[LarBO]

I've been using a single Titan II LE for some time and its served its purpose well.  However, I'm now needing to cross it fairly high and expect I might gain by having stereo subs.  However, my room is relatively small (15' x 16', though some of the walls open into other rooms, and the ceiling is slanted which helps with the poor dimensions).  Unfortunately, it's not just the listening room but also the living room and there's not really sufficient space for another Titan.  So I'm considering going with two Force XLs.

After that long lead-in, here's the question.  If the single Titan II LE has provided sufficient volume and punch in my room for 2-channel audio, will two Forces provide a comparable amount of low end support?

Thanks for all opinions!

[Lkdog]

Try room treatment first-bass traps in corners if possible. Bass traps actually increase bass as they stop cancellations.
That is fairly small room and the Titan II should handle it well unless the room is really open ended on a couple sides and is really
not its own room at all.

[Mike Dzurko]

I've been using a single Titan II LE for some time and its served its purpose well.  However, I'm now needing to cross it fairly high and expect I might gain by having stereo subs.  However, my room is relatively small (15' x 16', though some of the walls open into other rooms, and the ceiling is slanted which helps with the poor dimensions).  Unfortunately, it's not just the listening room but also the living room and there's not really sufficient space for another Titan.  So I'm considering going with two Force XLs.

After that long lead-in, here's the question.  If the single Titan II LE has provided sufficient volume and punch in my room for 2-channel audio, will two Forces provide a comparable amount of low end support?

Thanks for all opinions!

How high do you need to crossover?

[LarBO]

Mike, right now I seem to get the best integration crossing at about 80-85 Hz.  This is based on listening trials and on using the test tracks on one of the Stereophile discs along with a RatShack meter.  I'm using a pair of Merlin VSM-MMs run full range, and they're powered by a CTC BBQ (similar to the Parasound JC-1s).  I've worked on setup configuration with Bobby's help (e.g. Mr. Merlin), and this is about the best bass response I get in my room with my system.  If I were able to sit further back from the speakers I understand the Merlins give a much better perceived bass response.  Also, before I offend any Merlin folks (I love 'em too, by the way) there is in fact signal being given out below 80 Hz from the Merlins.  It simply drops off too quickly in my room with my system.

As I understand it, when crossed that high having stereo subs can do much for increasing the perceived "space" in recordings, even if the lowest bass is not itself in a stereo image.  Moreover, I've heard/read that harmonics from the lower registers can reinforce midrange frequencies, adding to their realism and impact.  Do you agree Mike?

Lkdog, I agree that room treatments help A LOT.  I am using an 18" dia. 22" tall bass trap in the corner behind the Titan, and as you noted I have found that it not only improves the quality of the bass control in the room, but gives the perception of "more" bass.  I would like to increase the treatments to the room.  But did I mention that it's a living room?  Did I mention I'm married and hope to stay so for awhile?  My wife loves music, and hearing it in good fidelity as well.  But strangely she doesn't want a bunch of cylinders pocking our already small living space.

Also, I'm not looking to increase the bass response of my system as it's already sufficient with the Titan.  I simply want to see if allowing the lower frequencies to be presented in stereo will increase the presence, space and realism of the music that's played (particularly acoustic music recorded in a real space).

So, what do you folks think?

Thanks again for the responses.

[budyog]

LarBo,
 If you want to increase the perceived "space", reinforce the midrange, increase the presence and realism of the music you are playing through your system, get another Titan! What you have said you wanted to do was done for me when I went from a single Maestro to stereo Maestros. I looked back at what I have said about stereo Maestros (look under ACI for stereo Maestros and an R-DES) and I am sorry now that I did not say what you said! I went in to the technical side with the inclusion of the R-DES a bit more than the listening/hearing side. Anyway, I am surprised there is not more discussions about stereo/dual subs here on AC. Adding another sub seem to have filled a missing gap in the realism of the sound. More like full range floor standers with more flexibility to adjust. It seems like most companies feel one sub is all you need. I disagree! If you are going to have a sub, I think everyone should have stereo subs.
Very low sound may be non-directional, but when you put 2 subs in a stereo situation, it seems to abolish that theory, a least it sounds that way! LarBo Get another Titan! aa

[Jayman]

I think the point here is that there is limited space, ie. no room for two Titans (even two Titans would be better than one). The closest I can come to the current comparison is when I had a pair of passive Sub 1's and Sapphires way back. Having two subs then sounded incredible really filling up the entire room. I would have to give a vote for dual subs and based on the specs dual Force's would do quite well. 

[Lkdog]

Did I mention I'm married and hope to stay so for awhile?  My wife loves music, and hearing it in good fidelity as well.  But strangely she doesn't want a bunch of cylinders pocking our already small living space.

 

Well, I don't know the specs of the Force XL. Mike could could give you a better idea if two of them would give you more of what you are looking for than with just one Titan.
As you can see, I have two Titans and it did make a nice difference in many subtle ways-ease of bass response, larger soundstage feeling, not necessarily more bass loudness but more bass fullness and better overall low end response.
I do have larger room so it did benefit from it.

Maybe play around with speaker placement a bit toward back wall which will increase the Merlin in room bass response and then you can lower the Titan cutoff if you wish to experiment soem more. You probably have already done this.

Another option is get rid of the ball and chain and get a dedicated listening room.
Just kidding.

[Mike Dzurko]

A pair of Force XL will actually give you increased headroom and output over a single Titan. As others have mentioned, the stereo pair will also improve the quality of bass and increase the sense of space and soundstage. While a single mono sub does a terrific job, a stereo pair of subs is the gold standard for bass reproduction. And the higher the crossover point, the more the improvements are obvious.

[LarBO]

I'm glad to learn that two Force's will provide at least as much room loading as a single Titan, as this will certainly prompt me to move toward the dual Forces.......you'll be getting an order from me soon, Mike. 

Thanks to all who've responded.  I hope it's a good Thanksgiving for everyone.

[Mike Dzurko]

I'm glad to learn that two Force's will provide at least as much room loading as a single Titan, as this will certainly prompt me to move toward the dual Forces.......you'll be getting an order from me soon, Mike. 

Thanks to all who've responded.  I hope it's a good Thanksgiving for everyone.

Sounds like a plan . . . make sure to note the discount when ordering a pair of subs. It was a GREAT Thanksgiving, I hope everyone's was. Please do continue to drop in here with your questions and comments . . .

[aggielaw]

Question about stereo subs.  I've heard 2 subs will not increase volume at a given Hz unless sitting next to or on top of each other.

Does the air and sounstage derived from two subs depend on this principle as well?

[Mike Dzurko]

Question about stereo subs.  I've heard 2 subs will not increase volume at a given Hz unless sitting next to or on top of each other.

Does the air and sounstage derived from two subs depend on this principle as well?

This is not true. To get the maximum increase in output (6db) you need to co-locate the subs. However, you can have a spaced placement and still get an increase in output capability, but it will not add up to the full 6db gain of co-location. How much gain will depend on the exact placement and the relative phase between the two subs at varying frequencies.

To get an increased sense of space, etc. you definitely need to move the subs apart.