AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => VMPS Speakers => Topic started by: royal on 10 Jun 2014, 03:41 am
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I have been using an Outlaw Audio 5 channel power amp, model 750, with my rm2's since I bought them both, around 5 years ago. It's a home theater amp of course and I have long wondered if my speakers could use something better. Is that reasonable? Would I be likely to hear a big difference if I bought something on Audiogon for say $1500? My source is usually a computer with sound card, digital signal > Cambridge Audio 740c > Placette remote volume control (sometimes a DYI tube preamp)> Outlaw 750 . I am generally pleased with my sound but just want to experiment/upgrade - you understand I'm sure. So any suggestions?
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I don't think you are going to get a night/day difference by changing amps. I would look more at your source equipment. The biggest difference for me is when I upgraded from a Pioneer AVR to a Meridian processor.
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There are Maraschino and big Cherry demos currently available. Send a PM if interested. Thanks.
-Tommy O
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so does everyone agree with Brax?
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I have been using an Outlaw Audio 5 channel power amp, model 750, with my rm2's since I bought them both, around 5 years ago. It's a home theater amp of course and I have long wondered if my speakers could use something better. Is that reasonable? Would I be likely to hear a big difference if I bought something on Audiogon for say $1500? My source is usually a computer with sound card, digital signal > Cambridge Audio 740c > Placette remote volume control (sometimes a DYI tube preamp)> Outlaw 750 . I am generally pleased with my sound but just want to experiment/upgrade - you understand I'm sure. So any suggestions?
You would get a tremendous improvement in sound by acquiring a decent 2-channel amp such as an Odyssey Stratos for less than a grand. With that being said, you shouldn't just stop at upgrading your amp. Virtually everything else in the chain should be upgraded to the same level, beginning with the source. Budget $1,500 for a decent used DAC. Hold onto the Placette for a while, then upgrade it later on. If you're not willing to upgrade everything, including all of your cables, then enjoy what you have.
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You would get a tremendous improvement in sound by acquiring a decent 2-channel amp such as an Odyssey Stratos for less than a grand. With that being said, you shouldn't just stop at upgrading your amp. Virtually everything else in the chain should be upgraded to the same level, beginning with the source. Budget $1,500 for a decent used DAC. Hold onto the Placette for a while, then upgrade it later on. If you're not willing to upgrade everything, including all of your cables, then enjoy what you have.
Sorry but I am not sure I understand your advice. 1) Are you saying that nothing in my system is up to the level of the RM2's?
2) I wouldn't get an improvement from just upgrading the amp? 3) It would be great to upgrade everything at once but where do I get the $10K? :)
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You could get a big improvement with a good amp. But, The outlaw is a pretty darned good amp. Have you tried using 4 channels to biamp the RM2 s? That would prob sound great. A good preamp would/could make a big improvement. You don't have to spend big money to get killer sound. To start with, you have great speakers. That's what most budget systems don't have. The sound card could also sound bad or thin. Good luck. Post pics and keep us updated.
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Sorry but I am not sure I understand your advice. 1) Are you saying that nothing in my system is up to the level of the RM2's?
2) I wouldn't get an improvement from just upgrading the amp? 3) It would be great to upgrade everything at once but where do I get the $10K? :)
1) Absolutely. Your RM2's can sound so much better with better gear. I'm also saying that once you start upgrading, you won't be able to stop. :)
2) You'd get a huge improvement from upgrading the amp only, but the amp will also reveal weaknesses in other parts of your system. For example, as PMAT mentioned, the amp will likely "amplify" just how bad your sound card is, and the deficiencies in your 740C.
3) Upgrade piece by piece. In a year or two, you'll have an entirely different system.
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For a few hundred dollars you could pick up a used Meridian (or other good processor) and try it out. If you don't get the improvement your looking for, just sell it.
I'd start with the processor first I think it has the biggest impact on the sound quality. Even the best amp can not improve a bad incoming signal. I think you will be suprised how good your amp will sound once fed a clean signal.
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The subject of the thread & the OP originally asked about amplifiers but the thread is evolving to include the entire signal chain. With regard to soundcards, it's not that they are inherently poor performers, it's just that computer guts are a hostile environment. Moving to an external DA (or AD/DA) is a relatively inexpensive solution & downright cheap compared to audiophile pricing if one is willing to consider pro audio solutions. AD/DAs from companies such as Avid, Focusrite & Behringer are available for ~$200 (some models less, some much, much more) from major online dealers such as Sweetwater and BHphotovideo. Investigate their return policies. They may amount to free home auditions. Audio level interface products (e.g. Aphex model 124) exist if converting between pro and consumer signals is an issue. A side benefit which doesn't appear to apply to the OP but may help those with record collections is the ability to rip their LPs for no added cost since most pro DAs are also ADs.
I have never had the opportunity to do a direct comparison of pro AD/DAs with high prices audiophile products so I can not speak to that topic. I would be interested if anyone has and cares to share their findings. Brian C's DXO is a Behringer product if that has any meaning in this context.
As always, YMWV.
/mp
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OK, this is getting interesting now. So concerning the source first: I am using an Xonar Essence stx http://www.asus.com/Sound_Cards_and_DigitaltoAnalog_Converters/Xonar_Essence_STX/ (http://www.asus.com/Sound_Cards_and_DigitaltoAnalog_Converters/Xonar_Essence_STX/)
I use the spdif output going to the Cambridge audio 740 C for DAC. I was under the impression that the 740C was a respectable DAC.
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You could get a big improvement with a good amp. But, The outlaw is a pretty darned good amp. Have you tried using 4 channels to biamp the RM2 s? That would prob sound great. A good preamp would/could make a big improvement. You don't have to spend big money to get killer sound. To start with, you have great speakers. That's what most budget systems don't have. The sound card could also sound bad or thin. Good luck. Post pics and keep us updated.
Yes I do use the outlaw to biamp.
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I don't think you are going to get a night/day difference by changing amps. I would look more at your source equipment. The biggest difference for me is when I upgraded from a Pioneer AVR to a Meridian processor.
Yah, I guess so! Switching from several weeks past due date packaged food to fresh gourmet! :lol:
RM2 appreciate superb high current/high power amp. Best value for this application IMO: build a stereo Hypex UcD700 or stereo Ncore NC400 (both with SMPS1200A400), former estimate $1k, latter $1350. The latter amp requires some research to hard wire, not plug and play.
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RM2 appreciate superb high current/high power amp. Best value for this application IMO: build a stereo Hypex UcD700 or stereo Ncore NC400 (both with SMPS1200A400), former estimate $1k, latter $1350. The latter amp requires some research to hard wire, not plug and play.
Thanks for the suggestion but not really up for a DIY right now.
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I use the spdif output going to the Cambridge audio 640 C for DAC.
I was under the false impression you used your sound card as the DA.
Mea culpa,
/mp
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Yah, I guess so! Switching from several weeks past due date packaged food to fresh gourmet! :lol:
RM2 appreciate superb high current/high power amp. Best value for this application IMO: build a stereo Hypex UcD700 or stereo Ncore NC400 (both with SMPS1200A400), former estimate $1k, latter $1350. The latter amp requires some research to hard wire, not plug and play.
Just so I understand this comment, regardless of the input signal quality, a good amp will make it sound great.
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For a few hundred dollars you could pick up a used Meridian (or other good processor) and try it out. If you don't get the improvement your looking for, just sell it.
checked on Audiogon and there are no meridian DAC for sale. What other brand/model would you suggest?
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Just so I understand this comment, regardless of the input signal quality, a good amp will make it sound great.
Sorry to be so harsh, but your interpretive skills are lacking, and that's being polite.
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No Brax, Jim is not saying that at all. Being very familiar with the RM 2 ( more than all of us ) he is singing the praises of solid amplification. If I understand it, building on a weak foundation is just that.
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James,
The OP asked if he would hear a BIG difference in in sound quality in his system just by upgrading his amp. He also stated he is biamping his RM-2s with is Outlaw amp. In this configuration he would be feeding his speakers 300 watts to the low and 300 to the high end of each speaker. This is with an amp with respectable numbers, -100db crosstalk between channels, 50 volt slew rate, a dampening factor greater than 400 and a signal to noise ratio of 0.03% at the rated output. This amp is not equal to many of the better Audio grade amps available but I don’t think it is the weak link in his system.
Can his system be improved with a better amp, of course it can. Will it be the BIG difference he is looking for, I don’t think so. When I gave the OP my advice, I prefaced it with “for me” improving the source gave me a better bang for the buck (Larger perceived improvement in sound quality) than when I upgraded my amps. The amps you suggest look very good but I think you skirted the question. Will even upgrading to one of the amps you suggest make the big difference the OP is looking for or would the $1,500 be better spent elsewhere in his system. For $1,500 he could have upgrades to a set of RM40s that were just sold on Ebay.
On a personal level, you are very knowledgeable and experienced when it comes to audio, too bad your tack with us less knowledgeable members isn’t so well developed.
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OP proposed amp upgrade, no other upgrade.
Stereo Hypex NC400 would kill any Outlaw amp real or imaginary, and leave no trace of remains. Have you directly compared NC400 to anything noteworthy?
Your points are general, but in this specific discussion, lacking terribly. I owned RM2, which was separated from NC400 at birth.
Nothing prevents OP from other upgrade after amp upgrade. Me thinks thou dost protest too much, and reading way too much into this discussion.
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James,
The OP asked if he would hear a BIG difference in in sound quality in his system just by upgrading his amp. He also stated he is biamping his RM-2s with is Outlaw amp. In this configuration he would be feeding his speakers 300 watts to the low and 300 to the high end of each speaker. This is with an amp with respectable numbers, -100db crosstalk between channels, 50 volt slew rate, a dampening factor greater than 400 and a signal to noise ratio of 0.03% at the rated output. This amp is not equal to many of the better Audio grade amps available but I don’t think it is the weak link in his system.
Can his system be improved with a better amp, of course it can. Will it be the BIG difference he is looking for, I don’t think so. When I gave the OP my advice, I prefaced it with “for me” improving the source gave me a better bang for the buck (Larger perceived improvement in sound quality) than when I upgraded my amps.
I think the OP would realize a BIG difference with a better amp because the Outlaw is a weak link. An Outlaw amp might be OK for a "starter separates" HT system, but the sound quality is simply lacking for two-channel listening, regardless of power, specs, and bi-amping. I agree that $1,500 could be better spent on other components, though. My suggestions would be to spend approximately $800 on a used Odyssey Stratos or similar price-for-performance amp and use the remaining funds (plus the sale of the Outlaw and Cambridge CDP) for a higher quality source.
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I know little about OPs Cambridge 740c CDP. How do folks rate it?
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I know little about OPs Cambridge 740c CDP. How do folks rate it?
I had the 640c several years ago. I would consider it entry level.
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Hey everyone, although I haven't had much to say I have been reading and thinking about all of the posts. It seems like it may be a toss-up as to which piece to upgrade first. I am leaning toward doing the amp first, just because I have had the 740C CDP for only about a year. Before that I was using a Norh CD1. It bit the dust and I needed something right away to replace it. I was wanting to try out a computer as a source because of the convenience. I didn't put a lot of research into the purchase of the 740C and possibly made a bad choice. Anyway, I just don't feel like replacing it now since I haven't had it long. So, the Stratos and the Ncore both sound interesting. Any other specific recommendations for the amp?
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Any other specific recommendations for the amp?
I used to own the model prior to the RM2's, and I can tell you that VMPS speakers love power. Don't skimp on power. :)
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I used to own the model prior to the RM2's, and I can tell you that VMPS speakers love power. Don't skimp on power. :)
Datz wut am tawkn' abowt rite dare!
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I'm running my RM2s with a pair of Emotiva XPA-1 monoblocks. In the past I have run them with a Yamaha RXA-3010 receiver, and an Adcom GFA-555 stereo amp. The Emotivas feed 1000 watts apiece into each speaker. I can listen to music with them full range safely as long as I don't get stupid with the volume control. For most listening (including movies) however, I cross them over at 80Hz to keep the megawoofers from trying to eject themselves from the cabinets! Sound-wise I still think they sounded best using my Adcom 200wpc amp (400watts into the 4 Ω Rm2s). I personally tried biamping & biwiring mine but always preferred what i considered a more balanced sound when utilizing a single input. I have had mine since the 90's.
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Powering my ST/R or the RM-1s with Tommy O"Briens super tasty Cherry Ultra amp. VMPS models may be rated highly efficient in db, but really come alive with a good solid digital amp. As I recall the Adcom 555 mkII had a very hot top end, midrange not much better, its forte was in the bass. Preferring it over the Emotiva mono-bloc amps tells me all I need to know ... buy American!
Feed them RM-2 with a quality amp and sit back and listen in amazement like I have been. Tommy O"s Cherry Ultra is peaches with me!
DW
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Powering my ST/R or the RM-1s with Tommy O"Briens super tasty Cherry Ultra amp. VMPS models may be rated highly efficient in db, but really come alive with a good solid digital amp. As I recall the Adcom 555 mkII had a very hot top end, midrange not much better, its forte was in the bass. Preferring it over the Emotiva mono-bloc amps tells me all I need to know ... buy American!
Feed them RM-2 with a quality amp and sit back and listen in amazement like I have been. Tommy O"s Cherry Ultra is peaches with me!
DW
Per US Customs regulation, what is "country of origin" for Emotiva amps? I was thinking they were US made, but now can't recall.
I have absolutely nothing against Emotiva and it's legions of rabid fans. Obviously they are a marketing success. I could not resist the temptation and auditioned XPA-3 with my then-Trinaural based system (replaced after six years with LCS Late Ceiling Splash stereo system). After thorough "seasoning" for several days continuously powering 86.5 dB Dynaudio Esotec 2-way (a very neutral system overall, dead center yin-yang), Debra thought it was so hot in the mid-treble she practically leaped from the chair. IIRC I coerced her to listen briefly to multiple software, to no avail, exact same verdict. She was offended by it!
In the XPA's defense, as advertised, for power hungry speakers ala Dynaudio and VMPS, certainly no one will soon be crying for more power. Never ever approached it's power limits. Magnitude: affirmative. Quality: negative. YMMV.
I remember years ago, ATI 250W @ 8 Ohm stereo power amp driving VMPS 626R...the ATI regularly was stressed beyond its limit driving 626R, which I rate as power hungry as the lowest sensitivity speakers I ever owned, late 60s Dynaco A-50. A Carver-designed Phase Linear 400 amp drove the A50 in a San Francisco Sunset District home built circa early 50s. On transients at high power, the amp's power meter lights would dim, as would every light in the whole house!
To think five people somehow managed to live in a 3BR/1Bath home, with only one car, a one car garage, and those cute little tin garbage cans lined with paper! Oh, the humanity....
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Franklin, Tenn. offices but made in China ..... I too was curious on their mono-bloc amps, insane wattage and massive also. If I were a younger audiophile they may be a viable option at a modest price point. Don't think their big mono-blocks would be considered modest in cost compared to what else is available thou. Learned a long time ago wattage is nice to have on hand but by no means does it alone decide a power amps sound quality.
DW
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I've decided to have James build a stereo ncore nc400 for my RM2's. Now the waiting begins. Thanks to everyone for your input.
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Royal,
Cool man, keep us up to date once you have it awhile. Your RM-2s will thank you.
DW
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Got an email today from James and my chassis is due in "about a week" so maybe I will be listening to my new amp in a couple of weeks. This will work out nice since I just moved into my new room. I have a detached garage that I had converted into my own living/media room. Now I can finally play my music and movies without bothering anyone. I'll post some pics later.
I've downloaded the following music from HD Tracks and am playing a playlist from these albums to get the sound really stamped in my mind for a comparison. They are all downloaded in uncompressed FLAC format. I use Jriver Media Center software for playback.
1. America - America 192 khz
2. Gabor Szabo - Spellbinder 44.1 kHz
3. Hot Tuna - Live at the Beacon 96 khz
4. Pink Floyd - Dark Side Of The Moon 44.1 khz
5. Rahsaan Roland Kirk - Krikatron 192khz
6. Steely Dan - Gaucho 96 khz
7. The Doors - The Complete Studio Albums 44.1 khz
8. War - The World is a Ghetto 96 kHz
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First, as they do on the Oscars and such, I'd like to thank all those who contributed to my getting this amp. Wow! I usually thought before that my system sounded good. In fact I often marveled at how nice a particular song sounded. Now, I'm ALMOST tired of getting the chills. Again WOW!! I guess in a nutshell as one friend put it "it sounds like real instruments here in the room with us" (edit: not that I personally think it sounds completely real of course) If it is true that, as some said here, that my source is not that good then well.... Anyway, I don't have all the high fangled sounding vocabulary to describe the effect. I'll just give an example or two of realizing, in a bunch of songs I've heard dozens of times before, that a kind of "knocking" sound is actually a drumstick tapping against the edge of the drum, or that a high kind of "tinkling" sound in the background is actually a xylophone, or a soft thumping is actually one of those soft headed drum sticks being hit on kettle drum. I have a hi res recording of a live performance by the blues/rock band Hot Tuna. Before, I couldn't pick out the bass players location on the stage (mostly very low notes on electric bass and not mixed loud)- now I can. In fact even when all three instruments, in some trio say, seem to be standing in the center of the stage, now I can tell one is slightly to the right or left of the others. - one last example - I always thought I didn't like classical music much until I went a couple of times to see the SF Symphony. It sounded fantastic. After that, I realized that it was just that the reproduction I was hearing wasn't good enough. Last night for the first time I really enjoyed some non-live classical music. Will wonders never cease!
I read somewhere that you should use music that you are familiar with when listening for differences in equipment. I'm not sure why I chose to largely ignore this piece of good advice. I was listening to a few relatively new pieces at first, and I was thinking "well, this sounds really good but I don't really know if it is that much better than before." Things have been kind of hectic lately (moving) and I didn't get to put in a lot of listening until yesterday. On the very first song I put on that was really familiar to me, my mouth literally fell open - no shit. And it kept falling open song after song. I was always skeptical when people would say things like this - not so much now.
Anyway, I've rambled enough. Thanks again for the help.
P.S. James provided great professional service.
:thumb: Hypex
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I am very pleased that royal is happy with his new Hypex Ncore Stereo NC400.
For anyone who might be curious about Ncore reliability: After assembling several dozen NC400, the sum total service related problem was one Cableset that was apparently defective, the symptom being one of the wire broke loose from the terminal immediately after I twisted it the same number of twists as always. Hypex promptly shipped a replacement Cableset and all was fine.
I personally witnessed the following recently. Someone brought over two NC400 Bridged amps (1200W @ 2 Ohm, safe to 1 Ohm) and accidentally directly shorted the two amp's speaker output binding posts (also connected to speakers). One NC400 did not turn on, the other did turn on but cycled a click sound every three seconds till he shut it off. No fuse blew and both amps worked perfectly immediately after he fixed the speaker wiring error.
It would not be a surprise if the above described wiring error immediately caused one or both amps (non-Ncore) to suffer costly meltdown of the amp, speakers, or both.
One client had mono blocs, and one ran considerably hotter then the other. He eventually traced the problem back to a defective speaker crossover, which he fixed. Besides running warm, his NC400 never hiccuped.
Hypex NC400 and SMPS seem to be exceptionally well engineered and bulletproof. IIRC Bruno said after about 20 years the hottest running part, the large PS capacitor, might change its capacitance value (depending on the application), but performance might not be affected in any way. Replacing a PS capacitor after a 1/4 C seems like a reasonable service requirement.
NC400 burns 4.5Wpc while idling, less than a 5W night light.
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I drive my RM2s with a Yama P2500S stage amp. No fans. Low idle current. Quiet clean power. I suppose you folks think this is heresy, but I love the sound I get.
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I love the sound I get.
That's all that matters.
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I drive my RM2s with a Yama P2500S stage amp. No fans. Low idle current. Quiet clean power. I suppose you folks think this is heresy, but I love the sound I get.
I just auditioned an ADCOM GFA7607 amp with the RM2s. The sound is so much clearer and more detailed than the Yamaha, it is amazing.
I A/Bd the speakers with my non-audiophile friend and we both agreed, the difference is night and day!
Never again will I believe that "amps operating within their specifications sound the same". Not even close!