AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => All Solid State => Topic started by: megabigeye on 21 Apr 2014, 04:05 am
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Hi AudioCirclers, and happy Patriot's Day!
You all seem like a friendlier and more helpful lot than at some other HiFi sites, so I'm looking forward to you being able to help me out. My most recent system has consisted of a NuForce HDP working as preamp/DAC, Dayton DTA-100a, JohnBlue JB3 speakers, and BIC V1020 sub. The DTA-100a recently bit the dust. I also used to have a KingRex T20 which also died. I really enjoyed the sound of the Dayton (and the KingRex, but I didn't get to use it nearly as much) in my system, especially for the price, but I'd really like a step up in build quality and reliability. I also figure I really wouldn't mind a step up in sound as well.
My price limit is about $500USD and I think I'm more interested in power amps than I am in integrateds, simply for the simplification of how many volume pots I and my girlfriend have to fiddle with. Though there are also a few integrateds I'm interested in if I can be convinced of their superiority. In other words, I'm not really sold one way or the other, but simpler seems like it would be nicer.
I also should mention that the input limit on the JB3s is only 30W, and I'm a little worried that too much power is going to fry them. I know some people disagree, but I remain uncertain (convince me!). One last constraint is that I don't have a huge amount of space.
So here's what I've been looking at so far (in no particular order)...
Topping TP60.
I think I'm mostly interested in this one because it's inexpensive and has those two pretty toroids. And it's Class-T. Though I'm wary of it because it seems like it could be of questionable reliability/quality. I'd really rather not have to replace it again in two years. I'm also a little skeptical of connecting a T-Class amp to a sub via speaker level, since allegedly it can short the amp.
Virtue One.3
The earlier Virtues really piqued my interest a few years ago, but they were a bit out of my price range on my last couple of go-rounds. I'll assume that the sound and build qualities are a step up from my Dayton, but are they really worth more than four times the cost (5.5 times the cost with upgraded PSU)? It has a sub output, which I like the looks of, but the high pass filter is only set at 80hz. I keep my crossover set at about 110hz, I think. Would that be a problem? Also, reliability?
Emotiva UPA-200
Class A/B is something I'm not so familiar with and I'm uncertain if I'd like it. Which isn't to say that it's something that I wouldn't be able to get used to. Also, would that amount of power fry my dainty little speakers? Further more, the volume control on the HDP isn't the best and I'd be afraid that too much power wouldn't give me much wiggle room for finding a comfortable level. Also, physical size might be a bit of a problem, though I might be able to figure something out. The price sure is right, though.
NuForce STA-100
The price is probably too high on this one. I might be able to swing it if somebody convinced me that it's absolutely the best choice. Also, the power issue has me slightly worried. Otherwise I really like the looks of it (literally. I really love the way it looks.).
Parasound Zamp
The price is right. The power is right. The size it right. It gets stellar reviews from professionals. For some reason there is very little user feedback about this amp. Also, it's Class A/B. And it's name sounds dumb (or cute, I guess). I also think this is something that I could potentially audition and buy locally.
NAD D 3020
This is a strange and intriguing option. If I went with something like this I could forgo the HDP altogether, although I really enjoy its sound and headphone capability. I know NAD makes quality pieces, but I'm a little skeptical that so many features at so low a price means lowered quality throughout. I'd be willing to bet I could find this locally, too.
Please, please, please help me make a decision! Also, if there are any other great options that I'm missing, I'd appreciate knowing about them (so that I can further confuse myself). Also, this whole post is sort of posed as a question; if I've got anything wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me.
...And thanks in advance for any input you have!! (and apologies for such a long-winded first post)
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Welcome aboard!
Do you need analog inputs or headphone outputs in your system?
When amps are pushed too hard (wattage/low impedance) they distort. One of the basic forms of distortion in called clipping. If you think of a sine wave (smooth wave form seen on oscilloscopes) the height of the wave represents the peaks (tops and bottoms) of the signal. Sound (music) is nothing more than a collection of pressure waves shaped like sine waves. In the case of a loudspeaker it is caused by the in and out movement of the driver(s) that copy that collection of sine waves as driven by the amp. So the amp creates sine waves. When the amp is forced beyond it's distortion free limit the tops and bottoms of the signal are clipped off (suddenly flattened). Note that tube amps (and some solid state like NAD) "soft" clip (round off the edges of the clip) which helps the speaker handle the clip. The loudspeaker is trying to copy the signal and has to make an instant stop/start which produced heat (the energy has no other place to go). This melts the driver voice coils. This is the danger of undersized amps.
As a collection of sine waves music has dynamic peaks (that can require 10 - 400 times the average power being used) but only sound 2 - 5 times as loud (the difference is due to the logarithmic relationship between power and sound). Oversized amps can fry drivers but it's easier because of this power/sound relationship and the instantaneous nature of the musical peaks to damage speakers from too little rather than too much power. I'm of the opinion that you want to size the amp to maintain a commending grip on the speaker (because of this clean/clipped power issue and to improve overall sonic resolution), so I use 100 watts for my speakers rated 27 watts continuous/80 watts peaks. Keep in mind that during hard partying all bets are off.
The logarithmic relationship of amps means 1 watt = 0 dB of gain, 2 watts = 3 dB of gain, 4 watts = 6 dB of gain, 5 watts = 7 dB of gain, 8 watts = 9 dB of gain, 10 watts = 10 dB of gain, 20 watts = 13 dB of gain, 40 watts = 16 dB of gain, 100 watts = 20 dB of gain, 1,000 watts = 30 dB of gain. Note that 3 dB produces a 'half again' louder sound. So 20 watts versus 40 watts isn't a huge difference to your speakers or you. With speakers rated at 30 watts, I'd shop for 20 - 50 watts.
Another small/quality amp in your wattage/price range is the TBI amp (see the low wattage circle below).
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These class d amps created quite a stir over the past several years as being a great bang for the buck. Might even be one in classifieds for cheap. They were only diy but started making them in completed cases also.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=76400.0
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Because you want to use a sub, I would recommend staying with a pre-amp. Split the pre-amp's output to the power amp (or integrated) and sub. Or buy an integrated that has pre-outs. Then you don't need to worry about the amp being common ground, which is essential if you connect the sub using speaker level inputs. If the amp isn't common ground & you connect with speaker level inputs, it may have a rather short life. As far as I know, T-amps are not common ground & should never be connected to the sub's speaker level inputs. Now you can connect an amp's speaker level output to a sub's line level inputs if you have a special cable that converts the speaker level outputs to a line level input, but that's a tale for another day.
Cheers, Jim
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Because you want to use a sub, I would recommend staying with a pre-amp. Split the pre-amp's output to the power amp and sub.
How does one do that?
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Virtue One.3
The earlier Virtues really piqued my interest a few years ago, but they were a bit out of my price range on my last couple of go-rounds. I'll assume that the sound and build qualities are a step up from my Dayton, but are they really worth more than four times the cost (5.5 times the cost with upgraded PSU)? It has a sub output, which I like the looks of, but the high pass filter is only set at 80hz. I keep my crossover set at about 110hz, I think. Would that be a problem? Also, reliability?
Emotiva UPA-200
Class A/B is something I'm not so familiar with and I'm uncertain if I'd like it. Which isn't to say that it's something that I wouldn't be able to get used to. Also, would that amount of power fry my dainty little speakers? Further more, the volume control on the HDP isn't the best and I'd be afraid that too much power wouldn't give me much wiggle room for finding a comfortable level. Also, physical size might be a bit of a problem, though I might be able to figure something out. The price sure is right, though.
I can give you feedback on the UPA-200/Virtue/DTA-100a. I have had the UPA-200, and Virtue Sensation and two.2 amps, and have the DTA-100 in my office system.
The UPA-200 is a nice budget amp, but I do think that is too much power if you have sensitive speakers.
The Virtue amps do sound great for the money. My current setup has the two.2, using the 80Hz bypass to feed a powered sub. The two.2 has plenty of power for my fairly insensitive 4-ohm speakers, so you should be fine there. I do have an upgraded power supply for the two.2, and I will say that the difference between the stock and upgraded supply is not that significant when using the sub output. I think using the Virtue full range would benefit from the upgraded power supply. But with an external sub, and sensitive speakers, I wouldn't automatically opt for an upgraded power supply at this time. You can always add one later. And yes, the Virtue amps are definitely worth the upgrade from the DTA-100a.
You might look for used options on Virtue amps. With the one.3s out, there may be used one.2 and two.2s on the market.
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I would like to suggest some other choice you could make. Find an older Marantz receiver. You could find one in good to minty shape. Like the 2230, 2240, 2270 or 2280 series. Great build quality and great power!! I have mint 2235, and it would drive your speakers beautifully.
There are a few 2250's on Ebay that are around your budget.
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My vote roughly in this order would be :
1. NAD D3020
2. Marantz PM 6004 ($350 @ accessories4less)
3. Teac AH-01 ($250 @ accessories4less)
Only digital inputs :
1. NuForce DDA-100 (demo for sale $483 @ audio advisor)
2. Wadia 151 power DAC ($500 @ music direct)
In the sub $500 range the NAD seems to be the one to beat.
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Wow! What a great welcome! I was hoping for just one or two replies over the course of a couple of day, so this is great!
JLM,
I've read about some of that before, but you've got a very succinct and clear way of phrasing things. Very helpful. So do you think I could get away with more power (like 100W+ , like the Emotiva and NuForce offer, or even 80W like the Virtue), or do you think I should stick closer to the 20W-50W range? I'll have to look more into that TBI amp, as well. Very attractive.
And yes, I need analog inputs, as I have a turntable too. I'd like to keep a headphone out as an option, though I don't use my headphones as much as I used to. I guess it wouldn't kill me if there was an otherwise great amp that didn't have a headphone stage.
Thanks again for your input!
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These class d amps created quite a stir over the past several years as being a great bang for the buck. Might even be one in classifieds for cheap. They were only diy but started making them in completed cases also.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=76400.0
Yeah, I saw that thread and I am a bit intrigued by DIY, but also a little afraid of it... Though I guess the ready made ones aren't technically DIY. How is the quality?
I think I also saw that you had a couple of them up for sale, didn't you?
I also had my eye on some TK2050 boards from Sure and HiFiMeDIY. Again intriguing, but I imagine myself getting it, hooking it up just to "test" it and then never putting it in a case. I have a CMoyBB, completely unassembled, that's been sitting on my desk since Christmas. Maybe one day, but I don't think this is the day.
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Because you want to use a sub, I would recommend staying with a pre-amp. Split the pre-amp's output to the power amp (or integrated) and sub.
Yeah, this is what I was thinking and that's actually how NuForce recommends hooking up a sub to the HDP.
Or buy an integrated that has pre-outs. Then you don't need to worry about the amp being common ground, which is essential if you connect the sub using speaker level inputs. If the amp isn't common ground & you connect with speaker level inputs, it may have a rather short life. As far as I know, T-amps are not common ground & should never be connected to the sub's speaker level inputs.
I had the DTA-100a hooked up at speaker level which I read you weren't supposed to do, but it seemed to work so I did it. I figured if it was going to short the amp that it would be sudden. Do you think this could have caused a slow death?
Now you can connect an amp's speaker level output to a sub's line level inputs if you have a special cable that converts the speaker level outputs to a line level input, but that's a tale for another day.
Cheers, Jim
Do you just need a cable something like this (http://www.iec.net/Images/jpeg/L7422-01.jpg)? That seems simple enough.
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I can give you feedback on the UPA-200/Virtue/DTA-100a. I have had the UPA-200, and Virtue Sensation and two.2 amps, and have the DTA-100 in my office system.
The UPA-200 is a nice budget amp, but I do think that is too much power if you have sensitive speakers.
Can you quantify "sensitive?" The JB3s are rated as 87dB/W/m. I wouldn't have thought that was particularly sensitive, but what do I know?
The Virtue amps do sound great for the money. My current setup has the two.2, using the 80Hz bypass to feed a powered sub. The two.2 has plenty of power for my fairly insensitive 4-ohm speakers, so you should be fine there. I do have an upgraded power supply for the two.2, and I will say that the difference between the stock and upgraded supply is not that significant when using the sub output. I think using the Virtue full range would benefit from the upgraded power supply. But with an external sub, and sensitive speakers, I wouldn't automatically opt for an upgraded power supply at this time. You can always add one later. And yes, the Virtue amps are definitely worth the upgrade from the DTA-100a.
Does the sub-out only do 80hz and below? 'Cause that wouldn't work for me. I know there are mods to change the high pass filter, but... Yikes. I'd be scared I'd fry something.
Do you think it would work with a preamp like my HDP? With the One.3 or one of the previous models I could just leave the volume up when I power on/off. I don't know if that's ideal since it has a preamp stage. The One.3 is tempting if a pre works.
You might look for used options on Virtue amps. With the one.3s out, there may be used one.2 and two.2s on the market.
I've looked a little (here, AudioGon, ebay, head-fi). Nothing yet.
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My vote roughly in this order would be :
1. NAD D3020
2. Marantz PM 6004 ($350 @ accessories4less)
3. Teac AH-01 ($250 @ accessories4less)
Only digital inputs :
1. NuForce DDA-100 (demo for sale $483 @ audio advisor)
2. Wadia 151 power DAC ($500 @ music direct)
In the sub $500 range the NAD seems to be the one to beat.
Yeah, I just saw the NAD last night before I posted, so I didn't have much time to research it. If it's as great as you say I'll have to look more.
I also remember reading about the Marantz (or maybe it was the PM5004?) a while ago and thinking it looked impressive. I'll revisit that one, too.
The Teac looks okay, but seems like the NAD just one-ups it for a similar price.
And I'd need an analog input, so the NuForce and Wadia are out of the picture.
I would like to suggest some other choice you could make. Find an older Marantz receiver. You could find one in good to minty shape. Like the 2230, 2240, 2270 or 2280 series. Great build quality and great power!! I have mint 2235, and it would drive your speakers beautifully.
There are a few 2250's on Ebay that are around your budget.
(I wish I'd realized I could multi-quote before! Whoops!)
Those things are huge and gorgeous! And huge! I don't think I have enough room for that, plus I'd like to stay away from the vintage route and the can of worms it opens up. Too many more options!
Ugh. I'm feeling a bit reply-happy, so I think this will be my last post for the night. Thanks again to everybody for all of your help, friendliness and replies! Sincerely!
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100 watts per channel is probably overkill for the JB3's. For your system I'd invest more into quality rather than quantity.
The other half of the wattage/dB equation to keep in mind is how loud you actually listen. As a happy owner of JB3's I doubt you're a headbanger. As a lover of single driver designs myself, I've found most are used for small ensemble stuff, not heavy/bombastic genres. And because of my love (which traditionally correlates towards small tube amps, I also own a sound pressure meter as that camp fixates on wattage/efficiency. What I've found is that most audiophiles over estimate the average dB they listen to but under estimate the peaks. At most audiofests the rooms are running roughly 75 - 85 dB, which is too loud to comfortably carry on a conversation and if constant could cost your lease.
So 80 dB with JB3 in an "average" room represents about 0.1 watts and you probably are listening at lower levels than that, which explains the old audio adage that "If the first watt sucks, why continue". OTOH 30 watts would be around 102 dB. The difference is 22 dB (quite workable). Music peaks are 25 dB for symphonic and 10 dB (which sounds twice as loud) for jazz/rock above 'average'. But the peaks are 105 dB for symphonic and jazz versus 110 dB for rock, so (surprise) the JB3's aren't the final solution for full/accurate musical reproduction of all musical types.
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Yeah, I saw that thread and I am a bit intrigued by DIY, but also a little afraid of it... Though I guess the ready made ones aren't technically DIY. How is the quality?
I think I also saw that you had a couple of them up for sale, didn't you?
I also had my eye on some TK2050 boards from Sure and HiFiMeDIY. Again intriguing, but I imagine myself getting it, hooking it up just to "test" it and then never putting it in a case. I have a CMoyBB, completely unassembled, that's been sitting on my desk since Christmas. Maybe one day, but I don't think this is the day.
The quality for sub $500 amplifier is off the charts as 180 page thread attests. I have a diy version slightly modded with better quality power supply caps and increased capacitance which took it up several more notches. A lot of guys replaced some expensive amps with these diy modules, for me the strong point is resolution. Mine isnt for sale, but if it was it would be to move up to the class d Ncore amps. Good luck with the search, if you are in Austin you can take it for a spin in your system. :)
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<<<I had the DTA-100a hooked up at speaker level which I read you weren't supposed to do, but it seemed to work so I did it. I figured if it was going to short the amp that it would be sudden. Do you think this could have caused a slow death?>>>
Hard to tell w/o a postmortem, however, if I had to bet money on it: I would guess that the speaker level connection to the sub was a significant factor in the amp's short life.
As for the cable: NO, NO, NO!!!! All that cable will do is blow up both the amp & the sub. You need a special cable which uses resistors to isolate & reduce the high signal levels on all the connections. In a class T amp, I have been told that both positive and negative leads are 'hot'.
Cheers, Jim
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I wouldn't hesitate to get a Virtue amp if it suits your requirements. Seth, Jason T, and crew are amazing people who truly care that you are happy with your purchase. Service after the sale is through the roof excellent.
But, given your speakers, I'd be inclined to give one of these a try via Amazon also. This amp has rceived pretty much universal praise, if you don't need a lot of power (and don't need a bunch of inputs/outputs)......and even then, apparently this little amp has more guts than the specs indicate. We all know Amazon has a liberal return policy, which is nice too.
http://www.amazon.com/APPJ-PA0901A-6P14-Amplifier-Silver/dp/B00APC0VXY
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Look at the Musical Paradise MP 301-MK3. It's under $400.00
http://www.musicalparadise.ca/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=54
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And just to muddy the waters with another suggestion, you might want to look at Clones Audio...they make a power amp version of their highly regarded 25i integrated. Both try to replicate the original 47Labs Gaincard as closely as possible, hence the company name. Been getting great press...
http://www.clonesaudio.com/#!amp/clj5
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<<<I had the DTA-100a hooked up at speaker level which I read you weren't supposed to do, but it seemed to work so I did it. I figured if it was going to short the amp that it would be sudden. Do you think this could have caused a slow death?>>>
Hard to tell w/o a postmortem, however, if I had to bet money on it: I would guess that the speaker level connection to the sub was a significant factor in the amp's short life.
Yeah, this was sort of my intuition. That and overall poor quality. I don't know if you've ever seen those old pictures (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/163926-got-my-parts-express-dta-100-amp-today.html) of the internals of the DTA-100, but mine is actually worse.
As for the cable: NO, NO, NO!!!! All that cable will do is blow up both the amp & the sub. You need a special cable which uses resistors to isolate & reduce the high signal levels on all the connections. In a class T amp, I have been told that both positive and negative leads are 'hot'.
Cheers, Jim
Don't worry, I wasn't going to do anything drastic. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something simple.
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Look at the Musical Paradise MP 301-MK3. It's under $400.00
http://www.musicalparadise.ca/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=54
I wouldn't hesitate to get a Virtue amp if it suits your requirements. Seth, Jason T, and crew are amazing people who truly care that you are happy with your purchase. Service after the sale is through the roof excellent.
But, given your speakers, I'd be inclined to give one of these a try via Amazon also. This amp has rceived pretty much universal praise, if you don't need a lot of power (and don't need a bunch of inputs/outputs)......and even then, apparently this little amp has more guts than the specs indicate. We all know Amazon has a liberal return policy, which is nice too.
http://www.amazon.com/APPJ-PA0901A-6P14-Amplifier-Silver/dp/B00APC0VXY
I'd like to try tubes some time, but I think I'm going to stick with solid state for now. Maybe some day when I have more money for a second system. I love the colors of the APPJ amp, though.
And just to muddy the waters with another suggestion, you might want to look at Clones Audio...they make a power amp version of their highly regarded 25i integrated. Both try to replicate the original 47Labs Gaincard as closely as possible, hence the company name. Been getting great press...
http://www.clonesaudio.com/#!amp/clj5
I've also been intrigued by GainClones in the past, but those are a bit out of my price range with the current exchange rate.
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Be careful of DIY chip amps (Gainclones). I owned a very nice pair of 40 watt mono blocks, but home evaluated one that had horrible 60 Hz hum (even with power supply in a separate cabinet) and it picked up a local FM radio station as a constant background.
That MP 301 looks interesting but is only 5 wpc (a flea amp). The APPJ PA0901A is cute but has even lower output. You'd want very high efficiency (98 dB/w/m or higher) speakers to mate with either of these amps (which can be very dynamic but will reveal all your system weaknesses).
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Part of the reason I don't want DIY at the moment (other than not having much DIY skill, of course) is that I want something that I can set up and have running, not something that I have to fiddle with and figure out before it's just right.
Same goes for tubes. And, yeah, I realize those tube amps are low power. I figure if I ever want to try tubes I'll probably go with a headphone amp or pre, maybe something like a BottleHead Quickie or Crack.
Anyway.
I think I've narrowed down my choices to two: The NAD or the Virtue. I think I'm leaning a bit toward the Virtue, but then I start thinking... And that's never a good idea.
Virtue One.3
Pros:
- A sound I'm 99.9% certain I'll love
- $100 less than NAD
- I get to keep using my HDP, which I like a lot (which I've now set up with my KingRex PSU... Maybe there's a slightly noticeable difference?)
- More power means I'd have more options if I ever want to upgrade my speakers
Cons:
- No remote
- It'll be a little more fiddly to set up and use.
- That damned bright blue LED!
Questions/uncertainties:
- Is using an integrated with an external preamp suboptimal? Reading between the lines on this thread, I'll guess that it doesn't really matter so much, but I'd like to know for certain. I also read that you shouldn't leave the volume turned up when turning the amp on and off, but this is something I'd likely want to do. Is this a real risk?
- It has an 80Hz high pass filter... I'm assuming that means that only frequencies above 80Hz go to the main speakers and that full spectrum goes to the sub, not just below 80Hz? Meaning that I use my sub's crossover? Also, is the high pass filter only activated when a sub is connected?
- Is it going to be too much power? I'd plan on keeping the One.3's volume set at 2/3 or less and just using the HDP's volume control. Alternately, NuForce's recommendation is that I leave the HDP's volume pot at 2 o'clock or lower and use the Virtue's pot instead.
- Is $400 too much for a little amp with so few features? Does it cost so much simply because it's a smaller company with smaller production runs? The NAD is only a hundred bucks more but packs in a ton more features and allegedly has great sound.
- Somewhat uncertain about the reliability of Virtue. It's relatively new and definitely a boutique company.
NAD D 3020:
Pros:
- More features! I'd be able to eliminate a component from the signal path and it'd be less fiddly.
- Remote
- Sweet spot for power for current setup.
- NAD is a company with a history, and one of reliability and quality, at that.
Cons:
- $100 more than Virtue
- No use or place for my HDP. Why would I want to replace something that I know I like?
- Maybe it's just the pictures, but I'm honestly not a fan of the way it looks.
- I'm also not a fan of touch sensitive "buttons." I much prefer mechanical.
Questions/uncertainties:
- Is $500 too little for something with so many features? I'm a little bit afraid that the reason it costs so little is because they're cutting corners and skimping. It costs only $50 more than my HDP and has all the same features (minus preamp out), plus a remote, Bluetooth, and speaker outputs. Seems like an obvious choice, but is it really as nice?
- Same question as Virtue about sub output.
Asides:
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I would get the NAD 316BEE http://nadelectronics.com/products/hifi-amplifiers/C-316BEE-Stereo-Integrated-Amplifier (http://nadelectronics.com/products/hifi-amplifiers/C-316BEE-Stereo-Integrated-Amplifier)
I bought the older version, the 315BEE for my Mom a few years ago and she loves it. I had it over here for a week or so before I delivered it to her house. I thought it was a very good sounding amp for the money, and it was hardly embarrassed to be in my set up which is way overpriced for the little NAD. It is a great value for the price.
It has plenty of power (and not too much) for your speakers, plus a tape out, plus a cheap but effective remote control if you need remote. It will probably outlast all of your other choices too. Check it out.
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Both good choices...
Virtue: One pro is you'd be supporting an Audio Circle (and domestic) vendor. Don't worry about the volume controls just set the two volumes at whatever works best for you. Don't worry about which has more power (remember that the difference between 30 and 50 watts is only 3 dB - half again as loud). Boutique companies have their charms, but hard for them to keep up with fast moving technology (for example, except for Empirical all the cottage industry DACs are gone and Empirical is high end stuff and yet doesn't offer DSD).
NAD features "soft clipping" to provide some protection from over driving the amp, the extra money could easily be saved from sale of the HDP and not having to buy a pair of interconnects. The 80 Hz sub crossover probably sends below 80 Hz to the sub and above to the mains, so you wouldn't use the sub crossover, but try to check that out to be sure (if they really matters to you). Yes NAD has been around for decades, so parts should be around for a relatively long time. And you'd be saving two cabinets. The build quality of the NAD receiver I had in the 90's was fine (not like some expensive gear that is probably designed to survive being thrown out the 2nd floor window). The technical bits of the D3020 is largely a result of trickle down from their high end stuff that adds lots of value if you can live with yesterday's technology.
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Is using an integrated with an external preamp suboptimal? Reading between the lines on this thread, I'll guess that it doesn't really matter so much, but I'd like to know for certain. I also read that you shouldn't leave the volume turned up when turning the amp on and off, but this is something I'd likely want to do. Is this a real risk?
Don't know about the one.3 but I'm fairly sure the one.2 has a jumper so you can bypass the volume pot. Never heard about or noticed the volume on power up/down issue.
It has an 80Hz high pass filter... I'm assuming that means that only frequencies above 80Hz go to the main speakers and that full spectrum goes to the sub, not just below 80Hz? Meaning that I use my sub's crossover? Also, is the high pass filter only activated when a sub is connected?
This is done with a jumper. It makes the signal to the internal amp high passed. The sub output (in the one.2 don't know about the one.3) has no low pass filter, you use the filter in your sub.
Somewhat uncertain about the reliability of Virtue. It's relatively new and definitely a boutique company.
Virtue has been around for a few years now... (one.3 is the third generation of the amp). There are plenty of units around and you don't hear about issues much.
If it's of interest I have a one.2 that I don't use much and can sell.
EDIT. here the one.2 manual, page 10 shows the jumpers: http://www.wihifi.com/virtuemanual/Virtue%20ONE.2%20TWO.2%20User%20Manual.pdf
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I'm about this close [holds up fingers an inch apart] to splurging on the One.3, but I have one last (for now) simple (potentially stupid) question:
So, if the One.3 has a high pass filter set at 80Hz and I keep my sub set at 110Hz, is that going to make a noticeable problem? I mean, I know that having too high a frequency from your sub can affect sound stage/localization, but does having too low a frequency coming from your speakers have a negative impact?
Thanks!
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In case anybody is wondering, I ended up getting the One.3 last night. I think I'll be glad I did, I'm enjoying the experience already: Seth personally called me minutes (Literally! Minutes!) after I confirmed my order to make sure I actually wanted the red and I decided on the white instead. I worry a little bit about such a small company being able to handle support when the going gets rough, but with outgoing service like that my worries are somewhat allayed. That's the kind of experience I really like.
Anyway, what I really want to say is THANK YOU to everybody for all the input and advice!! And especially VERY DEEPEST THANKS TO JLM, your patience, answers to my questions, and your input were invaluable. Again, many, many thanks!!
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I think that is a wise choice for you. Hope you enjoy it!
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Thanks! I already am!
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That's awesome. Seth and team Virtue are second to none. Glad you've already experienced this for yourself.