[oldmp3]

Using a Denon 988 for these great Salk speakers for 3.1 only.  Some good improvements also with GIK acoustic treatments.

Now I'd like to upgrade the amplification and use the Denon as a pre-amp only.  Budget is no more than $700-800 new/used.   No plans to go to 5.1 or 7.1.

Looks like the Emotiva XPA-3 is the best value.  But I'm also looking at 2-channel amps for L/R music only and staying with the Denon for the center.  Some 2-channel amps I've considered are NAD C272, Parasound A23, and some late 90's amps like Adcom and Rotel.

What do you all think about adding a 2-channel just for music and not having the same kind of amp behind the center?  The center is important to me for dialog/HT.

Any recommendations for 2 or 3-channel in this price range?

Thanks.

[Art_Chicago]

I got my Van Alstine gear used in the same price range as yours, and the synergy between STs and AVA is great (no surprise here if both Jim Salk and Frank recommend it). Frank also makes Insight 240/3 channel amp for $1200 new. I would call him, he's got enough used gear to find the best match. It is 30 day satisfaction guarantee. Good luck.
P.S. I also have a NAD 340 , it is ok for the money, but no comparison with AVA.

[zybar]

The ATI multi-channels amps are a very good match with the Song Towers.

I use an ATI 1506 to drive three Song Towers and I really like that combination. 

George

[BradJudy]

The ATI multi-channels amps are a very good match with the Song Towers.

I use an ATI 1506 to drive three Song Towers and I really like that combination. 

Which might also mean that a used Outlaw amp like a 750/755 would be a good match - they were made by ATI. 

[MichiganMike]

I am using a Parasound A23 with my SongTowers and find this to offer excellent audio quality.  While the SongTower is a fairly easy load to drive the impedance reportedly varies from 4 to 16 ohms, so it is comforting to have an amp that handles loads in this range with ease and has good current capability.  You can find a used Parasound A23 in the $500 to $600 range.  Also, check Audioadvisor.com which when I checked today had an open box A23 under $700 with full warranty. 

[rahimlee54]

Which might also mean that a used Outlaw amp like a 750/755 would be a good match - they were made by ATI. 
[/quote]

Who makes the rest of their stuff?  As an aside.

[jd3]

Who makes the rest of their stuff?  As an aside.

ATI makes all their multichannel amps (here in the USA).  Speakers are rumored to be made by Snell.  Subs?  Based on Hsu designs but I don't know who makes them.   My 990 and 970 were both made overseas.  The 990 is based on the Sherwood design.

[oldmp3]

Thank you all for the comments and suggestions.

I'm looking more at the Parasound A23. Also a used Citation 4-channel, and will check into AVA.  But I think powering L,C,R from the same amp is the way to go.  I've also seen good deals on the older Parasound HCA-1203A.  So I'm leaning toward at least a 3-channel amp.

[zybar]

Thank you all for the comments and suggestions.

I'm looking more at the Parasound A23. Also a used Citation 4-channel, and will check into AVA.  But I think powering L,C,R from the same amp is the way to go.  I've also seen good deals on the older Parasound HCA-1203A.  So I'm leaning toward at least a 3-channel amp.

I recently heard the A23 on my Emerald Physics CS2's and have to admit that I wasn't very impressed. 

The sound was muddled, wooly, and lacking in speed and clarity.

The AVA and ATI amps will substantially outperform this particular Parasound amp IMHO.  The ATI will be at roughly the same price point as the A23, while the AVA will be more expensive.

George

[rahimlee54]

Thank you all for the comments and suggestions.

I'm looking more at the Parasound A23. Also a used Citation 4-channel, and will check into AVA.  But I think powering L,C,R from the same amp is the way to go.  I've also seen good deals on the older Parasound HCA-1203A.  So I'm leaning toward at least a 3-channel amp.

I recently heard the A23 on my Emerald Physics CS2's and have to admit that I wasn't very impressed. 

The sound was muddled, wooly, and lacking in speed and clarity.

The AVA and ATI amps will substantially outperform this particular Parasound amp IMHO.  The ATI will be at roughly the same price point as the A23, while the AVA will be more expensive.

George

Does that mean the outlaw amps will be on par with the parasound or are the components of the ATI and outlaw roughly the same?

[zybar]

Thank you all for the comments and suggestions.

I'm looking more at the Parasound A23. Also a used Citation 4-channel, and will check into AVA.  But I think powering L,C,R from the same amp is the way to go.  I've also seen good deals on the older Parasound HCA-1203A.  So I'm leaning toward at least a 3-channel amp.

I recently heard the A23 on my Emerald Physics CS2's and have to admit that I wasn't very impressed. 

The sound was muddled, wooly, and lacking in speed and clarity.

The AVA and ATI amps will substantially outperform this particular Parasound amp IMHO.  The ATI will be at roughly the same price point as the A23, while the AVA will be more expensive.

George

Does that mean the outlaw amps will be on par with the parasound or are the components of the ATI and outlaw roughly the same?

Sorry, I don't have any direct experience with the Outlaw amps.

Also, the ATI amp I own (1506) was a $2000 amp brand new (in its day).  I believe the A23 lists for $1000.

That being said, I stand by my comments on the sound quality and feel that the extra $200-300 the ATI 1506 would cost somebody over the A23 in the used market is more than worth it.

George

[oldmp3]

Just to close this topic - I just got a used Rotel RB-1080, which I'm very happy with.   

Hearing things I did not realize were present in my favorite music, and just an overall improvement in the "depth" of the music and "presence", IMO.   For my room and speakers, going from the 110W/channel receiver to the 200W+/channel Rotel was a significant improvement.  I would say it approaches the gain I felt from the GIK acoustic panels/bass traps I previously added.

I know many people have said a "medium powered" receiver can work and Jim recommends 80-250 SS watts.  For me, going to 200+ made a nice difference.

[MichiganMike]

I recently heard the A23 on my Emerald Physics CS2's and have to admit that I wasn't very impressed. 

The sound was muddled, wooly, and lacking in speed and clarity.

The AVA and ATI amps will substantially outperform this particular Parasound amp IMHO.  The ATI will be at roughly the same price point as the A23, while the AVA will be more expensive.

George

George, did you hear the Parasound A23 with the SongTowers?  I have used the A23 with my SongTowers for several months and would not characterize it as sounding muddled, wooly and lacking in speed and clarity.  This is also not a description that I have read in any of the several reviews on the A23 amp.  I also have Parasound A21 and A51 amps and find the A23 to have a similar sonic signature when not driven to its limits. 

I accept your assessment that the Parasound A23 may not be a good match for the Emerald Physics CS2.  I have read that some owners of the CS2 have suggested while efficient the match with amp is important.  On the other hand the SongTowers are a fairly easy load to drive that seem to perform well with a variety of amps.  It is a stretch in my opinion to conclude from your experience with the CS2 that the A23 would display similar shortcomings with a very different speaker, like the SongTowers.   

[zybar]

I recently heard the A23 on my Emerald Physics CS2's and have to admit that I wasn't very impressed. 

The sound was muddled, wooly, and lacking in speed and clarity.

The AVA and ATI amps will substantially outperform this particular Parasound amp IMHO.  The ATI will be at roughly the same price point as the A23, while the AVA will be more expensive.

George

George, did you hear the Parasound A23 with the SongTowers?  I have used the A23 with my SongTowers for several months and would not characterize it as sounding muddled, wooly and lacking in speed and clarity.  This is also not a description that I have read in any of the several reviews on the A23 amp.  I also have Parasound A21 and A51 amps and find the A23 to have a similar sonic signature when not driven to its limits. 

I accept your assessment that the Parasound A23 may not be a good match for the Emerald Physics CS2.  I have read that some owners of the CS2 have suggested while efficient the match with amp is important.  On the other hand the SongTowers are a fairly easy load to drive that seem to perform well with a variety of amps.  It is a stretch in my opinion to conclude from your experience with the CS2 that the A23 would display similar shortcomings with a very different speaker, like the SongTowers.   

Just the CS2's and I don't think we were driving it to anywhere close to its limits.

What probably is a bigger factor is that I am used to hearing or using gear that performs at a much higher level than the A23 does.

I don't know why it is hard to believe that in comparison to gear costing 2x or more that the A23 would sound the way I described it. 

While the SongTowers are definitely a more forgiving speaker than the CS2's, I don't believe the sonic characteristics I heard would be radically different if I tried the A23 at home with the SongTowers against the ATI or AVA amps I mentioned.

Just curious, what is the rest of your associated gear?  Have you compared your Parasound amps to other amps?

BTW, in my limited listening to the A51 amp, I did not hear the negatives I heard with the A23 and I didn't think the A23 and A51 sounded very similar.  Of course since I didn't perform any extensive comparison or try either amp at home, you can take my comments in that context.

George

[MichiganMike]

Just the CS2's and I don't think we were driving it to anywhere close to its limits.

What probably is a bigger factor is that I am used to hearing or using gear that performs at a much higher level than the A23 does.

I don't know why it is hard to believe that in comparison to gear costing 2x or more that the A23 would sound the way I described it. 

While the SongTowers are definitely a more forgiving speaker than the CS2's, I don't believe the sonic characteristics I heard would be radically different if I tried the A23 at home with the SongTowers against the ATI or AVA amps I mentioned.

Just curious, what is the rest of your associated gear?  Have you compared your Parasound amps to other amps?

BTW, in my limited listening to the A51 amp, I did not hear the negatives I heard with the A23 and I didn't think the A23 and A51 sounded very similar.  Of course since I didn't perform any extensive comparison or try either amp at home, you can take my comments in that context.

George

Interesting that you refer to "being used to hearing or using gear that performs at a much higher level than the A23 does."  Sounds like you have made up your mind the A23 is inferior or flawed whether used with the CS2 speakers or other speakers.  Is this based on an objective assessment over a wide range of conditions with different source equipment, preamps, speakers and cables?  For example, I have found the A23 sounds better when using the balanced inputs. 

To answer your question on associated gear, I use my Parasound A23 amp with a Classe CDP-10 and a Parasound C2 controller operated in direct analog input.  I have owned other amps, including Rotel and Carver, and other preamps.  I have listened extensively to AVA amps and agree these sound very good. IMHO the Parasound A23 is a good combination with the SongTowers at its price point.

It is not at all surprising to me that an amp may sound better with one set of speakers than another and that different listeners will have different preferences or different points of diminishing returns.  Not that I think the A23 is state of the art, but neither would I describe the sound as muddled, wooly and lacking in speed and clarity with the SongTowers.  My response was in large part an effort to provide counterpoint on the merits of considering using the A23 with SongTowers from someone that has extensive experience with this particular combination.  If you can conclude without hearing this combination that it must not be up to your standards, I respect your right to your opinion.   

You also suggest gear costing 2X more should sound the way you describe it.  I have heard and suspect you have heard plenty of gear that costs substantially more and does not always sound better.  We all have our preferences and are willing to accept different trade-offs.  In my experience there are few absolutes in this hobby, but it is worthwhile to benchmark with other enthusiasts. 

I enjoyed reading the interview with Jim Salk at the link below in which he recounts recommending to a customer seeking the best system in a certain price range to purchase Veracity HT1 and a used Panasonic XR45 digital receiver.  This digital receiver would not be my first choice for an amp, but it makes the point that the difference in amps may not always be the controlling factor.
http://aventhusiast.com/audio/interviews/interview-jim-salk-of-salk-sound

Thanks for sharing your frank opinions. 

Mike

[zybar]

Thanks for the detailed reply Mike.  You make many good points and I think we are agreeing on quite a few things (including price doesn't always translate into performance). 

For example, I have had in many more expensive multi-channel amps and compared them to the ATI 1506 and didn't feel that they offered a performance improvement or that their performance improvement was worth the additional cost.  So the ATI 1506 has remained in that system for almost two years.

I apologize if my wording was too strong or possibly offended you in any way.

I will see if a dealer friend can bring over the A23 and we can try it in place of the ATI 1506 in my HT.  If this happens, I will be sure to post my thoughts on how the A23 sounds compared to the ATI 1506 with the SongTowers.

As for Jim's comments...there are many viewpoints on how to build a system and where the majority of the funding can make the biggest impact.  I'll save that topic for another thread and another day.

George