like, is that it uses those cheap ass spring loaded speaker wire connectors, so I can't use my beloved Reality Cables.
I tend to be one who has buyer remorse and will start nitpicking after the honeymoon phase, but the more I listen the better I like. I honestly don't know how they can do this level of quality for the money. You could probable swap out those filter caps for teflon or the like and put in proper binding post and have a giant killer.....but I'm not gonna bother.
I was so impressed that I bought a $30 Sony DVD player to use as CD transport. Of course I'm running my Stan Warren modded Dacmagic as my digital processor. Pulling out old disk I had not listened to in years.
No isolation points or elastomers on any gear. Using 12ga extension cord cable for speaker wire and am enjoying audio more that I have in years. I am running one of my GR Research open baffle subs, but speakers are not high passed.
Cheers to all. :D
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Great find and thanks for sharing!
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I think one reason this sounds good, is that it has a linear PS.......I know that because it is a US version rated for 120v. A cheap switching PS will handle multiple voltage. One thing I've learned by having several pieces of Stan Warren modded gear is that power supplies make a huge difference. And all the money you spend on high quality power amps is largely tied up in the PS.
I originally wanted an integrated, but I'm actually thrilled I have an FM tuner so I can listen to NPR.
It also has a phono input, for those who care.
I may go looney at some point and buy another one to mod. It is that damn good. I mean the sound is clean and balanced. There is not any hint of 'glare' or 'edginess'. It can even throw a reasonably good soundstage using the Merlin's near field. At the risk of rambling, I can sometimes hear something that sounds good at first, but upon extending listening ear fatigue sets in. Not with this unit. My work days start at 5 am now, and I have stayed up way too late a few times just enjoying the music.
I think part of the fun, is I had ZERO expectations, other than it make play sound. I started to not have fun w/ my main rig, because I found I was listening to the system and nitpicking it instead of listening to music. I just gave up.......hence my absence from this site for so long.
This cheap receiver made it all fun again. I can't think of higher praise for any piece of gear.
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DrPhoto,
Thanks for sharing this. I see you have the Odyssey Strato monos as your other amp. How good is this Sony compared to the Strato? 10%, 50%, 90%?
Thanks!!!
Duc
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Duc, I don't think I can answer that as I don't have the Odyssey amps hooked up, as I shorted the output on one of them and need to send back for repair.
Plus, I don't want to turn this into a pissing contest. As I said in last post, I lost interest in audio due to fixation with gear. I love the Sony because it makes me happy. The Odyssey amps power my main rig in a fairly large room, the Sony only has to deal with near field.
What I do know is appears both companies offer amazing performance for a reasonable price.
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$130 looks like the regular price now at BB or Amazon
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I love the Sony because it makes me happy.
DrPhoto,
Gotcha. That's what it's all about. I will definitely put this on my short list the next time I go shopping for a stereo amp.
Thanks for sharing this!
Duc
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Years ago I picked up the cheapest Sony HT receiver ($150) Best Buys had to complete my modest AV system. And it easily bested my Rotel receiver ($700) on clarity, reliability, longevity, and FM reception.
Being a big faceless stockholder owned company doesn't necessarily mean they build crap, it means they can build high value/high quality gear.
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I am listening to a hi Rez recording of Radiohead's 'Kid A'. I am flat out floored by the level of inner detail this amp can produce. In order to prove to myself I am not suffering from early onset dementia, I offer up a challenge. Someone buy this and give it a serious listen. If you don't like it, I will buy it from you for your purchase price plus shipping. And then I'll mod with real binding post and teflon filter caps. Over the years I've read about the mythical 'giant killers'' I think by mere chance I've actually found one.
BTW: I will have to admit, that I think small speakers like my Merlins probably work best near field And that might be part of the sound I like and why I was never happy when they were in the main rig in a fairly large room.
But I will still stand by everything I've said about the Sony. And no.....I do not work for them or get paid to promote.
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At $130, there's not much margin to pay you to promote anyway.....
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I am listening to a hi Rez recording of Radiohead's 'Kid A'. I am flat out floored by the level of inner detail this amp can produce. In order to prove to myself I am not suffering from early onset dementia, I offer up a challenge. Someone buy this and give it a serious listen. If you don't like it, I will buy it from you for your purchase price plus shipping. And then I'll mod with real binding post and teflon filter caps. Over the years I've read about the mythical 'giant killers'' I think by mere chance I've actually found one.
BTW: I will have to admit, that I think small speakers like my Merlins probably work best near field And that might be part of the sound I like and why I was never happy when they were in the main rig in a fairly large room.
But I will still stand by everything I've said about the Sony. And no.....I do not work for them or get paid to promote.
drphoto,
I appreciate reading your comments about the Sony and the Merlins!
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Ok here's something that I want your opinion about. While I do think the Sony is insanely good for the money, I also think I like this sound because I'm running the Merlins near field. I'm starting to wonder if you really can run a smallish monitor on stands in a fairly big room (even with good subs) and expect it to work. So that's my question to you dear reader. Have you had small speakers in a large room work? I dunno, if I fire up my big system again, I think I'll go back to Maggies. Not a perfect speaker (not even sure that exist) but what they do well, they do great. I just loved my ancient 2c's I got back in the 80's.
I contracted Gregg at Reality Cable to see if you could make up a short set of speaker wires for this rig. Will let all know if it makes a difference. I know people will debate wire until the sun becomes a red giant and destroys the earth. But I think his stuff sounds amazing and is affordable. I told him that the best I've ever speaker cables I ever heard were by Sonoran Desert Plateau but you'd have to take a second mortgage or sell a kidney to afford.
Honestly the biggest problem I'm having right now is that this setup sounds so good I stay up way too late blasting music. My day at the hospital starts at 5 am. I might have to start getting IV caffeine. (which is actually a thing, but it's used in preemies to help their breathing, not for an energy boost)
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Drphoto,
Are you going to use the new set of Reality Cables in the nearfield Merlin set up?
Will you try powering the Maggie’s with the Sony?
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Bill, no way I'd try the Sony with Maggies. I still have my Odyssey Stratos Monos (though I need to have one repaired, due to me being an idiot and shorting the output) One of the drawbacks to Maggies is that they are fairly inefficient. They need big power to sound right.
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Oh one other thing I would like for you folks to give an opinion. When I first got into higher end audio in college, I was told that real audiophile preamps don't have tone controls because they cause phase shifts and screw up imaging. Well I bought into this idea, and did tone tweaking buy trying lot's of cables.
But you know what? The Sony has tone controls, and I love it. And I don't go crazy with it......I pulled up an old CCR tune, and it sounded a bit dull. One click on the treble made it sound more balanced. If the basic timbre isn't there, then does it matter if it sounds holographic? I do semi pro FoH sound engineering. I manipulating EQ on everything. But I do still believe in the mantra of 'cut first', avoid 'boost'.
I'm thinking that part of that fun factor I mentioned above regarding the Sony......is that it sorta shatters these myths I had believed in for years. An amp does not have to have matched set NOS tubes sprinkled with fairy dust to sound good. So what if it doesn't throw an image outside of the speakers or seem to have depth to soundstage. IMO, there are very few recording that have that sort of spatial information anyway. Maybe part of getting older is just saying, ya know.....90% is good enough. The last 10% is a fools errand.
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Oh one other thing I would like for you folks to give an opinion. When I first got into higher end audio in college, I was told that real audiophile preamps don't have tone controls because they cause phase shifts and screw up imaging. Well I bought into this idea, and did tone tweaking buy trying lot's of cables.
But you know what? The Sony has tone controls, and I love it. And I don't go crazy with it......I pulled up an old CCR tune, and it sounded a bit dull. One click on the treble made it sound more balanced. If the basic timbre isn't there, then does it matter if it sounds holographic? I do semi pro FoH sound engineering. I manipulating EQ on everything. But I do still believe in the mantra of 'cut first', avoid 'boost'.
I'm thinking that part of that fun factor I mentioned above regarding the Sony......is that it sorta shatters these myths I had believed in for years. An amp does not have to have matched set NOS tubes sprinkled with fairy dust to sound good. So what if it doesn't throw an image outside of the speakers or seem to have depth to soundstage. IMO, there are very few recording that have that sort of spatial information anyway. Maybe part of getting older is just saying, ya know.....90% is good enough. The last 10% is a fools errand.
I will second that. 100% is great to achieve, but many recordings can use some more EQ. Most of the older recordings desperately needs more.
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@drphoto,
How are you enjoying your system and the new Sony DH190?
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Ok, so we are now more than a month in....right? By this time, the buyer remorse should have set in and I would start picking it apart. But you know what? I can find no fault. (other than the crappy speaker connections)
I normally hate 'consumer' grade audio because of listener fatigue.
Guess what? There is none with this receiver. I am not suggesting anyone dump their high dollar amps to go buy Sony receivers. As I have noted, I think part of the fun I'm having is running the Merlin monitors near field. It makes me want to get my Odyssey amp repaired and use them, along with my Mapletree tube pre in this set up.
But I will swear on a stack of the 'The Absolute Sound' This receiver does virtually nothing wrong. It falls down in the last 10% of refinement, but what the hell do you expect for $130? But I'm listening to music again and having fun. I say up way too late rocking out. (or jazzing out......still a jazz fan)
I am still seriously considering buying one to try to mod. It is that damn good.
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Ok, so we are now more than a month in....right? By this time, the buyer remorse should have set in and I would start picking it apart. But you know what? I can find no fault. (other than the crappy speaker connections)
I normally hate 'consumer' grade audio because of listener fatigue.
Guess what? There is none with this receiver. I am not suggesting anyone dump their high dollar amps to go buy Sony receivers. As I have noted, I think part of the fun I'm having is running the Merlin monitors near field. It makes me want to get my Odyssey amp repaired and use them, along with my Mapletree tube pre in this set up.
But I will swear on a stack of the 'The Absolute Sound' This receiver does virtually nothing wrong. It falls down in the last 10% of refinement, but what the hell do you expect for $130? But I'm listening to music again and having fun. I say up way too late rocking out. (or jazzing out......still a jazz fan)
I am still seriously considering buying one to try to mod. It is that damn good.
Hey!
Wow, on a stack of "The Absolute Sound" magazines with mega buck stuffs on their covers! Now that says a lot about this little Sony.
Anyway, you mean this one...
https://www.amazon.com/Sony-STRDH190-Stereo-Receiver-Bluetooth/dp/B078WFDR8D/ref=pd_ybh_a_30?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=8Y9THMZER5ANZN1AQWD3 (https://www.amazon.com/Sony-STRDH190-Stereo-Receiver-Bluetooth/dp/B078WFDR8D/ref=pd_ybh_a_30?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=8Y9THMZER5ANZN1AQWD3)
Well, look like the price have gone up a bit. But I look at the descriptions below and I'm surprised that they stick with traditional discrete amp instead of going for cheaper route with class D amp for more power. The amp section look good, with just one pair of transistors per channel. I think the simplicity of this amp have much to do with the way it sound, just one pair of transistors per channel and very short signal path.
Although, is say 100wpc, but that is at 1K, so likely I think it is more like 40-60wpc at full range. Still from your description of how you like the sound of this, I think it is worth looking at some mod. Maybe better coupling caps or by pass them with better caps. But I have to say sometime if it sounds great now maybe just leave it the way it is. I've learned this the hard way. Better parts doesn't always mean better sound :roll: Look like there is enough room on top of the speaker terminal, maybe you can drill holes above it and put a pair of binding posts on top it and solder wire from the PCB or terminal below to them.
Anyway, still at the current price of $148, with discrete amp and phono stage! This looks pretty good.
Buddy
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90 watts x 2 (stereo) into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at .09% THD
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This one could be the same unit in a slightly different case, with better binding posts. Most of these units are not made in a company factory (Sony) where wages and benefits are too high to manufacture at this price point, they're contracted to Chinese facilities where numerous manufacturers run on the same line.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00OZ5852Q/ref=psdcmw_14269301_t2_B00P6NK812
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You could be correct, and if so, be a better solution than modding the Sony.
Again, the key here is discrete components in the amp section, not chip amps and maybe more importantly a linear PS. This is rare in mass market audio.
Great for those starting out, or wanting a 2nd system or way better than average computer audio.
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Different enough to not be sure. I like the layout of the Sony better, the Sony has a direct mode button, that usually bypasses tone and loudness controls for a supposedly purer sound. The Sherwood may have that in the menu screen, but no mention in the blurb for it. And of course the better binding posts on the Sherwood. Both amps are spec'd the same, such as it is, and both show a power supply deficiency with only 40Hz to 20kHz +/- 3db at rated power, 8ohm. Not a real problem given the price and speakers one might pair with it.
I was thinking about the tone controls affecting the sound or not. The electronic nature of the controls might not affect the sq as much as manual controls? In any case it can be easily tested with the Direct button.
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Hey gang. New update. Of course I couldn't leave well enough alone. So I had Reality Cable make me a short set of speaker cables with pins on on end, thinking I could use them on the spring loaded terminals on the Sony. Turned out to be a dumb idea, as I ended up breaking the terminals, as the barely open. At best you could insert tinned 14 wire in them. Well I guess now I will get to try an upgrade, so ordered a generic set of real binding post from Parts Express. But knowing it my take forever to find the time to install, I bought an Onkyo TS-8020 from BB. Similar if not better specs and again a linear PS and discrete transistor amps. But it had real binding post.....albeit, the really crappy consumer grade ones really meant for banana plugs. As per the above post, I thought well maybe it's the same amp with a different name. I really like the design of the Onkyo, real physical knobs for the tone and balance controls.
So are they the same amps made in same Malaysian factory in a different case? Sorry, NO. Not even close in sound. This amp barely gets the job done. It is distinctly mid fi. Despite having better posted specs it runs out of gas pretty quickly. Everything sounds much more compressed. I don't hate it, but it does not come close to the Sony for sound.
Hopefully I can successfully install the binding post on the Sony, but it will be tricky as these modern amps don't use P to P wiring. I'll have to completely disassemble the chassis to figure out the contact point.
Sorry for the long winded ramble. But for me, the Sony is a true Cheap and Cheerful champ. I should have stayed with that idea and accepted that part of being C & C is using 'lamp' cord speaker wire.
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I wonder if any other model of the Sony STR-DHxxx family has similar performance. Usually products from same series share some design approaches and technical solutions like discrete output devices and linear power supply :scratch:
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sorry wrong post :duh:
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Hey, this Sony STR-DH190 seems to be on sale now for $98. I may pick one up at this price.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078WFDR8D
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1391696-REG/sony_strdh190_str_dh190_stereo_receiver.html
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https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/sony-str-dh190-stereo-receiver-reviewed.9478/