The Truth

Niteshade · « **on:** 5 Oct 2008, 07:58 pm »

I know why people like single ended triode amplifiers: They do not require negative feedback circuits and have a minimalist elegant circuit that's incapable of standing in the music's way. I shouldn't say that as a blanket statement because some designs are better than others. But- I will accept the statement as inclusive for good designs.

The truth can only be told if the amplifier/speaker system will let it through. Most of the details within music are in the upper part of the audio spectrum- around 4k up. The interesting thing is this- most of the details are not within loud passages, but very soft and in the milliwatt range, even at high volumes. They are very easy to attenuate. It's interesting that these small details are what make music sound more cohesive. Hearing them provides a better picture of what's going on. That means a more accurate sound stage, instrument positioning and centering.

I was recently discussing with a friend how fascinating it is to hear the pedals on a piano being pushed down, a breath taken by someone playing a wind instrument, the rustling of clothes, fingers sliding along the strings of a guitar and so on. What's it like not to hear those things? I suppose if one never did hear them, nothing would be missed. These sounds are present in most well recorded music. It is possible to select components capable of amplifying and delivering the entire contents of a program. It is also possible to make amplifiers other than single ended designs capable of this level of precise amplification. By no means am I dissing single ended amps- I really like them! I'm saying you DO have more options and they are in the double and triple digit range of wattage output.

TONEPUB · « **Reply #1 on:** 22 Oct 2008, 04:31 am »

So, what exactly are you saying....

satfrat · « **Reply #2 on:** 22 Oct 2008, 05:18 am »

BUY a Niteshade amp or you're hearing a lie?

Cheers,
Robin

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #3 on:** 22 Oct 2008, 07:31 am »

Quote from: Niteshade on 5 Oct 2008, 07:58 pm

The truth can only be told if the amplifier/speaker system will let it through. Most of the details within music are in the upper part of the audio spectrum- around 4k up. The interesting thing is this- most of the details are not within loud passages, but very soft and in the milliwatt range, even at high volumes. They are very easy to attenuate. It's interesting that these small details are what make music sound more cohesive. Hearing them provides a better picture of what's going on. That means a more accurate sound stage, instrument positioning and centering.

I was recently discussing with a friend how fascinating it is to hear the pedals on a piano being pushed down, a breath taken by someone playing a wind instrument, the rustling of clothes, fingers sliding along the strings of a guitar and so on. What's it like not to hear those things? I suppose if one never did hear them, nothing would be missed. These sounds are present in most well recorded music.

Shade- Damn, brother, that's what I'M talkin about (shameless, shameless, I know). But you said it and I think it describes most audiophile aspirations, too.

Niteshade · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 Oct 2008, 10:49 am »

"So, what exactly are you saying...."

Some sound systems (speakers + amp) attenuate details within music. Others boost specific frequencies (as in when someone says, "It sounds warm").

There was an intire new thread on this subject made by someone who was looking for a transparent amplifier that describes 'transparency' a hunded different ways. If I can locate it again- I'll attach the link.

bummrush · « **Reply #5 on:** 22 Oct 2008, 02:12 pm »

These sounds are present in most well recorded music. Previous words before taken from above,,,My take is any halfway decent stereo will let all this through,and it definitely doesn't have to be expensive.Solid state brings it out as well as tube.

bummrush · « **Reply #6 on:** 22 Oct 2008, 03:32 pm »

Is transparency the same as low level resolution?Thanks

JimJ · « **Reply #7 on:** 22 Oct 2008, 04:13 pm »

Quote from: bummrush on 22 Oct 2008, 03:32 pm

Is transparency the same as low level resolution?Thanks

I would think if something is "transparent" that means all the small details are noticeable, yes

As much as I like my SETs, I don't think they have a monopoly on that...not by a long shot...

Niteshade · « **Reply #8 on:** 22 Oct 2008, 09:57 pm »

I have noticed that with my equipment, subtle details are more noticable with a minimal or zero feedback tube amp versus the solid state amps that I own. The Ashly FET 500, Denon 3805 and QSC USA-850 all allow a fair amount of detail to pass, but it's veiled to me. I know for certain there's SS equipment several magnitudes better than these- so my views are skewed towards tube amps, since that is what I have the most experience with.

Slightly off the topic: Are there any SS amps that have variable negative feedback as an option? I **really** like this feature with tube amps that have it.

Niteshade · « **Reply #9 on:** 22 Oct 2008, 10:02 pm »

I don't understand what you mean, exactly. I would think that transparency requires a considerable amount of resolution. If you're thinking of resolution as how 'bright' a system sounds- that's not the way I would put it. A high resolution system will not have a tendency to roll off the highs and that will give it the potential to sound bright if the porgram material is bright. The idea of transparency as I see it is to allow the system to pass a signal without modifying it.

Quote from: bummrush on 22 Oct 2008, 03:32 pm

Is transparency the same as low level resolution?Thanks

Freo-1 · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 Oct 2008, 10:03 pm »

Quote from: JimJ on 22 Oct 2008, 04:13 pm

Quote from: bummrush on 22 Oct 2008, 03:32 pm
Is transparency the same as low level resolution?Thanks

I would think if something is "transparent" that means all the small details are noticeable, yes

As much as I like my SETs, I don't think they have a monopoly on that...not by a long shot...

From an engineering standpoint, subtle details that are easily heard at normal or lower listening levels is often because something is compressing the overall signal. Sometimes, recordings are compressed to highlight subtle details.

Getting the detail playback "in proportion" is what transparency is all about

*Scotty* · « **Reply #11 on:** 23 Oct 2008, 01:22 am »

I view transparency as how clear the window is that you are viewing the performance through. The small details can still be lost to an elevated noise floor. In other words the window is plenty clear with no fog in the space between the instruments but the amount of low level detail present stops at some point. The basement where information is has several sub-basements with even more information. The higher the resolution is, the more details you can hear in the transparent space. So there are two parts to the truth, a clear window
and getting into the sub-basements with ever higher resolution to hear ever smaller details in the recording. The end result with a High Fidelity system is greater sense realism from good recordings.
Scotty

planet10 · « **Reply #12 on:** 23 Oct 2008, 03:35 am »

Quote from: *Scotty* on 23 Oct 2008, 01:22 am

and getting into the sub-basements with ever higher resolution to hear ever smaller details in the recording.

Downward dynamic range.

dave

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #13 on:** 23 Oct 2008, 04:26 am »

Quote from: *Scotty* on 23 Oct 2008, 01:22 am

I view transparency as how clear the window is that you are viewing the performance through. The small details can still be lost to an elevated noise floor. In other words the window is plenty clear with no fog in the space between the instruments but the amount of low level detail present stops at some point. The basement where information is has several sub-basements with even more information. The higher the resolution is, the more details you can hear in the transparent space. So there are two parts to the truth, a clear window
and getting into the sub-basements with ever higher resolution to hear ever smaller details in the recording. The end result with a High Fidelity system is greater sense realism from good recordings.
Scotty

vett93 · « **Reply #14 on:** 24 Oct 2008, 06:39 pm »

The truth is the synergy between power amps and speakers is paramount.

*Scotty* · « **Reply #15 on:** 25 Oct 2008, 02:55 am »

Synergy is an often inappropriately invoked term used to describe what happens when, after investing in innumerable combinations of non-linear equipment, an audiophile dumb lucks his way into a fortuitous combination of gear that he enjoys listening to.
Synergy won't be necessary if the components don't exhibit dynamic non-linearity and are low in distortion to begin with. The truth can easily be covered up by systems which have great synergy
but don't let the signal get through the chain of zigs and zags intact. You've lost the truth even though you like how the assembled system sounds. There is nothing wrong with stopping when you think you have achieved your goal but beware of setting the bar to low. You may have missed out on hearing the best possible reproduction that could have been achieved for the dollars you have invested.
Scotty

Brown · « **Reply #16 on:** 25 Oct 2008, 03:36 am »

Nightshade. I can see where your coming from. Agree that it is possible to accomplish with different approaches but unfortunately the program material will always be the limiting factor.
Until we are able to obtain true bit for bit reproduction of the signal as the digital master offers the chase will be debateable.
IMO its impossible to know exactly what was recorded once it goes through the process and ultimately a CD.
Secondly the subjective nature of our hobby will always interfere. Some like it hot some warm some whatever.
I guess what I'm saying is that the truth although the truth is not the truth of all. Good topic.

Niteshade · « **Reply #17 on:** 25 Oct 2008, 11:55 am »

My favorite amplifier upgrade has become variable negative feedback. This function allows the amplifier to be compatible with an extraordinarily wide array of existing sound systems and tastes. As was stated earlier, synergy is very important within an audio system.

richidoo · « **Reply #18 on:** 25 Oct 2008, 01:36 pm »

Scotty, I like your answer.

Niteshade · « **Reply #19 on:** 26 Oct 2008, 12:09 am »

My home and test setup systems are very simple. They consist of a DVD player, preamp and amplifier. There are no complex signal paths in either system. I think most of the problems people have are between their speakers and the amplifier, quite possibly the preamplifier at times. My cables are not anything exotic either.

Quote from: *Scotty* on 25 Oct 2008, 02:55 am

Synergy is an often inappropriately invoked term used to describe what happens when, after investing in innumerable combinations of non-linear equipment, an audiophile dumb lucks his way into a fortuitous combination of gear that he enjoys listening to.
Synergy won't be necessary if the components don't exhibit dynamic non-linearity and are low in distortion to begin with. The truth can easily be covered up by systems which have great synergy
but don't let the signal get through the chain of zigs and zags intact. You've lost the truth even though you like how the assembled system sounds. There is nothing wrong with stopping when you think you have achieved your goal but beware of setting the bar to low. You may have missed out on hearing the best possible reproduction that could have been achieved for the dollars you have invested.
Scotty