[werd]

How do you SS guys have any fun with no tubes to roll?

It's funny but most musicians I know prefer tubes in their home audio systems.

we roll other things.....lol  aa

[EDS_]

I want to thank everyone involved in this thread.  I've had more fun with it than any on AC in quite while.



Currently spinning,  The Clash - Straight to Hell

[underdog64]

Speaking for myself I prefer tubes cause I feel they are best at adressing the "inadequacies" of compact discs (lack of liquidity and depth).If I had a vinyl rig I'd still prefer tubes I guess but not as much-maybe then go with something that has excellent PRAT like Naim or Exposure.

[Tyson]

Well, the argument that one hears in favor of SS usually runs something like "I want to hear exactly what is on the recording, and SS gear is neutral and transparent and allows you to hear the recording without excessive editorializing".

It's a valid argument. 

But as I stated in my first post, most recordings flat out suck.  Really neutral SS gear lets you hear exactly how badly they suck.  To me that doesn't make much sense, musical enjoyment sacrificed at the alter of "neutrality".

Given that most recordings are mediocre or outright bad, doesn't it make much more sense to have equipment that is more forgiving?  I still say that modern recording techniques often strip the life out of music, and good tube gear goes a long way to restoring that missing life.

[werd]

Well, the argument that one hears in favor of SS usually runs something like "I want to hear exactly what is on the recording, and SS gear is neutral and transparent and allows you to hear the recording without excessive editorializing".

It's a valid argument. 

But as I stated in my first post, most recordings flat out suck.  Really neutral SS gear lets you hear exactly how badly they suck.  To me that doesn't make much sense, musical enjoyment sacrificed at the alter of "neutrality".

Given that most recordings are mediocre or outright bad, doesn't it make much more sense to have equipment that is more forgiving?  I still say that modern recording techniques often strip the life out of music, and good tube gear goes a long way to restoring that missing life.

i actually think recordings have gotten better, probably because of the research into digital is taking leaps and bounds. 80's and 90's were not that good.
SS is definetely benefiting froms those advancements in digital playback and so forth.

[topround]

One thing that especially makes me happy about tubes is their dimensionality, and the associated air that comes with it.
Good tubes give a more 3 dimensional image, instruments in space surrounded by air, or the reverberations around them.  It makes music so much more interesting. Solid state can sound 2 dimensional by comparison, a narrow depth of field. Of course there are exceptions to the rule
That is what gets to me about tubes

What sucks about tubes is they are expensive and quirky, and if you have a lot of tubes find the bad one can be a bitch, but since we like to roll tubes we seem to have extras at hand

mike

[rajacat]

One thing that especially makes me happy about tubes is their dimensionality, and the associated air that comes with it.
Good tubes give a more 3 dimensional image, instruments in space surrounded by air, or the reverberations around them.  It makes music so much more interesting. Solid state can sound 2 dimensional by comparison, a narrow depth of field. Of course there are exceptions to the rule

mike

Nicely put. That's what I was trying to say. The outstanding holographic ability of a good tube system.

-Roy

[Tyson]

i actually think recordings have gotten better, probably because of the research into digital is taking leaps and bounds. 80's and 90's were not that good.
SS is definetely benefiting froms those advancements in digital playback and so forth.

Oh, don't get me wrong, there are indeed some excellent recordings out there, and an excellent recording sounds great on almost any good system you play it on, SS or Tubes both.  But most recordings are not excellent, in fact most are not even good.  Mediocre to poor seems to be the norm, even now (especially if compression and the resultant clipping is encoded during the mastering).  

Given this fact, it seems that tube gear still is a good way to go, as it still lets you enjoy the music, even if the recording itself is less than excellent.

[Tyson]

One thing that especially makes me happy about tubes is their dimensionality, and the associated air that comes with it.
Good tubes give a more 3 dimensional image, instruments in space surrounded by air, or the reverberations around them.  It makes music so much more interesting. Solid state can sound 2 dimensional by comparison, a narrow depth of field. Of course there are exceptions to the rule
That is what gets to me about tubes

What sucks about tubes is they are expensive and quirky, and if you have a lot of tubes find the bad one can be a bitch, but since we like to roll tubes we seem to have extras at hand

mike

I guess that begs the question - do tubes "add" the dimensionality you mention, or does SS gear strip it out?

[werd]

One thing that especially makes me happy about tubes is their dimensionality, and the associated air that comes with it.
Good tubes give a more 3 dimensional image, instruments in space surrounded by air, or the reverberations around them.  It makes music so much more interesting. Solid state can sound 2 dimensional by comparison, a narrow depth of field. Of course there are exceptions to the rule
That is what gets to me about tubes

What sucks about tubes is they are expensive and quirky, and if you have a lot of tubes find the bad one can be a bitch, but since we like to roll tubes we seem to have extras at hand

mike

I guess that begs the question - do tubes "add" the dimensionality you mention, or does SS gear strip it out?

The answer to that is neither. I can get with my SS kit all the seductive qualities of tubes from late nite listening, like dimensionality and lushness. The answer lies with  the quality of ac. I still havent found a good source of AC conditioning. I know this because of the way my gear sounds late at nite when everyone in the neighborhood has gone nite nite....  . The quality of the ac power is a major contributor of sound quality.

[Tyson]

I've got a dual, cascaded solution to AC quality - Felix power bars w/bybee's, all plugged into a BPT 2.5 - There's still a small difference between night AC and daytime AC, but it's MUCH smaller than it used to be. 

[werd]

I've got a dual, cascaded solution to AC quality - Felix power bars w/bybee's, all plugged into a BPT 2.5 - There's still a small difference between night AC and daytime AC, but it's MUCH smaller than it used to be. 

I know and the claims that these line conditioner manufactures make about their gear, there shouldnt be any difference but there still is.

[geezer]

No opinions on tube/SS hybrids?

[Tyson]

No opinions on tube/SS hybrids?

Sure, I've owned hybrid gear in the past - it basically sounds like SS, there's very little "tube magic" that is audible in these designs.

[Niteshade]

Remember: It depends on where the tubes are. There's an enormous difference sonically between having tube finals or using tubes within the driver/voltage amp stages. Many people run hybrid systems without giving it a second thought:  A solid state preamp connected to a 100% tube amplifier may be considered a hybrid setup.

No opinions on tube/SS hybrids?

Sure, I've owned hybrid gear in the past - it basically sounds like SS, there's very little "tube magic" that is audible in these designs.

[Tyson]

Remember: It depends on where the tubes are. There's an enormous difference sonically between having tube finals or using tubes within the driver/voltage amp stages. Many people run hybrid systems without giving it a second thought:  A solid state preamp connected to a 100% tube amplifier may be considered a hybrid setup.

Agreed.  IMO, hybrid designs using tubes as drivers and SS output devices specifically sound like SS, the sound of tubes has very little influence on the end sound with this design, at least in my experience.

[mgalusha]

No opinions on tube/SS hybrids?

Most that I've heard I didn't particularly care for. An interesting thought is something like a Pass F4 which is a unity gain power buffer. Since it has no gain, it doesn't require a bunch of feedback to make it linear, what it does require is a preamp with a lot of voltage swing to drive it. Tom_S has one he is feeding with an Aikido tube stage and from what I remember he is very fond of the results though I think he mentioned he could have used a bit more voltage.

I recently traded some work for an Audio-GD C-1 "Zero dB" module. This is similar to the Pass F4 in that it's a unity gain power buffer with zero feedback but is fully differential and will deliver quite a bit of power - provided I can come up with enough drive signal. The Feb 2009 issue of audioXPress has a very cool preamp design (from SY on diyaudio.com) designed to drive the Pass F4 in differential mode. I'm planning on building something very similar but I need more voltage gain than SY's design so I'll be using a higher mu tube, probably a 6N1P as it has a mu of 33 and a decently low rp and I happen to have quite a few of them. I definitely like the idea of a no feedback 250W amp with tubes for the voltage gain.

mike

[zybar]

No opinions on tube/SS hybrids?

Sure, I've owned hybrid gear in the past - it basically sounds like SS, there's very little "tube magic" that is audible in these designs.

I thought you got a good amount of tube magic with the Moscode 401HR.

While it certainly won't fool you into believing it is a full blown tube amp, it still has a very nice sound.

George

[arthurs]

One thing I've always liked about the VAC's run as mono's is how they are strong and clean (leaning towards a good ss amp) but find just the right amount of that tube liquidy goodness and magic for me without overdoing it.... 

[zybar]

One thing I've always liked about the VAC's run as mono's is how they are strong and clean (leaning towards a good ss amp) but find just the right amount of that tube liquidy goodness and magic for me without overdoing it.... 

HEY!!  You just described my MA-1's.   aa

George