[theater_lover]

I really don't care if speaker cables make a difference, but these arguments are just silly and the logic is backwards.

No one here has presented any reason why some of the sonic differences presented by swapping cables could not be recorded.  It is just "it can't be done".

Let's flip this around a bit.

If Amir demonstrated that a cable swap did make a difference, and I believe he would share such a result, all the "believers" here would absolutely point to it as proof.

Likewise, as I have been trying to get Danny to do, if even some difference was noted in a well done recording evaluation, I would give that the benefit of the doubt that some people with some systems might find reward in a different cable and that the actual listening experience would surpass the differences able to be recorded with the limitations of microphones (versus the way we hear in room).

Let's say for instance that cables don't make any difference and that the benefits observed by some are all in their head.  There is literally no way to convince such a person this is the truth.  They "observe" the difference, therefore it is real.  Your tests don't show what I hear, so the tests are meaningless.  They only have validity if they support what I observe.  This, by any definition, is "flat earth" thinking.

In turn, the "believers" are only offering their observations and no tests as proof.  Not only no tests, but "you can't test it".  You can't find fault in tests that don't exist.  "Just come and listen to my system" is not a test... that is what should be tested.

The two arguments are not equal and should not be treated as such.

[Danny Richie]

Theater Lover,

I just posted about this on page 5: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=175006.msg1847882#msg1847882

[theater_lover]

Theater Lover,

I just posted about this on page 5: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=175006.msg1847882#msg1847882

I am sure we are all interested in what you may present, but some better mics/recorder may be in order than what is on your camera.
My hope is that it will be as direct and substantive as any of your "upgrade" videos, and less on the periphery.

So you understand... if you did a test as I am proposing, and it had results indicating what you have been describing in other, less direct ways, I will absolutely applaud it.

Here is another question for you...
If cables do make a difference in a high quality system/room, do you use such cables on your speaker design profiling tools?  Both feeding the drivers, and from the mic?  If not, why not?  Wouldn't that mean that all of the deficits of "normal" cables are being baked into your profiling?  Couldn't your system illustrate the differences?

Thanks.

[Tyson]

theater_lover - if you tried out some different cables in your system and you heard a difference, would you discount your own experience?

[mkrawcz]

Bascom H King, who is probably the most experienced amp designer/reviewer alive says this. "These circuits pass the information of the sound through them in a way that is absolutely unrelated to the intellectual aspects that you can measure so far. They pass the vibe if you will. I don't know the answer, I just know what I hear and go with it." He was talking about tubes, but he applies the same argument to cables in another video. Maybe Amir at Audiosciencereview should put his money where his mouth is and design an amplifier that sounds better than Bascom Kings amps. I doubt he will succeed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTofAZO3DkI

[Hobbsmeerkat]

Out of curiosity, i remember Paul Mcgowan mentioning something called a "Hafler circuit" that only plays the difference between the positive ends of each channel.



Could a similar setup, playing a mono signal, be a means to reveal the difference between cables? With a mono signal, identical cables should mean no difference as they will cancel out, but using different cables could reveal a different between the two?

[Peter J]

Cables... the perpetual circular discussion. I'm reminded of lyrics from a Neil Young song.

"Round and round and round we spin, to weave a wall to hem us in..."

[mkrawcz]

Cables... the perpetual circular discussion. I'm reminded of lyrics from a Neil Young song.

"Round and round and round we spin, to weave a wall to hem us in..."

It would probably not be as big a deal if there weren't prima donna's on Youtube like Gene DellaSala attacking businesses and people's livelihoods because be believes something to the contrary.

[sarora9]

Maybe Amir at Audiosciencereview should put his money where his mouth is and design an amplifier that sounds better than Bascom Kings amps. I doubt he will succeed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTofAZO3DkI

Well, the naysayers could define the problem away by saying that if the amps measured the same then clearly the people who claim to hear a difference are mistaken and **would not** be able to spot the difference in a double blind setting.

[Tyson]

That's the beauty of the naysayer's logic.  If they say that cables that measure the same cannot sound different, then they are forced to conclude that amps or DACs that measure the same must also sound the same.  So you might as well build your system out of a cheap receiver and zip cord for wire.  I mean, if it measures the same, it must sound the same, right?

[mkrawcz]

That's the beauty of the naysayer's logic.  If they say that cables that measure the same cannot sound different, then they are forced to conclude that amps or DACs that measure the same must also sound the same.  So you might as well build your system out of a cheap receiver and zip cord for wire.  I mean, if it measures the same, it must sound the same, right?

That is exactly what they believe.

[theater_lover]

theater_lover - if you tried out some different cables in your system and you heard a difference, would you discount your own experience?

I have never said cables can't make a difference, that isn't my argument at all.

I'm simply saying that if I heard a difference I know I could record some of that difference, if it were real, and to rule out that possibility means that you don't want to find out if it is real.  Secondly, one perspective is ruling out the validity of the other's tests because they don't subscribe to their subjective experience, and then (half jokingly) calling them flat earthers... when it is really they who should be given the nickname because they only believe what they observe.

I also know that I, like everybody, could trick myself into hearing a difference.

Simple example.  I sit down and listen to a song I know well, but I haven't heard recently.  Cable swap.  Listen to the track again.  I would absolutely "hear" new things, more detail, etc.  Why?  I would hear new things without a cable swap.  It is simply a function of short term memory and the mind's way of processing information.  On the second listen the mind would pay less attention to things it "knows" and try to find new information... so it does.  This holds true for anything done more than once.  Food sampling, reading, looking at a picture, watching a movie.  The more you concentrate on something, the more you absorb its finer properties.

Now, add to that any bias on my end to want a new cable to sound better.  If I am swapping parts of a system out it is because I want it to sound better.  There is inherent motivation for me to like the new thing more, and we all know we are guilty of choosing the new and shiny thing because it is new and shiny.

I also believe that there is a little bit of ego going on here.  If one person says that they can hear something, another will want to be able to hear it as well, and could trick themselves into hearing it.  "Listen to how everything opens up as I switch to this cable"  "Oh, yeah, I hear it".  Or, "Audiophiles can hear differences in cables.  I want to be an audiophile, so I want to hear the difference too."  Maybe it did make a difference, or maybe you are convincing yourself it is.

Lastly, nobody wants to admit they are tricking themselves, but for some reason we all tend to find that our year old speakers don't sound quite as good as we remember them sounding, and maybe we should start looking for something different.  The speakers haven't changed.  Your perception of them has.

[mkrawcz]

nobody wants to admit they are tricking themselves, but for some reason we all tend to find that our year old speakers don't sound quite as good as we remember them sounding, and maybe we should start looking for something different.  The speakers haven't changed.  Your perception of them has.

That's the result of a poor speaker. I experienced that with every speaker I ever owned until Danny's NX-Oticas which I listen to at least 2 hours a day on weekdays and many more on the weekends for the past year and it never sounds poor at all. Why, because the designer listened to it to make it sound good while developing it.

[dflee]

"Simple example.  I sit down and listen to a song I know well, but I haven't heard recently.  Cable swap.  Listen to the track again.  I would absolutely "hear" new things, more detail, etc.  Why?  I would hear new things without a cable swap.  It is simply a function of short term memory and the mind's way of processing information.  On the second listen the mind would pay less attention to things it "knows" and try to find new information... so it does.  This holds true for anything done more than once.  Food sampling, reading, looking at a picture, watching a movie.  The more you concentrate on something, the more you absorb its finer properties."

It's for that reason that you should go back to the first cable and listen again. Can you hear the new information from the second cable and see if it's there.
I use a pair of Cardas single male to dual female so I can change back and forth instantly through my pre. I've also gone to listening through my headphones cause it's a lot easier to catch detail.
"Lastly, nobody wants to admit they are tricking themselves, but for some reason we all tend to find that our year old speakers don't sound quite as good as we remember them sounding, and maybe we should start looking for something different.  The speakers haven't changed.  Your perception of them has."
Or just maybe the connections need cleaning.

Just me
Don

[Danny Richie]

Simple example.  I sit down and listen to a song I know well, but I haven't heard recently.  Cable swap.  Listen to the track again.  I would absolutely "hear" new things, more detail, etc.  Why?  I would hear new things without a cable swap.  It is simply a function of short term memory and the mind's way of processing information.  On the second listen the mind would pay less attention to things it "knows" and try to find new information... so it does.  This holds true for anything done more than once.  Food sampling, reading, looking at a picture, watching a movie.  The more you concentrate on something, the more you absorb its finer properties.

The differences are much more easily heard doing it the other way around. I let people hear the system as is and enjoy and learn what is being brought to the table. Then play an intro a few times and let them really learn it. Then switch the the more generic cable without telling them anything about what I may or may not have switched. Expectation is zero. And they response with, what just happened to the music?

Or I could build up a big expectation that I am about to switch over to the newest latest greatest cable and everything is going to go off the charts. And then switch the generic cable and there is no fooling anyone. When that sound stage falls apart and resolution goes away it's pretty obvious. And it doesn't matter how much they concentrate on it. You can't hear more from something that gives you less.

[theater_lover]

That's the beauty of the naysayer's logic.  If they say that cables that measure the same cannot sound different, then they are forced to conclude that amps or DACs that measure the same must also sound the same.  So you might as well build your system out of a cheap receiver and zip cord for wire.  I mean, if it measures the same, it must sound the same, right?

I think most people here are arguing the opposite.  Differences can be measured.  A tube amp sounding different than a solid state... if fully evaluated, they will not measure the same.  An $80 receiver won't measure the same as a $3000 one.  Room acoustics?  Tweeter frequency range?  Cabinet resonance?  Subwoofer speed?  Upgraded crossover?  Can all be measured.

But not cables... they are special.  You can only hear those.

[sarora9]

I think some of the noise in the debate comes from the type of music used for evaluation. With popular music (rock, hip hop etc.) there is no ground truth to compare to and tastes can differ about what sounds "good." (I note that Amir likes to test with popular music at high volumes.) With classical music there is a ground truth: the live experience, with no amplification.

For cable tests I have used classical music combining vocal and large ensembles (many good recordngs exist). Then you can compare the size and resolution of the soundstage and the timbre of instruments. Human voice and woodwinds are a great test; the reverberation and decay is key part of the timbre.

At the same time, there is no denying that inexpensive systems sound good too. Given the quality of bluetooth speakers costing a few hundred, I can see how for most people they are "good enough." They are probably much better than the bose roommate speakers I had in college and kept for a decade, hooked up to a CD walkman. https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/90EAAOSwxAFfv~tH/s-l300.jpg

[Early B.]

"Simple example.  I sit down and listen to a song I know well, but I haven't heard recently.  Cable swap.  Listen to the track again.  I would absolutely "hear" new things, more detail, etc.  Why?  I would hear new things without a cable swap.  It is simply a function of short term memory and the mind's way of processing information. 

That's not how your brain works. Musical memory doesn't function the same way as language memory. Can you remember song lyrics and melodies from 20 years ago? Of course you can. Can a guitarist play a song that he hasn't played in decades? Of course he can. That ain't short term memory.

If music was a function of short term memory, then there would be no audiophiles!!!  And we wouldn't be having this cable debate because ummm....what was I saying???

[theater_lover]

The differences are much more easily heard doing it the other way around. I let people hear the system as is and enjoy and learn what is being brought to the table. Then play an intro a few times and let them really learn it. Then switch the the more generic cable without telling them anything about what I may or may not have switched. Expectation is zero. And they response with, what just happened to the music?

Or I could build up a big expectation that I am about to switch over to the newest latest greatest cable and everything is going to go off the charts. And then switch the generic cable and there is no fooling anyone. When that sound stage falls apart and resolution goes away it's pretty obvious. And it doesn't matter how much they concentrate on it. You can't hear more from something that gives you less.

If it is that obvious, it can be recorded.

"You can't hear more from something that gives you less."

Happens all the time.  You can certainly hear more from the same, if you want to.


I'm not an expert in A/B testing and psychology, but I do know that it isn't hard to influence people during demonstration.

I would think a good test would be to not tell anyone anything, never show that anything is getting switched, never ask them about any changes and see if anyone notices.

[Danny Richie]

If it is that obvious, it can be recorded.

I did that last weekend and pointed you to a whole post I made about it.