AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Selah Audio Owners => Topic started by: lokie on 18 Oct 2018, 07:41 pm
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What is the top of line monitor that I could build that has an 8ohm load minimum and say,... 92db or better?
And... I have subs.
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What is the top of line monitor that I could build that has an 8ohm load minimum and say,... 92db or better?
And... I have subs.
What are your desired maximum cabinet dimensions? Amplifier being used?
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My everyday driver is an Eico HF-60 w KT-77's. Around 40watts Push Pull and using the 16ohm taps.
One of these days I'll pick up a SET in the 10 watt range... which might be asking too much of a monitor. I also have 20 watt 6L6 I am tinkering with.
Regarding cabinets.... I have a few classic monitors in mind as inspiration. Can I post pictures? or would that be uncool?
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My everyday driver is an Eico HF-60 w KT-77's. Around 40watts Push Pull and using the 16ohm taps.
One of these days I'll pick up a SET in the 10 watt range... which might be asking too much of a monitor. I also have 20 watt 6L6 I am tinkering with.
Regarding cabinets.... I have a few classic monitors in mind as inspiration. Can I post pictures? or would that be uncool?
Sure - feel free to post them.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=185734) (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=185735)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=185736)
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I didn't know there were monitor speakers (multi driver) that were 92db or higher....
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/high-efficiency-monitors-list
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http://www.reference3a.com/decapo.html
92db of pure sonic grandeur.
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I didn't know there were monitor speakers (multi driver) that were 92db or higher....
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/high-efficiency-monitors-list (https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/high-efficiency-monitors-list)
Right.
To be perfectly honest, I don't know much about monitors... just kind of guessing at the specs. But maybe the subs will help if it doesn't need to go below 80hz like most commercial offerings?
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(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/Ls3_5a.jpg/220px-Ls3_5a.jpg)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LS3/5A
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I don't know about the LS3/5A as a diy project. Also, the sensitivity couldn't be much lower than those. There are plenty of diyable small speakers out there, some close to 90db.
http://www.jantzen-audio.com/atiri/#prettyPhoto
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Sorry, my bad. Just realized this is in the Selah Audio circle. :D
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All good. We're still in inspiration mode.
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You'll need something larger than the speakers that were posted as examples. To cross to your sub is most likely going to be a 8" or larger woofer in order to get enough bandwidth.
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Does bi-amping help? How about Passive Line Level Xover scheme betwean the amps and the Pre-Amp.?
Maybe the xover doesnt add that much to the inefficiency?
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Does bi-amping help? How about Passive Line Level Xover scheme betwean the amps and the Pre-Amp.?
Maybe the xover doesnt add that much to the inefficiency?
Buy a Benchmark AHB2 and then you can choose from a myriad of speakers.
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Rick what are your thought on the Accoustic Elegance TD8M? Would it be capable of hitting 92bd in a monitor with support from separate subwoofers? Maybe it would work with your hybrid ribbons?
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Rick what are your thought on the Accoustic Elegance TD8M? Would it be capable of hitting 92bd in a monitor with support from separate subwoofers? Maybe it would work with your hybrid ribbons?
I've not tested the TD8M. Based on my experience with the TD6M I would look at another driver.
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I don't think they're around anymore, but Parker Audio used to make monitors that were something like 95dB.
Does bi-amping help? How about Passive Line Level Xover scheme betwean the amps and the Pre-Amp.?
Maybe the xover doesnt add that much to the inefficiency?
Bi-amping is generally nice. Even better if the crossover is before the amps.
Buy a Benchmark AHB2 and then you can choose from a myriad of speakers.
I have one. Absolutely fantastic amp.
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A high efficiency speaker is typically made of a horn tweeter and a fairly large woofer cone and most likely a 3-way to smooth out any gaps in the dispersion pattern. I wouldn't call that a "monitor" but tube amp lovers are hoarding things like the Klipsch (heritage speakers like the Heresy) for this very reason.
50 years ago amplifier power was scarce and expensive and speaker manufacturers paid a lot of attention to efficiency. Nowadays amplifier power is both cheap AND efficient (class D) and speaker manufacturers paid attention to size instead. Modern speakers, like those Selah Audio ones Rick make, both sound better and are smaller, the only downside was they were not as efficient as yesterday's speakers, but to solid state amp users this is the least of worries.
Today, TUBE amplifier power is still scarce and expensive, so we may have to look into the approaches taken in the post-war period for inspiration.
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I faced a similar issue in trying to find a high sensitivity DIY speaker with the different requirement of good quality but affordable for a father-son project. We decided on this build that I documented here:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=139584.0
It turns out it included like Cyberstudio suggested a waveguide/compression driver for the high frequencies. At the time I did try out the speakers with my 2A3 tube amplifier with good result. My son still uses these speakers and loves them.
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Reference MM de Capo i (https://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1203reference3a/index.html)Description: Two-way reflex-loaded loudspeaker for use with stands 26-28" high (not included). Drive-units: 1" impregnated fabric-dome tweeter, 7" woven carbon-fiber cone woofer. Impedance: 8 ohms. Sensitivity: 92dB/W/m. Frequency response: 44Hz-20kHz, ±3dB. Crossover frequency: 3kHz.
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/reference-mm-de-capo-i-loudspeaker-specifications#UD19DLAphbZDoSl2.99
There's a BE version as well.
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I mentioned these earlier in this thread. Outstanding speakers IMO.
Reference MM de Capo i (https://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1203reference3a/index.html)Description: Two-way reflex-loaded loudspeaker for use with stands 26-28" high (not included). Drive-units: 1" impregnated fabric-dome tweeter, 7" woven carbon-fiber cone woofer. Impedance: 8 ohms. Sensitivity: 92dB/W/m. Frequency response: 44Hz-20kHz, ±3dB. Crossover frequency: 3kHz.
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/reference-mm-de-capo-i-loudspeaker-specifications#UD19DLAphbZDoSl2.99
There's a BE version as well.
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Reference MM de Capo i (https://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1203reference3a/index.html)Description: Two-way reflex-loaded loudspeaker for use with stands 26-28" high (not included). Drive-units: 1" impregnated fabric-dome tweeter, 7" woven carbon-fiber cone woofer. Impedance: 8 ohms. Sensitivity: 92dB/W/m. Frequency response: 44Hz-20kHz, ±3dB. Crossover frequency: 3kHz.
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/reference-mm-de-capo-i-loudspeaker-specifications#UD19DLAphbZDoSl2.99
There's a BE version as well.
It measures poorly - definitely colored.
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I agree with the statement that Reference MM de Capo measure poorly. Actually, Rick was being nice, they are horrid!
https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/reference3a_mmdecapo/
Dr Floyde Toole spent more than 50 years studying how we hear and correlating it with measurements (off-axis is just as important as on-axis). This would be an example of a terrible speaker unless someone is purposely looking for super colored (very musically dishonest) speakers.
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I agree with the statement that Reference MM de Capo measure poorly. Actually, Rick was being nice, they are horrid!
But they look so good! :? :lol:
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What about running the Ancora sealed? I know it’s a three way and little down in the 92 dB target but it could be a good option.
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I agree with the statement that Reference MM de Capo measure poorly. Actually, Rick was being nice, they are horrid!
https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/reference3a_mmdecapo/
Dr Floyde Toole spent more than 50 years studying how we hear and correlating it with measurements (off-axis is just as important as on-axis). This would be an example of a terrible speaker unless someone is purposely looking for super colored (very musically dishonest) speakers.
Everyone who is in our hobby should watch this video https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM) I’m sure Rick’s speakers would do well :thumb:
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What about running the Ancora sealed? I know it’s a three way and little down in the 92 dB target but it could be a good option.
I've got an Ancora from Rick, and it does sound great. It's sealed, too. However, you are correct that it is shy of your goal of 92dB.
Have you considered an MTM speaker? It would be easier to achieve a higher sensitivity.
Until this post, I had been lurking on this thread. I may just be interested in whatever is decided upon - especially if it becomes available as a kit.
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I faced a similar issue in trying to find a high sensitivity DIY speaker with the different requirement of good quality but affordable for a father-son project. We decided on this build that I documented here:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=139584.0
It turns out it included like Cyberstudio suggested a waveguide/compression driver for the high frequencies. At the time I did try out the speakers with my 2A3 tube amplifier with good result. My son still uses these speakers and loves them.
A good coaxial or tweeter with waveguide is always a good idea.
HES, High Efficiency Speakers
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/HES.htm
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Some time ago I decided, if I changed my big speakers (3-ways with 10.5" paper woofer) of my main system -kidnapped by TV and family- these 91 dB/W/m and minimum 7.2 ohms @ 200 Hz are what I would build:
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Plutone.html
The second review:
"I have a Unison Research Little Italy, Single Ended EL34 tube-map of 2 x 12 Watts (http://www.unisonresearch.com/en/products/valves/integrated-amplifiers/simply-italy.html). The Plutones had played at least 100 hours before I'm got round to finish the cabinets. After the new installation however, it lasted weeks before it sounded good. But then it was there: precise and balanced but also lively and fresh. Some examples: the voice of Magdalena Kožená in arias by Bach sounds very pure and clear. Instruments and voice are separated well. Guitar and guitarra in various recordings of Amalia Rodrigues sound nicely "pointed" and where she draws out with her voice this is quite lifelike, but never too much. Sarah K's guitar is clear and detailed and has a long decay, stunning.
With classical orchestral work, such as Shostakovitch's 15th Symphony with the London Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Bernard Haitink, a lovely space is created. The last part of Mahler's "Des Knaben Wunderhorn" by the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra with Ricardo Chailly, has a wonderful layering in music. Berlioz "Symphonie Fantastique" fourth part: "Marche au Supplice" sounds firm, with dynamic percussion, shrill and growling trumpets."(Hans - Rotterdam, Netherlands).
Off course, to listen to very good recordings. For modern commercial music it is not necessary to spend a lot of money, neither on speakers nor on electronics.
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Btw, a new BIG commercial speakers in Europe, with 95 dB/W/m. Only 800 €. But without measurements and reviews, it is too new. From Germany. Minimum impedance?
Magnat Transpuls 1500
https://www.magnat.de/en/detail/index/sArticle/3004440
(https://www.magnat.de/media/image/articles/super/Magnat_Transpuls_1500_Opener.jpg)
[IMG, big] https://www.magnat.de/media/image/articles/slider_large/Serienslider_Transpuls_1.jpg
Magnat Transpuls 1500 @ Magnat RV 4 @Lyngdorf CD @ MHES2018
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byBq2cU1dmU
Magnat Transpulse 1500 03
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmyPLshiM78
with Rock:
Magnat Transpuls 1500 @ Magnat RV 4 @ LP Magnat 990 МТ @ MHES 2018
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ikt3zl-P7_4
Amplificatore luxman l509x diffusore magnat transpuls prova 1 consonance .Pozzuoli NA
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7U6As-9CKwQ
.....
The Hybrid amplifier Magnat RV 4: https://www.magnat.de/en/electronics/rv-4/
[German] http://www.i-fidelity.net/testberichte/high-end/magnat-rv-4/seite-6-labor.html
[German] https://www.hifitest.de/test/bildergalerie/vollverstaerker/magnat-rv_4_15233/6
[German] https://www.fairaudio.de/test/magnat-rv-4-hybrid-voll-verstaerker-mit-dac-test/
[German] https://www.modernhifi.de/magnat-rv-4-test/
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https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/272810-devore-orangutan-clone.html
-> https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/272810-devore-orangutan-clone-8.html#post5607764
-> -> http://www.dibirama.altervista.org/home-page/diffusori-acustici-hifi/470-makako-2-vie-bass-relfex-8-ohm-300-wmax.html
89 dB/W/m but about 7 Ohms at 150 Hz.
Misure con filtro "sperimentale" (solo passa-alto sul tweeter) proposto da Diego Sartori
[IMG] http://www.dibirama.altervista.org/images/ingrandimenti/makako/makako_tot-wt-xofc_0-30_risp.jpg
[IMG] http://www.dibirama.altervista.org/images/ingrandimenti/makako/impedenza_filtro_makako_1_ordine.jpg
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http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Twenty-Five.html
Sensitivity • 91 dB / 2,83 volts
Impedance • 5 ohms nominal (minimum 4.4 ohms @ 150 Hz)
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Harbeth P3ESR
6ohm 84db
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=187406)
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Harbeth P3ESR
6ohm 84db
Great speakers. I love them. However, they don't meet either of the criteria you ask for, 8 ohm minimum and 92db efficiency.
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Great speakers. I love them. However, they don't meet either of the criteria you ask for, 8 ohm minimum and 92db efficiency. Well... I wouldn't call it a criteria. More like a... "sure would be cool if we could do this".
And, as this thread evolves, I evolve as well.
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Forgot to mention - SET's have horribly high output impedances. I would never use one.
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I would not call these world class but they sound good and are rated at 92dB
https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=MLMO35XT
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I would not call these world class but they sound good and are rated at 92dB
https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=MLMO35XT
Actually 86.8dB...
https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1350:nrc-measurements-martinlogan-motion-35xt-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153
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Actually 86.8dB...
https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1350:nrc-measurements-martinlogan-motion-35xt-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153
:lol:
Transparente would be a much better choice!
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Another interesting speaker design (?world class): Fusion Tempest - 98dB, 8 Ohm
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Rick is a great designer/builder and a really nice guy, but I wonder if his Circle is the appropriate place to discuss or endorse all these other loudspeakers. His call, of course.
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Forgot to mention - SET's have horribly high output impedances. I would never use one.
Speakers can be (and are) designed to work well with high output impedance amplifiers. Such speakers will be less suitable for use with 99.99% of amplifiers (and few domestic settings), hence are at the audio fringe.
Thanks Rick for the GPA 604-8H-III crossover that in part has allowed me to own such a speaker, which I have enjoyed for many years.
Cheers.
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Rick is a great designer/builder and a really nice guy, but I wonder if his Circle is the appropriate place to discuss or endorse all these other loudspeakers. His call, of course.
With sincere respect, the OP's question is an appropriate question to Rick. The subsequent discussions, well I take your point, but that is up to Rick.
People get sucked into a these discourses, not consciously, but in an sffort to help, to justify their beliefs, to...
Cheers.
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I will add just a couple of cents into this discussion. I, personally, think it is in bad taste to start suggesting other brand of speakers in someone's forum, such as Rick's. There is a thing called PM that works great in this case.
The OP asked for a type of speaker that is for a type of amp that Rick, afaik, doesn't really aim to design for, and I agree that the vast majority of SET amps have horribly high output impedance yielding unfavorable measurements with most speakers (look at a previous comment for more on that). I have built a single ended (although not Triode) amp myself and owned a few others, but they are utterly colored. I think Rick favor's truth based on listening to two other speakers he designed and seeing how he designs.
A speaker mentioned (not Rick's) that might meet some of the OP's objectives (not sure about benign impedance, didn't look...and further I bet Rick could design something similar if he so wished) is the Fusion Tempest mentioned earlier. I think I heard the 15" version of these and they were great. More typically used for HT aficionados but if the impedance was benign enough could also be used with tube amps. Might still want to add a sub.
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Rick is a great designer/builder and a really nice guy, but I wonder if his Circle is the appropriate place to discuss or endorse all these other loudspeakers. His call, of course.
Post 482- I write: "Regarding cabinets.... I have a few classic monitors in mind as inspiration. Can I post pictures? or would that be uncool?"
And Rick's response on the next post: "Sure - feel free to post them."
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I too wish this was posted elsewhere.
For the OP, look at the Decware DNA Horns. You can buy the plans for $19.95, it will take about $300-400 to build these. They are floor standers if you can use them, but have a very small foot print. Bass is very decent according to my buddy Rex, so subs may not be needed.
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I don't mind the posts of other speakers as it provides for me an opportunity to explain why most of them suck and / or have bogus sensitivity specs. SET amps remind me of the Apogee speakers from years ago. They had a model with the impedance being 1 ohm. The idea was that you needed to find an amp that could drive it. With the SET it's in the reverse - locate a speaker that it can drive. Who cares what size it is or how colored, just savor that first watt.
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I was blown away with the Gamut room at one of the shows I went to.(LAAS) ..RS3 http://www.gamutaudio.com/speakers/rs3i..
Also at the same show Dan Modwright , said to look at Ryan speakers for inexpensive introduction to hi-end audio..This little speaker had me looking all over the room, for the Hidden Sub woffers (there were none)..!! Ryan S610 - http://www.ryanspeakers.com/Products/Products/Products/S610.html..
Another (affordable ) speaker I have heard at a show was the Silverline Minuet Supreme Plus at $596/pr from Underwood HiFi Inc.
very dynamic for it's size, driven by a 50 watt SS amp , it was nice for way under a grand..!!