AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: dallaire1 on 17 Sep 2022, 09:36 pm
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Hello all,
Well, it’s been a long time coming and still not quite done yet, still have to make grills, it's always the grills that get made "whenever"... Not exactly the easiest build I've ever encountered but not too bad. I have about 100-man hrs. In as I'm writing this and still need grills and clear coat lacquer tomorrow.
I have gotten to spend some time with them for a couple weeks fully functional but not cosmetically finished. I must say, OB bass is completely different than anything I've heard at this low a frequency. The best way "I" can explain it, is that it sounds like "headphone bass", no BOOM or hangover effects. Very quick and tight. I ran quite a few measurements using REW and played with things for a good 5- or 6-hours getting things dialed in to my liking. I played with the Sub settings quite a bit. They will get LOW! but struggle a bit with reaching full excursion with "bass torture" tracks. I ended up using the 28Hz, High control setting. To me it’s a no brainer...you get as low as you ever really need to for most music, and the setting just sounds much quicker and taunt to my ears. In retrospect, knowing what I know now, I probably would have gone with the triple stack for the simple fact of limiting cone excursion as a unit. The amp only sees a "load" anyway so it wouldn't have taxed it any differently. Overall, I do love the sound for sure! I was always a bit of a "bass head" growing up in audio as a teen so I guess I was expecting a bit more "slam" out of them, but in all fairness, I know they sound very musical and "correct".
In life everything seems to be a compromise of some kind or another, like having tv console between the speakers for me. I was able to utilize the console as a left and right amp enclosure. The Speakon connectors come out the bottom of the console. I still have to build a pegboard shield around the plate amps on the interior side of the console enclosures to protect the electronics and such.
I was blessed with an audiophile wife, so it made the whole experience a lot more fun. We typically listen almost every night together, I love it. The Spatial,s are probably my last speaker, they literally still blow me away after a couple years with them! Although, I would like at some point to heard that AMT tweeter I hear so much about. I’m sure it edges out the M100 a bit.
I can now start treating my room finally. I also have another space that is larger and have kicked around moving the system and taking some measurements to see what I can get out of the room vs. the one I’m in. I am just able to get the M3’s (3) feet off front wall which to me sounds nice and smooth. I’m pretty much in the “mid field” with them and think they image like amazingly! Although still pretty much an equilateral triangle. I do have 2 inch, Owens 706 panels in place 5 feet behind my listening position which helps for now.
So, I guess this turned into a GR/Spatial review. I have to say I used DiracLive3 to phase align and correct for my untreated room. Curtain set at the Schroeder frequency area, about 200hz. Crossover point is set by Dirac itself so I will have to disconnect mains and subs independently to see what frequency was chosen. I have to say I am a firm believer in Dirac in this area! You cannot distinguish a difference in location as to where the subs are in relation to the mains. The low end is one cohesive, in step balanced sound for sure as soon as I defeat Dirac the phase change is immediately heard. I know everyone will say I don’t know how to set them up correctly lol.
I will post a couple pics of the build.
Thanks guy’s
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I love the adapted credenza! Fantastic work! I am building the Triples now, and the NXtremes as soon as they can ship them out. I figure a couple months to get the flat packs finished and painted. I think I will have a local body shop paint them for me, but....I like to do it all when possible.
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That is a neat idea but you may be losing some performance by having the amps so far away from the subs. The wiring between them ideally should be as short as possible and really no more than 3 feet.
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Guess I'm losing out. Ours are more than 30 in some cases. Which is the worst-case scenario. Long speaker wires or long interconnects?
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It has more to do with the servo connection. The longer the connection the less effective the servo functions.
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I remembered you emailing me about the woofers reaching exertion limits and it really sounded like you might have had them wired wrong. I even recommended you check the wiring again.
Now that you have posted this I can see what the problem is.
Your servo amps are way too far away from the woofers. The servo system is trying to make corrections for woofer movements that already took place. In short, you are causing a delay in the control.
This is why we recommend that you add no additional wire lengths than what is on the amplifier from the factory.
Move the amps to right behind the woofers and shorten up the cable as short as you can make them and you should gain back a lot of control and it should minimize woofer movement and increase control.
On a good note, you have yet to hear what they can really do.
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I was blessed with an audiophile wife,
Does she have a sister? :green:
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Before throwing out the baby with the bathwater, why not at least try locating the subs on the inside of the M3's next to the credenza. That would certainly seem to satisfy the wire length issue plus keep that neat built-in sub amp feature intact. Just a thought, don't shoot the messenger. :|
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Before throwing out the baby with the bathwater, why not at least try locating the subs on the inside of the M3's next to the credenza. That would certainly seem to satisfy the wire length issue plus keep that neat built-in sub amp feature intact.
That's a good idea. This would allow the OP to trim a few feet of wire from each sub.
And here's a wild thought for a future project -- turn that credenza into a triple OB servo sub!
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Thanks for the ideas guys. I am going to try that when I get some time. I am a little discouraged though I must admit. If this information would have jumped off the page at me at the time of purchase I would have gone a totally different direction on the subs. I spent a couple hours on Rythmik's site and cannot find anything regarding this ? I must admit I didn't "open" and read "every" DIY issue there was on their website, but there is no "specific" line item that mentions cable length that I could find. I couldn't find it at GR Research as well ? unless I'm missing something... I thought I read everything I could find before making this decision. Sorry Danny, I love and respect what you do for us all and never miss a video, but must say I'm a little discouraged... I really didn't want amp boxes on my floor with more wires.
I'm a little perplexed as to "why" this is a problem ? both wires are the same exact length feeding the subs, both 12ga. OFC and electricity travels at 90 percent the speed of light ! Perhaps it's a micro resistance thing with additional cable length ? I just find it hard to wrap my head around. but hey, if that IS the case then I obviously missed something.
Funny thing is, they sound amazing! and all dialed in :duh: The bottoming of the woofer I was referring to was on a bass torture track like I had said "Black Lotus" by Walton. The track has unusually low bass in it that is sustained at times in the track, after selecting the 28hz, High control setting, the problem was resolved. Not to say I couldn't leave them at a deeper setting and get by. I am starting to agree a little with S. Linkwitz regarding open baffle bass and SPL levels not being able to expect much with OB below a certain frequency of around 38hz give or take, regarding cone excursion. Although he wasn't speaking of Servo Control systems either, so I will be hooking them up at some point to the direct amp leads and do some A/B comparisons with REW measurements and play the same track as before at the same level, with the old amp settings of "20hz, mid control" and see if they reach full x-max or not ? If they don't, It will be interesting and make a true believer out of me, and stand corrected.
Vince
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This is all I can find at GR Research regarding amp placement for my two DIY kits.
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The amplifier can be mounted separately and connected via a Neutrik 4 pole cable connector. These are also available. If you need floor spikes they can be added as well."
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It's not really mentioned in the paperwork but the reason the amps need to be so close to the woofers is due to how the servo controls work.
It's not an issue with most of Rythmik's subwoofers is because the cable runs in their own designs are usually really short. (Within 1-2 feet in total)
There is a smaller, servo voice coil on the woofer. As that smaller coil passes through the magnetic field of the motor structure, it creates a very small electric charge that gets sent to the amplifier where it is used to tell the amplifier the position/speed of the woofer.
As the lengths between them get longer, there is a larger delay, as well as a loss of servo coil signal strength in what the servo controls see as there is higher resistance, though slight, giving the subs servo units incorrect information to where the woofers actually are, compared to where the woofers should be and the more likely it is to bottom out.
The easiest way to alleviate the issue would be to swap the positions of the servos subs and the Sapphires, and cut the wires shorter.
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I am a little discouraged though I must admit.
Think about it this way: there's a greater benefit to moving those subs closer other than the shorter wire length -- you'll likely get better sound across the spectrum. I'll bet your imaging locks in, midrange is meatier, and bass is tighter.
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Yes I will definitely getting them on the inside and see if it makes a difference. Funny thing is I sitting hear listening pretty dam loud and they sound great. I can't imagine them getting better but I will still see for sure. Again, the only surprise was that one track bottoming. other than that I thinks they totally holographic as low bass could be.
I will post results and pics of response and performance difference if I can perceive one. Thing is they will be in a totally different location so it will greatly effect frequency response.
Thanks everyone
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The bass won't get any louder per se but it should be cleaner and tighter with the shorter wires. You may gain a bit of headroom on the problem track with the tighter control but I wouldn't count on a big change there.
J.P.
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I will see if we can update the site with information about keeping the amps close to the woofers.
FYI, I took peak bass measurements in our old listening room that was 26 feet long, 17 feet wide, had 9 foot ceilings and a large opening to a dinning room in the back corner. I was measuring a pair of dual subs just like yours. They were hitting 115db peaks at 25Hz. They were not being over driven either. That's a lot of output.
Oh, and I was measuring them from 15 feet away.
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That's encouraging to hear, I will definitely get the subs on the inside of my setup with a direct connection in a couple weeks and listen to the difference. It wouldn't be the end of the world if I had to scrap the console amp setup and build a couple amp boxes. Just really like the clean simple look. I will report back when I can come up for air with work and all.
Thanks Danny !
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Well that was a fast two weeks! I thought I would get this topic resolved today. I removed the 10ft. cable from the left sub only and replaced it with a 18inch cable. The sub on the left was moved to the inside of the mains. Upon playing the same control track "Black Lotus" by Walton, the sub performs NO different than the right. On bass peaks with this track the woofers will bottom out at about 70% volume on my NAD M33 Integrated amp with stereo sub outputs. The amp goes into overload and begins to clip noticeably as well, (see pics) red led's lit hard. The volume setting on the sub amps are 3 clicks past center only.
Don't get me wrong here, the subs sound fantastic on anything with bass if you keep the amp setting to (28hz high control setting) I can push most any song to within 90% of the NAD without a problem before the sub amps start to clip. I am just going to reiterate that I must side with the late S. Linkwitz regarding OB bass, you simply cant get high SPL levels with open baffle bass to frequencies that are in the 20's not to mention the teens ! without an array of subs to limit excursion with an amp that has a lot more reserve. Again I think the triple stacks would have been a better choice with the higher power class D amps. Just my two cents.
The laws of physics I'm afraid still prevail.
Regards,
Vince
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Well that was a fast two weeks! I thought I would get this topic resolved today. I removed the 10ft. cable from the left sub only and replaced it with a 18inch cable. The sub on the left was moved to the inside of the mains. Upon playing the same control track "Black Lotus" by Walton, the sub performs NO different than the right. On bass peaks with this track the woofers will bottom out at about 70% volume on my NAD M33 Integrated amp with stereo sub outputs. The amp goes into overload and begins to clip noticeably as well, (see pics) red led's lit hard. The volume setting on the sub amps are 3 clicks past center only.
Don't get me wrong here, the subs sound fantastic on anything with bass if you keep the amp setting to (28hz high control setting) I can push most any song to within 90% of the NAD without a problem before the sub amps start to clip. I am just going to reiterate that I must side with the late S. Linkwitz regarding OB bass, you simply cant get high SPL levels with open baffle bass to frequencies that are in the 20's not to mention the teens ! without an array of subs to limit excursion with an amp that has a lot more reserve. Again I think the triple stacks would have been a better choice with the higher power class D amps. Just my two cents.
Don't jump to false conclusions! There's a bunch of people on this forum with the same sub setup that don't have the problem you're experiencing. A shorter cable isn't gonna fix that issue (although you still need shorter cables).
I'm willing to bet that your settings aren't optimized. Unfortunately, there's no manual or online instructions to guide you through the setup process, and it's not intuitive. It's up to you to experiment. If you ask me how I know, it's because I've been where you're at - exactly the same scenario, and I fixed it with the settings. FWIW -- my rumble filter setting is on 14Hz and the extension filter is set to 20Hz. I'm hoping others will chime in to offer advice on A370 amp settings.
Be patient -- you'll eventually stumble upon the right configuration. In the meantime, enjoy the other 99.856% of your music.
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I most certainly will :)
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I just received an email back from Brian over at Rythmik audio. He said
"Hi Vince,
I haven’t tried that long cables so I cannot tell you if it will work. Since the amp uses servo feedback, it is not wise to have feedback cable for that long.
-Brian"
So for now I digress and yield my position I will get them wired direct soon.
Thanks guys, seriously don't mean to offend anyone here.
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What you are sharing with us about the output levels, woofers bottoming out, and amps clipping is not consistent with what these woofers will do.
Something is a miss. I really suspect there is a polarity issue with the sensing coils, sensing coils not wired properly, or the polarities were not flipped when one woofer was flipped facing the other way.
These really should be bringing down the house flat to 20Hz with none of those issues.
We had dual open baffle servo subs under the Super V model at RMAF one year and we had so much really low bass output that it was freaking people out. When we play Deeper by Pete Belasco we thought the sheet rock was going to be pulled off of the studs in the room. We had people from the hallway come in and get us and have us go out in the hallway to see the walls outside our room. They were visually flexing 1/8 to 1/4 inches and we really thought we were about to break the sheet rock.
These things will hit hard down low.
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As soon as I started to read this thread, I didn't think the cable length was an issue. I have the same pair of subs. I use a 6 ft cable between sub and Rhythmic amp. Mine work fine. I love the bass in my system. I do not play loud. But the bass is low, rich, and elastic. I have a pair of 2x12 OB and a REL T/9x in the back corner. 3 subs total. The volume is set fairly low on all 3.
Your issue about no documentation is spot on. The fact that none of these kits have a PDF file of best build practices and other important build info is defiantly a miss. The standard answer is to look through this forum. Ask your question there. Sure, that is good for unique questions, but the common stuff should be captured in a document. And the answers you get in the forum can be wrong, and ofter are. Not from Danny, but from the hundreds of others posting here. This thread is an example.
Creating an instruction document for each kit would take too much time..... Nonsense.
Most of the doc could be a cut and paste from these forums, as Q&A happen, for the common stuff. Danny would oversee this, if not do it himself to be sure doc is correct. These sub kits have been in existence for over 10 years I think. Imagine how good the build doc would be by now. What's the full price of the kits for these 2 subs, with flat packs, and no simple doc?
Danny does great work! We just need a doc to answer common questions as we build, or before we buy.
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Your issue about no documentation is spot on. The fact that none of these kits have a PDF file of best build practices and other important build info is defiantly a miss. The standard answer is to look through this forum. Ask your question there. Sure, that is good for unique questions, but the common stuff should be captured in a document. And the answers you get in the forum can be wrong, and ofter are. Not from Danny, but from the hundreds of others posting here. This thread is an example.
Creating an instruction document for each kit would take too much time..... Nonsense.
Most of the doc could be a cut and paste from these forums, as Q&A happen, for the common stuff. Danny would oversee this, if not do it himself to be sure doc is correct. These sub kits have been in existence for over 10 years I think. Imagine how good the build doc would be by now. What's the full price of the kits for these 2 subs, with flat packs, and no simple doc?
Danny does great work! We just need a doc to answer common questions as we build, or before we buy.
Although I agree with you, better documentation is really the manufacturer's responsibility.
IMO, Rythmik Audio's website has plenty of information, in general, but it's highly technical and doesn't cater to the average buyer. A box sub is much easier to set up, but the cabinet build, wiring, positioning, and A370 amp controls for the dual OB servo subs are on another level. It's assumed that DIYers know what they're doing, so there's less hand-holding for anything beyond beginner kits, I suppose.
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I agree about the info as well, This is a pretty important piece of information to not know about. I sure Danny, like he said will make it known on the site.
This is what I have for wiring, I am assuming these are nominal 16ohm woofer each and have them wired in parallel so the amp is seeing about a 8 ohm load give or take as its frequency dependent of course. So I don't know what else to check from here. The Servo side is a simple series connection at least per the wiring diagram. I used the wiring diagram with the two woofer configuration with the bottom woofer reversed, so therefor I can see where the wiring could trip up some people. the woofers are working together, just with a light touch on the surround's and you can verify that they are wired correctly. The Servo side is pretty simple as well.
Here is a close up of the wiring configuration. I have kept the wiring for the voicecoil and the servo wiring on their respective sides of the build.
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Heck, I was even thinking of filling the speaker wire holes with black silicone just to have zero "unloading" of the woofer ?? I don't know if this would help or not, but I'm sure it couldn't hurt...
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I can't really tell from your blue and white wiring which wires run back to the amp and are connecting to + and -.
To confirm or rule out the problem you could flip the polarity on the sensing coils at the amplifier.
It will either bring everything back under control and tighten everything up or get real out of control.
Be sure to test it at lower volumes first.
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The wiring is correct Danny, but check this out! I had the genius idea to run splitters and feed both preamp inputs as Rythmik states you can gain 6db of input. So more is ALWAYS better right ? WRONG ! I opened both doors on the console so that I'm looking directly at the back of the amps. I played a series of tracks and low and behold one amp clipped at about 80% on the main volume and only got worse, the other amp however NEVER clipped ! totally different performance for sure !!!
Definitely put this in the "do's and don't" info on the kit ! I cant beleive I was simply overdriving the input stage and it never dawned on me to lose the splitters.... omg :duh: :duh: :duh:
Thanks again guys, and sorry Danny :roll:
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So today I completely tore everything apart verified wiring. Connected DIRECTLY to the amp leads, with the exception of the wire in the H frame, which I'm sure everyone has give or take an "inch or two". Hitting 80db peaks "with again Black Lotus by Walton playing just to see with these babies can do now that I have listened to all the BS. Amp falls apart badly, sorry folks. You can't see your LED's, I guarantee they are clipping at high levels and you don't know it. Now I'm a little pissed.
Danny, you said the walls were flexing so badly ??? these don't produce pressure in the room ?? they sound great if not pushed to hard period. I will be at some point probably switch to a sealed sub system that won't tax the amplifier. It would take four of these subs to get the same SPL as the mains without overdriving the amps. 115db at 25hz at 15 feet mic placement. Yeah, what the amp doing ?? and how would you know if its in a wooden box ? what's the distortion level ? I couldn't imagine the distortion levels...
I'll just be song selective when I show anyone "what these babies can really do"!
Sorry bout this post but I'm out thousands and 100 plus man hrs.
pics of amp in overload at 80% main volume
sub amp volume at 65%
Just to be clear, most songs with average bass clip at about 85-90% main volume, next I'm sure it will be my Integrated amp right...? Whatever at this point, it is what it is !
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If you are hitting 80db peaks and clipping the amps then something is definitely wrong. That is NOT consistent with what we know they can do. It is quite the opposite. You should be able to hit 100+ db peaks (in your room) all the way to 20Hz with ease, and without even being close to overdriving the woofers or amps.
Also, one dual open baffle sub will hit harder while playing flat to 20Hz than a single sealed servo sub.
I would also like to help you figure out what is going on here and get you up and running so you can enjoy them.
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Again, to confirm or rule out the problem can you flip the polarity on the sensing coils at the amplifier?
Also, disconnect the sensing coil and see if nothing happens. If it is still the same with the sensing coil disconnected that confirms a problem.
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I hate to get down on anything about this Danny but I am at a loss my friend.
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I will try that and report back.
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OK, the Servo section is definitely doing its thing! woofers were totally unleashed without it. If the speaker didn't weigh 100 pounds plus I would ship you the speaker Danny.
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I see you are using an NAD int, are you using Dirac to do room correction? I have dual 12 OB and never had any issues with the amp clipping but with Dirac on a miniDSP I had it bottom out a couple times when DIRAC was trying too hard to correct a dip in response. It doesn't take much overdrive an amp when correcting dips with DSP.
Just for a reference in my theatre I use dual Rhythmic sealed 15" subs and for music and to match your M3s I think you may not like the sealed versions with your M3s, they completely load the room differently.
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Oh, if you're using Dirac, you should definitely remove that from the signal path (or disable it). That can definitely cause clipping with attempting room correction, as BGA notes.
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Yes it does want to create a flat response when it see's a dip, and yes for sure its to be used with caution especially in the low end but I limit its correction if there is a black hole null at a particular frequency and make sure it doesn't over correct as you can alter the curve ones self. To be honest, I think what it does with regards to phase matching and setting x-over points is pretty amazing as an integration tool. I have played back and forth with it ON and OFF and it makes a few Db difference.
I can make them sound great I just can't get much output from them. My wife wants to drive them to Danny's so he can take a look laughingly, but I have considered it. I am just at a loss in regards to output only, there is only a subtle difference when defeated, I'm so confused at this point.
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My wife wants to drive them to Danny's so he can take a look laughingly, but I have considered it.
Listen to your wife.
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How many db are you hitting when the amp clips?
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dallaire1, sounds like you have eliminated most of the easier to correct problems. I would next verify that the source signal to the sub amps matches the specified input range. For example, sub amp max input voltage rating 2.5 V. If you supply more than 2.5 V, the amp is not going to behave well.
Flat to 20Hz can sound desirable in theory, but might not work out well in practice. There is almost no musical content below 30 HZ, unless synthesized or a huge pipe organ that can go down to 16 Hz. I chased meaningful output below 40Hz with a Ripole sub driven by a sub amp with DSP. Increasing the output at 35 Hz, 30 Hz, 25 Hz or 20 Hz did nothing but increase cone excursion to ridiculous levels without achieving gut pounding bass. In fact, just muddied up everything. Setting 6db per octave roll-off below 40Hz and adjusting for as flat as possible in room response from 60 - 100 Hz yielded the best overall bass impact and clarity.
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How many db are you hitting when the amp clips?
I'm around 80db-85db but it is highly track dependent for sure.
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dallaire1, sounds like you have eliminated most of the easier to correct problems. I would next verify that the source signal to the sub amps matches the specified input range. For example, sub amp max input voltage rating 2.5 V. If you supply more than 2.5 V, the amp is not going to behave well.
Flat to 20Hz can sound desirable in theory, but might not work out well in practice. There is almost no musical content below 30 HZ, unless synthesized or a huge pipe organ that can go down to 16 Hz. I chased meaningful output below 40Hz with a Ripole sub driven by a sub amp with DSP. Increasing the output at 35 Hz, 30 Hz, 25 Hz or 20 Hz did nothing but increase cone excursion to ridiculous levels without achieving gut pounding bass. In fact, just muddied up everything. Setting 6db per octave roll-off below 40Hz and adjusting for as flat as possible in room response from 60 - 100 Hz yielded the best overall bass impact and clarity.
I looked up the specs on the NAD M33 sub outs the other day, they put out 1.1v RMS at 680ohms, So it should mate up ok with the Rythmik amps. After moving subs to the inside I did do another Dirac correction again and found interestingly enough, Dirac considers the "usable" frequency range after it runs all of its sweeps. For the subs it wanted to limit the subs to 30hz. I pulled the curtain to the left to include just a "little" lower extension to about 27hz or so. I find it interesting that Dirac came up with a usable limit of 30hz, probably due to levels of distortion rising quickly. So I left it at that. The sound with Dirac engaged and used to integrate is pretty amazing I think. I have just come to the conclusion, its sounds great and musical, but I have to agree with you totally about limiting the low end and having the headroom on the amp instead is a much more pleasurable listening experience for sure.
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I'm around 80db-85db but it is highly track dependent for sure.
That’s really low, you should be able to get close to 100.
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Just for fun you could try to use the pre out on the M33 and then use the internal crossover on the sub amp and turn Dirac off so it would eliminate any issues with the sub outs.
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Leaving tomorrow on business for a few days. I will probably leave things as they are for a while and just listen... I do enjoy them ! might try some different things regarding low end in the near future.
Thanks for all the help guys !!
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Tyson is right. You should be able to hit 100 plus db peaks pretty easily.
Where are you located (just a city and state)?
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I totally believe you, I'm not doubting anyone. I just can't seem to get that SPL without clipping. I'm 14 hours from Wichita Falls, Texas. I'm in Phoenix, AZ. I would love to find some time and bring them to you Danny, hey maybe I overlooked something ?? The ONLY thing I could possibly imagine would be the woofer is not making a good seal for some reason where it meets the MDF and unloading the woofer. I didn't use any type of gasket seal of any kind as I figured the rubber gasket should be sufficient I would think. I torqued all screws the same. The only reason I bring this up is because I cut the holes per the drawing at 11" and ended up needing to recut the holes larger to I believe it was 11.25 inches and they seated just perfectly with NO wiggle room. Perhaps they are not seated air tight enough. The rubber gasket was touching seemingly flat though.
Also I Guess looking at the (4) ominous woofers staring at me playing loudly I thought I would FEEL a little something on bass peaks ? I realize it is a totally different design and for good reason of course. I love the sound of the bass and the fact that it decays immediately, for sure. However I thought I would have ended up with more headroom regarding the amp ? although the M3's are a pretty efficient speaker at 92db 1W/meter if a remember right ? And being a 4 ohm speaker, the amp outputs 370 watts per side.
Let me know Danny, I would love to get them in your hands for testing.
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Might I suggest a quick FaceTime? Seems like either a connection opportunity (rule out simple first) then if not solved look at the integrated settings/ dirac
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I should chime in - I just realized I had a similar experience that was Dirac related.
I have a huge array of OB subs, and I was not thrilled with what I was hearing. I thought I tried everything. But I pulled my MiniDSP out and the low bass appeared. When I replaced it with an old Oppo 105, the base was suddenly there and punchy. I had tried turning Dirac off in the MiniDSP but there was still a weird weakness to it.
The MiniDSP had been great in upper frequencies, but it just murdered the bass.
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:dunno:
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MiniDSP's are not recommended for systems at this level.
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I totally believe you, I'm not doubting anyone. I just can't seem to get that SPL without clipping. I'm 14 hours from Wichita Falls, Texas. I'm in Phoenix, AZ. I would love to find some time and bring them to you Danny, hey maybe I overlooked something ?? The ONLY thing I could possibly imagine would be the woofer is not making a good seal for some reason where it meets the MDF and unloading the woofer. I didn't use any type of gasket seal of any kind as I figured the rubber gasket should be sufficient I would think. I torqued all screws the same. The only reason I bring this up is because I cut the holes per the drawing at 11" and ended up needing to recut the holes larger to I believe it was 11.25 inches and they seated just perfectly with NO wiggle room. Perhaps they are not seated air tight enough. The rubber gasket was touching seemingly flat though.
Also I Guess looking at the (4) ominous woofers staring at me playing loudly I thought I would FEEL a little something on bass peaks ? I realize it is a totally different design and for good reason of course. I love the sound of the bass and the fact that it decays immediately, for sure. However I thought I would have ended up with more headroom regarding the amp ? although the M3's are a pretty efficient speaker at 92db 1W/meter if a remember right ? And being a 4 ohm speaker, the amp outputs 370 watts per side.
Let me know Danny, I would love to get them in your hands for testing.
When we used them under the Super 7 they had to keep up with an upper driver that had 97 to 98db sensitivity. They did that easily and with room to spare.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245358)
Have you tried taking some room measurements?
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At this point would suggest simplifying. Eliminate variables. So to speak, the more complicated the plumbing the more likely a problem will surface. I know DIRAC is popular and DSP is widely used. Personally, never could get Audyssey to properly adjust a Home Theater sound system. Already mentioned DSP as an issue. A modest application of DSP turned out the best. More is better and too much just right does not work.
Strip the signal path down to the most direct possible. Try feeding one sub amp, default settings or minimal signal modification configuration. Start with all volume settings minimum and no source material. Check for movement of the drivers. Increase the volume in steps, each time check for cone movement. If you note cone movement increase with increased volume, probably have an EMI or RFI noise issue.
If there is no cone movement as you increase volume, start over with musical content. Increase volume and check for clipping. If clipping present likely a faulty amp, or problem with the input signal, or noise being picked up along the signal chain. If all good repeat with the other amp. If all good there, connect both amps and repeat. If both amps do not clip add one item back in the signal chain. Test again. The idea is to isolate, hopefully, a single item causing the problem.
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Thanks, this weekend I will run some measurements, time permitting.
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MiniDSP's are not recommended for systems at this level.
So these amps/Speakers are not a good fit for anyone intending to use bass management in their rigs ??
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Danny, the problem is the amp runs out of steam with bass management. This is not a desirable thing for many people that want to implement it. Lets face it, it is the future and progression of audio like it or don't its improving by leaps and bounds yearly. I have a "black" amp and hear nothing but harmony in the system, clearly not as advanced as yours nor do I have the luxury of having a large dedicated listening room that even goes beyond your black curtain bordering your listening space. You have all the latitude to make things perfect. So perhaps this would be something to mention in the kit literature. Sorry.
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Danny, the problem is the amp runs out of steam with bass management. This is not a desirable thing for many people that want to implement it. Lets face it, it is the future and progression of audio like it or don't its improving by leaps and bounds yearly. I have a "black" amp and hear nothing but harmony in the system, clearly not as advanced as yours nor do I have the luxury of having a large dedicated listening room that even goes beyond your black curtain bordering your listening space. You have all the latitude to make things perfect. So perhaps this would be something to mention in the kit literature. Sorry.
(Edited) your photos look like the no-rez is not installed - did you put that in?
This is also probably basic, but... You did wire these out of phase since they are opposing directions, right?
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Danny, the problem is the amp runs out of steam with bass management. This is not a desirable thing for many people that want to implement it. Lets face it, it is the future and progression of audio like it or don't its improving by leaps and bounds yearly. I have a "black" amp and hear nothing but harmony in the system, clearly not as advanced as yours nor do I have the luxury of having a large dedicated listening room that even goes beyond your black curtain bordering your listening space. You have all the latitude to make things perfect. So perhaps this would be something to mention in the kit literature. Sorry.
If the amp runs out of steam with bass management does it not run out of steam without bass management? What are you expecting to gain with bass management? Even open baffle subs can need some tweaking regarding location to eliminate room modes. I had to experiment with locations of 3 units to get the best overall result. Bass management can't fix everything. Still, assuming everything is correctly wired and constructed, no faulty components, no noise infiltration, the clipping does not make sense. If you take bass management out of the signal path and there is no clipping, sounds like there is the problem. I wish you all the best in your journey.
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If the amp runs out of steam with bass management does it not run out of steam without bass management? What are you expecting to gain with bass management?
I am not the original poster here however DSP/ Room EQ is often misused in that you should never boost and only cut or attenuate peaks. We often read threads of people using DIRAC and they let it auto calibrate and the result is that is tries to boost the bottom end of the freq range and the end user hits Xmax and or clips amps.
Positioning of these subs seems limited by the fact it is built into furniture and very nice job with that.
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I don't think no-rez is going to do a thing at the 40hz-20hz region. I know a lot of people use it, and for good reason if you're going with say a 120hz crossover point.
I love the way the system sounds corrected, not a huge fan with my limited placement and without Dirac Live 3 engaged. But yes you are correct they will play about three decibels louder with Dirac defeated, problem is the synergy of the speakers mating properly in the phase domain and also in the magnitude domain sounds 100% better with Dirac engaged. Just look at the frequency response I posted, if you don't think that sounds good... It sounds amazing! Not bragging on my gear, just pointing out the efficacy of bass management done correctly works extremely well.
I'm thinking of ways to still utilize the servo section of the amp but not the amp itself at some point and get the NAD M22 to drive the subs. It would not even be fair to compare the two amps. Then I would have all the headroom I would need. Rythmik should simply make a class D amp with a solid switching power supply but I realize that is expensive to make one that will last. Anyway, that's my two cents on the subject. Simply not a audiophile match up in my world.
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I'm thinking of ways to still utilize the servo section of the amp but not the amp itself at some point and get the NAD M22 to drive the subs. It would not even be fair to compare the two amps. Then I would have all the headroom I would need. Rythmik should simply make a class D amp with a solid switching power supply but I realize that is expensive to make one that will last. Anyway, that's my two cents on the subject. Simply not a audiophile match up in my world.
It's apparent that your system has one of two problems -- it isn't set up or connected improperly, or there's a mechanical issue. It's more likely the former. You've received really good guidance in this thread (and your wife provided the best advice!). If you follow this advice, you'll resolve your issue. To make matters worse, you're creating a senseless solution to a problem that can be easily remedied.
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It's apparent that your system has one of two problems -- it isn't set up or connected improperly, or there's a mechanical issue. It's more likely the former. You've received really good guidance in this thread (and your wife provided the best advice!). If you follow this advice, you'll resolve your issue. To make matters worse, you're creating a senseless solution to a problem that can be easily remedied.
I agree. With those subs you should easily be able to hit 100db down to 20hz. The fact that it's only getting mid 80's indicates there's a problem with the setup.
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Well I asked Danny and got no response. Here is a video I just took. Take notice of the M33 volume, this is with NO DIRAC !!! I promise you. Direct hookup to the amp NO CABLE. The M33 and M3's just walk away... The amps simply cannot keep up period. And I did take my wife's advice, thank you.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oSfBuxygpDMy4hz87
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I should point out the clipping starts at 80% volume. Again, trying to be fair the Amp will produce 444 peak watts per channel driving the M3's being a 4ohm speaker, which is a very efficient combination I will admit.
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I can see it's clipping. It's hard to tell how loud that is via the video clip, but it sounds way, way lower than what I get out of my pair.
Let's put it this way, we were watching Dune the other day at close to reference levels and my amps never clipped. And that was FAR more bass and far more volume than what I heard in your video clip. Which leads me to believe that there's a problem with the setup.
2 things I'd check - 1st, are you using the RCA connectors or the speaker connectors into the subwoofer amps?
2nd, put on something with crazy low bass at high volume and look at the woofers. They should be moving back and forth a LOT. Like an inch or more. Verify that the top and the bottom woofers are in synch (ie, both move forward together and both move backward together).
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I can see it's clipping. It's hard to tell how loud that is via the video clip, but it sounds way, way lower than what I get out of my pair.
Let's put it this way, we were watching Dune the other day at close to reference levels and my amps never clipped. And that was FAR more bass and far more volume than what I heard in your video clip. Which leads me to believe that there's a problem with the setup.
2 things I'd check - 1st, are you using the RCA connectors or the speaker connectors into the subwoofer amps?
2nd, put on something with crazy low bass at high volume and look at the woofers. They should be moving back and forth a LOT. Like an inch or more. Verify that the top and the bottom woofers are in synch (ie, both move forward together and both move backward together).
Yeah, the phone recording gives a skewed sense of volume in the video. At -20Db on the dial things start to sound live with lots of dynamics on most material, so I would say that's about my usual listening level 50 percent of the time.
I am hooked up using the pre amp RCA's with splitters from the stereo sub out's on the Int.
As far as picking a low bass track, I have played "Black Lutus, by Walton". Paul McGowen over at PS audio recommended this as one of his bass test to see how low a sub will play. With this track and NO DIRAC or CABLES this track will clip at -28Db on the dial ! that's not very loud and the woofer's...well they hit bottom hard. Anyone can stream this track and hear it. I just have the ability to see when the clipping occurs on the LED's, most people can't. I will be selling the amps and keeping the subs soon. I am looking for still a servo system with a different amp topography altogether. Don't know if I can find one or not but I will find a solution. Remember, where does the energy come from for correction to maintain linearity ? from the amp. Therefore the more correction needed in an OB design is really stressing this amp as MUCH eq and correction is needed. Again, JMHO
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Sorry, forgot to answer your last question regarding phase of all the sub drivers. Yes they are all in phase with both subs. I put them both together, side by side when I first hooked them up to verify. They all move forward and back at the same time regardless of their orientation in the H frame.
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Yeah, the phone recording gives a skewed sense of volume in the video. At -20Db on the dial things start to sound live with lots of dynamics on most material, so I would say that's about my usual listening level 50 percent of the time.
I am hooked up using the pre amp RCA's with splitters from the stereo sub out's on the Int.
As far as picking a low bass track, I have played "Black Lutus, by Walton". Paul McGowen over at PS audio recommended this as one of his bass test to see how low a sub will play. With this track and NO DIRAC or CABLES this track will clip at -28Db on the dial ! that's not very loud and the woofer's...well they hit bottom hard. Anyone can stream this track and hear it. I just have the ability to see when the clipping occurs on the LED's, most people can't. I will be selling the amps and keeping the subs soon. I am looking for still a servo system with a different amp topography altogether. Don't know if I can find one or not but I will find a solution. Remember, where does the energy come from for correction to maintain linearity ? from the amp. Therefore the more correction needed in an OB design is really stressing this amp as MUCH eq and correction is needed. Again, JMHO
You mentioned splitters previously. Do you mean RCA Sub out 1 from the M33 split into 2 RCA plugs for connection to L and R RCA in on Sub Amp 1? If that is the case, will the Sub Amp work with just a single connection to the L channel?
Are you setting the Sub Amp volume control say at midpoint and controlling overall system volume with the M33? Have you tried reducing the Sub Amp volume to stop the clipping? What happens?
Something that unexpectedly worked for me was to set my Sub Amp phase at 180. At 0 there was almost no bass. Maybe you will find somewhere between 0 and 180 phase improves or eliminates the clipping.
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You could also have a bad amp.
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Stop using the sub out. Use the pre out. Sub out is a processed signal. Pre out is the raw. Splitter off of one sub output also means a weaker signal to each sub, but worse is that you are losing the stereo effect.
But that is REALLY likely to be the problem. Try pre.out.
Actually - this leads to the other stupid-easy test: drive the plate amps from a signal that is not the M33 and see what happens. Even just a 3.5mm to RCA cable from your phone would tell you a hell of a lot.
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I will do a little research on this and try it, have nothing to lose at this point.
Thanks
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Pre amp outputs 3.9 volts, 100 ohms
Sub outs 1 volt 680 ohms
Gonna try and find what Rythmik amps like for input voltage.
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Well this is with Dirac OFF, NO CABLES. Plugged into (pre amp outputs). Settings on amp are (28hz mid control). I have tried just about everything. Has anyone tried to pull their amps to see if I'm the only one in the universe or do people not want to know ? Sorry, don't know what else to do or say about these amps driving this speaker design. It's great, just don't push them to realistic levels in my opinion. Danny, get the amp that will drive these things with some serious headroom, go class D with some real wattage and grip. Its a sub amp, even you wont be able to discern the difference. At least they will play with some authority.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/PhB9eT79jdYt8WWG7
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Sub amp volume setting are 5 clicks past center.
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Sub amp volume setting are 5 clicks past center.
Honestly, I keep forgetting that you are watching the clipping led like that, so input signal stuff won't be the driver.
I don't have that plate amp model - I have the 2 channel ones, and I think those are not the same circuit class, but I will try this later and check indicators.
The drivers are out of phase in each chassis since they are reversed, right?
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In the latest video it appears there are 2 LEDs flashing on each amp. Is that correct, there are 2 LEDs on each amp to indicate clipping? So there is no clipping indicator on the user control side of the Amp. That seems like an indication that should be on the user control panel, not hidden. Would be great if someone with the same GR Research setup could verify if their LEDs ever blink.
Sorry you are having so much trouble. This seems like an issue that needs to be addressed by Rhythmic. Unless multiple GR customers speak up about the same problem, not a systemic issue for Danny to fix. I assume you have studied everything on the Rhythmic site.
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I have read everything I can find. And yes all drivers are pushing and pulling in unison.
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I really think this amp would be MORE than sufficient if it were not an OB design. The Servo portion in the OB design is taxing the amp with a serious amount of correction power consumption that otherwise could be used to drive the speakers. Disconnect the servo leads and see what your woofers do. They will reach X-Max with VERY little power, this is obvious. If the same amp were in a sealed enclosure or ported for that matter, it would help control the woofer with just the compliance of the enclosure not even needing the servo portion for the most part. I'm sorry but this amp is not designed to play at realistic levels without clipping, it can't, it was never engineered for loud playback with an OB sub design. IMHO
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Sorry, to answer your question. Yes both lights are flashing when driven to 80% volume give or take. I believe one is the input stage, the other the output stage ? Danny ?
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So these amps/Speakers are not a good fit for anyone intending to use bass management in their rigs ??
A MiniDSP or bass management system is not needed with the servo subs. All of the control you need is right there built into the amp already. You also never what stuff like that in the signal path with your main speakers.
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Danny, the problem is the amp runs out of steam with bass management. This is not a desirable thing for many people that want to implement it. Lets face it, it is the future and progression of audio like it or don't its improving by leaps and bounds yearly. I have a "black" amp and hear nothing but harmony in the system, clearly not as advanced as yours nor do I have the luxury of having a large dedicated listening room that even goes beyond your black curtain bordering your listening space. You have all the latitude to make things perfect. So perhaps this would be something to mention in the kit literature. Sorry.
Bass management is built into the amp already.
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Sorry if that’s a been answered but how high are you crossing the subs?
In my experience, this happens when the subs are up over 100 Hz. I found running them lower, 60 - 80 Hz, worked best. When you run them lower you can increase the gain of the plate amps without taxing the woofer. Pretty much the same as any other subs I have run over the years.
On my three builds using these amps I drove the amps off the speaker level inputs. I had the high level input resistance changed by Rythik so I could drive the amps to full volume off the speaker outputs of relatively low wattage tube amps.
I have no experience running them with DSP.
YMMV
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I don't think no-rez is going to do a thing at the 40hz-20hz region. I know a lot of people use it, and for good reason if you're going with say a 120hz crossover point.
I love the way the system sounds corrected, not a huge fan with my limited placement and without Dirac Live 3 engaged. But yes you are correct they will play about three decibels louder with Dirac defeated, problem is the synergy of the speakers mating properly in the phase domain and also in the magnitude domain sounds 100% better with Dirac engaged. Just look at the frequency response I posted, if you don't think that sounds good... It sounds amazing! Not bragging on my gear, just pointing out the efficacy of bass management done correctly works extremely well.
I'm thinking of ways to still utilize the servo section of the amp but not the amp itself at some point and get the NAD M22 to drive the subs. It would not even be fair to compare the two amps. Then I would have all the headroom I would need. Rythmik should simply make a class D amp with a solid switching power supply but I realize that is expensive to make one that will last. Anyway, that's my two cents on the subject. Simply not a audiophile match up in my world.
No Rez will tighten up the bass and improve the response regardless of high high the subs cross to your main speakers.
The A370 amps have a phase control right there on the amp. So no additional phase controls are needed.
If you think that system sounds amazing now in a room with zero room treatment with bare corners and a big bare wall, then you are really going to be amazed when you actually treat the room.
The A370 amps have a ton of headroom and power. You don't have a headroom problem. You have a malfunction somewhere, and it still points to a correct wiring issue.
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I should point out the clipping starts at 80% volume. Again, trying to be fair the Amp will produce 444 peak watts per channel driving the M3's being a 4ohm speaker, which is a very efficient combination I will admit.
The Super V that I posted a picture of has about 6db higher sensitivity than your speakers, and the lower woofer keep up easily with headroom to spare.
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I am hooked up using the pre amp RCA's with splitters from the stereo sub out's on the Int.
Never use the servo subs RCA output loop to your main amps.
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Your skirting the issue here Danny. Again the last video is with NO DIRAC and NO CABLES.
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Well this is with Dirac OFF, NO CABLES. Plugged into (pre amp outputs). Settings on amp are (28hz mid control). I have tried just about everything. Has anyone tried to pull their amps to see if I'm the only one in the universe or do people not want to know ? Sorry, don't know what else to do or say about these amps driving this speaker design. It's great, just don't push them to realistic levels in my opinion. Danny, get the amp that will drive these things with some serious headroom, go class D with some real wattage and grip. Its a sub amp, even you wont be able to discern the difference. At least they will play with some authority.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/PhB9eT79jdYt8WWG7
You don't need another amp. You need to figure out what is causing the problem.
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I really think this amp would be MORE than sufficient if it were not an OB design. The Servo portion in the OB design is taxing the amp with a serious amount of correction power consumption that otherwise could be used to drive the speakers. Disconnect the servo leads and see what your woofers do. They will reach X-Max with VERY little power, this is obvious. If the same amp were in a sealed enclosure or ported for that matter, it would help control the woofer with just the compliance of the enclosure not even needing the servo portion for the most part. I'm sorry but this amp is not designed to play at realistic levels without clipping, it can't, it was never engineered for loud playback with an OB sub design. IMHO
The Qts of these woofers in an open baffle are the same as the sealed version in a box. Compliance is not an issue.
The amps are not working harder in the open baffle configuration either.
These will play back to significant levels in the 100 plus db ranges in good sized rooms with no issue, flat to 20Hz, and with no bottoming out or amp clipping.
You still need to figure out the problem rather than blaming the design. We have literally hundreds of these systems out there, and no one else has had these issues.
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Is there anybody in Pheonix who has these subs and amps that could help this guy out? Either bring your amps to his place and swap them out, or have him go to your place and hear how these can indeed get very loud without clipping. It's not a design error so something else is going on.
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Just wanted to point out a little about myself regarding audio. I am not new to audio, I was reading speaker builder magazine well before the internet and immersed in the subject my whole life, I am now 55. This is a build I did when I was a young man, about 27 or so. I wanted to build a multi channel electronic crossover network with trim pots, per channel for at the time was a dedicated home theater setup.
This was a Marchand Electronics individual board kit you could by via snail mail back in the day. All the components are in a bag and you get a blank board with each. I Soldered every component on every board including trim pot boards. Cut my own sheet metal, welded and powder the chassis, you had to make your own.
Anyway, more than anything I just wanted to point out, I'm a little handy with electronics and the workings of audio. Just don't why I can't read a simple schematic and wire two woofers correct ??? Anyway...
LINK
https://photos.app.goo.gl/EGqPeJ1FULEijAYv9
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By today's standard its a good door stop.
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I have used Danny’s open baffle subs and now use a par of the sealed version with Lyngdorf Room Perfect DSP.
Both systems will play crazy loud. I ran into a similar situation once when demoing my Super V with the open baffle subs. A wire had come loose from the servo coil on one of the woofers. Caused low output and woofer bottoming. It is critical the servo coils are wired correctly for the system to work as intended.
Hope you get it working correctly. They are the best subs in either configuration that I know of.
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Sorry, to answer your question. Yes both lights are flashing when driven to 80% volume give or take. I believe one is the input stage, the other the output stage ? Danny ?
Full Stop. If one of the LEDs blinking is on the input stage, is that not an indication of a problem with the input signal? Anybody familiar with Rhythmic amp please weigh in.
If the amp is indicating it does not like the input signal, not an open baffle design problem, not a lack of Watts. The reason for a blinking LED associated with the input has to be understood and/or solved before going any further.
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I'm assuming the input stage is being overdriven at some point by my integrated amplifier.
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I'm assuming the input stage is being overdriven at some point by my integrated amplifier.
Agree, assuming one of the LEDs is on the input side. Why is the input stage complaining needs to be solved before expecting the amp or system to operate properly. It would make sense for the amp output to clip, essentially self protection, if there is something it does not like about the input signal. Garbage in - garbage out principle. I can't find anything on the Rhythmic site that talks about LEDs, what they mean, and how to troubleshoot.
Maybe somebody that knows will weight in, otherwise have to get an answer from Rhythmic.
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Can you post a photo of the sub amp settings. Could't hurt to double check....
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I'm assuming the input stage is being overdriven at some point by my integrated amplifier.
I checked my plates and don't have those indicator LEDs.
I still think trying a different input is worthwhile. Just a 40 hz tone from your phone through a 3.5mm to rca adapter, with the gain on the plates maxed out will tell you a lot. You ramp it slowly and know exactly what you are putting in.
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I will take a pic of the plate amp settings and post today. Also going to just start emailing Brian at Rythmik to just jump to the end of this whole thing. I already know what the answer will be. I'm already searching for new amps but seems as though Rythmik has the servo control market sewed up. But I will find a solution. I checked the wiring again last night. Both woofers are to move forward together right? Regardless if they are backwards in relation to one another? The bottom woofer moves toward my front wall as the top woofer moves toward me at the MLP? right?? I just want to be clear.
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I do not have servo subs but I do know that the woofer cones should move in the same direction, i.e. when you face the array all of the cones should move toward you or away from you in unison. Otherwise your bass pulses are out of phase and cancel each other. If your speakers are facing opposite directions then the one facing away should be wired out of phase to make them move in a common phase.
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I do not have servo subs but I do know that the woofer cones should move in the same direction, i.e. when you face the array all of the cones should move toward you or away from you in unison. Otherwise your bass pulses are out of phase and cancel each other. If your speakers are facing opposite directions then the one facing away should be wired out of phase to make them move in a common phase.
If you are letting the M3 speakers play full range, the subs need to be in phase with them. Otherwise the speaker and subs are fighting each other. You might have to adjust the subs phase to find the sweet spot where everything blends.
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Okay then, again the wiring is correct. It's pretty basic, Danny has me second guessing myself because we just keep going in circles. Just wanted to make EXTRA certain. Like I mentioned, I'm contacting Brian at Rythmik today to get the official answer.
Brian Ding <briand@rythmikaudio.com>
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I've emailed Brian Ding at Rythmik, I will post his answer when it comes in. Thanks
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Both woofers are to move forward together right? Regardless if they are backwards in relation to one another? The bottom woofer moves toward my front wall as the top woofer moves toward me at the MLP? right?? I just want to be clear.
Agree with the need for clarity. All FOUR woofers must move in unison, all cones in the same direction at the same time. From the MLP, all four cones must move in unison toward you, then away - regardless of their installation orientation. Your description is not clearly conveying that operation.
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Well I guess I could simply reverse the two speaker wires on the top woofer to verify. It will either blow the windows out or produce even less output. I'm working right now but will try this just for the heck of it.
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Above is a link to a video I took with the OB subs, amps are A370PEQ. I have dual sub outs on my NAD M33 that I am using, the sub amp settings are (28hz, mid-level servo control), crossed at 40hz. Both amps seem to clip at about 80% on the main M33 volume dial ? I have checked the wiring of the subs many times, they are correct per the schematic with opposing woofers. I have defeated Dirac per Danny’s direction. (Doesn’t seem to matter if I use Dirac or not) amps volume is at 5 clicks past center. Only clips at 80% volume and up ? I have NO cables on this system to the subs, direct wiring.
Please advise thanks,
Vince
ORIGONALL TRANSMISSION TO BRIAN
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Hi Vincent,
Please first try 28hz low damping instead of medium damping. Second, OB subs are less efficient and I assume you have known the fact. If the drivers are wire incorrectly, the bass will not sound right. Third, how do you crossover between your OB mains and OB subs? Xover frequency? And distance setting in AVR of sub and main speakers? If your phase is not correct, you can get cancellation between sub and main speaker.
-Brian
BRIAN RESPONSE
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Thanks Brian, I have used Dirac to set the crossover points and set phase. Even with Dirac defeated I have them crossed at 40hz, doesn’t seem to matter if Dirac is ON or OFF. They are crossed at 40hz to my mains. The integrated amp NAD M33 is driving a 4-ohm set of main speakers (SPATIAL AUDIO M33’S 92dB 1W/meter sensitivity. The M33 puts out 444 peak watts per channel into 4-ohm loads. Could I simply be expecting to much from the plate amp with THIS subwoofer design ? I am assuming in a OB design it takes a lot from the amplifier to keep the OB design on track with the signal compared to say a “sealed design” ? I have checked the wiring 30 times per the schematic and is correct. Sound is tight and controlled and evident until I push the volume on my Integrated to 80%, I will put the control to “low” at “28” to gain more headroom. I thought this design at GR was proven to play very loud as I have read.
Vince
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I will take a pic of the plate amp settings and post today. Also going to just start emailing Brian at Rythmik to just jump to the end of this whole thing. I already know what the answer will be. I'm already searching for new amps but seems as though Rythmik has the servo control market sewed up. But I will find a solution. I checked the wiring again last night. Both woofers are to move forward together right? Regardless if they are backwards in relation to one another? The bottom woofer moves toward my front wall as the top woofer moves toward me at the MLP? right?? I just want to be clear.
That is not really in question. I am wondering if the polarity of the servo sensing coils are correct.
I have another question for you too, or something you can try.
Please run a speaker cable from your amp or speakers to the servo amp and try using the speaker level inputs and let me know what happens.
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Agree with the need for clarity. All FOUR woofers must move in unison, all cones in the same direction at the same time. From the MLP, all four cones must move in unison toward you, then away - regardless of their installation orientation. Your description is not clearly conveying that operation.
This sounds like the problem to me...they are going in opposite directions.
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I will try these things when I can break free. Hell, I could still have them wired wrong ? I will try and post pics of up close wiring so you guys can determine if they are correct or not. I have checked so many times, I'm starting to doubt myself :scratch: I just want to get this right, not looking to prove anything to anybody.
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Danny, can't I simply reverse the two wires on the top sub to verify. Loss of sound or much more sound from subs will tell in my mind correct ?
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“ I am assuming in a OB design it takes a lot from the amplifier to keep the OB design on track with the signal compared to say a “sealed design”
You know all OB main speakers and sub needs a 6db/oct correction which impact the efficiency. Basically starting from 120hz, you cut the maximum output by 50% for every octave down. There are two octave from 120hz down to 30hz.
Your M33 is also OB so it also suffers the limitation of OB speakers. Most GR customers use their subs with Danny’s main speakers. It has proper crossover and drivers will not fight each other. I cannot so sure about M33 if they are “subwoofer friendly”. A lot of main speakers are not subwoofer friendly. For instance, if the main speakers do not have flat low end frequency response, then you cannot properly integrate sub until you put a high pass on main speakers at say 80hz. The purpose is to provide a “text-book like” frequency response for main speakers. How does M33 tackle the problem of 6db/oct roll-off? Does it have electronic compensation network? Otherwise the output between 80hz to 40hz may be 6db down and phasing become an issue etc. The old Klipsch horns like Cornwall, Lasacala, etc are have this problem. It is almost a hit-or-miss try to integrate without HPF on main speakers.
-Brian
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Danny, can't I simply reverse the two wires on the top sub to verify. Loss of sound or much more sound from subs will tell in my mind correct ?
If the woofers are all moving in the same direction then the wiring is correct on the driver coils. Loss of control is typically an issue with the sensing coils.
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I have measured the M3 main speakers with REW and they roll off in my room sharply at 37hz. They measure very well indeed. If I had to guess Clayton Shaw at Spatilaudio has implemented a 6db boost in his crossover design to get that low. But again, this is taken care of by the NAD amp. It has clipping indicators on the front but have never seen then lit.
Vince
BACK TO BRIAN
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Ok, I will do the "battery" test 9volt at the Speakon connector to verify driver motion direction.
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and triple check the series connection with the servo portion of the amp AGAINL.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245451)
Here is the frequency response at the MLP Brian.
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This plot does not look good either. You can see that you have +5db at 30hz and -6db at 50hz. 50hz is more audible than 30hz, so you keep turning up the volume. You need to find a way to eliminate the -5db at 50hz without using Dirarc (because it is just an EQ on composite response) and find out why you have +5db at 30hz.
Also plot it down to 14hz or 10hz to see the entire roll-off characteristic. Right now just based on the plot, you will say your subwoofer volume is too high which is why +5db at 30hz and it causes a cancellation at 50hz, which is caused by incorrect phasing. Hence OB sub is clipping.
-Brian
BRIAN RESPONSE
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Peanut gallery here
Could be wrong but if that is mlp you and or the subs could be in a suck out and trying to compensate with correction could easily cause what your issue is.
Try moving the subs a few (5-6”) inches forward and back and see how it helps. Sounds stupid but works.
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Yeah, I’m a little limited on sub placement as one cannot insert a speaker cable between amp and sub, as it will ruin the servo control over the drivers. I would have no choice but to build amp boxes. As for the low end response, I’m afraid its my room simply dictating the low-end response I’m going to get. So you think I should implement the PEQ and bring down the 30hz region in hopes to bring up the 50hz region ?
Vince
RESPONSE TO BRIAN
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Peanut gallery here
Could be wrong but if that is mlp you and or the subs could be in a suck out and trying to compensate with correction could easily cause what your issue is.
Try moving the subs a few (5-6”) inches forward and back and see how it helps. Sounds stupid but works.
You are correct about Dirac or any room correction software. I pull down the correction in Dirac if it is trying to compensate for a black hole.
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Move the sub like 5-6” closer and away from the walls and reshoot and see if the correction is less to begin with. I would not boost anything 30hz or below. Easy way to chew up power and run out of xmax.
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Yeah, I think it’s a pretty safe guess that the dip is being caused by Room cancellation at the MLP.
Even if it’s temporary, try moving the subs further away from the Front wall and measure again.
My 2 cents….
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That broad valley around 50hz is not good. You need to do the following by plotting 3 plots:
1) M3 alone
2) Subwoofer alone
3) M3+subwoofer
All plots on the same graph.
-Brian
BRIAN'S RESPONSE
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I think I'm going to have to carve out some time to track this all down. I am however going to run a 9v battery test at the input wiring on the subs to verify their correctness.
Thanks
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Battery test checks out. The lower woofer IS pushing from the back of the cone forward into the MLP and the upper woofer IS pushing from the front off the cone forward into the MLP. I think I did in fact wright that incorrectly earlier.
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This suggestion assumes it can be done successfully without confirming the servo wiring is correct. Maybe can disconnect the servo temporarily as high volume will not be needed.
Take advantage of some of the other features of REW. Open the Generator function. You can send any frequency to the NAD. For example, start at 100 Hz. Run only the main speakers, no subs. Listen at the MLP. Turn the NAD volume to zero. Switch the polarity of the wires to 1, only 1, of the main speakers. Turn the volume back up to the same level as previously and listen at the MLP. The 100Hz should be clearly louder with one of the wiring configurations. You can do this process at other frequencies also. I know, this is basic and you may have done it already. Just suggesting eat this elephant one small bite at a time.
Next perform the same checks with only one of the subs without driving the main speakers. Change the drive wire polarity on one of the sub drivers. Again, one of the wiring configurations should be louder indicating the drivers are in phase.
Next do the same for the other sub. Once that sub unit is phased properly, repeat the process driving both units to verify the two subs are in phase.
Then, run the main speakers and subs together to confirm everything is in phase for low frequencies. Would then be left with confirming servo wiring.
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That broad valley around 50hz is not good. You need to do the following by plotting 3 plots:
1) M3 alone
2) Subwoofer alone
3) M3+subwoofer
All plots on the same graph.
-Brian
BRIAN'S RESPONSE
That is exactly what I would start with.
Also, never try to shoot both channels at the same time. Do only left channel speaker and woofers separate and apart from right channel speaker and woofers.
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Okay, it will take a bit to find the time right now but will definitely get it done and posted as described.
Do you have a simple FR shot of your system you can post ? Just want to know if I'm grossly off on what you consider a good looking low end ?
Vince
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Huh ??
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Okay, it will take a bit to find the time right now but will definitely get it done and posted as described.
Do you have a simple FR shot of your system you can post ? Just want to know if I'm grossly off on what you consider a good looking low end ?
Vince
I've used measured responses to dial in phase and crossover points on Super V's and Super 7's. I did the same with the Line forces and many others, but never saved the responses as they really just applied to my room.
It was always pretty easy to get a flat response with the controls on the amps, and with my treated room I never had to use the EQ feature.
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Listened to Black Lotus previously mentioned as a bass torture track. Very similar tracks with very low bass can be found from Freya Ridings, Mammal Hands, and way back Sarah McLachlan. A Keiko Matsui track brings in several very large Japanese style drum strikes that are very low and resonate. Other tracks with very low synthesizer bass. Looking at all those with a spectrum analyzer, there is some content down to nearly 20 Hz detectable produced by my open baffle subs. Four 10" drivers powered by a 250W amp. Can crank up the subs to rattle pictures on the walls, but that ruins the rest of the music.
Took almost 6 months of experimenting, measuring, and listening to find the best overall setup. Room based nulls and peaks are really difficult to tame. Open baffle bass takes time and may ultimately just not be your cup of tea. Took a while to get used to better depth, texture and detail instead of single sealed or ported sub one note room mode boom mistaken for great bass.
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Took almost 6 months of experimenting, measuring, and listening to find the best overall setup.
This is essential -- time. Kudos 'cause 6 months is quick. OB servo subs ain't for the plug & play people. And it's a never-ending battle. A component change usually requires tweaking the subs. A few months ago, I was tweaking my No Rez!
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Based on hearing all this, I can definitely get into playing with these subs ! But I feel real sorry for people that don't have the ability to measure with software, unless they were born with golden ears... Trying to find the time to dedicate.
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But I feel real sorry for people that don't have the ability to measure with software, unless they were born with golden ears... Trying to find the time to dedicate.
No need to feel sorry. I don't use software. Software can measure, but it doesn't detect clarity, nuance, detail, imaging, etc. Ears work better for that.
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Perhaps Danny should point out in his kit literature "these subs will take at least 6 months to dial in" LOL, sorry just sounded funny. :lol:
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Took a while to get used to better depth, texture and detail instead of single sealed or ported sub one note room mode boom mistaken for great bass.
This I have for certain noticed that I never "heard" how detailed the bass actually is, If I sit dead center its as though the bass itself at low frequencies has imagining qualities'. I think I'm going to have to implement amp boxes or I'm never going to be able to fix my dip in response that I'm told is making the amp clip. If I can't move them around, I can't fix the clipping.
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Based on hearing all this, I can definitely get into playing with these subs ! But I feel real sorry for people that don't have the ability to measure with software, unless they were born with golden ears... Trying to find the time to dedicate.
Measuring is definitely helpful, but does not provide a complete solution. I found REW sweeps, 20 - 200 for example, not that helpful. Using the Generator function with the RTA function provided the most helpful information. The Generator gives you complete control to vary frequency over time. You can slowly increase and decrease frequency and pause on a specific frequency as long as you want. The RTA function will tell you the SPL level. Easy to check SPL at 20, 30, 40, 50, etc. Slowly moving up and down in frequency you can find the peaks and dips. Found that process most effective to make adjustments that pleased my ear. I had to fight a room mode peak at 50 Hz. Following that process at your MLP will tell you if that spot is in a peak or dip.
Open baffle bass takes adjustment if you are coming from sealed or ported boxes. I would never go back.
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Perhaps Danny should point out in his kit literature "these subs will take at least 6 months to dial in" LOL, sorry just sounded funny. :lol:
This isn't a Danny issue. Sometimes it takes many months to dial in a pair of speakers. For tube lovers, it could take a year or two to find the right tubes. Plus, your personal listening preferences constantly change, so round and round we go. Once you dial in your subs, your ears will "grow." (that sounds funny!)
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I'm sure.
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Just playing around with data results from some previous shots of the system. I think the decay of these subs are quite evident in the graph. I just selected the t-20 decay for both the two OB subs and my previous Sealed sub. I is pretty amazing the quick decay for sure. I cant wait till I get the time to really play with them.
The bit more smoothness in the midrange is due to the 706 mounted panels behind my listening space. The measurement's were months apart. Just thought this very impressive.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245544)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245545)
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this is with crossover set wide open on sub amp.
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Was able to find about 5 hours later today to dedicate to shooting measurements, will post results today or tomorrow. Looking forward to it!
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Well went to shoot measurements with REW. Updated REW and ran into all sorts of problems with REW producing corrupt sweeps, noise, hesitations,clicks pops... Got that corrected after 4 hours, then had to put things away for another time. Will get this done and dialed in very soon!😔
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I think I have decided to sell, if anyone is interested shoot me a PM.
Vince
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These are now listed for sale under the "trading post" (speakers and stands) circle.
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Im not sure why I hadn't thought to ask this yet.
Assuming you still have the original boxes that the plate amps came in, was there an O written on the top the inner boxes?
The outer shipping box should also have something like "A370 PEQ-OB12" written on both of the ends of the box.
If by some reason they don't, that means the amps were never configured for OB use, and are the ones configured for sealed/ported use only. The outer box should say "A370 PEQ-S3" on the sealed amps.
Here's what each version looks like:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245748&size=large)
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Just read through the whole thread and was surprised nobody asked about the fact Vince is saying he needs to go to 80% master volume to get to 80 db peaks? Aren’t the Spatial speakers high sensitivity? Am I the only one that thinks that sounds odd? Perhaps I am misunderstanding but could be another thing to look at Vince if I am following correctly. Are the Spatials playing to acceptable volume levels by themselves without cranking the MV up way past 50%?
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Just read through the whole thread and was surprised nobody asked about the fact Vince is saying he needs to go to 80% master volume to get to 80 db peaks? Aren’t the Spatial speakers high sensitivity? Am I the only one that thinks that sounds odd? Perhaps I am misunderstanding but could be another thing to look at Vince if I am following correctly. Are the Spatials playing to acceptable volume levels by themselves without cranking the MV up way past 50%?
Yes, that is a good question. With a Main Amp claimed to have over 400 watts, pushing Main Volume setting to 80% should make your ears bleed. Although, there were enough replies essentially saying "this does not make sense". I pointed out if one of the blinking LEDs on the Sub amp indicated over driving the input, that is a problem. Never saw a response indicating that issue was explored and/or solved. Hobbs reply about Sub Amp configuration is worth investigation.
We have all been there assuming everything has been checked multiple times and every possibility explored. Step away for a while and completely start over with a calm mind - forehead slap and voila.
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Yes, that is a good question. With a Main Amp claimed to have over 400 watts, pushing Main Volume setting to 80% should make your ears bleed. Although, there were enough replies essentially saying "this does not make sense". I pointed out if one of the blinking LEDs on the Sub amp indicated over driving the input, that is a problem. Never saw a response indicating that issue was explored and/or solved. Hobbs reply about Sub Amp configuration is worth investigation.
We have all been there assuming everything has been checked multiple times and every possibility explored. Step away for a while and completely start over with a calm mind - forehead slap and voila.
Yeah, I am unsure if the 80 db was full range or subs only but if full range something is definitely off upstream!
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If the input was being overdriven, it would be easy to check by switching from the RCA input to using the speaker level inputs.
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If the input was being overdriven, it would be easy to check by switching from the RCA input to using the speaker level inputs.
Danny suggested that, asked for a report. There were many good troubleshooting suggestions. Responses did not clearly indicate a specific suggestion was implemented and result reported. I know communication via text is difficult both ways. Hate to see Vince give up.
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We have all been there assuming everything has been checked multiple times and every possibility explored. Step away for a while and completely start over with a calm mind - forehead slap and voila.
We mentioned this a hundred times. There's a 99% chance this was the problem all along. I recall starting from scratch with one of my OB servo subs and it worked out. I never determined where I screwed up. It could have been wired properly, but a poor connection somewhere. Who knows?
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MY apologies, I have been up north with no signal for a few days. The ultimate issue I have is either my M33 output is loosing steam to feed the plate amps ? or the plate amps themselves are clipping at a certain master volume setting. I just can't get the "output" I feel that seems balanced to human hearing, at least in my case. I usually bump up the low end to compensate like the Fletcher Munson curves and research indicate about the way we as humans perceive sound balance. I cannot listen to a "flat" response, I think it sounds incredibly lifeless. So again, I just need the amps to be able to keep up with the M33 output. The sound reproduced by the M3's with this amp will part your hair ! That may be part of the problem ??
I am including two pictures of the Servo board on the amp itself that is labeled OB12 on the board itself, so I am assuming this will rule out any confusion about amp/driver mating issues. I just don't think these subs are going to work for my situation. I have been having correspondence with Brian at Rythmik. He has told me their sealed subs have more output than the OB subs as one might expect. He went on to say the ported models have even more output yet, but don't think I would go that extreme as I still want a very musical low end, and Rythmik really does seem to corner the market on that.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245840)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245841)
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Sorry forgot something. I am using the "SUB OUTS" they put out 1 volt whereas the "PRE AMP OUTS" have 3.9 volts available. I still have the clipping issue with either configuration. Again I am using bass management which I will admit removes energy from the signal because it is bringing down a lot of peaks in the response and leaves me turning up the M33 to achieve the same levels with Dirac on vs. off. It is not a problem for the M33 because it can pick up the pace with no trouble, however I just don't feel the A370 can keep up, again I listen often at relatively high levels when in the mood. I think I am going with one of Rythmik's sealed subs with the 600 watt class D amp. I pretty sure this will fix my problem I am told.
Vince
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I would love to mate these OB subs with the 600 watt class D amp but don't even know if that would be an option. I think that might resolve the issue as well perhaps.
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Have you confirmed with Brian what the two LEDs you see blinking indicate? If indeed, one is an indicator on the input, what does blinking mean? If blinks mean the input is being over driven, you must fix that problem before expecting any positive results.
Do you really listen at 80% of maximum on your Main Volume control? If you run only the Spatial Audio speakers, what dB level do you listen at?
Did you try the speaker level inputs to the Sub amps as Danny suggested? If so, what was the result?
Is it possible the Open Baffle configuration for the amps is in firmware that could/should be updated? With supply issues these days, would not rule out incorrectly configured amps regardless of marking. Have you asked Brian to exchange one or both of the amps to determine if you have defective amps?
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Apologies, are you using a mini-DSP?
I had a problem when I first started using one, not realizing the DSP has its own volume setting that is only visible with the DSP app. Had the crank up the preamp to crazy levels just to hear anything from the magnepans. Wasn't until I went back in to redo the settings after moving things around where I noticed the DSP volume was set at -30 db!
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A couple of things still.
Did you try the speaker level inputs to the sub amps?
And what you have been describing still sounds like a sensing coil is wired out if phase.
I know those speakers pretty well. There is a pair at Ron Brenay's just a few miles from me. Clayton also came by with his new X4 model (same speaker but with the Beyma tweeter) and we listened to them in my listening room with and without servo subs.
A pair of doubles like you have should be able to play several db louder than you speakers with ease and with headroom to spare. They can hit levels well above 100db (even up to 115db) in your room all the way down to 20Hz. I can't imagine you listening to your main speakers that loud.
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Sorry guys, I've been totally covered up with work lately and haven't had much free time. I'm pretty much done trying to get this amp/sub/Dirac combination figured out. I would like to maybe keep them if I can implement one of Brian's class D 600watt amps. I'm in the middle of correspondence with him now regarding that. If he can pull it off, I will consider going that route. I know it sounds crazy, but that's just what I feel this sub needs if Dirac is going to be used. I love the fact of having loads of headroom when driving any speaker and think for ME, this pairing comes up a bit shy. Just my experience and two cents.
Vince
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Sorry guys, I've been totally covered up with work lately and haven't had much free time. I'm pretty much done trying to get this amp/sub/Dirac combination figured out. I would like to maybe keep them if I can implement one of Brian's class D 600watt amps. I'm in the middle of correspondence with him now regarding that. If he can pull it off, I will consider going that route. I know it sounds crazy, but that's just what I feel this sub needs if Dirac is going to be used. I love the fact of having loads of headroom when driving any speaker and think for ME, this pairing comes up a bit shy. Just my experience and two cents.
Vince
Did you ever try the speaker level inputs? What were the results with that?
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Sorry guys, I've been totally covered up with work lately and haven't had much free time. I'm pretty much done trying to get this amp/sub/Dirac combination figured out. I would like to maybe keep them if I can implement one of Brian's class D 600watt amps. I'm in the middle of correspondence with him now regarding that. If he can pull it off, I will consider going that route. I know it sounds crazy, but that's just what I feel this sub needs if Dirac is going to be used. I love the fact of having loads of headroom when driving any speaker and think for ME, this pairing comes up a bit shy. Just my experience and two cents.
Vince
OK, understand if you want to try something else. Please, Please before you move on would you answer this question. Have you confirmed one of the blinking LEDs indicates clipping or overdriving the sub amp input??? You previously assumed that was the case. No amp is going to work correctly if the input is overdriven or bad in the first place.
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I will try and find time this weekend to try the full range speaker wires hooked up direct. Trouble is I would not set it up like this. And all I can say about the clipping indicators is that I was told to set damping to LOW to compensate for the clipping I would assume. Brian is out of the country right now and said correspondence may be slow. I waiting to hear back from a couple days ago.
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I will try and find time this weekend to try the full range speaker wires hooked up direct. Trouble is I would not set it up like this. And all I can say about the clipping indicators is that I was told to set damping to LOW to compensate for the clipping I would assume. Brian is out of the country right now and said correspondence may be slow. I waiting to hear back from a couple days ago.
Really think you need to confirm if there is a problem on the input side of the sub amps. You will never get a good outcome if the input signal is bad.
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I will probably hook up a RCA break out to my oscilloscope to my sub outs, feed it with a signal and see at what voltage output it starts to clip. Although the amp clipping occurs regardless if I use sub outs at 1 volt or pre amp outs at 3.9 volts. I think it is a combination of using Dirac for bass management with this amp. It's trying to pull triple duty. Drive the subs drivers, correct for them and Dirac eats up headroom. These amps are having to do a lot themselves with regards to EQ just to keep the woofers in check with the signal.
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Did you ever try the speaker level connectors? It's dead simple, you just hook up some speaker wire from your amp main amp to the subwoofer amp, and then from your subwoofer amp to your main speakers. That alone would clear up if the problem is the RCA input or not, because it would bypass the RCA input entirely.
There's also some argument to be made that the speaker level input is better than the RCA input from a sound quality standpoint. So, worth trying.
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FWIW, jumping to a new amplifier when you’re clearly not getting the typical level of performance from the standard one is going to leave you with a good amount of risk that you end up with the same issue with the new amp. There’s 3 dead simple tests you can run (if you haven’t already) that should help you determine if your issue is with the sub amps or upstream:
1. Run the Spatials full range both with and without Dirac engaged and note the volume setting to SPL
2. Run the Spatials + subs using the speaker level inputs both with and without Dirac engaged
3. Run the subs by themselves (without the Spatials hooked up) using the speaker level inputs, both with and without Dirac engaged.
You mentioned only hitting 80db peaks during one of your test tracks, which unless you were listening to the subs alone does not add up at all. The Spatials with 400wpc available should be giving you way over 110 db unless you’re in an auditorium sized room. If you’ve tried the tests above and you’re getting normal SPL out of the Spatials both with and without Dirac, then there would seem to be something up with one or both sub amps. If that’s the case IMO it would make more sense to work with Danny to resolve and if needed get replacement amps, but it’s your choice/money. Good luck to you.
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I will probably hook up a RCA break out to my oscilloscope to my sub outs, feed it with a signal and see at what voltage output it starts to clip. Although the amp clipping occurs regardless if I use sub outs at 1 volt or pre amp outs at 3.9 volts. I think it is a combination of using Dirac for bass management with this amp. It's trying to pull triple duty. Drive the subs drivers, correct for them and Dirac eats up headroom. These amps are having to do a lot themselves with regards to EQ just to keep the woofers in check with the signal.
The only impact Dirac is going to have on the sub amp is possibly eating up tons of headroom. The processing is all done in your NAD so the amp is seeing an analog signal like normal. Based on my experience, it definitely is possible for Dirac to suck way more headroom than it should which would explain the issue. Hence why I asked if you tried with it turned off to compare SPL levels.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245973)
This is what I have configured. Subs only are playing, no mains ? Sub amps still clip at 80% on main volume. You can see the volume on the subs, I don't think this is out of line. No mains with or without Dirac engaged ?
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I will probably hook up a RCA break out to my oscilloscope to my sub outs, feed it with a signal and see at what voltage output it starts to clip. Although the amp clipping occurs regardless if I use sub outs at 1 volt or pre amp outs at 3.9 volts. I think it is a combination of using Dirac for bass management with this amp. It's trying to pull triple duty. Drive the subs drivers, correct for them and Dirac eats up headroom. These amps are having to do a lot themselves with regards to EQ just to keep the woofers in check with the signal.
The Sub Amps servo control does not eat up power, headroom or result in too much for the amp to process. As Danny said previously, DIRAC is not needed with that Sub amp/driver configuration. DSP, EQ, or DIRAC should only be used to manage peaks - not boost levels to fill in dips. Been there attempting to boost dips in FR. Does not work well to improve sound quality. Tame the peaks is much more successful.
If you are dead set on using DIRAC, you do correctly identify your system configuration in DIRAC before running? Could your listening position be in a room mode null causing DIRAC to overcorrect?
Get a Spectrum Analyzer App for your phone. Find out at what Hz is the lowest tone the system produces without distortion that you can actually hear. If you have REW both tone generator and Spectrum Analyzer are at your fingertips.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245973)
This is what I have configured. Subs only are playing, no mains ? Sub amps still clip at 80% on main volume. You can see the volume on the subs, I don't think this is out of line. No mains with or without Dirac engaged ?
To be sure I understand. Looks like the Sub amp volume is roughly 70%. In addition, the Main Amp volume is at 80%. Is that correct?
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Correct, that is when the Sub and LED's begin flashing on bass heavy tracks. Still no mains though ??
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Correct, that is when the Sub and LED's begin flashing on bass heavy tracks. Still no mains though ??
I can't speak to why mains are not working in that, but it is not how recommended wiring would be done. You want to run the sub and mains in parallel, not serial.
But when you say you are getting clipping at 80%, is that the input clipping light or output? I would expect it to clip at 80% of your mains more or less - that is *a lot* of volume if you are using 400w. I would just not expect you to ever be near 80% of volume.
The more important question is what kind of volume you are getting now at whatever volume setting you run your NAD at normally. Is it still low?
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I may have just realized the mains issue: that is a class D amp and they usually don't have a real ground output. You likely need to wire a touch differently. Your manual should have the info. Here is the REL doc on it since REL does high level inputs almost exclusively. https://rel.net/blog/2017-12-27/how-to/connect-rel-class-d-gear/
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Correct, that is when the Sub and LED's begin flashing on bass heavy tracks. Still no mains though ??
If you leave the Sub Amp volume at that setting, at what point on the Main Amp volume do the LEDs stop blinking? Does one stop blinking before the other, or both operate in unison? Or other way around. Leave Main Amp at 80% and reduce the Sub Amp volume. What do the LEDs do?
If it is correct that the LEDs indicate some kind of problem, then the problem on the input side must be solved. It is either something faulty with the Sub amp input circuitry, fault with the Main Amp, or other mismatch somewhere in your system. That combination of components should be able to produce SPL high enough to be painful.
Your room does not look to be large or filled with sound absorbing material. Do you listen to the Spatial Audio Main speakers by themselves at 80% on the Main Amp Volume?
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Wow, interesting article I will have to check my manual. Just reconnected mains, work for another day.. thanks for all the input. I still have yet to hear from Brian, but did say he would be out of the country. Just really hopeful the new amp configuration is feasible.
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I'm sorry, to answer your question, yes both amps clip within one Db of each other at the relative same time. You can tell it's stereo as bass peaks hit individually between left and right. And yes if I turn down the sub amp volume, the clipping goes away, as does the bass.
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I am going to quote Brian at Rythmik via e-mail when asked if I could turn the Sub system into a sealed system with just changing the servo boards out due to the fact I was not happy with the amp/sub configuration regarding headroom. Just the fact it is an open baffle compared to a sealed sub with this same amp, the OB is at a disadvantage as far as output comparing the two.
This is what Brian had to say. And I believe everything he has to say on the subject as he has his Ph.D. in electrical engineering or something even more wordy :scratch:
" You know all OB main speakers and sub needs a 6db/oct correction which impact the efficiency. Basically starting from 120hz, you cut the maximum output by 50% for every octave down. There are two octave from 120hz down to 30hz "
Brian's words.
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The only impact Dirac is going to have on the sub amp is possibly eating up tons of headroom. The processing is all done in your NAD so the amp is seeing an analog signal like normal. Based on my experience, it definitely is possible for Dirac to suck way more headroom than it should which would explain the issue. Hence why I asked if you tried with it turned off to compare SPL levels.
Dirac on and off make only a few Db difference. I pretty versed in running Dirac room corrections, as I am well read on the subject and don't just let the processor do whatever it wants regarding black hole dips. I simply pull them down on the plot. I really think this OB sub needs a high power class D amp to play at realistic levels. I would love to see the performance difference.
Danny... wouldn't you even be a little interested in knowing ? even for the opportunity to maybe up the game on your sub offerings ??? and please don't say the amp is perfect the way it is :duh: just pulling your leg, but seriously ?
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NoahH could have identified a potential issue. M33 manual does say never connect the blue terminals to earth ground. Could be a ground issue between the NAD and Rhythmic.
Also found in another forum long discussion about M33 owners having problems with DIRAC. Distortion in the 20-100 Hz range. Also, mention of problems across the entire frequency spectrum due to DIRAC erroneous corrections. Some gave up on DIRAC, others "reset" M33, installed new firmware, and installed new version of DIRAC.
Suggest it may require discussion with NAD. The way you describe the LED behavior on the sub amp, appears it is trying to protect itself (as designed) from a bad input signal - plain and simple. Changing to a bigger amp or sealed box will not fix a problem with the source signal.
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Thanks for the additional details, definitely helpful.
Something else I’m wondering that may have been discussed, if so my apologies. Have you tried playing one sub at a time? I’m not sure what process you’ve done to align the phase of your dual subs but if they’re out of phase with each other based on room placement, that could suck all your headroom out too.
I still am trying to figure out why you can’t achieve the same SPL with these that others consistently have. Sure you can get a lot more SPL with any number of monster subs that are on the market but if you’re at 80 db when you should be getting 100+, something is wrong in the chain.
Hope you’re able to figure it out.
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If amplifier power is not utilized to correct sub driver overshoot etc. Where does the additional power come from ??? It's all one system. The amp constantly EQ's the drivers, takes power from somewhere.
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If amplifier power is not utilized to correct sub driver overshoot etc. Where does the additional power come from ??? It's all one system. The amp constantly EQ's the drivers, takes power from somewhere.
It's not quite like this is a discrete thing the amp does. Servo control is basically the same thing as global negative feedback, which your purifi modules do as well. It is looking at the position or velocity of the drivers and, if it is not where the system expects, adds or removes some input voltage before the amp stage. So it can mean adding more input, which eats headroom, but we are not usually talking about a massive portion of signal. Your purifis could have the same core thing happen - their output is a little weak so the feedback mechanism adds more input, eating some headroom.
The bit about 80% volume clipping does not seem like an issue because *if you ever have to turn the volume on your m33 that high, you have bigger issues*. The question is why it needed to go.up that far anyways. The diagnostic challenge is that the M33 is kinda inscrutable for what it is doing. Ex. I glanced at the manual yesterday and the sun outs and line outs are different voltages, which is really weird. The bigger issue is that it is filtering frequencies, and I would not bet on knowing if they are all defeated at any moment. In retrospect, I worry that your test with the speaker level inputs may have lacked bass signal because the m33 was removing that from the mains signal.
Your idea to run a rum signal from an oscilloscope to amp is good. If you have a normal DAC or anything anywhere in the house,.running it straight to the amps is good.
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NoahH is correct regarding the Servo control operation prior to the amplification stage. There is no loss of output Watts due to the Servo system. I looked at the M33 user manual. Lots of features and capabilities with many options for the user to make choices. If it were me, would start at zero with the M33 setup. If the Spatial Audio speakers are not painfully loud at 80% volume, there is something wrong in the M33 configuration or electrically amiss.
It could be as simple as a ground issue between the M33 and Rhythmic amps. Talk to NAD about how to correctly physically connect to a sub amp and correctly set up the M33 for best performance.
Respectfully suggest putting aside some of the pre-conceived notions expressed about open baffle subs and amplification power. Assume nothing, very everything from the start of the signal path.
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Could you borrow someone else's integrated amplifier and see if that fixes the problem? Phoenix is a large city...surely someone would be willing and able to come over and try this very simple test.
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Yes it sounds as like I need to get with NAD and ask if there is something special I should know about hooking up class A/B sub amps ? I thought the article in the link regarding the REL's was interesting. As far as listening to the M3's at 80% on the dial, that is almost always with Dirac engaged. Which is a solid 3Db lower if not a bit more, but as we all know 3Db can sound half as loud depending on the individual. The NAD definitely has all the dynamic headroom into 4 ohms I could ever need. The subs however are two 16ohm nominal drivers wired in parallel which should indicate an 8ohm nominal load on the sub amp. So I would think the mating of the two are incredibly out of kilter. Nothing clips till heavy bass peaks hit at again 80% main volume. If the NAD was driving 8ohm mains I'm sure it would be a more in line match up.
When I hooked up using speaker level connection's only the Subs worked, still clipped sub amp's at same volume. The rest of the signal never passed through to the mains ? This again may be like the REL scenario ?
I still have yet to hear back from Brian at Rythmik regarding trying the 600watt class D amp and swap out the OB servo boards to the larger amp.
I will get with NAD when I can and repost.
Thanks !
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Figuring out if there is some kind of mismatch between the NAD and Rhythmic amps is a must. Simply switching to a different sub amp could leave you with the same mismatch problem. I am becoming highly suspicious of a DC offset causing the flashing LED on the Sub amp input. No Sub amp will like that situation.
Still a head scratcher that it requires 80% of full volume on the NAD to reach the listening level you prefer. I know this is time consuming and frustrating, but there will be a solution discovered.
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" You know all OB main speakers and sub needs a 6db/oct correction which impact the efficiency. Basically starting from 120hz, you cut the maximum output by 50% for every octave down. There are two octave from 120hz down to 30hz "
Brian's words.
Loading them in an H frame design increases front to back separation and output down low. The shelving circuit designed for the OB operation will flatten the response to 20Hz and lower.
Danny... wouldn't you even be a little interested in knowing ? even for the opportunity to maybe up the game on your sub offerings ??? and please don't say the amp is perfect the way it is :duh: just pulling your leg, but seriously ?
We've used the HX800 amps. It produces 400 watts per channel from each amp.
The A370 can drive a pair of duals to peaks of 115db down to 20 to 25Hz with no issues and with headroom to spare, and that is in a pretty good sized room measured from 13 feet away. So the amps have plenty of power. I have the same amps driving a pair of triples in my room. They never run out of power. The amps are not the issue.
I would relook at the sensing coils and trying flipping the polarity on each one of them one at a time and note the differences. It really sounds like one is flipped.
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I still have yet to hear back from Brian at Rythmik regarding trying the 600watt class D amp and swap out the OB servo boards to the larger amp.
Brian is out of the country right now. So you will not hear back from him soon, but I can tell you unequivocally that a bigger amp is not the solution. You have plenty of amp.
I would also highly recommending getting rid of Dirac and implement a LOT of real room treatment. Your system is never going to reach any real performance levels with all of those bare walls. Some good room treatment will be the best investment you make in your whole system.
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So that's the answer.
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Danny, I have verified the wiring 157 times. I have gone and hooked up to the pre-outs instead of the sub-outs as it gave me a 3Db increase on the volume dial. So that is good. Here's the issue I have, due to the OB design itself requires an additional +6Db EQing out of the gate ! That is a LOT of lost power is it not. Clipping is clipping is clipping....I'm sorry
Is there such a thing as too much amplifier in audio ? it eliminates clipping.
" You know all OB main speakers and sub needs a 6db/oct correction which impact the efficiency. Basically starting from 120hz, you cut the maximum output by 50% for every octave down. There are two octave from 120hz down to 30hz "
Brian's words.
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sorry wrong post
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Try removing the NAD from the signal path. Do you have another amp/preamp you can use temporarily?
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Danny, I have verified the wiring 157 times. I have gone and hooked up to the pre-outs instead of the sub-outs as it gave me a 3Db increase on the volume dial. So that is good. Here's the issue I have, due to the OB design itself requires an additional +6Db EQing out of the gate ! That is a LOT of lost power is it not. Clipping is clipping is clipping....I'm sorry
Is there such a thing as too much amplifier in audio ? it eliminates clipping.
" You know all OB main speakers and sub needs a 6db/oct correction which impact the efficiency. Basically starting from 120hz, you cut the maximum output by 50% for every octave down. There are two octave from 120hz down to 30hz "
Brian's words.
All of this is not relevant though if you are getting 80db peaks when others are at 100+ with the same subs in a similar room.
I know I asked above but I didn’t see an answer, have you tried playing the subs one at a time? I’m guessing you did adjust the delay on the subs to time align them with each other but if not, it’s another easy test to check as the subs being out of phase with each other could definitely cause this issue.
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Yes it sounds as like I need to get with NAD and ask if there is something special I should know about hooking up class A/B sub amps ? I thought the article in the link regarding the REL's was interesting. As far as listening to the M3's at 80% on the dial, that is almost always with Dirac engaged. Which is a solid 3Db lower if not a bit more, but as we all know 3Db can sound half as loud depending on the individual. The NAD definitely has all the dynamic headroom into 4 ohms I could ever need. The subs however are two 16ohm nominal drivers wired in parallel which should indicate an 8ohm nominal load on the sub amp. So I would think the mating of the two are incredibly out of kilter. Nothing clips till heavy bass peaks hit at again 80% main volume. If the NAD was driving 8ohm mains I'm sure it would be a more in line match up.
When I hooked up using speaker level connection's only the Subs worked, still clipped sub amp's at same volume. The rest of the signal never passed through to the mains ? This again may be like the REL scenario.
Ask NAD about the behavior overall. Unless your room is a concert hall, there is something very strange happening in general. If you are running at 80% with a 400w amp, to get the main volume where you need it, something is up. Class D watts are usually a little anemic vs class A watts, but that is still really extreme. People go to 80% with smaller tube amps, not with amps like that. For an example, I am using an 75 watt tube amp with my mains in a room that is effectively about 1500 sqft (open plan) and 75% volume is too loud to be in the room with. Different speakers that are a little more sensitive, but not world's more.
Related - amps get further outside their linear range when you push them usually, so your quality is likely degraded. *Note that everything I am saying is separate from the sub questions.* I suspect NAD will tell you that you need a second amp added so you can run them in mono mode or that something else is up.
All the above also reminds me - if you bought the NAD from a dealer, you might ask them to visit. Good dealers will do that.
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Danny, I have verified the wiring 157 times. I have gone and hooked up to the pre-outs instead of the sub-outs as it gave me a 3Db increase on the volume dial. So that is good. Here's the issue I have, due to the OB design itself requires an additional +6Db EQing out of the gate ! That is a LOT of lost power is it not. Clipping is clipping is clipping....I'm sorry
There have been very patient efforts here to help you. At this point I have to be blunt, Sorry. It makes NO sense that you have to run the NAD at 80% of max volume. That is the first problem you need to deal with. You may need a new DIRAC installation or other update from NAD. There are reported cases of problems in those areas.
Secondly, a blinking LED on the Sub amp input indicates a problem with the source signal - again pointing to the NAD. Has nothing to do with Open Baffle design or available Sub amp Watts.
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The NAD definitely has all the dynamic headroom into 4 ohms I could ever need. The subs however are two 16ohm nominal drivers wired in parallel which should indicate an 8ohm nominal load on the sub amp. So I would think the mating of the two are incredibly out of kilter. Nothing clips till heavy bass peaks hit at again 80% main volume. If the NAD was driving 8ohm mains I'm sure it would be a more in line match up.
Sorry, one more thing. The Main speakers Ohm rating and the Sub drivers Ohm rating are irrelevant to mating the two. Volume control on each amp is how you match the sound level of each to your taste.
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Maybe I missed it somewhere on the last 10 pages of discussion but what did you find when you plugged your phone directly into the sub (s) and played a music file? Nothing fancy, just a 1/8” to rca adapter and any mp3, just hear the sub work.
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Well no sense going with the Rythmik 600 watt amp. Just looked at the specs, they are rated at 600watts into 4 ohms, or 200 watts into 8 ohms. So NOTHING will change. Even the A370PEQ says 370watts but doesn't state what ohm load at 370watts. Whatever anymore, seriously.
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So that 370watt amp may only be putting out 180watts per driver, who knows....
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Do you have a different amp/preamp you can put in place of the NAD temporarily?
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So that 370watt amp may only be putting out 180watts per driver, who knows....
I’m curious about your belief the amplifier is underpowered. Are you of the opinion that everyone that has stated these subs are capable of 100+ db in similar sized rooms are lying? Honestly it’s very strange to me that you are getting at least 20 db less than these subs are known to put out in room, and yet you’re seemingly convinced that the problem is the standard amp is underpowered and not a setup issue or defect. What am I missing?
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Danny, I have verified the wiring 157 times. I have gone and hooked up to the pre-outs instead of the sub-outs as it gave me a 3Db increase on the volume dial. So that is good. Here's the issue I have, due to the OB design itself requires an additional +6Db EQing out of the gate ! That is a LOT of lost power is it not. Clipping is clipping is clipping....I'm sorry
Is there such a thing as too much amplifier in audio ? it eliminates clipping.
" You know all OB main speakers and sub needs a 6db/oct correction which impact the efficiency. Basically starting from 120hz, you cut the maximum output by 50% for every octave down. There are two octave from 120hz down to 30hz "
Brian's words.
You are not clipping because you are running out of amplifier power. You have plenty of power. You have something else causing this problem.
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Well they are under warranty, maybe Danny can simply change them out. Like one person said up the thread, maybe you have two bad amps. One does buzz off and on occasionally, Brain said it sounded like a DC offset issue too and I would have to go through Danny as that is where I bought them. I have not heard any offers relating to that from GR Research.
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Well no sense going with the Rythmik 600 watt amp. Just looked at the specs, they are rated at 600watts into 4 ohms, or 200 watts into 8 ohms. So NOTHING will change. Even the A370PEQ says 370watts but doesn't state what ohm load at 370watts. Whatever anymore, seriously.
Again, you don't have a power problem. You have plenty of power.
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Well they are under warranty, maybe Danny can simply change them out. Like one person said up the thread, maybe you have two bad amps. One does buzz off and on occasionally, Brain said it sounded like a DC offset issue too and I would have to go through Danny as that is where I bought them. I have not heard any offers relating to that from GR Research.
Fell free to send them back to me. I can easily hook them up in my system and check them. If there is anything wrong with the amps, I will get you new ones.
I have yet to see any of these amps have this issue, let alone two of them. Something else is causing the issue you are having.
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I will get them shipped to you next week. I will mark the one that buzzes every 5 minutes or so. Brian had me try a bunch of things to no avail. But amp still works. Brian had mentioned DC offset issues. I do have them plugged into a dedicated 20 amp circuit.
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This has nothing to do with the other amp that starts clipping at the same volume setting.
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Any update on the Sub amps going back to Danny for check out?
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Well I meant to get them back to Danny like I had said in my post, but then the wife pointed out with the holiday's coming it might be better to wait as they are still under warranty till March. I just have the right side amp making a grunting sound every minute or so. This is with just the amp itself plugged in with no signal. Maybe it just slipped through QC, who know... Other than the sound it makes it seems to play just fine. I also want to get some SPL legit readings hopefully this weekend. I did a quicky with REW and the Umik1 which is pre calibrated at 75Db. I just held my laptop in one hand and the mic three inches of the dust cap with just music content with low bass notes at random and could achieve 100Db but it was a push on the main volume. when measured at the MLP it mas a mere 88Db. Danny had stated he can easily hit 125Db peaks at 20Hz at fifteen feet away ! that to me seems a bit of a stretch with this amp ? that would I guarantee be clipping the hell out of these amps. By the way, this was with Dirac Live defeated as it does rob power from the signal by basically bringing down the peaks in response.
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Danny had stated he can easily hit 125Db peaks at 20Hz at fifteen feet away! that to me seems a bit of a stretch with this amp ? that would I guarantee be clipping the hell out of these amps.
I said 115db, and they do that easily with no issues and the amps are not clipping at all.
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Well I meant to get them back to Danny like I had said in my post, but then the wife pointed out with the holiday's coming it might be better to wait as they are still under warranty till March. I just have the right side amp making a grunting sound every minute or so. This is with just the amp itself plugged in with no signal. Maybe it just slipped through QC, who know... Other than the sound it makes it seems to play just fine. I also want to get some SPL legit readings hopefully this weekend. I did a quicky with REW and the Umik1 which is pre calibrated at 75Db. I just held my laptop in one hand and the mic three inches of the dust cap with just music content with low bass notes at random and could achieve 100Db but it was a push on the main volume. when measured at the MLP it mas a mere 88Db. Danny had stated he can easily hit 125Db peaks at 20Hz at fifteen feet away ! that to me seems a bit of a stretch with this amp ? that would I guarantee be clipping the hell out of these amps. By the way, this was with Dirac Live defeated as it does rob power from the signal by basically bringing down the peaks in response.
You really need to send the Sub amps back to Danny ASAP. You have mentioned more than once having limited time, yet there seems to be plenty of time to point fingers at the Sub amps. If they are bad or good Danny will tell you. Getting that settled will be positive progress.
Did you buy the NAD amp new or used? Having to run that amp at 80% for an acceptable listening level does not sound right. What SPL level are the Spatial speakers alone producing with the NAD at 80% of maximum?
Dirac does not rob power from anything. It processes the signal in the low voltage circuitry prior to amplification. Dirac does not rob power!!!
You have to interpret the LEDs on the Sub amp properly. Have you ever confirmed what a flashing LED on the input indicates? FACTS are required to solve this problem. Speculation is nothing but time wasted.
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I have set aside time for tomorrow. Going to run SPL measurements. And Oscilloscope outputs of the M33 sub and pre amp outputs for clipping and also the plate amps output at clipping. Hell, maybe it's the M33 outs to the sub amps that are clipping? And apologize for not having the dedicated time at my disposal for all of this. If I can't find the answer tomorrow. I will get the amps out. Sorry for misquoting you Danny. My apologies
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I have checked for clipping at woofer terminals and can't get 40hz sine wave to clip on scope, but at 40hz at 18volts, red LEDs are lit solid. I of course turned things down immediately. Perhaps it's the servo system going into overload?? Still had nice smooth crest's?? I am now trying speaker level connection's but can't get signal to pass through to mains at all ?? Wondering if this could be a Class D integrated issue?? I'm going to have to get with NAD on this I'm afraid. Kind of at a loss right now? Have any of you had issues with speaker level inputs not passing to mains ?
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Have any of you had issues with speaker level inputs not passing to mains ?
The M33 has balanced speaker level outputs. I suspect the relaying of a signal through the plate amp was not designed for a balanced signal. But it does not matter - you generally want to run the subs and mains in parallel. Running your speaker signal through a bunch of extra couplings is really not a good sound quality idea.
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I have checked for clipping at woofer terminals and can't get 40hz sine wave to clip on scope, but at 40hz at 18volts, red LEDs are lit solid. I of course turned things down immediately. Perhaps it's the servo system going into overload?? Still had nice smooth crest's?? I am now trying speaker level connection's but can't get signal to pass through to mains at all ?? Wondering if this could be a Class D integrated issue?? I'm going to have to get with NAD on this I'm afraid. Kind of at a loss right now? Have any of you had issues with speaker level inputs not passing to mains ?
OK. You see a nice clean 40Hz sine at the woofer terminals. That should mean the sub amp output is a clean, non-distorted signal. Hmmm, so what do the LEDs mean?
Do you know for a fact that the LEDs indicate clipping? I would assume they are there to indicate some sort of problem, but assuming only leads to trouble.
Did you check for DC offset at the sub amp input/NAD output?
What does the servo signal at the woofer look like?
More investigation with a scope and voltmeter might uncover the problem. However, pointed questions for NAD and Brian are more likely to sort this problem. Nobody using GR Research subs has yet to come forward with a similar problem. This is a head scratcher.
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I've looked at all of the Rythmik plate amp photos and I only see a single led above the switch marked on/auto/off. In the auto position it’s also marked limiter which makes me think it indicates when the limiter engages. I don’t have this product, but I’ve been reading along because I’m looking to upgrade my current sub amps and Rythmik is a brand I’m reading about.
As always, I can be wrong but it appears a mass of easy diagnostics have been ignored and the led blinking could be another.
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I've looked at all of the Rythmik plate amp photos and I only see a single led above the switch marked on/auto/off. In the auto position it’s also marked limiter which makes me think it indicates when the limiter engages. I don’t have this product, but I’ve been reading along because I’m looking to upgrade my current sub amps and Rythmik is a brand I’m reading about.
As always, I can be wrong but it appears a mass of easy diagnostics have been ignored and the led blinking could be another.
You may have identified the problem.
The blinking LEDs assumed to indicate clipping are on the circuitry side of the amp. That location would not normally be visible to the user and was questioned previously. What those LEDs actually indicate has been questioned. Unfortunately, information on the Rythmik web site could be better.
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They are overload indicators. Maybe Danny knows what the red lights are? Brian never emailed me back.
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They are overload indicators. Maybe Danny knows what the red lights are? Brian never emailed me back.
Does it seem odd to you that overload indicators would be on the circuitry side that is typically not visible to the user?
My internet searches could find nothing about those LEDs. Brian needs to explain precisely what those LEDs are intended to convey. Overload? DC offset? Failure?
Previously mentioned regarding the NAD, some cases reported of DIRAC requiring a fresh install.
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I have checked for clipping at woofer terminals and can't get 40hz sine wave to clip on scope, but at 40hz at 18volts, red LEDs are lit solid. I of course turned things down immediately. Perhaps it's the servo system going into overload?? Still had nice smooth crest's?? I am now trying speaker level connection's but can't get signal to pass through to mains at all ?? Wondering if this could be a Class D integrated issue?? I'm going to have to get with NAD on this I'm afraid. Kind of at a loss right now? Have any of you had issues with speaker level inputs not passing to mains ?
Are you quoting the 18v correct? That seems way too high for output voltage over RCA, that would cause most inputs to clip go into some form of protections mode.
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Exactly at 18 volts at 40hz anyway. I listen probably louder than most. Im connected to pre outs now, at 3.9volts instead of the sub outputs at 1volt.
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The amount of power that you are sending these things should be giving you a ton of output.
I know you keep saying that you have them wired correctly, but everything still points to not having them wired correctly.
This also makes me cringe a little. I listen probably louder than most.
Your picture is of a pair of spatial speakers in a completely untreated room, or at least nothing on the front walls, corners, or immediate sides.
Open baffle speakers really need to have a front wall that is almost covered in something that will break up and/or absorb the back waves. Those corners really need some traps too.
I recently heard some Spatial X4's in a treated room, and then in the same room with all of the treatment removed, and with all of the treatment removed it was completely un-listenable. They were unbearable at any level over a normal speaking voice level.
So I can't help but think your room is as large or even a larger problem than your issue with not having bass output from the servo subs.
I would highly recommend corner traps, wall panels (absorbers), and diffusers to cover most of the up front area.
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It's funny you say that Danny. I moved everything into my fireplace room, long rectangular room. Just threw up a few panels to kill the zingers ! Sounds much smoother after analyzing and correcting with REW. Kicked Dirac to the curb for now as it is pretty darn smooth now without Dirac. However the amps perform the same. Room treatment can't reduce circuit overloads in electronics.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246547)
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Nice! Now keep going with that. Some diffusion between your corner traps and the fireplace would be good.
Keep going down the side walls too.
Also, the space behind your corner traps will work even better with a bunch of loose insulation behind it. The thicker the better for corners and low bass.
You have something going on with the amps, wiring, or with what is driving them. We'll solve it.
Send the amps to me and I'll try them in my system right away and let you know what happens.
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Are you quoting the 18v correct? That seems way too high for output voltage over RCA, that would cause most inputs to clip go into some form of protections mode.
He said measured at the woofer terminals so that is the output of the amp. 18V on the input to the sub amp would be a BIG problem.
Unanswered question remains. What do the LEDs he observes flashing actually indicate? Still cannot fathom the NAD amp volume at 80% to achieve an acceptable listening SPL.
Am I misunderstanding? It takes 80% of the NAD output capability to drive the Spatial speakers to a satisfactory listening volume.
Take Danny's offer and send him the Sub amps pronto.
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This still does not satisfy my curiosity. Line level ought to be 1.4 volts at +4dBu and an amp output of 18v into 4 ohms is only 81 watts, that just can’t be enough to clip any robust sub speaker. Something is definitely sideways here.
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This still does not satisfy my curiosity. Line level ought to be 1.4 volts at +4dBu and an amp output of 18v into 4 ohms is only 81 watts, that just can’t be enough to clip any robust sub speaker. Something is definitely sideways here.
Agree. Wish there was somebody nearby dallaire that could help out.
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I will get them out this week to you Danny. I know Ron B. had possession of am M33 for review some time ago, if he still has it that would be great for testing. Just don't know if it was a loaner or not ?
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This morning I have shipped 1 of the amps back, the one that has intermittent "buzzing" every minute or so, yet still plays fine. I have read on Claytons forum that one of his members had to send back one of his as well with the same issue. I am doing this so Danny can send me back an amp that he deems "fine". I will then reinstall it into the system and see if it lights up the overload indicators at the same volume level as before. Both amp simultaneously would overload at exactly the same volume, so I find it incredibly hard to assume they are both bad. I don't want to incur the cost of shipping for 2 amps if the one I get back doesn't behave any differently. When I get the amp back that is deemed "perfectly fine" and does happen to not go into overload at the same level, THEN I will know to send the other amp back as well. I am not too hopeful the amp, once returned with "no buzzing" will overload any different than the one I'm holding on to for now. It would be great to see it NOT light up. Guess time will tell.
You should have the amp on the 23rd Danny via UPS
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This morning I have shipped 1 of the amps back, the one that has intermittent "buzzing" every minute or so, yet still plays fine. I have read on Claytons forum that one of his members had to send back one of his as well with the same issue. I am doing this so Danny can send me back an amp that he deems "fine". I will then reinstall it into the system and see if it lights up the overload indicators at the same volume level as before. Both amp simultaneously would overload at exactly the same volume, so I find it incredibly hard to assume they are both bad. I don't want to incur the cost of shipping for 2 amps if the one I get back doesn't behave any differently. When I get the amp back that is deemed "perfectly fine" and does happen to not go into overload at the same level, THEN I will know to send the other amp back as well. I am not too hopeful the amp, once returned with "no buzzing" will overload any different than the one I'm holding on to for now. It would be great to see it NOT light up. Guess time will tell.
You should have the amp on the 23rd Danny via UPS
I'll check it out when it gets here.
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Both amp simultaneously would overload at exactly the same volume, so I find it incredibly hard to assume they are both bad. . . . . . . I am not too hopeful the amp, once returned with "no buzzing" will overload any different than the one I'm holding on to for now. It would be great to see it NOT light up. Guess time will tell.
Sorry if I missed confirmation of precisely what the LEDs blinking/on mean to eliminate assumptions? Thought you said earlier Brian at Rythmik never replied. Did you find the function of the LEDs defined somewhere in Rythmik documentation? It does not make much sense for Rythmik to put overload indicator LEDs in a location that would in 99% of installations not be visible.
While waiting on Danny's diagnosis, suggest it would be good use of the time to discuss the issue with NAD.
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I woke this morning at the usual 3:30 having coffee in my listening room just to hear now the other amp intermittently "buzzing" !!! Will be shipping this one back as well. The other was louder than this one so I never really noticed it. This is with nothing but a power cord plugged in! I have never had buyers remorse so bad in my life. And I have to pay for shipping under warranty ! Really ??? Buyer beware! I would ask Brian but he seems unreachable huh? Don't even trust these amps anymore.
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I will be contacting NAD for sure. If that is the issue I would be VERY surprised! But if it is, then I will stand corrected as a man and extended my deepest apologies to GR Research!
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I just wrote Brian at Rythmik, quote
"Hello Brian, can you please tell me what the RED LEDs indicate when flashing on the circuit side of the A370PEQ. I am assuming clipping indicators ? I have been having problems with the lights flashing at moderate to high volume levels. I am hooked up to an NAD M33 class D integrated amp using the "preamp outputs at 3.9volts" I have sent back to Danny one amp because of buzzing loudly while idle with nothing but a power cord hooked up. Now this morning I have discovered the other amp starting to "buzz" quite loudly in a dead quiet room. I am very frustrated. I don't know how else to hook them up ? I tried the speaker level connections to no avail, wouldn't pass signal on to the mains ?
Also I have noticed on your site, in the "amplifier spec section" it clearly calls out power output for all amps into "4 ohm loads" but on the A370PEQ it just says "370 watts" ? into what load?
Thanks Brian"
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I have done all the research I can on the NAD to no avail regarding subwoofer issues. I did however stumble upon a recall on Rythmik amps on AVS forum dated back to January 2021. I do not know what amps where recalled but mine were purchased on May 29th 2021.
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Have you checked to see if a firmware update is available for the M33?
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I woke this morning at the usual 3:30 having coffee in my listening room just to hear now the other amp intermittently "buzzing" !!! Will be shipping this one back as well. The other was louder than this one so I never really noticed it. This is with nothing but a power cord plugged in! I have never had buyers remorse so bad in my life. And I have to pay for shipping under warranty ! Really ??? Buyer beware! I would ask Brian but he seems unreachable huh? Don't even trust these amps anymore.
The buzzing you hear may be DC on your lines. One of mine did the same randomly but hasn’t buzzed once since I put them on my Puritan line conditioner. It’s just coming from the amp itself and not through the speakers, correct?
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Yes, coming from the amp only. This just tells me the mains input filtering on these amps is WAY less than desirable. I have to sit in a quite room with company and have someone say "what's that buzzing noise" ? to which I reply "that's just my amplifiers buzzing". wow. I Guess if you have them in a sealed, sound damped enclosure it may be fine and inaudible ? but for an OB situation, no way...they should come with a sheet of NO REZ.
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Yes, coming from the amp only. This just tells me the mains input filtering on these amps is WAY less than desirable. I have to sit in a quite room with company and have someone say "what's that buzzing noise" ? to which I reply "that's just my amplifiers buzzing". wow. I Guess if you have them in a sealed, sound damped enclosure it may be fine and inaudible ? but for an OB situation, no way...they should come with a sheet of NO REZ.
You're blaming the gear again. If it's a DC problem, you have dirty power. That's an easy fix. However, it sounds like you have multiple issues.
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I am trying to get the performance I paid for and read about before purchase. So now I need a power regenerator ?? please tell me your kidding...
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I am trying to get the performance I paid for and read about before purchase. So now I need a power regenerator ?? please tell me your kidding...
Power "conditioner" not regenerator. You are paying for an amplifier not for anyone to come to your house and clean your power.
DC on AC lines is a known problem, both your amps buzzing sounds like something other than defects.
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Sorry I was just being sarcastic about the power regenerator. I just measured the DC offset at the speaker leads, 7.4uV I left the leads of the DMM attached so I could wait for a transformer groan to cycle, still held firm at 7.4uV
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I've read this entire thread and keep going back to two points that the OP has mentioned. One being that he is listening to music or getting clipping (on the subs) at 80% on the volume dial on a $6k integrated with around 400 watts going to VERY efficient speakers. I would guess that this system (if set up correctly (and I mean no disrespect to the OP by saying that)) at 80% volume would be concert level DB and literally chase anyone out of the room rather quickly. So I'm wondering if possibly either the input signal (source) is abnormally low that the NAD has to be turned up so much that the output to the sub amps is clipping? (for instance when streaming from my macbook, i occasionally have the volume down on the macbooks output to my dac, which in turn causes me to turn the volume up to abnormally high on my preamp to get the volume I need) Could there be some settings in the NAD's system that are not correct? Possible some partial muting or something like that? Have you tried a different source, streamer, cd player, etc? In reviews of the NAD I have not read anyone having concerns that it has to be turned up an excessive amount to get adequate volume out of it. The second point, and forgive me if I have missed it along the way but it sounded as though the wiring or phase of the subs was in question. Correct me if I am wrong, but one woofer is facing front and one facing back. One of the woofers 'should' be wired out of phase with the other so that an input signal pushes the both woofers towards or away from the listener simultaneously regardless of the woofers orientation in the cabinet, right? I thought the OP said he had them wired so one was firing forward and the other firing opposite. If that is the case I would guess that would cause the original issue all in itself. Also, if they were wired this way, (opposite) and the OP went to correct the issue WITHOUT correcting the servo wiring on that woofer we can see how this would cause an issue as well.
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You nailed it. Like I said this amp and the M3's simply walk away from the subs ability.
Brian, and I quote.
"Yes, the red LED on circuit board is clipping. Is the buzzing from the transformer or from the speaker driver?"
I have of this writing not replied yet.
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As others have noted, it sure sounds like the speakers are wired incorrectly. If the servo wires are wired incorrectly, the poor amp would be fighting itself trying to correct the position. I don't know exactly how this circuit works, but I could imagine that this could cause problems for the amp.
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Reply from Brian, quote
"it is not the amplifier is under power, it is the limitation of OB subwoofer. OB subwoofer loses quite a bit of efficiency because of the front wave and back wave cancelation. At 20hz, one single sealed driver has the equivalent output of 4 OB drivers. You cannot use 14hz extension setting for OB sub."
As I had said before regarding Linkwitz work. OB has its limitations due to physics, I guess I expected simply more output "without clipping". I don't always listen at those levels mentioned. Just like owning a Lambo doesn't mean you drive 200 miles an hour all the time, but when the time presents itself, yeah, I want the ability to open it up ! that is what this hobby is all about to me.
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Well, I think we all understand that OB woofers require more cone area/excursion to deliver the same bass output, which is why Danny recommends at least two drivers and most users have a pair of doubles or triples.
I have a pair of triples and have the extension set at 20Hz, not 14Hz. They produce way more than enough bass. Certainly as much as from any system I've heard at trade shows or any of the many other systems I've owned over the past 50 years.
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You nailed it. Like I said this amp and the M3's simply walk away from the subs ability.
Brian, and I quote.
"Yes, the red LED on circuit board is clipping. Is the buzzing from the transformer or from the speaker driver?"
I have of this writing not replied yet.
Per Brian, the LEDs indicate clipping. One LED is on the input and one on the output - Correct? Therefore, a clipping indication on the input side means the source signal from the NAD has a problem. Either the NAD signal is clipped - quite possibly due to 80% max volume, or there is DC offset, voltage or impedance mismatch between Sub amp and NAD, or other problem WITH THE SOURCE. The subwoofer amp is screaming at you there is something not right about the input signal.
The problem with the source signal MUST be resolved before you can expect ANY subwoofer amp to work properly.
Your are reading too much into Brian's comments about Open Baffle subwoofers. One 250W sub amp, 4 drivers, no servo control, no DIRAC and I can make pictures on the wall dance. Nowhere near max volume on the sub amp or main speaker amp.
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Brian never said one LED was for input and one for output, I had said that maybe the case. Brian assured me it's simply the limitations of OB bass. AGAIN, as Linkwitz came to the same conclusions. Hey, don't get me wrong, they sound fantastic! Just don't expect references levels without problems.
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In my setup, the x3 hits clipping in the bass long before the servo subs.
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Brian never said one LED was for input and one for output, I had said that maybe the case. Brian assured me it's simply the limitations of OB bass. AGAIN, as Linkwitz came to the same conclusions. Hey, don't get me wrong, they sound fantastic! Just don't expect references levels without problems.
Okay, then we still do not have complete facts to work with. Another possibility for 2 LEDs is one for output and one for the servo circuit. Just a different rabbit hole to go down without facts. Regardless, Danny will be able to find out if there is anything wrong with the sub amps.
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Okay, then we still do not have complete facts to work with. Another possibility for 2 LEDs is one for output and one for the servo circuit. Just a different rabbit hole to go down without facts. Regardless, Danny will be able to find out if there is anything wrong with the sub amps.
Agreed.
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In my setup, the x3 hits clipping in the bass long before the servo subs.
Interesting, I wonder if it is due to the fact that the wrap around effect happens much more quickly on a comparatively thin baffle on the X3's as the tunnel of the H frame design has to delay the cancelation effect due to the length front to back ? and not having a servo system has got to play a big roll.
I thought Clayton went back to all passive and ditched the powered woofer ?? thought I read that somewhere..
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Brian never said one LED was for input and one for output, I had said that maybe the case. Brian assured me it's simply the limitations of OB bass. AGAIN, as Linkwitz came to the same conclusions. Hey, don't get me wrong, they sound fantastic! Just don't expect references levels without problems.
That's not a very good business model for Brian to take...my amps suck if you expect any kind of significant output out of them for OB bass. I would have never bought them if this were the case and Brian marketed them this way. Don't really think that is what he meant with his comments to you. What you have is NOT normal operation as attested to by all kinds of owners. Either the amps are bad (not likely for both of them), or you have other issues (most likely).
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Interesting, I wonder if it is due to the fact that the wrap around effect happens much more quickly on a comparatively thin baffle on the X3's as the tunnel of the H frame design has to delay the cancelation effect due to the length front to back ? and not having a servo system has got to play a big roll.
I thought Clayton went back to all passive and ditched the powered woofer ?? thought I read that somewhere..
It's more a matter of swept volume. The dual 12's have more surface area than the single 15, and they have WAY MORE peak to peak excursion. They produce a LOT more bass than the X series speakers.
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I’m no expert, but I have a 4x15” Infinite baffle sub with non servo drivers. When I have them EQ’d fairly flat to 10 hz. there is lower extension but these frequencies in music are harmonics not fundamentals. It robs more amp. power and does not add any of the “punch you may be looking for. Not only that but with the Fletcher-Munson curve, you are probably drowning out some of the lowest frequencies at lower DB level anyway. Try the 20 hz. setting. Add that to the increasing cancellation of the omnidirectional lowest frequencies and you may inch closer to what I perceive your problem to be. As for the buzzing, I don’t know if the Ryhmic Amps have 3 prong plugs or not, but, if they do, try a cheater plug and see if the buzz disappears. 🤷♀️
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I have even run them at 28hz low damping to get more headroom.
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I didn't go back through to see what medium you are using for music. If you have Roon, use your room response graph and use Roon's parametric EQ and subtract out the big peaks and try using no gain to achieve more headroom.
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Qobuz, no roon. Peaks in new room are not to bad. Didn't even implement single band parametric on sub amp yet.
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Okay, got a moment to test for clipping on the M33 at the "pre-outs" full tilt main volume at 40Hz and NO clipping at pre amp outputs.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246850)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246851)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246852)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246853)
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246860)
The voltage is lower than expected on the scope coming out of the pre amp out's ? Subwoofer outs, put out 1V but pre amp outs should be 3.9V. Input to the pre amp inputs on M33 says-( LINE IN, Input Sensitivity 280mV(ref 500mVout, Volume maximum)) (Maximum input level 2Vrms/8Vrms (low sensitivity mode)).
my computer soundcard clips right after the level shown on my DDM.
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Those that can't see the reading, it's 15.3mV on the SC right before clipping it's output. perhaps I need to dig out an old interface that's capable of delivering more input voltage to the pre amp inputs.
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3.9V is almost three times normal +4dbu line level out in the analog world. 0 dbu is 0.77volts, which is where the meter reads before going into the red. Seems pretty hot, but I’ve been wrong before. All the same that’s like a +14 dbu output which is massive distortion in the analog world. FWIW my Vidar is rated to achieve full output with a tad over 1.2v input, a point I’ve never reached but I expect would have the two monoblocks driving our XLS-S towers puking speaker parts across the room.
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Did you look at the subwoofer out waveform? Isn't that what should be sent to the subwoofer amps?
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Don't use the subwoofer out. Use RCA Y-splitters on your main 2 channel RCA outputs.
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That was the pre amp outputs, not the sub pre out's. I've already tested the output at clipping on the sub amp leads at 40Hz. Sub amp clipped at 18 volts, using my pre amp outputs.
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I'm running splitters on the sub amps.
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This voltage reading is without splitter adapter.
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I don’t understand where the “preamp should be 3.9v” comes from. 3.9v will drive 4 ohm speakers close to three watts, that’s a speaker level output.
https://www.prosoundtraining.com/2018/08/09/audio-power-amplifier-maximum-input-voltage/
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That's simply what NAD says is the voltage output rms at the pre amp outputs.
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Ok then, it’s from the maker. All the same it’s enough to drive your main speakers to 90dB or so. The 1 volt from the sub out is a proper level to drive the plate amp to full output; there’s just not enough documentation from Rythmik so the only thing I can do is guess and I don’t know enough about their “servo” system to move forward. I'd guess everything about the rear firing speaker would be out of phase, certainly the speaker leads but likely the servo leads, too, since they’re reading the magnetic field at the voice coil. Or it could just be bad amps. An independent music source might rule that out, even a dusty iPod jacked right into the sub, but that’s your call.
I did go to the NAD site, read the specs and look at the amp. Those double speaker outputs look perfect for driving a plate amp thru the high level in.
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I didn't have any luck with the plate amp passing the high level signal to the main speakers at all.
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Don't use the subwoofer out. Use RCA Y-splitters on your main 2 channel RCA outputs.
This is how I have mine set up as well. Split RCA from main line out into the RCA in on the plate amp. If you’re not doing that, why not give it a try?
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I didn't have any luck with the plate amp passing the high level signal to the main speakers at all.
I meant to duplicate the main output, those spade connectors to the Ms and a banana plug from the same post to the plate amp high level in. After I thought about it the amp might not like driving no speaker load from the B main outputs; I don’t know the amp so it’s a WAG. My guess is that the maker's intention is to jump off the speaker posts of the main speaker but tube connectors don’t offer that option so it would need to come from the amp posts.
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I didn't have any luck with the plate amp passing the high level signal to the main speakers at all.
Looking at the way you had it wired, you had the mains coming off the right channel line in, and with NAD feeding the left channel line in. It isnt a pass through, you are supposed to run another wire to the plate so its in parallel. It also looks like the crossover dip switch is in the middle, which is the AVR/LFE setting for an external crossover. If you were using the line outs, and havent changed that setting since you were using the sub outs, then you are sending a hot full range signal unfiltered to the plate which I would imagine it would not like.
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Thanks for pointing that out. I have never used the speaker level inputs before and no info on Brian's quick guide for this specifically. It's all now reconfigured with treatment in a different room now.
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Did you get the amp back from Danny already? What did he say?
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Funny you brought that up. I was just going to check my tracking number. Danny should have gotten the delivery on 11/23 tentatively?
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UPS tracking says delivered on 11/21, got there earlier than expected.
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UPS tracking says delivered on 11/21, got there earlier than expected.
I hooked your amp up in my system today and gave it a workout.
I cranked up bass heavy tracks that included some big procession hits from the Blue Man Group, some Chinese Drums, Evanescence Breath no More (live), No Doubt's Hella Good, Bo Stief Dream Machine's Heart, and several others.
I set the amp up on the transformer and set my other amp up on its end (mounted in a four sided box) to watch for the LED lights.
Both your amp and mine flickered the LED lights at the same time one heavy bass notes.
They were both driving triple servo subs. So the impedance was lower and had more current demand on the amp than just powering doubles.
SPL peaks in room were easily hitting 100+ db levels with ease. Woofers maintained great control and were super tight.
I also set the settings on the 14Hz extension, with low damping, and the rumble filter off. That is where I normally keep mine. No issues at all.
These were easily keeping up with the NX-Tremes that measure 94.5db. Amps had to be turned up to a 3 o'clock setting to match the output levels of the NX-Treme. Your Spatial Audio M3 Sapphire's are rated at about 91db. So keeping up with them should be a piece of cake with headroom to spare.
I also asked Brian about the LED lights and got this response.
The two red LED on the power amp board indicates the power rail has temporarily switch to high voltage rail: one LED for each power rail. When it is off, it means the power rail stays at half voltage rail to save power. These two are debugging LEDs to make sure when there is no signal, the power rails should be at half voltage level and when high demanding signal comes in, they can switch to full high voltage so that it has the correct max output. Older class A/B based A370 amps do not use rail switching and therefore does not have these two lights. If I have to guess, I would say the amp will begin to switch to high voltage rail when the output is about half to a third of full max output which is about 6-9db.
I also noted that after about 30 minutes of hard play your amp wasn't even warm.
And man, Amy Lee's voice is mic'ed up hot in that song and really loud at the levels I was playing it. It felt like a concert in front of me, and the bass guitar had really good texture and power. I could feel the strings. It ripped.
So back to your issue. Again, check your wiring. Just as it did from the beginning, it still sounds like you may have the woofers wired improperly.
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I am glad to hear all of this Danny. I have to be totally transparent with regard to bass levels. I am one to believe in the Fletcher Munson curves regarding the non linearity of human hearing, however I think I have lost some of my love for this phenomenon. I curranty have one sub as assumed, and can say, I still like a downward tilt or "house curve" as some call it, yet I'm beginning to think the sound is just more natural and "less masking" of the remains of the audible spectrum without the low end rise. Like E-bird had suggested "my ears will grow". I think he has a point here. I have noticed the bass is going to take some time to get really integrated, looking at all the data ! two are definitely better than one as far as room integration goes. Much smoother integrated response ! I'm glad to hear the amp is working properly. On a serious note, I will be building sound deadening amp boxes or DC knockout adapters as these amps need to be in a sound damped enclosure to kill the buzz of DC offset they absorb. After all its a plate amp, and is meant to be in a box. Brian has given me good advice as to what to purchase to alleviate the situation regarding transformer "hum/buzz"
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I'm just a little confused? Brian clearly said these were clipping indicators??? Or is that what you just said in technical engineering terms?
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I'm just a little confused? Brian clearly said these were clipping indicators??? Or is that what you just said in technical engineering terms?
They do not indicate clipping.
This quote that I posted was directly form Brian:
"The two red LED on the power amp board indicates the power rail has temporarily switch to high voltage rail: one LED for each power rail. When it is off, it means the power rail stays at half voltage rail to save power. These two are debugging LEDs to make sure when there is no signal, the power rails should be at half voltage level and when high demanding signal comes in, they can switch to full high voltage so that it has the correct max output. Older class A/B based A370 amps do not use rail switching and therefore does not have these two lights. If I have to guess, I would say the amp will begin to switch to high voltage rail when the output is about half to a third of full max output which is about 6-9db."
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In my experience when the amps clip, or when the woofers are pushed past their excursion limits, the front-facing power LED turns off to prevent over-driving or damaging the woofers.
My subs use the smaller/older HX300 with dual 8" woofers in a U-Frame stand my speakers sit on, so they're limited in deep bass output compared to 12" woofers in an H-frame, especially in large/wide rooms, and on occasion when they get pushed too hard, the power light simply turns off, but that's pretty rare unless I'm pushing deep bass notes playing Pete Belasco's "Deeper."
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Interesting, I will have to check for that to happen. Never seen the backside of the amp while listening as they are not in sight.
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It never made any sense for clipping indicators to be on the back of the amps. Now we know that the amps are functioning properly.
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Just sounds like it's a weird wiring issue.
Bad connector? Poor soldering? Something that's a PITA to diagnose. If you have the time, are you able to just completely redo all of it?
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It's been a long time since I wired them but I seem to remember that the woofers had to be wired in parallel and the servo wiring was done in series.
Or maybe I have it flipped. But the main point is that the wiring is different, might want to check your wiring on that.
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Yeah I have checked it several times, woofers in parallel servo in series. Danny just keeps saying it lol. They have been correct. I guess we just ignore the lights and enjoy.
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Yeah I have checked it several times, woofers in parallel servo in series. Danny just keeps saying it lol. They have been correct. I guess we just ignore the lights and enjoy.
No matter how many times you've checked your wiring, it could still be wrong (I speak from experience :o). There's a simple solution -- allow others to check your wiring by shooting a short video and posting it here.
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Have you determined what source from the NAD should drive the Sub amps?
When you get everything hooked up again, experiment with the phase control on the Sub amps. If you are letting the main speakers play all the way down, make sure the Subs and mains are not fighting each other. Took me a while to discover Subs amp phase at 180 made a big difference in SPL and detail. Maybe that is due to Ripole Sub configuration?
Don't get hung up on Harman or other "house" curves. Adjust to your taste, but DSP should be used sparingly. For a long time, I tried boosting various frequencies below 45 Hz. After removing all boost, and notching out a 50 Hz peak the really low information appeared. Good Luck.
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Have you determined what source from the NAD should drive the Sub amps?
When you get everything hooked up again, experiment with the phase control on the Sub amps. If you are letting the main speakers play all the way down, make sure the Subs and mains are not fighting each other. Took me a while to discover Subs amp phase at 180 made a big difference in SPL and detail. Maybe that is due to Ripole Sub configuration?
Don't get hung up on Harman or other "house" curves. Adjust to your taste, but DSP should be used sparingly. For a long time, I tried boosting various frequencies below 45 Hz. After removing all boost, and notching out a 50 Hz peak the really low information appeared. Good Luck.
Your phase point is super good. That could easily be the issue. It is one of the reasons why everyone suggests only doing DSP at the very end and manually getting everything as good as possible without it, and only activating it at the end (if at all).
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When other OB sub owners wire their servos, do they wire the rear facing servo out of phase like the speaker coil?
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There’s a thread all about this.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=149708.0
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When other OB sub owners wire their servos, do they wire the rear facing servo out of phase like the speaker coil?
Short answer, yes. The voice coil and servo coil must be wired with the same phase relationship.
J.P.
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It's quite a simple schematic to follow. Seriously, people only get hung up if they have the second woofer facing opposite direction. Drivers are still parallel, servo series.
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I just have a few final comment's on this entire thread. I realize Danny, you are a salesman and have to say whatever you need to in order to keep sales up. I totally get it. These speakers are no different than any speaker EVER made ! these subs are no exception, they have compromise's and limitations. If it weren't for the servo portion of these amps, they would be NOTHING special. I can honestly say I have never heard as much noise from any design in my life regarding A/B amp design, but in Brian's defense they are made to be burred in a sealed dampened enclosure. These amps clip on high level bass peaks "period" with an OB design. You can say whatever you want about that. I have asked the owner/designer himself regarding these amps, they are clipping. Brian has his PhD in Electrical Engineering and has explained to me as I have posted pages ago, the problem is the OB design is taxing the amp clean out of any headroom it would have had in a sealed design, (this is a fact). At high levels due to the front/back wave cancelation effect (Physics) again. I can get 100Db also, but not low, without clipping. Sorry. I was going to spend all sorts of time filming and running tone burst and taking readings at different frequencies so you can all in fact SEE what the shortcomings are with this design, but I've decided we've all probably heard enough.
When can I get the amp back from you Danny ? I'm sure I have to pay of course. And I'll just say, keep up the good work Danny, you sold me ! And I like to think I make pretty good informed purchasing decisions. You have skirted, ignored and flat out disregarded any direct questions or concerns to save your limited performing product. Again they sound great, I will admit, just don't play them loud. If anyone needs me to repost the actual e-mail correspondence with Brian I can. I quoted him verbatim. As far as not have two woofers wired correctly, that is not the case. I would encourage anyone with the LED's to flip their own amps, play some load, low content and take in the light show !!! CLIPPING.
I have held this back for a long time. I received a call from one of your "supposed" friends and colleague warning me to be carful implementing these subs with the M3's. I would NEVER tell on an open forum, who that someone is, but I will say he sure knows what he's talking about. I obviously just disregarded his warning and here I have been. Anyway, live and learn I guess. Your pride in your product is just a little over the top Danny. This coming from a man that basically makes a living tearing down other engineers that would probably lose there job if they couldn't hit a price point with a design. Must be nice to put everyone on blast with what a crappy job "they" have done. Check your own eye my friend, you may have something in it yourself.
Vince
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Here's one more thing to check. If there's no wiring problem and no setup problem, and if the issue is you just listen very loud and the subs are reaching their limit, here's how to check that:
Run the subs to the point where you feel like the amps are clipping. While the song is playing, go over to the subs and visually check out how far the drivers are moving back and forth. If you are listening to music very loud and the subs are at their limit you will be able to see the woofers moving back and forth VERY FAR. Like close to 2 inches back and forth.
If that's happening, then maybe you just listen much louder than most people. On the other hand, if you don't see the drivers flapping around like crazy, then there's a problem somewhere. Probably with your NAD or with the wiring.
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Can I suggest we let this thread die? This has been a painful exercise for everyone who has tried to help. I know it is my own choice that I click into this topic periodically, but I suspect that if it he advice so far has not gotten anywhere in 15 pages of posts, it is not going to now.
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At times, this hobby can seem frustrating -- we've all been there. Danny, along with the fellas on AC, has been exceedingly patient and accommodating in attempting to help you at every step, so that's something to be thankful for. However, badmouthing the product and denigrating Danny isn't going to resolve your issue. Take a deep breath, dude. In spite of everything you've said, we're still on your side.
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Just reading this thread over the past few weeks has been exhausting. To the OP, just sell your subs and buy something else. Open baffle subs are not for you (or me). I have a pair of sealed 12" Rythmik's because I was certain I would not appreciate the acquired taste that is OB subs. Nothing wrong with them, just not my cup of tea.
Multiple posters, including Danny have been extremely patient and helpful here....cut your losses and buy subs that will achieve the sound you are looking for. I'm sure you can recoup your initial investment and will be happy/satisfied.
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I just have a few final comment's on this entire thread. I realize Danny, you are a salesman and have to say whatever you need to in order to keep sales up. I totally get it. These speakers are no different than any speaker EVER made ! these subs are no exception, they have compromise's and limitations. If it weren't for the servo portion of these amps, they would be NOTHING special. I can honestly say I have never heard as much noise from any design in my life regarding A/B amp design, but in Brian's defense they are made to be burred in a sealed dampened enclosure. These amps clip on high level bass peaks "period" with an OB design. You can say whatever you want about that. I have asked the owner/designer himself regarding these amps, they are clipping. Brian has his PhD in Electrical Engineering and has explained to me as I have posted pages ago, the problem is the OB design is taxing the amp clean out of any headroom it would have had in a sealed design, (this is a fact). At high levels due to the front/back wave cancelation effect (Physics) again. I can get 100Db also, but not low, without clipping. Sorry. I was going to spend all sorts of time filming and running tone burst and taking readings at different frequencies so you can all in fact SEE what the shortcomings are with this design, but I've decided we've all probably heard enough.
When can I get the amp back from you Danny ? I'm sure I have to pay of course. And I'll just say, keep up the good work Danny, you sold me ! And I like to think I make pretty good informed purchasing decisions. You have skirted, ignored and flat out disregarded any direct questions or concerns to save your limited performing product. Again they sound great, I will admit, just don't play them loud. If anyone needs me to repost the actual e-mail correspondence with Brian I can. I quoted him verbatim. As far as not have two woofers wired correctly, that is not the case. I would encourage anyone with the LED's to flip their own amps, play some load, low content and take in the light show !!! CLIPPING.
I have held this back for a long time. I received a call from one of your "supposed" friends and colleague warning me to be carful implementing these subs with the M3's. I would NEVER tell on an open forum, who that someone is, but I will say he sure knows what he's talking about. I obviously just disregarded his warning and here I have been. Anyway, live and learn I guess. Your pride in your product is just a little over the top Danny. This coming from a man that basically makes a living tearing down other engineers that would probably lose there job if they couldn't hit a price point with a design. Must be nice to put everyone on blast with what a crappy job "they" have done. Check your own eye my friend, you may have something in it yourself.
Vince
Really? Everyone here has tried to help you figure out what your problem is, and instead of acknowledging that you have something causing a problem, you still want to blame the quality and performance of the produce?
Helping you resolve your problem is certainly not a sales ploy, nor is helping you in any way constitute me being a salesman.
These open baffle servo subs perform exactly as advertised and that has been confirmed by hundreds of customers including many that are here trying to help you.
I also posted the exact explanation from brian regarding what the red LED lights are telling you, and it is not the amps clipping. Please try reading it again.
"The two red LED on the power amp board indicates the power rail has temporarily switch to high voltage rail: one LED for each power rail. When it is off, it means the power rail stays at half voltage rail to save power. These two are debugging LEDs to make sure when there is no signal, the power rails should be at half voltage level and when high demanding signal comes in, they can switch to full high voltage so that it has the correct max output. Older class A/B based A370 amps do not use rail switching and therefore does not have these two lights. If I have to guess, I would say the amp will begin to switch to high voltage rail when the output is about half to a third of full max output which is about 6-9db."
Your amp is working fine. I got clean output levels of over 100db plus with ease and no amp clipping. That was with low damping and 14Hz extension. They play flat to 20Hz with no issues here.
As for the servo subs working with your speakers.... :-) I have had the designer of your speakers here at our facility. We powered the X4 speakers (basically your speakers with the Beyman air motion transformer tweeter), and played them with the open baffle servo subs. The Spacial speakers with the open baffle servo subs were a killer combination, and Clayton commented as such. You can watch a video that we did together right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL91UyiAAh0&t=3s
I am glad to send your amp back at any time.
If you'd like, you can even send in the woofers and I'll check those too.
I'm glad to continue to help you, but you have to quit blaming the product for whatever problem you are having.
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dallaire1,
If you will contact me by PM, I'll discuss making an offer for your subs. It seems clear that moving on from them is your best option.
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At times, this hobby can seem frustrating -- we've all been there. Danny, along with the fellas on AC, has been exceedingly patient and accommodating in attempting to help you at every step, so that's something to be thankful for. However, badmouthing the product and denigrating Danny isn't going to resolve your issue. Take a deep breath, dude. In spite of everything you've said, we're still on your side.
I second Early B. There has been extreme patience exhibited trying to help with your specific situation that has not been duplicated anywhere else. If you expect earthquake like bass, going to take something extreme.
I will ask one last time, what SPL from the Spatial speakers alone do you measure with the NAD at 80% of max volume. With the power available from the NAD and efficiency of the Spatial's, you should be at the threshold of pain.
One last thing. Deflecting responsibility toward Danny, the Sub amp, and open baffle base is not cool. Blaming being taken in by "salesmanship" while previously claiming extensive audio hobby experience just does not wash.
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Sorry, can't help myself. Been following this thread from beginning. Mr. Hyde was finally coaxed out. Totally uncool of OP.
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You've got so much time in the build and the nice console and for you it’s just a fail, these will be forever tainted and you should just move on and sell them. Lots of other subs out there, surely you can find a pair that meet your needs.
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dallaire1,
If you will contact me by PM, I'll discuss making an offer for your subs. It seems clear that moving on from them is your best option.
Genius. I want to buy too, considering they are "broken" I'm sure we can get a bargain here.
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To the original poster, sorry I'm jumping into this so late but some info you may find useful....
I've had a couple drivers that had the red/black stickers reversed on the driver coiol side, this will cause some serious issues if ylou wire them according to the sitickers . Makee sure all the coils are lableded in the same orientation before you give up on these... I was pulkling my hair out trying to fiugre this out once and finally noticed that the one coil was labeled opposite to the rest.... needless to say, problem was solved
jay
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To the original poster, sorry I'm jumping into this so late but some info you may find useful....
I've had a couple drivers that had the red/black stickers reversed on the driver coiol side, this will cause some serious issues if ylou wire them according to the sitickers . Makee sure all the coils are lableded in the same orientation before you give up on these... I was pulkling my hair out trying to fiugre this out once and finally noticed that the one coil was labeled opposite to the rest.... needless to say, problem was solved
jay
This would make an incredible amount of sense, but it would require that he got two mismarked drivers and put one in each cabinet. I would hope that he would have noticed an output difference between the two cabinets. Still, he either has a significant flaw in his subs or he is listening at deafeningly loud levels and the subs really can't keep up.
One question that I have is he actually getting clipping distortion at his claimed 100dB or is he absolutely convinced that the power rail High Voltage activation LEDs mean that the amp is clipping even though it's really at least 6dB from doing so.
J.P.
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This would make an incredible amount of sense, but it would require that he got two mismarked drivers and put one in each cabinet. I would hope that he would have noticed an output difference between the two cabinets. Still, he either has a significant flaw in his subs or he is listening at deafeningly loud levels and the subs really can't keep up.
One question that I have is he actually getting clipping distortion at his claimed 100dB or is he absolutely convinced that the power rail High Voltage activation LEDs mean that the amp is clipping even though it's really at least 6dB from doing so.
J.P.
I can't understand prior OP comments about running NAD at 80% to get a decent listening volume. Maybe that is not really what he meant. Regardless, reading over the NAD user manual there are many setup options that increase the possibility of problems in that area. Also, recently noticed quite a difference in the quality of Bass in streamed material. Found a couple examples of streamed version Bass seriously lacking compared to CD version. Think the OP has tried a variety of known music, but sill have to wonder if there is a source quality issue. In the end, does not seem like Open Baffle Bass will meet the OP expectations.
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For a while, remained hopeful the OPs problem could be solved. Instead of thanking everyone, Danny included, that tried to help the OP decided insults were an appropriate parting gift. Good luck to the next provider of a product to the OP!
I can honestly say I have never heard as much noise from any design in my life regarding A/B amp design, but in Brian's defense they are made to be burred in a sealed dampened enclosure.
Why should Brian's noisy design be defended? Sounds like a problem that can and should be corrected.
These amps clip on high level bass peaks "period" with an OB design. You can say whatever you want about that. I have asked the owner/designer himself regarding these amps, they are clipping. Brian has his PhD in Electrical Engineering and has explained to me as I have posted pages ago, the problem is the OB design is taxing the amp clean out of any headroom it would have had in a sealed design, (this is a fact).
You previously stated Brian never called the LEDs indicators of clipping. Danny explained what Brian told him. Why do you persist claiming the amps clip?
At high levels due to the front/back wave cancelation effect (Physics) again.
Yes, if the drivers are NOT in phase.
As far as not have two woofers wired correctly, that is not the case. I would encourage anyone with the LED's to flip their own amps, play some load, low content and take in the light show !!! CLIPPING.
Please provide a quote from Brian that the LEDs indicate the amp is clipping.
I have held this back for a long time. I received a call from one of your "supposed" friends and colleague warning me to be carful implementing these subs with the M3's. I would NEVER tell on an open forum, who that someone is, but I will say he sure knows what he's talking about. I obviously just disregarded his warning and here I have been.
You received a warning, you ignored it. The results did not meet with your expectations. 100% on you, nobody else.
This coming from a man that basically makes a living tearing down other engineers that would probably lose there job if they couldn't hit a price point with a design. Must be nice to put everyone on blast with what a crappy job "they" have done. Check your own eye my friend, you may have something in it yourself.
Poor designs are correctly identified when sent in for evaluation. Improving or tweaking audio products is nothing new, as you should know having the extensive experience claimed.
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Yes I would like to thank everyone for their help regarding this matter ! I have had no ill intentions with this post. Like Early B. had said it can be frustrating for sure. I have been dealing with this problem since start up. Sorry If I'm at my wits end after dedicating over 100 hours in this build it has been a little bit of a letdown. Here is the emails from Brian and myself.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=247358)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=247360)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=247361)
Yes please Danny, if you could send the amp back, that would be great.
I am going on vacation for next week. When I get back I will hook up REW, take SPL reading at MLP and want to run the sub through its paces at the MLP. I will do tone burst starting at 15Hz and work my way up to 60Hz in 5hz increments while turning up the main volume and watching the amps at each individual frequency and notate when the amp becomes unstable. (clipping). I am told I can easily get 100Db at the MLP mine is 9 feet away, should not be a problem right ?? we will see. I wish I had the time to do this right now, but I apologize do not have the available time to dedicate on a continual basis right now.
Vince
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If anyone with the same subs and REW could run the same test to confirm that would be a proving. I am going to video it. Lots of effort, but without visual proof it's all just words.
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I am not sure why Brian would explain to me exactly what the LED lights are indicating, then tell you they indicate clipping. From the testing I did with my amp and yours I can confirm that the LED lights do not indicate clipping.
Brian is also incorrect regarding how much output a sealed woofer has verses dual OB woofers. I have measured the outputs of both and I'd say that a single sealed servo sub has the output capability that is about 2/3rds of a dual OB woofer in an H frame enclosure.
If you don't get 100db plus output levels flat to 20Hz using low damping and the 14Hz extension then something is not wired properly. You amp will also drive the woofers to those levels without clipping. It just did it in my room.
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The OP previously indicated that the Sub Amp was noisy. Question to Danny. Did the amp returned to you make any type of noise. Transformer hum? Any hiss, hum or other noise from the speakers with just the amp turned on? Would not expect a well designed amp to make any noise when powered on and with no input signal.
If Danny heard no noise from the amp when plugged into normal residential 120V, and the OP does. There is a problem. Nobody wants to have a possible problem with their electric service, but it does happen.
Previously there was a question about whether the amps were configured for Open Baffle. Ignoring markings on packaging which could be wrong, is there a physical feature of the amp that can confirm the configuration? Yes, they did work as expected for Danny. Another means of confirmation might be good to identify.
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I can say I've never heard a peep from any other class A/B amp in my house. Just these. Danny never mentioned anything with regards to 'buzz" I'm assuming that's fine at his place?
I don't have the amp back from Danny.
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The amp is configured for the OB design, at least the servo boards say OB on them.
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Danny, when you say the amps did not clip, by what means are you checking for clipping ?
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The amp is configured for the OB design, at least the servo boards say OB on them.
Good, the amps are for Open Baffle.
The copies of emails posted are too out of focus and small to read. Regardless, since you shared there must be a response from Brian about the LEDs indicating clipping. Still, that makes no sense to put a clipping indicator on the circuit side that is 99.9% of the time not visible. Makes no sense to put an LED indicating anything on the circuit side unless for technician troubleshooting. Makes not sense to have differing descriptions of the LEDs. Neither Brian or Danny have reason to be providing misleading or inaccurate information. The Litmus test would be to look at the output with an O-scope.
Regarding the amp(s) making noise, good circuit design practice should not result in noise.
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Question to Danny. Did the amp returned to you make any type of noise. Transformer hum?
His amp was dead quiet.
Any hiss, hum or other noise from the speakers with just the amp turned on?
Not at all.
Still, that makes no sense to put a clipping indicator on the circuit side that is 99.9% of the time not visible.
Correct. A clipping indictor would need to be on the outside of the amp so that the user would see warning of clipping. The LED lights on the inside of the amp do not indicate clipping.
Previously there was a question about whether the amps were configured for Open Baffle.
His amp was configured for OB use.
Danny, when you say the amps did not clip, by what means are you checking for clipping ?
The amps and woofers are matched so that the amp has enough power to drive the woofers to full output without over driving them. I have a LOT of experience with these using doubles and triples in various rooms up to 56 feet long. I was running your amp on the 14Hz extension and with low damping. I was playing output levels to above 100db peaks from my speakers and the subs. Typically if pushed too far the woofers run out of X-max before the amps run out of juice. This was not the case. The 100+ db levels were hit down low and with ease without over driving the woofers.
Please shoot me an email with your shipping information for the return shipping.
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Thought this only fair to report. I found the culprit on the AC lines, It was my Keurig coffee Maker, in another room mind you. When I got the amp back the sound doubled and had to go hunting. Almost pulled the trigger on the Emotiva 2 outlet power strip Brian had recommend me trying. What is perplexing to me is out of all the class A/B amps I've tried in this room over the years (3)I have never heard 1 of them, and the Keurig I have had for even longer so that rules that out. Anyway, very pleased the amps ARE in fact dead quite now.
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Hey, glad it all worked out. Yeah added complexity to a system can reveal gremlins like this. Ask me how I know that!
So now that they are quiet, how do they sound with your Spatials?
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Also I should point out, I was under the impression a dedicated circuit would have prevented this in my previous room as I had installed a 20amp dedicated outlet. To my dismay Brian pointed out this won't do a thing for transformer buzz and he was correct.
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I have them hooked up just yesterday. I have to get REW setup and get them dialed in again, as Danny had my amp when I put up all the acoustical treatment, so now that I have two again its time for a re-tweak. I had the one setup using REW and it sounds quick and clean, no pressurization of the room but super fast attack and decay are what you trade in for one note pressurization is the best I can explain it, Kinda like really good "headphone bass". As far as the Red lights go, I have to forget about them and hope the amp holds up for years. I do hope Danny is in fact right, I really do.
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once I get them dialed in I will post FR shots at the MLP, with spectrogram wavelets before in bare room and after treatment. HUGE difference ! Anyone that thinks the M3's are bright in anyway has not treated their room, I actually listen sometimes with the tweets boosted 1Db.
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As far as the Red lights go, I have to forget about them and hope the amp holds up for years. I do hope Danny is in fact right, I really do.
I have been using them and selling them for years with no issues. My amps flicked the internal red lights just like yours. I never see the back side of mine, but from the levels (SPL) that mine and yours were flickering I know for sure that I have had them on many times for years and at levels that would keep them on and not just flickering. You have nothing to worry about regarding the amps.
Be sure when you measure your room response to only do one side at a time and never both speakers together.
Do the left speaker. Then the left sub. Then the two of them summed.
Repeat on the right side.
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Will do Danny.
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So the problem all along was the Keurig?
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Only for the amps buzzing. I was more concerned about the red LEDs. But I think this has all come to a close as I'm going to have faith in what Brian explained to Danny with regards to what his design was "actually doing". Don't no why Brian emailed me something to the contrary but at this point it is all water under the bridge. I've spent hours dialing them in and they sound really really good. Interestingly enough I had to set a high pass filter on the mains at 100 Hertz to get them to really integrate. Never thought that would be the case with the M3 integration.
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Great to know. Very interesting to read all about the concerns and about potential fixes and solutions. I want build one or two of the gr research subs. Is getting an integrated amp, or a Home Theater AVR with base management needed just Incase to really tune in the subs and set crossover points. I am looking at the Emotiva TA1 fo stereo purposes and a Marantz Cinema 60 for Home Theater Processing and Amplification. I want to have 2 different setups one for music and one for movies etc.
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Great to know. Very interesting to read all about the concerns and about potential fixes and solutions. I want build one or two of the gr research subs. Is getting an integrated amp, or a Home Theater AVR with base management needed just Incase to really tune in the subs and set crossover points. I am looking at the Emotiva TA1 fo stereo purposes and a Marantz Cinema 60 for Home Theater Processing and Amplification. I want to have 2 different setups one for music and one for movies etc.
I would suggest minimizing the surround sound investment and focusing on the stereo system as much as you can first if you have any budget constraints. Stereo is unforgiving and needs quality, and a quality stereo can handle the mains and virtual center channels. The importance of the surround channels after that is very low.
I say that as someone who sunk a lot in 12.2 channel (13.2 system but virtual center) and get very little out of the part that is not the stereo mains.
Bass management is convenient for integration but you get better results.doing it manually. But it is.a real pain to do it manually.
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I would suggest minimizing the surround sound investment and focusing on the stereo system as much as you can first if you have any budget constraints. Stereo is unforgiving and needs quality, and a quality stereo can handle the mains and virtual center channels. The importance of the surround channels after that is very low.
I say that as someone who sunk a lot in 12.2 channel (13.2 system but virtual center) and get very little out of the part that is not the stereo mains.
Bass management is convenient for integration but you get better results.doing it manually. But it is.a real pain to do it manually.
+1
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For my home theater I have a Marantz NR1403 Dolby Digital. I have Encore X-LS for the fronts, X-CS for center, and rears are X-on wall, and a Energy Sub from the Energy 5.1 that I am upgrading from and replacing the energy speakers with the GR Research. When you say a quality stereo can handle the mains and the virtual center, do you mean just get a stereo setup? I have already built the cabinets for 5 GR Research speakers for 5.1. The only fully assembled cabinets with crossovers and drivers are the Encore X-LS I am still finishing the other 3. I was planning on using a completely separate receiver and speakers for stereo, perhaps an Emotiva Basx TA-2 or a Yamaha A-S801.
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My plan is to replace the Marantz NR1403 with 50 watts per channel with 2 channels driven with a Marantz 60, or a Denon Home audio Receivers & amplifiers Home theater receivers Denon AVR-X3800H 105 watts per channel with 2 channels driven. I am going to use 5.1 or perhaps 5.2 speakers for home theater.
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I am not sure what the efficiency of the Encore XLS speakers are. I sit about 15 feet away from my front speakers. Not sure in a "perfect world" I would send to all 5 speakers. I could instead get a processor and just use the preamp outs and use separate amps and get a less expensive Home Theater Receiver like a Marantz Cinema 70, 50 watts per channel with 2 channels driven.