AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Vinyl Circle => Topic started by: geowak on 15 Jun 2014, 12:25 am
-
I use to have a Thorens TD320, way back in 1986. I gave it to my cousin when CDs became all the rage. Thinking about coming back to analog. Can anyone out there name a TT that made you CONVERT back to analog? I mean that really, really revealing TT that is just great? Thinking below 10K but really something between 1K to 5K.
Of course, I need to know the tonearm and cartridge that mates well with the TT.
-
I pretty much did the same thing and came back buying a nice Thorens TD124/SME 3009 Series 2 ( Paid $1200 ) and pretty much just cleaned/lubed and realigned it, built a better Plinth and found a older Shure Cartridge and purchased a new SAS Jico replacement Stylus and was hooked.....I tend to be less overwhelmed with the Vintage stuff and just love the old Thorens Turntables....Pretty straight forward for an old fart like me ( 68 years old ) . I would love to buy a VPI Classic 3 but for me the extra " Green " just does not make it worth the stretch..........Get something simple, cheap and easy to use, until you know for sure you want to go in that direction. Also allow yourself $500 in a cleaning machine...Cleaning is the biggest issue you will deal with if you plan on buying used Vinyl........Bottom line, try it and have fun.
-
I'll watch this thread with interest.
Maybe someone will recommend a tt that allows me to have every song in my library at the touch of a finger with my iphone. That might make me switch back to vinyl. :wink:
-
IME (recent), I found that the turntable and tonearm are a huge part of the analog chain, but that the cartridge and phono stage can have a bigger impact.
For what it is worth, my digital is a Meitner MA-1.
My analog is a VPI Classic 1, Dynavector 17D3, and Pass Labs XP-15. My analog sounds significantly better to me than the digital. I could go into all of the hyperbole, and nonsense phrases that we audiophiles use to describe the differences, but in the end the analog system just brings an extremely pure representation of the music that my digital system can not come close to approximating.
Back in 2009, I had a JA Michell Gyrodec. That was a solid table. I sold it when I thought I was done with vinyl. I came back to analog last year, and foolishly decided to go with the VPI classic after hearing people rave about it.
I like the classic, but I loved the Gyrodec. The build quality was excellent, and the overall look of the table was great. I had it fitted with a tecnoarm, and the sound was pretty great.
If I had a budget of 5K, and was not in any hurry, I would wait for a used gyrodec to come along. Match that with a SME tonearm like a 309, or if you have the big bucks, a V, and you'll have a solid table that is upgradable (orbe platter/motor), and a tonearm that the gyrodec was voiced for.
With that combo, you could likely use any cartridge/phono stage combination you could ever want and not have the table be completely outclassed.
-
I'll watch this thread with interest.
Maybe someone will recommend a tt that allows me to have every song in my library at the touch of a finger with my iphone. That might make me switch back to vinyl. :wink:
I think its safe to say, Timind, you rather miss the point. Nothing will make you invest in vinyl until you don't.
-
I've made some of these points before, in fact, I sound like a broken record.
Vinyl is not just about the sound. It's about the experience, the hunt for records with different covers. For first pressings. Best sounding versions. It's NOT about convenience, pushing a remote, bringing the music with you.
The original vinyl releases are often closest to the way the artist, producer and engineer wanted the record to sound. Subsequent digital releases often do not have access to the original master tapes. Often done with the differing technology of a particular era, different in the late 80's compared to the late 2000's.
And vinyl is not exclusive. I have CD's, too. Not everything is available on vinyl. And maybe some digital stuff is done better. But I don't really care, I'm having a ball and I have the best of both worlds.
Quite frankly, the more people stay OUT of vinyl, the more records I have to choose from!
Oh, I forgot...what was this thread about?
Paul
-
Hi all.
My Rega P3 turntable w/Exact mm cartridge/Bellari VP129 combo
will certainly not make me go back 100% to analog.
My Rega Apollo CD player to my ears sound better than analog,
more details, more dynamics, etc...
That's too bad, because I was born and raise with analog,
I love to cue down the tone arm onto the vinyl, but for now,
digital brings me more music enjoyment.
Maybe that will change, when I up-grade my Bellari VP129
to a new phono stage,
(Hagerman Bugle 2 or Vista)
and a PDR linear tone arm (That is on the way to Vietna)?
My analog set up is not hi-end, but is not bad either.
Guy 13
-
I never did get out of the vinyl business but around 2007 I bought a VPI Scout. About 2 years ago I installed an Ortofon 2M Black Cartridge and a Graham Slee ERA V phono Preamp and have been very happy. I think all of that would run about $3500.00 today.
Thorman is correct, a record cleaner is a must and should be added to the total cost.
Happy listening.
-
Hi all.
Stay with vinyl or go back to vinyl, you need to keep your vinyl in top shape.
Despite my modest 80 vinyl inventory, I bought a Spin Clean for 80 USD on Amazon and I was very happy with the results. All my vinyl some 45 years old and most 30 years old had never been cleaned/washed.
They were overdue, that's for sure.
Yes, if you already have or want to go with vinyl,
to me a vinyl washing machine is a must
and represent only a small fraction of the investment.
Guy 13
-
I heard this setup yesterday with a variety of speakers, sources and amplification. I was extremely impressed with the sound.
(http://www.needledoctor.com/Clearaudio-Performance-DC-Zoom.jpg)
http://www.needledoctor.com/Clearaudio-Performance-DC-Turntable-w-Verify-Tonearm - Clearaudio Performance DC
http://www.needledoctor.com/Clearaudio-Virtuoso-v2-Ebony-Phono-Cartridge - Clearaudio Virtuoso V2
With the money left over I'd invest in the Nitty Gritty Mini-Pro 1 cleaner (as other have mention a clean record is key to maximizing the enjoyment)
http://www.needledoctor.com/Nitty-Gritty-Mini-Pro-1-Automatic-Record-Cleaning-Machine
That puts you just over the $5K mark.
I've never been all that attracted to the lower end Clearaudio tables because of their IMO boring appearance. After hearing it I could easily overlook the appearance. I'd describe the sound as extremely accurate and revealing but still musical and enjoyable. There were times when I was in awe of the clarity but mostly I just sat and listened to the music which is exactly what I strive for with my own system. FWIW I'm using a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon that has been modified a bit to isolate the motor with the Ortofon 2m Blue cart. I use a highly modified Yaquin MS-22b tube phono stage. So modified that the circuit is nothing like the original aside from the fact that it is still RIAA. I'm very happy with it especially for the price I paid. I would never go only vinyl or or only digital though. I enjoy both formats for different reasons. I do however get more enjoyment from owning and caring for my vinyl collection, there's a certain romance that makes the hobby feel more like a hobby and less like a mental disorder. :o :lol:
-
Any number of used TTs and an inexpensive cartridge should fit the bill. I have several old tables that sound awesome compared to digital, like my Empire 598mkII, VPI-HW19jr (with AudioQuest PT-6 arm), a Technics SL1200MKII DD and a Sony PS-X7 just to name a few. I have an Audio Technica AT440MLa in all of them. Total cost is way under $1k, leaving you room for a phono preamp. For that I recommend the Emotiva XPS-1 for $150, or if you want to spend more money and not get much more, the iPhono preamp at $399.
-
You're not going to get anything decent for $1k, probably barely $5k will do (if you are talking table/arm/cart/pre). I would not even bother unless you are willing to spend the money to do it right. It's a huge amount of hassle for mediocre sound. Go all in or stay with digital.
-
You're not going to get anything decent for $1k, probably barely $5k will do (if you are talking table/arm/cart/pre). I would not even bother unless you are willing to spend the money to do it right. It's a huge amount of hassle for mediocre sound. Go all in or stay with digital.
+1.
A decent analog system would cost $4000-$5000. ($1000 phono stage+ $2000 table + $1000 cart + $600 record cleaner)
For a competent digital front end vs analog. It would cost almost the same amount of money. ($3000 dac+ $1500 streamer.)
Back to the question, I would vote for VPI scout 2 or a bit higher quality - Classic line- mate with Soundsmith Zephyr 2 cart and SDS asynchronous power supply. This set up would cost you around $4500-$5000 and it is clearly superior to most of the digital front end I have owned or listened to.
-
Any number of used TTs and an inexpensive cartridge should fit the bill. I have several old tables that sound awesome compared to digital, like my Empire 598mkII, VPI-HW19jr (with AudioQuest PT-6 arm), a Technics SL1200MKII DD and a Sony PS-X7 just to name a few. I have an Audio Technica AT440MLa in all of them. Total cost is way under $1k, leaving you room for a phono preamp. For that I recommend the Emotiva XPS-1 for $150, or if you want to spend more money and not get much more, the iPhono preamp at $399.
Couldnt agree more +1
I wonder if the guys that have $15K TT and $3K cart and $5K pre sit around and wonder why the $5K system guys even bother..... :roll:
-
I haven't heard all the competition in your price range but here goes; one of the contenders that should definitely be on your short list is the new Oracle Delphi (currently in its Mk VI iteration). It's super musical, reliable and awesome looking. Setting up these Oracles can be a challenge, as they're sprung, but if you have a local dealer who can do all the setup for you you'll be rewarded with a great, GREAT turntable.
http://www.oracle-audio.com/?action=produit_show&id=1
-
I wonder if the guys that have $15K TT and $3K cart and $5K pre sit around and wonder why the $5K system guys even bother..... :roll:
I'm sure they do ..... just like the guys that have $30K TT, $6K cart and $10K pre wonder why the $23K system guys even bother!
For that I recommend the Emotiva XPS-1 for $150, or if you want to spend more money and not get much more, the iPhono preamp at $399.
Would the extra $200 for the $599 AVA Vision Phono pre over the $400 iPhono pre you get you any better sound?
Steve
-
Well, I had a prototype of the Vision phono pre, along with the Emotiva and the iPhono. Overall, I liked the Emotiva better, but that is just my opinion.
I would just like to add that in any medium, there is and always will be the point of diminishing returns. There can be huge amounts of money spent with little if any measurable improvements over lesser tables. Right now, my Empire is king of the hill here. It easily dethrones digital easily, with great detail and low level resolution. Cymbals sound like cymbals, and the decay of the cymbal crash sounds correct. While vinyl at high playback levels can reveal its own flaws (pops, clicks), it can be mesmerizing with it's ability to get the listener involved in the music, and forget about the machinery.
There is one statement here that I will make. Any amount of money spent on high buck vinyl playback in the hands of the inexperienced or uneducated, will end up in shambles. Success comes from the knowledge of set up and system synergy. In other words, you simply can't buy turntable set up experience, you have to learn it. That is why my 40 year old Empire could easily trash a very expensive VPI in the hands of a novice.
This thread is a slippery slope and the outcome of buying a new (or used) table does not bring happiness alone. It must be learned............
-
No such TT exists. :lol:
-
In my experience with analog you live and die by the LP itself. No amount of money thrown at a table, arm, cart and phonostage can rescue a beat up, or poorly pressed LP. Only after making the commitment to buy wisely and give proper care afterwards should anything over a few hundred bucks be considered. Make the commitment however and man, the rewards can be darned great! The sky is the limit. Unfortunately, these days that applies to prices as well.
-
I think there are several options out there in your price range. VPI and Project are worth a look. The Sumiko Blue Point Special or Blackbird are great cartridges for under $1000. Sumiko has a package deal on a Project 10.1 or an Xtension 10 with the Blackbird for under $4,000. Includes tone arm. I had a Project Perspective with the Blackbird before I went all-in with an SME 20/2, IV.Vi arm, Lyra Skala cartridge and the Zesto Andros phono stage. The Perspex and Blue Point Special cartridge can be had for under $2,000. I agree with those who recommend investing in a vacuum record cleaning machine.
-
....a Technics SL1200MKII DD ...
:lol: :lol: sorry, that doesn't wash...
-
No such TT exists. :lol:
Neither does a digital audiophile……... :icon_twisted:
-
I would not spend a lot on the cart. You would be amazed/shocked how much performance you can get out of a cheap cart if you have the right supporting equipment. If you have a limited budget, don't spend it on the one piece that is a wear item.
-
:lol: :lol: sorry, that doesn't wash...
You don't have a clue....
-
You don't have a clue....
You know, I'm actually very familiar with that turntable, and even some with different tonearms grafted on. No matter, you like what you like, but I'd be quite surprised if any LP playback system involving a Technics SL1200II convinced anyone with a decent CD player, much less any hires digital playback, to get interested in LPs.
-
Once again, fellow AC members have pitched in to give insight and education. I thank you. There are many great recommendations here, not to mention all the tips, experience and wisdom on the analog side. I have some research to do now. The dealer I have here in Ohio will let me test drive a Well Tempered turntable, or a Shindo Garrard (bigger bucks). But of course, I will need an attempt? to listen to as many as I can. I don't know what I will budget, but I am sure I can find one I like, by auditioning many of the ones listed here.
BTW what kind of budget would I need for a phono preamp? I have one now, but's it's I think it will be the weak link in the chain. I imagine it's lower end, since it's built into my preamp. I am leaning toward a used Parasound JC3.
-
I think the Shindo Player System is around $30k.
You should really look into the Allnic 1201 phono pre.
-
I think the Shindo Player System is around $30k.
You should really look into the Allnic 1201 phono pre.
Yes that TT is really outside my budget, and he does not sell many of them. The WTL models are moving quickly from his shop.
-
Three that made Stereophile's best list that retail for under 1.5k and include tonearms are the VPI Traveler, the Clearaudio Concept, and the Rega 3. That's where I'd be looking. Then there is the expense of a phono cartridge. An affordable phono pre is the Bugle 2 from Hagtech for $189.00 or the Vista for another hundred. Both are excellent in my experience if an outboard phono pre is needed.
-
I went with a VPI HW19 Mk IV, with a good Wall Mount and am very happy with the results.
I think the Wall Mount (on an exterior wall) plays a large part in the sound. I don't have anything to back up that claim however. I know my 7 year old can jump up and down and it doesn't bother it.
-
I started back in with a vintage Rotel. Not good. Saved up and bought a Sota Comet III when they were new and $300 less than today. That did it for me. It is really quiet, doesn’t excite the sound, and with a few mods remains the best source in my system.
-
Well, SOTA has large pedigree. A pal in the audio society I belong to has a top of the line SOTA from 10 years ago I'm guessing with a linear tracking air bearing arm and a very expensive Lyra Titan One. I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt cause he could have anything he wants and he has a SOTA.
-
$30K for a turntable is war too rich for my blood, but in my music system (Plinius pre, Plinius SA100 Mark III power amp, Joseph Audio speakers, Cardas Gold Gross speaker wire, Au24 power cables, Theta Digital CD Player), I use a Music Hall 5.1 for my vinyl. very nice and extremely reasonably priced at <$1,000. All my vinyl is meticulously cleaned with a VPI 16.5 record cleaning machine to keep them pristine.
-
One of if not the best TT i have ever heard was a SOTA with a linear tracking airbearing arm and at that time an Alpha genesis cartridge . The Sota and that arm combination is very hard to beat, excellent really...
-
I have the SOTA with the ET-2 linear arm and a Dynavector cart. Love it!
Bought the TT used nearly 30 years ago, replaced the motor and bearing a few years back. Basic SOTAs seem to go reasonable but without the original box ares a bitch to ship.
-
I almost doubt that a "digital audiophile" who's ever had a TT system is necessarily "converting back" regardless of the sound quality, mostly for reasons of convenience. Even with a good TT system, you have the issue of LP maintenance, listening to 30 minutes max at a time before having to get up, dealing with perishable stylus and the risk / fear of something getting easily damaged or knocked out of optimum placement. All that's mainly ok if you listen only occasionally or for 1-2 albums per sitting, but can be more of a hassle if you either listen for a lot longer, or frequently only have sporadic sub 1hr listening opportunities.
Nonetheless, with respect to sound quality, I would agree with others that for the most part it takes a minimum investment of $2 - 4K ($2K being used / demo ; $4k being new / preferable) before you start to get a TT system that can do some of the magic that only the very best digital can. That's what it took for me : a VPI Traveler (demo), Ortofon Rondo Bronze (used), Sonic Frontiers SFP1 Signature tube phono preamp (used), for about a total of $2k (VPI record cleaner, interconnects etc not included).
These days, I'd start with a Scout 1.1 ($1995) as the VPI Traveler needs to be fixed back to the quality of the first gen or better. I.e. a better motor and improving the finish (glossy vs pebbled and other things). The extra $500 is money well spent on a better motor, arm, and platter.
The Soundsmith Zephry Mk II at $1,200 retail is also fantastic. I've been demoing this combo lately and it really does most everything well and can give you many years of happy use.
Soundsmith and others have good phono preamps around the $500 mark.
So total investment about $3,700 (sans RCM).
You could do a Traveler (when they fix it) + a Ortofon 2M Black or Soundsmith Carmen for about $2K - 2,200 (a grand less new), but for a new TT / cartridge combo, that would probably be for a new TT / cart combo the minimum you'd want to do for a high end digital source equal or beating TT system. You might be able to get away with spending $500 less if you chose a used VPI HW19 + used cartridge.
-
I was a digital only guy for a long time. I'd like to think that my digital wasn't bad at all. I was using a Tascam Pro unit as transport into a Levinson DAC via AES/EBU. Today I still listen to many CDs, am also into Hi-Rez and also deeeeeeeep into LP. Call me format agnostic. When fortunate enough to have long stretches of time for myself and only myself, I've gone on listening binges over 10 hours many times, most of which is LP. First table upon returning to LP was a VPI Aries 2 with a JMW arm and a Clearaudio Strad. Phonostage was a BAT VK-P10 Super Pack.
At the moment I feel I am very satisfied with all formats. There is a time and place for each as far as I'm concerned. The main issue for me is what I actually have the music I want to listen to is in. I even listen to MP3 if that's all I can get it in. Okay, call me a format agnostic music addict.
-
In my case it was a Well Tempered Labs Classic, an Ortofon 2M Black cartridge and a Jolida JD9 phono stage.
Good bye, CDs!
-
The question is what reference points the op has. If its the vague memory of a Thorens 20 years go then any one of the lesser ideas might just floor the jaw. I gave up a refined TT many years ago and my latest foray into vinyl was a big surprise in quality that I had not expected. My digital reference point was low. Geowak may have great digital reference but many would say only the best digital comes close to vinyl but still cant touch it sonically.
I'm just saying maybe $5k to $10k might even be overkill. $2 k done right per Wayner may be plenty. It's all bullshit anyway until the needle hits the groove.
-
I'm just saying maybe $5k to $10k might even be overkill. $2 k done right per Wayner may be plenty. It's all bullshit anyway until the needle hits the groove.
+1! :thumb:
-
It's fun to spend someone else's money. There is no way you have to spend 5-10k.
I would love to spend that kind of $$. Not possible.
I've been through a lot of stuff here and if you shop smart you can do it for around 2K+ easily as Wayner said.
Setup and the rest of the system does matter though.
I just had a guy here tell me "he has never heard anything like that in his life !"
He was not necessarily a novice.
The new Merrill table designed after the AR/Heirloom , VPI Traveler, Rega P5 and up, AR ES1, Empire's, Systemdek XXII, VPI HW19 MKIII and up, even the Junior all can be had reasonable and would be very very good. All sound different also. I never heard a Tech 1200 here so no comment on that, but I could get any one of the mentioned decks to sound superb.
Choose Cartridge and Phono carefully and you are good to go. There are tons of choices used.
Can you tell I like used? I'll take someone else's throw-a ways every time.
The disclaimer is: this is my opinion no arguments.
The whole trick is to get the best possible sound for the least amount of money. Right?
You can get a lot of music for the remainder 3k.
The original question is not easy to answer, too many variables in the software between CD and vinyl.
Good and bad in both formats.
-
This thread has lots of good stuff and different ideas. That is good. If you have the doe-ray-me, go for it. I'd like to have one new TT before I kick the bucket, but I find that there is no one perfect table. They all have strengths and weaknesses. Tweaking tables has become a ritual here, at my house. The Technics needs different mats, and a little damping on the tonearm. The Empire's anti-skate spring is kind of stretched, but repositioning the arm helped that problem out. My VPI Hw-19jr has the least amount of issues, tho I do have a soft mat on top of the plastic platter.
Oddly enough, the largest change to my turntables sound was getting a different power amp. I picked up a Sony TA-N55ES (110 WRMS/channel) and the world completely changed. Running one of my AVA Insight+ pres into that and powering my modded Dynaco A25XLs with the Sony is just simply unbelievable.
I have to ask myself over and over again, what the hell is in those grooves, anyway? Can there be that much detail? The answer is YES!!!!! This is what makes playing records fun, even if its a PITA to get up once in a while and flip the record (we play both sides (or all sides)) of a record here. Besides, the beer refrigerator is in the other room. :)
-
My approach would be to just buy almost any decent TT and live with it for a little while. Play around with a stylus or a mat or a support. Then buy another TT and compare. I somehow need to have two, Wayner needs to have six or more. You can upgrade, side-grade, downgrade, fool around and have fun. Buy and sell it on this forum and you'll be getting and giving good deals all around.
Paul
-
So, Orthobiz, how did Dumb and Dumber work out the other night? :duh:
Maybe they should have kept them in jail for their own good……...
-
I use to have a Thorens TD320, way back in 1986. I gave it to my cousin when CDs became all the rage. Thinking about coming back to analog. Can anyone out there name a TT that made you CONVERT back to analog? I mean that really, really revealing TT that is just great? Thinking below 10K but really something between 1K to 5K.
Of course, I need to know the tonearm and cartridge that mates well with the TT.
I never left analog, but it became a LOT more interesting when I bought a Well Tempered Amadeus. The arm is included and it's a shade under 3K total. I use a Denon 103R/ Auditorium 23 SUT, but there are many good cartridge choices for this arm. If you want to skip low output MC's, consider the Dynavector 20XH for instance.
-
Hi Guys,
I've been into to listening to recorded music for over thirties years. Mom played opera on a simple "record player" before we went to sleep almost every night. Madam butterfly, La boheme', Pagliacci, Carmen, etc. When I was 14 I built a full stereo with an Audiovox cassette player on my ten speed bike powered by a motorcycle battery. Boz Scaggs, Boston... I was in heaven. Since then I've owned or built lots of stuff and in the last few years have owned several turntables; Systemdek, a modified B&O TX with MM2 and hardwired with Cardas. Even an old, wonderful sounding Gerard. I've owned some incredible digital from Camelot technology, MSB, Micromega, Benchmark even a great sounding DAC by Van Alstine. And lately listen to just about every format From high res 32 bit and beyond to budget vinyl and cost no object vinyl and many great sounding budget and beyond digital rigs.
The truth is for any seasoned (honest) Audiophile there is NO debate! The best "format" for playback is based on the links in the chain. You can be moved to tears by rich, detailed, expansive realism by ANY format. I own probably 2+ terabytes of wav, flac and higher res files. Many of the 16/44 stuff sounds better than the high res. It still comes down to studio recording choices, versions, remaster quality etc. The joy of music is ALL that matters. How you get there is up to your awareness and exposure. I might play a record because I feel like it. I certainly don't play files because of convenience. I play whatever format music to have an immersive musical experience. I can still play certain well recorded cassettes (1970's 'Folgers Consort') on a 700II Nakamichi with Grados ...and it is eerie realistic. Often times you may have a certain special recording in a certain format only. The truth is more music is available in 16/44 than any other format. And luckily there are "budget" products out there to help make the most of that fact. A DAC I've heard lately for very cheap was the $600. tubed Jolida. A friend put better tubes in and is using the very high value Zentara Reference digital rca and it sounds astonishingly good. Dynamic, clear, and very dimensional and palpable, NATURAL.
So, JUST SAY NO to this artless, fruitless, tired and proven ridiculous debate and just play your records, cue up your files, put on a tape or go listen to live music in the park this summer.
We are blessed to even have hearing (many don't) with so many ways to enjoy music.
I better sign off now before I start really preaching :)
I hope this helps some younger audiophiles and just moves us all to keep sharing the value of properly reproduced music.
Cheers
-
You know, I'm actually very familiar with that turntable, and even some with different tonearms grafted on. No matter, you like what you like, but I'd be quite surprised if any LP playback system involving a Technics SL1200II convinced anyone with a decent CD player, much less any hires digital playback, to get interested in LPs.
again, as Wayner pointed out…….. you have not a clue…….
-
Actually, when I said that there is more music available on 16/44 I was obviously referring to the last thirty years.
With more and more new vinyl releases and the discovery of old, impossible to find records its necessary to have a great turntable.
-
…….but I'd be quite surprised if any LP playback system involving a Technics SL1200II convinced anyone……………...to get interested in LPs.
Careful there; one of the things about this hobby is that we get surprised a lot. 8)
-
again, as Wayner pointed out…….. you have not a clue…….
Yeah, whatever. FWIW, my first "hifi" speakers were those Dynaco A25's, back in 1970, with an AR table, ADC XLM cartridge, PAS 3 preamp and Stereo 70 amp. No, I don't miss it :lol:
-
Rbbrt you are not even running a table!?
I would not think of starting an argument.
-
Yeah, whatever. FWIW, my first "hifi" speakers were those Dynaco A25's, back in 1970, with an AR table, ADC XLM cartridge, PAS 3 preamp and Stereo 70 amp. No, I don't miss it :lol:
Lately, I try to avoid threads that attract trolls, iconoclasts, and those with an agenda. Digital vs. analog seems to bring out the worst in people, and I can't say I'm immune. With that said, I'm wondering why you're participating here Rbbert. Is the sole purpose one-upmanship, to point out Wayner's lack of high quality equipment? Maybe I missed it, but that seems to be your only contribution.
I wonder how Wayner's MODIFIED A25s sound. Have you ever heard them? Either have I. I seem to recall his owning other speakers, maybe Paradigm and Martin Logan electrostatics?
So what's your point Rbbert, the Technics 1200 isn't worthy? Is that it?
BTW, welcome to Vinyl Circle.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=48064)
Once a Stereo 70
There is one statement here that I will make. Any amount of money spent on high buck vinyl playback in the hands of the inexperienced or uneducated, will end up in shambles. Success comes from the knowledge of set up and system synergy. In other words, you simply can't buy turntable set up experience, you have to learn it. That is why my 40 year old Empire could easily trash a very expensive VPI in the hands of a novice.
This thread is a slippery slope and the outcome of buying a new (or used) table does not bring happiness alone. It must be learned............
+1
neo
-
Rbbrt you are not even running a table!?
I would not think of starting an argument.
I played LP's until 2002, often with near SOTA gear (e.g. LP12, SME arm and Dynavector, Grado and Denon cartridges, Magnepan Unitrac arm with Shure V15V and Grado Signature) and still hear decent or better LP setups a few times a year, and that doesn't count the various SL1200II setups my son and many of his friends have (which I don't consider decent). I haven't heard anything to make me regret giving up LP's, so actually I may have more useful opinions to contribute to this thread than many of you.
I'm with those who are looking at $6k or more (new; maybe half that used) needed to provide a reasonable alternative listening experience to someone who has and likes excellent digital playback.
-
I've been dragging my feet on this but I'm pretty sure the Townsend Rock is the table that's going to bring me back to analog, just because it's so damn good. Lots of choices to be sure...but I just can't count out the Rock.
-
I've been dragging my feet on this but I'm pretty sure the Townsend Rock is the table that's going to bring me back to analog, just because it's so damn good. Lots of choices to be sure...but I just can't count out the Rock.
Solid choice....no pun intended.
-
Thank you Neo, I have a new found respect for you.
This is what its all about for me:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=101102)
In the front row is Lone Wolf, Twitch, me and Ed Cramer. These are people that I met once, but have a bond to them that I will take to my grave. This is what the AC is all about. We might dissagree now and then, but in the end, its about the music, the equipment we use to get at the music, and most importantly, our friends..........
(RMAF, I believe 2009)
-
...This is what the AC is all about. We might dissagree now and then, but in the end, its about the music, the equipment we use to get at the music, and most importantly, our friends..........
+1 :thumb:
-
Thank you Neo, I have a new found respect for you.
This is what its all about for me:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=101102)
In the front row is Lone Wolf, Twitch, me and Ed Cramer. These are people that I met once, but have a bond to them that I will take to my grave. This is what the AC is all about. We might dissagree now and then, but in the end, its about the music, the equipment we use to get at the music, and most importantly, our friends..........
(RMAF, I believe 2009)
Well said, indeed..... on this I could not agree more. Once again, thanks to all for all the analog tips. Please keep them coming... in an open forum with respect for all.
-
I only have one beef with this thread, that somehow one needs to be a mechanical engineer to set up a turntable. Horse hockey. It's simply not that difficult, and to imply anything else is not fair to one who wants to enter the hobby.
Doc
-
I only have one beef with this thread, that somehow one needs to be a mechanical engineer to set up a turntable. Horse hockey. It's simply not that difficult, and to imply anything else is not fair to one who wants to enter the hobby.
Doc
What do you think of Andre Jenning's article in the latest TAS?
-
I've been dragging my feet on this but I'm pretty sure the Townsend Rock is the table that's going to bring me back to analog, just because it's so damn good. Lots of choices to be sure...but I just can't count out the Rock.
A table that is small but performs above its weight class. It could be easier to level and the clamp easier to use but If you are into a full, deep sound reminiscent of TD124s and the like, it is definitely a contender. That front trough thing really works. It is a pedestrian table when it is not in use.
-
What do you think of Andre Jenning's article in the latest TAS?
Haven't read it yet. It's on the night stand. I'll get to it by and by. I do recommend J. Gordon Holt's article on turntable set up, published many years ago. It's available on Sterophile's web site. Just as an aside, oddly I find leveling the damn things the most difficult part.
Doc
-
I can't comprehend that article. I don't even understand how it's possible to angle your cart to where the back side of the stylus is at a right angle with the record groove let alone why. My tonearm post can't even get that high.
DETAIL has become something of an obsession with some guys in my audio club. Man, I've heard it like I never thought possible and it's a distraction to me, not an enhancement. It calls attention to itself. And I'm in an minority, possibly of one, when it comes to volume setting. It is of less interest to me to hear what the conductor or the microphone might have heard/captured (depending on how the mike or mikes are placed) than what I have heard sitting in an audience. You only have so much space in the front end of your room. Here . . I wrote this to members of my club:
"One man’s opinion. Thirty years ago- bloody geez, longer than that- I listened to a lot of live music in places like The Jazz Workshop and Both/And in San Francisco, in music halls on Geary St and in SF Symphony Hall, even The Matrix and The Fillmore. The very first multi rock band concert was held at a domed arena near Fisherman’s Wharf, not The Fillmore nor the Carousel Ballroom, and I was a guest of The Family Dog, the promoter. Once, I was seated so close to the stage in The Jazz Workshop I could have reached out and touched the bell of Coltrane’s tenor had I wanted to, and once on the very last row of the third balcony for Andres Segovia on Geary St. tho that didn’t stop the lady sitting next to me from sobbing, bless her heart. It was that concert that first made me interested in being able to re-produce the event as tho I was there. Well, save for the aforementioned lady, but, indeed, for the sound of Segovia’s acoustic guitar in that very spacious place.
Listening mostly to acoustic music recorded on location these days, and that would include some jazz recordings, and because I know how music can sound in about any setting and seat, I make judicious use of my volume control and I am about to tell you why. My speakers are set up so that they are equidistant from the side walls of my room and out a generous ways from the wall behind them, too. This is so reflection of waveforms by my room’s surfaces are not arriving so quickly or out of sync as to contribute anything superfluous or time skewed from my recordings. Just what’s happening as if I were onsite bout mid hall. Season ticket holders make it so.
Let’s take a famous recording like Harry Belafonte at Carnegie Hall. This is a famous recording for a reason. For the sake of making what I am trying to communicate understood, work with me here. At loud volume, Belafonte will dominate the space between your speakers. His image will be blown up past the point of how you would have heard him if you were seated on the front row and past the point where other things informative won’t suffer. There is a reason this is such a famous recording more than for the music. It is because of transparency to and intimacy of the EVENT. Conscious use of your volume control is your ticket to admission.
In some cases a ticket isn’t warranted. I listen to popular music. I like many studio made recordings. A fellow HAS member with a rather exceptional system played Paul Simon’s Graceland for me this weekend at pretty high volume. Have mercy, miss Percy . . It was freakin sensational!! Music from the flick Cat People, too, which I also have and for the same reason.
Not the same thing, however. Off now to listen to some stuff sung in Latin from the 14th century or thereabouts. I will be immersed in the place/space and intimate with the singers as tho I were sitting in a pew- which would entail dialing in ye olde volume control. Try it for yourself."
I reckon you listeners who listen to lots of classical music (made on location, generally) know or can imagine what I'm talking about. I'll take the volume enhanced immediacy of punk bands recording in the 80's over stylized recordings like those of Steely Dan- who comes to mind- tho I DO like the group and their music. In this case, who cares about realistic perspective. It's supposed to be in your face. I just have this thing for in-person realism and I can't tell you the last time I was sitting where any microphone was standing. Close, on occasion.
Furthermore, my detail addicted mates seldom change their volume control. But, dude, DO they have systems. One fellow has four vintage tube amps with no pre, just an uber expensive volume control with a 2.5 thousand buck K&K phone amp. He's comin around, tho.
I think my novelty is becoming a little credulous.
Love photos (bet I'm not alone). Hope you guys keep it up. Thanks for indulging my rant.
-
The next morning. Man, I don't know what made me post that under this topic other than it's a peeve of mine and I've been wanting to "Say it loud- Say it proud" somewhere. OCD, maybe. Too much vino. I ought to see a doctor. Didn't think it warranted a topic of its own :dunno:.
-
Tell us what wine you drank and we'll forgive all Jim :lol:
-
Hey Jim, I read your article (rant) last night with interest but I was waiting for the part about a turntable as I read it.. What kind of vino was that exactly? I might want to pick some of it up.
Good article though, I understand where your coming from..
-
"In vino et veritas"
Doc
-
Thanks, Jack. Thanks, Brooklyn, Doc. Vinyl is what I mostly play cause my records outnumber my disc's a whole lot and cause music sounds more becoming to me in several ways. Not knocking digital. My dig front end would be considered modest and dated in present company. Of course, my analog front end IS dated.
Actually, I was drinking 16oz cans of whatever was on sale at the store. Didn't want to seem anymore boorish than I naturally can be so I embellished a hair. I do drink wine but hang on to it for more special occasions. Got a few nice Cabs just sitting around if ever any you cats might care to stop by.
-
I thought it was a helluva good post, JG. Your description of Belafonte at Carnegie was spot on, and why we hang on to the 12" platters.
It's not about the TTs, as many will do well. It's about delivery of real life as close as we can get it.
BTW, what's the address of said Cabs? I don't drink, but for your system played loud, a nice cabernet, and Harry B. I might just make an exception. :thumb:
-
I'm not convinced that the table itself makes that much of a difference. How many of you can honestly say--all else being equal in the system, the arm, cartridge, phono section etc--you've heard a significant difference merely on account of switching out the turntable alone?
My contention is most people, when they change tables, this includes the arm and in some cases the cartridge too. When I replaced my Rega Planner 2 with an Oracle Delphi, I didn't hear that much of a difference, and AFAIK that difference may have well been attributed to set up. On the other hand, when I upgraded my arm, the difference was profound. Night and day.
In its most simplest terms, the turntable spins the record. The cartridge mounted to the arm tracks the groove and converts the mechanical energy into electrical. This is where the magic begins. In order for the cartridge to do that as best as it possibly can, everything depends on the arm. The materials it is made of and how unyielding it is to vibration. The more inert, the better. This is why even the materials it is made of come into play.
Back in the day, two of the most highly acclaimed tone arms were the Alphason HR-100S and the Syrinx PU-3. When I replaced the Alphason with the Syrinx the difference (disappointment) was far greater than the improvement made by the Oracle in lieu of the Rega. Titanium vs plastic, I should have known better. But this is what happens when you read audio rags too much.
The point is, the relationship between the arm and cartridge is of far greater consequence than the table itself. If I was looking to get back into vinyl, I'd buy the best arm and cartridge I could afford and worry less about the table. Just make sure everything is set up right or it will all be for nothing.
-
I'm not convinced that the table itself makes that much of a difference. How many of you can honestly say--all else being equal in the system, the arm, cartridge, phono section etc--you've heard a significant difference merely on account of switching out the turntable alone?
My contention is most people, when they change tables, this includes the arm and in some cases the cartridge too. When I replaced my Rega Planner 2 with an Oracle Delphi, I didn't hear that much of a difference, and AFAIK that difference may have well been attributed to set up. On the other hand, when I upgraded my arm, the difference was profound. Night and day.
In its most simplest terms, the turntable spins the record. The cartridge mounted to the arm tracks the groove and converts the mechanical energy into electrical. This is where the magic begins. In order for the cartridge to do that as best as it possibly can, everything depends on the arm. The materials it is made of and how unyielding it is to vibration. The more inert, the better. This is why even the materials it is made of come into play.
Back in the day, two of the most highly acclaimed tone arms were the Alphason HR-100S and the Syrinx PU-3. When I replaced the Alphason with the Syrinx the difference (disappointment) was far greater than the improvement made by the Oracle in lieu of the Rega. Titanium vs plastic, I should have known better. But this is what happens when you read audio rags too much.
The point is, the relationship between the arm and cartridge is of far greater consequence than the table itself. If I was looking to get back into vinyl, I'd buy the best arm and cartridge I could afford and worry less about the table. Just make sure everything is set up right or it will all be for nothing.
Seems logical based on your experience, but it isn't true. Sometimes you make an unintended sideways move, or even have things go downhill, but it ain't necessarily so. I think you must consider the entire record player as a system and it's hard to quantify the importance of individual parts. Phono stage must be considered as well.
I rank the table as the most important part, which is not to say it will sound good with a second rate arm and cart. Switch your arm/cart from an inexpensive mass market table with light platter, to a well made expensive table with quality bearings, good speed stability and heavy platter and you'll hear a dramatic difference. Because a switch like this is somewhat unusual (mass market decks have dedicated arms) you don't think of it in such terms. A table like a Linn Basic or Revolver with a basic arm will be more improved by switching to an LP12, than an Ittock. I think the same can be said for a Thorens 125 to a 124, to cite a couple of examples.
neo
-
I have never upgraded a tonearm alone but many years ago I had one of the economy model Thorens turntables, the base was made of plastic, back then my only music source was vinyl.
I stepped up to an Ariston table with a Grace 707 MII arm and I believe a Denon low output MC cartridge set up by a local dealer. Out of everything I changed in my system up until that point, amps, preamps, etc, I would have never thought up to that point that a complete quality turntable/cartridge could have made the biggest difference in sound in my audio system.
Lesson learned.
-
I use to have a Thorens TD320, way back in 1986. I gave it to my cousin when CDs became all the rage. Thinking about coming back to analog. Can anyone out there name a TT that made you CONVERT back to analog? I mean that really, really revealing TT that is just great? Thinking below 10K but really something between 1K to 5K.
Of course, I need to know the tonearm and cartridge that mates well with the TT.
I have been an audio dealer since the 60s. Sold and set up tables for 50 years. Bought one of the "impressive wedding cake sized 50 lb platter fat-ass*d super-tables" that Mikey Fremer raves about. It was cr*p
My personal under $5K table set up is now and forevermore shall be a Technics SL1210-5MG with a KAB oil bath tonearm upgrade, extra balancing weights on the back (made from some foreign coins with a hole in the center) extra weight on the headshell, a Denon DL103, some K&K moving coil output transformers (totally adjustable for impedance, load, capacitance and output) a RM-9 tube phono pre from Jolida (fully adjustable with impedance, capacitance and output drive).
The table easily pulls the extra drag of a heavy weight classic moving coil WITHOUT any wow and flutter. Unlike the ten thousand dollar mega table I was so happy to trash...
The Denon DL103 cartridge is a total audio classic and has a cult following. It really sings IF YOU SET IT UP CORRECTLY WITH TRANSFORMER AND PHONO PRE...and an arm which is heavy in weight (gives the cart something to push against) and tuned to have its resonance in the 9 to 11 HZ range...
Overall this is the finest audio source I have ever heard pound for pound and dollar for dollar. Very "alive" clear, "you are THERE," and extremely SATISFYING to listen to music through. Things sound REAL.
I have ten grand in my DAC and this under 3K vinyl rig is its equal---in a vinyl sort of way. It trades the silence and clarity of digital for near silence but greater "air" and believability. Vinyl is just plain---well, MAGIC.
But you have to have a turntable phono cartridge setup that is hitting HARD on all eight cylinders---proper electrical matching of every parameter is up to YOU with a turntable. Unless you buy something put together by the factory---you NEED to know how to get an energy match out of the pieces---and you have to do it all by yourself.
Frankly I could almost live without the hassle. Until I drop that needle and the magic happens. Every record I own. Every time.
What a hobby.
-
I'm not convinced that the table itself makes that much of a difference. How many of you can honestly say--all else being equal in the system, the arm, cartridge, phono section etc--you've heard a significant difference merely on account of switching out the turntable alone?
My contention is most people, when they change tables, this includes the arm and in some cases the cartridge too. When I replaced my Rega Planner 2 with an Oracle Delphi, I didn't hear that much of a difference, and AFAIK that difference may have well been attributed to set up. On the other hand, when I upgraded my arm, the difference was profound. Night and day.
In its most simplest terms, the turntable spins the record. The cartridge mounted to the arm tracks the groove and converts the mechanical energy into electrical. This is where the magic begins. In order for the cartridge to do that as best as it possibly can, everything depends on the arm. The materials it is made of and how unyielding it is to vibration. The more inert, the better. This is why even the materials it is made of come into play.
Back in the day, two of the most highly acclaimed tone arms were the Alphason HR-100S and the Syrinx PU-3. When I replaced the Alphason with the Syrinx the difference (disappointment) was far greater than the improvement made by the Oracle in lieu of the Rega. Titanium vs plastic, I should have known better. But this is what happens when you read audio rags too much.
The point is, the relationship between the arm and cartridge is of far greater consequence than the table itself. If I was looking to get back into vinyl, I'd buy the best arm and cartridge I could afford and worry less about the table. Just make sure everything is set up right or it will all be for nothing.
My phantom 2, XV-1s, Koetsu Jade, Lamm LP2 has been used with identical set up parameters on my VPI HRX, TW AC3 and now Air Force One. Not only are the three different, The HRX was different when using the acrylic platter vs the Aluminum Super Platter, The TW sounded different when the Millennium mat was used carbon fiber up, reversed or not used at all. The Air Force One also different with the Duralumin upper platter or Stainless Steel. The Air Force One has the greatest dynamic range being so quiet. It is isolated so well that you can tap on the record while it is playing and not hear any thuds coming out of the loudspeaker. Sounds impossible I know, but it's true.
-
Aw, man, you cats are alright I don't care what anybody says!
-
I thought it was a helluva good post, JG. Your description of Belafonte at Carnegie was spot on, and why we hang on to the 12" platters.
It's not about the TTs, as many will do well. It's about delivery of real life as close as we can get it.
BTW, what's the address of said Cabs? I don't drink, but for your system played loud, a nice cabernet, and Harry B. I might just make an exception. :thumb:
Well, Brick, I wish I could say I have some 80's Silver Oaks but I drank em all. My brother-in-law has a couple dozen cause I turned him on to them not to mention their unique and wonderful flavor, but he never offers to open one. Hell with being passive, I gonna put his feet to the fire next time I'm over and I'm not waiting til Christmas neither, tho my chances would probably be better. As I don't have one to look at, I can't be really sure if they were 80's or 70's. Whichever one put them on the map is what.
I gots some Chilean cabs I got turned onto in a trendy café in SF in November. Sumbitches are pretty good, too. They're just sitting around til the right occasion.
-
Thank you Neo, I have a new found respect for you.
This is what its all about for me:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=101102)
In the front row is Lone Wolf, Twitch, me and Ed Cramer. These are people that I met once, but have a bond to them that I will take to my grave. This is what the AC is all about. We might dissagree now and then, but in the end, its about the music, the equipment we use to get at the music, and most importantly, our friends..........
(RMAF, I believe 2009)
Wayner, 2009 it was, great time, with a good group of guys for sure (the back two were fellow members from the Martin Logan group, Wayne and Steve)
While I'm too old to argue the analog / digital debate (I actually enjoy both), with my age comes the wisdom that knows both can be fully enjoyed and appreciated !
Dave
-
Lonewolfny. Wish that cat would drop in and say hey. That boy was my mentor when I first got on to AC- maybe yours, too- and I still need him from time to time. If I didn't say, I didn't, my turntable is an old and massive Micro Seiki BL91 with a Jelco 10" arm and an original Koetsu Black MC bought new in the 80's, I think. I had a much most recent Black Gold Line until I knocked off the stylus bout two weeks ago. When I put the original back in it sounded slower and duller. After about a day, the comparison faded away and I began to care less and less. It sounds sumptuously good. I will send off my newer one to Soundsmith soon to get the stylus replaced. I DO miss its better articulation and spaciousness.
-
Been trying to get through a look at all the TT's suggested here. Some are older models, they would be harder to track down and even harder still to listen to these. The VPI Classic three is starting to look like a strong choice.
-
Been trying to get through a look at all the TT's suggested here. Some are older models, they would be harder to track down and even harder still to listen to these. The VPI Classic three is starting to look like a strong choice.
It's a strong choice even for someone with a higher budget.
*I am not connected in any way to VPI
-
The better question might be, what vinyl album would change a vinyl-hater's opinion of the "superiority" of CDs?
For my wife it was Enya on LP vs. CD, on DQ-10s, an old SOTA TT with a Sumiko Blue Point Special.
-
A very fine choice from all I've been able to read. I had DQ10's some years back. Physically time aligned drivers on individual baffles no bigger than they had to be accept for the enclosed 10" bass driver. Very intimate listening experience t'was. Ran em with some Kenwood LO7 150w mono amps.
-
For me, there isn't a turntable that will get me back to vinyl. It's just not happening. Once I could hear Beethoven's 6th Symphony on CD, I was hooked and this was in the spring of 1984. No snap, crackle, pop or hiss. No skipping. Nothing but the orchestra.
I've got a direct drive turntable up in the attic. I haven't thought about getting it down and doing anything with it in at least 10 years.
If I did, I'd need to get a stylus for the Ortofon OM-10 cartridge that's in it.
I respect all of you that enjoy vinyl. I'm glad you do, but I'm really, REALLY, happy with my current setup. Could I improve my system? Absolutely! But, it would take a different pre-amp and 2 new main speakers and subwoofers. I do know what my "audio nirvana" system is, I'm just not there yet, but I'm close.
HsvHeelFan
-
For me, there isn't a turntable that will get me back to vinyl. It's just not happening. Once I could hear Beethoven's 6th Symphony on CD, I was hooked and this was in the spring of 1984. No snap, crackle, pop or hiss. No skipping. Nothing but the orchestra.
HsvHeelFan
Nothing but the orchestra? Wait 'til you hear a Reiner shaded dog on a good system. In the 80s I read all the vinyl reviews in TAS and started buying used Shaded Dogs and Mercury Living Presence left and right. Was never really impressed with them until Scott F. dialed in my TT, even through a $100 Project phono preamp.
Now THAT's an orchestra! :thumb:
I DO have some great CDs. BTW. :)
-
Been trying to get through a look at all the TT's suggested here. Some are older models, they would be harder to track down and even harder still to listen to these. The VPI Classic three is starting to look like a strong choice.
If you are considering a budget that high, you might wanna look into the Townshend Rock 7 for a fair bit less.
I have a good buddy who is friends with Dan Meinwald of EAR USA, since childhood. Dan is importer / distributor for Townshend. He tells my buddy it's a terrific deck and he's selling tons of them. (Not marketing blather as my buddy is very happy with his Garrard 301 / Wheaton Triplanar setup, and not in the market.)
Hmmmmm.....many being sold and yet almost never seen on the used market. :scratch:
I know, I've been searching for it, and I've seen maybe one in past 4 years. Why? Great performance and owner satisfaction is the logical conclusion.
I have no connection to Townsend or EAR USA, financial or otherwise, other than as a potential future customer. Just passing on some insider info. Fringe gear not getting the buzz / hype like the big glamour names is often the result of poor marketing, and not indicative of poor performance. I learned this after owning, and loving, several Kuzma products, and several other lesser names.
PS: Dan says the Rock is stunning with Helius tonearms.
http://www.ear-usa.com/home
-
I never left analog, and kinda laughed at digital music when it took $3K to even buy a payer. Yet I still listen to digital music when I'm hitting the hooch a little too much. But if its a serious set down to listen to something like Bitches Brew, I'm gonna be spinning the table. I've had turntables all the way from a JVC belt drive up to my current favorite; the Acoustic Signature Final Tool. In between we saw (and often endured with) the SL1200's (two or three), high end JVC's, Music Halls. and even a Chinese copy of the Final Tool. Always come back home to the Final Tool. While that quest was going on, I went thru many CD players and several DAC's. Some have (or had) a nice sound, and some just flat sucked! My current favorite is a Jolida, and have used this unit since I bought it new several years ago. There have been several Sony "ES" in the mix and a couple Marantz units as well. Probably own eight or ten decks right now. My favorite CD player would be the Sony 777ES, but alas they are not being made anymore. Even then it won't run with most of the turntables out there if the are set up correctly.
I found a three month old Final Tool that was part of an estate settlement. Bought it for $1250 delivered, but no tone arm. I bought a new Graham Robin and a Denon D160 cartridge. For a phono stage I used a solid state Margalis that left something to be desired. But the system sounded better than any CD player I'd heard (including the Sony 777es). I made a trade with another guy for an SME MK. IV arm, and this got much better. In the mean time I'd had a new phono stage built by AVA that had two inputs, and switched cartridges to a Grado Platinum. Felt my George Wright had a better sound to may taste. Did go back to the AVA couple more times with other cartridges, and still ended up with the Wright each time. While this was going on I came into a new Opera Conscious turntable. Looked like a generic Final tool, but trust me it won't begin to run with the Final Tool. I messed with both for a couple years, often making subtile changes in the setup, and experimenting with drive strings and other strange things. Found noticeable changes by switching from cotton thread (Final Tool) and monofilament fishing line to silk thread and a silk/polyester blend. Then I started a long process of cleaning out the low order feedback, and things really got better. Highs were far more extended with a much tighter bass. Later I broke down the Final Tool, and started back with the Opera again. The motor was junk on a good day, and the spindle bearing and spindle sucked. I rebuilt the entire table except for the motor. Much better sound with the SME arm. I then built a motor isolation pad, and that helped a little bit. I saw an add for a Ginko Cloud that was designed for a VPI HRX. The foot print of the Final Tool and the HRX are similar as well as the weight. Made a nice improvement. Next change will be the new phono stage from Odyssey (somebody send me some money<g>).
While all this was going on, I came into another Technics SL1200 MK.II. This one will eventually get the full set of KAB mods, and a good mono cartridge. It will be dedicated to mono jazz LP's. Still day in and day out the turntable simply smokes the digital music.
gary
-
Analog in its essence is vibration. Digital is bits. Which one more resembles nature do you think. Not that I prefer analog for philosophical reasons. Rather, because it sounds, and feels, more natural to me. Here's an analogy for you. Think of an Andy Warhol painting. Does anyone really like his work? If so, I wonder if they or you listen to classical music. I can admire really good photography. Ansel Adams just blows me away. Man, does he have an eye for structure, but I cannot feel the subject's creation emotionally. This is of most importance to me listening to classical music, music typically made on location. I'm wondering if digital can capture and playback hall ambience as well. I have not put it to the test. That just popped into my head.
-
If you are considering a budget that high, you might wanna look into the Townshend Rock 7 for a fair bit less.
I have a good buddy who is friends with Dan Meinwald of EAR USA, since childhood. Dan is importer / distributor for Townshend. He tells my buddy it's a terrific deck and he's selling tons of them. (Not marketing blather as my buddy is very happy with his Garrard 301 / Wheaton Triplanar setup, and not in the market.)
Hmmmmm.....many being sold and yet almost never seen on the used market. :scratch:
I know, I've been searching for it, and I've seen maybe one in past 4 years. Why? Great performance and owner satisfaction is the logical conclusion.
I have no connection to Townsend or EAR USA, financial or otherwise, other than as a potential future customer. Just passing on some insider info. Fringe gear not getting the buzz / hype like the big glamour names is often the result of poor marketing, and not indicative of poor performance. I learned this after owning, and loving, several Kuzma products, and several other lesser names.
PS: Dan says the Rock is stunning with Helius tonearms.
http://www.ear-usa.com/home
I am a Townshend dealer albeit I've never tried any arm with it except the Excalibur. Well, what can I say? It is a very good table. Sound wise I think it is reminiscent of tables like the TD124. Nice rich, full midrange and bass that goes deep and clean. Maybe a bit soft on top at least using a ZYX Airy 3s. The oddly shaped Excalibur shell doesn't allow me to mount cartridges that aren't rectangular. I do think there is one thing that might put off an OCD type of person. It is not very easy to level. It has spring/pneumatic suspension and to level it there is a counterbalance arm that comes out of the left side. You have to set that just right. The strange thing is, the darn thing doesn't seem to mind even if your bubble level resembles one of Cookie Monster's eyes. Well, two things. Even when I had an HRX, I was never keen on screw down clamps. I prefer weighted ones. The Rock 7 uses a screw down clamp and it does sound much better when the clamp is on. At first I thought the silicon trough would be the the weirdest thing. As it turned out, using it becomes second nature after a handful of LPs.
I spotted pics of the gents from EAR using a Rock 7 with the Helius arm. Speakers were by Marten if I recall correctly. I remember wanting to try this arm with the Rock 7 and I still do. The Excalibur was a bear to set VTA up. See there are these three screws…… oh well don't mind me. Spoiled by having VTA on the fly for years and years. :lol:
-
Everything is analog. "Digital" is just a simple conveyance of analog circuits underneath. Go look at the internal circuitry of a Integrated Circuit on something like a Texas Instruments datasheet, whether it's TTL, CMOS, High Speed CMOS or any of the other "Digital" technologies..
In a digital system, the D to A is important, but so is the Analog output stage. Both impact the sound that the system provides.
It's been a long time since I looked at the signal path from a turntable, but I don't think a turntable is taking the analog signal from the stylus and passing it to the rest of your system without modification. It just depends on how the signal is being manipulated. Cartridges manipulate the signal. Op amps manipulate the signal as well as inductors, capacitors and resistors in the signal path. Keep in mind that LCR's don't have to be physical components. The wire and printed circuit boards in the equipment all have inductance, capacitance and resistance built in.
In the end, it's just physics. Listen carefully and trust your ears. There is more than one way to audio nirvana. Both approaches (digital/analog or tubes/solid state) are valid.
HsvHeelFan
-
Jack, I hear you bout cartridge bodies that don't have right angles. What are these manufacturers thinking? That we all have radial tracking arms :o?
-
........ Well, two things. Even when I had an HRX, I was never keen on screw down clamps. I prefer weighted ones. The Rock 7 uses a screw down clamp and it does sound much better when the clamp is on. At first I thought the silicon trough would be the the weirdest thing. As it turned out, using it becomes second nature after a handful of LPs.........
I have been using my Townshend Rock mk3 since 1997. It's the model with the built-in air bladder (i.e., Seismic Sink). It too has the front dampening trough and the screw down clamp. The trough does seem onerous and burdensome at first, but like you say, it quickly becomes easy. I don't mind the screw down clamp, but I've never used a drop-on weighted one. If I had perhaps I'd find the screw clamp a bit cumbersome. I can say it does a great job at flattening warped records and making them nice and tight on the platter.
The Rock is a very innovative design that sounds great, so I would suggest that folks not let the above "issues" exclude it from consideration. IMO, they really are not that big a deal.
-
Oh definitely. These are little niggles not real performance issues. I'm just saying that these are actually a bit unique to the Rock 7. The spindle for example unlike others has the threads on the clamp and these go inside the spindle. Most have a threaded spindle and the clamp goes over it. Plus and minuses here. The minus is that getting that screw into the hole can be tricky. The plus is, well, how many times have we seen vinyl shavings on our platters with threaded spindles!
Personally, I think these little things add to the charm. Gives the unit a character if you will. I just think there's no harm in people knowing about these little things.
-
No argument from me here, Jack. Knowledge is power! :thumb:
-
Hi Geowak, I just reread this thread you started back in June. (a good read) I was wondering if you followed
through with a table or put it on the back burner for awhile. I just started looking into getting a vintage turntable or a decent (cheap) quality new one for my apartment system that I’m trying to put together.
Regards,
Brooklyn
-
No I have not. There are so many choices, it is hard to narrow it down. Still looking, but I just might get an older belt drive. I always tend to go with tried and true brands, as well.
-
It can be frustrating at times not being sure which direction to go in but thats what part of this hobby is all about. I would like it much better if I could drive to a high end audio store and audition something so I can make an informed decision like I did years ago.
I’ve also been thinking of getting a vintage belt drive turntable so I could listen to some albums at my apartment. My other choice would be a new Pro-ject Debut Carbon with the Ortofon 2M Red cartridge, It seems nice and cheap. :D
If I had to buy a new high end turntable for my home rig right now I would definitely buy another VPI, probably one of the Classic models. They make great turntables right here in the USA and it looks like the company will stay a family run business for years to come.
Hang in there bud, it’s all good…..
-
If your considering getting back into vinyl, would do as those in the know have suggested, which is to get a decent entry level table to start to make sure that you really like it. That is, for some people the physical LP collecting, handling, and the magic it can produce leads them deeper into it. For others, the hassles and frankly the fact that very often many titles simply do not have the vaunted vinyl "magic" sound - same as digital - brings people back to earth with reality. I'm teetering more to the latter even after moving somewhat past the "entry level".
For those reasons, the Project Debut Carbon w/ Ortofon 2M Red really is the way to start. Fortunately these are well enough in demand that if you do decide to move up (or out), you likely could recover 90% of your minor investment. That happened with me an a Project RPM 1.3 - i.e kept the cart, sold the table, recouped 90%, and went on to a VPI. Helped that the RPM 1.3 looked so cool it was an easy sell, but the Debut Carbon is undoubtably a better table.
Short answer : don't sweat it too much & dive in w/ a Debut Carbon / 2M RED combo - you really have little to loose!
-
There is no way I am going back to vinyl. Too much weight to move, too many rituals and too much maintenance associated with playback is time spent not listening to music.
All the effort is for a degenerative process. The wear is real, and audible. The idea that to really get in the groove (pardon the pun), I should be looking at dropping $5-$10 grand on a turntable rig, I find laughable. At that price point, the differences between analog and digital are negligible.
A lot of vinyl spinners go on about how cr@p digital sounds, and then attempt to bound a meta-argument (analog vs. digital) by comparing contemporary vinyl media and playback against Compact Discs. If you want to hate on CD, then for the love of the holey formats we all embrace, kindly decide to make an intelligent, meaningful comparison.
If I were to go back to the beginnings of "vinyl" recording and playback, going 35 years along the timeline puts me barely on this side of mechanical recording. In other words: If you want to compare "vinyl" (analog) playback to CD (digital), and taking the "birth" of CD as 1981 (even though I did not see them on the street until 1983), you would be comparing 78-RPM Acetate-era discs to CD. The idea of today's vinyl being superior to SACD or 24/192 PCM is simply delusional.
Analog and digital both have their own kind(s) of added noise. Like it or not, there is distortion introduced by both, the multiple chains associated with making a recording (recording, mastering, reproduction, playback) and the components of all of the chains used.
The one thing I miss about vinyl: Album art. Beat on digital for killing album art all you want. I'll even hand you the bat.
[Edited to make smaller]
-
I’m not sure if this was a digital bashing thread, I think it was a the turntable that would make a digital audiophile covert back to analog thread.
That said, there are vinyl or digital purest out there that wouldn’t have anything to do with the other medium but I think
most audiophiles are coexisting with both analog and digital formats like myself, both have there own merits.
If I sold all my vinyl and turntable years ago I probably wouldn’t be getting back into spinning albums to listen to music even though I believe the music that comes from vinyl is more involving and that is my personal opinion and maybe the opinion of all the music listeners that are buying turntables and albums at a huge clip.
If I was getting back into vinyl, I think the Pro-Ject Carbon with the Ortofon 2M red is a great choice and it would leave plenty of money for buying albums. If I wanted to get back into vinyl in a big way, that would require a few thousand bucks and that (I believe) would be more musically involving then (most) of the digital media that’s out there.
-
I’m not sure if this was a digital bashing thread, I think it was a the turntable that would make a digital audiophile covert back to analog thread.
That said, there are vinyl or digital purest out there that wouldn’t have anything to do with the other medium but I think
most audiophiles are coexisting with both analog and digital formats like myself, both have there own merits.
If I sold all my vinyl and turntable years ago I probably wouldn’t be getting back into spinning albums to listen to music even though I believe the music that comes from vinyl is more involving and that is my personal opinion and maybe the opinion of all the music listeners that are buying turntables and albums at a huge clip.
If I was getting back into vinyl, I think the Pro-Ject Carbon with the Ortofon 2M red is a great choice and it would leave plenty of money for buying albums. If I wanted to get back into vinyl in a big way, that would require a few thousand bucks and that (I believe) would be more musically involving then (most) of the digital media that’s out there.
Thanks jarcher and brooklyn
I think I will check out the Pro-Ject more closely. Also I think many here don't think the analog vs digital needs to be an MMA slugfest. I don't think I should have used the term "convert" on my original post, but rather want to add a TT to my existing digital audio system. I don't want to become an Audio snob, and start calling the digital side "the dark side". All audio is good, that is my weakness.
-
Music, in all its forms, is good.
That being said, I can see how some digi-types get a simple CD player and are happy. But others look for the best DAC, or go the computer audio route and get into all sorts of complications. On the vinyl side it can also be relatively plug and play or you can get into a similar amount of setup pickiness and such.
Personally, if I'm going to get deep into a hobby I better be enjoying all the minutia that comes along with that level of committment. I guess it's all part of becoming an amateur expert on something that you truly love.
-
Thanks jarcher and brooklyn
I think I will check out the Pro-Ject more closely. Also I think many here don't think the analog vs digital needs to be an MMA slugfest. I don't think I should have used the term "convert" on my original post, but rather want to add a TT to my existing digital audio system. I don't want to become an Audio snob, and start calling the digital side "the dark side". All audio is good, that is my weakness.
I have a Pro-Ject Debut and I upgraded the cartridge to the Ortofon 2M Blue a while back. Would recommend the combination (although I should note that my Pro-ject didn't have the Red installed as the original cartridge -- it was a cheaper Ortofon -- so the improvement from that to the Blue was just stunning). Have fun.
-
Well that's music to my ears.. :D
Thanks for the tip Scoville, much appreciated.
-
I have a Pro-Ject Debut and I upgraded the cartridge to the Ortofon 2M Blue a while back. Would recommend the combination (although I should note that my Pro-ject didn't have the Red installed as the original cartridge -- it was a cheaper Ortofon -- so the improvement from that to the Blue was just stunning). Have fun.
Hi Scoville.
Yes, that's good information, in case I want to scrap my Rega P3.
Thanks.
May I ask what phono stage you have?
Guy 13
-
Geowak,
The title of this thread is unfortunate. Besides attracting idiot trolls who didn't bother to find out what this is really about, it implies something only you can answer. Exactly what are you looking for? You might not know what that is specifically in equipment, but do you know the sound you want?
Are you prepared to start cleaning records and futzing with all the record player adjustments, mounting considerations etc. or do you just want another source? Looking for detailed yet forgiving, something that could make your jaw drop, wide and deep stage, near perfect speed stability, all of the above?
30 years ago you dumped your record player for CDs. Why, perfect sound forever, tired of noisy records?
My post is about expectations and your desire to get back into analog. If you really want to get back into it, the choices are confusing. While it's a good idea to get something with good resale value, I doubt if entry level will really float your boat. It would be nice to get something you might be happy with for longer term rather than spend your time buying and selling. You'll also need stuff like an RCM, fluid, sleeves. How about a phono stage?
If you're serious we should be talking about specifics and not all this digital vs analog BS. You can change the name of this thread. Just log in and modify your post. I'll nominate the Audiomods arm with micrometer (around $1K) and a decent used table cut out for Rega, a Vista phono stage ($300) and a used VPI 16.5 RCM (around $400). We can figure out a nice cart for that, depending on your preference. We can be well under $5K, even $4K, and you'll have an excellent record player and what you need to get going.
Look at this stuff:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-nitty-gritty-model-2-oak-cabinet-2014-07-24-analog-24060-whitethorne-va
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-basis-2000-1-belt-drive-turntable-excellent-2014-06-26-analog-95053-santa-clara-ca
neo
-
As long as the responses are reasoned with personal experiences in both formats, I am fine with discussing differences between digital and analog. I don't want dogmatic assertions though. No shouting matches please.
Everyone prioritizes aspects of music differently. Some can't stand the pops and ticks and will not touch vinyl. Some prefer the full or bloated sound of vinyl over the clinically clean yet lean or accurate digital sound. Some think details and dynamics are most important. Others think tonality over-rides accuracy. It's a personal preference thing. Then there is the different routines that you have to go through to play. CD's used to be much easier but the whole computer playback routine is making this format somewhat cumbersome. Still, it's all in the set up and one can play for a long time once you hit play whereas you have to keep changing the records while cleaning the stylus, the record surface and destaticizing each time.
Personally, I go to analog when I really want to get lost in the music given my set up on both formats. But I won't give up on the digital formats either because it is much more convenient and I can't get some music on vinyl that I can get on digital. I also think the hi-rez products are sounding damned good especially when they were produced in hi-rez throughout. Remastering crappy master into hi-rez files doesn't do it. Nor does remastering bad analog master into 200 gm 45's for that matter.
My theory for digital music lacking something is this. I remember having to do a hand written Fourier transform in my limited math education. What I got was that it's a PITA and that it would take high powered computing (30 years ago) to do any transform to replicate a shape. Philosophical impression that I got was that transform approaches the real shape with infinite steps but never the real thing. I don't really know if music sampling uses Fourier or not but my rudimentary grasping of music sampling theory is that you get closer to the real thing with more bits and higher frequency. But hi-rez isn't everything though. I have heard Non Over Sampling DACs at 16bit depth sound very full and musical where faster and bigger DAC did not. Also a preamp (or the analog output section of the DAC) makes a big difference in the sound. The conclusion is that ADC/DAC is an approximation process that gets truer to the original sound with more bit depth and higher frequency but the analog manipulation of the replicated signal afterward may even be more important.
So I don't really know if the vinyl sound that I like is due to an additional, analog artifact or because it's that sound that didn't lose anything. I know I prefer it. For now. :?
As far as conversion from digital to analog in the OP question, it's a moot point. I do both.
-
I rely on my state of mind to decide which to enjoy. If I'm drinking...it's CDs, If I'm stone cold sober...it's vinyl. :green:
Doc
-
I rely on my state of mind to decide which to enjoy. If I'm drinking...it's CDs, If I'm stone cold sober...it's vinyl. :green:
Doc
There is that. Drunk handling of vinyl can lead to expensive accidents. :nono: Plus, everything sounds good at that point anyway.
-
Hi Scoville.
Yes, that's good information, in case I want to scrap my Rega P3.
Thanks.
May I ask what phono stage you have?
Guy 13
Guy --
My phono stage is a Vista phono 1 mk-II. Have had it for couple months now. Am quite pleased with it.
-
I must have miss the boat on the Vista phono preamp, I never even heard of it until now
but it looks interesting.. Thanks for sharing..
-
I must have miss the boat on the Vista phono preamp, I never even heard of it until now
but it looks interesting.. Thanks for sharing..
I owned the Vista phono for several years. It is excellent for the price, and beyond. I used it in a much higher level analog setup than is being discussed here, so buy with confidence. :thumb:
Highly recommended, and Boris is great to deal with. A simple search on this board will uncover many positive comments.
-
I owned the Vista phono for several years. It is excellent for the price, and beyond. I used it in a much higher level analog setup than is being discussed here, so buy with confidence. :thumb:
Highly recommended, and Boris is great to deal with. A simple search on this board will uncover many positive comments.
I'll 2nd the Vista. I have a Vista ACLE unit and compared it to a Pass Labs DIY Pearl 2, the Vista hands down is better then the pearl 2 in my system.
To me, the Pearl 2 was too layed back with little dynamics compared to the Vista.
I sold the pearl 2.
-
Once again, thanks to all for the info. I will read through it and look at all the options. I do know, that analog brings a different set of problems and quirks as well as the chance to get high quality sound. I think that many of you are correct, there are many things to consider when getting back into records and turntables. I would need to get a better phono amp, for sure. So in the end, many more pieces of equipment to buy and tweak. I realize some of you audio guys have spent many, many hours changing setups. in an attempt to get better sound. Probably over many years. My hats off to you! So the lesson I'm sure, is that if you are going down that road, know beforehand, it can be a very long ride.