[randog]

I just bought the property next door that is equipped with 5.6KW solar and will be hooking it up to my house.

What does this mean for my audio equipment? Will it render the analog amps unlistenable? How much degradation should I expect in the sound?

Will I be forced to go with digital amps instead?

What about sources? Will it affect my analog preamp, cdp, etc?

Thanks,
Randy

[JLM]

Seems the issue isn't solar or solar generated electricity, but rather how the switching between utility and solar power sources is made.  (You'll have to have something in order to maintain electrical power to your house during overcast/night time conditions, maybe the solar system includes large batteries?)  It would be simplier if you could sell the power back to the utility company.

[BobM]

We'll, you're at least partially off the grid. That's a good thing.

I think what is uppermost in my mind is - YOU TELL US. I'm sure there's some on these forums who would consider installing solar for the sole reason of improving their audiio.  

Enjoy,
Bob

[Sintz]

Did you see his location? Cali!  Unless there aren't any batteries involved, I'd be surprised if you ever have to draw off the grid. Lucky duck!

[jules]

Randy,

I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say you're connecting to "5.7K solar". Is this free standing or grid feedback connected?

I'm using a stand alone solar system with 8 solar panels, 12 X 2V, 560 amp hour battery bank [batteries visible in my gallery, weighs about a ton all up] and an 1800W, 24V DC to 240V AC inverter.

This is a very clean power supply with absolutely no added junk. I run an AKSA amp and other items from it and it's great. You might well get enhancement rather than degradation of your sound if the solar system is relatively modern. A square wave inverter is undesirable but you are unlikely to have one of those or a modified square wave which isn't much better.

jules

[randog]

Thanks for the responses. I am on the grid, but I really don't need to be. There's a good reason to be left on the grid: I can sell back power to PG&E for credits. Between the hours of noon and 6PM, rates are doubled for usage, but at the same time credits are doubled for feeding back into the grid. If you play the game right, you can get a lower output system (less total KW) than you would otherwise need by gaining credits at double rate (by curbing usage between noon and 6) and using them when the rate is lower.

The system also came with batteries. The inverter and battery system is by Outback. I'm not sure what type of sine wave they put out... I need to call Outback on that. I believe the current setup toggles power between the batteries and the grid. When the batteries are full, it all goes to the grid. The batteries are strictly for power outages.

Now I've told you about all I know. If I'm still connected to the grid, am I still getting all my power from PG&E or do I get it from my panels? In other words, I need to check if it's all based on an exchange of credits or if I'm using my solar directly. This system is brand new as the owner of the property installed it and decided not to build his house. I have the ability and opportunity to change it however I want as long as I work within the confines of the current hardware for the most part.

Randy

[randog]

Randy,

I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say you're connecting to "5.7K solar"...

42 panels for a total output of 5.6 KW

Is your setup strictly for your audio? The objective for mine is to run the whole house, if possible.

Randy

[jules]

No, my solar system does a great deal more than power my amp though I do have a generator for heavy demand.

42 panels is a very big solar array and might well be able to let you say goodbye to grid power [that's if you don't have some sort of contract with Outback that binds you]. You could have a look at your last power bill if it's itemised, and figure out how close your consumption is compared to your possible solar generated supply. I don't know if you have solar hot water as well but water heating takes a heap of power and it's more economical to do it direct.

The big problem you have with a solar array of that size is that to have matching storage you'd need something like 5 tons of batteries and that would be horribly expensive. There are a surprising number of big commercial organizations that have massive battery banks as back up for their offices. Sometimes it's possible to get hold of one of these for a reasonable price. They don't get much use but are routinely replaced after a set period. The battery bank I use was 15 years old when I bought it and is still fine 5 years later.

If your battery bank is relatively small [?] it probably isn't being used to carry a load but only being switched in for a daily top-up charging. For maximum longevity it's best to limit the % of total charge that you remove on a regular basis. Staying above 80% of full charge is good practice if possible.

There's many sources of info on solar power these days eg www.rpc.com.au/ and you would be find out a lot more from them. I use a lot less power now than I did when I was on mains but I enjoy it more  

jules

[thayerg]

Great thread. I know there are a few audio nuts who'd salivate at the thought of having practically limitless DC on tap. All those hypex and tripath amps seem to thrive on high-current DC power. And this is one application where class D efficiency would be way more than icing on the cake so to speak.

[bubba966]

5.6kw doesn't really sound like enough to run fully off the grid. (the last projector I installed used a little over 10kw to power just the lamp! )

Are your major appliances (stove/oven, dryer, water heater, furnace) gas? Maybe if all of those were gas, you used CF lighting (instead of regualr incandescant), & your house is well insulated you could get away with that little power.

[randog]

Bubba,

5.6KW is actually a lot of power. 2 or 3 years ago when I was looking into buying solar, the rep was trying to talk me into 5KW. I told him if I invested that much moola I didn't want a bill... nada... zero. So we started looking at 7.5KW. However, with a little efficiency and playing the game on the grid like I outlined previously, 5.6KW should be plenty for a 2200 sq' home and a family of 4. The grey area comes in with AC use in the summer, mainly. Uh, and maybe your projector!  

I keep hearing about audiophiles salivating to get clean power off the grid, but I guess I don't understand it completely. One of the reasons I posted this is because I want to understand how this affects my current analog systems and whether they will adapt or if I should consider mixing it up to match better with my new power source. The Outback website ( http://www.outbackpower.com/Inverters.htm ) states, "Just like the local utility grid, the inverter produces true sinewave AC electricity for your stand-alone or backup power needs. Computers, TVs and pumps are just some of the examples of modern electronics that last longer and run better when powered with true sinewave electricity from an OutBack inverter."

Randy

[randog]

jules, great information... thank you. The guy who fixed my roof a couple of years ago is completely off the grid and assembled his system with battery banks like you describe. Perhaps it's time to give him a buzz...

My system is expandable to 7.2KW... Let's see... I currently have 42 165 watt panels with a true rating of around 145.2 and the inverters are 91% efficient = 5.55KW. To get to 7.2KW, I would have to add 12 panels. I think I would feel pretty comfortable getting off the grid with that... but 6-1/2 tons of batteries might fill the barn!  

[randog]

Are your major appliances (stove/oven, dryer, water heater, furnace) gas? Maybe if all of those were gas, you used CF lighting (instead of regualr incandescant), & your house is well insulated you could get away with that little power.

Propane: stove/oven, water heater, dryer. Furnace is electricity, but I heat my home with wood stoves, mainly. I'm also on a well.

The house is well insulated but I have shitty windows and lots of them since I'm on a hilltop with views. My next crusade is replacing 24 windows.  

[Sintz]

5.6KW is equivalent to two 15-amp circuits and a single 20-amp circuit.
Might be enough for some, but in new england you have a furnace on top of all your regular appliances and lights. Wouldn't even come close on my house. Yeah, I've popped the 100A main breaker once or twice (cooking, furnace, 2 computers, christmas lights, stove, fridge, dishwasher). Doesn't take much.
 

[randog]

Shayne, have you actually looked into this? I don't know a lot about it (I will be forced to in short order however), but my system has two GVFX3648 Inverters each with 60 amp breakers with a maximum AC output current of 70 amps each. You are suggesting that you would need 5.6KW X 5 = 28KW of solar in your situation which is ridiculous (no offense intended!    ) No one would sell you that much and it would cost you roughly $300K to get a setup like that (based on the fact that my setup cost the previous owner $60K).

Not to mention that I get a lot more sun than you!  

I believe you may be a victim of surging or poor grounding or wiring, eh?

Randy

Edit: oops. When I reread your post you said 2 15-amp circuits AND a 20-amp. I just registered the 20-amp. So, in reality, if you wanted to run 100 amps of power at once, you would need roughly double what my system puts out... is that right? Even still, 11KW of Solar is way overkill for those infrequent occasions you want to run everything at once. And... where the hell you gonna put 80 solar panels anyway?   It's just not practical... and being practical is what alternative energy is all about.

[bubba966]

As Shayne says 5.6kw doesn't go very far if most of your main appliances are electric. The electric water heater I just installed at my place 2 weeks ago uses 5.5kw.

Start adding up all of the other stuff Shayne mentions and it's not hard to see why a 100 amp panel would blow the main breaker.

[randog]

Of course, a coventional water heater, furnace heating and AC are all pigs. Fortunately, there are alternatives for all but AC that I know of (if anyone knows of another source of power for AC let me know). Besides those 3, however, I don't know of anything near that draw in a normal home (except that projector of yours). You can have limitless power from the utility company if your pockets are deep enough, but you're not going to be running out to purchase an electric water heater or furnace if you are on a limited supply. If you want to run all your electricity pigs all at once, then solar isn't for you. If you want the best of all worlds, then you get solar and stay on the grid tapping the utility company for when you use 100 amps worth of power. My system is a grid-tie system, so I don't think I have a choice there. Although being totally grid free sounds nice, having backup insurance is nice as well.

Many, many people are living almost seamless lives with 5KW of Solar. I have friends who are on 5KW and they are absolute pigs on power! They have a large house and 2 kids. They have farm animals and ponds and acres of irrigation. Their well pump is probably running all day long. They also have a pool. Well, their monthly utility bill is around $50. I'm sure it would be WELL over $300 without the solar... maybe $400.

Anyone care to comment on what I should expect WRT my audio systems?  

[jules]

Randy,

it seems you aren't in a position to go free standing at the moment though I'd suggest it's a great way to go if you get the chance in the future.

The 5.6KW rating is perhaps misleading in that all it means is that in ideal conditions [clear sky, sun reasonably well up, panels aligned etc] they will generate the 5.7KW. There are many other situations in which they don't approach this figure. At the same time what is available to you at a given instant is not tied to this figure [unless Outback place a restriction on what you can draw]. The other deciders are, firstly, the output of your inverters and secondly, the capacity of your batteries [if you are talking free standing]. For short term use you might be able to draw many times the 5.7KW.

Aside from hot water the air conditioning does seem to be the biggest problem and the only solution I know of for that is good passive house design. I prefer design to  air con. for many reasons but it's not everyone's cup of tea.

It seems this might not be relevant to your situation but there is a commonly used back-up battery that comes in 2V, 2170Ah size. The approx weight of each one would be 500lb and you could use 12 for 24V or 24 for 48V. I was somewhat tempted by these partly because the whole thing is just so amazingly massive   .  For all of the weight of these things they don't take up a huge amount of space ... maybe they'd make great sound deadening mass? These behemoths can be bought 2nd hand for about $300 each. The input voltage of your inverter would have to match the battery bank of course. 24V and 48V inverters are the most common for larger systems.

As I said in an earlier post, your solar backed system will probably be superior to mains supply. You are probably using a high speed switching inverter. The operating principle of these is similar to that of the Nuforce amp. You're more likely to have probs. with the mains part of your system for the usual reasons but I don't know how the interlinking of solar and mains works out in relation to power quality. Maybe you could isolate a pure solar section or possibly if you add panels, you could design the additional section separately.

jules

[JoshK]

I'd love to go solar sometime in the future but I'm afraid I don't quite get the sunshine needed here in the Northeast.  You have a gift there in sunny cal, why not use it.  Even if you cut your useage down to 30%, I'd be really happy myself.  And it is a good enviromental thing to boot!  I was sorta thinking about it here in NJ, but scrapped the idea given the space I have to work with and the lack of sun.  

Inverters I hear are noisy though. If I were to go Solar, I'd power my audio system via DC, not AC, even with the safety risks (although some previsions (sic) would need to be accepted).  I'd then just use regulators instead of PSUs.  Avoid the inversion and back again, much the same way we try to avoid ADC then DAC conversions when unneccesary.

[ctviggen]

I've often wondered why this isn't more popular.  When I lived in AZ, we had 300+ sunny days (and I mean sunny, as in zero clouds) per year.  If the roof was completely covered with solar cells, you'd have to produce a bit of power.  Many of the houses out there are all electric, though, so you'd only get a percentage of the AC useage, and the AC there is cheap -- about 9 cents per KWH, from what I remember.  (To put that in perspective, in CT, it's 16 cents per KWH.)