[gkinberg]

Hello all,

I am the happy owner of 1st generation Songtowers with dome tweeters, second gen Songcenter with dome tweeter and boston acoustics surrounds. I use an Onkyo TX-NR3007 receiver to tie in the speakers for 2 channel and HT. I am interested in getting a 3 to 7 channel external amplifier anywhere between 100 to 250 watts to add power to the system. Very broad criteria, I know.

This weekend I auditioned a Rotel rmb-1565 (100 W/channel x 5, class D) and a B&K 6000 (100 W/channel x 6, class AB) to determine if a separate amp would make an improvement in my system. Both amps made a positive difference in the sound of my system but in both cases the improvements were very subtle and hard to clearly identify and to put into words. In both cases, the separates seemed to make the music clearer and crisper with maybe more separation between the instruments. There were many other changes but as I said it was subtle.

I have been considering new or used van alstine 240/3, a proceed hpa3, or an AT1805. I really would rather not spend more than $1000. I realize that I will have to stretch my budget for any of the above amps.

However, I am starting to reconsider whether I should spend $1K+ on an amp if the improvement will be so subtle and in some cases vague. I realize that my Onkyo might be inhibiting the improvements that a quality amp could make to the sound quality of my system.  Some informed input or comments would be appreciated for this slightly perplexed noob.

Thanks, Garth

[MichiganMike]

I drive my SongTowers with a Parasound A21 and have been pleased with the result.  You might consider a Parasound 5125 amplifier.  This five channel amp offers 125 watts into 8 ohms (185 watts into 4 ohms).  Like new, factory refreshed units with full warranty are available for $1000. 

[bpape]

If it were me, I'd concentrate on just upgrading the amp for the front 2/3 channels. Maximize the use of funds to get a better 2 channel amp and keep using the other channels of the Onkyo for now. 

Either the Van Alstine or one of Klaus' Odyssey amps would be a definite improvement IMO.

Bryan

[coke]

If it were me, I'd concentrate on just upgrading the amp for the front 2/3 channels. Maximize the use of funds to get a better 2 channel amp and keep using the other channels of the Onkyo for now. 

Either the Van Alstine or one of Klaus' Odyssey amps would be a definite improvement IMO.

Bryan

I agree with this.  Spend the money on 2 good channels instead of 3 cheaper.   Another thought is to buy something like the AVA 3 channel amp now to power your 3 front channels.  Later on you could purchase a better 2 channel amp if you felt the need, and use the 240/3 for your center and surrounds.


Also before you purchase an amp, you might want to try to audition a system that lets you hear the difference better preamps and DACs make.  In your current situation, adding an amp seems to be the easiest, but hearing what better preamps and DACs can do for you will help you determine where to spend the most money.

[WGH]

+1 for the Van Alstine suggestion, the 240/3 would make a huge improvement in sound. I use a AVA 440+ for the front 2 channels (no center) and an Adcom 5400 (125W/channel) for the rears. I think using a different amp for the rear surround speakers is no big deal since it is just used for movies.

When I first installed the AVA amp I didn't think the sound changed very much but I was oh so wrong. This spring I sent the 440 in for an upgrade and replaced it with a well regarded Anthem amp. The magic was gone. The sound was grayer, imaging became fuzzy and the stereo image was flat with no depth. I use an Insight+ pre-amp and there was no synergy at all. Get the 240/3 then later improve your front end with an AVA pre-amp with HT bypass and you will be amazed how good 2 channel can sound.

Wayne

[cacophony777]

Here are some fun reads:

http://www.matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm
http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf

I'm not advocating this, but it's nice to get all sides.

[Nuance]

If it were me, I'd concentrate on just upgrading the amp for the front 2/3 channels. Maximize the use of funds to get a better 2 channel amp and keep using the other channels of the Onkyo for now. 

^This guy that I quoted above is a wise man, and I completely agree with his advice.

I recommend a used Parasound Halo A21 (just like Mike has).  It's a HECK of an amplifier for the price (in a league far above the Classic series amps), but it will break your budget by a few hundred.  I prefer it to the recommended Van Alstine amps, but YMMV.

[jcake5]

Hi Garth,

I understand your pain when it comes to "am I really stepping up".  My home theater uses a upper midrange Dennon HT amp and in the direct pure stereo mode, with the optical input the sound is very clean and detailed.  My better half can hear the difference.  However, my DVD player has the first generation ESS dac and when I use the Denon analog input with direct pure stereo the sound is sort of hollow.  However, connect the analog output to my Cambridge A640 V2, and the sould is again clean with better midrange clarity.  To me it is all about the right combinations and knowing your system strength and weakness.  I do believe that if you want good two channel sound then use two channel equipment.

My next change is to a DIY Pass B1 and class A two-channel FET amp.

Have fun finding your audio balance.

Cheers, Eric

[gkinberg]

Hi Gang,

Thanks for your input; much appreciated. I hear what you've said but my system is equally music and HT. Therefore, it is important to me to have the same amplification across the front three speakers. That is why, initially, I am looking for at least a three channel amp.

I know many of you have recommended "higher end" two channel amps because presumably they would be significantly superior to the multi channel ones I auditioned and I should definitely hear a difference. But by that token, the amps I auditioned should be significantly superior to my receiver and I should have heard a clear and distinct improvement in sound. The fact that it was subtle tells me that other adjustments should be made before I move onto improved amplification, such as acoustical treatments and/preamp.

After those improvements have been made, then perhaps the benefit of a "better" amplifier will be more audible. I think I will broach the idea of acoustical treatments to my lovely wife and see what kind of response I get. I know I can search but any suggestions on reasonably (cheep) priced acoustic panels. I’d be curious to know about covered as well as non-covered panels, because if I really have to go that route, I may cover them with canvassed “art” to make them more attractive.   

Thanks, Garth

[opnly bafld]

Thanks for your input; much appreciated. I hear what you've said but my system is equally music and HT. Therefore, it is important to me to have the same amplification across the front three speakers. That is why, initially, I am looking for at least a three channel amp.

Are your front 3 speakers identical?
If not, then it won't matter, buy the best 2ch amp (a lot more choices than 3ch amps) you can afford.
Relieving the HT receiver of front L&R duties will allow it to provide better power to the center and surrounds.

Lin

[TJHUB]

I see you have decided a path, but I wanted to make one comment.  My setup is a 2-channel rig that is home theater capable (but VERY HT capable).  I have a preamp with HT-bypass and run a pair of mono-block amps for my main speakers.  I run my center channel and surrounds off my receiver and it works and sounds perfect to my very discerning ears.  So what I'm saying is that I too would be in the camp of getting a solid 2-channel amp for music and let your receiver do the work for the rest. 

[davidrs]

I run my center channel and surrounds off my receiver and it works and sounds perfect to my very discerning ears.  So what I'm saying is that I too would be in the camp of getting a solid 2-channel amp for music and let your receiver do the work for the rest.
 

TJHUB and others:

Thoughts on using my tubed integrated for L / R and a SONY AVR for Center, Surrounds and Passive Subs?

Realize I will have two separate volume controls, but am willing to accept that.

I've been running all channels analog direct into the SONY AVR.

Saw your posts, so figured you might have some thoughts.

Thanks,

David.

[Atlplasma]

TJHUB and others:

Thoughts on using my tubed integrated for L / R and a SONY AVR for Center, Surrounds and Passive Subs?

Realize I will have two separate volume controls, but am willing to accept that.

I've been running all channels analog direct into the SONY AVR.

Saw your posts, so figured you might have some thoughts.

Thanks,

David.

A hybrid setup would probably be iffy for HT. I suspect you would be better off using the receiver to power all the speakers. You could then use the tube gear for stereo playback. I've used that configuration in my own home. If you don't want to swap cables on the L/R mains, you could consider using a Niles switch to toggle the L/R between amp sources.

[ratso]

that first abx test was severely flawed in that the "human abx" guys that were switching the systems were in plain site of the participants and any non-verbal cues they were giving would influence the results. jest sayin.

[davidrs]

A hybrid setup would probably be iffy for HT. I suspect you would be better off using the receiver to power all the speakers. You could then use the tube gear for stereo playback. I've used that configuration in my own home. If you don't want to swap cables on the L/R mains, you could consider using a Niles switch to toggle the L/R between amp sources.

Atlplasma,

Thanks for your advice. I've used the Sony AVR to drive all channels and have been very happy with its performance for movies.

But have wondered about the tubed int - avr combo. I did get tired of swapping the cables and prefer not to use a switcher.

Easiest solution is an extra pair of speaker cables, need to invest in similar quality speaker cables, for the extra sets. Some cosmetic downsides to this, but a livable solution.

Thanks,

David.

[TJHUB]

TJHUB and others:

Thoughts on using my tubed integrated for L / R and a SONY AVR for Center, Surrounds and Passive Subs?

Realize I will have two separate volume controls, but am willing to accept that.

I've been running all channels analog direct into the SONY AVR.

Saw your posts, so figured you might have some thoughts.

Thanks,

David.

I am certainly no authority in this situation, but I too would shy away from any "hybrid" setup like you proposed. 

A couple of years ago, some audio friends turned me onto the idea of an integrated 2-channel / HT setup.  Music is by FAR most important to me, but I've always had a decent HT setup, so going backwards wasn't an option.  I personally think the best solution starts with the right preamp.  A preamp focused for music that has HT-bypass opens up a whole new world of performance if you are willing to take a look at it.  There is some expense, but the rewards are astounding.

 

[opnly bafld]

Realize I will have two separate volume controls, but am willing to accept that.

I've been running all channels analog direct into the SONY AVR.

If you mean using your disc player's 5ch analog out, with the front L/R going to your tube integrated and the rest going to the Sony, I see no reason not to.

Lin

[davidrs]

If you mean using your disc player's 5ch analog out, with the front L/R going to your tube integrated and the rest going to the Sony, I see no reason not to.

Lin

Lin:  Correct. From the BDP:

- L/R analog out to the tubed integrated.

- Center & Surrounds analog out to the C/SrL/SrR or C/L/R (driving the L/R Surround speakers) of the ss AVR.

- Sub to the AVR (traditional LFE) or LFE in on the active crossover, set at say 30-40Hz.

Does that make sense?

My primary concern is that the center's sq integration with L/R being close enough / be acceptable for me.

Thanks,

David.

[opnly bafld]

My primary concern is that the center's sq integration with L/R being close enough / be acceptable for me.

If your 3 front speakers are not identical and you are happy with the sound so far then using the tube should not change anything other than hopefully cause you to enjoy 2ch more. 

Lin

[gkinberg]

^This guy that I quoted above is a wise man, and I completely agree with his advice.

I recommend a used Parasound Halo A21 (just like Mike has).  It's a HECK of an amplifier for the price (in a league far above the Classic series amps), but it will break your budget by a few hundred.  I prefer it to the recommended Van Alstine amps, but YMMV.

Nuance, Just curious, what amplifier are you currently using. I've loosly followed your search for a new amp.

Thanks, Garth