AudioCircle

Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Danny Richie on 10 Aug 2017, 09:12 pm

Title: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 10 Aug 2017, 09:12 pm
(http://gr-research.com/pics/new%20neo2.jpg)

All looks great so far. Now off to measure and test a batch of them to confirm the factory measurements that were taken before they shipped.

More details coming...  :thumb:
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: SoCalWJS on 10 Aug 2017, 09:52 pm
(http://gr-research.com/pics/new%20neo2.jpg)

All looks great so far. Now off to measure and test a batch of them to confirm the factory measurements that were taken before they shipped.

More details coming...  :thumb:
:o

 :beer:

Fingers crossed for good news. It would be wonderful to see these work out.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: S Clark on 10 Aug 2017, 10:00 pm
Very good news.  Can't wait for the measurements.   :thumb:
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: mlundy57 on 10 Aug 2017, 10:14 pm
+1  :thumb:
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: ebag4 on 10 Aug 2017, 10:43 pm
Very good news.  Can't wait for the measurements.   :thumb:
Me either :thumb: :thumb:

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: bdp24 on 11 Aug 2017, 12:28 am
Danny, any plans for a Neo 8?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: JakeJ on 11 Aug 2017, 01:15 am
Wow!  Good on ya, Danny, I imagine it took some work to get this together.  Fingers crossed they pass the tests.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: sandbagger on 11 Aug 2017, 01:28 am
SWEET
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 11 Aug 2017, 08:35 pm
Okay, I measured a group of them and the measurements looked real good. I think the consistency is a little better than the ones I used to get from BG. And the responses sure look good in the NX-Otica baffle with wave guide that I was measuring them in.

BG made these in two versions. There was a standard version that had five rows of magnets and then a pdr version that only had three rows of magnets and a row of felt filling the two outside rows on both sides. The pdr version had reduced sensitivity due to less motor strength. Also, the added felt on the sides falls under a patent that BG owned. And it is now owned by new owners, Christy Digital.

What I had BG do for me was build a base unit with all five rows of magnets but add the felt to the front side only. This gave the improved off axis response of the pdr version while keeping the higher sensitivity of the base model.

So for the new GR Neo 3 I also had them build these as base models with all five rows of magnets. So sensitivity is kept high.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/gr%20neo3a.jpg)

I had the connectors made from Copper instead of Tin and the film is the yellow colored Kapton instead of Kaladex. Also, the thin felt mounted to the diaphragm is white instead of black. So they are easily identified as the new GR Neo 3.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/gr%20neo4.jpg)

Now if I sell them with felt on the outside rows like the pdr version from BG then I am opening myself up for a patent suit. So they will be sold as seen here and open in all rows, front and back.

However, my testing reveals that a thick black yard feed through the outer rows produces the same effect and response as the felt used in the BG models.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/gr%20neo3b.jpg)

So I can supply the tweeters and the yarn, but you guys will need to install the yarn yourselves. It is quite easy though.

Just wrap a little tape around the end of the yarn so that you can feed it through the outer rows.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/gr%20neo3c.jpg)

Sliding it through with a toothpick is very easy. And then just pull it up and out in the end.

Then just trim off the tape on the end and push the end down into the outer hole using the end of a zip tie.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/gr%20neo3e.jpg)

Then trim the other end off and do the same.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/gr%20neo3f.jpg)

It's pretty easy and just takes a few minutes. Just don't use anything magnetically conductive or the magnets will try and grab it.

And even though these are an improved version of the tweeter I can still come in on the price just under the sales price of the BG Neo 3. So I'll be listing them for $85 each.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: jeffh on 11 Aug 2017, 09:17 pm
This looks great.  Will these increase the sensitivity of your existing designs?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: ebag4 on 11 Aug 2017, 10:28 pm
It sounds like we will have to add a resistor to the tweeter circuit if we are running PDRs currently, is that correct?

So for the new GR Neo 3 I also had them build these as base models with all five rows of magnets. So sensitivity is kept high.

Thanks,
Ed
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 12 Aug 2017, 12:05 am
It sounds like we will have to add a resistor to the tweeter circuit if we are running PDRs currently, is that correct?

Thanks,
Ed

Sensitivity is the same as the custom Neo 3's that were made for Serenity Acoustics.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 12 Aug 2017, 01:57 am
Sensitivity is the same as the custom Neo 3's that were made for Serenity Acoustics.

If subbing these into the netowrk desingned for the  standard Neo 3 PDR,   one may also need to alter the high pass cap value a  bit  (Danny ? )
Been playing around a bit with some MTM's, the Serenity  Neo 3's  and a modded  network I'll report on  one of these days soon, sounding  very good 

jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: rollo on 12 Aug 2017, 03:55 pm
Looking real good there Danny.


charles
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 12 Aug 2017, 06:04 pm
Danny, did you try out the diffraction mod that got posted a little while back on these?  If it really does the trick, might be another way to differentiate the GR model  tweeters from the standard BG if you could have them manufacture the needed shape into the front plate?

So... does this mean the neo-10/neo-3 unobtainium line array is back on the table?  :green:
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 12 Aug 2017, 06:09 pm
Danny, did you try out the diffraction mod that got posted a little while back on these?  If it really does the trick, might be another way to differentiate the GR model  tweeters from the standard BG if you could have them manufacture the needed shape into the front plate?

I'd like to try those out.

Quote
So... does this mean the neo-10/neo-3 unobtainium line array is back on the table?  :green:

I have tweeters for them and Neo 10's can be picked up through Parts Express. So if someone really wanted to build a pair then I could make it happen. 
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Oscillate on 12 Aug 2017, 08:44 pm
"...the neo-10/neo-3 unobtainium line array..."

Which line array are you refering to? ...OBLS, LS-X?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: DeeJayBump on 12 Aug 2017, 08:56 pm
Line Force arrays--which were completed, tested and ready for production when the Christy Digital acqusition made the drivers unavailable--and (possibly) the Singularity arrays, IIRC.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 12 Aug 2017, 08:58 pm
These:

(http://gr-research.com/pics/616inroom7.jpg)
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: mlundy57 on 12 Aug 2017, 09:20 pm
Boy-oh-Boy those were something special. Good thing I'm not the envious type, otherwise I'd have to stop listening to music
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: HAL on 13 Aug 2017, 12:07 am
Glad to see the new Neo3 style tweeters available.

Hmmm... only need 48 of them for the planar line arrays.  This is tempting!  :D
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: drmike on 13 Aug 2017, 04:51 pm
can these be used in the wedgies?
thanks,
drmike
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 13 Aug 2017, 04:55 pm
can these be used in the wedgies?
thanks,
drmike

Yes.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 13 Aug 2017, 06:22 pm
and  we should have  Wedgie  flat packs  available  soon

jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: mlundy57 on 13 Aug 2017, 06:24 pm
Once the yarn is added is the sensitivity still higher or does the yarn bring the sensitivity down to the level of the PDR version?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: SoCalWJS on 13 Aug 2017, 08:08 pm
These:

(http://gr-research.com/pics/616inroom7.jpg)
:drool:

I thought those were some of the coolest looking speakers ever when you first posted those pictures. I was running some rough numbers just for the drivers on the Neo 3/10's and it adds up pretty quick (32 Neo 3's & 16 Neo 10's if I'm counting right). Do you think you would ever turn those into a kit (as far as X-over parts and Plans), or is this just a one-off that may never come to pass? If my ship ever comes in (or when we sell the other house  :green:), I dream of owning/making something like this.

Any impressions on these Speakers in comparison to the Serenity Super 7's or the Mockingbird LS-X's? Could you get away with 2 Servo's per side, or is 3 a better match? (or is it strictly room size and listener preference?). I imagine building the panels requires some fairly advanced skills.

Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: S Clark on 13 Aug 2017, 10:41 pm
:drool:

Any impressions on these Speakers in comparison to the Serenity Super 7's or the Mockingbird LS-X's?
I'm fortunate to have heard all of the above, for several hours at a time.  The Serenity Super 7's were at the top or top 3 (depending on taste) at a RMAF.  The Mockingbird line sources may have been even a bit better.  Those all electrostatic line sources were a clear step up again, and not a small step up.  I have very good speakers.  My LS9's are among the best I've heard on many types of music... but they sounded soooo slow in comparison.  :oops:
Now having said that, I know what I have invested in them ( built them myself), and just the frame of the new prototype exceeded my expense... by a lot.   
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Coldfusion on 13 Aug 2017, 10:56 pm
and  we should have  Wedgie  flat packs  available  soon

jay
:thumb:
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: SoCalWJS on 14 Aug 2017, 12:06 am
I'm fortunate to have heard all of the above, for several hours at a time.  The Serenity Super 7's were at the top or top 3 (depending on taste) at a RMAF.  The Mockingbird line sources may have been even a bit better.  Those all electrostatic line sources were a clear step up again, and not a small step up.  I have very good speakers.  My LS9's are among the best I've heard on many types of music... but they sounded soooo slow in comparison.  :oops:
Now having said that, I know what I have invested in them ( built them myself), and just the frame of the new prototype exceeded my expense... by a lot.   
Thanks.

What you say about the Serenity Super 7's and LS-X is kind of how I felt after hearing them at RMAF's (in different years). I'm wondering if the new speakers (Line Force?) start sounding closer to Electrostats and/or Ribbons in the Mid Bass on up to the top end, but with a better dispersion pattern and less issue over power handling and volume.....

I'm afraid that if there is no easy way to make the frames for the Neo's (tough to tell from the photo(s) I've seen), that it requires very advanced skills or CNC. Looks like the feet/legs are a bit of a trick as well, but I think they help make the speaker look so good.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 14 Aug 2017, 12:23 am
If I remember correctly, the N10/N3 array frames are extruded and or machined aluminum - no lumber involved.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: SoCalWJS on 14 Aug 2017, 12:47 am
If I remember correctly, the N10/N3 array frames are extruded and or machined aluminum - no lumber involved.
Just wondering if there is a way to do it differently (easier and cheaper), which might result in a bit less rigid structure, but still get most of the potential out of the design.  :scratch:

 :dunno:
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 14 Aug 2017, 01:14 am
Some mor epics here
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=125667.20
Remeber, these were done from aluminum so  there is  substantial expesne.

This is something we've considered  cnc'ing out of  1"  or 1.25" Medex but haven't pursued as there  wren't really tweeters  available.  If there  were interest, it   would be something  we'd  look at 

jay


jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Ric Schultz on 14 Aug 2017, 06:19 am
You don't need an aluminum baffle to make a great line source using Neo 3s and 10s.....check this out:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=icm8ojuu9fpe4n6k814jpbektdcpnkv5&topic=142235.0

This is a four neo 10 line source but you just build it taller and add more drivers.  Three 3/4 inch pieces of highly refined particle board and 16 ply plywood green glued together.....cheap and rigid.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: S Clark on 14 Aug 2017, 12:20 pm
You don't need an aluminum baffle to make a great line source using Neo 3s and 10s.....

This is true.   I have a pair of great line source speakers.  My LS9's are great speakers, and were the best thing Danny had designed... until he created the Serenity 7's, and then the OB line source 9's, which were the best until he designed those aluminum prototypes. And they left everything else behind. 
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: SoCalWJS on 14 Aug 2017, 01:07 pm
You don't need an aluminum baffle to make a great line source using Neo 3s and 10s.....check this out:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=icm8ojuu9fpe4n6k814jpbektdcpnkv5&topic=142235.0

This is a four neo 10 line source but you just build it taller and add more drivers.  Three 3/4 inch pieces of highly refined particle board and 16 ply plywood green glued together.....cheap and rigid.
Thanks - that is closer to what I can see as a possibly realistic goal for the ideas rolling around in the back of my little brain.

That's what I was trying to figure out - if you made it out of MDF, how much performance do you lose as opposed to an Aluminum (or similar) frame. I think that someday I might try to tackle a project similar to the one in your link if it's out of MDF and heavy Ply. I can probably acquire the tools needed for such a project and after a bit of practice, turn out something that looks "OK" (I am no woodworker by any stretch).

I know that, as an example, Magico builds their big speaker frames out of metal to get very high rigidity, and other companies use multiple layers of stacked, CNC cut MDF or Baltic Birch to do the same thing.

Extremely high rigidity is a goal, but how big of a difference is there going to be with MDF?

The good news though is that the Drivers are now going to be available again, and those interested can start dreaming of these big (or smaller) projects again.  :thumb:

*****
PS: Did you ever take any measurements of the speakers in your link?
*****
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: HAL on 14 Aug 2017, 01:30 pm
I used 1"x 2" oak lumber for the open baffles with 1" x 4" bolted cross strips for spacing at top and bottom for stability.  Added a pine board for the wing with piano hinges.  Added a leg on the other side of the baffle for stability.

If you slot the 1" x 4" oak strips mounting holes, then you have adjustment range for mounting the planar drivers.



Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: cujobob on 14 Aug 2017, 07:49 pm
Please don't use white felt. I feel like it's going to get filthy over time and look really bad. Otherwise, super excited to see these back! Loved the previous designs and I'm sure this will mean good things from GR.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: gregfisk on 14 Aug 2017, 08:19 pm
Please don't use white felt. I feel like it's going to get filthy over time and look really bad. Otherwise, super excited to see these back! Loved the previous designs and I'm sure this will mean good things from GR.

This makes a lot of since, plus black will look so much better too.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 15 Aug 2017, 12:00 am
The reason we went with milled aluminum on that one is for strength. And it allowed us to keep the baffle width really small and keep the drivers really close together. And that is a pretty big deal as well.

And yes it was pricey. But when building a speaker at this level, why not?

When you mill it out of wood then the baffle width increases and there is a lot more added surface reflections.



Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: SoCalWJS on 15 Aug 2017, 01:32 am
The reason we went with milled aluminum on that one is for strength. And it allowed us to keep the baffle width really small and keep the drivers really close together. And that is a pretty big deal as well.

And yes it was pricey. But when building a speaker at this level, why not?

When you mill it out of wood then the baffle width increases and there is a lot more added surface reflections.
Interesting. So the material of the baffle affects the FR that much?

I guess it makes sense in the higher frequencies, but I don't think that had occurred to me (makes sense when I think about it - think of side walls in your listening wall made of the different materials). Is that correct?

Could a coating on the MDF (as opposed to paint) make a difference and reduce the width?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 15 Aug 2017, 01:13 pm
Interesting. So the material of the baffle affects the FR that much?

I guess it makes sense in the higher frequencies, but I don't think that had occurred to me (makes sense when I think about it - think of side walls in your listening wall made of the different materials). Is that correct?

Could a coating on the MDF (as opposed to paint) make a difference and reduce the width?

Yes, it can have a significant effect.

The thickness of the material effects the drivers response too as it loads the drivers slightly and places edges on four sides (mounting through hole) that causes edge diffraction. So 1/2" thick Aluminum has advantages there as well.

Coating the edges with something that will be effective requires some pretty thick felt. It wouldn't be pretty, but would have some effectiveness.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: orientalexpress on 15 Aug 2017, 01:23 pm
Just curious ,how much does 1/2 inches mill aluminium cost for a pair like Denny cost? :D

lap
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: tasar on 15 Aug 2017, 01:32 pm
Let's see the "N" series out with these.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: rollo on 15 Aug 2017, 02:41 pm
  Time to Tweeter up boys. Get those tools out and get a working. :thumb:


charles
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Ric Schultz on 15 Aug 2017, 07:29 pm
As shown on the line source I linked, if you mount the Neos directly on the face of the wood baffle and then cover the entire front with felt then there is no diffraction.  Also in the back (no matter how thick the baffle is) you simply flare out the rear behind the drivers (like a waveguide) and felt this flare and the entire rear panel.....again no diffraction effects.  Cheap and incredible sounding.  When you use a combo of 16 ply plywood and highly refined MDF and use Green glue in between the layers you get a very, very rigid baffle.  Aluminum might give you 5 % more........for thousands of $ more.  Use better xover parts (Clarity cap CMRs with copper foil Jupiter bypasses and use 12 gauge Jantzen wax paper copper foil Inductor on the midrange and 14 or 16 gauge on the tweet and use great wire like Neotech, Vhaudio, etc)......this is where the money should go.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 15 Aug 2017, 07:48 pm
The problem with that is   the front all covered in felt is   butt ugly, who wants to  build a killer set of   speakers  and then felt the front ?
If you   put a round over or chamfer on the rear side, you'll have to widen the baffles to make room  for the featurs.  A 45 degree chamfer will extend "out"  = to the depth it is.
I hadn't realized the aluminum baffles were only .5" thick so going to a   1.25" baffle like I suggested above   is not really a solution.  However, there are some  really cool composites out there, how they compare to aluminum in terms of  strength, resonance resistance, cost etc would have to be determined

jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 15 Aug 2017, 08:25 pm
Quote
The problem with that is the front all covered in felt is butt ugly, who wants to  build a killer set of  speakers and then felt the front ?

This is completely correct. No one buying a speaker at this level wants it to look like a DIY project.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: mresseguie on 15 Aug 2017, 10:53 pm
The problem with that is   the front all covered in felt is   butt ugly, who wants to  build a killer set of   speakers  and then felt the front ?
If you   put a round over or chamfer on the rear side, you'll have to widen the baffles to make room  for the featurs.  A 45 degree chamfer will extend "out"  = to the depth it is.
I hadn't realized the aluminum baffles were only .5" thick so going to a   1.25" baffle like I suggested above   is not really a solution.  However, there are some  really cool composites out there, how they compare to aluminum in terms of  strength, resonance resistance, cost etc would have to be determined

jay

Not that I'm a cabinet maker, but would using HDF either alone or in conjunction with another material like MDF or BB accomplish what you seek? I know HDF isn't cheap, but it must be less expensive than aluminum, no?

Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 15 Aug 2017, 11:23 pm
Not that I'm a cabinet maker, but would using HDF either alone or in conjunction with another material like MDF or BB accomplish what you seek? I know HDF isn't cheap, but it must be less expensive than aluminum, no?

Hey Micheal :wave:
Not if   the baffle is  only to be  .5"  thick. But , as mentioned  above, there   are  composites out there that are pretty amazing. The question would really be if  they will compare to aluminum ( I know  one in particular   will)  and  how the cost measures up

jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: gregfisk on 16 Aug 2017, 04:38 am
What about using a corian type product which is also .5 inches deep?

It would be way less expensive and if you rough it up a bit it should take paint.

The only problem I see with that is resonance and I know nothing about that but what I do know is that it is very rigid.

Any thoughts?

Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: S Clark on 16 Aug 2017, 06:01 am
One of my students made speakers from Corian.  I remember the sheets were much less rigid than plywood. I suspect that the fine particle in resin nature of it offers little strength length wise. 
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: oz_audio_todd on 16 Aug 2017, 12:17 pm
Sorry guys, I hate to put this tread back on track, but for the ppl in the cheap seats, can someone please explain what is right/ wrong with these new tweeters, that we have to modify them before they can be used??
Do they have to be modified, will they work without, are there f/r or sensitivity issues with or without? (again, so to re-rail the tread..)
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 16 Aug 2017, 03:16 pm
Sorry guys, I hate to put this tread back on track, but for the ppl in the cheap seats, can someone please explain what is right/ wrong with these new tweeters, that we have to modify them before they can be used??
Do they have to be modified, will they work without, are there f/r or sensitivity issues with or without? (again, so to re-rail the tread..)

You can run them as is no problem. If you want the improved dispersion that you get by blocking the outer rows (like the BG pdr version) then I have illustrated how to do that at the first of this thread. I can send you the yard and it is real easy to do. But you'll have to do it yourself. I am not going to sell them that way. It could be considered a patent violation if I sold them that way. But when you get them then they are yours, and you can do whatever you want with them including what I illustrated earlier.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: gregfisk on 16 Aug 2017, 03:29 pm
One of my students made speakers from Corian.  I remember the sheets were much less rigid than plywood. I suspect that the fine particle in resin nature of it offers little strength length wise.

This is interesting Scott, I have two sheets of material that is used for shower walls and it is way more rigid than .5" ply. If you hold it at an angle with the short end sitting on the ground you cannot get it to flex at all, it is super stiff. If you hold a 4x8 sheet of .5" plywood the same way it bows toward the ground and is springy. This must be a different type of material than corian but it is definitely very stiff and less money than corian as well.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: jparkhur on 17 Aug 2017, 07:05 pm
Danny. Remind us. How low can the neo3 go ?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: S Clark on 17 Aug 2017, 07:43 pm
This is interesting Scott, I have two sheets of material that is used for shower walls and it is way more rigid than .5" ply. If you hold it at an angle with the short end sitting on the ground you cannot get it to flex at all, it is super stiff. If you hold a 4x8 sheet of .5" plywood the same way it bows toward the ground and is springy. This must be a different type of material than corian but it is definitely very stiff and less money than corian as well.
It's possible that there are several formulations for the stuff.  What I remember was that a local cabinet guy had given the kid several 8' strips about 15" wide that we cut for his bookshelf speaker project. IF my memory is correct, it had more give than 3/4 plywood... and obviously a lot more weight.  Please note the capital IF.  I could easily have this wrong, since it was a good while back. 
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 17 Aug 2017, 08:59 pm
Danny. Remind us. How low can the neo3 go ?

In the BG face plate, and with the deep back cup, I crossed them easily at 1.8kHz.

In the wave guide and in the open baffle I have crossed them as low as 1.2kHz. 
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 26 Aug 2017, 10:57 pm
These can now be ordered online: http://gr-research.com/grneo3.aspx   :thumb:
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: oz_audio_todd on 27 Aug 2017, 10:31 pm
Does that also mean that the N's and OB's are back, or will they require tweaking first?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: jcotner on 27 Aug 2017, 10:39 pm
Does that also mean that the N's and OB's are back, or will they require tweaking first?

They have been back with the BG drivers. I think Danny was buying BG drivers from Parts Express
to sell them.
I was wondering was how Danny was going to handle it going forward. IMHO it might be best
to offer kits with a choice of driver as not everyone will want to do the modification.
At the very least he will have to remove the references to BG if he sells them only with the new
GR drivers. There is also the deep cup and regular Neo as well, so I don't know how that all works out.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 28 Aug 2017, 03:13 pm
Does that also mean that the N's and OB's are back, or will they require tweaking first?

All kits listed on our site are available.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: studley on 31 Aug 2017, 11:03 am
Not that I'm a cabinet maker, but would using HDF either alone or in conjunction with another material like MDF or BB accomplish what you seek? I know HDF isn't cheap, but it must be less expensive than aluminum, no?
Panzerholz would probably be a good alternative, but probably costs as much as aluminium.

In the UK if you search around it's possible to buy Beech plywood.  It's a good bit stronger / more rigid than birch ply.  A CLD baffle made with 2 layers of Beech ply and bonded with green glue might be worth looking at.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Skeeboingen on 15 Sep 2017, 02:23 am
I am curious how you think these would do in an omni-directional set up, like facing upwards toward a cone?

~S
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: mlundy57 on 15 Sep 2017, 04:25 am
I am curious how you think these would do in an omni-directional set up, like facing upwards toward a cone?

~S

That would be the O-3


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=168501)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=168502)


http://gr-research.com/o-3.aspx

I haven't heard this model but the X series version, the X-Omni, sounds very good.

Mike
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: srb on 15 Sep 2017, 08:25 am
That would be the O-3

I think Skeeboingen is referring to the tweeter facing upwards with into an omni-directional cone reflector?

 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=168503)
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Skeeboingen on 15 Sep 2017, 04:02 pm
THAT"S EXACTLY IT!!!  Thanks srb, how does it do?

~S
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 15 Sep 2017, 04:29 pm
I've tried that before and really wanted it to work with some small full range drivers. I even made a omni flare using a woofer cone filled with plaster that set on an aluminum phase plug.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/flare.jpg)

The problem is that short wavelengths don't reflect very well. You also get some compression and throat cancellation. So the response is very week up top and pretty choppy.

It can yield better results and add some room ambiance with nothing over it and with a response limited to the top octave. That way there is no on axis output. 
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Skeeboingen on 15 Sep 2017, 05:06 pm
I'm still in the theoretical stage, I was thinking dipole, but was interested in omni-directional for ambience.  Actually I was looking at dock piling caps for the cone.  What about one of each?  One pointed up, and one dipole?

~S
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 15 Sep 2017, 05:20 pm
I'm still in the theoretical stage, I was thinking dipole, but was interested in omni-directional for ambience.  Actually I was looking at dock piling caps for the cone.  What about one of each?  One pointed up, and one dipole?

~S

It might be a little much to add one to another version that is already in a dipole configuration. It might add a little if the room is over damped.

I experimented with an up firing tweeter on the top of the LGK's.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/bb5.jpg)

It worked out really well and did add a layer of ambiance. However, it only worked really well if the voice coil of the up facing tweeter was aligned with the voice coil of the LGK driver. If it got off a little bit then it tended to be as much of a disruption. I was using a small TB tweeter with a Neo motor and a very small face plate. It sat on top of the box overhanging the front a little. There was just no way to mount it and make it look good. But I did get it to add some positive attributes to the presentations.

Another good application for the up facing tweeter is with larger full range or wide band drivers that drop off in the top octave. And the deeper voice coils of the larger drivers will more easily allow alignment.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Skeeboingen on 15 Sep 2017, 05:52 pm
Sometimes I think I may be trying to re-invent the wheel, forgetting that it will still be round! :duh:

I have a virtual pipe organ, with the speakers sitting on either of me as I play.  They also double as our stereo speakers, so they point out to the room instead of at me, hence my desire for more omni-directional.  Point source is of less importance here than to others, but fidelity is crucial.  Almost everybody that has a rig like mine uses self powered near field monitors, almost always Behringer 2031s with a sub or 2.  Some use as many as 40 front speakers, plus midfield and rear for surround!  I can't afford all that, but I do want good sound, so I appreciate the input.

~S
Title: Line Force Arrays
Post by: studley on 10 Oct 2017, 09:04 pm
Everyone who heard the Line Force Arrays seems to be of the view that they have never heard anything better.  It would be great to give those comments some context, so I wondered if the relevant people would care to say what other top flight speakers they are familiar with but they think were bested by the Line Force Arrays.
Title: Re: Line Force Arrays
Post by: Danny Richie on 10 Oct 2017, 09:35 pm
Everyone who heard the Line Force Arrays seems to be of the view that they have never heard anything better.  It would be great to give those comments some context, so I wondered if the relevant people would care to say what other top flight speakers they are familiar with but they think were bested by the Line Force Arrays.

Probably the strongest testament to that came from long time industry loudspeaker designer Igor Levitski. He designed all of the drivers being used in that speaker as well as many others. He has quite the trained ear and listened to those speaker intently for over an hour. He said the the system was the best that he had ever heard.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=137990.0
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: studley on 10 Oct 2017, 10:29 pm
Thanks for that Danny.  Quite a testament!
Title: Re: Line Force Arrays
Post by: SoCalWJS on 11 Oct 2017, 12:16 am
Probably the strongest testament to that came from long time industry loudspeaker designer Igor Levitski. He designed all of the drivers being used in that speaker as well as many others. He has quite the trained ear and listened to those speaker intently for over an hour. He said the the system was the best that he had ever heard.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=137990.0
So is there any chance that with the new drivers available, the Line Force Arrays could see the light of day?

I would imagine they would be very expensive with the machined Aluminum.
Title: Re: Line Force Arrays
Post by: Captainhemo on 11 Oct 2017, 03:16 am
So is there any chance that with the new drivers available, the Line Force Arrays could see the light of day?

I would imagine they would be very expensive with the machined Aluminum.

Yeah, IIRC that pair   was around the  $60k  neighborhood with a set of triple 12 OB servo subs.   But  , when  one is looking for that level of  performance,  that price is  relatiely  cheap. 
We looked into doing a couple other designs in  aluminum  as well as  a couple other  materials,  it  does get pretty spendy in a  hurry .

jay
Title: Re: Line Force Arrays
Post by: Danny Richie on 11 Oct 2017, 02:51 pm
So is there any chance that with the new drivers available, the Line Force Arrays could see the light of day?

I would imagine they would be very expensive with the machined Aluminum.

They were very expensive to build. But, the Neo 10's are available from Parts Express and I have plenty of tweeters build just like the custom version that was made for Serenity Acoustics. Anybody serious enough about them can have a pair custom built.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: studley on 11 Oct 2017, 03:08 pm
Is CHrisitie Digital now making the Neo 10s or is it just old stock that Parts Exp have?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 11 Oct 2017, 03:37 pm
Is CHrisitie Digital now making the Neo 10s or is it just old stock that Parts Exp have?

I am pretty sure that Christie is supplying Parts Express with new drivers now. They are still being made at Dia-ichi just as they were before.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Oscillate on 11 Oct 2017, 10:27 pm
"Anybody serious enough about them can have a pair custom built

I feel, or at least believe that the frames could be made of something other
than custom milled aluminum? ...that would put them within $ reach :)
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 11 Oct 2017, 11:15 pm
"Anybody serious enough about them can have a pair custom built

I feel, or at least believe that the frames could be made of something other
than custom milled aluminum? ...that would put them within $ reach :)

My research didn't yield any better solution.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: corndog71 on 12 Oct 2017, 01:30 pm
Does it have to be open baffle?  Just thinking back inside the box.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 12 Oct 2017, 03:34 pm
Does it have to be open baffle?  Just thinking back inside the box.

No, you can put the tweeters in their own little air space and use them in sealed or ported designs.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: corndog71 on 12 Oct 2017, 07:09 pm
So the question you answered was these speakers can't be recreated with an MDF cabinet.  I guess what I'm asking is could a similar speaker be done but with a solid back cabinet. 

(http://gr-research.com/pics/616inroom7.jpg)
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 12 Oct 2017, 07:46 pm
(http://gr-research.com/pics/driver%20holes.jpg)

There is just not enough material there to CNC it out of MDF. The frame would become so weak that it would almost snap under its own weight.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 12 Oct 2017, 07:51 pm
A similar speaker could be built with a sealed back, but it would still really need a baffle made from Aluminum or something just as strong.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: *Scotty* on 12 Oct 2017, 08:03 pm
I wonder if Corian or clone of similar material could be used. If the depth of the thinest portions between the panels was increased maybe there would be enough strength to stay in one piece. Also a series of aerodynamic D shaped supports could be glued across the back like the rungs of a ladder to increase the strength of the panel.
Scotty
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Keithh on 12 Oct 2017, 08:12 pm
Don't know if they still make it, but Appleply used to make a plywood that looks like
Baltic Birch but was much heavier and stiff as a steel plate. Picking up a 3/4" sheet of it
had to be as heavy as 2 sheets of 3/4" MDF. It was the nicest plywood I have ever
worked with.

It was an expensive special order product and the buyer at work said it could be made in any
thickness up to 3". But I have not seen any in years so it might be another great product CARB
regulations killed off.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Oscillate on 12 Oct 2017, 09:35 pm
"...but it would still really need a baffle made from Aluminum or something just as strong."

I understand. What I was thinking was a 1/8" thick front baffle made of aluminum or steel
plate. The remainder of the thickness of the baffle could be of MDF or wood that the metal
plate was fastened onto.

I think a lot of us 'hobbyists' could easily work with 1/8" thick metal plate without special tools.

...come to think of it, you could also sandwich MDF or wood between two metal plates?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 12 Oct 2017, 10:38 pm
Yeah you might be able to figure out ways to sandwich materials, but the real cost is the CNC milling. While the Aluminum is not cheap, it's worth it.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Ric Schultz on 13 Oct 2017, 12:08 am
Again, I will say you do not need aluminum to make a great line source speaker with Neo 10s and 3s.  Look at this thread again:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=142235.0

He is using two 3/4 inch pieces of 13 ply birch plywood and a piece of 3/4 inch highly refined particle board with green glue in between all layers.  This is very rigid....is it as rigid as much thinner aluminium?  who knows.  His speaker can be made to look much better with veneering and just a small layer of felt around the front drivers....it would look very good.  You could also round and flare or sculpt the top or bases, etc, etc.  It can look as good as your imagination allows.  He did not care what they looked like (has his own basement) and therefore spent no time on looks.  You can also flare out the backs of the baffle where the drivers are to give the drivers more air to breath and more dispersion....still, I would put felt in those flares to smooth the response and, of course, felt on the wing.

I have no doubt that these speakers sound better than the big ones Danny made with the aluminum baffles because the xover parts and wire and connectors (none) are way more transparent than what Danny uses.  Maybe an aluminum baffle would give you 5 percent better sound?  Certainly the better xover parts, wire and no connectors would give you 20% better sound.

My friend Miguel, who owns the aluminum speaker that Danny had built for him, is ordering better xover parts and wire now and I am sure he will be thrilled with the difference.  The original idea for that line source speaker came from me.  I sold Miguel on the idea and made him a super modded Behringer xover to tri-amp the speakers with.  Miguel decided he wanted an aluminum baffle and tried to find someone to make it for him.  Since he as buying the servo woofs and amps from Danny he called him and they talked and that is when Danny decided to help Miguel with his "dream speaker" and then Danny could then bring out a new model of Serenity speaker based on this proto.  The next speaker up from the "super 7" that Danny had imagined was an over $100,000 monster made from carbon fiber and had a ton of drivers.....see this thread: 
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110891.0

Bottom line is you can make a seriously great (and great looking) line source using Neo drivers using 16 ply birch and highly refined particle board mit green glue.  Even the one shown with 4 Neo 10s is 96 db efficient and kicks butt.  About $3700 for the Neo 10s and 3s for a stereo pair (4 Neo 10s and 12 Neo 3s per side)....add woofs and amps (three servo 12s per side) and xover and wood and felt and veneer and xover parts and wire and you are looking at about $7000 total with everything.  Not cheap but oh my....what sound you would have.  My home made speakers use one Neo 10 and one Neo 3 per side and with great xover parts, felting, wire and no connectors (all on open baffle) it sounds really, really great.  I have no speaker envy.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: ebag4 on 13 Oct 2017, 12:20 am
I have contacted Protech Composites, I am thinking about using carbon fiber panels sandwiching a plywood middle.  Very early, no pricing yet.  It would make sense to price out the aluminum and CNC work to determine what that costs as a reference. 

Concerns for me using something other than aluminum where the drivers are screwed to the baffle are the tight tolerances and the possibility of other materials breaking out where the screws are very close to the interior edge, especially on the small braces between the drivers.

The drivers cost is known, Danny, can you give us an estimate of what the crossover costs would be?

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 13 Oct 2017, 02:20 pm
Ric, While your sandwiched wood frame does hold the drivers it also added surface reflections due to the necessary added width. The added dept also effects the drivers response. And it takes a little more than just throwing more expense into the crossover area to achieve the best sound. More importantly than that is for the crossover to be properly designed. And for these drivers, and used in this way, a first order crossover is simply not adequate for the job. Also a lack of a side wing will cause a peak in the response in the lower range. The side wing shifts it into the range where the Neo 10's are rolling off and extends their response. You might want to keep experimenting with that.

And I wouldn't be so quick to judge how something sounds until you've heard it.

Also, that model was already on the drawing board before I was contacted by Miguel. And I don't recall consulting you on the design. It was actually a variation of an in-wall version that was offered by BG. I even talked with them about doing an open baffle version a couple of years before this project started. So really Igor Levitski (the designer of the drivers) came up with and designed the first speaker to use these drivers in this way.  And my friends Igor and Pablo (owner of Dia-ichi and manufacturer of the drivers) came here to hear what I designed.  So you could say that you know a guy that is friends with the guy that designed these drivers and this speaker configuration.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: orientalexpress on 13 Oct 2017, 02:53 pm
'How much does a pair aluminum  Frame cost?if we're have enough order for a group buy that be awesome  :thumb:
I'm in
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 13 Oct 2017, 03:44 pm
'How much does a pair aluminum  Frame cost?if we're have enough order for a group buy that be awesome  :thumb:
I'm in

That's a good idea. I need to find a new supplier for them and I have a local company that I have worked with in the past that did a great job with CNC Aluminum milling. Let me see what I can do.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Keithh on 13 Oct 2017, 04:08 pm
Is there any reason that frame needs to be made by CNC?

CNC is the way to go if there big demand, but they also could be milled manually, cast, welded or glued up with adhesives.
Adhesives could be a great DIY way as the precut strips and pieces of aluminum would be fairly inexpensive.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Ric Schultz on 13 Oct 2017, 07:39 pm
Ric, While your sandwiched wood frame does hold the drivers it also added surface reflections due to the necessary added width. The added dept also effects the drivers response. And it takes a little more than just throwing more expense into the crossover area to achieve the best sound. More importantly than that is for the crossover to be properly designed. And for these drivers, and used in this way, a first order crossover is simply not adequate for the job. Also a lack of a side wing will cause a peak in the response in the lower range. The side wing shifts it into the range where the Neo 10's are rolling off and extends their response. You might want to keep experimenting with that.

And I wouldn't be so quick to judge how something sounds until you've heard it.

Also, that model was already on the drawing board before I was contacted by Miguel. And I don't recall consulting you on the design. It was actually a variation of an in-wall version that was offered by BG. I even talked with them about doing an open baffle version a couple of years before this project started. So really Igor Levitski (the designer of the drivers) came up with and designed the first speaker to use these drivers in this way.  And my friends Igor and Pablo (owner of Dia-ichi and manufacturer of the drivers) came here to hear what I designed.  So you could say that you know a guy that is friends with the guy that designed these drivers and this speaker configuration.

Using felt on the front gets rid of surface reflections and the xover I designed for Harold's speaker was not 6db per octave....it is 12db per octave.  And his speaker has a wing on it.  Where did you get the information that it does not have a wing and that it is 6db per octave?  The thread clearly shows the wing and the 12 db per octave xover.  My own speaker using one Neo 10 does not have a wing.....but it is flat to 300hz and works perfectly with two of your M165X woofers per side.  My xover between the Neo 10 and Neo 3 is also 12 db per octave.
Title: Line force questions
Post by: studley on 14 Oct 2017, 09:59 am
Danny
What's their sensitivity and what does the impedance curve look like?

Also, how far off the floor does the bottom edge of the lowest Neo 10 driver need to be?  Just thinking about floor bounce and overall height.
Title: Re: Line force questions
Post by: Danny Richie on 14 Oct 2017, 06:04 pm
Danny
What's their sensitivity and what does the impedance curve look like?

Also, how far off the floor does the bottom edge of the lowest Neo 10 driver need to be?  Just thinking about floor bounce and overall height.

Sensitivity was 97db.

It is a pretty flat impedance with a minimal drop of 3.9 ohms.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/6-16%20impedance.jpg)

And I think I had the first Neo 10 starting about 8" off the floor. It could a little higher though. In the range that they cover the floor distance won't have a lot of effect.
Title: Re: Line force questions
Post by: studley on 14 Oct 2017, 06:12 pm
Sensitivity was 97db.

It is a pretty flat impedance with a minimal drop of 3.9 ohms.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/6-16%20impedance.jpg)

And I think I had the first Neo 10 starting about 8" off the floor. It could a little higher though. In the range that they cover the floor distance won't have a lot of effect.

Nice easy load
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Skeeboingen on 17 Oct 2017, 11:07 pm
Is there any reason that frame needs to be made by CNC?

CNC is the way to go if there big demand, but they also could be milled manually, cast, welded or glued up with adhesives.
Adhesives could be a great DIY way as the precut strips and pieces of aluminum would be fairly inexpensive.

I wondered this as well.  Hardware stores like Home Depot and Lowes sell angled and flat pieces of aluminum that could be screwed and glued together.  Why wouldn't this work?

~S
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: HAL on 18 Oct 2017, 07:50 pm
GR Neo3's are here!

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170051)
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 18 Oct 2017, 08:06 pm
I think you'll like them Rich, been listeg for a  bit now in the NX-tremes up at don's place.
Have a local customer who's also been listening to them in a pair of NX-MTm's and   he seems to be  very  pleased as well    :thumb:

jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: gaelen5 on 21 Oct 2017, 01:46 am
I think you'll like them Rich, been listeg for a  bit now in the NX-tremes up at don's place.
Have a local customer who's also been listening to them in a pair of NX-MTm's and   he seems to be  very  pleased as well    :thumb:

jay

True story! I've heard the old ones, but obviously haven't compared them back to back, so all I can say is that they're amazing. I've ended up listening at louder volumes that I normally would and it never thought anything sounded harsh, nor that I was approaching their limits.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: HAL on 21 Oct 2017, 02:16 am
Jay,
Have the original GR Neo3-PDR tweeters in my N2X and Open Baffle three way with the Neo10's.  Love the way they sound.

Just getting them working with the latest version of the GR Neo3 drivers.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: tosob on 22 Oct 2017, 11:12 pm
You could use Okoume Plywood. It comes in thicknesses from 3/8 to 1 inch. It primary use is in boat building. It is very strong some is made to have no voids. If you fiberglass and epoxy it it is very strong and durable. I built a boat out of this, It is a tank. The  decks are out of 3/8, fiberglased and epoxied. I can walk all over them.

Marty
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 23 Oct 2017, 04:38 pm
Jay,
Have the original GR Neo3-PDR tweeters in my N2X and Open Baffle three way with the Neo10's.  Love the way they sound.

Just getting them working with the latest version of the GR Neo3 drivers.

Well the new tweeters (GR Neo 3)  are  more like the custom Serenity   units.  No damping on the rear side, higher sensitvity,  and a couple other    things.   they a sound great   :thumb:

jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: HAL on 23 Oct 2017, 07:40 pm
Jay,
If I remember, the GR Neo3-PDR were the ones in the Serenity speakers.  Those are what I started with in my OB 3-way, before BG sold.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 23 Oct 2017, 07:49 pm
Jay,
If I remember, the GR Neo3-PDR were the ones in the Serenity speakers.  Those are what I started with in my OB 3-way, before BG sold.

Ahhh, got ya ,  I was thining you  meant the   standard PDr GR deep  cup version with the cup removed.  So yeah,   very similar to the  Serenity version,  just a different ribbon  material  I think

jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: gstew on 21 Nov 2017, 07:25 pm
As shown on the line source I linked, if you mount the Neos directly on the face of the wood baffle and then cover the entire front with felt then there is no diffraction.  Also in the back (no matter how thick the baffle is) you simply flare out the rear behind the drivers (like a waveguide) and felt this flare and the entire rear panel.....again no diffraction effects.  Cheap and incredible sounding.  When you use a combo of 16 ply plywood and highly refined MDF and use Green glue in between the layers you get a very, very rigid baffle.  Aluminum might give you 5 % more........for thousands of $ more.  Use better xover parts (Clarity cap CMRs with copper foil Jupiter bypasses and use 12 gauge Jantzen wax paper copper foil Inductor on the midrange and 14 or 16 gauge on the tweet and use great wire like Neotech, Vhaudio, etc)......this is where the money should go.

Ric,

You've got me excited about upgrading my speakers' crossovers as above. A couple of questions... first, what size Jupiter copper foil caps should I use as bypasses to the Clarity CMRs? Second, where's a good source for the Jantzen wax paper copper foil inductors? I need 2.5mH & 4.7mH in the 12 gauge and 1mH and 1.5mH in the 14 gauge.

TIA!

Greg in Mississippi
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: HAL on 21 Nov 2017, 07:40 pm
Here is the GR Neo3 with the yarn installed with the BG Neo10.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=171658)
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: corndog71 on 22 Nov 2017, 03:26 pm
Those look cool.  How do they sound?  Open Baffle?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: HAL on 22 Nov 2017, 03:29 pm
Yes, still in work as the servo sub flat packs just arrived and have to be built.   With the old 3x8" servo setup, I liked them a lot.  Will see how the moded GR Neo3's do once I can get it setup with the dspMusikLCD digital crossover and triamped.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: SoCalWJS on 2 Mar 2018, 10:28 pm
These:

(http://gr-research.com/pics/616inroom7.jpg)
Danny, sorry for digging up an old thread and asking such a silly question, but..... whatever happened to these speakers?

They seem to haunt me. Just wondering if they will ever be someplace where they could be heard?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 2 Mar 2018, 10:44 pm
Danny, sorry for digging up an old thread and asking such a silly question, but..... whatever happened to these speakers?

They seem to haunt me. Just wondering if they will ever be someplace where they could be heard?

The were shipped to Panama quite some time ago.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: SoCalWJS on 2 Mar 2018, 11:32 pm
The were shipped to Panama quite some time ago.
......guess I won't get to hear them then.

Drat.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: HAL on 2 Mar 2018, 11:46 pm
Those look cool.  How do they sound?  Open Baffle?

Will be discussing the GR Neo3, BG Neo10 OB speaker in this thread.  Pictures of the prototype test baffle #2 are posted down a bit on this page:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153244.80
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Miguel Gonzalez on 3 Mar 2018, 12:18 am
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=176974)
......guess I won't get to hear them then.

Drat.

The line array are in Panama...if you stop by...let me know...an audition is possible...Miguel
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Miguel Gonzalez on 3 Mar 2018, 12:28 am
......guess I won't get to hear them then.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=176975)
Several amps and dacs to listen to which by the way I need to sell...





Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Miguel Gonzalez on 3 Mar 2018, 12:43 am
Ric,

You've got me excited about upgrading my speakers' crossovers as above. A couple of questions... first, what size Jupiter copper foil caps should I use as bypasses to the Clarity CMRs? Second, where's a good source for the Jantzen wax paper copper foil inductors? I need 2.5mH & 4.7mH in the 12 gauge and 1mH and 1.5mH in the 14 gauge.

TIA!

Greg in Mississippi

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=176976)

Future upgrade for the line array...
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Early B. on 3 Mar 2018, 01:02 am
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=176976)

Future upgrade for the line array...

Miguel -- tell us more.

What amp do you have powering those line arrays? List the other gear.
How would you describe the sound?
What speakers did the line arrays replace?
Do you have a pair of Danny's OB servo subs for bass?
What convinced you to purchase those line arrays and have them shippeed to Panama? Did you come to Texas to hear them first? 
What gear do you have for sale?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: SoCalWJS on 3 Mar 2018, 02:12 am
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=176974)
The line array are in Panama...if you stop by...let me know...an audition is possible...Miguel
I may hold you to that!


(I think the chances of that are pretty remote...... :green:)

Every now and then I like to dream about having the means to indulge in a true SOTA system and of course, I start with Speakers. I keep coming back to the Line Force Array with at least a 3x12. I loved both the Super 7 and the Mockingbird LX systems when I heard them, and I think your speakers are probably the next step up. I've heard many top end systems though the years and I think both of those are at the top end of what I've heard (for their price point). I imagine that they capture some of the detail of the larger Martin Logan (and similar) w/o their directionality issues and scale to very large music just as well as the best  I've heard.

Enjoy!
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: SoCalWJS on 3 Mar 2018, 02:21 am
Miguel -- tell us more.

What amp do you have powering those line arrays? List the other gear.
How would you describe the sound?
What speakers did the line arrays replace?
Do you have a pair of Danny's OB servo subs for bass?
What convinced you to purchase those line arrays and have them shippeed to Panama? Did you come to Texas to hear them first? 
What gear do you have for sale?
Ditto!
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Miguel Gonzalez on 3 Mar 2018, 03:58 am
Ditto!

What amp do you have powering those line arrays?

My main amplifier is the KR Audio Kronzilla VA680 Power Amplifier. single-ended tube amplifier - pure class A, zero feedback.

I left by mistake the amp on for 24 hours and the power supply has to changed...I have the part on its way to Panama...

I just bought today a first watt SIT-2 single stage, 10 watts at 8 ohms...should be in Panama soon hopefully...

I do no own any LP nor a turntable...only dac for the source in my case...

The dac I currently use is the Wadia X32 I imagine it is from the 90's...but...

https://sites.google.com/site/tvcaudio/home/wadia/wadia-x32

The wadia X32 has been modified by TVC audio from France (team of audiophile friends who work in the telecom industry), they have created their
own interface in between a logitech duet also modified and he wadia x32... with their 300 femtoseconds clocks on both side of the gear...

I am looking to replace the dac, I am even surprised that I still have this dac.

I should receive a modified Oppo Sonica and LKS 8038 from Ric Schultz in the next weeks...we shall see if the Wadia X32 will be replaced ?
Who knows ?

The preamp is The Truth Pre Amp

Of also use a regenator PurePower+ 1500

Cables are power supply Triode Labs and Custom interconnects silver wire...

I have also MMG speakers wires (Silver and another Cooper) and MMG cable interconnect cooper (for sale)

How would you describe the sound?

I am unable to describe the sound the way 6 moons does it (I need to read 10 times the article and still sometimes do not get it)

But I can tell you that this system with the Force Line Array is not fatiguing. Other systems exhaust you very quickly, this is not at all the case...

With my existing Wadia X32 dac I can only listen to 16 /44.1 format redbook CD from my computer through the Logitech Duet.

I have not yet felt the need to experiment with high res... but I will in the near future I am sure...You can literally rediscover your recording in
Redbook format...you would be surprised how much information is there when it was well recorded. The opposite being true also you can immediately know if the recording was excellent, ok or mediocre...

I listen to the same music at different places for example in my car, another system etc... and when I come back to the line arrays you perceive almost so much information that you wonder how much information is reproduced on other systems...

How could I best describe the speakers with the servo drives : it is the only component in my system since i got it that I never even thought one second to change, all the other component are at risk...that says a lot...


What speakers did the line arrays replace?

Emerald Physics Open Baffle Speaker (sold)

Clearwave Minuet R5 (Raal driver) (for sale)

Duet 7 Reference
Link : https://www.clearwavespeakers.com/product/1383849

Do you have a pair of Danny's OB servo subs for bass?
Yes with the 3 drivers facing front...

What convinced you to purchase those line arrays and have them shipped to Panama?

When I started the conversation with Danny those speakers did not exist. Danny and I took a chance going forward on a product that did not exist.
I am so glad that I insisted on the structure being in Aluminum (one inch thick) which was not obvious at that time. The excution is obviuosly o be attribued to Danny.

Why planar, line array and open baffle ? After several discussions with Danny and Ric Schultz I became convinced that it was worthwhile to try and I am so happy of the end result delivered by Danny.

Did you come to Texas to hear them first?
Not at all

I am still surprised that there is only one pair like mine so far, I know they are expensive but really what you get if you can afford it (maybe kit or DIY or a mix of the 2, maybe another material than aluminum...) audiophiles should go after it seriously...


What gear do you have for sale?
Lampizator
Aum Acoustics LDR Based Passive Preamplifier (Tortuga based)
http://aumacoustics.com/aum-acoustics-ldr-preamplifier/
Aum Acoustics Statement Quality 2A3 Tube Power Amplifier
http://aumacoustics.com/aum-acoustics-2a3-amp/
Vinnie Rossi LIO
Tubes...
Cables
cf Also Supra

I am open to any suggestion in order to improve my system...

Thanks Miguel
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: gregfisk on 3 Mar 2018, 04:16 am
Hi Miguel,

You had Danny build you a pair of speakers that a lot of people here in the States would love to have. I have one of his earlier creations the Super Vs and really enjoy them with a Lampizator Atlantic Dac/Pre amp.

Which Lampizator do you have and how much do you want for it?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Miguel Gonzalez on 3 Mar 2018, 04:25 am
Hi Miguel,

You had Danny build you a pair of speakers that a lot of people here in the States would love to have. I have one of his earlier creations the Super Vs and really enjoy them with a Lampizator Atlantic Dac/Pre amp.

Which Lampizator do you have and how much do you want for it?

Big Seven Dac
Unbalanced
With volume control
DSD up to 128 with chipless

3800 usd...
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Miguel Gonzalez on 3 Mar 2018, 04:34 am
Miguel -- tell us more.

What amp do you have powering those line arrays? List the other gear.
How would you describe the sound?
What speakers did the line arrays replace?
Do you have a pair of Danny's OB servo subs for bass?
What convinced you to purchase those line arrays and have them shippeed to Panama? Did you come to Texas to hear them first? 
What gear do you have for sale?

Just coming back to the neo 3's tweeters as the subject is about New GR Neo 3 tweeters...

The Clearwave Minuet R5 have Raal drivers, the large ones, it is one driver not a line array...but i do no miss at all the Raal ( I agree we are talking completely different configuration here)

I can hear up to 15KHZ

I have also the Maximum Supertweeters
http://www.townshendaudio.com/supertweeters/
and I have tried them on top of the line array, I do not know if it is my limitation with the 15khz but so far in my case it did not felt any improvement in the overall result.

Maybe I should try again with another amplifer...


Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: studley on 3 Mar 2018, 11:00 am
At one point Danny was going to see if he could find a CNC shop that would make the frames at a reasonable price.  Guess that didn't pan out ?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Miguel Gonzalez on 3 Mar 2018, 01:41 pm
At one point Danny was going to see if he could find a CNC shop that would make the frames at a reasonable price.  Guess that didn't pan out ?

One of the issues with those open baffle aluminum panel that came up during the process of building them was to find a CNC shop that could CNC cut a piece that long...
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Stimpy on 3 Mar 2018, 02:24 pm
One of the issues with those open baffle aluminum panel that came up during the process of building them was to find a CNC shop that could CNC cut a piece that long...

Well, that's a shame!  It would have been nice if baffle panels could have been made using a less expensive method?  Maybe even cutting baffles from flat stainless steel.  Then you could use a front and rear baffle, with Baltic Birch plywood (and the like) sandwiched in between.  Similar to how Clearaudio builds their top turntables.  I suppose you could use one stainless steel baffle sandwiched between front and rear wood baffles too.  If you wanted the wood look? 

Regardless, thanks for sharing Miguel.  An awesome system.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 3 Mar 2018, 04:27 pm
One of the issues with those open baffle aluminum panel that came up during the process of building them was to find a CNC shop that could CNC cut a piece that long...

So exactly how long is the baffle panel?  I know I'm pretty busy these days and not around AC as much, but I might know a guy...

Also, are they finished in paint or is that a gloss finish annodizing?  Getting them cut might be doable off the top of my head, but I'm not sure I know anyone with an anno setup that could take a piece that big.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Miguel Gonzalez on 3 Mar 2018, 06:54 pm
So exactly how long is the baffle panel?  I know I'm pretty busy these days and not around AC as much, but I might know a guy...

Also, are they finished in paint or is that a gloss finish annodizing?  Getting them cut might be doable off the top of my head, but I'm not sure I know anyone with an anno setup that could take a piece that big.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=176994)

The baffle was painted...

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=176995)

Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Uzeb on 3 Mar 2018, 09:41 pm
1/2" bamboo plywood I think would work for baffles, bamboo is considered stronger than steel. I own a cabinet shop and use 3/4' bamboo plywood a lot, it has very little bend or flex over 8 feet. As little or less than a 8 foot piece of 1/2" aluminum. Another aspect of bamboo is that it has vibration damping properties. 1/2" Bamboo Ply is about $170.00 to $200.00 for a 4 x8 sheet and machines pretty much like wood but needs a heavy CNC router to process.

I have an industrial CNC machine in my shop and could easily machine the baffles if I had the specs. I have included a picture of a speaker that I made out of 3/4 bamboo ply to fit Accuton drivers
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177004)
 
I would be keen to be involved if there is some interest from others.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: emailtim on 4 Mar 2018, 06:02 am
Here is the GR Neo3 with the yarn installed with the BG Neo10.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=171658)

What does the yarn do to the tweeter (some type of attenuation) ?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: srb on 4 Mar 2018, 06:37 am
What does the yarn do to the tweeter (some type of attenuation) ?

Post #9 describes the installation and results of the yarn used in place of the factory installed felt that was used in the BG PDR version.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=152039.msg1626035#msg1626035
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: emailtim on 4 Mar 2018, 07:07 am
Post #9 describes the installation and results of the yarn used in place of the factory installed felt that was used in the BG PDR version.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=152039.msg1626035#msg1626035

Thanks for the link.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 4 Mar 2018, 02:29 pm
1/2" bamboo plywood I think would work for baffles, bamboo is considered stronger than steel. I own a cabinet shop and use 3/4' bamboo plywood a lot, it has very little bend or flex over 8 feet. As little or less than a 8 foot piece of 1/2" aluminum. Another aspect of bamboo is that it has vibration damping properties. 1/2" Bamboo Ply is about $170.00 to $200.00 for a 4 x8 sheet and machines pretty much like wood but needs a heavy CNC router to process.

I have an industrial CNC machine in my shop and could easily machine the baffles if I had the specs. I have included a picture of a speaker that I made out of 3/4 bamboo ply to fit Accuton drivers
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177004)
 
I would be keen to be involved if there is some interest from others.

PM me or give me a call. Maybe we can make something happen with these.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: HT cOz on 6 Mar 2018, 02:52 pm
Proper bamboo baffles would be amazing!!!
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: madsry on 18 May 2018, 10:53 pm
Did the bamboo idea pan out? Or the metal/ply/metal?

Also, I may have a resource for the aluminum CNC work if there was still sufficient interest...
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Papucho on 4 Jun 2018, 06:59 pm
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=176994)

The baffle was painted...

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=176995)

Hello from Panama

I like your system
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Beardy on 7 Jun 2018, 04:22 pm
laser cut steel would be low cost - much lower than milling.
stiffer than aluminium and readily powder coated.  It would push resonances way up.
Just bolt the drivers in and don't tap the holes.
If you did it in 1/4" inch steel it would be pigging heavy, so you'd want a stable base!
if you want to damp the structure then you could similarly cut a matching sheet of mass loaded rubber or No Rez or similar to glue to the back.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Folsom on 7 Jun 2018, 06:51 pm
How do the Neo's compare to domes for dynamic higher SPL output?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 8 Jun 2018, 01:04 am
How do the Neo's compare to domes for dynamic higher SPL output?

I have not reached a limit, so it is hard to say. And power handling with the Neo's crossed over properly is quite high.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: gregfisk on 8 Jun 2018, 08:06 am
Danny, how much would it cost for all of the parts including crossovers to build the Mockingbird line arrays?

I'm sure you could use counter top material rather than aluminum and save a ton of money.  Of course the legs would have to be made out of something else. Then it would still be thin enough not to cause the problems you were talking about with a thicker material.

I'm still dreaming about these in my room one day.

Hey, a guy can dream can't he?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 8 Jun 2018, 02:35 pm
Danny, how much would it cost for all of the parts including crossovers to build the Mockingbird line arrays?

I'm sure you could use counter top material rather than aluminum and save a ton of money.  Of course the legs would have to be made out of something else. Then it would still be thin enough not to cause the problems you were talking about with a thicker material.

I'm still dreaming about these in my room one day.

Hey, a guy can dream can't he?

Those speakers had wood baffles.

To make them again would require that I have more of the woofers made.

http://mockingbirddistribution.com/mockingbird-audio-lsx-speaker-system/
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Tyson on 8 Jun 2018, 03:01 pm
The Super 7s MMTMM array seems like a more realistic DIY option, no?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: WC on 8 Jun 2018, 05:06 pm
The Super 7s MMTMM array seems like a more realistic DIY option, no?

Well all the drivers are still in production. It is just a matter of constructing a front baffle with the tweeter waveguide. Less expensive also.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: HAL on 8 Jun 2018, 06:56 pm
Just to clarify, are you interested in the Mockingbird LS-X with the Neo8's tweeters and cone woofers line array or the Serenity Neo3/Neo10 style line array?   

The Serenity Super-7's use the Neo3/Neo10 drivers like the Serenity line array.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 8 Jun 2018, 08:25 pm
The Super 7s MMTMM array seems like a more realistic DIY option, no?

I measured and tested Jay's latest baffles for them a few weeks ago. It is amazing how much effect the baffle can have on them.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 8 Jun 2018, 08:50 pm
I'm going to follow up that last post with a Super-7 baffle update.

Here are the old baffles.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/baffles1.jpg)

The wave guide for the tweeter had to jot out from the baffle to create a smooth tweeter response. The Neo 10's were also flush mounted from the front.

The new baffles allowed all the drivers to be rear mounted and was to do away with the wave guide for the tweeter sticking out there.

See new baffle pics:

(http://gr-research.com/pics/front1.jpg)

(http://gr-research.com/pics/tweeterfit.jpg)

The Neo 10's loved the new mounting. The response was un-effected by the rear mounting and was smooth as glass.

The tweeters though.... Agh.

So I blocked off the Neo 10 holes with card board and the lower ones with a block of Stryofoam.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/super-7%20baffle.jpg)

Now check this out.

The green line is the tweeter response with the cardboard over the upper Neo 10 holes and the Styrofoam over the lower ones. Looks great huh!

The purple line is with all four drivers blocked off with card board.

And the red line is with the Neo 10's mounted. Dang it! Picky little drivers...

(http://gr-research.com/pics/with%20and%20without%20Neo%2010's%20covered%20plus%20styrofoam%20over%20the%20lower%20drivers.jpg)

The tweeters response does not like the in and out reflections of the Neo 10's inset from the rear mounting.

We could front mount the Neo 10's, but then they won't be aligned front to back. It will change the driver offset. I don't like that idea. Or we can go back to the more complex original baffle design. Or something.... I am still thinking on that one.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 8 Jun 2018, 08:59 pm
Another update...

Jay sent me these baffles.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/2way-1.jpg)

Then I modified the tweeter wave guide.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/modified.jpg)

And I played with the short side wing a bit.

The response looks excellent.

Here are the measured responses with a second order slope.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/Second%20order%20crossover%20response.jpg)

And for the first time I was able to use a first order slope with these drivers. I have never been able to do that before.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/First%20order%20crossover%20on%20Neo%2010.jpg)

So lots of promise on this one.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: gregfisk on 8 Jun 2018, 09:07 pm
Those speakers had wood baffles.

To make them again would require that I have more of the woofers made.

http://mockingbirddistribution.com/mockingbird-audio-lsx-speaker-system/

Okay, I was thinking about the aluminum speakers you made for another company I guess. Those are so cool looking and I know the people who heard them were blown away. Sorry for the OT post.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: HAL on 8 Jun 2018, 09:14 pm
Another update...

Jay sent me these baffles.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/2way-1.jpg)

Then I modified the tweeter wave guide.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/modified.jpg)

And I played with the short side wing a bit.

The response looks excellent.

Here are the measured responses with a second order slope.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/Second%20order%20crossover%20response.jpg)

And for the first time I was able to use a first order slope with these drivers. I have never been able to do that before.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/First%20order%20crossover%20on%20Neo%2010.jpg)

So lots of promise on this one.

Looks great with the updated waveguide!
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: gab on 8 Jun 2018, 09:22 pm
And compared to the Serenity version MUCH more affordable! Nice work Danny/Jay  :thumb:

gab
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 8 Jun 2018, 09:41 pm
Okay, I was thinking about the aluminum speakers you made for another company I guess. Those are so cool looking and I know the people who heard them were blown away. Sorry for the OT post.

That was a Serenity product, and yes it was outstanding.

Aluminum was the best material for the job. It was just pricey. We are still looking into lower cost possibilities of reproducing that design.

 
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 8 Jun 2018, 09:43 pm
this new   baffle is being cut  any day
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=181060)

Not ready to give up onthe  S7 baffles yet, too much time/effort.....

jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: SoCalWJS on 9 Jun 2018, 01:09 am
this new   baffle is being cut  any day
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=181060)

Not ready to give up onthe  S7 baffles yet, too much time/effort.....

jay
Glad to hear it and staying tuned!
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: SoCalWJS on 9 Jun 2018, 01:12 am
Another update...

Jay sent me these baffles.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/2way-1.jpg)

Then I modified the tweeter wave guide.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/modified.jpg)

And I played with the short side wing a bit.

The response looks excellent.

Here are the measured responses with a second order slope.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/Second%20order%20crossover%20response.jpg)

And for the first time I was able to use a first order slope with these drivers. I have never been able to do that before.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/First%20order%20crossover%20on%20Neo%2010.jpg)

So lots of promise on this one.
I am looking forward to seeing what you have to say about first order crossovers. They have some interesting advantages vs potential issues. Good luck!
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Jun 2018, 01:17 am
I am looking forward to seeing what you have to say about first order crossovers. They have some interesting advantages vs potential issues. Good luck!

Yeah, definitely advantages and disadvantages. 
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: gregfisk on 9 Jun 2018, 05:26 am
That was a Serenity product, and yes it was outstanding.

Aluminum was the best material for the job. It was just pricey. We are still looking into lower cost possibilities of reproducing that design.

Do you have an idea of driver cost and crossover parts cost? I don't recall what drivers were in that design.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 9 Jun 2018, 06:02 am
Do you have an idea of driver cost and crossover parts cost? I don't recall what drivers were in that design.

Hey Greg
16 Heo 3's per  speaker /  6 Neo 10's per speaker IIRC.     

jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: gregfisk on 9 Jun 2018, 08:46 am
Hey Greg
16 Heo 3's per  speaker /  6 Neo 10's per speaker IIRC.     

jay

Thanks Jay, there's some cost there for sure but man I bet they sound good!
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 9 Jun 2018, 04:10 pm
Thanks Jay, there's some cost there for sure but man I bet they sound good!

Yup,  don heard them  when he was  down   to see danny, he  was  pretty dam impressed to say  the least.  In fact,  don't  know  of anyone who heard them that  wasn't !
2 way networks so   parts  count is not  likely too high but for a pair of these, I'd be going  "all in"  with  the parts so there'd  be  some expense there too

I've looked at some composites that I think may work ( would requier some testing) but they'd still end up  pretty spendy

But, the end result.....  :beer:

jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: mlundy57 on 9 Jun 2018, 04:41 pm
Yup,  don heard them  when he was  down   to see danny, he  was  pretty dam impressed to say  the least.  In fact,  don't  know  of anyone who heard them that  wasn't !
2 way networks so   parts  count is not  likely too high but for a pair of these, I'd be going  "all in"  with  the parts so there'd  be  some expense there too

I've looked at some composites that I think may work ( would requier some testing) but they'd still end up  pretty spendy

But, the end result.....  :beer:

jay

I would have to agree with Don's assessments as well as Scott's and anybody else that has heard them. At the time I heard them, Danny was calling them the Six Sixteens due to the driver count. Glorious sound for sure but remember, the complete system has 4 towers: the two 6/16s and a pair of triple 12 OB H-Frames. That puts the drivers and A370 amps north of $7,600. That would put a DIY build probably at least $10k.  Now go top tier on the crossover components and finish ...

That's not to say it wouldn't be a massive bargain and worth every cent, I'd just have to save up for 4 or 5 years to afford it. Then come up with a room large enough to put them in. I only have two rooms big enough in my house, the living room and master bedroom. Somehow I don't think either will fly with my wife  :(

Mike
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Tyson on 9 Jun 2018, 07:30 pm
A line array of Neo10's is the ONLY thing that would give me any kind of envy re: speaker performance at this point.  I "might" consider making one or buying one if I had the space, but there is absolutely no way to shoehorn them into my current living room.  The Super 7's already completely dominate that space :P
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Folsom on 9 Jun 2018, 08:34 pm
What is the minimal amount of Neo8's to achieve good SPL? Say down to 300hz?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Jun 2018, 10:01 pm
What is the minimal amount of Neo8's to achieve good SPL? Say down to 300hz?

Neo 8's simply can't play down that low. That would really be a stretch even for a long line of them.

I crossed 9 of them in the LS-9 where they were naturally rolling off and that was at 850Hz.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: S Clark on 9 Jun 2018, 10:03 pm
If you want a Neo driver to reach down to 300 Hz, I suspect you need the Neo 10.  On my LS9's the Neo8's cross around 900Hz handing off to an array of 6.5" midwoofers. 

Danny beat me to it.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 9 Jun 2018, 10:09 pm
Yeah, a line of Neo 10's will get you to a -3db just below 200Hz.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Folsom on 9 Jun 2018, 10:32 pm
Ah, ok.

The Piega planar midrange is like the Neo's, but plays farther. I thought the Neo's went farther.

*** Looks like the 10 fills that kind of requirement.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Tyson on 10 Jun 2018, 12:08 am
Sorry all, I mis-spoke in my earlier post - I did indeed mean the Neo10, not the Neo8.  IMO the Neo10 is much better sounding than the Neo8, and is probably the best pure-midrange driver I've ever heard.  And the Neo3 tweeter is right there with it, quality wise. 
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: S Clark on 10 Jun 2018, 02:31 am
Not entirely sure I'd agree with "much better" assessment.  I suspect they'd be hard to identify from each other over most of their overlapping range.  But, as you mentioned, the 10 is a true mid, and the 8 can handle most/all of the tweeter range as well. 
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: nerdorama on 23 Jun 2018, 07:39 pm
Another update...

Jay sent me these baffles.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/2way-1.jpg)

Then I modified the tweeter wave guide.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/modified.jpg)

And I played with the short side wing a bit.

The response looks excellent.


Hello all,
I'm new to this forum and have been reading about the Wedgie speakers when I found this thread.  The Wedgie looks like a great project but this one with the Neo10's seems even more interesting to me.  Is this something that will be documented, or made into a kit, so others can pursue it?  I've also tried to find where the Wedgie flat packs might be available but haven't found it yet.
Thanks so much,
John
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 24 Jun 2018, 01:16 pm
We will offer it as a kit.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: rockdrummer on 25 Jun 2018, 03:02 am
I looked and didn't see it, and also don't know if it's something one can figure out on their own. What's the sensitivity of something like this upcoming kit? The wedgie is between 93 and 94. Would this be higher or lower?
Ben
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: WC on 25 Jun 2018, 03:21 am
You could put a Neo3 and Neo10 together like shown, but will it sound the same or as good? Probably not. You most likely would need to get the waveguide right to get it to sound it's best. Danny will also put together a crossover that maximizes the performance. Most likely the kit will include a flat pack or front baffle of the top speaker since the waveguide is a critical piece.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 25 Jun 2018, 04:56 am
Hello all,
I'm new to this forum and have been reading about the Wedgie speakers when I found this thread.  The Wedgie looks like a great project but this one with the Neo10's seems even more interesting to me.  Is this something that will be documented, or made into a kit, so others can pursue it?  I've also tried to find where the Wedgie flat packs might be available but haven't found it yet.
Thanks so much,
John

The wedgies will be available  soon.... I know, they are way over due   :(.   We've been migrating to a new   shop(s) and it's taking  longer  than expected,  I apologize to  you guys  who have been waiting patiently,   we're  working on it

I looked and didn't see it, and also don't know if it's something one can figure out on their own. What's the sensitivity of something like this upcoming kit? The wedgie is between 93 and 94. Would this be higher or lower?
Ben

Ben,  not  100% sure but I'd guess they  will be  a little shy of the    93/94   mark... not sure  a single  Neo 10    will  make it up  that  high

You could put a Neo3 and Neo10 together like shown, but will it sound the same or as good? Probably not. You most likely would need to get the waveguide right to get it to sound it's best. Danny will also put together a crossover that maximizes the performance. Most likely the kit will include a flat pack or front baffle of the top speaker since the waveguide is a critical piece.

Yeah, and there is a lot of R&d that goes into  each of these, they are almost  all different.  the Neo is   sensitive to everything, baffle  width,   wave guide depth,     wave guide  flare (s),  wing shape  etc  etc.... then you  combine it all and it  gets  tricky.   they all have to be modeled, programmed and   prototyped, it's time  consuming.      Hoping the next  one  will be the cat's  meow"   at least for this   speaker.
Also note, there will be an active version of these available from HAL  (Hollis Audio Lavs)   :thumb:


jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 25 Jun 2018, 04:05 pm
I looked and didn't see it, and also don't know if it's something one can figure out on their own. What's the sensitivity of something like this upcoming kit? The wedgie is between 93 and 94. Would this be higher or lower?
Ben

I posted the measured response on the previous page: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=152039.msg1690550#msg1690550
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: rockdrummer on 25 Jun 2018, 04:49 pm
Ah, thanks for the responses. I don't know much about those charts. I see what you measured. (I knew there was probably a way an informed person would know it) :duh:
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 25 Jun 2018, 06:06 pm
Ah, thanks for the responses. I don't know much about those charts. I see what you measured. (I knew there was probably a way an informed person would know it) :duh:

Draw a line through the summed response (red line) that averages the level. That is the averaged sensitivity.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: studiotech on 28 Jun 2018, 03:17 am
Sorry all, I mis-spoke in my earlier post - I did indeed mean the Neo10, not the Neo8.  IMO the Neo10 is much better sounding than the Neo8, and is probably the best pure-midrange driver I've ever heard.  And the Neo3 tweeter is right there with it, quality wise.

If you never tried the Neo8-S, I'd urge you to try them out.  In my opinion, they sound as good in my sealed, three way studio monitors as the Neo10s in my main system open baffles.  They play an octave lower AND cleaner than  the original  Neo8.

Greg
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 28 Jun 2018, 01:42 pm
If you never tried the Neo8-S, I'd urge you to try them out.  In my opinion, they sound as good in my sealed, three way studio monitors as the Neo10s in my main system open baffles.  They play an octave lower AND cleaner than  the original  Neo8.

Greg

It's a good driver. It just doesn't play quite low enough to catch all of the mid-range. The heart of the mid-range is 300 to 500Hz, so I like to cross at least 100Hz below that so as not to split the vocal region into dissimilar drivers are cause a phase shift in that area. The Neo 10 will just make it. 
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: simon wagstaff on 1 Jul 2018, 10:06 pm
Looking forward to hearing more.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: jjnvdm on 7 Jul 2018, 10:10 pm
PM me or give me a call. Maybe we can make something happen with these.

Did anything come out of this? Is bamboo a viable material for the baffle?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 7 Jul 2018, 10:50 pm
Did anything come out of this? Is bamboo a viable material for the baffle?

I'm actually  working on this... got side tracked  but had  another person ask  again  yesterday and  got my interest  going  again.  Not looking at  bamboo ,  something  else
I have a  good model  / dxf done up  now,  just  waiting on  a few things.

jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 10 Jul 2018, 10:33 pm

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182335)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182337)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182336)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182340)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182338)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182339)

Considering getting  a prototype done  if there is  interest

jay

Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: MHL on 10 Jul 2018, 10:50 pm
What is the lower frequency limit of the panels?  Wondering what the approx. frequency would be crossing over to the servo woofer stack.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: mlundy57 on 10 Jul 2018, 11:39 pm
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182335)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182337)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182336)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182340)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182338)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182339)

Considering getting  a prototype done  if there is  interest

jay

I’m interested, might have to sell an organ or two (or some of my audio gear) to afford the drivers but ...
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 10 Jul 2018, 11:45 pm
What is the lower frequency limit of the panels?  Wondering what the approx. frequency would be crossing over to the servo woofer stack.

They crossed to the servo subs in the 180Hz range.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: MHL on 11 Jul 2018, 01:44 am
Thanks Danny.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 11 Jul 2018, 04:55 am
I’m interested, might have to sell an organ or two (or some of my audio gear) to afford the drivers but ...

I hear you   ! 
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Syrah on 11 Jul 2018, 07:54 pm
I'm coming late to this party, but it is a good one!

In terms of materials, I've made DIY Symposium shelves before which are CLD.  Any logic in making these out of an aluminum/HDF (ie harboard)/aluminum sandwich?  It might make it cheaper than straight aluminum and would it not make for a less reasonant frame?  I appreciate it would be 3 times the CNC work, but I thought programming the CNC machine was the really big cost?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: gab on 28 Jul 2018, 06:03 pm
Another update...

Jay sent me these baffles.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/2way-1.jpg)

Then I modified the tweeter wave guide.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/modified.jpg)

And I played with the short side wing a bit.

The response looks excellent.

Here are the measured responses with a second order slope.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/Second%20order%20crossover%20response.jpg)

And for the first time I was able to use a first order slope with these drivers. I have never been able to do that before.

(http://gr-research.com/pics/First%20order%20crossover%20on%20Neo%2010.jpg)

So lots of promise on this one.

Danny / Jay - when will this kit be available and do you have pricing for it (including the baffle) figured out yet? Will it be called the Super-4? Thanks

gab
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: kramertc on 29 Jul 2018, 04:35 pm
Danny,
Are these a drop in replacement for the N2X kit?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 30 Jul 2018, 01:06 am
Danny / Jay - when will this kit be available and do you have pricing for it (including the baffle) figured out yet? Will it be called the Super-4? Thanks

gab

Gab
They shouldnt be too much  longer,  the desing is finalized,  I'm  just  waiting on   the first   smallish run to be cut....
Will determine flat pack costs after  the  run is cut.......
Looks  like  we're getting  some  wedgies done  at the  same time so that  will be good  news for those  guys  that  have been waiting  patiently 

jay

jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 30 Jul 2018, 03:04 pm
Danny,
Are these a drop in replacement for the N2X kit?

If the Yarn is added to the outside rows, and if a rear cup is added then these are a drop in replacement for the tweeters used in the N2X kit.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: WC on 7 Aug 2018, 10:09 pm
Danny,

Just curious why this one you are working on with HAL only has a single Neo 10 with the Neo3 tweeter. The Super 7 uses 4 Neo10s per speaker. Could 2 Neo10s in a MTM laid horizontally like the Super7 with a Neo3  work? That would drop the height of the Neo3 some to put 37 or 38 inches off the ground. Have you looked at this configuration before?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 7 Aug 2018, 10:27 pm
If you  are going to stand  mount, then you  can have the tweeter  at any height you want  pretty much.... that being said, the Neo3 in a  wave guide works  exceptionally well at  42+/-.... it raises the sound stage to a much more relelistic level.
Keeping the baffle narrow helps imaging and having the  single  Neo10 allows it  to also be in a  wave guide.   It's so flat in  that  guide  :beer"

jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 7 Aug 2018, 11:13 pm
Danny,

Just curious why this one you are working on with HAL only has a single Neo 10 with the Neo3 tweeter. The Super 7 uses 4 Neo10s per speaker. Could 2 Neo10s in a MTM laid horizontally like the Super7 with a Neo3  work? That would drop the height of the Neo3 some to put 37 or 38 inches off the ground. Have you looked at this configuration before?

If you use two Neo 10's on their side then you either have to run them in parallel or in series. So you'd have a DCR of 3.5 ohms or 14 ohms. So it wouldn't match well with the tweeter. Also it means a wide baffle size like the Super-7. The advantage of the single Neo 10 is the 7 ohm impedance and narrow baffle. That really sets them apart in regards to imaging and sound stage.

We are also working on a base for that model to sit on that is three of the M-165/16's all in parallel. That should match well in output and impedance plus be just the right height.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: WC on 8 Aug 2018, 05:43 pm
So how does the imaging suffer with the Neo10 and Neo3 on a narrow baffle sitting on top of a dual H-frame of approximately 15” wide?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 8 Aug 2018, 06:11 pm
So how does the imaging suffer with the Neo10 and Neo3 on a narrow baffle sitting on top of a dual H-frame of approximately 15” wide?

No the imaging is better with the near zero surface reflections of the narrow baffle.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: WC on 8 Aug 2018, 07:13 pm
I guess I wasn’t clear in my question. I realize a narrow baffle typically images better. If you set the Neo3 and Neo10 on a narrow baffle over the dual H-frame instead of over woofers like the M165/16’s on a narrower baffle, would the imaging suffer some due to the width of the H-frame underneath or would the dual 12” woofers make up for it.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 8 Aug 2018, 07:38 pm
I guess I wasn’t clear in my question. I realize a narrow baffle typically images better. If you set the Neo3 and Neo10 on a narrow baffle over the dual H-frame instead of over woofers like the M165/16’s on a narrower baffle, would the imaging suffer some due to the width of the H-frame underneath or would the dual 12” woofers make up for it.

Oh I get what you're asking now. No, the Dual 12's below will have little effect on it. It will still be really good.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 8 Aug 2018, 08:08 pm
If I understand correctly the Super 7 has a wider baffle than some other GR speakers.  So if I want better imaging, are there flat packs available for GR models with a narrower baffle?

I've been aware of the Super V and it's great reputation for some time, but don't know much about other GR Research speakers and what's available.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 8 Aug 2018, 08:45 pm
If I understand correctly the Super 7 has a wider baffle than some other GR speakers.  So if I want better imaging, are there flat packs available for GR models with a narrower baffle?

I've been aware of the Super V and it's great reputation for some time, but don't know much about other GR Research speakers and what's available.

We will be re-releasing the Wedgie as a kit soon. We just revisited the baffle design with a thicker front baffle and our new GR Neo tweeter. It is the ultimate in small baffles.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=155092.msg1679963#msg1679963

The original build and design thread: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=126112.0

Also don't overlook my favorites. The NX-Otica and NX-Treme. These speakers are super transparent.

Original design thread: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=138009.0

Testing complete and shipping kits: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=141654.0

A build thread: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=143221.0

NX-Treme testing: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=145270.0

Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 8 Aug 2018, 08:57 pm
If I understand correctly the Super 7 has a wider baffle than some other GR speakers.  So if I want better imaging, are there flat packs available for GR models with a narrower baffle?

I've been aware of the Super V and it's great reputation for some time, but don't know much about other GR Research speakers and what's available.

We'll soon have  some  stock on the   new  /  revised  Wedgie design, think   info on it can be  found  earlier in this  thread.   Will go have a  look  and post  a  link  danny beat me to it   :thumb:

Will also have some limited stock (first run) on the  single Neo10/Neo3 monitors see in this thread.  Rich (HAL) will also have  an active version of these..

there is also the  NX series kits ,  info  here https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153434.msg1640026#msg1640026
If you  are interested in   these, contact me   about  delivery times.  We've got some parts  in stock,  some  needs to be  cut and we  can do that,   I've just been busy on other  stuff and haven't  done  any  dditonal runs on these.

We've also got the   H-frame flat packs which can be found here
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=139480.0

super 7  packs  are  coming   too
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=159096.0

jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 8 Aug 2018, 09:57 pm
Thanks for the info.  I did a quick scan through some of the links, those all look fantastic, great work!  Lots of reading to do. 
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 8 Aug 2018, 10:01 pm
Thanks for the info.  I did a quick scan through some of the links, those all look fantastic, great work!  Lots of reading to do.

Those models sound fantastic.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 8 Aug 2018, 10:13 pm
They all sound fantastic but there are differences obviously.  Would need to get some info on that first, maybe through PM.  Initial thoughts are start with H-frame flat packs to make OB servo subs and use with current speakers.  If that build goes smooth then maybe add Wedgie or NX-Otica.  Or better to just go with Super 7?

Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 8 Aug 2018, 10:37 pm
They all sound fantastic but there are differences obviously.  Would need to get some info on that first, maybe through PM.  Initial thoughts are start with H-frame flat packs to make OB servo subs and use with current speakers.  If that build goes smooth then maybe add Wedgie or NX-Otica.  Or better to just go with Super 7?

Give me a call and let's chat about them all. That would be faster and easier.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 8 Aug 2018, 10:45 pm
Thanks, I'll call Friday.
Jeff
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 13 Aug 2018, 02:27 pm
 Jay, what's the best way to connect the Direct Servo Subwoofer Amps (A370PEQ), high level inputs or RCA inputs?

Jeff
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 13 Aug 2018, 03:43 pm
Jay, what's the best way to connect the Direct Servo Subwoofer Amps (A370PEQ), high level inputs or RCA inputs?

Jeff

Typically it's recommended to use the   line level inputs although some  are having good sucess with the high level inputs as well. 
You  need to be careful using the high level inputs with some fully  balanced class d amplifiers,

jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 13 Aug 2018, 03:56 pm
Thanks Jay.  I'm pondering the thought of trying a couple of H frame duals to use with my existing speakers.  In my setup it would be more convenient to to run speaker wire from my Mivera SE amp to the subwoofer amps.  Very short run.  Although I could get some 15 foot RCA cables and connect the line level inputs on the sub amps to my preamp. 

And I've read using the high level connection method preservers the character of the amp driving your main speakers into the subs.  That may be faulty info and / or doesn't apply to servo subs, i don't know.

Jeff
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 13 Aug 2018, 04:37 pm
That will work  .... but,  the module in the  Mivera amp is a  fully balanced class  D design.  Run the  neg  high level input of the sub amp  back to chassis ground

There's a  thread regarding this  in  Danny's circle somewhere...  will try  and  find it and post  link

jay

jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: mlundy57 on 13 Aug 2018, 04:38 pm
Another issue is wether you use an inline filter to roll off low frequencies to the midrange drivers. If you use this filter, which goes between the preamp and power amp, the midrange drivers can play louder and cleaner since they don’t have to deal with low frequency energy. However, this also means anything else connected to the power amp’s speaker binding posts will not get the low frequency signals, like subwoofers using high level connections.

So if you are going to use an inline filter for the midrange, you have to use line level on the subs from the preamp or whatever you are using as a master volume conrol.

Mike
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: mlundy57 on 13 Aug 2018, 04:43 pm
That will work  .... but,  the module in the  Mivera amp is a  fully balanced class  D design.  Run the  neg  high level input of the sub amp  back to chassis ground

There's a  thread regarding this  in  Danny's circle somewhere...  will try  and  find it and post  link

jay

jay

Or, as I understand it, any fully balanced amp. My PS Audio Stellar amp, which is also based in the IcePower amp, has this same issue.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: mikeeastman on 13 Aug 2018, 04:48 pm
I have the Mivera amp and the bottom end of my Super7s uses the Direct Servo Subwoofer Amps (A370PEQ) and Danny told my the line level is the best to use in that case. Right now I split the signal in my pre with high pass caps on the out to my mains and send the balanced signal thought a Jensen Iso Max to convert to RCA to send to the subs. This is what Mike at Mivera recommended.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 13 Aug 2018, 04:49 pm
Here's that link
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156711.msg1677051#msg1677051

MikeE,  yeah, that's what I'd recommend as well.  I've been  meaning to grab  a pair of the  Isolation transformers too,  would  like to  give them a try.

MikeL,   yes, same  issue but  different modules.  both made by B&O but very different  sounding.

jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: mlundy57 on 13 Aug 2018, 05:08 pm
Here's that link
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156711.msg1677051#msg1677051

MikeE,  yeah, that's what I'd recommend as well.  I've been  meaning to grab  a pair of the  Isolation transformers too,  would  like to  give them a try.

MikeL,   yes, same  issue but  different modules.  both made by B&O but very different  sounding.

jay

Jay,

It doesn't surprise me they sound different. I don't know how Mivera uses the module but PS Audio does some major reworking. It would be interesting to listen to the two amps side by side.

In my case, my Stellar preamp has both balanced and single ended outputs so I can run the balanced output through a balanced filter (needs 2 caps per channel) then into the balanced inputs on the power amp and the single ended outputs directly to the A370 plate amp.

Mike
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 13 Aug 2018, 08:11 pm
Yes, I remember Mike from Mivera posting in the Mivera forums a description and link to the Jensen Iso Max transformers.  With this added info I'd follow the method Mike Eastman is using.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 13 Aug 2018, 08:36 pm
Jay,

It doesn't surprise me they sound different. I don't know how Mivera uses the module but PS Audio does some major reworking. It would be interesting to listen to the two amps side by side.

In my case, my Stellar preamp has both balanced and single ended outputs so I can run the balanced output through a balanced filter (needs 2 caps per channel) then into the balanced inputs on the power amp and the single ended outputs directly to the A370 plate amp.

Mike

The  Steller uses the  old  (many yers I think) AS/700  module, totally different  amps (unless I've missed PS Audio releasing something  new based on the new  technology) .....

jay

jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: mlundy57 on 13 Aug 2018, 08:40 pm
Jay,

They use the 1200 then rework parts of it to their specs

Mike
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 13 Aug 2018, 08:48 pm
I haven't seen that one, will have to go have a  look  !

jay

their Steller  amp use the  old  ICP AS 700 Mike,  I see nothing  about  them using the new  1200's
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: mlundy57 on 13 Aug 2018, 09:32 pm
Jay,

I thought I saw in an Ask Paul segment they were using the AS1200. I just called PS Audio and found out I was wrong. In the Stellar M700 mononlocks they use the AS700 module but in my S300 stereo amp they use the AS300 module. So that is probably going to be quite a bit different than the Mivera amp.

Mike
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 14 Aug 2018, 03:39 am
Jay,

I thought I saw in an Ask Paul segment they were using the AS1200. I just called PS Audio and found out I was wrong. In the Stellar M700 mononlocks they use the AS700 module but in my S300 stereo amp they use the AS300 module. So that is probably going to be quite a bit different than the Mivera amp.

Mike

Yeah,     figured there was  a  bit a of  "disconnect"  there... no worries.
You  do need to hear one of the new  amps,   different   animals all together, IMHO, all  good and I  think there  a  lot   who'd agreee..... I've seen some pretty  "high end"  amps  swapped out  for these..  No going back to  anything  at this point    !

jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 14 Aug 2018, 03:47 am
I agree completely
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 4 Oct 2018, 11:27 pm
Here's the first set of finished  cabs for the  new  Neo3/Neo10 OB's.  We did these up for  HAL (Rich in  Aegean Blue).... he'll  have them  at  CAF 2018 so  you'll be able to stop by and  have a  listen/look.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=185162)

jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: HAL on 4 Oct 2018, 11:31 pm
Jay,
Made my neck hurt! LOL

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=185163)
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 4 Oct 2018, 11:40 pm
yeah, funny.... it was upright  everytime I viewed it locally, then when I up'd it  here it  rotated.  resaved the original  image in PS , updated in  my gallery  ...... it's fine  now  :beer:

jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: ebag4 on 5 Oct 2018, 12:24 am
Very nice Jay!  Are those holes in the wing for the speaker post?  Neat idea!

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 5 Oct 2018, 01:15 am
Very nice Jay!  Are those holes in the wing for the speaker post?  Neat idea!

Best,
Ed

Yeah, did  it specifically for  Rich's  active version, had planned to  just  keep    the passive GR version   as a solid wing .  figured most  would  want to just  add  the tube connectors to  a cross over  board.

jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 5 Oct 2018, 01:16 am
That looks like such a high quality finish job.  Beautiful, great work Jay!
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: mlundy57 on 5 Oct 2018, 01:40 am
Jay,

Does this mean you have flatpacks available for this design now?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 5 Oct 2018, 01:54 am
That looks like such a high quality finish job.  Beautiful, great work Jay!

Thanks  ,  ourr painter always comes through  for  us.

Mike, yeah, we  have a  few in stock for  both  the  passive  GR version and a few for the  active  HAL version.  One of the gR pairs has your name on it  and I  should have a few  pairs of the   revised Wedgies  in stock  next  week..... again, a pair  has  your  name  on it.
both version  can  now  be  easily cut if  demand is there,  I  just  did  a small run of each   to get things  started.

We also  sent  a hopefully  final prototype of the  S7 baffle to Danny   ,  hoping he'll have it  real soon.

jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: corndog71 on 5 Oct 2018, 04:09 pm
We also  sent  a hopefully  final prototype of the  S7 baffle to Danny   ,  hoping he'll have it  real soon.

jay

 :bounce: :rock: :hyper: :eyebrows:
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Tyson on 5 Oct 2018, 04:12 pm
Here's the first set of finished  cabs for the  new  Neo3/Neo10 OB's.  We did these up for  HAL (Rich in  Aegean Blue).... he'll  have them  at  CAF 2018 so  you'll be able to stop by and  have a  listen/look.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=185162)

Those look amazing!!

jay

Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Captainhemo on 18 Oct 2018, 05:01 pm
Thanks Tyson

Most of the development of these  speakers  has been posted in this thread  so might as well continue here....
Cabinets arrive safe and sound at HAL  yesterday.  Rich has them  fitted out  and wired along with the  dual 12 modular servo subs in satin/hot-rod black.  Here they are  ready  for  some   tunes :dance:

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=185602)

He'll likely post  some listening impressions here:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153244.140

jay
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: maty on 27 Jan 2020, 10:39 pm
Neo3-Off BG vs GR vs Sounderlink

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-and-exotics/347386-neo3-bg-vs-gr-vs-sounderlink.html

A lot of graphs.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 28 Jan 2020, 01:44 pm
Neo3-Off BG vs GR vs Sounderlink

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-and-exotics/347386-neo3-bg-vs-gr-vs-sounderlink.html

A lot of graphs.

Trying to take distortion measurements in a room.... :duh:

He needs to give them a listening comparison.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: maty on 28 Jan 2020, 02:11 pm
I agree but... the same problem is with ALL tweeters measured so the graphics should not differ just, that is the question.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: cujobob on 30 Jan 2020, 01:48 pm
A random post I found about some differences between Kapton and Kaladex, is this the reason for different distortion measurements (they mention Kapton being noisy when vibrated, but also ideal for this application)?

https://www.audioasylum.com/forums/MUG/messages/22/226055.html

Danny, (if you care to share this) why did your Neo 3 version use Kapton instead of Kaladex as has been previously used?

I've always appreciated the Neo 3 from BG, in my mind, you can't really do any better without dropping serious coin.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 30 Jan 2020, 02:04 pm
A random post I found about some differences between Kapton and Kaladex, is this the reason for different distortion measurements (they mention Kapton being noisy when vibrated, but also ideal for this application)?

https://www.audioasylum.com/forums/MUG/messages/22/226055.html

Danny, (if you care to share this) why did your Neo 3 version use Kapton instead of Kaladex as has been previously used?

I've always appreciated the Neo 3 from BG, in my mind, you can't really do any better without dropping serious coin.

You can't measure distortion with any accuracy outside of an anechoic chamber. And those numbers won't tell you how it sounds.

Kapton handles heat better.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: DaveFred on 24 Mar 2020, 06:35 pm
Are there any commercial waveguides that work with the GR Neo 3?

Or suggestions on a homemade one?
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 25 Mar 2020, 01:26 am
Are there any commercial waveguides that work with the GR Neo 3?

Or suggestions on a homemade one?

I will be testing one shortly.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: ani_101 on 10 Jun 2020, 01:34 pm
Okay, I measured a group of them and the measurements looked real good. I think the consistency is a little better than the ones I used to get from BG. And the responses sure look good in the NX-Otica baffle with wave guide that I was measuring them in.

BG made these in two versions. There was a standard version that had five rows of magnets and then a pdr version that only had three rows of magnets and a row of felt filling the two outside rows on both sides. The pdr version had reduced sensitivity due to less motor strength. Also, the added felt on the sides falls under a patent that BG owned. And it is now owned by new owners, Christy Digital.

What I had BG do for me was build a base unit with all five rows of magnets but add the felt to the front side only. This gave the improved off axis response of the pdr version while keeping the higher sensitivity of the base model.

Now if I sell them with felt on the outside rows like the pdr version from BG then I am opening myself up for a patent suit. So they will be sold as seen here and open in all rows, front and back.

However, my testing reveals that a thick black yard feed through the outer rows produces the same effect and response as the felt used in the BG models.

So I can supply the tweeters and the yarn, but you guys will need to install the yarn yourselves. It is quite easy though.

Just wrap a little tape around the end of the yarn so that you can feed it through the outer rows.

Sliding it through with a toothpick is very easy. And then just pull it up and out in the end.

Then just trim off the tape on the end and push the end down into the outer hole using the end of a zip tie.

Then trim the other end off and do the same.

It's pretty easy and just takes a few minutes. Just don't use anything magnetically conductive or the magnets will try and grab it.


Hi Danny

these don't seem to have the back cup so looks like the dipole ones. Is the yard required on the backside too to match the front dispersion? Looking at the image, it looks like the yard will be tightly pressed agaist the white felt and the flim. I am planning to buy a pair and install the yarn, but not sure if this can be used in dipole or mono pole or both and what sort of chamber should i use for mono pole?

Is there some simple waveguide that can be created / routed on the baffle for the front / back for dipole use?

I came here directly from the product page - Apologies if these questions are already covered, some pointers would be helpful.

Thanks and Regards
Ani
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: DaveFred on 10 Jun 2020, 01:42 pm
Hello Danny,

Do you think this one might fit?

https://radianaudio.com/products/lt2-wave-guide

Thank you,

David.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 10 Jun 2020, 02:37 pm
Hi Danny

these don't seem to have the back cup so looks like the dipole ones. Is the yard required on the backside too to match the front dispersion?

We only use the yarn on the front side.

Quote
Looking at the image, it looks like the yard will be tightly pressed agaist the white felt and the flim. I am planning to buy a pair and install the yarn, but not sure if this can be used in dipole or mono pole or both and what sort of chamber should i use for mono pole?

Right now we are just using them in open baffle applications. And the yarn is very little filling that area. It touches but is not pressed against the diaphragm material.

Quote
Is there some simple waveguide that can be created / routed on the baffle for the front / back for dipole use?

Peter has sent me a wave guide to test that he CNC cut. I should have tested it already, but have just not had time to touch it. It's coming.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 10 Jun 2020, 02:38 pm
Hello Danny,

Do you think this one might fit?

https://radianaudio.com/products/lt2-wave-guide

Thank you,

David.

Those only fit the new Radian drivers.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: ani_101 on 10 Jun 2020, 09:28 pm
We only use the yarn on the front side.

Right now we are just using them in open baffle applications. And the yarn is very little filling that area. It touches but is not pressed against the diaphragm material.

Peter has sent me a wave guide to test that he CNC cut. I should have tested it already, but have just not had time to touch it. It's coming.

Thanks you, this is helpful. You have the tweeters in stock i assume for the near future.

Awaiting the waveguide details.

Thanks!
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: quailpark on 28 Sep 2020, 12:57 am
This is an excellent thread. I’ve just joined the mix and am wondering why nobody has mentioned that Danny’s wonderful Line Array replicated the wonderful Infinity IRS systems of the 80’s. They IRS is one of the top systems ever built and I’m sure Danny’s system produces even better sound. With the Neo10s in such short supply and so expensive, why not use the Neo8 with large wings like the IRS did? The EMIM had very similar response to the Neo8 but when used in large numbers and with wings, it was able to produce prodigious amounts of low base down to ~150hz if memory serves me right.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: HAL on 28 Sep 2020, 01:07 am
The NEO8's will not go down low enough in frequency by themselves to go to 150Hz.  That is why they are NEO3's and NEO10's in Danny's planar line array.

The other thread is where we are talking about both the GRS NEO3 and NEO10 style drivers.  I have both drivers in a Super Mini baffle for testing.

Once I get get a rain free day, will be taking the baffle outside for a set of CLIO Pocket measurements.  The results will be in the other thread.  Hopefully that might be tomorrow as the forecast is good.
Title: Overall sound quality of the GR Neo-3s
Post by: jeffreybehr on 21 Oct 2020, 11:58 pm
Without getting involved with the myriad of details and understanding that if ever I was a golden-eared audiophile I'm sure not now, does the GR Neo-3 have a similar very-hi-quality treble that the B-G Neo-3 PDR has/had?

In 2011 I became dissatisfied with the quality of the treble of my Avantii IIIs' ring radiator (RR) and after a fair amount of advice (some advising me NOT to do it), I simply replaced the RR with a G-B Neo-3 PDR.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216093)

The treble sounded GREAT, and, to my surprise, it worked excellently with the original 3-pole x-over, so all I did was add a wool-felt pad.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216094)

I think it's time to do a similar thing with the silk-dome tweeters in my Vienna Acoustics Mahlers.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=216095)
Of course, the FIRST thing I'll need to determine is how to remove the originals.   :oops:


Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: JakeJ on 22 Oct 2020, 12:44 am
A daunting task to be sure.  I think, just looking at the VA tweeter and not seeing the rest of the cabinet, you are going to have to get inside the cabinet through one of the other driver holes.  I'm betting there are studs in the back side of that faceplate that need to have nuts removed to pull the entire assembly.  Those four screws around the tweeter dome just holds the driver to the faceplate.

Good luck and keep us posted.
Title: Re: Overall sound quality of the GR Neo-3s
Post by: Danny Richie on 22 Oct 2020, 01:17 am
Without getting involved with the myriad of details and understanding that if ever I was a golden-eared audiophile I'm sure not now, does the GR Neo-3 have a similar very-hi-quality treble that the B-G Neo-3 PDR has/had?

In 2011 I became dissatisfied with the quality of the treble of my Avantii IIIs' ring radiator (RR) and after a fair amount of advice (some advising me NOT to do it), I simply replaced the RR with a G-B Neo-3 PDR.

Ours is a little cleaner and clearer than the BG version but very similar.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: DaveFred on 20 Feb 2021, 02:21 pm
I will be testing one shortly.

re:waveguide for Neo 3.

Hello Danny,

Any update on the waveguide for the Neo 3?

Thank you,

David.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Danny Richie on 28 Feb 2021, 01:52 am
re:waveguide for Neo 3.

Hello Danny,

Any update on the waveguide for the Neo 3?

Thank you,

David.

We found it much easier to CNC mill them into the front baffles.
Title: Re: New GR Neo 3 tweeters are here.
Post by: Hobbsmeerkat on 28 Feb 2021, 02:46 am
I'm still messing around with waveguide, rods & deep cup ideas, but the issue I've noticed so far is throat cancellations, esp with the rods.
But I still need to get back to tweaking the deep cup idea for a proper fitment with the GR Neo3 as well as the GRS-3 & BG Neo3.
Hopefully I can work on it over the next couple days.