AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Planar Circle => Topic started by: SteveFord on 7 Oct 2010, 01:22 am
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Apogee Caliper
Stereophile Nov 1986
http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/911/index.html
Apogee Caliper Signature
Positive Feedback Online, Issue 14
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/calipers.htm
Apogee Centaur
Audiophile
http://www.apogeespeakers.com/reviews/centaur_audiophile.htm
Home Theater Review, February 1991
http://hometheaterreview.com/apogee-centaur-electronstatic-loudspeakers-reviewed-/
Apogee Diva
Absolute Sound Nov/Dec 1988
http://www.apogeespeakers.com/reviews/diva_theabsoutesound_novdec1988.htm
Best Of Audio
http://www.apogeespeakers.com/reviews/a_search_for_the_ultimate_speaker_bestofaudio.htm
HiFi News June 1988
http://www.apogeespeakers.com/reviews/diva_hifinews_june1988.htm
Stereophile August 1988
http://www.apogeespeakers.com/reviews/diva_stereophile_august1988.htm
Apogee Duetta II
Stereophile April 1986
http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/848/
Apogee Duetta Signature
HiFi News and Record Review, Dec 1988
http://www.apogeespeakers.com/reviews/duetta_sig_hifinews_dec1988.htm
Apogee Scintilla
Hometheater Review January 1987
http://hometheaterreview.com/apogee-scintilla-loudspeakers-reviewed/
Apogee Stage and Mini-Grand
Stereophile August 1990
http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/789/
Apogee Stage Electrostatic
Hometheater Review February 1990
http://hometheaterreview.com/apogee-stage-electrostatic-loudspeakers-reviewed/
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Great stuff..........I like this from the Scintilla review:
"'It certainly was a heady time for all involved. I have always hoped that someone with more money and ego than brains would pick up the fallen sword and bring Apogee speakers back to life. However, I have come to believe that it is wishful thinking and meant to be a relic of the past.'
Well, that did happen...........http://www.apogeeacoustics.com/ (http://www.apogeeacoustics.com/)
Dave
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42983)
(http://)
The Apogee Scintillas, Stages and the Hill Plasmas working together. Using each speaker in its best
range utilizing xovers.
(http://)
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Duetta Sig review from Hi-Fi News & Record Review Dec 1988
http://www.apogeespeakers.com/reviews/duetta_sig_hifinews_dec1988.htm
This review kick started the process which eventually led to upgrading from Slant 8s to True Soundwork's version (Duetta Ultimate). :D
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Hello Apog, Your room looks great! I love your extensive use of the GIK panels and corner bass absorbers...I'm glad I'm not the only Apogee owner not afraid to thoroughly treat his room. I have "stock" Duetta Sigs but will inevitably be sending them to Rich someday to be updated w/ new fresh drivers and ...whatever seems prudent. I LOVE my Duettas and couldn't imagine any other speakers... What are your room dimensions? I am 13' x 18' x 7' sidewalls sloping up to to a 9' centerline height...Great listening chair in your pics too... And a Duetta "Ultimate" is simply "THE Ultimate". Congratulations to you.
My system is on A'gon under "My Transporter Room"...I've done a few more updates since the pics there but you can get an idea. Thanks for starting this post!
Best regards...Lissnr
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Wonder why this technology has not reappeared? If it should it would be out of my reach but some guys could trip. Best deal on planers has to be Magnepan but the old Apogee's were lovely sounding. Apogee is gone, right? Cryin shame.
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The Apogee brand was purchased about a decade ago by a guy (Graz) in Australia. Graz continues to supply and improve the drivers. He will still sell the tweeter ribbons to a DIYer to replace the old drivers, but will only sell bass panel ribbons to approved Apogee repair shops, since they are so difficult to align and properly restore (and one oops means a ruined driver).
http://www.apogeespeakers.com/ (http://www.apogeespeakers.com/)
There's also an Apogee look-alike (Analysis Audio) on the market right now. They look damned similar but claim to have somewhat different technology. They certainly are more efficient, and as you suspect, much more expensive.
http://www.analysisaudio.com/ (http://www.analysisaudio.com/)
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Look alikes is far as it goes. Different design useing magneto - static membrane. The sound is different as well. The Analysis being more dynamic and linear. Not as colored as the Apogees which are warm in character " the Anti Maggie" Maggies can be bright or thin Apogees not. It all in the execution [ system]
Which is better ?? None just different. Different strokes for different folks.
A disclaimer, we are dealers for Analysis.
charles
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Hello Apog, Your room looks great! I love your extensive use of the GIK panels and corner bass absorbers...I'm glad I'm not the only Apogee owner not afraid to thoroughly treat his room. I have "stock" Duetta Sigs but will inevitably be sending them to Rich someday to be updated w/ new fresh drivers and ...whatever seems prudent. I LOVE my Duettas and couldn't imagine any other speakers... What are your room dimensions? I am 13' x 18' x 7' sidewalls sloping up to to a 9' centerline height...Great listening chair in your pics too... And a Duetta "Ultimate" is simply "THE Ultimate". Congratulations to you.
My system is on A'gon under "My Transporter Room"...I've done a few more updates since the pics there but you can get an idea. Thanks for starting this post!
Best regards...Lissnr
Hi. I don't want to derail this review references thread too much, but thanks for the kind words. The diffusors are GIK; the rest of the treatment is from Real Traps.
I think it's pretty much a necessity to treat small rooms like mine: 15' L x 13' 5" W x 9' H. I can strongly recommend Rich regarding new ribbons / panels & am in total agreement about loving the Duettas.
Also, I checked out your transporter room & thread. That's an amazing number of hours you put in both in creating the room and equipment research. Sounds like it was worth it though. Enjoy your system.
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Hello SteveFord, Apog and all, I thought it was about time to give a worthwhile update on my system status. As I had mentioned on my A'gon 'Virtual System': "My Transporter Room"' I was hit hard by hurricane Sandy and while I managed to save all of my gear thanks to believing the weather warnings, my room itself was severely hit and suffered extensively. Ultimately I had to replace everything from 4' down [ including] the floor as well as the wiring, outlets, and of course all the sheetrock layers, etc...it was truly a legitimate catastrophe and one that has taken me the best part of 6 months to finally put back together. As one fortunate aspect it was sheer fate/coincidence that I had decided to take the plunge and actually had already shipped my beloved Duetta Sigs to True Sound Works where Rich Murry was about to begin their complete restoration procedure. Fast forward to today and the room and my rebuilt Duettas are now together again. And sounding awesome! I will be posting some fresh pics and more updates soon. All I can say is "It's great to be back AND sounding better than ever!"
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Good deal on saving the gear.
Yeah, we like pictures!
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Ahhh, err , Pics ........... :)
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=83424)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=83425)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=83426)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=83427)
Sorry for the wait. Here are my new [completely rebuilt by True Sound Works] Duetta Signatures in my choice of custom paint color...I chose a medium gray to match my room...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=83422)
t
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=83423)
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Big CONGRATS!!! on the Ultimates. Love the paint. The highest compliment I can give to the Ultimates is that if there exists anything at all in the music being played that I might like, the speaker will find a way for me to hear it. My opinion is that aural happiness is personal and results from successful integration of one's musical tastes, sound preferences, room & equipment. Hopefully, everything has come together for you. :D
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Many years ago I had a pair of Duetta signatures that I bought used for $2K and a Counterpoint SA220 to drive them. I liked them a lot but found the image to be unfocused. sold the pair for $2,500. Looking back I realize how much money I would have saved, how much enjoyment I would have gotten, how much easier life would have been had I just kept them and performed upgrades/updates along the way. I think a good pair of subwoofers would have helped as well. I am sure you enjoy them very much!
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Thank you for the enthusiastic response to my updated TSW Duetta Sigs and I agree with you completely that once you find the speaker that "Reaches you" (an old 1960's saying??) then making it all come together with the rest of the equipment really is that much more exciting and satisfying.
As for my speakers I couldn't be more pleased with all the work done and to me they certainly represent my "Ultimates" but officially Rich at TSW actually has an even MORE extensive edition he calls his "Ultimates" and which apparently,somehow, go even further. Initially when I spoke to him about the rebuild he did mention that option to me but honestly I felt that his "complete restoration version" [if you can call it that] would suit me just fine (and honestly the additional cost to go 'Ultimate' was quite considerable). As you can see and imagine, I am quite pleased with mine.
Apparently the "Ultimates" do even more?? though I don't know exactly where/how. "My" version included all the main aspects you can see and (and not so readily see) such as ALL completely new 'Graz sourced' drivers, completely new crossovers, socks & grilles, binding posts and wiring, frame stiffening and of course paint of your choice (did I forget anything??). He also assures me they are built to such a level that I should never have any concerns about their continued superb performance and reliability until well after my grand-kids have enjoyed growing up with them too (don't have any of those yet but he made his point).
As for performance aspects I'm afraid to begin here as I should probably compose a more serious/formal review (and will certainly do so in the near future) but suffice to say that virtually EVERYTHING you have ever admired in your favorite Apogee (or even favorite "planar" ... or do I dare say favorite speaker of any type???) ... you will hear has been taken to the Nth degree in this rebuild...Do you believe it's possible...[I'm telling you IT IS] to achieve a smooth, even, completely coherent tonal balance combined with instantaneous transients, dynamic impact 'off the charts', highs that sing like Angels and bass extension that rattles metal garbage can lids (remember Metal garbage cans??)... (IF you have the power to do it).
These guys simply sound like the best marriage you can make between all the virtues of a planar and whatever you thought you had to miss out on by not having dynamic drivers...(again: amplifier dependent)...you CAN have it all.
OK, I'm starting to sound more like an advertisement than a satisfied customer and that's not what I'm here for but if I've made my point that I couldn't be happier with my decision and that's what matters for now. My only advice to anyone on the fence about investing the resources to have your Apogees reborn...all I can say is IMHO once you hear what they can truly do then all those ads in the big magazines for the ultra high end speakers (at 3X, 5X, or 10+X the price or more) won't interest you anymore (not that I have heard them all because of course I haven't but I get to a lot of shows and have heard a lot of exceptional systems in dealerships and private homes over the years). A pair of these will put you smack IN the league of/if not better than the Magicos, the YG's, the Rockports, the big Wilsons, the Raidho's...you get the idea...and they do it all AS A Planar!
OK, have to wrap it here. BTW Simon W. the Counterpoint SA220 amp was one of the best amps in its day to drive the Duettas back then...I was a big Counterpoint fan years ago when I started with their pre-amps; First an SA 1000, then the 3000, then the 5000 and an SA 100 amp as well as their DA-10 and DA-11 transport and processor...a classic 'hybrid family' theme that did a lot very well. See if you can find another pair of Apogees (preferably within one days' driving distance from where you live) then send them to Rich...
You will be DONE.
Sorry about the rambling guys...BTW it's nice to have this forum! Happy Lissn'n!
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Well, that is a wonderful point in time when you can just sit back and listen to music and not worry about the gear. I feel I have reached that point with my Gallo Ref 3.5 and Van Alstine U70.
The MOSFET Counterpoint amps had a tendency to blow up, I started out with an SA-20, then it blew up, hence the SA-220. it was a nice match for the Apogees.
So, what did this whole process cost/ What is left from the original speakers? Looks like everything is swapped out but the frames?
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As for my speakers I couldn't be more pleased with all the work done and to me they certainly represent my "Ultimates" but officially Rich at TSW actually has an even MORE extensive edition he calls his "Ultimates" and which apparently,somehow, go even further. Initially when I spoke to him about the rebuild he did mention that option to me but honestly I felt that his "complete restoration version" [if you can call it that] would suit me just fine (and honestly the additional cost to go 'Ultimate' was quite considerable). As you can see and imagine, I am quite pleased with mine.
Apparently the "Ultimates" do even more?? though I don't know exactly where/how.
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I think the biggest difference regarding Rich's 'Ultimates' is that he replaces the magnets with stronger magnets and ensures they are matched and properly aligned. I'm not technical enough for it to be meaningful so never asked for clarification re 'stronger'.
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Here's a link for any other Apogee owners who may be thinking of going this route:
http://www.truesoundworksaudio.com/index.html
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Thanks for sharing about your Signature rebuild. Very nice indeed.
Can you share if you had bought the speakers and sent them for rebuild, or just bought a pair rebuilt? And of course everyone wants to know if they can afford such a pony so if you don't mind talking price we are all ears.
Are your speakers more eff. than a stock pair? If so, do you know by how much?
Thanks for sharing any of your top secret military info.
Rocket_Ronny
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I don't know how much qualifies as top secret but here goes:
My first set of Apogees were Mini Grands in very nice condition. I drove approximately 5 hours to audition them, then buy and bring them home. I brought my amps (VTL MB-125 monos) with me to see if they would work with them and they did NOT. But I wanted the Mini G's so much and they were the private pair of an audio store owner so he took them in trade + $$$ (undisclosed amount due to the top secret nature of this thread) and I returned home with the speakers AND a mint pair of Classe Model 25 solid state amps (250 per channel each) which he was bi-amping with.
Kept those a few years then moved to a bigger room and celebrated by locating a mint pair of Duetta Sigs (and another long drive...almost 6 hrs each way, to retrieve them). They were 2nd owner, who was best friends with the original owner from the day they left the dealership so he knew them perfectly and they were.
I found a pair of Calipers down the line, while still enjoying the Duettas...they needed some TLC and were quite reasonable but their drivers were all good so I thought they would make a nice 'back-up' just to have...as I was so hooked on the Apogee sound already. They were only a 3 hr drive (plus several tolls) but were the first pair I purchased that did NOT have original boxes. So, I took all the measurements off the website, bought some plywood and some 2"x4"s and built crates for them which I hauled with me when I went to get them. I listened before boxing them and they were well worth the asking price so I took them.
Fast forward :I was having some audio-buddies over one day and one of them fell in love with the my Duettas and happened to have a hi powered solid state amp in his system. No, I wouldn't give those up but I asked him if he was a little handy and told him I'd let him have my 'back-up' Calipers for a good price. Good deal...he cleaned them up and enjoyed them thoroughly.
Then he started hinting how my Duetta Sigs would be even better for his room. All along they were playing flawlessly at my place but the only caveat I ever had about them was they had started off as Duetta 2's (then had been sent back to factory for full upgrade to signatures) but they had left the older style wooden base feet (which in retrospect are probably even more stable than the newer metal style). But I had always thought in the back of my mind that if another truly mint pair became available...I would like them with the latest feet... Fast fwd again and I made a deal with my buddy that if he would pay me what I did for them (over $2500 but less than $3K...classified information) AND I could find another mint pair (with the "new feet")...then I'd go get the new ones, absorb the hassles of retrieving them...(since I was so good at this already??) and then sell him mine.
Well, the best laid plans....suffice to say it was a HUGE event acquiring the supposed mint pair... I promised my friend mine and delivered them to him AND helped him set them up...(yes, He IS local)... but when I finally got the new ones to my place (NO, I didn't drive this time...I hired a carrier and wow what an undertaking that story was)... but when I finally hooked them up it took all of 23 seconds to hear both bass panels buzzing like bumble bees in a tin can!!
Enter Rich at True Sound Works... I had always promised myself that "maybe...someday" if I could ever swing the costs and down time...that it would be really cool to get my Apogees completely redone. Well, my hand was just forced so off they went.
And here we are today...looking and sounding better than dreamed of and finally being all I was looking for. How much? well let's say that soup to nuts it's somewhere in the neighborhood of twice my original investment...+/- a bit and well worth every penny. Highly recommended as Rich Murry is truly an artist and a professional who sure as hell knows his way around these 'Sacred monoliths' I / we have become so fond of...
There's a LOT more storytelling but I realize this isn't the place to go into it with anymore detail...though I may do some kind of serious review and maybe something of an "associated equipment" story line... Whatever. Happy Lissn'n
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I am the one who bought Grant's old Duetta Sig's/ I haven't heard Grant's new rebuilt Duetta's yet (he's keeping them isolated until he has the system humming perfectly), so I can;t comment on the improvement or difference. I can tell you about my "upgrade" of his old Duetta Sig's.
Here's what I did ...
- removed the crossover from the speaker and put them in a separate outboard box
- potted the inductors
- replaced the caps with a variety of others in various values (e.g. Auricaps, Sonicaps, Russian PIO's, V-Cap teflons, original Spragues)
- updated the resistors to Mills
- removed the H-M-L switch (big improvement getting this out of the circuit)
These upgrades have these singing beautifully now (not that they didn;t sound good before, but they are so much more transparent and dynamic and wonderful now).
Enjoy,
Bob
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I forgot to mention the efficiency of the updated Duettas ...I had asked Rich if they are any easier to drive after his rebuild and he said yes, they should be about 87db now and they will maintain their same impedance of about 3.8 ohms. He mentioned how so many owners use solid state amps for their obvious current delivery and especially noteworthy bass delivery but that they should now be a relatively easy load for any competent tube amp outfitted with 4 ohm taps. I know Rich can supply Audio Research equipment and tells me his new favorite tube amp is the Reference 75 which he actually used during the break-in / trial period of my speakers and mentioned it was an absolutely fantastic match! For myself personally, contrary to all my previous talk about the Classe Model 25 SS amp(s)...I'm a total tube amp guy from ages ago and very quickly after landing my original Duettas I again put tube power back into their blessed ribbon hearts...After a complex bi-amplified Dax 1 combination of Conrad Johnson Premier 12 monos (140 wpc) handling the bass panels and a Cary SA 280 V12R F1 Edition (100 wpc) handling the M/Twtr ribbons I have simplified somewhat for the time being and am running just the Cary at the moment which works very very well with the new D.Sigs... Of course, I'm currently awaiting a pair of high powered tube monos which are due in a few weeks and will likely add some considerable punch at approximately 200 Wpc but that's a whole other story... Suffice to say that Yes, they are not a particularly difficult load to drive butas always, more power is generally better than less. Enjoy!
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Cool story.
Back when Apogee first came on the scene with their statement speakers I was going to buy them and biamp with 2 Electron Kinetics Eagle 7as, I already owned one amp. Then I got out of audio for quite a long time. I suppose if I had bought the Apogees back then I would still have them today and saved countless dollars and time messing around with speakers.
Rocket_Ronny
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Hello ,
Which apogees, the Eagle 7a will not drive 1 ohm loads its mostly an 8/4 ohm load type amplfier..
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So my daughter and I went over to Grant's last night to hear the new broken in, totally refurbished and updated Apogee Duetta's. First, some back story. Grant has always loved a lush, beautiful and blooming sound on his old Apogees, which I now own. I updated them to be more transparent, faster, tighter sounding. So I had the more open sounding system, IMO at least, but my room isn't as large as his and I couldn't achieve the soundstage that he gets in his space.
Now, with his new Apogees, Grant has gone "full tilt bozo" in the opposite direction. These speakers are fast, fast, fast, open, tight, detailed and exemplary in every way. They make my formally "open" system sound slow and lacking in detail. And this is with his old Cary amp, which is usually thought of as a warm sounding brand. I think maybe some of this might be attributable to the Oppo CD player he was using. I can't wait to hear them again once his new DAC (Lampizator) and new amps arrive and are broken in. These updated Apogees made soft female vocals and piano sound "THERE", and rocking blues sound "LIVE". I really believe they actually do it all very well indeed. Not something many people can say about any speaker.
My daughter came back and we double checked our hearing on my system. She said, "it sounds great dad, but now that I've heard Grants speakers I know it can sound better yet". She then went upstairs and told my wife that I need a bigger room. My wife agreed, just as soon as she gets a bigger house. :duh:
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Face it, BobM, you're doomed.
At least mine only wants a remodeled kitchen.
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Which apogees
It was one of the first Apogees, I don't know the model, around 1982 if memory serves. From what I knew the Eagle 7A could easily drive a 2 ohm load. I forget what power it was to put out into 2 ohms but it was a lot.
This mating of 2 Eagle 7a and Apogees was only my desires at the time. I did not go to the next phase of implementation.
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Hello RR,
Late in responding , I Tried the Eagle 7a before , it will not drive 1 ohm scinnies or the Fullrange speakers, not stable at all. Interesting in hearing from others regarding what current or past amplifiers have worked for them on 1 ohm scinnies or the fullrange ...
Regards ...
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Hi, folks Brand new here, but long-time Audiogon and original Apogee forum member. Back in the Duetta fold with IIs, and wondering about active crossovers...anyone?
Many thanks,
Mark
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Apogee Centaur
Audiophile
http://www.apogeespeakers.com/reviews/centaur_audiophile.htm
Home Theater Review, February 1991
http://hometheaterreview.com/apogee-centaur-electronstatic-loudspeakers-reviewed-/
The Apogee Centaur was also reviewed by Anthony H. Cordesman in Issue 77 of The Absolute Sound February/ March 1992...
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Hi Mark, welcome to the forum. Duettas 2's! You have really nice speakers and we both have a lot in common. A couple of quick questions first: How big is your room? What are your main electronics? ( tube, ss or ?) any room treatments or serious limitations to spkr placement? As far as active crossovers ( I'm a big fan and believer as I have done it this way through Apogees for many years) are you simply looking for more power out of necessity or are you thinking of mixing/ matching for the best of both worlds? Or?? You'll get a lot of strong opinions on both sides of it ( and I know both ways too) all I can say is that a well executed active crossover system can be truly exceptional....there's lots to talk/ think about. Again, welcome.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=97951)
Hi, My name is Saladin. I am from Malaysia and I have a pair of very good condition marble color Apogee Duetta Signature which I got from a Doctor in Singapore. I already own a pair of later series Apogee Stage which I am using as a surround speakers for HTS. I regrettably sold my Audio Note 3.1x DAC because I needed a XLR DAC which is lacking in the Audio Note. I am now looking for another XLR tube DAC after selling another Proceed AVP2. I sold my Krell KSA 200S long ago(regretted)and bought a BAT 500(using a Fourier component tube and Cary audio monos tube amplifiers but cannot power the Apogee! I am using the BAT VK30 tube pre amplifier to a Blue ICE digital power amplifier to drive the Apogee(no problem but cannot match the sound of the Krell or the BAT). I was wondering if I should buy an used Krell later model
power like the FPB 200 or just use back the KSA 200S? My source are CEC TL-1X transport pairing with the alchemist forseti apd34a dac using audience digital and IC. XLR input not working on the DAC. Speaker cables are Nordost SPM. Thanks for your assistance.
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I cant claim to be knowledgeable of the used Apogee market....But $10g for one non functional Full Range Ribbon !!??
http://www.ebay.com/itm/APOGEE-FULL-RANGE-RIBBON-SPEAKER-RIGHT-CHANNEL-LEVINSON-CELLO-FISCHER-CONNECTOR-/221698140501?&_trksid=p2056016.m2516.l5255
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Well, that's sort of an oddball ad and I'm not sure how real it is. But the Apogee repair and replacement parts market is fairly interesting.
This is a brand that's been significantly changed through the years since the company folded. Repairs are very expensive no matter which way you approach it.
Dave.
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I owned a pair of Apogee Centaurs that I bought new in 1990. I had them for 22 years when one ribbon disintegrated. Cost of speakers new was $1800. Cost of one new (old stock) ribbon was $1800. So I bought Magepans.
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What maggies did you replace them with , Better ..?
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I cant claim to be knowledgeable of the used Apogee market....But $10g for one non functional Full Range Ribbon !!??
http://www.ebay.com/itm/APOGEE-FULL-RANGE-RIBBON-SPEAKER-RIGHT-CHANNEL-LEVINSON-CELLO-FISCHER-CONNECTOR-/221698140501?&_trksid=p2056016.m2516.l5255
listing looks like a joke .......... :roll:
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I replaced the Apogees with Magnepan MMGs. Then I upgraded to 1.7s. I like them even better than the Apogees. They sound fuller and more open.
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Face it, BobM, you're doomed.
At least mine only wants a remodeled kitchen.
Nope, he will get a bigger house sooner than later. What state is the question.
charles