AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Lab => Topic started by: jtwrace on 9 Feb 2011, 06:33 pm
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Here are some pics of my Felix that I built during 30min spurts at lunch.
Hope it meets the standards...
Thanks to Occam for the design! :thumb:
I used the following parts:
Hammond 1455 from Newark.com SKU #845C9903
Hubbell Strain Relief from Newark.com SKU #01J4481
Panel Mount Fuse Holder from Mouser.com 504-HTB-26I
Radio Shack Standoffs 276-1381
2.5A Fast Blow Fuse
1" nut for strain relief
Some pics:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42588)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42589)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42590)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42591)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42592)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42593)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42594)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42596)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42603)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42597)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42598)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42599)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42600)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42633)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42605)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42601)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42602)
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Looks great. It's is giving me inspiration!
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The best looking Felix box that I've seen so far. :thumb:
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Definitely, the best looking Felix!
May I have one, please?
:thumb:
Anand.
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Very NICE. Great work. :D
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Jtw,
Very, very nice!
A wise choice sujectively in using good quality connectors and cordage. I used to believe that with a proper conditioner, the influence of connectors and cordage would be minimal. I was sadly mistaken :cry:
Below is my long ago, crude initial attempt at a Felix in a cord [edit: its also the original Felix]
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=17560)
Note the Volex 17604 cord, elegant use of the Rat Shack bespoke ABS box with cable ties, inside and out, for cord retention.
So.... How does it 'sound'?
Regards,
Paul
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Nice job! Looks really good. :thumb:
-Jim
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Very sweet! :thumb:
How many 30 minute lunches did it take? :scratch:
Damned fine photography, too. Thanks for sharing! :thumb:
Yeah; I've got to ask, too. How does it sound?
Have fun,
Jerry
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Here are some pics of my Felix that I built during 30min spurts at lunch.
Hope it meets the standards...
Thanks to Occam for the design! :thumb:
I used the following parts:
Hammond 1455 from Newark.com SKU #845C9903
Hubbell Strain Relief from Newark.com SKU #01J4481
Panel Mount Fuse Holder from Mouser.com 504-HTB-26I
Radio Shack Standoffs 276-1381
2.5A Fast Blow Fuse
1" nut for strain relief
Some pics:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42588)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42589)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42590)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42591)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42592)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42593)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42594)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42596)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42603)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42597)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42598)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42599)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42600)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42605)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42601)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42602)
Very, very nice, Jason. You do great work! :thumb:
Dave
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That really is impressive work and meticulous attention to detail.
My big wooden Felix box is feeling so humbled it's thinking about skipping a few hertz just to pay homage to the master Felix :oops:
I've waffled about the trade off of committing to captive cordage and eliminating the extra connections vs the flexibility of different flavors of connected cords. And then there is the captive outlet box style, like a quad box. So many options ...
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Very purdy! Now all you need to do is start flippin them for $1500!
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The best looking Felix box that I've seen so far. :thumb:
Thanks! Way too kind with all the talent here on A.C.
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Definitely, the best looking Felix!
May I have one, please?
:thumb:
Anand.
Again, too nice!
Be careful for what you ask for...
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Jtw,
Very, very nice!
A wise choice sujectively in using good quality connectors and cordage. I used to believe that with a proper conditioner, the influence of connectors and cordage would be minimal. I was sadly mistaken :cry:
Paul,
Thanks again for the design. I take your compliments to heart as I'm not an E.E. and you are. I know all of us on A.C. really do appreciate having someone with your degree of electrical knowledge.
So.... How does it 'sound'?
Regards,
Paul
I have no idea. I finished it yesterday and haven't plugged it into anything but a monitor as they're cheap if it blew up. :oops:
I try it soon though. I originally built it for my DCX but will try it on my dac first I think.
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Nice job! Looks really good. :thumb:
-Jim
:thumb: Glad I can make you :) on one of my threads.
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Very sweet! :thumb:
How many 30 minute lunches did it take? :scratch:
I'd say about 2.5 hrs total
Damned fine photography, too. Thanks for sharing! :thumb:
If you say so...I was actually embarrased about the quality but got what I got with what I had at the time.
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Very, very nice, Jason. You do great work! :thumb:
Dave
Thank you sir! :thumb:
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That really is impressive work and meticulous attention to detail.
My big wooden Felix box is feeling so humbled it's thinking about skipping a few hertz just to pay homage to the master Felix :oops:
I've waffled about the trade off of committing to captive cordage and eliminating the extra connections vs the flexibility of different flavors of connected cords. And then there is the captive outlet box style, like a quad box. So many options ...
Thank you Tom. I don't think your Felix is a slouch. :nono:
I've found a power cord that is reasonably priced and I've stuck with it after my huge merry go round with power cords. Short of trying one of the Kaplan Cords there isn't anything out there that really gives me that burning desire to try.
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Very purdy! Now all you need to do is start flippin them for $1500!
Thanks! Glad you too are liking this thread. :wink:
Umm. No. First that wouldn't be right and second I'm not so sure that I could make these all day. :duh:
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Well, the nice looking Felix has an issue. I've had it plugged into the wall with no load behind me and it started having a rattling noise. I took the top off and all looks fine but it's a strange noise like it's the choke. ??? Still has power at the IEC though.
Any ideas?
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Well, the nice looking Felix has an issue. I've had it plugged into the wall with no load behind me and it started having a rattling noise. I took the top off and all looks fine but it's a strange noise like it's the choke. ??? Still has power at the IEC though.
Any ideas?
Any DC on the incoming lines?
Dave
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Any DC on the incoming lines?
Dave
About .5V It was fine then it started making this noise. :scratch:
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I had one buzzing in my 4-box. I replaced that choke with another of the same shipment, now no problems. I suspect they aren't impregnated/sealed very well.
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I had one buzzing in my 4-box. I replaced that choke with another of the same shipment, now no problems. I suspect they aren't impregnated/sealed very well.
Yeah, things will start to rattle a bit with DC if they arent well potted. On small inductors like those I have found that saturating them with a thin or medium viscosity CA adhesive works well to settle them down.
Dave
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Thanks for that Tom. I got home and replaced the choke and it's still making noise. Is it possible that I got two that are bad? I called Coilcraft and the QC director is going to call me back as they want the units back. Good for them I still have the shipping box which has the Lot # on it.
Do caps make noise if they're failing? Short of buying some more chokes I don't have a clue. :duh:
and just because we all love pics...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42650)
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Sounds like a small amount of DC on the line, usually less than a diode drop worth.
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Sounds like a small amount of DC on the line, usually less than a diode drop worth.
:cry:
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Do caps make noise if they're failing?
Sometimes they make noise if they are not failing. I've had brand new X2 caps buzz like you wouldn't believe.
I had a problem with all sorts of things around our house buzzing a few months ago. Turned out to be a failing power supply in an older TV. Once it was unplugged lots of things quieted right back down.
See if there are any large heating appliances on while you have the Felix plugged in, sometimes those can cause CMC's to make noise.
BTW, it looks great. :)
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Sometimes they make noise if they are not failing. I've had brand new X2 caps buzz like you wouldn't believe.
I had a problem with all sorts of things around our house buzzing a few months ago. Turned out to be a failing power supply in an older TV. Once it was unplugged lots of things quieted right back down.
See if there are any large heating appliances on while you have the Felix plugged in, sometimes those can cause CMC's to make noise.
BTW, it looks great. :)
Oh goody. I love a wild goose chase. :duh:
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Don't feel bad. Mine is doing the same thing.
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Don't feel bad. Mine is doing the same thing.
Seriously?
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Just implement a DC blocker before the Felix, as shown in the original Felix thread...here, midway down the page... http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=25757.200 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=25757.200)
Actual pictures of the build (by Gordy) are on the previous page.
Google "DC Blocker" for more info on the circuit.
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Seriously. I have a dedicate line. Guess I need a DC
blocker.
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Seriously. I have a dedicate line. Guess I need a DC
blocker.
I guess I do too. :(
How much DC do you have? I have .5V
I think I'm going to setup a couple of DMM's in my house and leave them on and see if it changes during the day.
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Just implement a DC blocker before the Felix, as shown in the original Felix thread...here, midway down the page... http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=25757.200 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=25757.200)
Actual pictures of the build (by Gordy) are on the previous page.
Google "DC Blocker" for more info on the circuit.
How about some pics and a parts build list?
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Its just a bridge and two 3300uf 35V caps. Are they both just attached to opposite corners of the bridge?
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I just got off the phone with the head of Q.C. at Coilcraft. My first P3717-AL is going back for some testing. They will do a basic electrical test then if needed do some destructive testing. I will report what they tell me.
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I just got off the phone with the head of Q.C. at Coilcraft. My first P3717-AL is going back for some testing. They will do a basic electrical test then if needed do some destructive testing. I will report what they tell me.
:thumb:
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I just got off the phone with the head of Q.C. at Coilcraft. My first P3717-AL is going back for some testing. They will do a basic electrical test then if needed do some destructive testing. I will report what they tell me.
Are there other options besides the Coilcraft?
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Yes, the JW Miller 8100 series CMCs. The group buy board has holes to accomodate these coils (up to the 8118) as well as the Coilcrafts.
http://www.bourns.com/data/global/pdfs/8100_series.pdf
available from Newark and Digikey
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The Coilcrafts are in my dac and buzz a tiny bit. Only if I put my ear to the enclosure, or else, no issues. The JW Miller's in my amp don't buzz at all.
FWIW,
Anand.
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Thanks for the parts list jt, it's inspired me to take a similar but cheaper approach using monoprice extension cords and radio shack project boxes. Much easier than my original plan to build a single large enclosure with lots of duplexes... the strain relief connector can be found pretty cheap on amazon as well in 10-packs...
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I spoke with Coilcraft today about my noisey choke. They're working on it....I will pass the news when they send me the test report.
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Strange, I have never had that 'noise' problem.
Or maybe my ears are not resolving enuff to hear any buzzing.
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Strange, I have never had that 'noise' problem.
Or maybe my ears are not resolving enuff to hear any buzzing.
The buzzing isn't through the audio system...it's just a mechanical noise with no load needed on the Felix.
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The buzzing isn't through the audio system...it's just a mechanical noise with no load needed on the Felix.
:lol: Yes, my comprehension scanner caught that, hence my use of the word "ears" en lieu de "system".
It was all tongue in cheek anyway...I forgot to spell out the emotion with the appropriate smiley. :jester:
:thumb:
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Here is the Q.C. report from Coilcraft. Occam what are your thoughts since this is your world?
Quality Analysis Report QAR No. : CO-XXXXXX
To: XXXXX Date Revised: 25 February 2011
Email: XXXXXXXX
Customer : XXXXX Part No.: P3717-AL Qty: 1
PO : XXXXX Order No : XXXXXX Lot Code: 08XXXXXXXXX
1. TEAM: Assemble several people with the process/product knowledge allocated time and authority to solve the problem and implement corrective actions.
Quality Engineer
2. PROBLEM DESCRIPTION: Specify the internal/external customer problem by identifying, `What is wrong with what and describing the problem in quantifiable terms which will answer the questions: `What? Where? When? How Big? How Many? etc.
Buzzing noise coming from some P3717-AL parts when 120V applied with no load
The part as a low pass filter at 120V with x rated capacitors before and after the choke.
The audible noise was not immediate but set in after about 10 minutes of power application.
3. INTERIM CONTAINMENT ACTION: Define and implement containment actions to isolate the effects from any internal/external customer until permanent corrective action is implemented. Verify the effectiveness of the containment action.
N/A
Date Implemented: February 28, 2011
4. DEFINE ROOT CAUSE(S): Identify all possible causes(s) which could explain why the problem occurred. Isolate and verify the root causes(s) by testing each possible cause against the problem description and test data. List possible corrective actions to eliminate root causes(s).
The part was inspected under microscope and no damage was found: the bobbin is glued to the core and
the lamination spacer was glued to the bobbin. The wire was not burnt.
Also, the part was testing per drawing for Inductance, DCR, Turns Ratio and polarity.
INDUCTANCE
L 1-4=33.2 m H LSL= 18.9 Nom= 43.9 USL= 68.9 m H P
L 5-8=33.3 mH LSL= 18.9 Nom= 43.9 USL= 68.9 m H PASS
TURNS RATIO
Turns ratio based on Inductance is SQRT (L5-8/L1-4).
TR= 1.005 LSL= 0.97 USL= 1.03 PASS
POLARITY
In order to check polarity the inductance of both windings were tested when connected in series inPhase (Finish 1-4 to START 5-8) and in series in opposition (START 1-4 to START 5-8).
In phase Connect 4 (Finish 1-4) to 8 (Start 5-8):
LPhase= 130.5 mH LSL= 75.8 USL= 275.6mH PASS
In opposition:
Connect 4 (Finish 1-4) to 5 (Finish 5-8):
LOpposition= 0.943 mH LSL= 0.700 USL=1.200 mH PASS
DCR
DCR1-4=.231 Ohms DCR5-8=.237 Ohms USL= 0.300 Ohms PASS
High Pot The part was tested at 1500 Vac for 60 seconds between pins 1 an 4: PASS
The part was built per specification and no damaged component parts were found.
Based on customer description and based on the above evaluation, it is considered that the part is not defective but there is a problem with the matching of the part with the circuit.
It is possible the noise or buzzing is associated with a resonant condition in the circuit between Coilcraft part and the X Rated capacitors before and after the choke.
If L and C are in series, the impedance of (L,C) combination could drop toward zero at resonance. As a result, the AC current through choke could increase and cause buzzing. The noise could be produced by a part of the choke (wire, lamination, etc.) that resonates with the electrodynamics’ forces created by the AC component of the current through the choke.
Both inductor and capacitor could be within the limits, but a combination of L, C and frequency could lead to resonance.
The fact that the part buzzes with NO LOAD and after 10 minutes from power connection could be an explanation for resonance.
At no load, the DC bias is lower and the inductance has higher values. May be these values would meet the resonant conditions.
Since the buzzing starts after 10 minutes it is assume that heat could be involved. Inductance and Capacitance could slightly vary with the heat. This slight variation of either one or both of them could lead to resonant conditions. It is also possible that the frequency content of the current could change from NO LOAD to LOAD conditions. This could be also a factor for resonance.
The part was inspected and tested. It meets Coilcraft workmanship requirements and parameters. Since the part is not defective, the cause for buzzing could be a matching issue between the part and the circuit. The noise could be generated by a resonant condition between choke and capacitors before and after the part. More information is needed from customer. In order to increase the resistance to noise and vibrations, the part could be impregnated but this has to be discussed with Design Engineer and could lead to a more expensive custom part.
5. DEFINE PERMANENT CORRECTIVE ACTION(S): Through pre-production test programs quantitatively confirm the selected corrective actions will resolve the problem for the customer and will not cause undesirable effects. Define contingency actions, if necessary based on risk assessment.
---------N/A------------
6. IMPLEMENT PERMANENT CORRECTIVE ACTIONS: Establish a plan to implement Permanent Corrective Actions, and define ongoing controls to ensure the root cause is eliminated. Monitor the long-term effects and implement contingency actions if necessary.
---------N/A-------------
Date Implemented:
7. PREVENTION: Consider other areas that may be susceptible to this problem and apply the appropriate preventive action.
-------N/A----------
Prepared by: name withheld
Date Open February 11, 2011
Date Closed February 28, 2011
Distribution xxxxxxx
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Its pretty clear. It part is up to spec and they say its the circuit. Anywhoo like I said before mine does the exact same thing and also took time to start. Maybe I will insulate the box or not...
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Here is the new and improved version of the Coilcraft Choke. How does it work? I still have to install it and try.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=43933)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=43934)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=43935)
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Interesting. Some of mine buzz like bees and I assumed it was a wierd resonance with the particular caps and the choke. Do tell.
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Where is the smart money? Team buss?
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Here is the new and improved version of the Coilcraft Choke.
Looks like they really lathered it up with more lacquer, it's very shiny. :lol:
I do have one that is somewhat 'loose' on the core, but it does not hum or buzz.
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Interesting. Some of mine buzz like bees and I assumed it was a wierd resonance with the particular caps and the choke. Do tell.
Magnetostriction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetostriction
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Magnetostriction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetostriction
Paul, it can be quite a thrill with very high power and it doesn't even have to be a coil.
There was a club here in Albuquerque years ago that had a huge amp rack with a bunch of the old Crown DC300 amps all on a 100A non-sequential switched service. When the disconnect was closed the conduits would slam together and make a helluva a noise. Same on turn-off. The noise always freaked out the new sound guy :lol:
Dave
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Paul, it can be quite a thrill with very high power and it doesn't even have to be a coil.
There was a club here in Albuquerque years ago that had a huge amp rack with a bunch of the old Crown DC300 amps all on a 100A non-sequential switched service. When the disconnect was closed the conduits would slam together and make a helluva a noise. Same on turn-off. The noise always freaked out the new sound guy :lol:
Dave
Dave,
Dang, it took me some time to figure how that could actually happen. Cool!
Back our youth (40+ years ago :wink:) we'd just take that cmc to the transformer winder in most cities, and have it vacuum varnish impregnated. Actually, until 7 years ago, there was still a winder in Brooklyn who'd do it on spec.
For those of you who don't get the concept of magnetostriction, remember those spooky movie scenes where the helpless character is on a windswept street, the streetlight casting ominous shadows, and that transformer mounted on the creosoted pole is eerily humming and buzzing.
-Paul