[cloudbaseracer]

I have a Squeezebox Duet that I use the co-ax digital out on and wonder what differences there would be with those 0's and 1' and the 0's and 1's coming from a Sonos ZP90 player? 

Is there a reason one should be better than the other?

Thanks,

James

[woodsyi]

I am sure the 0's and 1's will be in the same sequence.  I don't know about the timing of those same 0's and 1's though. 

[srb]

I am sure the 0's and 1's will be in the same sequence.  I don't know about the timing of those same 0's and 1's though. 

Hence the much debated, measurable, but not easily translated into quantifiable (and subjective) auditory perception, concept of jitter.
 
Steve

[woodsyi]

I am sure the 0's and 1's will be in the same sequence.  I don't know about the timing of those same 0's and 1's though. 

Hence the much debated, measurable, but not easily translated into quantifiable (and subjective) auditory preception, concept of jitter.
 
Steve

Brilliant. 

[srb]

Brilliant. 

Except for my spelling of "perception", now corrected!
 
Steve

[cloudbaseracer]

Other than theory which I can appreciate AND should have expected- my fault totally for not readily admitting there would be "possible" differences.  Improper question phrasing I know.

Do any of you have first hand experience with the "audible" differences?

Thanks,

James

[wilsynet]

What I've found is that a very jittery transport paired with a DAC that doesn't reduce jitter very well will yield a somewhat hard digital sound.  NOS DACs have great tonality and will make the sound more round, and DACs like the Bryston and Benchmark and Empirical that claim to reduce jitter to inaudible levels will trade the hardness for treble refinement.

When you take what is not a very jittery signal to begin with and you remove even that small amount, then you add more realism, you hear the ambient space better and you hear more refined treble, enough to rival good heavy vinyl on a pretty decent vinyl rig. 

Treble performance that rivals vinyl is exactly what I heard out of the Empirical Audio DAC at a BAAS meet, and to a lesser extent the Off Ramp 3 which I now own. 

This is all assuming your DAC is capable of taking advantage of a less jittery signal of course -- not all DACs are created equal.  To be honest, I used to hear night and day differences between the Benchmark and the Red Wine Audio DAC.  As I remove the jitter, they both start to sound more similar than different.  The RWA was more musical but not quite as detailed, the Benchmark was detailed but clinical.  Now the RWA's treble performance has been kicked up a notch and the Benchmark has lost its clinical quality.

I doubt swapping a Sonos for a Duet or vice versa will make a dramatic difference either way.  You may hear improvements, but I would think small improvements.  The bigger problem is likely to be the integrated DAC of your HT receiver.  Ditto for the amp section.

[richidoo]

The Sonos has SEVERE jitter that was until recently plainly audible in my system. The SB3 and Duet are less so, but still not great. Jitter on Sonos into my Altmann DAC with minimal jitter reduction sounds like emphasized treble, hardened treble, less refined, also spatial confusion, less PRaT, less focused coherent sound overall. With a good transport like Oracle, Northstar or even Samsung HD841 the Altmann sounds like heaven. Even SB3 does a fine job with linear PS.

Recently I switched to Twisted Pear Buffalo32 DAC which eliminated the jitter distortion from the Sonos.

If you open up the Sonos you will see some ugly things in there. Switching PS is very close to sensitive components, with minimal shielding. I was going to lay them out separately in a larger chassis with linear PS, but now with the jitter problem licked, I don't feel the need. The ESS Sabre 32 DAC is supposed to fix it all, and it sounds like it does.

[cloudbaseracer]

Rich,

Just to clarify- are you wiring in the Twisted Pear DAC inside the chassis and removing the stock DAC the Sonos ships with?  If so, this is way more than I am capable of doing.  Besides- I am looking to just get the digital information out of the Duet or Sonos.

James

[wilsynet]

He is using a DAC assembled from the Twisted Pear Buffalo Sabre DAC kit, which uses the ESS Sabre 32 bit DAC chip.

The Sonos SPDIF coax output goes into the Twisted Pear DAC which acts as source for his preamplifier/integrated.

[cloudbaseracer]

Why was this moved?  I guess I am having trouble using this site?  To me this is clearly a thread that should go in the discless circle.

I don't get the move.


James

[JohnR]

Why was this moved?  I guess I am having trouble using this site?  To me this is clearly a thread that should go in the discless circle.

I guess you are indeed having trouble using the site, as you did not in fact post it in the Discless Circle... would you like it moved there?

[richidoo]

Sorry for my delayed response cloudy. The ESS Sabre32 DAC is supposed to remove jitter inside the DAC chip. So it can take jittered up SPDIF input and sort it all out. Whatever it's doing it sounds nice and cures whatever is wrong with Sonos digi-out. 

[cloudbaseracer]

JohnR,

Yes, please put in discless circle.  That was what I thought I had originally chosen.  I believe I was doing several posts at the same time and that caused my mistake.

Richidoo,

I do not think the system you are using is what I am looking for.  Since I am using the Panasonic "power dac"  I really just want a good digital signal coming out from the Sonos or Squeezebox.  So, I am wondering what one would do to just clean up the digital out in the Sonos?  I know you mentioned that the power supply is close with minimal shielding.  Seems like it may be less desirable in a digital out situation than a Squeezebox Duet anyway.

Thanks,

James

[Quiet Earth]

 I used to hear night and day differences between the Benchmark and the Red Wine Audio DAC.  As I remove the jitter, they both start to sound more similar than different. 

Do you think it's possible that when you insert such electronic circuitry to remove jitter, you homogenize the music signal and that is why it's harder to tell the difference between two dacs?

[NewBuyer]

 I used to hear night and day differences between the Benchmark and the Red Wine Audio DAC.  As I remove the jitter, they both start to sound more similar than different. 

Do you think it's possible that when you insert such electronic circuitry to remove jitter, you homogenize the music signal and that is why it's harder to tell the difference between two dacs?

Yes I personally think that is possible.  Although output stages can make a still bigger audible difference, IMO...