Upgrading components in x-over without changing values

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Highendfool

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Sorry if this has been asked earlier, but there’s a lot of material here and I couldn’t find any answer to this specific question.
I’m wondering if I replaced all the caps, coils and resisters in my speakers with the best brands, without changing any values, would there be a noticeable improvement, worth the expense.
 Thanks in advance!

JCarney

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Re: Upgrading components in x-over without changing values
« Reply #1 on: 25 Oct 2022, 01:31 am »
I've upgraded parts in three different speakers now, and have yet to be disappointed or felt I wasted my time and money. Manufacturers usually use more affordable, lesser quality, parts in the crossover because they are safely tucked away in the box where no one can see them. Sand cast resistors, electrolytic caps and inexpensive polys are typically what you find. In some cases in small two ways, you could find an iron core inductor. They have no place in a crossover IMHO. If they already have air core inductors, I'd consider leaving those in place. If you plan on using foil inductors go for it. Mills, Jantzen and several others not coming to mind for resistors, again in my opinion.

Best of luck and have fun,
JCarney

2bigears

Re: Upgrading components in x-over without changing values
« Reply #2 on: 25 Oct 2022, 01:34 am »
 :D doesn't cost come into it ? You may get 10% better performance ? But at what cost ? Time and $$ factored in.  Danny would surely have a good handle on this. Good question though. Diminished returns ?  :D

Highendfool

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Re: Upgrading components in x-over without changing values
« Reply #3 on: 25 Oct 2022, 01:42 am »
:D doesn't cost come into it ? You may get 10% better performance ? But at what cost ? Time and $$ factored in.  Danny would surely have a good handle on this. Good question though. Diminished returns ?  :D

Yes, I agree cost is a factor, but I’m not going to even bother opening my speakers until I have Danny tell me it’s going to make enough audible improvements to justify the time and materials. The point in question is the “without changing values” part. I know if we start playing with values, we change everything! I don’t want to do that.
Not yet anyway!

Highendfool

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Re: Upgrading components in x-over without changing values
« Reply #4 on: 25 Oct 2022, 01:42 am »
I've upgraded parts in three different speakers now, and have yet to be disappointed or felt I wasted my time and money. Manufacturers usually use more affordable, lesser quality, parts in the crossover because they are safely tucked away in the box where no one can see them. Sand cast resistors, electrolytic caps and inexpensive polys are typically what you find. In some cases in small two ways, you could find an iron core inductor. They have no place in a crossover IMHO. If they already have air core inductors, I'd consider leaving those in place. If you plan on using foil inductors go for it. Mills, Jantzen and several others not coming to mind for resistors, again in my opinion.

Best of luck and have fun,
JCarney

Thanks! 👍

JCarney

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Re: Upgrading components in x-over without changing values
« Reply #5 on: 25 Oct 2022, 01:47 am »
You're Welcome. :D

JCarney

JCarney

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Re: Upgrading components in x-over without changing values
« Reply #6 on: 25 Oct 2022, 02:08 am »
2bigears:
Yes, cost of course comes into play. I'm too cheap to lay out Miflex kind of cap money.  :lol: Unfortunately, Erse is no longer, so real good caps at realistic money are harder to find, but it can be done. I like to get good caps and bypass them with something really good with a .01uf cap so I do not have to spend a weeks wages on a cap.  :o Also, I look for 5% tolerance or lower on everything new I purchase.

JCarney

Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: Upgrading components in x-over without changing values
« Reply #7 on: 25 Oct 2022, 02:35 am »
That's kind of the wrong question to ask, as the reality, simply put, "it's complicated." You will get improvements in some ways and others may only make for a shift in tone, or sound stage presentation.
Plus, what is "best" will be dependent on what you want out of the components, and what your speaker is capable of reproducing, but in the end you may not like how "the best parts" sound, or the compromises you need to make in order to use them.

Synergy is as much a thing with components as it is with amplifiers and any other gear.
You need to know where you're starting from, and what it is that you want out of the upgrade process, and how far you're willing to go and how much you're willing to spend.
and lastly what sort of sound are you after? Smooth? Clean? Warm? Detailed? etc...

Generally speaking, the biggest improvements come from getting away from dirt cheap iron-core inductors and electrolytic caps, especially in the mid and treble. (300Hz-20KHz)

If you have a typical retail speaker the real trick is going to be fitting the new parts onto the old board, as in most cases, even budget quality crossover parts can be several times larger than their stock counterparts, capacitors and inductors especially, and you'll have to rebuild the crossover onto a new board.
Plus you have to take the drivers and cabinet into account, is it a big speaker? does it have a large baffle? is it well braced?
what kind of drivers does it use? are they fast? slow? etc..

All of that will affect what parts make the most sense for your build and what is possible.
a big box speaker with wide baffles, no bracing, and big metal drivers will be limited in it's performance at a lot of levels, even with the "best" parts
Meanwhile, a speaker with a narrow baffle & a well braced cabinet with fast, articulate drivers, will already have good performance even with budget components.

For instance, take a look at this massive copper foil capacitor I used in my NX-Studios crossover. I cannot fit it into the speaker with the rest of the crossover, it's just too large.



That's not a realistic option for most people, especially at $300-400 each. So it better than cheap parts? Absolutely. However, depending on your tastes you may not find them "best" for you. 
Most good or even great quality capacitors wont remotely be this large, they rarely exceed the size of a C-cell or D-cell sized battery until you get into larger values.

Want to replace a 12mH large iron core with an air core? Be prepared to shell out stacks of cash for a couple 12 gauge coil that also won't fit inside 99% of speakers on the market and probably weighs several lbs.
the difference will be minimal, especially compared to a good quality 16-gauge iron core inductor. especially if it's only playing below 300hz.

Most every speaker on the market will benefit from even upgrading to good budget caps, and air core inductors. Rewiring the whole speaker with good quality wire soldered directly to the drivers and getting rid of steel binding post nuts/tabs will allow for significant improvements in performance.

Want to go further? Sonicaps are a fantastic capacitor that wont break the bank, and they can be bypassed with a small 0.1uF copper foil capacitors to add a bit of body and richness to the sound without spending 4-6x more.
Beyond that would be V-Cap ODAM, but they are also 2-3x the cost of a Sonicap of the same value, but this is where the quality of your drivers and speaker as a whole really start to matter., and you can affect it's tone with copper or silver bypasses
Miflex or Jupiter copper capacitors, go in a different direction altogether, they are very warm with a lot of body and lushness over Sonicaps or V-Caps, but that sound isn't for everyone.

Also don't forget that the further up the chain you go, the more "burn in" is required.
Most cheap & budget caps settle into their sound by 100hours of play time and any changes are fairly subtle.
Mid-range caps like Sonicaps/ClarityCaps need at least 200 hours before they settle, with mild, but gradual shifts over time
High-end caps like Miflex, V-Cap, Jupiter, Duelund caps will all need at least 400+ hours on them, and their tone can shift dramatically over that period. (That's basically a full 3 weeks of 24/7 playing)

Will your speaker benefit from the "best parts"? Sure, but could you get 95% of the way there for 1/5 the cost? Absolutely.

Beyond the theoretical "what if?"
The next thing would be to let us know what your speaker is, and what you're looking to achieve. (what sort of sound signature/performance are you looking to achieve)

Highendfool

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Re: Upgrading components in x-over without changing values
« Reply #8 on: 25 Oct 2022, 02:46 am »
That's kind of the wrong question to ask, as the reality, simply put, "it's complicated." ……
The next thing would be to let us know what your speaker is, and what you're looking to achieve. (what sort of sound signature/performance are you looking to achieve)

Wow! Thanks for the tutorial! I’m going to pass on this one, as I will only get further down the rabbit hole and I can’t afford to!
You did an eloquent job of answering my question though, many thanks,

I’m quite happy with what I have, just wondering if a x-over tweek was worth considering.
Not wondering any longer LOL!
Best wishes.

77SunsetStrip

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Re: Upgrading components in x-over without changing values
« Reply #9 on: 25 Oct 2022, 12:22 pm »
Agree 100% with JCarney.  Have done a couple pairs of speakers with no regrets.  A multi $K pair full of inexpensive parts benefitted the most.  The stock frequency response looked very good and was praised by multiple reviews.  The overall sound quality was accurate, but lacked dynamics.  Did not spend a fortune.  Quality of the parts is important, not necessarily the "audiophile" grade.  After result very pleasing that brought the speakers alive.  They now sound very good at any volume level.

The difference was immediately obvious.  Did they sound better after 200+ hours?  Possibly, but I remain a skeptic regarding "audiophile" grade requiring long burn in to reach full potential.

Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: Upgrading components in x-over without changing values
« Reply #10 on: 25 Oct 2022, 04:50 pm »
Wow! Thanks for the tutorial! I’m going to pass on this one, as I will only get further down the rabbit hole and I can’t afford to!
You did an eloquent job of answering my question though, many thanks,

I’m quite happy with what I have, just wondering if a x-over tweek was worth considering.
Not wondering any longer LOL!
Best wishes.

IMO it's a rabbit hole that is worth exploring, just within reason.
I've had a lot of fun exploring it over the last year and a half, but it's knowing where/how to get the most improvement for your money that really makes the biggest differences.
Most speakers on the market will benefit from upgrades to component quality, especially if it's full of cheap parts as most affordable/budget speakers tend to be.

I've helped to map out crossovers for several speakers at several price points and pick out parts that will improve the performance of the speaker without changing the overall tone or breaking the bank.

E-Zee

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Re: Upgrading components in x-over without changing values
« Reply #11 on: 30 Oct 2022, 03:34 am »


I wouldn't be overly hesitant on this topic of attempting to upgrade existing circuit,  replacing value for value.

You can build a lot of crossover for $150 or less. I've done a few for other people and the reported results have all be quite favorable.

I can't remember the model in the photo above but you will see that the new boards are same size as the original. The purple Clarity caps CSA line used here are very affordable but still good performers,  same as the cheaper miflex bybass used.  Building a pair of new crossovers for a 2 way bookshelf speaker can be done as affordable or as expensive as one desires.  $120 to $150 doesn't get you into all Sonic caps but it can get you a few steps of upgrade above baseline budget parts.