[jnschneyer]

I have an odd question regarding an aspect of the powered subs on the X5 and X3.  Recently, the plate amp on one of my new X5s failed.  I've spoken with Clayton and it's going to be taken care of.  My question is regarding the bass output from my remaining woofer, to wit, has anyone who's been in a, for whatever reason, similar circumstance, found the bass output to be substantially less than the output of the two speakers together?  I know this sounds like "Duh, dude, it's literally half the bass you had before," but to me it sounds like I'm getting far less than 50% of what I had with both speakers.  I would've thought (proving, again, that people without sufficient knowledge shouldn't think) that even one of the woofers would've provided a sizable amount of bass.  I typically don't listen to bass-heavy music, but, just by chance, I put something on the other day and noticed the bass had no force whatsoever, even cranked as high as it would go.  This is far from my experience when both woofers were working.  I'm wondering if there might be something wrong with my other woofer as well, or if it's simply that the bass produced by both speakers is exponentially greater than that of each speaker individually.  Anyway, I'd be curious to know anyone's thoughts who might've experienced something similar.  Thanks.

[Tyson]

In my setup I have one speaker that produces less bass than the other because the left side of my room is open and the right side is closed.  So the right speaker produces more bass.  If I removed the right speaker, I'd get the impression that my left speaker produced 'no bass'.

I do boost the volume on the bass for the left speaker a bit, to compensate. 

Maybe you have a similar issue, where one speaker is in a bass boost area and the other is in a bass null area.

[jnschneyer]

In my setup I have one speaker that produces less bass than the other because the left side of my room is open and the right side is closed.  So the right speaker produces more bass.  If I removed the right speaker, I'd get the impression that my left speaker produced 'no bass'.

I do boost the volume on the bass for the left speaker a bit, to compensate. 

Maybe you have a similar issue, where one speaker is in a bass boost area and the other is in a bass null area.

Thanks, Tyson. I thought about that, or something similar. It’s actually a little closer to the wall and less open on the side of the working woofer, but I know there can be other factors than can contribute to creating a null. Until the one amp failed, I’ve had no reason to question the bass output of my X5s, but the dramatically reduced output with only the one woofer has given me pause. No sense in drawing conclusions until the other speaker is repaired, though. I was just curious if anyone had had a similar experience or if there was a sonic principle at work of which, among many, I was ignorant.

[Tyson]

You could move the working speaker over to the spot where the broken speaker is and run it there to see if it makes it sound louder.

[lazbisme]

the crossover puts the notes below 90Hz into the bottom speaker with the plate amp so the other 12" speaker is really midrange and high bass. The lowest signal does not go to the middle speaker

[DaveWin88]

the crossover puts the notes below 90Hz into the bottom speaker with the plate amp so the other 12" speaker is really midrange and high bass. The lowest signal does not go to the middle speaker

Even the M series is the same I believe. The M6 on their page said it is a two and a half way.

[jnschneyer]

the crossover puts the notes below 90Hz into the bottom speaker with the plate amp so the other 12" speaker is really midrange and high bass. The lowest signal does not go to the middle speaker

I get that, or at least I think I do. What I’m saying is I’m getting very little bass out of my remaining functioning woofer, seemingly far less than half of what I had when both woofers were working. I expected there to still be considerable bass even from the one woofer alone, but that is definitely not the case. I don’t know if it’s a room issue, a speaker issue, or no issue at all and that all will be well when the other woofer is restored. I was just surprised and a little alarmed at how little bass my single woofer produces.

[DaveWin88]

I get that, or at least I think I do. What I’m saying is I’m getting very little bass out of of my remaining functioning woofer, seemingly far less than half of what had when both woofers were working. I expected there to still be considerable bass even from the one woofer alone, but that is definitely not the case. I don’t know if it’s a room issue, a speaker issue, or no issue at all and that all will be well when the other woofer is restored. I was just surprised and a little alarmed at how little bass my single woofer produces.

Try disconnecting the tweeter once if you really want to be shocked (M series) The last two octaves are a ton of the bass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su-pYZYAljM

[jnschneyer]

You could move the working speaker over to the spot where the broken speaker is and run it there to see if it makes it sound louder.

I’ll try that. It would at least confirm or eliminate the room as a major contributing factor. I’ll publish my findings tomorrow.

[jnschneyer]

Try disconnecting the tweeter once if you really want to be shocked (M series) The last two octaves are a ton of the bass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su-pYZYAljM

Ha! It’ll take a braver man than I to conduct that experiment.  I’ll take your word for it.

[MarvinTheMartian]

What you are hearing make sense.
The hypex fusion plate amp is not just a straight amplifier, it also uses dsp to apply low-pass crossover + dipole equalization / bass boost.
So, think of the X series as more of a true three way than the stated 2.5 way.

Without the plate amp you are listening to the passive mid-bass driver 'au natural'.
Shawn

[Tyson]

X3 and X5 are 3 way speakers with powered bass sections.  The X4 is a 2.5 way fully passive.

[MarvinTheMartian]

I stand corrected, the Spatial website does specify 'Active-Passive Hybrid 3-way' for the X3 and X5.
At such a low frequency, that must be a pretty big value $$$ high pass cap on the bottom end of the mid bass driver.
Or does Clayton rely on the natural mid bass driver roll off to accomplish the same effect? 

Thinking outside the box : )
Shawn

[Tyson]

I stand corrected, the Spatial website does specify 'Active-Passive Hybrid 3-way' for the X3 and X5.
At such a low frequency, that must be a pretty big value $$$ high pass cap on the bottom end of the mid bass driver.
Or does Clayton rely on the natural mid bass driver roll off to accomplish the same effect? 

Thinking outside the box : )
Shawn

The top part of the X3 is run full range and the bass woofer is just brought in to fill in where the midrange driver naturally rolls off (about 90 hz).

[jnschneyer]

You could move the working speaker over to the spot where the broken speaker is and run it there to see if it makes it sound louder.

I gave it a shot, in the interest of science, but it produced no real change.  If anything, the bass may have been even a tad bit weaker, but not so much that you (I) could say so with confidence.  I'm really curious to hear the bass once the busted amp has been replaced and I've got the full complement of wooofers going again.  I typically listen to jazz and classical, so, except for the more extreme notes of a pipe organ, which don't figure much in my repertoire, I haven't really missed the deeper bass.  But, as I said, it was alarming to hear how diminished the bass was with the single woofer once I did listen to some bass-heavy, hip-hop-esque (Eminem, Macklemore, Flo Rida, etc), light and totally without visceral impact, like half the music was missing, which is the opposite of what I remember the bass being like with both woofers, which was, while not boomy or bloated, impactful, physical, I could feel it.  I'm hoping having the busted woofer fixed will restore the bass to its former glory.  If not, I may have to rethink things.  We shall see.  Anyway, many thanks for the suggestion.  Swapping the speakers' positions at least clarified that the room isn't responsible for this particular issue.     

[glenmschneider@gmail.com]

So I dont have the physics behind it, but if I turn off one of the active subs on my X5 (ie via the rocker switch), I totally concur with what you are hearing.

Glen

[jnschneyer]

So I dont have the physics behind it, but if I turn off one of the active subs on my X5 (ie via the rocker switch), I totally concur with what you are hearing.

Glen

Hi, Glen.  Thanks for the input.  Glad to know there's at least some anecdotal confirmation that I'm not simply imagining things.  Aural memory is so unreliable that I was beginning to wonder if I was misremembering the bass the X5s produced before my amp mishap.  Like you, I lack the knowledge to account for the physics of it, but I do wonder if there's something about the two woofers acting in concert that has some sort of exponential effect on bass power and extension, as I know, in my narrow-ish room (15'), when both subs were working, I actually had to turn the bass down with some music or it, despite the open baffle design, overloaded the space.  Anyway, thanks again for the sanity-restoring report.  I'll post the results when my amp is fixed.

Josh

[Mr. Big]

One reason I never considered active-powered speakers is once one fails you have to ship the speaker back, In 40 years, I never had an amp go bad while I owned it, I've had a tube go bad in my amps but that has been in. Passive for me always.

[mrotino332]

For the X series you don't have to ship the speaker back if for some reason an amp fails, it is an easy drop in replacement.  I'm sure it's rare but any electronics could fail potentially.  In the twenty five years I've been into high end audio I've had one repair on an amplifier and one repair on a DAC which isn't bad.  My PS audio powerplant P300 is still going strong however I've recently just replaced it with the newer Stellar 3 just because I wanted something newer.

[jnschneyer]

One reason I never considered active-powered speakers is once one fails you have to ship the speaker back, In 40 years, I never had an amp go bad while I owned it, I've had a tube go bad in my amps but that has been in. Passive for me always.

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding, but I would’ve thought that 40 years with no amp failure would argue in favor of active speakers, no?  At least in terms of risk.  Still, there’s no question that having more parts in anything means an increased possibility of something breaking or failing.  I actually had my Classe CA-5300 fail on me twice, once under warranty, once out of warranty and, after sending it back to Canada for a diagnosis, at such an absurd cost to repair it I left it there.  While I have no doubt both my Classe and X5 amps failing are statistical anomalies, it also, statistically speaking, had to happen to someone, and it seems I’m one of the lucky few whose anomalous experience exists to prove the rule Mr Big’s 40 year good fortune.  Luckily, I live in Salt Lake City where Spatials are built, so no shipping necessary.  Here’s hoping I’ve done my duty as a servant to statistics and can now take up residence in the realm of those to whom such things don’t happen.