What's so bad about digital?

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Phil

What's so bad about digital?
« on: 7 Jul 2010, 03:34 am »
Dave,

Thought other might be curious about this too.  Perhaps you can elaborate. 

What is the digital noise you are trying to cancel/eliminate with the Buss line?  Is it noise picked up by digital audio devices and amplified, noise generated by the digital device or noise carried by the electrical connection or all three?  Do digital audio devices really pollute the line and, if so, is it carried back to the central circuit breakers?

ultrafi

Re: What's so bad about digital?
« Reply #1 on: 7 Jul 2010, 03:15 pm »
Phil, et al;

The thing about digital that makes is so bad is that, somewhat like analog, it is a piece-wise/step modulation of the power supply voltage/currents.  That said, or understood, what you can think of is a FFT or mixing of frequencies that make up this intermingled with the analog signal.  The result can be broadband noise; but, often includes predominate frequencies, as a characteristic of the system.

A method of addressing these is to provide a frequency dependent path to ground.  However, this often traverses some impedance, and is thereby limited in it's effectiveness.  Another method is to intentionally provide some impedance that prevents mixing.  Trouble here is one need know the frequencies in question.  Another method is is to combine the forgoing two methods.

The big thing most people over look and that is part of the foregoing is the relative proximity of the digital device and said analog circuitry.  Recall I said the signal must traverse some impedance.  It's gotta come from somewhere.

Now here's where the wheel comes off for most.  Most ignore copper and core losses.

That should point you in the right direction and fuel some further discussion.

dBe

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Re: What's so bad about digital?
« Reply #2 on: 7 Jul 2010, 03:49 pm »
Dave,

Thought other might be curious about this too.  Perhaps you can elaborate. 

What is the digital noise you are trying to cancel/eliminate with the Buss line?  Is it noise picked up by digital audio devices and amplified, noise generated by the digital device or noise carried by the electrical connection or all three?  Do digital audio devices really pollute the line and, if so, is it carried back to the central circuit breakers?
Phil, pretty much the answer is yes.  I find the home computer to be the biggest offender.  That is another topic for sure.

Anything with a digital clock is a potential RF noise generator unless there are steps taken to keep that noise out of the hot/neutral, ground connections and to limit the propensity for these units to turn into little radio stations.

Ultrafi hit the big one squarely on the nose.  Power supplies are often very expensive to manufacture (even switchers which are another PITA - great topic there, too - see above) and the bottom line in retail is the bottom line.  Any time a manufacturerr can save a few pennies, yen or shekels they will only add to that bottom line.  It is the attention to detail that differentiates the high-end from mid-fi.  This also gives niche market companies like mine and others an opportunity to address the crap floating around in the A/C and air and eke out a living.

One place that a DIY guy can really work a bit of wonder is to take screwdriver in hand and pop the top off a piece of digital gear, identify the digital and analog circuits and do everything possible to do some internal shielding between the two.  I had a Rotel 990 CD player that responded pretty well to lining the top (the internal surface, of course) with conductive foam to absorb and dissipate the RFI from the clock and digital circuitry.  RF propogation is a major source of jitter in one way or another.  ERS cloth is somewhat effective in these applications, although I've heard it suck the life out of music if it is over used.

My .02

Dave

SlushPuppy

Re: What's so bad about digital?
« Reply #3 on: 7 Jul 2010, 05:38 pm »
Phil, pretty much the answer is yes.  I find the home computer to be the biggest offender.  That is another topic for sure.

Anything with a digital clock is a potential RF noise generator unless there are steps taken to keep that noise out of the hot/neutral, ground connections and to limit the propensity for these units to turn into little radio stations.

Ultrafi hit the big one squarely on the nose.  Power supplies are often very expensive to manufacture (even switchers which are another PITA - great topic there, too - see above) and the bottom line in retail is the bottom line.  Any time a manufacturerr can save a few pennies, yen or shekels they will only add to that bottom line.  It is the attention to detail that differentiates the high-end from mid-fi.  This also gives niche market companies like mine and others an opportunity to address the crap floating around in the A/C and air and eke out a living.

One place that a DIY guy can really work a bit of wonder is to take screwdriver in hand and pop the top off a piece of digital gear, identify the digital and analog circuits and do everything possible to do some internal shielding between the two.  I had a Rotel 990 CD player that responded pretty well to lining the top (the internal surface, of course) with conductive foam to absorb and dissipate the RFI from the clock and digital circuitry.  RF propogation is a major source of jitter in one way or another.  ERS cloth is somewhat effective in these applications, although I've heard it suck the life out of music if it is over used.

My .02

Dave

Hi Dave,

I'm always looking for ways to tweak my system. Is there a particular brand/type of conductive foam you recommend?


Thanks!

Slush

dBe

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Re: What's so bad about digital?
« Reply #4 on: 7 Jul 2010, 06:06 pm »
Hi Dave,

I'm always looking for ways to tweak my system. Is there a particular brand/type of conductive foam you recommend?


Thanks!

Slush
Slush, here is what I used:

http://timemotion.com/Products/3M-Conductive-Packaging-Foam__TMT-13-47105.aspx

Dave

SlushPuppy


dBe

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Re: What's so bad about digital?
« Reply #6 on: 8 Jul 2010, 06:27 pm »