[nathanm]

Although I'd like to think my vinyl setup is pretty dang swank (Michell Gyro SE, Benz ACE cart, Monolithic Phono amp) I find it difficult to agree with the superiority of treble reproduction.  Peaky, trebly transients seem to get eaten up with modulation distortion.  It just doesn't seem as "clean" sounding. "Warm" definitely, but not "clean".

Sometimes I do definitely agree that vinyl is better, (I particularly love cranking up "One World" by the Police in vinyl) A truly clean play of brand new vinyl only lasts maybe a dozen times with dilligent care in my experience, eventually crackles find their way in there.  It's not the most stable medium either, it gets slowly worse sounding over time.  And the wee little treble wiggles will be the first to wear down.

Vinyl has this bizarro world effect on people.  Audiophiles, who are supposed to be such golden ears able to pick up on the tiniest of nuances are in love with vinyl but if you play a record for Joe Schmoe he immediately picks up on the surface noise aspect to criticize.  The audiophile seems to ignore it or listen through it.  Weird.  But then I suppose the claim is made that Joe Schmoe is listening through the "digititus" of CD as well.

Absolutely Carlman, the craft aspect of recording is definitely in decline.  I can feel it firsthand just by recording my own stuff.  It's SO easy to get bogged down in technology instead of practicing and trying to sound better.  Convenience is the main selling point of digital audio.  For instance, if I had the skill and talent to properly maintain an analog multi-track I'd certainly use that instead of an ADAT or computer.

As far as live albums go one of the best I've ever heard is the band Trainwreck.  (if you go to this link you can hear samples youself)  This one exhibits the proper aural cues and ambience for the listener to suspend disbelief.  I don't know how they recorded it, but it sounds very realistic.  Very much like a show with actual good PA.  As a rule I hardly ever buy live albums, but this one was a winner for hi-fi nerd factor at least.

[TheChairGuy]

Ah, hell Nathan...that sounds like a winning set-up...don't know why you're not getting what you'd like from it.

The only things I can think of is to make sure the Michell is isolated (it's non-suspened, I think).  Properly isolated from vibrations, it's a much more worthwhile upgrade than anything more spent on cartridge, preamp, etc.   A tire inner tube works, some squishy puds do, too or you can use the pricier route of Gingko Audio or BrightStar Air Mass stuff.

Then, clean those records thoroughly.  Using a soft carbon fibre brush in between plays....and cleaing each new or old purchase with Buggtussel (for mold and bacteria), then dousing it with MicroCare Premier (to remove Mold release compounds that it began life with)   then the Record Doctor cleaner on the Nitty Gritty vacuum unit....finally, an application of Last Record Preservative to maintain condition for 200 plays.

The sum total of this cleaning ritual renders a remarkably quiet surface and reveals spatial cues on the record that CD hasn't come close to. I really don't even have clicks and pops anymore....only a hiss on most records.  The noise level is surely higher than any CD (noticed only in between cuts), but quiet enough not even to be noticed when Vladimir Horowitz is playing the softest and most delicate of notes  

I'm not talking about 'love' or 'romance' of my vinyl set-up...I'm talking more intelligible words and instrumental lines (aka resolution or clarity) AND no teeth-clenching during listenings sessions.  

I woulda' laughed in someone's face 60 days ago if I was told that vinyl was superior than CD...but here I stand (actually, sit) completely befuddled.  But, far happier for it.

[nathanm]

No, that's not the case; I definitely love my turntable and think it sounds great, but I can still hear the problems of the format that's all!  At first I was really annoyed by inner track modulation hash, but I've either gotten used to it, it's gone away, or something.  Hell, how could a person not like such a beautiful hunk of metal and acrylic fashioned into such a lovely shape!  

The Gyro is suspended, there's three springs inside those post cover things.   Although I can still make singers sound like they're sitting on a washing machine by simply wiggling the rack!  Vibrato for the entire mix! The rack itself is the TNT Flexi with the threaded rod\MDF shelves so it's not the lead-pillar-into-bedrock approach.  But as long as I don't wiggle the rack it's fine.

I also use a wet vac cleaner as well as a carbon fiber brush.  But most of my collection is very much USED vinyl which I suspect has been worn with far less lofty gear in its past lives.

[TheChairGuy]

I also use a wet vac cleaner as well as a carbon fiber brush. But most of my collection is very much USED vinyl which I suspect has been worn with far less lofty gear in its past lives.

Mine's mostly Thrift Store bought, too.  The Buggtussel Vinyl-zyme Regular Strength 8 oz., the Last Record Preservative and Microcare Premier stuff won't set you back but another $90 or so....and will do wonders for your enjoyment.  Yeah, it's a pain, but really these three are 1x and done deals.  

If you're getting anything fed back into the music with a wiggle on your rack - that's contaminating.  I can shake my table, wrap it on the sides and it nary mistracks or thumps.  The homebrew silicone damping trough was the final thing needed to isolate the arm, cartridge and table from the world.  It wasn't until I did it (for $10 or so for the silicone - ha   ) that I experienced that 'thickness' to the sound.  It's gone as far as I can hear it now.

The little aluminum foil trough is ugly, but the benefits are many.  You have minimal plinth-ing there, so you might not be able to.  But, if you can....do it with all haste, man.  Really, it's the thing that separates a good performance from a great one in a TT.

$100 more in cleaners and a damping trough experiment might just have you changing your tune  

[Folsom]

Chair Guy most more expensive turn tables do not have any thing to skate on like your level plate you put silicon on. They just have a counter balancing weight that keeps them level... Which is better because there is no resistance, well except the line on an anti-skating weight if there is one.

[Marbles]

Computer tech is here now.

I'm using a computer, ripping with EAC, playing with Foobar2K, upsampling with Secret Rabbit to 24/96, outputting with ASIO to an Empirical modded USB I2S Turbo Off Ramp to an EA modded P3a DAC.  It's really much easier then it sounds.

To me it sounds like vinyl without the noise floor.  No digititis, great soundstage and layering.  Really, the best of digital and vinyl thrown together without any of the negatives.  It's pretty cool.

OK, there is a learning curve, and in my case the computer is wired to my stereo, but the new modded SB's are wireless (with their own learning curve).

Once you go to a computer based system, I think it would be awefully hard to go back.

Oh, one othe negative is no dust jacket art or liner notes...

I'm guessing here that the reason it sounds like vinyl to me is the lack of jitter.

[TheChairGuy]

Computer tech is here now.

I'm using a computer, ripping with EAC, playing with Foobar2K, upsampling with Secret Rabbit to 24/96, outputting with ASIO to an Empirical modded USB I2S Turbo Off Ramp to an EA modded P3a DAC.  It's really much easier then it sounds.

To me it sounds like vinyl without the noise floor.  No digititis, great soundstage and layering.  Really, the best of digital and vinyl thrown together without any of the negatives.  It's pretty cool.

OK, there is a learning curve, and in my case the computer is wired to my stereo, but the new modded SB's are wireless (with their own learning curve).

Once you go to a computer based system, I think it would be awefully hard to go back.

Oh, one othe negative is no dust jacket art or liner notes...

I'm guessing here that the reason it sounds like vinyl to me is the lack of jitter.

Well, given how much time and $$$ you've sunk into both TT and CD playback (and everything else ) ...that's a mighty strong statement that resonates with me.

I was in Steve Nugent / Empirical Audio room at T.H.E. Show in 2004 and 2005.....and in 2005 he was using a Toshiba laptop as his dedicated server.  I think the same DAC, his then fave, the Perp Tech unit.  I couldn't hear a difference between the two years, tho he implored me to hear the wildly better dynamics in 2005.

Frankly, I thought it sounded great both years (and prompted me to spend $2000 upgrading my DAC, Power Supply and Sony player).

My current front end just doesn't add up to the overall virtues of my relatively cheapo TT.  Perhaps I ought to look further at computer-based audio....tho I have to say I'm strangely satisfied with my tunes now (on vinyl).  However, Jean-Pierre Rampal still stinks - either on CD or vinyl

And, my $50 JVC has wonderful AUTO-RETURN!!!  The fully manual ones are such a P-I-A

[lcrim]

I recently set out to improve my sources because I felt that was where my systems needed help.  I had the Technics 1200 MKII with the full boat mods from KABUSA including the fluid damping, in fact I own Kevin Barrett's test mule including the record clamp.  I just got a decent phono pre to play with it, the Jolida JD9.  I also started into PC based audio and have a similar digital setup to Marbles w/ a USB device playing Foobar.  The soundstaging abilities of this kind of digital setup are incredible and at the price just a nobrainer.
I have the same recordings in digital and analog that I can compare.  I agree w/ Nathan's point that vinyl does seem to degrade with frequent play.  I do listen past the surface noise.  I believe that because I first heard most of these on vinyl , I know how I expect it to sound and analog is it.
BTW, I have a lot of Beatles in both mediums and it has always baffled me that George Martin is held in such high esteem because their recordings all sound so flat and two dimensional no matter the medium.  
I am awaiting new dacs from Scott Nixon and I expect that to improve my digital playback some but at the end of the day it really comes down to the fact that I can't get certain things on vinyl and other stuff on CD.  I have pretty much given up on SACD and I never did get started with DVD-A.  I have a copy of the Stones "Exile on Main Street" on vinyl that sounds so f--king real that you can't believe it.  Rickie Lee Jones' "Evening of My Best Day" I only have on Redbook and it is just an extraordinary recording.
I think that today, one can get seriously good playback of either medium for fairly low prices and in digital that's because of PC based audio.  Chair Guy actually stated my model for great analog at a reasonable price but that's not to say that it is the only model.   I don't think that this kind of quality was available a few years ago when I started back into this stuff.  Or maybe I've learned some and my tastes have developed.

[alpha_03]

Howdy guys and gals,

If I might suggest, how about everyone name their source players, that way everyone has a point of reference from which you speak:

YBA CD2

Audio Refinement CD Complete

Thorens TD 318MKIII

Cartridge- one of 3: Shure Ultra 500, Shure V15-III, Grado Silver, All MM.

I have been told to give MC a try, but I cant see for what reason- the above all sound very good to me, all be it, I have never owned a MC design. The old- "if it aint broke why fix it" comes to mind.

I personally feel that my source players are very, very good, and very true to what was recorded, and, at a price point that isn't astronomical. However, at this point I have tried many different brands and types of amplifiers and I believe that the source player(s) and the pre-amp have far more of an influance over what one is allowed to hear then any component in the audio chain, except of course, the most important factor- the speakers.

Now if what I just said holds true, then it stands to reason that analog (viny or tape), or digital (CD- ect.) will sound very different from system to system, for the most obvious reason- one's speaker system of choice.

Given that most of us here like to listen at an spl of say at least 85-90dB  (an average I use due to most speaker designs- see your speaker documentation) Analog will most likely sound better, however, if you have speakers that are 90dB and higher you might prefer Digital- or, visa versa. I think that Dynamic range plays a critical role in how pleasing ANY sound is that we humans hear.

Lets not forget things like frequency responce, channel seperation, distortion levels, and S/N levels- these do if fact have very audable influances over everyones listening preferences.

Granted the above may not be the case for everyone, but it is something to consider- dont ya think?

BTW, for me it's all about the recording, for example, I'm listening to Iron Madien on the old 12", but I also have it on the new 4", they sound totally different- to me the vinyl has a wider more open sound stage then the disc, however, is that to say that my CDP's are inferior- nope, not by a long shot- it's all in the recorded material, that is- IMHO.

[TheChairGuy]

I just love the utter cost effectivelness of vinyl...tho computer audio seems to be dimming that difference between the two mediums.

About MC's....at nearly all the shows I've attended that have played a belt drive TT, with an Moving Coil - I keep finding them lightweight and not to my liking.

MM's are less expensive to manufacture, track better for similar money, and to my ears...sound more substantial. I think I'm in your camp, Alpha (I also owned a Thorens TD-316 for 16 years - now using a direct driver with excellent results)

By no means have I heard all the available MC's out there....but they pretty much start at $200.00; whereas you can get darn fine performance from MC's for half that amount and less.

So, for me, it's about value....I just hope I don't hear some knockout/killer $1000 MC anytime soon and am tempted otherwise