[OZZIOZZI]

Ahem. no need to get so excited about exciters or lack thereof
Maybe we should put it to the panel

[Bendingwave]

Ahem. no need to get so excited about exciters or lack thereof
Maybe we should put it to the panel

I do get excited for exciters but it also seems like certain individuals are getting excited of my excitement for exciters. 

Speaking of putting them on a panel, I am currently working on another pair of panels as I fairly recently got my new box of Extra high grade EPS and also my partsexpress order of the Tectonic Elements TEAX25C10-8/SP 25mm exciter and the Dayton Audio DAEX25 Sound Exciter Pair as well as the smaller Tectonic Elements TEAX19C01-8 19mm Metal Cup Exciter....I will also be heading out to the hardware store today to buy some wood for my wood frames and spline.

[pol_bct]

Ok this will be my last post on this boring subject:
Words have a meaning and I understand perfectly that you do not have the knowledge to exploit the informations that I already gave, the phase and balance of the left and right channels never vary throughout the video, as shown by the display of the vectorscope that I posted next to the page of the video. Anyone with a bit of audio editing experience can understand what I'm talking about. And I'm still waiting for be shown a cellphone capable of making a perfectly stable stereo recording of this quality while the camera is swept from right to left, especially without capturing any echo of the room or street noise. This simply does not exist.
A transducer that is not shown in photos is a transducer that is rusted or damaged, Ebay is full of announcement of ruins on sale for staggering prices.

POL

[Bendingwave]

Ok this will be my last post on this boring subject:
Words have a meaning and I understand perfectly that you do not have the knowledge to exploit the informations that I already gave, the phase and balance of the left and right channels never vary throughout the video, as shown by the display of the vectorscope that I posted next to the page of the video. Anyone with a bit of audio editing experience can understand what I'm talking about. And I'm still waiting for be shown a cellphone capable of making a perfectly stable stereo recording of this quality while the camera is swept from right to left, especially without capturing any echo of the room or street noise. This simply does not exist.
A transducer that is not shown in photos is a transducer that is rusted or damaged, Ebay is full of announcement of ruins on sale for staggering prices.

POL

For a boring subject you seem excited to give your input.  ......so your audio editing experience disproves the sound is coming from the speakers?....I guess you have experienced every single top notch cellphone in the world?.........Are you kidding me??? Do you actually believe a transducer that is not shown is rusted or damaged???? ............If the transducers are rusted and damaged there is no way he can claim on Ebay that they are in outstanding condition because that is falsifying information........now like I said many times before if you are so SURE of your self that those arent the actual speakers playing then you should confront him about it instead of talking behind his back...You could leave a comment on his youtube video telling him that you know for a fact that those speakers are not actually playing...PLUS I just read on his EBAY listing that he says and I quote>If you want another video of the playing. Email me. I'll send it to your email....So why dont you email him and tell him how you want the speaker set up maybe further apart at least 4ft so one can actually hear the sound change when moving from one speaker to the next etc..but like I said most times people are all talk and no walk. 

[Bendingwave]

Here is another thing I wanted to touch upon with these DML panels technology working differently then conventional cone speakers......When recording sound on a conventional cone 2-4 way speakers moving the camera to the tweeter will change the sound for the mere fact that they are SEPARATE drivers....Bertagni speakers use two exciters one full range while the other is high passed at 1k.....The reason why one wont hear the change in sound when moving from the full range transducer to the high pass transducer is because they are both radiating/vibrating there combined frequencies on the SAME PLANE/PANEL....Those that do not know this do not fully understand exciter technology as this is the real nature of the beast called exciters. 

[OZZIOZZI]

Dear POL, I see and understand what you are saying about the eBay video of the Bertagni speakers and I guess Bendingwave imay also acknowledge some of your points, BUT that is not why BW and myself are upset with your post. The sale, recording with cellphone, too high quality recording without background noise etc MAY indicate that the sale is bogus. If so, why don't you confront the seller if you are morally outraged that someone may trying to cheat less informed buyers.  If this is the case, they will eventually be found out by a dissatisfied buyer or someone with the same knowledge as yourself. The other possibility is that no-one will bid on the items because it is so obviously false advertising. Problem solved!

Point 2 please do not assume that anyone who disagrees with you is ignorant of vectorscopes and other signal measuring equipment. There are many experienced and qualified people on this forum who are often modest about their academic or practical experience.

I do not want to waste more of my time discussing this eBay issue. I have enjoyed reading your posts about your exciters and panels. If you feel so upset by the eBay sale perhaps your concerns might be better aired on another circle on Audiocircle covering marketplace or for sale items. You may not be the only person who suspects a fraud is taking place.

Kind Regards
Ozziozzi

[sedge]

Here is another thing I wanted to touch upon with these DML panels technology working differently then conventional cone speakers......When recording sound on a conventional cone 2-4 way speakers moving the camera to the tweeter will change the sound for the mere fact that they are SEPARATE drivers....Bertagni speakers use two exciters one full range while the other is high passed at 1k.....The reason why one wont hear the change in sound when moving from the full range transducer to the high pass transducer is because they are both radiating/vibrating there combined frequencies on the SAME PLANE/PANEL....Those that do not know this do not fully understand exciter technology as this is the real nature of the beast called exciters. 

Bendingwave
Tectonics panels xo at about 6k or so to a single separate tweeter off the panel ,this is to minimise combing effects​ between the HF of the exciter's ,ie minimising  the cancellations of sound waves​  traveling through the panels and those traveling through  the air between the exciter's.
As for not being able to hear two exciter's (tweeters) on a single panel, it is very easy to hear the sounds from the exciter area and to measure with a test mic  the beaming from the exciter voice coil area .
Over the years I have used a few different methods to reduce  the beaming  in the HF ,blutack is the easy but not the best option.
It is always good to remember that the first pulse wave (tectonic call this the primary wave) will always come from the coil ,traveling into the centre of the voice coil area and out away from the voice coil area,what ever happens to this primary wave after this is up to you ,but it will always be there !
Steve

[Bendingwave]

Bendingwave
Tectonics panels xo at about 6k or so to a single separate tweeter off the panel ,this is to minimise combing effects​ between the HF of the exciter's ,ie minimising  the cancellations of sound waves​  traveling through the panels and those traveling through  the air between the exciter's.
As for not being able to hear two exciter's (tweeters) on a single panel, it is very easy to hear the sounds from the exciter area and to measure with a test mic  the beaming from the exciter voice coil area .
Over the years I have used a few different methods to reduce  the beaming  in the HF ,blutack is the easy but not the best option.
It is always good to remember that the first pulse wave (tectonic call this the primary wave) will always come from the coil ,traveling into the centre of the voice coil area and out away from the voice coil area,what ever happens to this primary wave after this is up to you ,but it will always be there !
Steve

To a single separate tweeter off the panel??? Have you ever heard the Tectonic panels in person?.....I am talking about 2 or more exciters on the same panel.....if you put 2 exciters on a single panel do you think the bass/mid/high waves from the full range exciter wont travel to the exciter using the high pass capacitor and vice versa?.....Even at 1 feet away its hard to pin point exactly where the sound is coming from and even harder to distinguish the high pass exciter from the full range exciter as vibrations from each exciter are all combined on one single panel...its like putting a tweeter in the middle of the midwoofer its hard to distinguish unless your ear was really close but at 1 feet away its hard to tell the separation of the tweeter and the mid range/bass...In the video he looks to be like I said before 1-2 feet away from the speakers.

Have you ever used a high pass crossover on one exciter, while the other ran at full range both on the same panel?...If I were to put 3 exciters all spaced 2 inches apart with one of them using a high pass capacitor could you tell which exciter was utilizing the high pass at 1 feet away with your ears?...Unless I put my ear really close like 1-3 inches from the exciters exact location the change in sound is very subtle....I am not saying it is impossible but its not as easily pronounced as one might actually think.....Separate drivers are easier to distinguish when one is fairly close but full range drivers or panels are not as discernible as separate drivers and or separate panels

[sedge]

Hi, Odal3....Like Ive stated above my DML Panels mimic Bertagni speakers. I am currently using a 5.1 system of ALL DML panels including the sub. A DML panel sub is just a DML panel utilizing a sub amp.

Bertagni speakers technology are basically very similar to NXT's so called BMR technology which is basically just a exciter attached to a brace/spline which in turn is attached to a frame with some sort of surround (usually foam and or rubber) material holding the panel in place on the frame....Bertagni speakers just do it on a much larger scale panel.....Another design very similar to Exciter/BMR technology are the old school Sony APM square flat speakers.

One of the most common mistakes is that most DIY DML panel designs do not use a spline/brace attached to a frame. A spline attached to a frame is very important as the back of the exciter needs something to hold it place for it to actually push/move the panel material at higher excursions...it will also increase accuracy, clarity/treble.

Most people start of utilizing Rich M's designs on parts express gallery (aka OB newbie on this site) which is just a basic start up design into DML technology....Unless a DML panel is done right one wont ever experience a DML panels TRUE POTENTIAL.

Here is a review of Bertagnis flag ship DML speakers the SM 300 just so one can get a glimpse at there potential when perfected like Bertagni designs.

http://www.hifi-classic.net/review/bes-sm300-289.html

http://www.townwire.net/bes_d120%27s.htm

http://www.audioimprov.com/AudioImprov/Speakers/Entries/2012/6/15_Bertagni_SM-275_restoration.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5eqcmHW3Vs&t=641s

On the youtube vid you can see Bertagnis design of using a frame/spline to hold the exciter in place.

You keep mentioning that YouTube video ,I have no interest in this video at all.
Why not concentrate on the bertagni speakers in this video which you posted ,where the sound changes as he moves around the room.
Is there a problem with this ?

[Bendingwave]

You keep mentioning that YouTube video ,I have no interest in this video at all.
Why not concentrate on the bertagni speakers in this video which you posted ,where the sound changes as he moves around the room.
Is there a problem with this ?

I guess you are not carefully reading my post as I told you sort of why I did not choose that video of the SM 300 flag ship speakers to compare to riches panel which was the whole point of my discussion in the first place.....The discussion only changed when questioned about the actual sound playing in the other video of the bertagni speakers similar to my SM 100

All Bertagni speakers are not the same....The Flag ship model has all the bells and whistles meaning it has a piezo electric tweeter and it also uses a SEPARATE BASS PANEL just for the BASS..If the bass panel was not separate from the mid high panel then the bass vibrations would travel to the mid/high panel making it harder to distinguish the subtle difference in sound when moving the camera...In the video the most noticable change in sound comes from moving the camera to the separate bass panel then back up to the mid/high panel and or front to back of the panel..There is a reason why Bertagni made the big bass panel separate in his flag ship model.....Also one can control and adjust the out put level of the tweeter or mid so if the tweeter and mid DB is way higher then the other it will be more pronounced then if it was set to FLAT/0 especially with a piezo tweeter as a piezo tweeter does not sound like a exciter because if it did then there would be no need for a piezo tweeter....plus the sound coming from the back of the panels sound different then the sound coming from the front, if you notice in the presumed fake sound video of the bertagni speakers you will notice at the end when he went to the back of the speakers the sound changed but pol said he probably changed the sound on purpose even admitting the sound changed when he went to the back of the speakers, its too bad the song stop playing just when he went to the back of the speakers or we could of had a better glimpse in the change of sound.......The main reason for the sound change when going to the back of the speaker is because bertagnis exciter uses VENTS in the back of there exciters the same way dayton audio uses vents in some of there exciters and there is a difference in sound from vented exciters as opposed to exciters with no vents hence why the front of the panels will sound different then the back of the panels...I own a pair of Bertagni speakers and have been studying everything I can about bertagni's design for the past 2 and half years trying to perfect my panels so I do know a little something, something about Bertagni speakers. 

[sedge]

Bendingwave
I'm sorry I cannot continue with this conversation ,I am lost for words.
It gets worse with every post.
Goodbye
Steve

[Bendingwave]

Bendingwave
I'm sorry I cannot continue with this conversation ,I am lost for words.
It gets worse with every post.
Goodbye
Steve

You said why not concentrate on the Bertagni speakers I posted in this video which is what I did as I explained the intricacies of the bertagni SM 300 speakers explaining why you can hear the sound change more so then the smaller Bertagni speakers that use 2 exciters on the same panel.

You cant continue because you dont know Bertagni speakers as it seems you are stuck in your ways of free floating panels...Ive made around 5 different free floating panels following the designs suggested on many forums before giving up that route as none of them sound as good as my Bertagnis speakers.....Ive never heard or seen the Podiums 0.5 in person but from the pics it seems they too also use a spine/brace with some type of surround holding the nomex honeycomb to the frame very similar in that retrospect to Bertagni's design.

If you are happy with your free floating panels then that it is all that matters as I am happy with my Bertagni designed panels....But if you are not satisfied with your panels you can try something else to perfect them to your liking....I am not saying you have to follow my way but do what ever you want to find the sound that is just right for you.

Have a good one Steve, good luck with your panel designs.

[OZZIOZZI]

Hi BEndingwave. A few things I would still like to ask about your panels. Do you treat the panels with PVA/water mix on one or both surfaces and how exactly do you mount the panels to their surround? Are the panels free from the surround with a gap only filled by the foam, is the foam all round or just in a few places. Do you round the corners of the panels? do you screw or glue the exciters to the spines?

I would also be interested in what you achieve with the DAEX25 exciters as they are the ones I have been using for my experiments.

 I also have some commercial panels with builtin exciters made by various manufacturers but branded NXT somewhere on their surround. These use a composite panel material around 1/8" thick driven by a medium size exciter probably around 5W. And usually come with a subwoofer/amp for the whole system. Very nice BMR/DML loudspeaker sound, but limited SPL of course. If you see some cheap ($5-10) at a garage sale or thrift shop they make VERY nice compact computer speakers. Sorry the picture is upside-down.


Cheers

Ozziozzi

[Bendingwave]

Hey OZZ, yes I treat the front and back with PVA/water mix but I do not use the 50/50 ratio instead I use the 70/30 ratio of 70% water and 30% glue....I also paint only the front of the panels with high gloss enamel oil based paint 1 coat.

I use the frost king 3/4 inch foam where one side of the foam is sticky so you only need to use glue on the other side. Foam is mounted on the back edge of the panel that will be mounted to the frame....There is 2 ways you can mount the panels to the surrounds....The first way is to modify the edges of the panels like in this picture > http://mlm-s2-p.mlstatic.com/bafles-raros-bertagni-electroacoustic-systems-no-tecnics-12737-MLM20066287131_032014-F.jpg

The second way which is easier is to just modify the foam buy cutting sections of the foam and spacing them out 2 inches apart evenly around the back side edge of panel but do not use any foam on or too close to the corners....yes I round the corners I just cut off the very tip of the corner and sand it evenly.....The exciters with the threaded screw holes I use screws but the ones without the screw holes I use adhesive to secure them to the spine.

The DAEX25FHE is one of the best bang for the buck over all exciter....Even its terminals are better then other exciters as other exciters the hole to wire them is so small I cant barely fit 20 gauge wire. lol...The DAEX25FHE is also a vented exciter so the sound will radiate from the back of the exciter as well. You can change the sound of the exciter by taping up and covering some of the vents like every other vent....covering up the vents can increase accuracy in sound but covering up too much of the vents will decrease that open spaciousness so its just personal preference. I only have 1 pair of those exciters as my design requires 2 exciters so I need to use mostly 8ohm exciters....I do not know why P.E. makes more 4ohm exciters then 8ohms.

Ah yes I have seen those type of speakers before, if I remember correctly they are the Teac brand utilizing NXT technology/exciters...I seen one on craigslist for $10.00 but it was sold...Seen another but it came with the receiver/cd player for $40.00 but I only wanted the speakers so I did not buy it.

[Bendingwave]

I wanted to add my experience of how I set up my DML panels correctly in my room. First and foremost DML panels especially the front main speakers should always be on the floor to maximize the lower frequencies and keep the sound tighter...I found that the higher up the speakers are placed like on stands or on a shelf will make them sound more diffused the higher one goes which could be caused by ceiling reflections due to DML panels wide dispersion and imaging...Placing surround DML speakers on stands or bookshelfs are ok but not the front main speakers.......They should be at least 1 feet away from the back walls if possible, preferably 2 feet being more optimal....I have laminate wood floors. One of the best solutions I found that worked really well for my DML panels is placing bass/isolation pads directly under ALL the DML speakers decreases the resonance and reflections and makes the DML speakers sound more tight and accurate. A DML subwoofer should be placed on the ground and lower then the all the other DML speakers.

I hope some of these tips can help you with your DML panels. Good luck to all.

[OZZIOZZI]

Hi Bendingwave. Thanks for the tips. Heres one for you and anyone reading this thread. The only other thing I have yet to try is what Goebels Speakers calls an impedance linearization circuit which I take to be a Zobel circuit across the exciter. I suspect they might also use a peak correcting circuit but I am a bit of a minimalist when it comes to XOs.so I might pass on that. I also have no measuring equipment apart from RTA on my phone, so I usually trust my ears.

Ozziozzi

[Bendingwave]

Hey OZZ, my knowledge is very limited with cross overs or the electrical aspect of things. In the lower models bertagni speakers only uses a capacitor as there cross over but in the bigger/higher up models they use some type of volume control like an L-pad where one can adjust the output of the mids and highs like in this picture> http://soundup.ru/images/stories/archive/Classic/Columns/bertagni-electroacoustic-sm-300-speakers/bertagni-electroacoustic-sm-300-3.jpg

I do not use any measuring equipment either....My ears is all I need. 

[OZZIOZZI]

If you are interested,  just Google ERSE crossover calculator pages which also include Zobel networks.

I guess that BES run bass panel fullrange and just fill in the top end with  a small panel crossed over where the large panel rolls off naturally through an L pad to adjust the top end brightness or add a piezo tweeter XO pretty high (10kHz------>) on top of that. Your picture looks like they have resettable breakers for the mid panel and high panel or piezo tweeter and the link enables you to use bi-amping and/or an external active XO and separate bass and mid-treble amp. Have you tried these options?

Ozziozzi

[Bendingwave]

Hey OZZ....I only use a capacitor for the crossover. I have not tried the other options in the picture as it seems to complicated and technical for my limited knowledge xo designs.

I have found another video of Bertagni speaker very similar to mine...I am mot sure if they are actually playing maybe the experts will tell me this video is a fraud also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6ekCwoxssA&t=226s

[sedge]

Hey OZZ, yes I treat the front and back with PVA/water mix but I do not use the 50/50 ratio instead I use the 70/30 ratio of 70% water and 30% glue....I also paint only the front of the panels with high gloss enamel oil based paint 1 coat.

I use the frost king 3/4 inch foam where one side of the foam is sticky so you only need to use glue on the other side. Foam is mounted on the back edge of the panel that will be mounted to the frame....There is 2 ways you can mount the panels to the surrounds....The first way is to modify the edges of the panels like in this picture > http://mlm-s2-p.mlstatic.com/bafles-raros-bertagni-electroacoustic-systems-no-tecnics-12737-MLM20066287131_032014-F.jpg

The second way which is easier is to just modify the foam buy cutting sections of the foam and spacing them out 2 inches apart evenly around the back side edge of panel but do not use any foam on or too close to the corners....yes I round the corners I just cut off the very tip of the corner and sand it evenly.....The exciters with the threaded screw holes I use screws but the ones without the screw holes I use adhesive to secure them to the spine.

The DAEX25FHE is one of the best bang for the buck over all exciter....Even its terminals are better then other exciters as other exciters the hole to wire them is so small I cant barely fit 20 gauge wire. lol...The DAEX25FHE is also a vented exciter so the sound will radiate from the back of the exciter as well. You can change the sound of the exciter by taping up and covering some of the vents like every other vent....covering up the vents can increase accuracy in sound but covering up too much of the vents will decrease that open spaciousness so its just personal preference. I only have 1 pair of those exciters as my design requires 2 exciters so I need to use mostly 8ohm exciters....I do not know why P.E. makes more 4ohm exciters then 8ohms.

Ah yes I have seen those type of speakers before, if I remember correctly they are the Teac brand utilizing NXT technology/exciters...I seen one on craigslist for $10.00 but it was sold...Seen another but it came with the receiver/cd player for $40.00 but I only wanted the speakers so I did not buy it.

Bendingwave
I must point out that telling people to cover up vent holes without warning them that doing so could destroy there exciter's and also melt the panel. It's like not putting water in your car radiator because you think it sounds better ?
The vents are there for forced cooling of the coils and to reduce noise ,bertagni new he had to reduce the temperature of his coils or he would be doing serious repair jobs to melted poly panels.
As for making all the difference to the sound from front to the back 
I have used exciter's with there vent holes blocked mounted on spines ,for test reason's only ,with very little difference in sound if any? Although a ten watt exciter will go down to 20hz and lower on a large panel,but if you mount the exciter on a spine you will probably find it will roll off fast at about 40hz .
Bertagnis work as a piston in this area ,a free floating panel as POL said,  does not !


Once again Having two exciter's on a single panel will interfere with each other( combing effects).
Tectonics use four exciter's to a panel ,and use two panels,the exciter's look as if they are using nxt positioning.
Tectonics minimise combing by xo ing to a ribbon tweeter at about 6k or so.
This would mean no combing effects above 6k.
Steve