OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3

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Danny Richie

Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #80 on: 9 Oct 2022, 05:39 pm »
Danny, the problem is the amp runs out of steam with bass management. This is not a desirable thing for many people that want to implement it. Lets face it, it is the future and progression of audio like it or don't its improving by leaps and bounds yearly. I have a "black" amp and hear nothing but harmony in the system, clearly not as advanced as yours nor do I have the luxury of having a large dedicated listening room that even goes beyond your black curtain bordering your listening space. You have all the latitude to make things perfect. So perhaps this would be something to mention in the kit literature. Sorry.

Bass management is built into the amp already. 

Woodsage

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #81 on: 9 Oct 2022, 05:39 pm »
Sorry if that’s a been answered but how high are you crossing the subs?

In my experience, this happens when the subs are up over 100 Hz. I found running them lower,  60 - 80 Hz, worked best. When you run them lower you can increase the gain of the plate amps without taxing the woofer. Pretty much the same as any other subs I have run over the years.

On my three builds using these amps I drove the amps off the speaker level inputs. I had the high level input resistance changed by Rythik so I could drive the amps to full volume off the speaker outputs of relatively low wattage tube amps.

I have no experience running them with DSP.

YMMV

Danny Richie

Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #82 on: 9 Oct 2022, 05:46 pm »
I don't think no-rez is going to do a thing at the 40hz-20hz region. I know a lot of people use it, and for good reason if you're going with say a 120hz crossover point.

I love the way the system sounds corrected, not a huge fan with my limited placement and without Dirac Live 3 engaged. But yes you are correct they will play about three decibels louder with Dirac defeated, problem is the synergy of the speakers mating properly in the phase domain and also in the magnitude domain sounds 100% better with Dirac engaged. Just look at the frequency response I posted, if you don't think that sounds good... It sounds amazing! Not bragging on my gear, just pointing out the efficacy of bass management done correctly works extremely well.

I'm thinking of ways to still utilize the servo section of the amp but not the amp itself at some point and get the NAD M22 to drive the subs. It would not even be fair to compare the two amps. Then I would have all the headroom I would need. Rythmik should simply make a class D amp with a solid switching power supply but I realize that is expensive to make one that will last. Anyway, that's my two cents on the subject. Simply not a audiophile match up in my world.

No Rez will tighten up the bass and improve the response regardless of high high the subs cross  to your main speakers.

The A370 amps have a phase control right there on the amp. So no additional phase controls are needed.

If you think that system sounds amazing now in a room with zero room treatment with bare corners and a big bare wall, then you are really going to be amazed when you actually treat the room.

The A370 amps have a ton of headroom and power. You don't have a headroom problem. You have a malfunction somewhere, and it still points to a correct wiring issue. 

Danny Richie

Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #83 on: 9 Oct 2022, 05:49 pm »
I should point out the clipping starts at 80% volume. Again, trying to be fair the Amp will produce 444 peak watts per channel driving the M3's being a 4ohm speaker, which is a very efficient combination I will admit.

The Super V that I posted a picture of has about 6db higher sensitivity than your speakers, and the lower woofer keep up easily with headroom to spare.

Danny Richie

Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #84 on: 9 Oct 2022, 05:51 pm »
Quote
I am hooked up using the pre amp RCA's with splitters from the stereo sub out's on the Int.

Never use the servo subs RCA output loop to your main amps.

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #85 on: 9 Oct 2022, 05:54 pm »
Your skirting the issue here Danny. Again the last video is with NO DIRAC and NO CABLES.

Danny Richie

Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #86 on: 9 Oct 2022, 05:55 pm »
Well this is with Dirac OFF, NO CABLES. Plugged into (pre amp outputs).  Settings on amp are (28hz mid control). I have tried just about everything. Has anyone tried to pull their amps to see if I'm the only one in the universe or do people not want to know ? Sorry, don't know what else to do or say about these amps driving this speaker design. It's great, just don't push them to realistic levels in my opinion. Danny, get the amp that will drive these things with some serious headroom, go class D with some real wattage and grip. Its a sub amp, even you wont be able to discern the difference. At least they will play with some authority.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/PhB9eT79jdYt8WWG7

You don't need another amp. You need to figure out what is causing the problem.

Danny Richie

Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #87 on: 9 Oct 2022, 06:01 pm »
I really think this amp would be MORE than sufficient if it were not an OB design. The Servo portion in the OB design is taxing the amp with a serious amount of correction power consumption that otherwise could be used to drive the speakers. Disconnect the servo leads and see what your woofers do. They will reach X-Max with VERY little power, this is obvious. If the same amp were in a sealed enclosure or ported for that matter, it would help control the woofer with just the compliance of the enclosure not even needing the servo portion for the most part. I'm sorry but this amp is not designed to play at realistic levels without clipping, it can't, it was never engineered for loud playback with an OB sub design. IMHO

The Qts of these woofers in an open baffle are the same as the sealed version in a box. Compliance is not an issue.

The amps are not working harder in the open baffle configuration either.

These will play back to significant levels in the 100 plus db ranges in good sized rooms with no issue, flat to 20Hz, and with no bottoming out or amp clipping.

You still need to figure out the problem rather than blaming the design. We have literally hundreds of these systems out there, and no one else has had these issues.

jn316

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #88 on: 9 Oct 2022, 06:25 pm »
Is there anybody in Pheonix who has these subs and amps that could help this guy out? Either bring your amps to his place and swap them out, or have him go to your place and hear how these can indeed get very loud without clipping. It's not a design error so something else is going on.

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #89 on: 9 Oct 2022, 08:20 pm »
Just wanted to point out a little about myself regarding audio. I am not new to audio, I was reading speaker builder magazine well before the internet and immersed in the subject my whole life, I am now 55. This is a build I did when I was a young man, about 27 or so. I wanted to build a multi channel electronic crossover network with trim pots, per channel for at the time was a dedicated home theater setup.

This was a Marchand Electronics individual board kit you could by via snail mail back in the day. All the components are in a bag and you get a blank board with each. I Soldered every component on every board including trim pot boards. Cut my own sheet metal, welded and powder the chassis, you had to make your own.

Anyway, more than anything I just wanted to point out, I'm a little handy with electronics and the workings of audio. Just don't why I can't read a simple schematic and wire two woofers correct ??? Anyway...

LINK
https://photos.app.goo.gl/EGqPeJ1FULEijAYv9

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #90 on: 9 Oct 2022, 08:23 pm »
By today's standard its a good door stop.

nickd

Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #91 on: 9 Oct 2022, 08:24 pm »
I have used Danny’s open baffle subs and now use a par of the sealed version with Lyngdorf Room Perfect DSP.
Both systems will play crazy loud. I ran into a similar situation once when demoing my Super V with the open baffle subs. A wire had come loose from the servo coil on one of the woofers. Caused low output and woofer bottoming. It is critical the servo coils are wired correctly for the system to work as intended.

Hope you get it working correctly. They are the best subs in either configuration that I know of.

77SunsetStrip

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #92 on: 9 Oct 2022, 08:48 pm »
Sorry, to answer your question. Yes both lights are flashing when driven to 80% volume give or take. I believe one is the input stage, the other the output stage ? Danny ?

Full Stop.  If one of the LEDs blinking is on the input stage, is that not an indication of a problem with the input signal?  Anybody familiar with Rhythmic amp please weigh in.

If the amp is indicating it does not like the input signal, not an open baffle design problem, not a lack of Watts.  The reason for a blinking LED associated with the input has to be understood and/or solved before going any further.   

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #93 on: 9 Oct 2022, 09:08 pm »
I'm assuming the input stage is being overdriven at some point by my integrated amplifier.

77SunsetStrip

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #94 on: 9 Oct 2022, 09:24 pm »
I'm assuming the input stage is being overdriven at some point by my integrated amplifier.

Agree, assuming one of the LEDs is on the input side.  Why is the input stage complaining needs to be solved before expecting the amp or system to operate properly. It would make sense for the amp output to clip, essentially self protection, if there is something it does not like about the input signal.  Garbage in - garbage out principle.  I can't find anything on the Rhythmic site that talks about LEDs, what they mean, and how to troubleshoot. 

Maybe somebody that knows will weight in, otherwise have to get an answer from Rhythmic.

tom739

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #95 on: 9 Oct 2022, 11:21 pm »
Can you post a photo of the sub amp settings. Could't hurt to double check....

NoahH

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #96 on: 10 Oct 2022, 05:07 am »
I'm assuming the input stage is being overdriven at some point by my integrated amplifier.

I checked my plates and don't have those indicator LEDs.

I still think trying a different input is worthwhile. Just a 40 hz tone from your phone through a 3.5mm to rca adapter, with the gain on the plates maxed out will tell you a lot. You ramp it slowly and know exactly what you are putting in.

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #97 on: 10 Oct 2022, 12:28 pm »
I will take a pic of the plate amp settings and post today. Also going to just start emailing Brian at Rythmik to just jump to the end of this whole thing. I already know what the answer will be. I'm already searching for new amps but seems as though Rythmik has the servo control market sewed up. But I will find a solution. I checked the wiring again last night. Both woofers are to move forward together right? Regardless if they are backwards in relation to one another? The bottom woofer moves toward my front wall as the top woofer moves toward me at the MLP? right?? I just want to be clear.

 

EdwardT

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #98 on: 10 Oct 2022, 12:51 pm »
I do not have servo subs but I do know that the woofer cones should move in the same direction, i.e. when you face the array all of the cones should move toward you or away from you in unison. Otherwise your bass pulses are out of phase and cancel each other. If your speakers are facing opposite directions then the one facing away should be wired out of phase to make them move in a common phase.

77SunsetStrip

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #99 on: 10 Oct 2022, 01:00 pm »
I do not have servo subs but I do know that the woofer cones should move in the same direction, i.e. when you face the array all of the cones should move toward you or away from you in unison. Otherwise your bass pulses are out of phase and cancel each other. If your speakers are facing opposite directions then the one facing away should be wired out of phase to make them move in a common phase.

If you are letting the M3 speakers play full range, the subs need to be in phase with them.  Otherwise the speaker and subs are fighting each other.  You might have to adjust the subs phase to find the sweet spot where everything blends.