[Austin08]

....1k for now but would be happy to invest more over time.  In a way spending 4k on speakers and driving them with a $500 amp doesnt fully make sense.  On the other hand I have always read that most of the budget should go to speakers.  So... I am confused....

And the better speakers will show the system flaws.... So matching and getting system synergy is very importance. In your case, adding good subs like SVS or Rythmik make more sense for now. $1000 for amp or preamp is not gonna cut your cake. Just my 2cts

[maxkoz]

Thanks Austin08, what is a good budget for used pre and amp? You feel like my MFW-15 doesn't cut it? Could I just add one more, or need to replace it and get 2 more?

[Rocket]

Hi,

You could do a lot worse than buy a Virtue One.3 and use them with your Song Towers.  You could then buy a cheap dac and you would be set to go.  I currently use a Virtue One.3 with my Nuforce s9's which cost several thousand dollars with good results.

http://store.virtueaudio.com/product-p/vrtu-ia-vaone.3-pbf-1.htm

Cheers Rod

[Austin08]

Maxkoz,

There are few new/used preamps in $1000 range that may worth the try like Halo P5, Old used CJ or AR preamp but I don't think you would be staying with any of them for a long time. (They are either too old or skim down design to fit budget. You may have to spend a bit more money to bring them back to life or may not gain much in term of performance compare to your Denon) Imo, if you can double your budget then there are plenty good preamps that will sure make your system sing. Back to the subwoofer question, look like your MFW15 dis not do justic for you. In that case you should take a look at Rythmik F15hp or SVS SB13. (If you are handy man then get dual 8", 15" kit from Rythmik to save some money). I have heard  or owned both subs mention above and they are real workd performer.

[benguin]

I've been running a 4311 in my HT SS8 based set up for about a year with an AVA 600r driving the mains, and an aux amp driving the rears  In that usage (7.2) the Denon is actually pretty strong, and significantly better than most of the mass market units in build quality.  It has taken me quite a while to get things dialed in, and I'm still working out the specifics on acoustic treatment.  Sound with a good recording in two channel is excellent (for the money).  The separate amp is a big step up in performance.

That said, I have run the same speakers with my trusty dedicated two channel pre-amp, and for pure two channel listening it wins.  When I hook in my active crossover and use the sub, even better.  At some point I'll pick up a pre with HT bypass which should give me abilities for both multi and two channel relatively easily.   The built in features on the more recent HT units shouldn't be discounted for that use.

My suggestion is build out based on budget and your own listening preferences.  You can always add on/swap out as time and funds permit (I'm having Jim build another sub to clear out some nulls in the room).

-- Ben

[mojave]

I have never owned a receiver where you could use its amps with a different pre .

Any receiver with HDMI input can use its amps with a different pre. For example you can use the Oppo BDP-105 as the pre for decoding, levels, distance settings, etc. with the amp section of just about any receiver. Many also do this with their HTPC to a receiver. The pre just needs HDMI output.

[srb]

Any receiver with HDMI input can use its amps with a different pre. For example you can use the Oppo BDP-105 as the pre for decoding, levels, distance settings, etc. with the amp section of just about any receiver. Many also do this with their HTPC to a receiver. The pre just needs HDMI output.

In that scenario you're using the Blu-ray player or computer as a processor, decoder or DAC instead of the receiver, but you're still sending the signal through the receiver's analog preamplifier gain stage and volume control and not bypassing it as you would if it had actual power amplifier inputs.

If the preamplifier section of the receiver is of less quality or purity than the other components, the final sound will be affected.

maxkoz, I agree with some others that a subwoofer(s), particularly a sealed servo type intended for stereo use, may be the most direct path to better bass output and fuller sound, but if and when you address an amplification upgrade, don't count out a really nice integrated stereo amplifier with HT bypass.  There are many integrated amplifiers that can compete with preamp/amp separates (within a limit of 200W/ch or so) for $1000 to $1500 on the used market including this current offering on Audiocircle, a Musical Fidelity M6i

Steve

[maxkoz]

I played around with my system a bit, and I think I am clear that I need more midbass.  I hear plenty of the lower bass, although not as clean as it could be, but I hear plenty. Now what 

[Gzerro]

What source are you using would help, also if it is stereo or multi-channel?

Are you running with Audyssey engaged on the 4311? If so, you may want to dry the "Bypass Left/Right" setting. There are a lot of tricks to get a good calibration with Audyssey.

Also for music, make sure the "Dynamic Volume" setting is disabled. That will really mess up your bass response.

[maxkoz]

What source are you using would help, also if it is stereo or multi-channel?

Are you running with Audyssey engaged on the 4311? If so, you may want to dry the "Bypass Left/Right" setting. There are a lot of tricks to get a good calibration with Audyssey.

Also for music, make sure the "Dynamic Volume" setting is disabled. That will really mess up your bass response.

GZerro,

Thanks, that is exactly what I did and made things better and then I was able to realize what I think I am missing.  Sounds better with Audyssey on but bypassing L/R and turned off all the dynamic, dolby, etc.

Stereo, not going to try to improve multi-channel, feel like I dont need it with these speakers, specially if I can tune things right.

Any other tricks would love to learn more? 

[Gzerro]

Glad to hear that helped!

You may want to check out the AVS forums and in particular these threads:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1274153-official-denon-avr-4311ci-avr-a100-thread-no-price-talk.html

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/795421-official-audyssey-thread-faq-post-51779-a.html

It may be way more then you want, but if you have the patience there is some great information on getting those most from the 4311.

Also as far as bass/mid-bass, placement of the speakers makes a big difference. You may want to experiment with moving the speakers around again after adjusting the other settings.

Good Luck!

Tom

[benguin]

Ditto to Gzerro's comment.  Audyssey can take a lot of tweaking to get it where it actually sounds best.   Depending on the quality/compression of the specific music, I adjust accordingly.   In many cases, that means overriding it completely.

Take your time and your patience will be rewarded!
  - Ben

[maxkoz]

So I tested a couple of older speakers I have that tend to exaggerate mid bass and fullness. To my surprise they sounded much thinner than normal, now I wonder whether the problem is with my room or my avr.

Tried it in both direct mode and using processing. Processing now sounds much better after learning how to set things up. (Surprisingly large improvement). Also installed some 703 panels at first reflection.

Any thoughts?  Any way to test a reasonable amp? Anyone here in San Antonio 

Thanks,

Max

[NickC]

[

Any thoughts?  Any way to test a reasonable amp? Anyone here in San Antonio 

Thanks,

Max

I am in San Antonio. Jim built me some sweet SCSTs. Really good with my PrimaLuna.

Nick

[maxkoz]

[

Any thoughts?  Any way to test a reasonable amp? Anyone here in San Antonio 

Thanks,

Max

I am in San Antonio. Jim built me some sweet SCSTs. Really good with my PrimaLuna.

Nick

Hi Nick, thanks for your reply, will send you a pm.

[maxkoz]

Ok, so I have been playing around more. I realize that I need better of everything, but base is not my biggest problem. Even without sub support I can hear the base coming out of chelos with clarity. Not "in your face" authority, but I can hear it.

I played Jim's demo disc in my car, and noticed the difference in clarity even at higher volumes than in my room.  This leads me to believe that an amp might be my best bet to get more of the clarity that I am looking for. The denon 4311 gives me plenty of watts, but probably not the resolution right?

Thanks for your help!

Max

[billmcc]

I have the 4311 which I use as a preamp with a Boston Acoustics A7200 amp. The A7200 is a clone of the Sherwood A-965 which is an excellent amp for the money IMO. I also have a Parasound 2100 preamp that has HT Bypass. I listen to two channel music with the 2100 and multichannel music with the 4311. I have a pair of Wyred 4 Sound MX-500 mono-block amps coming this week. I'm really looking forward to how those will sound compared to the A7200. The MX-500s will be used for the R front and L front speakers and have more than double the power of the A7200 .

http://www.bostonacoustics.com/CA/Product/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?IsDisc=1&Pid=A7200(BostonAcoustics)
http://www.audioreview.com/cat/amplification/amplifiers/sherwood-newcastle/a-965/prd_334332_1583crx.aspx
https://www.parasound.com/nc/2100.php
https://wyred4sound.com/products/mono/sx-series

Bill

[maxkoz]

I have the 4311 which I use as a preamp with a Boston Acoustics A7200 amp. The A7200 is a clone of the Sherwood A-965 which is an excellent amp for the money IMO. I also have a Parasound 2100 preamp that has HT Bypass. I listen to two channel music with the 2100 and multichannel music with the 4311. I have a pair of Wyred 4 Sound MX-500 mono-block amps coming this week. I'm really looking forward to how those will sound compared to the A7200. The MX-500s will be used for the R front and L front speakers and have more than double the power of the A7200 .

http://www.bostonacoustics.com/CA/Product/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?IsDisc=1&Pid=A7200(BostonAcoustics)
http://www.audioreview.com/cat/amplification/amplifiers/sherwood-newcastle/a-965/prd_334332_1583crx.aspx
https://www.parasound.com/nc/2100.php
https://wyred4sound.com/products/mono/sx-series

Bill

Sounds awesome bill, with the 4311ci amps, did you feel like you where missing detail and clarity?  When you pair it up with one of your amps, what can you immediately notice? What type of music do you listen to!

Thanks

[billmcc]

Sounds awesome bill, with the 4311ci amps, did you feel like you where missing detail and clarity?  When you pair it up with one of your amps, what can you immediately notice? What type of music do you listen to!

Thanks

To be honest I've never used the amps in the 4311 for other than the front heights and surround back speakers. I had the A7200 with a few Onkyo prepros so the 4311 has been used mostly as a prepro. The other advantage of the external amp is the ability to use the 2100's HT Bypass feature. I listen to a mix of classic rock, jazz, blues and some classical. But for the most part I listen to jazz.

Bill

[maxkoz]

Quick question, is it possible that I am cancelling out the base based on where the speakers are located?  About 18 inches from back wall and left speaker front side about 10-12 inches from side wall.

Room is 20 x 20 but right speaker is about 10 feet from wall.  Sitting about 12 ft from front wall. Illustration below.

Thanks

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