AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Critic's Circle (Equipment Reviews) => Source Component Reviews => Topic started by: Pez on 12 Sep 2011, 12:40 am
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Back story
This review has been a long time coming. For one, Wayne has been modding squeezeboxes since they started coming out. Time and time again he has invited me over to listen to the various players that have come and gone and each time I decided not to pursue this new fangled way of listening to music. Part of it was sheer self-inflicted ignorance on my part. I didn't want to learn about FLAC or 24/96, or media servers or any of that crap. Not because I'm a luddite, quite to the contrary I am an avid techno-dork. It was more that I was holding on to the ghosts of the past. Namely my Sony XA777ES sacd player and the wonderful music it produced over the years via DSD and redbook. The idea of parting with my relatively minuscule, though not insignificant, collection of Hi Rez was less than pleasant.
Fast forward to this summer. I'm not sure what it was that made me 'go for it' but I saw a SB touch for $200 and just decided to bite the bullet. I bought one, it shipped out, and I promptly stuffed it in my closet for several months. :duh: I finally got around to mentioning to Wayne that I had it. He was kind enough to offer his Touch for me to use along with a Welborne power supply he happened to have on hand. UGH! Game on I suppose. As anyone who's ever moved their entire CD collection over to a server could probably tell you it was a massive pain in the ass. Tantamount to dental work. Of course after figuring out a system that worked for me using a combination of Flac and Apple Lossless I was ready to go.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=51217)
Bolder modded Squeezebox Touch digital only with Deluxe Power supply with Bybee music rails and Nitro Umbilical.
The review
Finally I was ready to go. I setup Wayne's SB touch and Welborne PS. It took me about 30 minutes to realize that this combo was not just better than the Sony, it was vastly superior. I mean ridiculously better. Music that I had on SACD sounded worse on the Sony than the very same disc transferred to 16/44.1 sounded on the SB. The Sony is no slouch, as a matter of fact it is a great player. Even stock the Sony is one of the better sources I have heard and owned ever. Yet here I was trying to remember the reasons why I'd put this off for so long... The answer still eludes me. :duh:
I lived with the Welborne for quite a while as Wayne was busy with other peoples orders and I was out of town most of the summer so I told him to take his sweet time getting it done as I was enjoying the Touch/Welborne combo very much and didn't see any reason to hurry. The Welborne is a great power supply, it's focused, it's wonderfully alive sounding and has great soundstage, though it didn't do a great job of drawing me into the music. A little hifi-ish sounding. A bit heavy handed with detail. The kind of gear that says to you 'do you hear the f#cking detail? You should be pissing your pants with joy!!!'. Not forward sounding, but trying very hard to sound great, if you know what I mean.
The power supply itself seemed to have a bit of a buzz emitting from the transformer, but from the listening position it was a moot point as no sound could be heard. The color of the thing was pretty heinous, an ugly anodized red color with a big distracting blue LED in the center, but hey, looks aren't everything.
Beginning of August Wayne let me know that my Touch and power supply were finished. I told him to hang on to it and break it in, which he happily obliged. Mid August I made the trade with him and got my new toys, broken in and ready to play. I had him do the Digital only upgrade and the power supply has music rails upgrade and Nitro umbilical. I have to say, Wayne's power supply is kinda sexy in an understated way. Just a black semi trapezoidal box. No blazing LEDs or deals stating what it is or does, just a fuse cap, IEC connector and XLR connector for the PS to the SB on the back of the unit.
I got the new SB set up. I was not expecting much, maybe a little difference between the Welborne in that this PS has the Bybee Music rails. What I got instead was absurdly better than what I expected. Waynes power supply made the Welborne unit beg for a merciful and quick death. It was laid back and oh so analog sounding (not a trait I would attribute to the Welborne supply at all, or any digital source I have ever heard before) It has the amazing ability to make mediocre recordings sound great, not just listenable, but actually great. Bjorks Vespertine which has long been an acid test for sibilance and digititis (a word I just made up for music sounding... well, digital and jittery) was no longer an acid test, but a wonderfully emotional experience which is what the album should sound like on any system, but never does.
Feists 'A Reminder' track Brandy Alexander is rich and intimately presented. Again it is so laid back and easy sounding through Bolder PS and touch mods. I love this track and it seems to be one of those that sounds great on any system, but I have never heard it sound like this.
Hi Rez
I have been purchasing a lot of Hi Rez for the SB lately and though 16/44.1 is great, Hi Rez through this setup makes me angry. It makes me wish my entire collection could sound like this. Listening to Peter Gabriel's Us in 24/96 is religious, freaking spiritual. Come Talk to Me gives such a larger than life presentation without sounding like silly international music, which it most definitely can sound like through the Welborne as it lacks the bass punch and fundamental fullness. Marvin Gaye Collection from HD tracks is awesome (get it it you haven't) and through the Bolder Touch I have never heard Marvin like this. Lush full and life like, I forgot to actually analyze while listening and just enjoyed what I was hearing in ways I'd never had before.
Conclusion
It's rare when I have the opportunity to do an upgrade that is in every way superior to my previous equipment. Many of my other reviews I find myself holding back on something, whether it be build quality, some nit about sound quality, or even the way a product looks. With the Bolder modded Squeezebox and power supply with music rails I can find no such nit to pick... None. It is the kind of upgrade that elevates my entire listening experience and breaths life into music that has not impressed me for years. Not to mention the ease of being able to just queue up music at a click, but that's a topic for another time. Wayne has truly outdone himself and more importantly the competition here and I recommend this product without reserve.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=51218)
SB w/ the rest of my front end.
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I have the same setup and have to agree!
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Pez--Great review, very well written and fun to read!!!
Wayne threw together a modest mod to a PS he happened to have on hand when I got my touch and couldn't stand the stock supply. If he hadn't stepped in I'd of sent the stock unit back and I found all those annoyances I had at first vanished when I plugged in the freshly tweaked unit he sent to power mine. Pez its a great thing he was around for us both, you would have hated the stock Touch..thin, narrow soundstage I found for me.......he really seems to know his stuff. Enjoyed the read Pez!!! :thumb: +2
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that he does!
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Great review. I have a Welbourne on mine (for now). I have a Channel Islands power supply although I have not tried it on the Touch (using it on an HDMI audio de-embedder). I ordered the Jerome and will send it off for mods after I get it (I have another HDMI audio de-embedder in the secondary basement system so I can always use another power supply).
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Pez - Which Bolder power supply did you buy?
Are you using a dac?
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Thanks to Pez for the review.
Jason was a long time holdout against storing music on a hard drive. I am glad that he finally caught up to the rest of the world.
I would like to point out that his "reference" transport was one of Sony's best at the time. It retailed for $3,000.00. It was CD and SACD ONLY, no video circuits.
Here is the conclusion of the review from Stereophile "Conclusions:
The XA777ES is a top-class CD player whose price might be justified without regard to its SACD capabilities. Whether that's due to its multiple paralleled DACs, the use of a separate laser head for CDs, its tank-like construction, or any other attribute, is moot. This is the first SACD or DVD-Audio player in my experience to offer no performance concession to any dedicated CD player. You've got to accept the Sony's cool, clear view of the music without any coddling of harsh transients or glare, but when you do, you can also expect it to deliver great musical satisfaction when the source material is up to snuff.
As an SACD player, regardless of the number of channels in use, the SCD-XA777ES is a perceptible advance on the Philips SACD 1000. The Sony's transparency transformed my multichannel experience from one of hopeful investigation into one of thorough musical enjoyment. I wish I'd had the opportunity to compare it with the illustrious SCD-1 or its predecessor, the SCD-777ES, but so strong is my enthusiasm for this moderately priced but more capable model that I can't imagine that such comparisons could dampen my recommendation: The Sony SCD-XA777ES establishes a new standard for SACD reproduction in my experience. No baloney. "
I am EXTREMELY pleased when someone with Jason's ears prefers the sound of a modded $300.00 network media player using a VERY good power supply to that of a former state of the art dedicated transport.
I do wonder sometimes when I read comments about people's music servers when they say the server comes close to their dedicated player. What Jason relates is far closer to my comparisons. The modded SB with good power supply sounds BETTER than most dedicated transports. You should also be easily be able to tell the difference between 16/44 and 24/96 source material, as Jason describes.
Jason is using the digital output of the modded Touch into a modded Behringer DCX2496 feeding his tri-amped VMPS RM-40s. His mid and high frequency amps are Simple SE tube amps that he built (with a little help :wink: ) himself. The woofer amp is a QSC pro amp usually found in commercial movie theaters.
The power supply I built for Jason is what is currently known as the Deluxe Power Supply. It is very similar to the "Standard" power supply I build with the addition of the Bybee Music Rail. They both use Acme Audio cryo-treated IEC inlets, fuse holder and fuse. All internal wiring is my Nitro. Everything is hand built and assembled with point to point wiring. No etched circuit board paths.
The filter caps and reservoir caps are bypassed with film caps. All of this does add up to deliver the sound that Pez describes.
Thanks again for putting into words what you hear when you listen to the music instead of the gear.
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Regarding the Sony it was rated Stereophile Class A+ and is the only peice of gear that I have ever owned for more than 10 years, so yes... It is a very good player, yet it was not even close to the level of the Bolder modded SB and PS.
I have added pictures. This is a superb combo.
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You mention you had the digital mods only done to the touch. Were you using the digital out with a DAC? If so, what DAC were you using?
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Same power supply here. No dig mod on the Touch. So are you using an outboard dac?
I agree with Wayne; server-based shames CDP-based. Organic and orgasmic!
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The SB is feeding directly into the DCX digital section. The DCX internal dac goes up to 24/96. No dac necessary and in fact having one would probably be detrimental due to having two DA converters in line.
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Well, and you should point out that your DCX is NOT stock :)
I got to hear the Touch w/modded PS in my system when Jason came by a week ago - he's not kidding, it's THAT good.
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I have to say that the break-in for the Deluxe PS is wild and wooly! Wayne of course told me to hang on for the ride....after 300+ hours, it is so worth it.
Pez you done good by letting Wayne break it in for you!!
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Ya, I am very glad I didn't have to go through break in. :thumb: the worst part of buying any product IMO.
The sony is going up on eBay. I would normally audiogon it, but I think I'll get more mullah with eBay.
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wow.. You should get paid to write reviews like that. Sold. As soon as I go all file based I'll go this route.
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Thanks for the review Pez, very useful and well written. :thumb:
I also use a modded Behringer as a DAC (but the DEQ2496 as I have single driver speakers). Scott Endler did mine and it compared well enough to the stock Eastern Electric DAC that I sold the highly touted EE. (I know Wayne could have improved on it, but I didn't want to invest that much into a DAC.)
I tried someone else's mods on a SB3 years ago and it (or the software at the time) produced "glitches" every couple of weeks that I could only fix by fumbling/stumbling (I'm a caveman when it comes to computers). The glitches drove me nuts, so I dumped it and went back to CDPs. Now my nice transport has apparently died and I'm slumming with an old Oppo (also Stereophile rated), so I'm one step closer to a music server.
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Well I won't vouch for any issues you had with the software. I will say that SB server is FAR from perfect. But the convenience of the SB coupled with the fact that I have heard this player destroy some serious contenders (think AMR) forget it. It's just plain superior... We brought the SB to tyson's house and compared it to his Scott Nixon via the blue circle thingy direct from his computer which in his system has been superior to anything else. The SB trounced that as well.
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A touch with a modded power supply like the one I got from Wayne are pretty incredible little units. I'm in the midst of some system changes (new DAC will arrive soon from Schiit) and lately have really listened to what I have and I am still hearing new things, new textures and weight within the music like I did the first week I put everything into service.
I am sort of afraid to screw around with the sound too much, I really like what I have now. A modded power supply -in my opinion- is the key piece of equipment to really bringing the SB touch alive. The software tweaks helped a lot but nothing like the PS did. :thumb:
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Eclein do you have the Bybee Rail mod?
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Not yet, its modded per Wayne but the Bybee's haven't been installed yet, thats my next thing I'm saving for even before I decide on what DAC now. I intend on getting the Touch Digital Mod and Bybees for the PS, at that point I think I'll be fully modded until Wayne finds another area to redesign/rebuild/modify/Waynify......
I will be fully Waynified!!!! :thumb: :thumb:
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1) To the person that was hostile over my word use of God, sorry. I didn't intent for its use to spark so much drama. For whatever it's worth, I am a non-believer aside from love. It is extremely simplistic to understand how one can believe in a God, how one can believe in being an atheist, and so on...and one is entitled to believe what one will. But I did not know that using the word God instead of Luke Skywalker, Indiana Jones, Chewy, ET, etc. would spark such a reaction that again, I am sorry for. So I hope you accept my apologies for what I said.
2) The Sony 777 is not a good cdp. It is good for SACD since it plays an SACD disc. But in its day and progressing along, it was never a device I would consider good.
3) I brought up the argument about power supplies because on EVERY board, the power supply has been at best, a "very subtle" difference, and at worse, a waste of money with zero difference at all. That the Boulder one can do things no other supply can do sparks my interest.
4) The people that cannot hear these incredible differences (but may or may not hear some difference) are ones that not only have exceptional systems, but have a lot of connections with hi-end stores, studios, people in the industry, etc. They also have at minimum, 20K systems that have components reviewed as being bargains in the industry. There's really two sides of an argument: 1) If a system is ruthlessly revealing, you will hear even the most minute little glitches that I believe 99.9% of all "audiophiles" cannot hear or will never have this level of transparency to have a chance to hear....or 2) A system that may be good/fun to listen to, but by another's standard's is way below transparent/reference standards, would "immediately" reveal and also have the greatest chance of "breaking in" a component.
5) Last and not least, I did not realize this was a product review section and I want to apologize to the OP. Had I known it was in the reviews section, I would never have posted what I did. There's soooooo many sections in this forum that I thought I had found the right one, but no I did not! Wish this forum was far more simple as it once used to be so I didn't come in and do such an idiot thing with posting what I did in a review=ack!!!
Also, I never mentioned it, but the review is very enthusiastic, it sounds like the jar of worms has been opened (as a good thing:)), and the OP has been enjoying music in a way that he had not been for not sure how long, but sounded like a long time! ANYTIME we have a wonderful experience with audio, it's a real treat. That the OP has discovered this new transport to replace the Sony is a BIG thumbs up from me!
Now if I can just find the right section to discuss the power supply subject...
NOTE: ALL Important things are in BOLD. All things that are just a continuation of my last post and should now be considered irrelevant are NOT in bold.
Cheers!
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Wow... Ok take a deep breath.
Done?
I don't know these people and quite honestly I don't care what some dude at headfi hears or doesn't hear. If you are unsure that you are capable of hearing the difference use a reference. I did. I compared it to my Sony SACD player to the SB before mods, then with the basic power supply I mentioned, and then balls to the wall modded and it wasn't a small difference at all. It's like going from VHS to bluray. If you want to compare the two hang on to your garbage power supply and compare that to the new power supply. Simple. Also what equipment are you running? Is it going to be in the same league as the Bolder modded SB?
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Wow... Ok take a deep breath.
Done?
I don't know these people and quite honestly I don't care what some dude at headfi hears or doesn't hear. If you are unsure that you are capable of hearing the difference use a reference. I did. I compared it to my Sony SACD player to the SB before mods, then with the basic power supply I mentioned, and then balls to the wall modded and it wasn't a small difference at all. It's like going from VHS to bluray. If you want to compare the two hang on to your garbage power supply and compare that to the new power supply. Simple. Also what equipment are you running? Is it going to be in the same league as the Bolder modded SB?
yeah... deep breath for sure...
well said Jason, particularly about the rest of the gear one is listening with. there are a "ton" of 'reviews' using gear that is not as good as the piece they are evaluating. not much point to that, eh?
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audioexcels, go away.
I find some of your post extremely offensive and in very poor taste. I do not care about or nor is it relevant what your beliefs are but your incisive, provocative and cavelier statements about God do not belong in an audio forum.
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I do wonder sometimes when I read comments about people's music servers when they say the server comes close to their dedicated player. What Jason relates is far closer to my comparisons. The modded SB with good power supply sounds BETTER than most dedicated transports. You should also be easily be able to tell the difference between 16/44 and 24/96 source material, as Jason describes.
I have a modded SB2 (yeah, it's older), and it beat everything I had. My tube based CD player (Shengya) was very close, but the modded SB2 beat it, too. Everything else I had was left in the dust.
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OK! Took some time and will only say....
Think what you want, it's your choice. All I can say is the Bolder Deluxe PS took an extended period of time to "break-in" as Wayne told me it would. I've experienced "break-in" on several components, most notably the Bolder PS, Wyred DAC-1, Wyred STP-SE and each of the Odyssey amps I've owned. They change over time, don't know why or do I care! Each has acted as the manufacturer said they would during this "break-in" period.
The Deluxe PS has made a major change in the sound quality of my Bolder digital mod'd touch. I've pulled the PS and put back in the Logitech supplied PS and there is a difference....period, end of statement at least to my ears and in my system.
Thanks for the great work Wayne
Mark
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Ok, guys and girls... everyone take a deep breath and count to 10 before posting. Thank you!
First, please keep your discussions focused on the product at hand.
Second, I would suggest that everyone review both the AudioCircle Posting Guidelines (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=37305.0) and the Critic's Circle Guidelines (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=45439.0) before posting again, and modify your existing posts if necessary.
Please be respectful of your fellow audiophiles, including their differences!
PMs have been sent, and I would prefer not to have to take any more time away from this holiday weekend to send more. Thank you, and enjoy your weekend!
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2) The Sony 777 is not a good cdp. It is good for SACD since it plays an SACD disc. But in its day and progressing along, it was never a device I would consider good.
3) I brought up the argument about power supplies because on EVERY board, the power supply has been at best, a "very subtle" difference, and at worse, a waste of money with zero difference at all. That the Boulder one can do things no other supply can do sparks my interest.
I'm getting the distinct impression you have never actually heard the Sony. Why? It is MUCH better than the stock squeezebox. WORLDS better for redbook and hi rez. If you are listening to a stock SB you are listening to something that I would call utter garbage, unusable and not worthy of being called hifi. So to say the sony is not a good player is pretty uniformed especially when you are saying you doubt there's a difference between the junk switching power supply and a well built linear one. You haven't actually heard any of the equipment you're questioning other than maybe the stock SB.
4) The people that cannot hear these incredible differences (but may or may not hear some difference) are ones that not only have exceptional systems, but have a lot of connections with hi-end stores, studios, people in the industry, etc. They also have at minimum, 20K systems that have components reviewed as being bargains in the industry. There's really two sides of an argument: 1) If a system is ruthlessly revealing, you will hear even the most minute little glitches that I believe 99.9% of all "audiophiles" cannot hear or will never have this level of transparency to have a chance to hear....or 2) A system that may be good/fun to listen to, but by another's standard's is way below transparent/reference standards, would "immediately" reveal and also have the greatest chance of "breaking in" a component.
You keep talking about 'EVERY other forum' and 'every other person' but you haven't sited a single one. Also, my system is pretty top tier IMO. I would call it ruthlessly revealing. Also if having connections to people within the industry has anything to do with my opinion (you mentioned these other people having 'connections with hi-end stores, studios, people in the industry, etc.') then you need look no further than me. :lol: I would probably take home the prize on that one. By that logic my review is WAY more valid. :wink:
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The difference between the stock switching PSU and my music railed' Bolder elpac is profound. Its not subtle or straining to hear a difference, its huge and in your face. The burn in time is very real, however one can tell pre-burn in from the moment it goes into the system that its a significant improvement. It just takes a while to stabalize... over the first couple weeks you'll have some really, really great listening sessions and then some that are actually as bad or worse then stock.
That said, whats huge to me, in my system may be subtle or invisible to another. To me its a gigantic upgrade relative to the coin. I've owned some relatively expensive CDPs over the years and this is easily my best digital source (Bolder'ed/Bybee'd Elpac, Bolder SB Touch, Bolder EE Minimax and a Wywires SPDIF).
If the differences are not significant to you, maybe its better not to waste time in this hobby. Thats not a slight, the vast majority of the population doesn't sweat things like power supply upgrades--your wallet would certainly thank you.
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The burn in time is very real, however one can tell pre-burn in from the moment it goes into the system that its a significant improvement. It just takes a while to stabalize... over the first couple weeks you'll have some really, really great listening sessions and then some that are actually as bad or worse then stock.
This is very true even when applied to Bolder digital modded SB Touch. Now after 3,4 weeks it has become a very musical source component.