AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Tube-o-phile Circle => Topic started by: matthewpartrick on 15 Sep 2020, 02:56 pm
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For the Tube-o-phile circle members that have Vinnie Rossi products, I'd like to take the opportunity to continue the DHT thread here.
I have the VR2iSE, and am currently using the stock tubes. I also have the Svetlana SV811s, which are great for rock, very holographic, with great midrange and great punchy bass.
I have, in waiting, the 300bs from the Japanese company that escapes my memory right now, those are up next.
I also have the Ricardo Kron signature edition KR/Lampizator 300bs, those would be tried out third.
Anyone else out there still tube rolling with Vinnie Rossi products?
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Thanks for starting this thread. I have a L2iSE too, and would like to try out new tubes too, particularly the Takatuski 300Bs (which is the Japanese one you were referring to, I think). I currently have the stock tubes and the Svet 811s, so looks like I don't have any different tubes than what you have.
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Thanks for starting this thread. I have a L2iSE too, and would like to try out new tubes too, particularly the Takatuski 300Bs (which is the Japanese one you were referring to, I think). I currently have the stock tubes and the Svet 811s, so looks like I don't have any different tubes than what you have.
That's it the Takasuskis. They weren't cheap but they are beautiful, and the sound is pretty sublime.
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Sorry to be off topic, but what happened to the VR forum? I hope all is well...
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Sorry to be off topic, but what happened to the VR forum? I hope all is well...
It was archived per Vinnie's wishes. You can find the posts here:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=46.0
If you take a look at the last post, Vinnie explains why he felt this was the best decision for him.
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Why can't it be an owners forum? If someone is willing to take it over and Vinnie doesn't mind; I'm sure JohnR wouldn't mind.
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My goal with this thread is to continue the discussion on the use of DHTs in VR products. I am currently rocking the stock 2A3 EH, and they're great, but I also love the Svetlanas. The Bummer is that one of my kiddos broke one of the 811s a few weeks ago, and money is tight enough right now that I don't need to replace a matched pair right this very second. I have the Ricardo Kron 300b as well as the Takatsukis to try out.
The main reason I haven't really spent much time rolling so far with the L2iSE is that I have been fiddling with the DAC, inputs, etc. Roon via USB has always been a bit of a sticking point for me, so about a month or two ago I got an SPDIF cable from Triode Pete and have been using that as the main input into the DAC. I have put a Chromecast Audio puck into the optical input using a Toslink cable, and believe me it's pretty handy for parties, streaming stuff that doesn't come across Roon, easy listening for my wife, etc. Honestly the sound quality is pretty good.
Anyhoo I felt I needed to get the digital stuff sorted out before I started rolling in earnest. Only within the past week have I had the time to begin to think about this.
I also have been re-ripping every single CD my wife or I have ever purchased using DBPoweramp and a nice LG standalone ripper. This may be OCD, but I don't care. I want my whole library in flac, unmolested, etc to remove any suggestion of impropriety from file source. That way, using Roon, I can have my redbook flac file and compare the Tidal or Qobuz versions very easily. I can honestly say that when using an MQA enabled DAC I can hear a difference. It may be a loudness issue, but it is definitely different. Better? Who knows.
Anyway now that things are digitally how I want them, the real rolling begins. I will keep you all posted!
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Why can't it be an owners forum? If someone is willing to take it over and Vinnie doesn't mind; I'm sure JohnR wouldn't mind.
Agreed it can be but that ultimately is up to Vinnie (I think).
In the meantime the VR owners are welcome here to discuss their gear, tubes, and experiences.
Type at will!
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If anyone has the list of known tubes that work with the LIO or L2, please post here. I will also find in the archives the instructions for cleaning tube plugs and which volt settings go with which tubes.
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Trying to make a list of the tubes that have been known to work
2A3
45
300B
PX4 / PX25
101D / 205D
SV811 / SV572
CX301-A
DM me if I need to add some more, and if you know the plate voltage for the tube let me know that as well and I'll list it next to the tube.
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Info from Vinnie about cleaning socket pins:
I also want to mention something to all LIO DHT PRE owners:
Regarding tube pins and tube sockets, it is very important to make sure you are getting a good connection.
I have found DHT tubes have some level variation in the diameter of the tube pins (even from batch to batch of
the same tube... it's not *that* uncommon it seems).
So if you use a tube with a larger pin diameter, it can stretch the tube socket pins to accommodate the tube pin. However,
when you go back to use a tube with pin(s) of a smaller diameter, the connection might not be as good as it was previously
due to the stretched out socket pin.
No problem - here is what you do about it:
The Yammamoto Teflon UX4 tube sockets used in the DHT PRE have female pins with a slit in the middle, and
this allows you to push the two halves of the socket pin together (closing the diameter of the female socket and making
a better connection with the tube pin). See:
If you use a very small flat head screwdriver (e.g. google "jewlers screwdriver," or "eyeglass screwdriver"), you can
easily tighten them up if/as needed. Just be careful as you do each socket pin.
- Does this need to be done often?
Not necessarily, but if you are getting an intermittent connection (could be noise, popping, crackling, or any noise that was not there before) with a particular tube, doing what I mention above will take care of it. It's good to do this if you are tube rolling often, and as I mention in the DHT PRE Owner's Manual, you want to make sure the pins of the tubes that you install are clean *before* installing them! This is especially important with NOS tubes that might have dirt and oxidation on them. And you want to make sure your tube socket pins are also clean and free of dust and other contaminants.
A clean, secure connection is going to provide best results (best sound, lowest noise).
This adjusting of the socket pins and cleaning them and the tube pins are all part of "normal maintenance" that goes along with tube rolling. If you confirm a tight connection and don't tube roll often, you probably won't need to do this that often (if ever).
I hope this tip helps!
Vinnie
QuoteEdit
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Vinnies words:
All,
This weekend I was able to listen for a few hours each day to LIO DHT Integrated Amplifier fitted with Takatsuki TA-300B tubes DAC 2.0. I burned them in for a total of about 100 hours last week. I’m not sure if they will get even better (they might!). Ok, here we go:
Takatsuki TA-300B
I am excited to say that I found that the TA-300B fully realizes what I set out to achieve with the LIO DHT PRE design. It simply excels at delivering a vast, holographic soundstage beyond what I have heard with any other DHT at this point. It truly is an incredibly open and spacious sounding tube!
It also offers amazing nuance and layers of texture that lets you hear deep into the recording. A handful of other DHTs provide excellent detail, but TA-300B has a crystalline quality and seems to pull it all off without a hint of hardness or glare. It is hard to put it into words – and while I do not want to be cliché and just say, “there is this magic going on,” but it is something like that.
The TA-300B gives a healthy dose of richness to the sound, but not overly rich or “thick." Therefore, attributes such as speed and transient attack are fast and snappy and never rounded out or sluggish sounding. Notes on pianos, guitar strings, cymbals, etc. have awesome decay after the strike/pluck, and remarkable precision.
Vocals are simply natural, breathy, and tangible.
In terms of bass response, the TA-300B has clean, tight bass. It’s quick and very well defined, but I can see how one might prefer the bass of the KR PX-4, which seems to have a little more weight (see below), or an SV811-10 (even weightier). But listening to the TA-300B, I never once felt the bass was lacking in quantity.
So are these TA-300B’s “perfect?” It is hard to say for sure how others would find their sound – especially with a different speakers, rooms, positioning, etc. In the past when we had the DHT Tube Tour, the impressions of the same tubes in the LIO DHT PRE varied quite a bit from person to person, so I would imagine the same could happen here. For me, the TA-300B is the most perfect of any of the DHTs that I have heard so far with LIO DHT PRE. This comes at a high price (MSRP is $2500/pair).
TA-300B vs KR PX-4
So are the TA-300Bs ‘significantly’ better the KR PX-4? No, not significantly. Some might actually prefer the KR PX-4’s slightly weightier bass and richer tone (I love those qualities, too!). But in terms of clarity, openness, air, speed, texture, and delicacy, the TA-300B does these things like no other DHT that I have heard so far in this circuit topology. It is remarkable, and just to emphasize what I mentioned above, the TA-300B is not lacking at all in bass or tonal richness. It is only when you compare them side-by-side to the KR PX-4 that you notice it.
TA-300B is a quiet tube that has lower microphonics and self-noise than the KR PX-4.
So am I selling off my KR PX-4’s? No way! I love them and will continue to enjoy them and bring them to the shows. For under $1k/pair, I say they are the ones to beat. But from what I heard over this weekend, TA-300B now becomes my reference tube for LIO DHT PRE.
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Would these GE GL-800s work in the LIO or the L2?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/PAIR-2-Tube-800-GE-NIB-R%C3%B6hren-Direct-Heated-Triode-Sender%C3%B6hren-Last-Pair/310211309637
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Can anyone find the thread in the archives that had to do with the original DHT tube tour? I'm trying to compile that data into a single easy to find location (here:))
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https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=143241.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=143241.0)
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Great job and idea Matthew, putting all that info here.
You can add the KR T-100 to the list of usable tubes. I have a pair here for L2 preamp, seeing what I think..
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https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=143241.0 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=143241.0)
That one I found. Was the "Tube Tour" info buried in it?
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Great job and idea Matthew, putting all that info here.
You can add the KR T-100 to the list of usable tubes. I have a pair here for L2 preamp, seeing what I think..
What's the setting you're using?
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What's the setting you're using?
5V
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my VR thread was moved here....as well...I am going to see If I can open a LIO thread as my first one seems closed.
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my VR thread was moved here....as well...I am going to see If I can open a LIO thread as my first one seems closed.
Good luck with that. :banghead:
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Here's Vinnie's list of tested/approved tubes and settings:
Directly Heated Triode type Filament Voltage Setting
300B, 5V
2A3, 2.5V
45, 2.5V
PX4, 4V
T100 (KR Audio), 5V
SV811-10, 5V
101D / 205D, 4V
71A, 5V
50 (Elrog), 5V (one of Srajan's favorites for his L2 Preamp)
The LIO DHT PRE can run all the tubes above except for the KR Audio T100 (its base is too large in diameter to fit in the top cover hole).
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This is the link to the archived thread in which Vinnie explains tube socket maintenance:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153300.0
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Here's Vinnie's list of tested/approved tubes and settings:
Directly Heated Triode type Filament Voltage Setting
300B, 5V
2A3, 2.5V
45, 2.5V
PX4, 4V
T100 (KR Audio), 5V
SV811-10, 5V
101D / 205D, 4V
71A, 5V
50 (Elrog), 5V (one of Srajan's favorites for his L2 Preamp)
The LIO DHT PRE can run all the tubes above except for the KR Audio T100 (its base is too large in diameter to fit in the top cover hole).
Thanks for laying this out! I've got the LIO DHT with TAK 300B's. A glorious step up over the included stock tubes IMHO. I've been curious about the Elrog 50's (mainly bc of Srajan's endorsement) and the PX4's.
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I don't know if anyone wants to comment on these, the 2A3 and 300b production of these Chinese tubes confuses me somewhat. I have been told that the Shuguang 2A3 and 300b have been variable due to some unauthorized copies on the market. Then, Psvane now advertises a Chinese brand on their website called Linlai that make 2A3s and 300bs.
https://psvanetube.com/wordpress/store/products/category/tubes_by_linlai/
They ain't cheap $485 for the 2A3 and $795 for the 300b, so if anyone has taken the plunge please let me know.
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Can anyone find the thread in the archives that had to do with the original DHT tube tour? I'm trying to compile that data into a single easy to find location (here:))
Hi Matthew,
Is this the thread you're looking for: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=144292.msg1542296. I hope this helps.
Great effort on your part in reviving the interests on VR DHT Tubes in this forum. :banana piano:
Terence
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ding ding ding we have a winner! That was in fact the thread I was looking for. The first tube tour was successful, but we decided it would be too expensive with some of the L2 tubes. Important info nonetheless. Thanks.
And since there are really no places on this forum for a "LIO Owners" or "L2 owners," we can hopefully discuss all things Vinnie Rossi here, including LIO and L2, L2iSE, etc. DM me for more details or questions. Thanks!
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I of course remember and still use the EH 2A3 and the Svetlanas from this aforementioned tube tour, but recall I didn't really dig the Genelex Gold Lion, and recall nothing about the Cunningham CX301A. Does anyone use this tube?
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Would this tube work?
https://www.beyondeleven.com/Sovtek-T-6B4G-SOVT-MP/
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Is an 845 the same as a 45?
https://www.amazon.com/PSVANE-COSSOR-Vacuum-Aluminum-Warranty/dp/B07RY9MW4C/ref=sr_1_102?dchild=1&keywords=PSVANE&qid=1601213541&sr=8-102
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Here is the 845 (http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aai0201.htm).
And here is the 45 (http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aag0014.htm).
As you can see they are quite different. in an SET circuit the 45 produces 2 - 2.5 Watts at the output and the 845 typically produces 22 - 25 Watts. Anode voltage is a mere 275 on the 45 but 1250 on the 845. Thankfully the sockets are different too as you wouldn't want to try a 45 in a 845 circuit.
Hope this helps.
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Here is the 845 (http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aai0201.htm).
And here is the 45 (http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aag0014.htm).
As you can see they are quite different. in an SET circuit the 45 produces 2 - 2.5 Watts at the output and the 845 typically produces 22 - 25 Watts. Anode voltage is a mere 275 on the 45 but 1250 on the 845. Thankfully the sockets are different too as you wouldn't want to try a 45 in a 845 circuit.
Hope this helps.
Dude that website is a godsend. Thanks for the links. :)
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Your welcome, check out the stickies at the home page for the Tube-O-Phile Circle for lots more info.
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I spoke with the reps at KR Audio, and on the website it initially looked like they no longer made the Riccardo Kron limited edition PX4, they provided me with the link:
https://shop.best300b.com/products/kr-p ... eries-pair
here are the links to the 300bs etc:
https://shop.best300b.com/collections/riccardo-kron-limited-series
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Thanks for laying this out! I've got the LIO DHT with TAK 300B's. A glorious step up over the included stock tubes IMHO. I've been curious about the Elrog 50's (mainly bc of Srajan's endorsement) and the PX4's.
Is the Elrog 50 different from the Elrog 300b? I see a tube on their site called "ER50" but didn't know if that is what Srajan was reviewing.
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Does Nagra make their own 300b tubes or are they made for them?
https://www.nagraaudio.com/product/nagra-tube-kits/
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Hey Matthew,
Do you wanna trade/swap my T-100’s for your RK series PX4’s for a week or something? The T-100 was always stated as being a cleaner sounding PX4, with the same bass character. I’m curious how the two compare to each other... PM me again if ya want or if interested.
Jason
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Hello, I'm Rick & new to the Circle. I have a LIO integrated amp. At Vinnie's recommendation, I've tried the Mullard CV2492 & the MiniWatt Dario E188CC. I find the Mullards too warm & the MiniWatt much better on the top end, more detail, more contrast & more punch. My favorite tube so far. Has anyone else had experience with tubes they would recommend for the LIO?
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Hey Matthew,
Do you wanna trade/swap my T-100’s for your RK series PX4’s for a week or something? The T-100 was always stated as being a cleaner sounding PX4, with the same bass character. I’m curious how the two compare to each other... PM me again if ya want or if interested.
Jason
That might work. I don't want to do it right this second b/c the PX4s are still burning in, but maybe in a month or two? I'm game for that.
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That might work. I don't want to do it right this second b/c the PX4s are still burning in, but maybe in a month or two? I'm game for that.
Sounds good! We can chat when you're ready... Vinnie (and others) said 250 hours should be good. I did that on the T-100’s but will put more on them if preferred. I’m currently back to the TAK’s in the L2 pre and since redoing the room acoustics I’m no longer getting that upper-mid dip from the TAK’s I thought I was experiencing... Cool difference in presentation between these two.
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Can someone tell me if the Mesh Tube Covers for the L2iSE are tall enough and would work with the DHT Lio? Thanks
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Can someone tell me if the Mesh Tube Covers for the L2iSE are tall enough and would work with the DHT Lio? Thanks
Well, not having both units on hand, I can tell you that they are certainly tall enough, but might be too wide to get down into the LIO. I'll measure the mesh tube covers in the AM and post. Then you can see if it would work.
I bet you can find a "Faraday Cage" at Home Depot that would work without wasting too much time.
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Hi all, so happy I found this thread, My VRL2iSE just arrived and i’m extremely pleased. Looking forward to finding just the right tubes to match my tastes and speakers, please keep posting your choices and opinions of what you are trying out, the information is greatly appreciated!
Nick
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Far from it. The ER50 is actually a 7V tube but runs perfectly off Vinnie's 5V setting. As I said elsewhere, its sound is more like a 'super' 45 so faster, more lit up and energetic than all the 300B I have or have heard. The Takatsuki 300B was the quickest most airy and resolved 300B I tried but I no longer had it when the ER50 arrived so I could never compare the two directly. The closest thing to the Elrog ER50 I have is a WE VT52.
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Can someone tell me if the Mesh Tube Covers for the L2iSE are tall enough and would work with the DHT Lio? Thanks
This would be a question for Vinnie, because in the L2 series, the metal plate that the the tube covers rest on is ‘active’ somehow; it’s connected to the ground or something like that, which is what provides the covers their active usefulness. So I’m unsure if the tube covers, just sitting on the top cover of LIO, would do what they do in an L2.
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Can someone tell me if the Mesh Tube Covers for the L2iSE are tall enough and would work with the DHT Lio? Thanks
Hi bg1968,
A couple of years ago, I did asked Vinnie on the Mesh Tube Covers and he replied:
"Those mesh covers will not work with DHT PRE. They are designed so the bottom edge is conductive, and touches a metal disc that is mounted
around the tube socket. That disc is connected to AC GND, so the noise does not go to the tube.
LIO does not have this type of AC GND connection (as the input to LIO is DC), so it will not be as effective. And the LIO top cover is anodized aluminum, so
it is not electrically conductive because the thin layer of anodize is an insulator."
I hope these help.
Terence
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Hello, I'm Rick & new to the Circle. I have a LIO integrated amp. At Vinnie's recommendation, I've tried the Mullard CV2492 & the MiniWatt Dario E188CC. I find the Mullards too warm & the MiniWatt much better on the top end, more detail, more contrast & more punch. My favorite tube so far. Has anyone else had experience with tubes they would recommend for the LIO?
I have used the Genalex Gold Lion 6922's in mine but my favorite now is the green label Amperex 7308's.The Gold Lions with gold pins are an easy find and sold in lots of places. It is a great all around tube and I still have 4 of them in my Manley Chinook phono stage.The Amperex 7308's green labels with gold pins are around as well. A bit warmer than the Genalex but just as detailed.
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I have used the Genalex Gold Lion 6922's in mine but my favorite now is the green label Amperex 7308's.The Gold Lions with gold pins are an easy find and sold in lots of places. It is a great all around tube and I still have 4 of them in my Manley Chinook phono stage.The Amperex 7308's green labels with gold pins are around as well. A bit warmer than the Genalex but just as detailed.
I'm all about trying these tubes now! Variety is the spice of life. Thanks for the recommendation. :guitar: :guitar: :guitar:
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Does anyone have the Pelican case or can give me the dimensions?
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Should the 6922 tube talk be moved to the LIO thread? This is the DHT tube talk thread. 6922 type is not a 4 pin DHT..
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true but at least fellow VR product owners are staying in touch...
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Western Electric 300B’s have arrived for L2i-SE. Still burning them in. Initial impressions; not as lush or warm as the EH, much “airier” Top end. Midrange is more articulated and not as warm, bottom end is thinner but tighter. Currently running ROON>Innuos zenith mk3>Line Magnetic-32 w/stock tubes>VR LS2i-se>Omega super6 Alnico . I am really enjoying the new tubes and look forward to see what the next couple of hundred hours bring out of them.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=218335)