AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: jcotner on 31 May 2012, 10:06 am
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Danny if you were going to design an ultimate 2 way nearfield monitor
that had no cost constraints, what sort of general parameters would
you set? I say no constraints but let's say under 3K for drivers and
components. If you think one of the N speakers is already there
I would find that impressive, but just wanting to see if you ever
considered a design that's a little outside your normal box.
And I talking about a true reference level monitor. Flat and
accurate to an extreme. Something good enough for any
top engineer in Nashville or LA or NYC to consider top rate.
Which drivers (indulge me here), ScanSpeak, SEAS, Accuton
Neo, GR-drivers, all fair game.
Cabinet configuration (ported, sealed, transmision line).
Something that probably wouldn never make it into your product
line up because it didn't make sense for the masses.
If I am wasting your time on a dream speaker I understand, but
really couldn't resist the temptation to ask and it's something I'd
like to build some day if I find the right design.
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Sometimes I wonder if you guys have been intercepting my e-mail communications. :?
I am doing design work for a new company that involves designs centered around performance objectives without cost constraints. You won't find any info on the company. It is completely new. The company is called Serenity Acoustics.
They have in fact asked me to design a mini-monitor that can be used in any room, near or far away from a rear wall yet still maintain a flat and accurate response in any room.
Initial testing leads me to believe this mini-monitor could set a new bench mark. How about a very small mini-monitor that is only 6.5" wide, has an extremely accurate response, is time and phase coherent, has 93db sensitivity, is an easy load to drive with a relatively flat impedance that is a pure resistive load, requires no current demand from your amp, and plays to a -3db of 20Hz.
Sounds too good to be true huh?
The Mini monitor uses a pair of Neo drivers covering from 200Hz and up. The stand that holds the little monitor has a pair of 8" servo subs in a side firing configuration. The Neo's are super fast and clean presenting the clearest mid-range that I have ever heard from a speaker. And the servo subs are covering from 200Hz and down. The servo subs are completely adjustable from damping settings low frequency extension filters. So they will play as low as you want them to or roll off starting as high as 40Hz.
The cabinets are somewhat complex to build utilizing some curved shapes and thick walls. It will look really sharp! This is no DIY design. These will be sold fully assembled and with a factory direct model. So prices will be reasonable. You just pick your finish.
How's that?
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When?
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When?
I wish I could give you a date of completion. I am working on several designs for them all at once and several cabinet builders are working on prototype cabinets. So much of what takes the most time is not within my direct control.
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My impression is that in the past few years, state of the art speakers are increasingly using novel (and proprietary) drivers whose performance was not previously possible.
Ribbons can do things that many (most) dome tweeters can not (though of course, many ribbons have ther own problems). That said, a major problem with ribbons is blending them with traditional cone mid/woofers, as the latter invariably sound "slower" than the ribbons. Based on what I've heard with the Super V's, the servo subs may be an ideal candidate to solve this problem.
I hope Danny wil keep us posted regarding this new monitor.
Larry
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I wish I could give you a date of completion. I am working on several designs for them all at once and several cabinet builders are working on prototype cabinets. So much of what takes the most time is not within my direct control.
:whip:
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Sometimes I wonder if you guys have been intercepting my e-mail communications. :?
OK yeah well I've been driving over from Bonham, Tx to Iowa Park and intercepting your wi-fi.
Didn't you see the van on the street? ..... Sorry never been there and don't own a van. :wink:
This is a design that has always been of interest to me and I've got a speaker now that's
supposed to do that now, but didn't build it because the guy that sold it to me has abandonded
DIY for finished speakers. I insist that whatever I use and recommend has to be kit. Otherwise
I would have gone PMC or Meyers for these monitors a long time ago.
What about a base speaker without the sub that maybe doesn't have to be a swiss army knife
for all rooms? Let the builder handle the subs and integration but give them the killer performance
from 200Hz up. That's really what I was hinting at. For reference monitoring, imagining and performance
above a couple hundred Hz is where it is at anyway. BTW I've been using some IL-60s for over 10
years that are set up kind of like what your describing and they work well and are great speakers
but not for recording work.
Also maybe make the amplifier requirments a little more rigid, like an Aragon (which I use) or
Bryston or something like that. Something that could allow the speaker to be a kit.
I guess kit is kind of a major factor to me. That's being said what is the target retail price
for this contract speaker you're doing?
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Sounds too good to be true huh?
Yes it did...until I read the part about the stand being part of the system, you sly dog :P
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How's that?
F'ing awesome! I wonder if Roy J over at GMA would pour some marble "cabinets" for your project.
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Are the bases sealed or ob?
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If they are side firing servo woofers, probably not OB. That would put the listener in the null.
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HAL is correct the stands with the side firing 8" servo subs are sealed.
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If I am wasting your time on a dream speaker I understand, but
really couldn't resist the temptation to ask and it's something I'd
like to build some day if I find the right design.
Sigh...I feel like my thread kind of got hijacked somewhere along the way or
perhaps I'm being ignored. :roll: but I did say build which implies kit.
So I do understand busy (which undoubtely you are) but I'm perfectly willing
to call this a someday speaker just to get it classified as a kit.
In the meantime I'm getting some reference headphones until I can find the speaker
described above in kit form. :D
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If they are side firing servo woofers, probably not OB. That would put the listener in the null.
I should have picked up on that :duh:
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Sigh...I feel like my thread kind of got hijacked somewhere along the way or
perhaps I'm being ignored. :roll: but I did say build which implies kit.
So I do understand busy (which undoubtely you are) but I'm perfectly willing
to call this a someday speaker just to get it classified as a kit.
In the meantime I'm getting some reference headphones until I can find the speaker
described above in kit form. :D
Are you wanting Danny to design you a pair? I read this as a rhetorical question instead of someone waiting to build this speaker. I'm sure you can pay him to design you your dream speaker.
If he has the time of course.
I say rhetorical due to this thread about top shelf monitors.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=103720.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=103720.0)
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Are you wanting Danny to design you a pair? I read this as a rhetorical question instead of someone waiting to build this speaker. I'm sure you can pay him to design you your dream speaker.
If he has the time of course.
I say rhetorical due to this thread about top shelf monitors.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=103720.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=103720.0)
I originally framed this hypothetical monitor as a kit (maybe in a subtile way) and Danny says
here is a speaker but it's not a kit and that's the last I heard about the hypothetical monitor as
a kit. So yes I would wait for this speaker as a kit because what Danny offered up is a finished
speaker and my hypothetical monitor is a kit as described originally.
To me this is a little different than a top shelf monitor because I'm talking about a reference
monitor. Room type is very specific and for nearfield mixdown use. Probably a speaker for a small
minority anyway.
I'm a degreed design engineer and one thing I understand well is NRE. Danny could be contracted
to build this one off speaker but after I coughed up the design cost and factor in lead time I just
as well buy the PMCs or the Meyers. I was kind of pressing for a speaker that I just haven't quite
seen in kit form yet. I had one I thought was close but it's not available anymore and that
designer doesn't do kits anymore either. Maybe this is just not a speaker that makes sense for the
DIY community. The complex cabinet is what makes the PMC special so I'm not surprised Danny
has taken the same route. I can build a pretty complex cabinet but once again maybe the market
is just not there.
And that's my story and I'm stickin to it.
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Danny, when you say "The Mini monitor uses a pair of Neo drivers covering from 200Hz and up" you mean a Neo10 and a Neo3 per side?
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:D sign me up ..... just what i have been looking for ..... :D Send me a pair soon as they are done Danny...... :D
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Forget all this stuff. I want to see the new GR Research designs. :)
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:D so interested in a good monitor ???? :D
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I was just kinda hoping we'd get to see some of that stuff too :D
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Well you were talking dream speaker. And what this little mini-monitor is a bit of a dream. No other monitor sized speaker has 93db sensitivity and hits a -3db of 20Hz. All of coarse that's all due to its integrated stand with servo controlled bass.
Cabinet complexity moves this design away from the kit market as does the price. I have been doing this for a while and kits above 2 grand don't move real fast compared to lower priced designs. Most people in that price range and above want completed speakers.
I do have new X Series kits coming though. X-Pro, X-Optima, and X-Otica all use my new woofers the Peerless tweeter (one of the best domes on the market) in a wave guide.
X-Pro might be just what you are looking for. Ahead of the market woofers seen here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=97188.msg1050682#msg1050682 And this tweeter: http://gr-research.com/gr-t3tweeter-1.aspx (again, with wave guide). This will be a two way design and a kit. It will be available in two versions. One will be a small floor standing cabinet with rear terminated transmission line similar to what I did with my N3. That will give it a -3db below 40Hz, maybe even mid 30's. In this version it will be similar to (but a step or two above) a Merlin or maybe even a YG Carmel. Then it can also be built as a sealed box mini-monitor as well. I think I can list this kit for around $600.
How's that?
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Danny, when you say "The Mini monitor uses a pair of Neo drivers covering from 200Hz and up" you mean a Neo10 and a Neo3 per side?
Yes, the whole product line for Serenity Acoustics uses Neo 10's and Neo 3's (a custom Neo 3). Most of these are open baffle designs too.
BTW, the front page sure looks much cleaner and a lot easier to navigate through. I like it!
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I have been doing this for a while and kits above 2 grand don't move real fast compared to lower priced designs.
I see your point, but I bet if you did a kit in the $1500-$2000 range it would dust anything for
miles around. Especially if it was like a MTM with no sub.
And probably would be a dream speaker to me because I built it. :D
How's that?
Now you're talking but I'd most likely still spend the two grand on an ultimate monitor without a sub
if you had one. After you finish the X-pro I'd be curious to see the measurements though.
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Yes, the whole product line for Serenity Acoustics uses Neo 10's and Neo 3's (a custom Neo 3). Most of these are open baffle designs too.
BTW, the front page sure looks much cleaner and a lot easier to navigate through. I like it!
Arghh :duh: Ive been dreaming about doing something like that for a while. Congrats to Serenity though! Looking forward to seeing the products. I really wanted to do a giant ob array with a big line of servos. You could probably drive the mains with something like atma-spheres too. Should be amazing!
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I guess I can "settle" :lol:, for an ob array like the ls9's with the new woofs, and a few servos. Can I call dibs on those? Haha, hope there's a kit...
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I see your point, but I bet if you did a kit in the $1500-$2000 range it would dust anything for
miles around. Especially if it was like a MTM with no sub. And probably would be a dream speaker to me because I built it.
I do have a 16 ohm version of that new woofer coming as well. It is a pretty high Q though and would need a lot of air space.
After you finish the X-pro I'd be curious to see the measurements though.
The measurements will look incredible or I won't release it. There won't be a flaw on them.
I really wanted to do a giant ob array with a big line of servos.
Me too. Oh wait, I am. :green:
You could probably drive the mains with something like atma-spheres too.
I have amps even better than that. :green:
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I guess I can "settle" :lol:, for an ob array like the ls9's with the new woofs, and a few servos. Can I call dibs on those? Haha, hope there's a kit...
All planar magnetic drivers other than the servo woofers. Likely powered and using digital crossovers that will really be the first digital crossovers of its kind. The first true audiophile level digital crossovers. It will even be time and phase coherent.
Not a kit though... Way to complex of a cabinet design. Some of it may actually be carbon fiber as well.
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Ugh, you're killing me :lol:, I was thinking directly driven with crossovers on the electric side or dacs in front too. The atmas set up like that, speakers wired to 16ohms, and driving the neos load would be real happy. Looking forward to the amps you run on them too. I was even envisioning something with carbon or all milled aluminum. Curious what the baffles/cabs will look like now.
Was hoping you might do a neo8/new woofs ob array with tge other comment as a kit...? :green:
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All planar magnetic drivers other than the servo woofers. Likely powered and using digital crossovers that will really be the first digital crossovers of its kind. The first true audiophile level digital crossovers. It will even be time and phase coherent.
Not a kit though... Way to complex of a cabinet design. Some of it may actually be carbon fiber as well.
OH BABY! :-)
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I was even envisioning something with carbon or all milled aluminum.
Very simple to do. The problem is that there are few that can and will pay for that...
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Yeah, at this level you're talking a comercial product with the cost of other speakers that size.
Sorry OP, this threads gone everywhere :oops:, too much excitement, I second your thoughts on an all out classic monitor design. The berylium scan tweeter and revalator woof would work nicely! The new x series in wave guides will be interesting. Curious how the tweet will compare to other wave guide designs. A lot of those use pro audio type tweeters.
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jcotner,
Have you heard Danny's version of the Usher Tiny Dancer? It's an amazing monitor. You can find a pair on the used market and you will not be disappointed. I still regret selling mine :duh:
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Hmmmm, any chance for the "stand" of the dream speaker as a kit?
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Sorry OP, this threads gone everywhere :oops:, too much excitement, I second your thoughts on an all out classic monitor design. The berylium scan tweeter and revalator woof would work nicely! The new x series in wave guides will be interesting. Curious how the tweet will compare to other wave guide designs. A lot of those use pro audio type tweeters.
I don't mind the thread moving around a little bit. There are a lot of new and interesting new designs being discussed.
Don't get too carried away with drivers using exotic materials. That doesn't equate to better sound. And while that tweeter may boost a Beryllium dome, the air cavity behind it is quite small and the break up or ringing in the upper ranges is fairly substantial.
A fancy frame doesn't buy you anything either. The best thing about that frame (Scan Speak Illuminator woofer) is really how open it is to the air flow on the back side. However, it is still a metal frame and still rings when excited. And in other ways it gives up a lot to our new woofer.
Adding a wave guide to that Peerless tweeter is a pretty big deal. This allows a crossover point in the 1kHz to 1.2kHz range. This is huge. Allowing a tweeter to handle 1kHz to 2kHz verses a woofer is a REALLY big deal. The speed and resolution levels are not even comparable.
Regarding a woofer handling that range. The movement of the cone at that wavelength is fairly short, but at the same time the woofer is having to handle long exertions of the lower wavelengths. So it is a big compromise. That compromise of handling longer exertions is what holds back most two way designs compared to a three way design. The mid in a three way no longer has to handle the lower wavelengths. The result is cleaner mids. The same goes for ranges above 1kHz. A woofer no matter how good is no match for a good tweeter.
Plus the Scan Speak is not all that great for 1 to 2kHz either. The comparable sized Scan Speak Illuminator woofer has a third again more moving mass than my new woofers. The heavier moving mass can be an advantage in allowing the driver to handle ranges below 60Hz or so better. But it can be a real disadvantage in the upper ranges. The heavier moving mass also takes away sensitivity. Plus that Illuminator woofer has quite a bit of upper range break up that can be a big issue. The Revelator woofers are in the same boat. To match the light weight moving mass of my new 6.5" woofers you have to drop back to 5" Illuminator or Revelator woofers. And then your sensitivity levels drop off into the 83 to 85db range. After 5 to 6db of baffle step loss you are in the 80db or less sensitivity ranges. That's not my idea of usable ranges for a mini-monitor. That's the problem with using off the shelf and generic commercial drivers rather than purpose built custom drivers.
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jcotner,
Have you heard Danny's version of the Usher Tiny Dancer? It's an amazing monitor. You can find a pair on the used market and you will not be disappointed. I still regret selling mine :duh:
Those did turn out pretty well. They won just about every award with every magazine that reviewed them. I think Stereophile still lists them in the Class A recommended list too.
I still think my N2X kit is pretty comparable and a bit give and take in some areas.
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Hmmmm, any chance for the "stand" of the dream speaker as a kit?
I think Ruben mentioned designing something like that to be used as a kit or something. He might even cut some flat packs for them or something. You could then use them with any mini-monitor.
Brian (Rythmik Audio) already has the 4 ohm and 8 ohm 8 inch woofers in stock with the lower Q values. The motor structure is slightly larger than my higher Q version that is designed for open baffle applications so the cost is higher. They will be $10 more per woofer. They only need .35 cubic feet of air space per woofer though. :thumb:
Brian has not mentioned anything about them because he is still finalizing the new smaller sized servo amps to match them.
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Good info on the scan stuff. Havn't looked into their specs much, but heard a couple good thing about the tweeter, maybe people just like the new buzz of berylium. I think there were a couple designs floating around with the illuminator and it that got some decent press. Really looking forward to your new woofers now too.
The encore tweeter in the wave guide will be sweet, figured you'd probably get it crossed over really low. In comparison to the pro style tweeters I'm thinking it might have better low level detail and play better at lower volumes. Will it hold up at the crazier high volume with the lack of compresion and dynamics the pro audio tweets excel at? I'm talking 110+db range with no compression or chance of blowing. Probably a little give and take depending on ultimate goals for the speaker.. At those levels it prob not a small monitor though.
jcontner, maybe this will help you out. The x series pro kits sound like they should be great, especialy for the money. Worth trying.
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Danny some of us guys can build some pretty complex boxes. Bent laminations
are not a big deal. Even fiberglass (carbon is easy to incorporate) is not beyond
a lot of folks ability. That's exactly the way my neighbor built his airplane.
And I do bent laminations every now and then.
Have to say that very high end DSP stuff has been around a while. The studios
and cinema production folks have been using it for a time. I know because I
did that sort of work once upon a time.
I got a few DSP things I could run past you, but not on the internet.
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The encore tweeter in the wave guide will be sweet, figured you'd probably get it crossed over really low. In comparison to the pro style tweeters I'm thinking it might have better low level detail and play better at lower volumes. Will it hold up at the crazier high volume with the lack of compresion and dynamics the pro audio tweets excel at? I'm talking 110+db range with no compression or chance of blowing. Probably a little give and take depending in ultimate goals for the speaker..
That Peerless (Encore) tweeter is a 94db sensitivity tweeter. The wave guide kicks the lower ranges up to almost 105 levels. So it handles dynamics really well.
The compression drivers always sounded a little hard to handle to me until I started modifying them by removing the rear chamber. This unloaded the diaphragm and created a much smoother and more relaxed sound.
I think the Peerless tweeter will be smoother still and more accurate by producing a near flat response over its entire range. I got the Super-V tweeter really smooth over all but the top octave. The top octave was still a little rough and needed a notch filter to control it. The result was very good, but not near as smooth as the Peerless tweeter.
Oh, and there is another really good thing about this combo of the wave guided Peerless tweeter and my new woofers. A 1kHz wavelength (near crossover point) is about 12" long. And with the Peerless wave guide only being 6" in diameter the acoustic centers of the tweeter and my new woofers are less than 7" apart. So the vertical off axis is very consistent and hardly changes at all even in the extreme vertical off axis. The wave guide also helps maintain a very flat and controlled horizontal off axis. So the over all in room response can be much smoother than just about any other speaker out there.
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Danny some of us guys can build some pretty complex boxes. Bent laminations
are not a big deal. Even fiberglass (carbon is easy to incorporate) is not beyond
a lot of folks ability. That's exactly the way my neighbor built his airplane.
And I do bent laminations every now and then.
There is always a possibility I can get something worked out for you on one of these new Serenity models. It would have to be replicated to a T though. Any baffle changes or loading changes on these planar magnetic drivers really alters the response. I really don't have the authority so say for sure what can be let out or released with these for a special client, but I will work on it. Sometimes prototypes give moved around pretty cheaply once they have served their development needs.
Have to say that very high end DSP stuff has been around a while. The studios
and cinema production folks have been using it for a time. I know because I
did that sort of work once upon a time.
I got a few DSP things I could run past you, but not on the internet.
Oh, I know that is has been around a long time. I was working with a client that was designing his own digital crossovers back in the year 2000. He was way ahead of anything else at the time.
But current systems, even new DEQX systems are FAR from high end. Most of them literally suck life out of the music. My current DAC and digital play back system over shadows them badly. In fact I get MUCH better sound from my digital system and a passive crossover than any of the current digital crossovers. Some of them are using good DAC chips now. But the amount of processing, poor parts quality of other components, and noisy power supplies negate everything.
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Some cool things in in the works for sure! How do the wave guides play with ob midrange sections( x-oticas are something like that if I recall)? Any thing funky having the directional control in the tweeter with dipole mids? Or anything to be gained by doing a matching or offset bipole arrangement on the back? You'd lose the ob advantages though.
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Most of them literally suck life out of the music.
You guys are determined to drive me over the edge. :)
Figuratively, not literally.
Larry-once an editor, always an editor-B
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:D :D :D
Looking forward to the new X series!!
Ben
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Well you were talking dream speaker. And what this little mini-monitor is a bit of a dream. No other monitor sized speaker has 93db sensitivity and hits a -3db of 20Hz. All of coarse that's all due to its integrated stand with servo controlled bass.
Danny does the integrated stand with servo controlled bass come with a build in amp? I know this is still in the planing stages but can you tell us if it will be released in the coming year? Will there be somewhere we can audition one before we buy or try one at home?
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Danny does the integrated stand with servo controlled bass come with a build in amp? I know this is still in the planing stages but can you tell us if it will be released in the coming year? Will there be somewhere we can audition one before we buy or try one at home?
The servo amps are built into the stands. I would like to say that the first completed, finished, and playing version will be ready before the end of the year. And there will be a means to hear before you buy.
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Well you were talking dream speaker. And what this little mini-monitor is a bit of a dream.
I went back and looked at the post I started the thread with.
There was a cost constraint of $3000 for drivers and crossover
and I was assuming a DIY cabinet.
$20,000 for a speaker that is not a kit may be a dream speaker,
but not what I had in mind. I suppose the V might classify
except it's not a 2 way near field monitor.
Anyway it was really more of a hypothetical question, which was
the reason I asked for general parameters. So Danny did answer
some of those but it was for a speaker he was building anyway
at a completely different price point.
I've since gotten a speaker that Danny doesn't make anymore
and will be happy with it for some time, because it's the closest
thing to what I was asking for and was under $3000.
BTW this new Serenity monitor falls into the "reason I don't bother
to go to the Maserati showroom" type of catagory for me. :dance: