AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Bryston Limited => Topic started by: zoom25 on 17 Jan 2016, 08:28 am
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Just wanted to post few impressions of some testing that I've been doing. I am using Bryston BDP-1 to feed my DAC (Dangerous Source w/ Teradak 12V13A Linear Power Supply), which is also currently powering my headphones, Sennheiser HD 800. (Bryston BHA-1 is on the way). I figured I would order some interconnect cables for the BHA-1. Then I thought of ordering some AES cables as well to save money on shipping.
Currently I've been using a 75 ohm coaxial to AES cable between the BDP-1 and Dangerous Source. The cable is Mogami 2964 with Neutrik gold connectors. I have the same cable with same connectors in 3 different lengths: 2 feet, 6 feet, and 10 feet.
Until now, I have been stacking the components and using the 2 feet cable. Although now I came across articles talking about reflections and minimum 1.5 meters for digital cables. So before ordering an AES cable, I decided to experiment with the cables I already had and see if anything would even remotely translate in my system by changing the cable length. Volume was kept constant and the equipment was kept stacked in the exact same manner regardless of the length of the cable used as a control for possible sound degradation due to close proximity.
Results:
- I went back and forth between the 2 feet and 10 feet for 2 hours at varying temporal intervals. Sometimes comparing the same part of the track (20 seconds) a few dozen times. There's definitely a learning curve and time needed to put my finger on exactly describing the differences in sound I was hearing.
- I actually preferred the sound of the 2 feet during the first 20 minutes or so. Although after I decided to leave the 10 feet on for some time and then come back to the 2 feet. Take a break. Then repeat back and forth testing.
- The 10 feet sounds more relaxing and there is no ghosting. At first I thought the 2 feet was being strident and somewhat sibilant. Although after getting used to the 10 feet, the 2 feet had this weird blurring of sound
- The 10 feet is definitely the more pleasing one to listen to. Soundstage is also more fuller, while retaining the same size. Its hard to explain it fully.
- Also, the 2 feet was putting extra impact on vocals and air, which I initially liked (Perhaps because I was used to it for months). However, over the next few hours I got used to the 10 feet cable and it was very clear and less fatiguing. No ghosting whatsoever.
- Finally, I got around to trying the 6 feet cable which is 2.0 metres, and longer than the 1.5 metres minimum recommendation. Surprisingly, I did not like it. It sounded a bit different than the 2 feet cable, but it was still not close to what I was/am hearing with the 10 feet cable. Really confused with where the cutoff minimum length is. Just genuine observations. Also, I was worried about jitter with the longer cable but there is absolutely nothing to worry about. Nothing is sloppy.
I think I'm going to order a 20 feet 3173 Mogami AES cable and try to move the BDP-1 on a separate desk without any electronic components nearby. Hopefully, the 20 feet should not be a problem. This cable is designed to do 1000 feet.
Also, upon further reading, it seems the BNC connector is actually the best option. Unfortunately, my Dangerous Source cannot accept a BNC connector. If I consider a BDA-2/3 later on to finish my Bryston stack, I will definitely try RCA coaxial vs. AES vs. BNC head to head.
Anyways, would love to hear others experience. Definitely try this out if you have cables lying around.
For analog interconnects between DAC and BHA-1, I take it everyone prefers to keep it as short as possible?
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I believe the purpose of shorter cables is to make them less susceptible to interference. In my experience (just my home and system), cable quality is more important than 1m vs 2m. And as with most things, there's diminishing returns as costs go up. I suspect your results will be dependent on how much interference is in your environment.
I've read before what you've posted about digital cables. It had something to do with multiples of 1.5m. So 1.5m, 3m, 4.5m, etc were the sweet spots. However, the benefit of that might also be accomplished through the components and/or better quality cables with proper connectors. I have no idea myself, just theorizing.
The BNC connection is easier to explain. That connector is designed for 75 ohm connections where the RCA connector was not.
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I think I'm going to order a 20 feet 3173 Mogami AES cable and try to move the BDP-1 on a separate desk without any electronic components nearby. Hopefully, the 20 feet should not be a problem. This cable is designed to do 1000 feet.
There was a small boutique manufacturer of DACs that performed signal reflection analysis with an oscilloscope/digital analyzer, and although given the proper test equipment and testing methodology one could arrive at a perfect length of digital interconnect for each particular component combo, the average was found to be in the 16 - 17 foot range, so you're probably right on track.
Steve
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I believe the purpose of shorter cables is to make them less susceptible to interference. In my experience (just my home and system), cable quality is more important than 1m vs 2m. And as with most things, there's diminishing returns as costs go up. I suspect your results will be dependent on how much interference is in your environment.
I've read before what you've posted about digital cables. It had something to do with multiples of 1.5m. So 1.5m, 3m, 4.5m, etc were the sweet spots. However, the benefit of that might also be accomplished through the components and/or better quality cables with proper connectors. I have no idea myself, just theorizing.
The BNC connection is easier to explain. That connector is designed for 75 ohm connections where the RCA connector was not.
Yeah that used to be my exact thinking. Although, I haven't run into any interference problems. I use the top tier Mogami cable for each respective application. 2549 for analog and 3173 for digital. They are well shielded and sound great. I'm thinking of trying out the AES 3173 for analog runs as well. I've heard some say they might work better than even the top analog 2549.
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There was a small boutique manufacturer of DACs that performed signal reflection analysis with an oscilloscope/digital analyzer, and although given the proper test equipment and testing methodology one could arrive at a perfect length of digital interconnect for each particular component combo, the average was found to be in the 16 - 17 foot range, so you're probably right on track.
Steve
Yeah I came across those studies as well. Until now I never really payed attention to it. Just tried to keep it as short as possible. After listening throughout the last day, I am very confident in what I am hearing and the differences. Really liking the longer cable. The BDP-1 is definitely beating my Mac setup (Audirvana and Amarra). I think maybe one of those articles said to even treat analog interconnects as similar to the digital stuff with reflections...I must admit I did get a bit lost how that held up with analog signals (i.e. keep it as short as possible vs. give it some breathing room)
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Don't forget the BDA 2 and 3, the xlr and rca inputs are transformer coupled too.
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Don't forget the BDA 2 and 3, the xlr and rca inputs are transformer coupled too.
Sorry, I'm not understanding the implication of this (brain dead atm). Care to elaborate? Thanks.
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Sorry, I'm not understanding the implication of this (brain dead atm). Care to elaborate? Thanks.
The transformer gives you a 75/110 ohm input. It will see what ever the output is of the BDP and mirror it. Its rated with a transformer coupled input maybe James can clarify what it does. Any length of cable will show 75 ohms and length no longer becomes an issue i am assuming.
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The optimum cable length will depend on the risetime of the signal. The faster the risetime, the shorter you can make the cable. Very short cables such as 0.5m are to be avoided because the reflection from the destination makes its way back to the source just as the destination is sampling the transitioning edge. This creates jitter. Therefore, make it as short as possible, given your risetime, but long enough to avoid the first reflection (there are attenuated second and third reflections).
Here is a white-paper I wrote with some general guidelines. This has been double-blind tested by a Canadian audio magazine.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue43/jitter.htm (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue43/jitter.htm)
Steve N.
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The optimum cable length will depend on the risetime of the signal. The faster the risetime, the shorter you can make the cable. Very short cables such as 0.5m are to be avoided because the reflection from the destination makes its way back to the source just as the destination is sampling the transitioning edge. This creates jitter. Therefore, make it as short as possible, given your risetime, but long enough to avoid the first reflection (there are attenuated second and third reflections).
Here is a white-paper I wrote with some general guidelines. This has been double-blind tested by a Canadian audio magazine.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue43/jitter.htm (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue43/jitter.htm)
Steve N.
Yeah I came across this article as well. Helps to explain the things I was noticing.
I have no equipment to test this and make the optimum cable length. I'm just going by ear here. The current 10 feet on my specific system has been working quite nicely.
Do you have any comments on audio interconnect length (from DAC to (pre)-amplifier?
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Got the Mogami 3173 for AES (XLR to XLR). It's definitely better sounding than the other Mogami I was using above (coaxial to XLR). Not sure if its better because I am using AES output on the BDP-1, or if its the cable. Maybe both. I also started using 3173 for analog applications and it beats my Mogami 2549 which is considered their best analog mic line cable. The 3173 is definitely top stuff for both analog and digital. The top end of the music and vocals just opens up. Its genuinely worth an audition. It improved both of my systems.
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There was a small boutique manufacturer of DACs that performed signal reflection analysis with an oscilloscope/digital analyzer, and although given the proper test equipment and testing methodology one could arrive at a perfect length of digital interconnect for each particular component combo, the average was found to be in the 16 - 17 foot range, so you're probably right on track.
Steve
I would appreciate it greatly if you could find the website Link for the tests.
Thanks in advance,
Jim
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Just wanted to post few impressions of some testing that I've been doing. I am using Bryston BDP-1 to feed my DAC (Dangerous Source w/ Teradak 12V13A Linear Power Supply), which is also currently powering my headphones, Sennheiser HD 800. (Bryston BHA-1 is on the way). I figured I would order some interconnect cables for the BHA-1. Then I thought of ordering some AES cables as well to save money on shipping.
Currently I've been using a 75 ohm coaxial to AES cable between the BDP-1 and Dangerous Source. The cable is Mogami 2964 with Neutrik gold connectors. I have the same cable with same connectors in 3 different lengths: 2 feet, 6 feet, and 10 feet.
Until now, I have been stacking the components and using the 2 feet cable. Although now I came across articles talking about reflections and minimum 1.5 meters for digital cables. So before ordering an AES cable, I decided to experiment with the cables I already had and see if anything would even remotely translate in my system by changing the cable length. Volume was kept constant and the equipment was kept stacked in the exact same manner regardless of the length of the cable used as a control for possible sound degradation due to close proximity.
Results:
- I went back and forth between the 2 feet and 10 feet for 2 hours at varying temporal intervals. Sometimes comparing the same part of the track (20 seconds) a few dozen times. There's definitely a learning curve and time needed to put my finger on exactly describing the differences in sound I was hearing.
- I actually preferred the sound of the 2 feet during the first 20 minutes or so. Although after I decided to leave the 10 feet on for some time and then come back to the 2 feet. Take a break. Then repeat back and forth testing.
- The 10 feet sounds more relaxing and there is no ghosting. At first I thought the 2 feet was being strident and somewhat sibilant. Although after getting used to the 10 feet, the 2 feet had this weird blurring of sound
- The 10 feet is definitely the more pleasing one to listen to. Soundstage is also more fuller, while retaining the same size. Its hard to explain it fully.
- Also, the 2 feet was putting extra impact on vocals and air, which I initially liked (Perhaps because I was used to it for months). However, over the next few hours I got used to the 10 feet cable and it was very clear and less fatiguing. No ghosting whatsoever.
- Finally, I got around to trying the 6 feet cable which is 2.0 metres, and longer than the 1.5 metres minimum recommendation. Surprisingly, I did not like it. It sounded a bit different than the 2 feet cable, but it was still not close to what I was/am hearing with the 10 feet cable. Really confused with where the cutoff minimum length is. Just genuine observations. Also, I was worried about jitter with the longer cable but there is absolutely nothing to worry about. Nothing is sloppy.
I think I'm going to order a 20 feet 3173 Mogami AES cable and try to move the BDP-1 on a separate desk without any electronic components nearby. Hopefully, the 20 feet should not be a problem. This cable is designed to do 1000 feet.
Also, upon further reading, it seems the BNC connector is actually the best option. Unfortunately, my Dangerous Source cannot accept a BNC connector. If I consider a BDA-2/3 later on to finish my Bryston stack, I will definitely try RCA coaxial vs. AES vs. BNC head to head.
Anyways, would love to hear others experience. Definitely try this out if you have cables lying around.
For analog interconnects between DAC and BHA-1, I take it everyone prefers to keep it as short as possible?
Thanks for sharing.
There is one more listening test I would like you to try if you would.
First listen to something you are really familiar with. Something with a strong female voice. Also something with a solo piano segment in a song.
The test:
Flip the 10' digital coax cable end for end, (changing the direction), and then listen to the same music again. (Even if the cable has directional arrows/markings and you have it installed that way before the test.)
Please post back your results.
Jim
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Thanks for sharing.
There is one more listening test I would like you to try if you would.
First listen to something you are really familiar with. Something with a strong female voice. Also something with a solo piano segment in a song.
The test:
Flip the 10' digital coax cable end for end, (changing the direction), and then listen to the same music again. (Even if the cable has directional arrows/markings and you have it installed that way before the test.)
Please post back your results.
Jim
Hello Jim,
Unfortunately this will not be possible as it was a coaxial cable that was terminated to XLR. So the wire was 75 ohms to support BDP-1's coaxial output via RCA plug. The termination was XLR to plug into my Dangerous Source's AES input. So I cannot reverse the direction because the terminations are different. Unless I misunderstood you...
However, I have been paying attention to female voices and the top end of piano for testing in my experiments. Probably for different reason than you had in your mind?
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Another detail to add. I have the 3173 AES cable in two lengths: 10 feet and 18 feet. Currently using the single 18 feet as digital. Took the pair of two 10 feet cables for active monitor duty.
Maybe I should grab the 10 feet AES to compare with the 10 feet of coaxial cable mentioned above? Different wire and terminations, but at least the length will be the same?
Either way, I highly recommend trying the 3173. It just gives another dimension to the music. Maybe its the AES port.
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I would appreciate it greatly if you could find the website Link for the tests.
I think it was the U-byte cable from Analog Research Technology.
http://ar-t.co/ubyte.html (http://ar-t.co/ubyte.html)
But I seem to remember more detail about the length that I'm not seeing on that page. Maybe it was edited or I am remembering a discussion from another site or forum. To make it a little more confusing the page says the length is "around 16' ", but at the end of the page under Specifications it states "approximately 8 feet" (???)
Pat, the proprietor, has not been active on AudioCircle for about a year and a half.
Here is some discussion from AudioCircle 8 years ago:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=49432.msg443440#msg443440 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=49432.msg443440#msg443440)
Steve
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Hello Jim,
Unfortunately this will not be possible as it was a coaxial cable that was terminated to XLR. So the wire was 75 ohms to support BDP-1's coaxial output via RCA plug. The termination was XLR to plug into my Dangerous Source's AES input. So I cannot reverse the direction because the terminations are different. Unless I misunderstood you...
However, I have been paying attention to female voices and the top end of piano for testing in my experiments. Probably for different reason than you had in your mind?
zoom25 said:
Currently I've been using a 75 ohm coaxial to AES cable between the BDP-1 and Dangerous Source. The cable is Mogami 2964 with Neutrik gold connectors. I have the same cable with same connectors in 3 different lengths: 2 feet, 6 feet, and 10 feet.
LOL, and I read what you had posted too. Brain fart on my part I guess. In my head all I seen was RCA ends.
zoom25 Said:
However, I have been paying attention to female voices and the top end of piano for testing in my experiments. Probably for different reason than you had in your mind?
zoom25 Said:
Probably for different reason than you had in your mind?
Nope same reasons.
I didn't want to plant any impressions in your ears/mind the differences you might hear when flipping the direction of the cable. From my personal experience Digital coax cables with RCA ends are directional regardless what the manufacture of the cable might say.
I have found when listening for differences in, cables be it digital or analog, power cords, CD transports, DACs, what ever, music with female vocals and solo piano bring out the differences the most.
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I think it was the U-byte cable from Analog Research Technology.
http://ar-t.co/ubyte.html (http://ar-t.co/ubyte.html)
But I seem to remember more detail about the length that I'm not seeing on that page. Maybe it was edited or I am remembering a discussion from another site or forum. To make it a little more confusing the page says the length is "around 16' ", but at the end of the page under Specifications it states "approximately 8 feet" (???)
Pat, the proprietor, has not been active on AudioCircle for about a year and a half.
Here is some discussion from AudioCircle 8 years ago:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=49432.msg443440#msg443440 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=49432.msg443440#msg443440)
Steve
Steve,
Thanks for the response
http://ar-t.co/ubyte.html (http://ar-t.co/ubyte.html)
Most competitors probably realise that there is more to it than "bits is just bits". One would hope so. However, they most likely view the solution as they would any other audio solution. But when it comes to RF interfaces, and ones as poorly conceived as SPDIF, it is essential that cable (and equipment ) designers have a thorough knowledge of the subject. Alas, few do. Members of our design team have been working with these matters since the 60s. Let us say that we have more than enough knowledge and experience to design a cable that will perform as well as any cable can in any given situation.
OK, now the bad news:
The cable is around 16' long, and is only available with BNC connectors.
Why so long, you ask.
The old version cable is 16 feet long.
Further update: February, 2013. They are making a comeback! Found a different type of BNC. No, we did not listen to it. No, we have no intention of listening to it. And it is a moot point, since it took all this time to find it. We are using it.
(It can't sound that awful, since we are already using a different style, for the cheap "freebie" cable we included, with all of our other fine/crappy/whatever products. And no one has sent any of them back. So, there!)
"Maybe because they are free. And you still go out of your way to annoy us, don't you? And include all of your inside, private jokes, as part of the sales pitch."
Si.
Hey, look at the bright side: it is free entertainment. Besides, what do you expect, for this money, Cousin Brucie?
Specifications:
Impedance: 75 ohms, +/- 1.5 ohms.
Length: Approximately 8 feet.
The new version is 8 feet long.
srb Said:
Pat, the proprietor, has not been active on AudioCircle for about a year and a half.
I wonder if his email address is still good for his company? I'll check it out.
I have a few questions for him regarding spdif coax cable lengths.
Jim
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My Dangerous Source has AES and USB input. However, my Emotiva Stealth DC-1 in addition also has BNC input. Maybe I should try to compare AES and BNC in DC-1 through BDP-1?
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Nope same reasons.
I didn't want to plant any impressions in your ears/mind the differences you might hear when flipping the direction of the cable. From my personal experience Digital coax cables with RCA ends are directional regardless what the manufacture of the cable might say.
Yeah I was recently checking out Vovox's page and they acknowledge the topics covered in this thread, while fully admitting they are not sure of the WHY, but acknowledging the differences in sound. I have been recommended Vovox a few times by different studio manufacturers. One of the guys at Focal also recommended Vovox for power and IC. Both are unshielded, but supposedly sound the best. Would love to compare to my 3173 and 2549.
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The Emotiva DC-1 also has a coaxial input. Then can try the directionality stuff in the future. Although, I don't know if its worth it as I typically find manufacturers recommending BNC or AES over SPDIF.
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I have an update after a year. During the year, in addition to having the HD 800, I also added an Amphion monitoring system (Amphion One15 + Amphion Amp100 + Amphion cables) which provides as much insight as the HD 800, if not more! Certain things are far more easier to hear and feel on the Amphions. If something is wrong, it's very quickly made obvious.
So to recap: these are the cables that were tested, all with Neutrik Gold connectors on XLRs and Amphenol on RCA (SPDIF). Still connecting to my DAC (Dangerous Source w/ Teradak LPS).
AES:
- Grimm TPR: 2 feet
- Mogami 3173: 10 feet
- Mogami 3173: 18 feet
SPDIF:
- Mogami 2964: 2 feet
- Mogami 2964: 6 feet
- Mogami 2964: 10 feet
AES vs. SPDIF: In general I preferred the AES connection over SPDIF.
Short lengths: SPDIF Mogami 2964 (2 feet) and AES Grimm TPR (2 feet) both sounded bad at short lengths. The sound is very harsh with treble bursts on both headphones and monitors. The background is also quite noisy. On the monitors especially, it becomes hard to pinpoint where the sound is exactly coming from. You know the speakers are in front of you and the sound is coming from front, yet it is really unnatural.
The 6 feet 2964 does improve over both 2 feet of SPDIF and AES. Yet the sound is still fatiguing.
Medium length: The 10 feet of SPDIF 2964 and 3173 AES are both improvements over all the shorter cables. Between the two, I prefer the AES as the background is darker. Although, I think the SPDIF might come off as slightly warmer. The image on both versions feels much more natural in comparison to the 6 feet and especially the 2 feet! The fatigue goes down easily over the shorter versions.
Long length: The 18 footer 3173 AES in comparison to the rest sounds the most relaxed. The music sounds so analog and cohesive that it actually feels as if the music has slowed down and you can see and enjoy each second. This does not happen on other lengths or even using USB on Macbook Pro via Audirvana and Amarra. This has the darkest background and makes the other connections and length sound disjointed. There is zero fatigue in both FR, soundstage reproduction, or any sizzle. The BDP-1 with this cable really DEFINITIVELY beats any other transport that I've tried so far.
Initially when I got the 3173, I thought it lacked details in comparison to the shorter cables, but overtime it became quite clear that the shorter ones were adding unwanted crap to the sound and coming off as bright. I can say without hesitation that on my system the 18 footer is the best way to listen.
For the past two months, I was using the 10 footer 3173 on the BDP-1 and using that to evaluate HD 800 with Sonarworks. Sonarworks really helped take off the edge that the both BDP-1 and Audirvana Plus without Sonarworks were producing. Although, I knew that Sonarworks was coming at a price. It didn't feel natural regardless of the filter and dry/wet settings.
4 days ago, I went back to the 18 footer version of 3173 and it felt more relaxed immediately on the Amphions. The more surprising part was that I could actually listen to the HD 800 without Sonarworks and come away fine. There were absolutely no nasty peaks with BDP-1 now. I could tell that the HD 800 had a bit of excess energy in the treble region, but it was done so well that it never felt fatiguing. This is the stock HD 800 I'm talking about! This is coming off of Sonarworks. It made that much of a difference that I would prefer the 18 footer BDP-1 over the Sonarworks on Mac.
Caveat: This might just be an issue on my particular system. I doubt there are other users using both the BDP-1 and Dangerous Source, so its hard to verify.
I know most BDP-1/2 owners here have Bryston DACs to go with them, so perhaps in that stack it might not be as apparent as they were designed with each other in mind.
HOWEVER, there are 2 things that I've noticed and learned about in the past year about whether you will have issues with digital cables or not.
1) With both SPDIF and AES, there will always be reflections to due impedance mismatch because of connectors, regardless of the components used (all Bryston or not). To what extent, depends on the design. I read up quite a bit on DIY Audio website from engineers about this very issue. Surprisingly, it's far less discussed on other forums.
2) Most people have rarely used digital cables anywhere close to 18 feet. This is partly because of the fact that 18 feet of a fancy cable would be in the several thousand dollars considering a meter can go for a few hundred dollars. I think most people use around 1 meter to 2 meter. A lot of manufacturers suggest using 1.5 meters to overcome this reflection issue as the best compromise.
However, there is very little discussion on cable length of something like 16-20 feet, which makes sense when people are stacking components on top of each other. Although, I did manage to find a few people that tested the same thing and they also found the sweet range at around 17 feet.
Why this matters!: Now I know most people are probably very happy with their current BDP setups. In my first few months with the BDP-1 I was using short cables like most people and everything sounded really good. However, it was not until I started getting longer cables that I noticed what a havoc the shorter cables were making. I needed the reference to make sense of the shorter cables.
Perhaps, this isn't a concern genuinely for some setups, HOWEVER, it is impossible to tell/predict if you have been suffering from this problem until you have tried something longer to make a reference. Remember, I thought my system had no defect at the very start as well. It was only when I tried something else could I truly make that assessment.
Suggestion to those interested: I know most Bryston owners spend several hundred to thousands on tweaking their system. If you wanted, you could get something like the 18 footer 3173 AES for around $70. I got mine custom made from Pro Audio LA. It's not expensive at all in the grand scheme of things and could be the thing holding your system back all this time. Plus, you could use this cable for both analog and digital applications in the future. It's a safe investment at a very decent price, especially in comparison to boutique products.
Literature: I haven't posted articles and studies that I've read along the way, however, if you know how to work google you can find it. Some key terms include: jitter, reflection, signal integrity, transmission line, risetime, 1.5 meters, AES, SPDIF. Lots of stuff from the past decade on DIY Audio's website.
TESING YOUR CURRENT SYSTEM: If you want to know whether you can hear the difference between various jitter or not, try this test. It takes 5 minutes and can be very useful: http://www.cranesong.com/jitter_1.html
EDIT: Just wanted to add that some might be wondering (as I did) if there are any negatives to using longer digital cables and causing more jitter due to the longer length. In my testing, I think at 18 feet, it is still short enough to not have any loss of information or add jitter, yet it is long enough to overcome reflections. SO ONLY POSITIVES AND NO NEGATIVES on my end. Even if there is added jitter due to the slightly longer run, I can assure you that it is some of the best sounding jitter I've heard.
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Thanks for the well written study. I've been using a long (~14') digital cable for years. I've also wondered that if it was too long the reflections would reform and the SQ would deteriorate. AES connectors will be my next upgrade.
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Thanks for the well written study. I've been using a long (~14') digital cable for years. I've also wondered that if it was too long the reflections would reform and the SQ would deteriorate. AES connectors will be my next upgrade.
Yeah, this has come to my mind as well. If I were to take this to the next level, I'd have several cables with the same connectors and wires and ranging in length by a feet or half a feet increment, all the way up to say 20 feet. Unfortunately, unless I'm making them myself, it'd cost too much.
I don't know what to expect if I change my 18 feet within a +/- 2 feet range. However, I'm absolutely certain that even at particular non-ideal lengths between say (15-20 feet), the result will still be better than an ideal length at a short range (0-2 m).
Yes, definitely give AES a shot if you are using a Bryston BDP player, or something similar. The 18 feet range is still safe.
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Makes you wonder if the often surprisingly good sound available from some of the integrated digital players with internal DAC connected internally via I2S has a lot to do with circumventing the whole S/PDIF or AES transmission line thing, much like a CD player versus a separate transport and a separate S/PDIF or AES connected DAC.
Steve
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^ Yes, I prefer CDP --> preamp, direct, rather than thru a DAC with AES/BNC cables. Shorter signal path rule #1 in all of this.
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Hi Folks,
All our DAC's have isolation transformers at their inputs to optimize the impedance and signal transfer so reflection issues are eliminated.
james
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All our DAC's have isolation transformers at their inputs to optimize the impedance and signal transfer so reflection issues are eliminated.
Yet after a substantial years worth of testing, zoom25 reported definite (to his ears) differences in sound among the various cable lengths.
Steve
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Yet after a substantial years worth of testing, zoom25 reported definite (to his ears) differences in sound among the various cable lengths.
Steve
The difference between science and art I guess.
james
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The difference between science and art I guess.
james
Artfully put.
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Ok, just to clear up some things. I don't know if people took the time to read what I had written.
1) I only have Bryston's BDP-1 player. I DO NOT HAVE BRYSTON'S CONVERTERS. I have listened to the BDA-2 numerous times, however, I have never used it for testing digital cable lengths. This was only through my current converter Dangerous Music Source that is powered by an external Teradak linear power supply. As previously stated in the caveat section, my results apply to my particular combo of BDP-1 and Dangerous Source. If I had a Bryston converter at my disposal, I'd be more than happy to conduct this test. Thus for the time being, I cannot and have not commented on Bryston converters.
2) The actual testing that I DID do with my Dangerous Source was meticulous in the controls put in place and hope that people do not dismiss it outright as ART. I didn't come here to sell products, but merely my experience of honest and controlled testing that went on for over a year. I didn't simply have a honeymoon period. This is why I didn't make a post for over a year as I wanted to be absolutely sure.
3) I will be bringing my Emotiva DC-1 DAC from another rig and will swap it out with the Dangerous Source, and try the same thing with the BDP-1 and different cables. The reason I haven't done this testing with the DC-1 in the past is because it's clearly a step below the Dangerous Source in sound when connected to the Amphion rig. I have my doubts in its resolving abilities, but we'll see.
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I found some info here about the whole "coupling" thing about the Dangerous Source: http://dangerousmusic.com/wp-content/uploads/downloads/source-chop-shop.pdf
"DC COUPLED
No transformers that color your sound or filter caps that
smear stereo. Instead, DC coupling with massive voltage
rails and Mogami point to point wiring for simple, electronic
elegance. Bandwidth from DC to light."
Similarly, for their new reference converter, the Dangerous Convert-2: http://dangerousmusic.com/wp-content/uploads/downloads/convert-2-chop-shop.pdf
"DC COUPLED
No transformers that color your sound or filter caps
that smear stereo. Instead, DC coupling with a custom
instrumentation grade power supply for simple, electronic
elegance. Bandwidth from DC to light."
There is some difference in text between the two products, so I hope you read closely. However, both are DC coupled. All their gear is designed by Chris Muth, who might know a thing or two.
I don't know if this info provides insight as to why my converter is responding differently to different lengths in cable. If Mr. Tanner or another Bryston engineer can help make sense of the info I provided and contrast it to Bryston's transformer coupling, that'd be much appreciated.
Patiently waiting to learn.
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I find that it's very difficult to make any firm conclusion that can be generalized to a large population of users. This is true of something as rigorous as scientific research, which undergoes peer review before publication of data (as an example). And even then, the publications will be scrutinized in most cases -- some stand the test of time (by careful replication of experiments by other scientists) whereas others do not.
With audio, it's an even tougher task, to obtain credible data that are rooted in at least a rational premise, hopefully physics-based and not heavily reliant on subjective "listening impressions". It's one thing to express a like/dislke of certain types of music -- that's art and personal tastes. I have no problem with that at all. One man's Leonardo is another's Picasso. However, I think it's disingenuous to make certain claims like the ones that have been recently expressed, and to phrase them (at least in the orig posts) as if they were universal truths.
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I don't know if this info provides insight as to why my converter is responding differently to different lengths in cable. If Mr. Tanner or another Bryston engineer can help make sense of the info I provided and contrast it to Bryston's transformer coupling, that'd be much appreciated.
Patiently waiting to learn.
Honestly, learning what??
I trust in the mfrs of gear to get things right, based on sound engineering and rational design principles. I don't use "tweaking" to second guess their expertise in building my gear that are neutral, transparent, and truthful to the sources. My satisfaction level is different from others, and I'm fine with that. But I hate it when others claim they are trying to "learn" new things by stirring up the schiit-storm regarding cable lengths and sound quality of what are essentially jitter-free, reflection-free pieces of gear.
I'm not the least bit interested in reinventing the wheel here. That's not why I got into this hobby.
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I find that it's very difficult to make any firm conclusion that can be generalized to a large population of users. This is true of something as rigorous as scientific research, which undergoes peer review before publication of data (as an example). And even then, the publications will be scrutinized in most cases -- some stand the test of time (by careful replication of experiments by other scientists) whereas others do not.
I wholeheartedly agree, and will make it clear again that I'm not framing my tests and result as an absolute in science. This is a one man show that is being conducted in spare time. However, I still paid attention in making sure things were level matched and at times had people come out and swap cables for me. Was it done to the level of top science journal publication? No. And I never implied it to be. However, within what I could have done, I still maintain that it was well handled.
With audio, it's an even tougher task, to obtain credible data that are rooted in at least a rational premise, hopefully physics-based and not heavily reliant on subjective "listening impressions".
Signal reflection is a real thing! It very well may not be a concern in the implementation Bryston converters. However, there is indeed a rational premise, that is physics based. Steve Nugent has an article on this: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm
Hell, I've seen you mention using Audio Sensibility cables. He also remarks the use of at least 1.5m long cable. If he also doesn't know crap about these things, then I wonder what that makes you for buying his cables: http://audiosensibility.com/blog/information/frequently-asked-questions/
It's one thing to express a like/dislke of certain types of music -- that's art and personal tastes. I have no problem with that at all. One man's Leonardo is another's Picasso. However, I think it's disingenuous to make certain claims like the ones that have been recently expressed, and to phrase them (at least in the orig posts) as if they were universal truths.
Despite me REPEATEDLY stating that this is limited to my specific chain only, I have no idea where you think I'm being disingenuous. Also, to be blunt, my experience with the 2 footer AES vs. the 18 footer AES is vastly different. There is nothing subtle about it! With the stock HD 800, I perhaps might get a bit tired after a few hours of the 18 footer. With the 2 footer, my ears are practically bleeding. Forget taste, physical tinnitus is the best evidence I can produce!
Honestly, learning what??
I trust in the mfrs of gear to get things right, based on sound engineering and rational design principles. I don't use "tweaking" to second guess their expertise in building my gear that are neutral, transparent, and truthful to the sources. My satisfaction level is different from others, and I'm fine with that. But I hate it when others claim they are trying to "learn" new things by stirring up the schiit-storm regarding cable lengths and sound quality of what are essentially jitter-free, reflection-free pieces of gear.
Are you serious??? I just provided links on how Bryston and Dangerous converters might differ and without arrogance am trying to learn and understand how that could be playing a part. Good on you for trusting manufacturers outright. Forgive me for trying to learn something and get clarification once in a while. Also, there is plenty of discussion from other engineers about jitter due to signal reflection. This isn't out of the blue. There is scientific basis behind my discussion. Not to mention, there are many people who have experienced this as well.
I could care less about your satisfaction level. Not once have I been hostile towards Bryston's gear or trying to stir up a schiit-storm.
I'm not the least bit interested in reinventing the wheel here. That's not why I got into this hobby.
I've seen you mention this countless times and I have never commented on this until now. I've seen you mention that you are done upgrading and you enjoy your gear as it as. Well, then how about you get off this forum and go enjoy your music and gear. I don't care why you got into this hobby for. Stop being so self-centered. For a person who has reached audio nirvana, it's damn funny to see him come and tell people on several occasions about how they should approach this hobby and experience their gear and music. For me and others, it's possible to simultaneously BOTH ENJOY AND BE CURIOUS.
I hope you re-read what I've written and examine my intent. I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel here. Perhaps, just smoothen out the bumps on the road here and there.
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Based on how things are progressing, before someone starts questioning whether I even did the test or not: http://imgur.com/a/iTPqM
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Based on how things are progressing, before someone starts questioning whether I even did the test or not: http://imgur.com/a/iTPqM
Hi Zoom
Just to be clear I am not questioning the fact that you hear what you hear. That's why I used the word 'art'. In this context I meant that some things are not always explained by the science.
When someone calls and says they hear 'such and such' I do not dismiss it but I try to understand what could be going on that would result in the conclusions the person feels he or she is hearing.
james
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@zoom:
What measurements have you actually done to back up your claim that 18-feet of cable (in ANY system) "sounds" better than other lengths? There are others in the past (e.g. DarqueKnight, whom I respect) who have done measurements to backup their claims of change/no change in cable comparisons. Oscilloscope and spectra measurements.
Until you do so, don't frame your claims as sweeping truths. The qualifiers, "imo", and "in my system only" make a huge difference to readers of this forum who are new to this and may be misled by some assertions.
What you "hear" (outside of musical tastes) is irrelevant to me without measurements. And personally, I could care less that you spent a year or three doing these comparisons. It's audiophiles like you who give 'philes a bad rep because of nonsensical claims like yours, not backed by any established scientific principles.
I'm off this thread. But not the Bryston forum.
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What you "hear" (outside of musical tastes) is irrelevant to me without measurements.
Most "audiophiles" don't have the test equipment or knowledge to make measurements to support their subjective sound analysis.
I've had 4 different digital front ends, all having both optical and coaxial S/PDIF outputs. In all 4 cases I made the subjective analysis that the coaxial connection sounded "tighter and more focused" than the optical connection. It was purely subjective without measurements, yet I have confidence in my subjective analysis.
I think the majority of us are guilty of this to some degree, whether making judgements about audio, automobiles or food. I like the way automobile A handles and "feels" around corners more than automobile B, yet I have no instrumentation for measuring g-force, body sway or traction.
What measurements did you make to arrive at this conclusion (yet I'm not doubting you)? :
Yes, I prefer CDP --> preamp, direct, rather than thru a DAC with AES/BNC cables. Shorter signal path rule #1 in all of this.
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Well now that CanadianMaestro is off the thread we don't have to bother with any of that stuff. I don't mind opposing viewpoints, but one should strive to bring something positive to the thread regardless.
Didn't they also use attenuators in place of extra length? I can't remember the values, maybe someone can help?
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Didn't they also use attenuators in place of extra length? I can't remember the values, maybe someone can help?
John Kenny (boutique DAC builder) wrote a very short article on attenuators and hinted that 6dB, 10dB or 15dB would probably be most applicable. How to know which one? I suppose using an oscilloscope to examine the waveform is one way.
http://www.johnkenny.biz/home-1/announcements/spdifattenuators
Steve
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@zoom:
I'm off this thread.
[/quote
:thumb:
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What measurements have you actually done to back up your claim that 18-feet of cable (in ANY system) "sounds" better than other lengths? There are others in the past (e.g. DarqueKnight, whom I respect) who have done measurements to backup their claims of change/no change in cable comparisons. Oscilloscope and spectra measurements.
I didn't do any measurements because I don't have the relevant tools for this. However, I did get people to hook up my system when I wasn't in the room to avoid sighted tests. Believe me, if I had those $50,000 Audio Precision machines, expertise, and knowledge on how to go about showing my results, I WOULD BE DOING IT! Since I cannot, on my end I try to take my time and eliminate as many biases as possible. When I'm certain about these things, then I come here and try to make sense of why something may be happening.
Until you do so, don't frame your claims as sweeping truths. The qualifiers, "imo", and "in my system only" make a huge difference to readers of this forum who are new to this and may be misled by some assertions.
Can someone beside me tell him that I've already made it explicitly clear many times that this is only relevant in my chain. I'm making no oversweeping generalization.
What you "hear" (outside of musical tastes) is irrelevant to me without measurements. And personally, I could care less that you spent a year or three doing these comparisons. It's audiophiles like you who give 'philes a bad rep because of nonsensical claims like yours, not backed by any established scientific principles.
I have no idea how blind you are or ignorant. You made no comment on the white papers I DID PROVIDE from Steve Nugent and many manufacturers that sell these digital cables and all saying the same thing about minimum cable length of 1.5 meters.
Even then I have said that is only relevant to my chain so many times. From there on, I asked about whether transformer coupling vs. DC coupling might have a difference. No attempts to answer my questions.
I'm off this thread. But not the Bryston forum.
See you around, friend.
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Hi Zoom
Just to be clear I am not questioning the fact that you hear what you hear. That's why I used the word 'art'. In this context I meant that some things are not always explained by the science.
When someone calls and says they hear 'such and such' I do not dismiss it but I try to understand what could be going on that would result in the conclusions the person feels he or she is hearing.
james
Hi James,
Just wanted to emphasize some key points from my previous posts and perhaps they may offer some insight. When the 2 footer is hooked up to the HD 800, it's not a subjective call at all. There is some textbook sibilance going on. The most unique thing was that on speakers, it becomes hard to tell where the sound is coming from. Almost as if the sound is partially 'out of phase.' It's a physical avertion kind of response. I was hoping that if it feels as if the sound is out of phase, it might help indicate what kind/pattern of jitter might be occuring?
Also, can you make sense of why my DC coupled converter might be susceptible to this?
In the meantime, I'll try to record something off my iPhone and see if it comes through.
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Hi James,
Just wanted to emphasize some key points from my previous posts and perhaps they may offer some insight. When the 2 footer is hooked up to the HD 800, it's not a subjective call at all. There is some textbook sibilance going on. The most unique thing was that on speakers, it becomes hard to tell where the sound is coming from. Almost as if the sound is partially 'out of phase.' It's a physical avertion kind of response. I was hoping that if it feels as if the sound is out of phase, it might help indicate what kind/pattern of jitter might be occuring?
Also, can you make sense of why my DC coupled converter might be susceptible to this?
In the meantime, I'll try to record something off my iPhone and see if it comes through.
Hi Zoom
Its hard for me to say without replicating your setup but as for the DC coupled question not sure I have the technical expertise to comment on that.
james
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@zoom:
I'm off this thread.
[/quote
:thumb:
I meant to congratulate CanadianMaestro for leaving the thread. :) That guy needs to chill out.
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http://www.diyhifi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1943&start=75#p43678
James or anyone, do you know the rise time and the reflection coefficient for the BDP-X and BDA-X?
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Hi James,
Just wanted to emphasize some key points from my previous posts and perhaps they may offer some insight. When the 2 footer is hooked up to the HD 800, it's not a subjective call at all. There is some textbook sibilance going on. The most unique thing was that on speakers, it becomes hard to tell where the sound is coming from. Almost as if the sound is partially 'out of phase.' It's a physical avertion kind of response. I was hoping that if it feels as if the sound is out of phase, it might help indicate what kind/pattern of jitter might be occuring?
Also, can you make sense of why my DC coupled converter might be susceptible to this?
In the meantime, I'll try to record something off my iPhone and see if it comes through.
Hi
The jitter on the BDP 2 and 3 has been measured at less than 15 picoseconds so I am not sure what would cause a cable length to affect jitter?
james
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Hi
The jitter on the BDP 2 and 3 has been measured at less than 15 picoseconds so I am not sure what would cause a cable length to affect jitter?
james
Hello James,
I'm still not sure with respect to your 15 ps comment (honestly). The last time you mentioned about the outputs being transformer coupled. I did some reading on this as well since and about AES recommendations. I tried to find about my current DAC (Dangerous Music Source) as well and it was Direct Coupled. Chris Muth was behind the design for this and the rest of the gear. He does this for all the mastering gear as well and the new Convert-2.
"No transformers that color your sound or filter caps
that smear stereo. Instead, DC coupling with a custom
instrumentation grade power supply for simple, electronic
elegance. Bandwidth from DC to light."
I tried to find out about direct coupling and if that had any impact on the digital side, and couldn't find any.
This is what Steve Nugent had written on the first page:
"The optimum cable length will depend on the risetime of the signal. The faster the risetime, the shorter you can make the cable. Very short cables such as 0.5m are to be avoided because the reflection from the destination makes its way back to the source just as the destination is sampling the transitioning edge. This creates jitter. Therefore, make it as short as possible, given your risetime, but long enough to avoid the first reflection (there are attenuated second and third reflections)."
The link to the forum I posted above talks about it in more detail and the 3 scenarios. There was also discussion on the kind of jitter in some of the previous pages.
It very well may be just my DAC, which I've accepted from the start.
I did more tests with AES (Grimm TPR 2 feet, TPR 4 feet, Mogami 3173 10 feet, 3173 18 feet). I disabled all the other digital outputs as well. Database and everything disabled. Only WAVs. To keep things as tightly controlled as possible with the lowest system activity. I used Jitterbugs and Flash drives as well.
There is a sense of ease and improvement in locating the soundstage with the longer cable. Again, I was using the 4 feet for past few months and it was livable and better than 2 feet.
If I had the BDA-2 or BDA-3, I'd be doing with that as well to confirm.
Out of curiosity James, what length of cables do you use for AES? Also, do you happen to have a long AES cable (around 15-18 feet)? I would love to get your impressions if possible with the longer cable on a day you are free. BDP-X to BDA-X.
It's not a serious issue anymore for me, with having made other improvements, but I'm still curious and puzzled about this topic. Cheers.
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Electrons move, in a 12-AWG cable, at the speed of 285,102,627 meters per second.
I doubt if even a 10-m interconnect cable would introduce enough time lag in the audio signal to be audibly detected by a human.
cheers
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If digital SPDIF or AES/EBU cables shorter than 40 feet long, there is something very wrong with the interconnect system.
That's not to say it hasn't happened in the past with some rather expensive equipment.
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If digital SPDIF or AES/EBU cables shorter than 40 feet long, there is something very wrong with the interconnect system.
That's not to say it hasn't happened in the past with some rather expensive equipment.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
best joke yet here....
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If short length, known good digital cables sounded different from one another, I would quietly sell the attached components on e-bay.
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If digital SPDIF or AES/EBU cables shorter than 40 feet long, there is something very wrong with the interconnect system.
That's not to say it hasn't happened in the past with some rather expensive equipment.
Hello Speedspkater, do you mean:
1) If 'this' is happening in a system with AES cables that are less than 40 feet, then there is something wrong with the system?
or
2) Something wrong with the cable itself (as hinted by your later post)?
BTW what AES cables do you recommend, and why the 40 feet point as a reference. I've heard multiple times about the 1.5 meter rule.
Thanks.
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I think what speedskater meant in his second post was,
if short digital cables that are well-built sound different in a system, it's because of faulty gear (not the cables) that should then be considered for sale.
Makes sense -- to me, at least. :green: Based on my own experiences with BDP + BDA, I hear no diffs in musicality or transparency whatsoever, between short vs longer BNC/AES cables, or between diff brands of cables, cheap (Canare) or expensive.
But keep on listenin'.....
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It could be the output stage, the cable or the input stage, hard to tell. But it's easy to substitute a cable, not so easy with the two components.
If more than one cable has problems, well then it's the components.
Way about 40 feet? Well SPDIF and AES/EBU are robust systems and just about any short cable should work. At about 40 feet (plus or minus) the 75 Ohm/110 Ohm Radio Frequency Characteristic Impedance comes into play as does overall cable quality.
The 1.5 meter thing is just another audiophile mis-understanding.
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I see that Canadian Maestro beat me to it.
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The 1.5 meter thing is just another audiophile mis-understanding.
more like mythology 8)
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Thanks guys.
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If one were to experiment with long digital cable, 16 -20ft, what is the proper way to layout the cable if components are close together? :scratch: I have heard that coiling speaker cable is not good for inductance reasons. Is that a problem with digital cables? It seem like the only practical way to deal with such a length.
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If one were to experiment with long digital cable, 16 -20ft, what is the proper way to layout the cable if components are close together? :scratch: I have heard that coiling speaker cable is not good for inductance reasons. Is that a problem with digital cables? It seem like the only practical way to deal with such a length.
I leave mine jumbled on top of my rack. It never touches any other component, floor, or gets anywhere close to power cables.
Instead of doing 4 feet or 10 feet, I have been going back and forth between 2 feet and 18 feet. The 18 is more 3D sounding on the Amphion and with no harshness. Yet still with precision. Since I don't have any tools, all I can do is listen critically and take notes and draw diagrams.
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A SPDIF is a shielded coax, you can place it anywhere you want. You can coil a twisted pair speaker cable no inductance problems. However with a spaced pair speaker cable, a perfect coil could have problems, but a jumble coil won't. You could tape a SPDIF cable to a power cord if you wish. In live sound pro audio, you might want too.
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I have a 16ft S/PDIF coax cable coiled and as long as you don't kink or bend it, it's fine. Manufacturers specify the minimum bend radius on their data sheets, for my Belden 89259 it's 2.5", and I have it coiled with a 3.5" radius (7" diameter coil) secured with Velcro ties.
Steve
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