"Off the grid" solutions

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whomhead

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"Off the grid" solutions
« on: 17 Dec 2021, 02:30 pm »
Hey all, I know Danny has discussed various times in different videos about most / all of his front end being "off the grid". A few questions...

1. What's the degree of improvement of removing front end components from line voltage? I have it in my head that, if nothing else than the fun of it, I'd like to build a Pi based streamer and DAC in a single chassis. Preferably some sort of nice wood. You know, just to be different I guess.

2. What's the standard method of achieving said "off grid" power? LifePO4 battery banks? Is it as simple as putting together as many cells as needed to get to the required voltage? Is there more to it?

Thanks in advance!

Danny Richie

Re: "Off the grid" solutions
« Reply #1 on: 26 Dec 2021, 02:45 pm »
All of my gear was designed to run on 12 volts. It's not hard with the front end gear as not a lot of current is needed.

We (our little group of guys) have tried all types of batteries. The Lithium type do not sound as good as the AGM style batteries. Also, the larger 100 plus amp hour batteries tend to have better drive and dynamics even when the draw is millivolts.

jlucas

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Re: "Off the grid" solutions
« Reply #2 on: 30 Dec 2021, 10:28 am »
Does anyone make gear designed for 12v now that Dodd has passed away?

Anyone tried an inverter setup?

I really like my 12v chip amp and would like to experiment more with it on other components.

Shives

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Re: "Off the grid" solutions
« Reply #3 on: 30 Dec 2021, 12:52 pm »
A lot of amps and a lot of electronics run on DC… most of these units have a Ac to Dc converter for this. What most are doing is taking out the AC part, and hooking directly to DC.

If you have products that you want to try doing this with, open up, find the circuit… clip, solder and go! Make sure you add fuses too. Lol.

Lot of time you can find the power adapter and see what that does example 120Vac to 12.5 or 14.5 VDC.

Batteries are 12.6-12.8 resting In good shape. AGM is just the most common, next to lead acid. (absorbed glass matting) many company’s use this technology, with different glasses and more. lithium batteries are not ready I don’t feel for audio yet. But I’ve been playing with them quiet a bit. It’s a powerful charge, in a small pack! If we could get this tech better, it would save space and weight! Trust me, a ton… put it this way, I can power a motorcycle off a batter I can fit into a headlamp housing. But introduce cold weather, or ripple DC charging and you’ll smoke a Li battery.

Ac power source goes above and below the 0 volt line 60 times a second. (A cycle)  This induces a hum into most audio systems being its powered by this 120Vac 60Hz hum. You hear this in most fluorescent light Lol. So DC is a direct current… it does not alternate above and below the 0 volt line. It goes directly to what ever voltage (this case 12.6 let’s say)  or what ever your output is from battery. Some electronics are 24 volts some even 48 volts. Rather then a step up transformer, I would add more batteries till I got the desired voltage level.
Transformers work off electromagnets and windings. Another noise item.

Now, you’ll need to have these recharged… and the battery charger is just a power source in reverse.. it’s takes the 120Vac and drops changes through bridge rectifier, voltage regulator chips an capacitors for filtering and more to produce 12vdc. Having this hooked up when not listening to music is best… cause otherwise you can introduce ripple DC which could be heard while. After all, we are taking AC and changing to DC with 4 diodes. Lol.

So, In essence running on DC does a few things.. 1. Brings on a whole science experiment. 2. Kills the 60Hz hum right off the bat. 3. A lot of line voltage sources are dirty power.. not filtered, no power surge protection… can cause issues for higher end audio. Any noise really.

Running off DC is cleaner in Theory.  If you want to take it to this level… please understand that this is not a inexpensive solution to do properly. But a lot of fun. GL.

Many around here repeat things said, and really don’t have the knowledge to answer most of this. They just say, because it does, or repeat words someone else’s does not have the school for… even those that do can sometimes goof it up. Unless your really good with this stuff, I would ask and look around quiet a bit before starting.

Then again, as above… What do I know!? Lol. Even going to a real school, I still know nothing. So, do a ton of research.

Take a look into this for your self and do some low level experiments.

Badd99

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Re: "Off the grid" solutions
« Reply #4 on: 30 Dec 2021, 01:29 pm »
I thought the idea was good too but ended up with a ps audio powerplant and damn does it make a difference! I also notice increasing the volts to 125 makes a big difference in sound which you can adjust with the powerplant.

A used ps audio powerplant p5 is like 1800 and can run the entire front end with ease and it's pretty damn close to pure dc.

zenfishbike

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Re: "Off the grid" solutions
« Reply #5 on: 30 Dec 2021, 03:51 pm »
I thought the idea was good too but ended up with a ps audio powerplant and damn does it make a difference! I also notice increasing the volts to 125 makes a big difference in sound which you can adjust with the powerplant.

A used ps audio powerplant p5 is like 1800 and can run the entire front end with ease and it's pretty damn close to pure dc.

My intention here is not to derail this thread but to offer some balance with my experience with my PS Audio regenerator which I feel has taken some life out of my system. I've read many reviews on these, both pro and con. My guess is it's a help, or hinderance, depending on the quality of AC from the wall. I live in a remote mountain area and I suspect my raw AC signal must be pretty clean. I think this is definitely a try and see device.

NoahH

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Re: "Off the grid" solutions
« Reply #6 on: 30 Dec 2021, 08:54 pm »
My intention here is not to derail this thread but to offer some balance with my experience with my PS Audio regenerator which I feel has taken some life out of my system. I've read many reviews on these, both pro and con. My guess is it's a help, or hinderance, depending on the quality of AC from the wall. I live in a remote mountain area and I suspect my raw AC signal must be pretty clean. I think this is definitely a try and see device.

I have a listening room with dedicated circuits, and another system in my bedroom on shared circuits. I tried a AQ Niagara and it had a negative impact in my listening room, but positive in my bedroom. I shared that to second the "it depends on your AC" thesis. While it did help in the bedroom, I also decided the Niagara for a secondary system was a little crazy and returned it.   ;)

Badd99

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Re: "Off the grid" solutions
« Reply #7 on: 31 Dec 2021, 02:45 am »
I have a listening room with dedicated circuits, and another system in my bedroom on shared circuits. I tried a AQ Niagara and it had a negative impact in my listening room, but positive in my bedroom. I shared that to second the "it depends on your AC" thesis. While it did help in the bedroom, I also decided the Niagara for a secondary system was a little crazy and returned it.   ;)

I found any passive device always ruined my dedicated line setup. I have 4 8awg dedicated lines and the powerplant for front end equipment made a big improvement.

There just isn't enough gear that can easily run on dc imho but I'd go that way if it was easy. I found, even with 8awg dedicated lines and dedicated new ground rods and upgraded 00 gauge wire to my box the powerplant improved my ac front end equipment.

jlucas

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Re: "Off the grid" solutions
« Reply #8 on: 2 Jan 2022, 01:58 pm »
So no has experimented with using a DC powered inverter to run unconverted hardware?

mikeeastman

Re: "Off the grid" solutions
« Reply #9 on: 2 Jan 2022, 07:10 pm »

If you go the battery route use AGM batteries and a Ctek 7002 charger it can be left connected all the time and won’t add any noise to the system. I had a battery system for awhile and that setup work very well.

If you go with an inverter the cheap RV one are crap, you need one that is pure sine wave and it should be rated at about 30% more power than you need. Victron is a German company that make nice inverters here is a link if your interested.  https://www.solar-electric.com/victron-phoenix-12-500-120v-nema-5-15r-inverter.html

I live off the grid so my power is supplied with an inverter and it is very clean power. I have tried several devices over the years that are suppose to clean up power all had either no effect or made things sound worse.

jlucas you can PM if you want any more info.

mix4fix

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Re: "Off the grid" solutions
« Reply #10 on: 2 Jan 2022, 07:26 pm »
When I think of "off-grid", listening to high-end audio is not at the top of the list.

However, I always thought Vinni Rossi's Red Wine Audio seemed to fill that purpose. And, I always thought they were good at audio shows. Sucks they are gone.

NoahH

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Re: "Off the grid" solutions
« Reply #11 on: 3 Jan 2022, 01:28 am »
So no has experimented with using a DC powered inverter to run unconverted hardware?

That is what a power plant from PS Audio basically is. Not fully from a battery, but the inverter is the tricky part as most inverters are not trying for a perfect signal. They are just trying to get close enough. PS Audio basically built a giant amplifier with a huge power supply amplifying a sine wave.

mikeeastman

Re: "Off the grid" solutions
« Reply #12 on: 3 Jan 2022, 02:09 pm »
mix4fix I think you have 70s concept of what off the grid is like.  what is on the top of your list for off the grid?

 Your right about Vinni’s gear though I used his Dac  when I  had my battery powered system.

Badd99

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Re: "Off the grid" solutions
« Reply #13 on: 6 Jan 2022, 04:55 pm »
If you go the battery route use AGM batteries and a Ctek 7002 charger it can be left connected all the time and won’t add any noise to the system. I had a battery system for awhile and that setup work very well.

If you go with an inverter the cheap RV one are crap, you need one that is pure sine wave and it should be rated at about 30% more power than you need. Victron is a German company that make nice inverters here is a link if your interested.  https://www.solar-electric.com/victron-phoenix-12-500-120v-nema-5-15r-inverter.html

I live off the grid so my power is supplied with an inverter and it is very clean power. I have tried several devices over the years that are suppose to clean up power all had either no effect or made things sound worse.

jlucas you can PM if you want any more info.

I would love to plug my ps audio powerplant into this on a battery so I could see the sine wave shape and THD on the wave because the unit has a built in scope.

mikeeastman

Re: "Off the grid" solutions
« Reply #14 on: 7 Jan 2022, 01:57 pm »
That would be interesting to know what a scope would show. All inverters don't actually make an actual wave but create the wave with a series of steps. The cheap non sine wave inverters use large steps which makes noising a/c and most modern appliances won't turn on because they don't read the power as good. The pure sine wave inverters use much smaller steps and electronics can't tell the difference. Don't know if the scope would see the difference between grid power and pure sine wave power. Have to see if I can get my hands on a scope and check it out.

RonP

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Re: "Off the grid" solutions
« Reply #15 on: 12 Jan 2022, 05:41 pm »
what are the typical costs to get a off-grid 12v setup?

mikeeastman

Re: "Off the grid" solutions
« Reply #16 on: 12 Jan 2022, 09:46 pm »
For strictly 12 volts you would need a battery AGM 50 amp/hr there’r about $225, you may need a bigger or smaller one depending on how much power you gear uses.  A Ctek 70002 charger  $130 they add no noise so you can leave them on all the time. you will need some power cables. If you wanted to add an inverter to make 120v power a 800 watt victron inverter would be $280 also depending on your gear larger or smaller will work.You would need a J-box with receptacle for the gear to plug into and a fuse or circuit breaker between battery and inverter.

RonP

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Re: "Off the grid" solutions
« Reply #17 on: 12 Jan 2022, 11:36 pm »
Thanks Mike

GeorgeAb

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Re: "Off the grid" solutions
« Reply #18 on: 27 Feb 2022, 08:47 pm »
I would love to plug my ps audio powerplant into this on a battery so I could see the sine wave shape and THD on the wave because the unit has a built in scope.

This guy did. He had 1.9% THD at panel. Measured .1% THD at output of PS Audio Power Plant. He also got fairly good results with APC double conversion APC at .2% THD. He reported that the APC had a decent looking sinewave, but not as perfect as the the PS Audio. The PS Audio is rated at <.1% THD the APC <2%, but measure better per this post. 
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/is-ps-audio-the-only-game-in-town-for-power-regenerators-2

Pardon the slight hijack, but wanted to answer a relevant question.