I test drove a Tesla 3 this morning.

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Letitroll98

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Re: I test drove a Tesla 3 this morning.
« Reply #60 on: 30 Aug 2018, 11:42 am »
In the opposite of that social media chestnut, my IQ just went up by five points reading this thread.  We have some really smart people as members.  Please keep this excellent discussion going, it's quite amazing that differing opinions can be presented with no rancor and leave politics out of a politically charged topic.  Well done gentlemen.

Wayner

Re: I test drove a Tesla 3 this morning.
« Reply #61 on: 30 Aug 2018, 11:55 am »
Here is the article I read about electric cars: http://www.startribune.com/your-all-electric-car-may-not-be-so-green-says-new-study/285860511/

I'm more then happy driving my F150XLT, 2.7L, 10 speed automatic, ALUMINUM, super crew cab, 4 X 4 truck that gets about 22 mpg in town, sometimes 30 mpg highway. It also has the towing package, so I can pull people with their electric cars out of the ditch on bad snow days.

BobM

Re: I test drove a Tesla 3 this morning.
« Reply #62 on: 30 Aug 2018, 12:12 pm »
2 things keep me from checking out a Tesla:

1 - the range and ability to charge en-route to somewhere, and the time it takes to recharge vs refill a gas tank

2 - all the stories about maintenance and getting parts and after-market support

They are getting there and if they can keep from going under they might have a product in 5 years or so that I would consider, or their competition.

OzarkTom

Re: I test drove a Tesla 3 this morning.
« Reply #63 on: 30 Aug 2018, 01:58 pm »

 He really lost me when he said that generator creates 100x more energy than goes in it.  :roll:  Powering the batteries through radio frequencies? Give me a break.

I know, sounds impossible.

How about boiling water with frequencies?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFKxJyFiNvc

Killing cancer cells with frequencies?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w0_kazbb_U

Back in the 30's, Dr. Rife killed cancer cells with frequencies with his machines. He got shut down by the FDA.

https://behiveofhealing.com/forgotten-genius-royal-raymond-rife/


WGH

Re: I test drove a Tesla 3 this morning.
« Reply #64 on: 30 Aug 2018, 02:33 pm »
How about boiling water with frequencies

That is a lot different than powering a car, if sound, radio, or microwave frequencies were that strong around us we would all be boiling.
Why doesn't he make a cell phone without a battery instead of a car? That would be a lot more useful and he could send you a sample to verify the technology.

I like the Maxwell Chikumbutso quote: "Anything that defies the laws of physics...they classify it as a perpetual motion device" and plan to use it at the first available opportunity.

Now I know why Elon Musk has been so erratic lately, he saw the car video and realized he wasted billions on his Tesla Gigafactory 1 battery factory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigafactory_1

twitch54

Re: I test drove a Tesla 3 this morning.
« Reply #65 on: 30 Aug 2018, 04:53 pm »
a politically charged topic.

I thought these things were charged with 'electrons' ...... :scratch:

Wayner

Re: I test drove a Tesla 3 this morning.
« Reply #66 on: 30 Aug 2018, 05:31 pm »
Why Tesla himself wanted to broadcast electricity, but his financial backer didn't know how to charge people for something that didn't have a meter on it. Perhaps he needed a "pledge" week......  :)

avahifi

Re: I test drove a Tesla 3 this morning.
« Reply #67 on: 30 Aug 2018, 06:04 pm »
For anyone interested, here is the owner's manual for the Testa 3.  Lots and lots of reading!  I study thoroughly before buying.

Now just need to figure out to come up with the $50,000 price tag.

https://www.tesla.com/content/dam/tesla/Ownership/Own/Model%203%20Owners%20Manual.pdf

Frank


jtwrace

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Re: I test drove a Tesla 3 this morning.
« Reply #68 on: 30 Aug 2018, 06:07 pm »
Now just need to figure out to come up with the $50,000 price tag.
Sell cables.   :P

twitch54

Re: I test drove a Tesla 3 this morning.
« Reply #69 on: 30 Aug 2018, 07:00 pm »
Sell cables.   :P

good one JT !

Wayner

Re: I test drove a Tesla 3 this morning.
« Reply #70 on: 30 Aug 2018, 08:09 pm »
I wonder what the trade in value of the Tesla will be in 5 or 6 years. Certainly the batteries will need replacing and that will be a discouraging factor. The cost of a vehicle is not only what its sell price is, but also what its trade in value is.

avahifi

Re: I test drove a Tesla 3 this morning.
« Reply #71 on: 31 Aug 2018, 01:14 am »
Tesla model 3 batteries have an eight year unlimited mileage warranty.

Frank

charmerci

Re: I test drove a Tesla 3 this morning.
« Reply #72 on: 31 Aug 2018, 01:15 am »
As for battery tech, it will get better - faster and more efficient. That's what they are constantly developing. This will be the future.


The gasoline auto industry simply does not care. I drove a 1992 Mercury Sable (a full size car with the 3600 V6 140 hp engine) back in the 90's from DC to Chicago at 70mph and got 35 miles to the gallon! So in over 25 years of development, where has the gas auto industry gotten better - efficiency-wise? Big, high powered vehicles that get 25-30 miles to the gallon on the highway. And the people who buy vehicles don't care either. Big, big, big, big. That's all. They want these kind of vehicles. Not aerodynamic, big front faces, wide tires (increasing rolling resistance) and lots of horsepower.


 

2bigears

Re: I test drove a Tesla 3 this morning.
« Reply #73 on: 31 Aug 2018, 01:21 am »
 :D mopar make a 700 hp JEEP for goodness sakes.  Now that's crazy.  The intake manifold has an AC line into it to cool the mix.  Just nuts.  :D

charmerci

Re: I test drove a Tesla 3 this morning.
« Reply #74 on: 31 Aug 2018, 01:29 am »
:D mopar make a 700 hp JEEP for goodness sakes.  Now that's crazy.  The intake manifold has an AC line into it to cool the mix.  Just nuts.  :D


But that's kind of irrelevant. There will always be a few over-the-top vehicles. It's the 100's of millions (if not over a billion) of miles driven by everyone.


The US would save over a billion gallons of gasoline each year if everyone properly inflated their tires!  :o

DaveC113

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Re: I test drove a Tesla 3 this morning.
« Reply #75 on: 31 Aug 2018, 03:42 am »

And if you follow the EIA instructions, go to that Excel spreadsheet, tab over to Table 10, and you'll see estimated losses of around 4million out of about 108million MWh for 2016.  That's 3.75% in T&D losses by my calculation.  NOT 67%, as you all are suggesting.  Indeed, EIA estimates approx 5% of total electricity generation lost in T&D losses per year (https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3).

So, transmission losses are important, but nowhere near a dominant factor in the overall energy performance of electric vehicles vs ICE.

A little bit of actual information goes a long way.

Only if the information is understood and used in the proper context!  :P

I never suggested transmission losses to be 67%. It's the entire process you need to look at starting from calculations of how much energy is contained in the fuel that is released when burnt at the power plant and compared to work the car actually does on the road.

To charge your car there is a long list of inefficiencies to calculate, first the turbine that burns the fuel and creates the electricity, it's far more efficient vs an ICE engine in a car but it's in the 40-60% range and 60% is a recent achievement afaik, steam might even be under 40%. This is the thermal efficiency. Then there's going to be far more minor losses (vs the loss in thermal eff) in the generator, transmission, charging the battery, etc.

Then, discharging the battery and running the motors in the car has some inefficiency in it too, though nowhere even close to how inefficient an ICE motor is. 

An ICE car is around 30% for comparison, it can vary but this is reasonable average. This isn't hard to figure out, just take the energy in the gas burnt and compare it to the work done by the car. 

A coal plant running 40% thermal efficiency is probably going to be worse vs the ICE car as all the other inefficiencies will add up to more than the ICE car in the end. A very efficient natural gas power plant might actually squeak out a small advantage but it's definitely not worth it when you consider the other issues. Charge with renewable sources of energy and after some years on the road the savings will eclipse the extra energy required to build and recycle the car and you'll have a net reduction in CO2 emissions, which is great. At this point it's probably worth it, but like the cigarettes to heroin example, we will be paying the price in other ways that aren't sustainable either.

If you compare an extremely efficient ICE car to electric power via fossil fuels there is no contest... a car like the Honda Fit cost very little to manufacture, it's easy to recycle, it gets around double the average fuel economy and is likely the best answer to the problem right now. But it'll never be trendy and wealthy folks will never drive a Fit. I get it, neither do I... I don't drive much though.

-----

On another topic, heating the passenger space... it's free with ICE as it's just waste heat but can reduce the efficiency of an EV drastically, this is rarely taken into account!

charmerci

Re: I test drove a Tesla 3 this morning.
« Reply #76 on: 31 Aug 2018, 04:13 am »
But Dave if you're going to take the energy transmission into account, you have to also account for the energy required to build the drills, extract the oil, transport it to the refineries, the energy to convert it to gas and transport and distribute it to the gas stations.

Russell Dawkins

Re: I test drove a Tesla 3 this morning.
« Reply #77 on: 31 Aug 2018, 05:31 am »
An African, has Invented a car that never needs charging. He will have a hard time getting this one on the market. :(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viGjXV38qvY

This video convinces you?

OzarkTom

Re: I test drove a Tesla 3 this morning.
« Reply #78 on: 31 Aug 2018, 09:32 am »
This video convinces you?

Here arfe updates if you need one.

https://truththeory.com/2018/04/29/this-man-one-ups-tesla-by-inventing-an-electric-car-that-never-needs-charging/

https://www.zambianobserver.com/update-donald-trump-usa-snatch-top-zimbabwean-inventor-maxwell-chikumbutso/

If Elon Musk had invented this car, I am sure he would not be able to sell it today. Look at what they did with Nikola Tesla and his free energy inventions.

Some or all of us here have probably heard of the 100 mpg carburetor. I have a friend that had a Yamaha mini-van that got 106 mpg. Yamaha had mistakenly sold this and tried many times to buy it back. Of course, he kept it until it wore out.

Wayner

Re: I test drove a Tesla 3 this morning.
« Reply #79 on: 31 Aug 2018, 11:44 am »
But Dave if you're going to take the energy transmission into account, you have to also account for the energy required to build the drills, extract the oil, transport it to the refineries, the energy to convert it to gas and transport and distribute it to the gas stations.

Sounds like an industry that employs lots of people....good for the economy.

As for battery tech, it will get better - faster and more efficient. That's what they are constantly developing. This will be the future.


The gasoline auto industry simply does not care. I drove a 1992 Mercury Sable (a full size car with the 3600 V6 140 hp engine) back in the 90's from DC to Chicago at 70mph and got 35 miles to the gallon! So in over 25 years of development, where has the gas auto industry gotten better - efficiency-wise? Big, high powered vehicles that get 25-30 miles to the gallon on the highway. And the people who buy vehicles don't care either. Big, big, big, big. That's all. They want these kind of vehicles. Not aerodynamic, big front faces, wide tires (increasing rolling resistance) and lots of horsepower.


 


The electric car has been in development for over 100 years. You'd think they would have overcome the mileage to charge time problem by now, but they haven't. Frank would have to pull over 5 times on his way to RMAF. Probably not very practical.

The only vehicle that makes any sense (cost to performance wise) is a hybrid. More then likely 50+ miles to the gallon. However, a hybrid is not going to pull Frank out of the ditch.

I also find it interesting that no one is bitching about all the semis on the road and with everyone buying on line, the amount of these vehicles has increased, not to mention delivery trucks, and airplanes to get the product to its destination on time.

Electric cars aren't going to save the world. Same smoke stacks over those manufacturing plants, same craters in the ground where the ore was mined, same petroleum products used to make wire insulation, tires, carpet, interiors, light lenses.