M5 Sapphire - First Official Review-Stereotimes

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Spatial Audio

M5 Sapphire - First Official Review-Stereotimes
« on: 23 May 2020, 06:41 pm »
Interesting review by Don Shaulis who has been a Quad owner forever:

http://v2.stereotimes.com/post/spatial-audio-m5-sapphire-loudspeaker-by-don-shaulis/

Sepele


White



Clayton Shaw
Spatial Audio Lab
www.spatialaudio.us

sockpit

Re: M5 Sapphire - First Official Review-Stereotimes
« Reply #1 on: 23 May 2020, 10:15 pm »
Congrats Clayton,

Glad to hear he enjoyed them even in his larger room, too.

From a happy M5 and Z10i owner.
« Last Edit: 24 May 2020, 03:23 am by sockpit »

Randy

Re: M5 Sapphire - First Official Review-Stereotimes
« Reply #2 on: 23 May 2020, 10:35 pm »
Congrats Clayton, first full review of them I’ve seen!

From a happy M5 and Z10i owner.

Yea, but he writes about his amps way more than he does the speakers.

SnowPuppy77

  • Jr. Member
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Re: M5 Sapphire - First Official Review-Stereotimes
« Reply #3 on: 23 May 2020, 11:38 pm »
Really some major compliments in this review Clayton.  Many including me had concerns about that 15 inch woofer working cohesively with the tiny in comparison dome.  But as this review points out you did not only achieve this but it is even a strength of the design.  From my perspective driver integration of the M3S is notably better than it was with the M3TM with a compression driver concentric with the woofer.  I think it is even better than what I get with a pair of Stereophile Class A rated stand mounts I have.

Jean-Paul

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 48
Re: M5 Sapphire - First Official Review-Stereotimes
« Reply #4 on: 24 May 2020, 04:18 am »
He does mention some limits with volume with the M5s and this has been a concern of mine thinking about upgrading from my seemingly unlimited M4 Turbo S, as I live on the other side of the world and would have major problems if I blew up a tweeter. A dome tweeter with a 576 Hz crossover point and a slow roll-of beneath that? Which is why I'm more interested in the X series.

ric

  • Full Member
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Re: M5 Sapphire - First Official Review-Stereotimes
« Reply #5 on: 24 May 2020, 01:55 pm »
That's quite a compliment (the review) coming from a Quad owner. Sounds like he is keeping them, and that in and of itself is probably the best compliment any reviewer can make. Seems Spatials are starting to hit the ground running with multiple positive reviews! Good luck Clayton!

jazzman463

Re: M5 Sapphire - First Official Review-Stereotimes
« Reply #6 on: 25 May 2020, 12:17 pm »
Well deserved . They are keepers, and do reveal any changes in the system...good or bad. I have been having a ton of fun rolling the input pre tubes ( the 12 at7's ) in the Manley. I am pulling out all the old tubes. From boiling water to melting caramel . The keyword used in the review is "fun " and that they are. Clayton you bring joy to many , keep it going.

justinloving

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 34
Re: M5 Sapphire - First Official Review-Stereotimes
« Reply #7 on: 26 May 2020, 08:17 pm »
Great speaker, great review. 

Question.  The buzz from before was that the tweeter was run wide open.....no xover.  The review states there is no xover...just caps limiting the excursion.   A capacitor in series with a tweeter is a xover.  It may be lower than the xover naturally roles off.....but is still doing what a xover does,....just out of the bandwidth of the driver.  So, there is a large cap in series with the tweeter limiting excursion?  If so, then bi-wiring the tweeter directly would definitely provide more information to the listener (removal of a cap, two wires, and two connectors)....but would not be protected at all and might sound strident as all those parts are lossy.

I have been talking up these speakers but also telling everyone to bi-wire so you can get rid of all those parts not needed, therefore giving more transparent sound.  However, if there is a cap in series then by bi-wiring you are voiding the warranty and risking tweeter damage during super high volume listening...and risking damage if a DC spike or squeal happens.  If there is a cap in series then it would be a good idea for anyone wanting to bi-wire to know the value of the cap in series (maybe 100uf?) so you could stick the cap into the tweeter and then your speaker wire could be soldered to it.  By choosing the cap and bypass caps and speaker wire you will no doubt get a different and possibly better sound sound.  So, what is the value of the cap in series?

I’d be curious to know how many people actually care about any of this given the significant downsides. I’d just go DIY if I felt the need to make such changes to a pre-built speaker.

Spatial Audio

Re: M5 Sapphire - First Official Review-Stereotimes
« Reply #8 on: 26 May 2020, 08:28 pm »
Ric,

A crossover network splits the spectrum into multiple sub-spectrum ranges in such a way as to blend the drivers together. My design does not work like that. The M100 mid/tweeter is not rolled off - its response is the same whether the excursion limiter is in or out of the circuit. Saying that it is an out-of-band crossover is non-sense. I would still like to know when your new speaker design is coming out on the market.

Justin makes a good point also - Ric should go the DIY route, such as GR Research, so he can play around with the design.

Clayton

Spatial Audio

Re: M5 Sapphire - First Official Review-Stereotimes
« Reply #9 on: 27 May 2020, 02:04 am »
When the M Sapphire thread was first posted, we had not yet added the cap. We had tested it running direct for around 8 months, so the initial information was correct. When we did add the cap for extra protection, I should have posted the change to avoid any confusion. The cap did not affect its frequency response or sound quality.

And yes, we do have to be secretive about our designs because we have competitors. This is not DIY land. I am here to share our product offerings and their benefits to everyone, not how we achieve the results we have obtained. For commercial companies, trade secrets and patents are usually very important to success.


dB Cooper

Re: M5 Sapphire - First Official Review-Stereotimes
« Reply #10 on: 27 May 2020, 03:14 am »
First off, let me say that I have the utmost respect for these designs, having heard X series at shows. They are so good, you can tell they are something special before you get all the way in the room- you know what I'm talking about?

When I first heard of these designs, I was wondering how a tweeter could possibly be run full range. A driver itself can only do two things with an input signal: Dissipate it as sound, or as heat (or blow up of the conditions are severe enough.)

My first 'real' speakers were Dynaco A25's. The crossover in those speakers consisted of the voice coil inductance (which rolled the woofer) and a 5uf capacitor which acted as a high pass filter to keep frequencies lower than desired out of the tweeter. Same thing here. The frequency range and therefore the excursion of the tweeter is bandwidth limited not mechanically (as stated in Spatial's descriptions) but electrically. That's a crossover. A sinple one, but it meets the definiion. Dynaco called it a crossover and so would most people, I think. Splitting hairs over terminology is counterproductive in the long run. Having heard the X series, I can say that if these sound half as good as they look, they're a winner.

Trying to hide technical details is hard. An unscrupulous competitor can find out these 'secrets' any number of ways, including buying a pair and taking them apart. Ultimately, it's not just the design but the workmanship and customer relationships that result in longevity in the market.

Dsaldivar

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Re: M5 Sapphire - First Official Review-Stereotimes
« Reply #11 on: 27 May 2020, 06:47 pm »
Hi everyone!
Regarding the tweeter frequency extension that covers midrange all the way to the high frequencies is done also by JBL on several speaker models. As an example JBL 4367 is a two way model whose tweeter covers frequencies from 700Hz and above and I haven’t read any complains from owners about loudness limitations.

Speaker Type: 2-way Floorstanding Loudspeaker
Low-frequency transducer: 15" (380mm) 2216Nd-1 Differential Drive® woofer
Mid/High Frequency Transducer: 3" (75mm) D2430K dual compr ession
Maximum Recommended Amplifier Power: 300 watts RMS
Frequency Response (-6dB): 30 Hz – 40 kHz
Sensitivity (2.83V@1m): 94dB
Nominal Impedance: 6 Ohm
Crosssover Frequencies: 700 Hz
Enclosure type: Bass-reflex via Dual Front-firing Ports
Inputs: Dual Gold-plated Five-way Binding Posts
Dimensions (HWD): 37-1/16" x 22-1/16" x 16-3/4"

Dan

Jon L

Re: M5 Sapphire - First Official Review-Stereotimes
« Reply #12 on: 30 May 2020, 04:27 am »
The compression driver is 104db naturally in the horn.  They pad it 10db to match the woofer.  The crossover between the woof and tweet is really complex. 

This is why I would never buy an expensive horn/woofer speaker like the JBL that chokes the hell out of the compression driver/horn. 

I wish I knew this years ago, but IMHO, the shortest path to superb sound quality at reasonable prices at home is to deliver quality power to a great compression driver in a proper horn without going through complex, padded-down passive crossover.  Use quality active crossover, which will benefit even the woofers.