[jackman]

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=108385.0;topicseen

Hey JT,

I see you moved my comments to another thread and called it some BS like "thoughts from people who haven't heard the Ncore" or some similar nonsense.

For the record , I have heard the Ncore and thought it sounded pretty good. I was merely commenting I the spirit of this thread where anyone who expresses less than glowing comments about the Ncore is softly accused of liking distorted or colored sound. I heard the Ncore and i understand how someone can prefer the sound of another amp.  Not that the Ncore was bad, it's just that different people have different preferences.

Also, it's funny that you are so caught up in the measurements of this amp.  You even accused manufacturers who didn't provide extensive measurements of ripping people off (in the Biggest Ripoff thread).  I dont recall you posting any measurements of the Dude preamp a while back when you raves about that piece.  Did I miss the measurements or do your opinions only apply to gear that you aren't extremely enthusiastic about? 

Just wondering.

[Bear]

Ok, a much belated review, my apologies with my tardiness.

discalimer:  I have virtually no exposure to quality gear, there are no decent shops in my area and I have led a sheltered life when it comes to quality gear. However, I have put together a very good sounding headphone rig and listened to lots of live music, both unamplified and amplified.

I was able to get in several hours of listening during my time with the Ncore amps.

First thing I noticed was that they were extremely quite, I could only hear a slight hiss with my ear on the tweeter. I listened to many different genre's and types of music and found these little buggers to be very dynamic, I kept my iphone db meter(i switched between two seperate apps and replayed the same samples multiple times and both apps were always within a db or two of each other with the same app varying a couple a db on the same peaks.  FWIW) on and monitored the peaks on many music samples.  At one point I was listening with peaks of 100 db just ahead of my listening position.

I did some a/b comparisons and listened to the same music samples over and over.  To my ears the low end definately had more impact and authority, not bloated or unatural, in fact, it is obvious that my current set up is not accurately presenting me this low end information, it is  missing from my current set-up.   I felt like on acoustic guitar cuts the tonality of the guitar sounded more natural.

One area I am unsure on is with upper register vocals they were not as "hot" compared to my own equipment(low end pro-sumer monitors of which I have identical powered and passive versions).  I am not sure which is correct,  the Ncore seemed more relaxed in this area.  I could easily contribute this to lower distortion and noise associated with the Ncore.

I much prefer the Ncore's and will put them in the running for consideration when a do finally upgrade all my gear.

The Triode cables Pete provided are overbuilt(im a fan) tanks.  Very substantial, they did not get in the way and were easy enough to manipulate.

A huge thank you to Jason and Pete for this opportunity as it is the only way I could ever find the time or access to listen to this type of equipment.


"When I hear music, I fear no danger. I am invulnerable. I see no foe. I am related to the earliest times, and to the latest."
Henry David Thoreau

[mjosef]

Context please Mr Bear, would you mind listing the gear you used with the Ncore.

[James Romeyn]

Further impressions of the Ncore 400...
Most of my impressions of the tour model holds true for Occam's recent build. Yesterday we (3 pairs of ears)spent a few hours trying different signal input wiring, and the different resultant sound was easily audible and confirmed starkly my earlier impression that the Ncore does not do piano the proper justice, nor does it have the 'ambiance' in the upper range that Occam's ASKA possess in spades...

Which model AKSA?  I had the Naksa 100 (absolutely loved it) for several months and should be hearing my new Ncore Trinaural system tomorrow.   

[Barry_NJ]

Which model AKSA?  I had the Naksa 100 (absolutely loved it) for several months and should be hearing my new Ncore Trinaural system tomorrow.   

From Paul's review...

Amp - AKSA 100wpc Lifeforce power amp, bog standard, save for the addition of  Vishay MKP1837 .022uf Polypropolene caps [available from Mouser,Newark,Digikey,RS,Farnell...] bypassing very pedestrian Vishay MKT Polyester input capacitors. It sits on 3 Walker brass points on a mdf shelf, sitting on 3 original Stillpoints with 'top hats' sitting on another shelf on the Sanus stand.

[James Romeyn]

From Paul's review...

Barry,
Yes, I remember reading that earlier, thanks for refreshing my not-getting-any-younger memory. 

Preferring the Lifeforce over Ncore is saying a lot.  My understanding is the Naksa 100 is definitely an upgrade over the earlier Lifeforce.  I'm doing my best to avoid having that judgement not affect my judgement/expectations.  The Naksa was among my favorite amps.  Obviously the amp/speaker/room/system interface affects judgements.  For instance, one listener preferred Ncore over his (estimate $11k/pr) Linn Klimax mono blocs (Chakra architecture).  I owned the Chakra 3-ch amp (two steps below the Kilmax).  Best I could tell (no direct A-B) the Chakra was better than the Naksa 100 in some ways but in other ways I preferred the Naksa.  We'll see.   

[Jon L]

DZ3C0189 by drjlo2, on Flickr

PLUG AND PLAY?

NCore NC400 Monoblocks are rated at 200 watts into 8 Ohms and 400 watts into 4 Ohms, but the diminutive size and svelt weight of these monoblocks hardly hint at the power within.  Compared to many 200 watt/8 Ohm class A monoblocks, the NCores simply do not appear menacing or impressive upon first view, so much so that I sympathize somewhat with those future NCore commercial builders who will likely deposit the modules into large and heavy chassis with impressive appearance in order to attract the buyers and charge $10K. 

At any rate, these are very simple designs with one XLR input, one power input, and one pair of binding posts.  These being class D and cool-running, many folks may assume these can be simply inserted into any old system, plug-and-play, so to speak.  However, while these monoblocks sounded good without much adjustments or tweaks, they really came into their own only after some careful tweaking and system matching.  One of the most important factors to the end sound quality was the use of a top-notch tubed preamp, for example. 

When used without a good tube preamp, the whole system sounded very clean with low-distortion and blistering speed.  There was nothing overtly missing or wrong with the sound, and in fact, so many things were technically superb especially resolution and imaging.  But alas, I was becoming more and more aware I was listening to great "sound," not necessarily to great musicians.  However, I do not intend this to imply the NCores were cold, harsh, or amusical; in fact they were superbly smooth while presenting tons of information in very finely-grained pixels.  These were some of the best solid state sounds I have laid my ears on over the ears, but you must understand, I usually run 3 watt 2A3 SET's.

In case some would like to blame the ancillary, the Weiss DAC 202U DAC straight into NCores is not too shabby, not to mention being a nice match visually.


DZ3C0197 by drjlo2, on Flickr


NEXT CHAPTER

Sensing that I am in need of that special something called toobs, I inserted my extreme-tweaked, teflon-capped, Siemens 5814A-dropped Transcendent Grounded Grid preamp.  I would say this version sounds at least an order of magnitude better than the already-great stock version and leave it at that.  Now, the MUSIC coming into the room had verve, emotion, texture, girth, density, richness, and foundation, but mostly importantly, crazy involvement. 

It's this last element that makes you keep wanting to play album after album, playing music into the wee hours.  This is the so-called "magic" we are all seeking, and I am here to tell you that a good tubed preamp mated to NCores brought it home in a big way.  Sure, it's possible a tiny fraction of literal transparency to the recording was lost, but the transparency to the original musical event was certainly enhanced tremendously, to the point one no longer cared about these technicalities. 

THE GOODS

With the tube goodness seemingly unlocking the key, the NCores strutted what "IT" does best, namely, endless resolution without any grain or peakiness, effortless dynamics, bass power and extension, low distortion, and a sense of velvety sophistication often difficult to find with solid-state amplification. 

It was also gratifying to see how turning up the volume did not result in sound breaking apart into a mess.  The overall smoothness and clarity remained intact at higher volumes while increased decibels enhanced apparent detail and dynamic punch as expected.  It would be interesting to see how the higher-powered OEM NCore modules will turn out in terms of sound quality vs. power output.  As we all know, higher power does not necessarily mean better sound; in fact, often the opposite is true.  Of note, I have not thrown the NCores truly difficult-to-drive speakers, as the worst I tried was 86 dB/8 Ohm speakers and my main speakers are true 96 dB/7 Ohms to accomodate my 3 watt SET.  I have seen some reports that NCores truly shine brighter with higher impedance speakers, so those with "4 Ohm" speakers that dip into 1 Ohm in places may not necessarily share my enthusiasm with the NCores.

THE COMPETITION

Over the years, I have gone through a bevy of amplifiers including other class D amsp such as Spectron Musician, but one of the few solid state amps I still keep around is Marsh Sound Design A200S.  Marsh amps are highly respected in the industry, and they utilize low-noise FETs in balanced, complimentary differential input circuit, matched to high current, paralleled, bi-polar power transistors.  A200S is rated at 120 watts into 8 Ohms and is one of the nicest class-AB amps out there, especially at the modest price. 

Directly comparing Marsh to NCore, it was interesting to hear how they do not differ a huge amount.  Yes, they sound different, but they sounded similar enough that no major change in cables, preamps, etc were needed in order to balance out the sound.  Both are excellent amps, with both excelling in detail resolution especially.  After going through my music collection, the difference between them reminded me of the difference between simple oversampling DAC vs. upsampling DAC.  Marsh was like an oversampling DAC at straight 44.1 kHz, with bolder but coarser grain structure that is a bit more forward and involving.  Musical energy was seemingly centered more in mid to lower-midrange with not the Nth degree of extension into the extremes. 

NCore was like an upsampling DAC with 44.1 kHz upsampled to 96 kHz.  The said musical energy in mid/low-midrange spread upward and downward to give more air and silkiness up top while the bass region became more pronounced and powerful.  Grain structure became finer and smoother, with overall a more sophisticated mien.  The downside was a bit of diminished presence and forwardness in the mids, which some systems may not synergize well with, especially if there is no tubes anywhere in the system.  But overall, the degree of resolution and smoothness that seemingly co-existed was quite impressive and ear-opening. 

When using my 97dB sensitive speakers to compare NCores to my highly-modified 2A3 SET, despite the seemingly Herculean resolution and clarity of NCores, I am again reminded why some love the top-notch flea-power SET's.  When female singers whisper a phrase, the SET is able to convey a few more smacks of saliva and more of the microdynamic ebb and flow.  There is a little more life, light, and emotion that comes across, making it a bit easier to forget you are listening to a stereo system.  Now, even on 97dB speakers, 3 watts is not going to give you massive dynamics of NCores, and there is no way the SET can come anywhere close to the bass prowess, which is why I usually actively bi-amp with solid state on bass. 

For the vast majority who have no access to true high-efficiency speakers, do not want to mess with active bi- or tri-amplification, and don't "need" what great SET tube amps bring to the table, then the NCores should definitely be on the proverbial extremely short list.  Before the OEM's blow the price bracket of NCores wide open, DIY'ers should make as much out of NC400 modules as possible, but a high-quality tube preamp should be part of the equation I believe. 

That's some GOOD stuff, Hypex 

 

 

[Jon L]

Photos

[jtwrace]

Thanks Jon. 

[jtwrace]

PLUG AND PLAY?
At any rate, these are very simple designs with one XLR input, one power input, and one pair of binding posts. 

It's important to note that these are my build and anyone can, if they choose, to make them bigger, prettier and more complicated.

[hifial]

Jason, are these a new build for the tour? It is stated above they have XLR but the amps that went out on the tour earlier had only RCA and needed a XLR adapter. If they only have XLR that is great as it has been stated by Bruno that the amps sound their best as XLR only.

[jtwrace]

Jason, are these a new build for the tour? It is stated above they have XLR but the amps that went out on the tour earlier had only RCA and needed a XLR adapter. If they only have XLR that is great as it has been stated by Bruno that the amps sound their best as XLR only.

No, these are the same amps that have been on tour for 5 months.  They only had an XLR and needed RCA > XLR adapter.

[hifial]

OK, my mistake. It was the other way around. Thanks.

[Rocket_Ronny]

Excellent review Jon.

What Set amp and speakers are you running?

Did your tube preamp bring any color to the mainly transparent NCore, or was it just more body, roundness, presence, liquidity?

Rocket_Ronny

[James Romeyn]

Great review, Jon, thanks!

For reader's context: I was first smitten by Marsh's amps when hearing one years ago, around the time of the killer TAS review.  They are still among the best amp values, similar to same-vintage McCormack and Chinese-built French-YBA-designed Audio Refinement (I own the latter, exact same power rating as your Marsh).  All three of the above amps sound very much alike, with many of the best qualities of both tubes and SS.  Inside my YBA reminds me of a Levinson in layout and build quality.     

[Jon L]

Excellent review Jon.

What Set amp and speakers are you running?

Did your tube preamp bring any color to the mainly transparent NCore, or was it just more body, roundness, presence, liquidity?

Rocket_Ronny

I'm currently using extreme modified Bottlehead 2A3 Paramours, with pretty much every cap and changed out to teflons whenever possible and EML 2A3 tubes.  My main speakers are high-efficiency and one-of-a-kind, custom, DIY jobs using ribbons, Focal 7K2 midrange units. 


IMG_8170 by drjlo2, on Flickr

As far as tube preamp bringing "color," the answer is No if one is referring to colors as in colorations, i.e. casting warm/orange color and bloat to everything. My preamp mainly seems to work in the dynamics domain, both micro and macro, to embue a sureness and forcefulness to small and large notes, which in turn gives you more dense, rich, and harmonically full 3-D type of images that "jumps out" easier.  I would not use the grounded grid preamp in stock form in my system, as I found it robbed too much transparency, but I modified it until I was satisfied 

If interested, my preamp mods are documented here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=72652.0

[James Romeyn]

Jon, speakers uber-licious!   

[PeteG]

Jon, speakers uber-licious!   

I agree, very nice.

[*Scotty*]

Jon, do you have a link to a pdf doc on the Focal 7K2 driver I was wondering what it's raw frequency response looked like as well as the Thiele/Small parameter?
Thanks,
Scotty

[Jon L]

Jon, do you have a link to a pdf doc on the Focal 7K2 driver I was wondering what it's raw frequency response looked like as well as the Thiele/Small parameter?
Thanks,
Scotty

Can't seem to find the original pdf doc.  All I could find was some info:

CONE TYPE:Polykevlar
SIZE:            7in
SPL(2.83v):   95.8db
WATTS:           100
Z:             6ohms
FS:           99.9hz
RANGE:      100-4Khz
VAS:          9.1ltr
Qts:             .34
Xmax:       +/-3.5mm