Odyssey / Symphonic Line at CAF 2022 - Out of this world!

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rooze

Spent time in the Odyssey room on Friday. Klaus basically opened the doors a few minutes before I showed up and the system already sounded fantastic. I'm sure there will be ongoing tweaks so I'll stop back on Sunday before I head out.

Klaus has the Liquid speakers pulled well out into the room and forms an equilateral triangle with the listening seat. Then I believe he nudges the seat forward towards the speakers so it's at 90% of the distance between the two speakers. This creates a vast, deep soundstage and takes out most of the room reflections. Again, it sounded fantastic. I heard his setup at the show in 2019 and while Odyssey electronics are hard to beat, the Symphonic line gear takes things to another level.

Michael Fremer stopped by to talk with Klaus about the system, here's a link to a short video that starts out with a minute of Satchmo, followed by Klaus walking/talking us through the system.

https://www.audioresurgence.com/2022/11/capital-audiofest-2022-odyssey-audio-symphonic-line.html

Carl V

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Re: Odyssey / Symphonic Line at CAF 2022 - Out of this world!
« Reply #1 on: 12 Nov 2022, 02:52 pm »
always a great set up.

Loki57

Re: Odyssey / Symphonic Line at CAF 2022 - Out of this world!
« Reply #2 on: 12 Nov 2022, 03:14 pm »
I'd love to buy his demo Liquids

zybar

Re: Odyssey / Symphonic Line at CAF 2022 - Out of this world!
« Reply #3 on: 12 Nov 2022, 03:23 pm »
I miss going to shows and talking to Klaus.

Some of my best times in the early days of RMAF we’re hanging out with him.

Plus he makes some killer products at a great price!

George

whydontumarryit

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Re: Odyssey / Symphonic Line at CAF 2022 - Out of this world!
« Reply #4 on: 12 Nov 2022, 06:02 pm »


“Klaus has the Liquid speakers pulled well out into the room and forms an equilateral triangle with the listening seat. Then I believe he nudges the seat forward towards the speakers so it's at 90% of the distance between the two speakers. This creates a vast, deep soundstage and takes out most of the room reflections.”

It's easy enough to duplicate this configuration with literally any pair of speakers on hand and end up with a fantastic sounding reproduction because you hear mostly reflected (room) sound and minimal direct sound from the speakers. It's a trick that just happens to work out favorably even if it can be considered as a form of coloration since everything heard has that same soundstage and ambience no matter the recording quality.
That begs the question, should obviously bad recordings sound bad on a premium system? If you can, have him play a known good 60s,vinyl, mono, jazz recording. If rather than sounding very good it turns out to be absolutely stunning then given the lack of resolution, modern recording equipment and multichannel reproduction in this case something is very wrong about what it is that should be the direction of pursuit in this business.

This extreme off-axis, nearfield listening position presents problems with the slightest movements from the exact center LP since at say 5 or 6 ft from the speaker moving your head 1 ft laterally changes the level between the left and right speakers by 3db vs a reasonable 1db change at 15 ft. This is an annoyance I can't put up with unless you actually like the head-in-a-vise approach.

Also, from equilateral, it's more like 80% than 90%. I move from 9 ft to 7 ft forward to imitate that vast soundstage you describe as having something to do with the speakers. There is no increase in depth, as a matter of fact, in this position there is a reduction in that fake depth perception and a more uniform transition of instrument location across the soundstage by hearing still even less direct sound (making the speakers 'disappear') or at least further equalizing the ambient and direct sound so that you can't 'see' where the sound is coming from.

The sound is far more diffuse than seems right being a trade off between the pinpoint imaging, tiny instrument sound vs the hard to localize but still coherent life sized instrument (vast soundstage, as you say) sound you get with this setup.
My problem with this configuration is that no matter how attractive the impression it is a distraction from appreciating the correct timbre and harmonic structure of instruments if the recording allows. I think this setup is flawed for the very same reasons it seems to be good.

I could be wrong, though. This critical listening stuff is mostly way too complicated and confusing to me.


ishmael25

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Re: Odyssey / Symphonic Line at CAF 2022 - Out of this world!
« Reply #5 on: 13 Nov 2022, 01:18 pm »
So mad  :(  planned to come to DC and spend a lot of time in Klaus’s room.  Even got a room at the Hilton.  Then, diagnosed with COVID last week.  So, staying home.  Enjoy the show everyone.  I am sure the room is beyond belief.  Can’t wait to see pics and hear impressions.  :popcorn:

RonN5

Re: Odyssey / Symphonic Line at CAF 2022 - Out of this world!
« Reply #6 on: 13 Nov 2022, 03:19 pm »
At 160lbs per speaker and $5900 per pair, these must be the lowest cost speakers at the show on a per pound basis.

NoahH

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Re: Odyssey / Symphonic Line at CAF 2022 - Out of this world!
« Reply #7 on: 13 Nov 2022, 04:07 pm »
It's easy enough to duplicate this configuration with literally any pair of speakers on hand and end up with a fantastic sounding reproduction because you hear mostly reflected (room) sound and minimal direct sound from the speakers. It's a trick that just happens to work out favorably even if it can be considered as a form of coloration since everything heard has that same soundstage and ambience no matter the recording quality.

I am extremely confused by why you believe this. If you toed the speaker _out_ maybe, but they are usually straight or more commonly tied in.

You are getting *less* room and reflections, not more. The simple mental model is that if you continue forward until you sit between the speakers with them 90 degrees toed in, you are using the speakers as headphones, and the strength of the sound from reflections is a fraction that of the primary sound wave. The further back you go, the more that ratio increases in favor of the reflections. Equilateral triangle distance tends to be the extreme you want to be to maintain the headphone-like effect.

tparm

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Re: Odyssey / Symphonic Line at CAF 2022 - Out of this world!
« Reply #8 on: 13 Nov 2022, 09:11 pm »
Only room I visited for a second time before leaving the Fest, great atmosphere, spectacular sound and fun! Where can I find details on the speakers? Nothing on the website. Curious about finish options, turn around time, shipping, is pick up an option, return policy? Build and sound were great, not even including “for the money!” Thanks

whydontumarryit

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Re: Odyssey / Symphonic Line at CAF 2022 - Out of this world!
« Reply #9 on: 13 Nov 2022, 10:28 pm »
I'm going by the straight into the room position shown for the speakers in the video. If you move closer in between the speakers and keep going you get progressively less direct sound until the point where you would be behind the speakers and getting essentially no direct sound at all.

My position isn't carved in stone. Yours, however, seems so adamant that you must be aware of indisputable proof to back your claim and help me easily decide the matter.

tia

WGH

Re: Odyssey / Symphonic Line at CAF 2022 - Out of this world!
« Reply #10 on: 14 Nov 2022, 01:12 am »
The explanation by Floyd E. Toole Ph.D. below is probably what whydontumarryit is talking about. The example explains what happens what happens when an 8" driver becomes directional at higher frequencies.



The Liquid drivers and cabinet design probably have a very even 30 degree off axis response like the graph below in order to get the Best Sounding Room from Michael Fremer. Room reflections would then be inconsequential and irrelevant.



I don't know what speakers whydontumarryit are using for his experiment, they might be similar to Figure 23.

Read the entire article:

Loudspeakers and Rooms - Working Together
by Floyd E. Toole, Ph.D.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=58304.msg516580#msg516580

NoahH

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Re: Odyssey / Symphonic Line at CAF 2022 - Out of this world!
« Reply #11 on: 14 Nov 2022, 03:24 am »
I'm going by the straight into the room position shown for the speakers in the video. If you move closer in between the speakers and keep going you get progressively less direct sound until the point where you would be behind the speakers and getting essentially no direct sound at all.

My position isn't carved in stone. Yours, however, seems so adamant that you must be aware of indisputable proof to back your claim and help me easily decide the matter.

tia

Yeah - I am seeing the confusion now. The Floyd diagram is about off-axis response. See all my comments about toe-in.

You can be 100% on-axis regardless of position relative to the speakers if they are turned to face the listener (toe-in).

The effect of distance from the speaker to listener relative to reflections is really simple: sound decreases exponentially with distance. So when you make the distance from you to the speaker directly half the distance as the reflected distance, the reflections are 1/4 the volume. When you make it a quarter the distance (such as being in the middle between between 8' separated speakers with ~10 or 11 ft ceilings - you have 1/16th the volume.


Letitroll98

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Re: Odyssey / Symphonic Line at CAF 2022 - Out of this world!
« Reply #12 on: 14 Nov 2022, 12:40 pm »
Please help me understand this post.  Originally the LP seat was moved forward to where it was 90% of the distance between the speakers, not at a 90° angle from the speakers.  To me that means if the speakers are 10' apart you are 9' from each speaker.  To make it simple we'll go with zero toe in.  A very reasonable and common placement.

Then either it changes or I misunderstood the first placement.  Are you gentlemen talking about sitting at a 90° angle from the speaker, in other words directly between the speakers?   We used this placement with Maggies a few years ago, maybe a few decades, I think we called it the Rooze or something like that.  I have a feeling I'm getting this wrong but I'm rereading and can't find my error.

Lastly, with either scenario, is the toe in tracking the LP or do the speakers remain pointed forward?

Thanks for the help.

rooze

Re: Odyssey / Symphonic Line at CAF 2022 - Out of this world!
« Reply #13 on: 14 Nov 2022, 01:34 pm »
Please help me understand this post.  Originally the LP seat was moved forward to where it was 90% of the distance between the speakers, not at a 90° angle from the speakers.  To me that means if the speakers are 10' apart you are 9' from each speaker.  To make it simple we'll go with zero toe in.  A very reasonable and common placement.

Then either it changes or I misunderstood the first placement.  Are you gentlemen talking about sitting at a 90° angle from the speaker, in other words directly between the speakers?   We used this placement with Maggies a few years ago, maybe a few decades, I think we called it the Rooze or something like that.  I have a feeling I'm getting this wrong but I'm rereading and can't find my error.

Lastly, with either scenario, is the toe in tracking the LP or do the speakers remain pointed forward?

Thanks for the help.
Hey,
I’m not sure where the confusion is coming from, not in your post but in some of the others. The main ‘unconventional’ thing about this setup is how far out into the room the speakers are. I didn’t measure but they looked almost at the half-way point, not quite, but close. Speakers at least 10’ apart, again, I didn’t get a tape measure out but they were probably north of 10’, not south. Then I may have misremembered what Klaus told me about the distance to the chair. I said 90% in the original post, I now think he said 80%. Klaus will surely stop by and clarify this point when he’s back in town.

So this is NOT the “Rooze” setup that you mentioned in your post. I came up with that setup over a decade ago and talked about it over on Audio Asylum, and as you say, it involved a listening chair on the same line as the speakers, or actually a little farther back, and was more specific to a dipole like a Magnepan.

So, Klaus took advantage of having a large room and pulling the speakers and the chair well away from boundaries to minimize room interaction. Even with the speakers firing straight ahead, as they were (almost, perhaps as little as 5 degrees of toe-in), with the dispersion pattern from the drivers you’re still sitting in the direct sound field. You are NOT sitting out of the direct sound field listening to room reflections as the primary sound field as one does (to some extent) with the old “Rooze” setup from way back when.

Hope that clarifies things a little.

Rooze

klaus@odyssey

Re: Odyssey / Symphonic Line at CAF 2022 - Out of this world!
« Reply #14 on: 15 Nov 2022, 11:08 pm »
Seriously.........more spec based opinions ????   Give me a break.  Listen...trust your ears.   And yes,  Rooze is correct in that you'll have to adjust the toe-in..........

A quick "info "  from Axpona a few years ago....

It works for me and many others who have tried it...if it doesn't float your boat,  then don't do it...and as for pinpoint imaging AND  massive layering of soundstaging:  if you have the right gear and pay some attention you'll have both


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELqzdPOpww4&t=6s

JMW73

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Re: Odyssey / Symphonic Line at CAF 2022 - Out of this world!
« Reply #15 on: 16 Nov 2022, 12:39 am »
Klaus, you're a little less gray in that video than the recent videos from CAF!!  :lol:

Rocket_Ronny

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Re: Odyssey / Symphonic Line at CAF 2022 - Out of this world!
« Reply #16 on: 16 Nov 2022, 04:34 am »
I totally agree with Klaus on setup and is how I have done it, although not measuring to opposing ears.

He does it right:

Pulls speakers out into the room for a 10ms reflection delay. I use 1 foot per ms, aprox. So, 5' from speaker to back wall and 5' back to the speaker = 10ms. System picts below.

Has speakers spread wide apart vs. seating position = realistic soundstage width. No TV sized soundstage.

Has speakers off axis to the listener. Gives air and realism.

Has low light and nice ambient lighting. Perfect! Allows one to mentally see the performance better.

Has plants as diffusers. WAF.

I almost bought your amps several times now Klaus. Even talked to you on the phone. Great job.

Rocket Ronny



I would put pillows behind my head, usually, ha.










klaus@odyssey

Re: Odyssey / Symphonic Line at CAF 2022 - Out of this world!
« Reply #17 on: 16 Nov 2022, 11:26 am »
Klaus, you're a little less gray in that video than the recent videos from CAF!!  :lol:


Ehem...yeahhh ..about that.

It was a case of grey touch-up gone bad........and man,  looking at the videos from the weekend:  wayyy too old and heavy.  have to do something about that.....