AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Danny Richie on 20 May 2014, 09:55 pm
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I have been experimenting with these new LGK drivers. I have four of them in a series/parallel configuration on an open baffle with a Neo 3 pdr.
Making all of this work is very tricky. The Neo 3 becomes a completely different tweeter in an open baffle. It is one of the most transparent, and highly detailed, yet one of the most relaxed tweeters I have ever heard. However, making it work in an open baffle is very tricky. It really has to have a 3/4" deep wave guide. Side panels and any effect to the back wave also effects the front sides output. Several tests involving different types of wave guides and mounting were disastrous. But as tested right now this design gives the tweeter a beautiful response and lifts the lower range enough to hit a 97db average.
Another cool thing about the 3/4" thick wave guide is that it is cut right into the baffle that the LGK's are mounted in. This time aligns it to the voice coils of the LGK's. This is very important for open baffle designs as they stay aligned in both directions (front to back).
Running the LGK's in an open baffle is pretty tricky too. A wide baffle is the enemy. It causes a lot of surface reflections that really hurts the imaging. However the woofers need a wide baffle to separate the front and back waves and allow them to play down lower. The trick is to run a wing down one side that is pretty deep and a very short one on the other side. And the very short one (1.25" deep) is critical to the response. But the tweeter hated the short wing. With the short wing in place there is a cavity resonance at 3kHz that causes a 3db dip. So the short wing is split to not enclose the tweeter. The split short wing worked great.
Check out the pics of this test mule.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/mmtmm1.jpg)
(http://gr-research.com/pics/mmtmm2.jpg)
(http://gr-research.com/pics/mmtmm4.jpg)
(http://gr-research.com/pics/mmtmm3.jpg)
Thank you Jon Parkhurst for the test baffle.
And check out this response curve that these things make. This is a measured response of the tweeter and the LGK's individually with no crossover on them.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/mmtmmwing.jpg)
As a side note take a look at the response of the LGK (full range) drivers. These play to above 20kHz by themselves, but check out the comb filtering effects of playing them all together. They take a nose dive above 4kHz. I know lots of guys think they can run a line of full range drivers full range like that, and then they wonder why they have no highs. They cancel each other out in the upper ranges.
Anyway...
I designed a network for them that was very simplistic. I got a really smooth response. I then played them with a trio of our 12" servo subs in an open baffle. I just happen to have some of those hanging around.
The sound quality from this little combo is one of the best sounding speakers I have ever tested. Mid-range is incredible. And from 200Hz and up just crazy good across the board. I think the only speakers I'd put ahead of it would be the Super-7's from Serenity Acoustics and the LSX open baffle line sources that I designed for Mockingbird Audio. These things are that good. And a little over 95db sensitivity. :thumb:
Now here is where I am looking for a little feedback... What to do from 200Hz and down?
I could series/parallel 16 of the LGK's into an array and let them really handle from about 200 or 250Hz down to 100Hz or so. This would make a very thin (4.5" wide at the front) tower with 8 above and 8 below the MMTMM, and all in an open baffle. That will make the lower ranges super tight and fast, and play down low enough to reach open baffle subs in separate towers.
The kit cost would really start getting up there, but what an incredible set of speakers.... :thumb:
I thought about just using our 8" servo subs under them, but I am having a tough time figuring out how to incorporate them. At a 200Hz crossover point they would have to be kept very close to the upper MMTMM. But the baffle size and shape of the MMTMM can't change. It has to be the shape that it is right now. So it is not easy to incorporate it to a wide stack of 8" woofers....
I also thought about just using 9 of the LGK's below the MMTMM, but I am not sure I can get that sensitivity up to the 95db range in those lower regions.
Interest?
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What about just making the woofers side firing? Mount them in the long wing.
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Yes.
Make the subwoofers fire out (left and right), and titled up. Best sound? Well I always prefer them aiming out. Aiming up a little seems to work really well and stop the bass from annoying the ever-loving-hell out of everything/everyone else nearby. For size you could mount drones on the opposite side of them, if they're in a box. That or aim the port the same as the sub. Whether or not you get issues that bass traps can be used for, etc, it seemed to pale to the good imaging and room cohesion of resonance that I would get with subs firing that direction. I didn't seem to lose any frequencies like with forward firing. Back firing was awful.
That's my inclination, but you're way more educated than I on this...
It'd be nice to get the LGK's down to 150hz.... I've found that works pretty good for crossover point, so long as it's stereo subwoofers. The imaging of that range seemed to remain intact. I dunno about 200hz, you tell me :thumb:
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I think the only problem with mounting the subs OB is that they cancel out going forward. Maybe mounting below the other drivers, facing forward, but oriented side by side instead of on top of each other. This would give you a wider base and make the speaker heavier toward the bottom, which is probably a good thing in an OB with lopsided rear wings. 3 of the 8" OB woofers firing forward, and acting as a base for the speaker would look pretty cool too, IMO - like a giant, upside down T.
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What about just making the woofers side firing? Mount them in the long wing.
Only if they're sealed.
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It'd be nice to get the LGK's down to 150hz.... I've found that works pretty good for crossover point, so long as it's stereo subwoofers. The imaging of that range seemed to remain intact. I dunno about 200hz, you tell me :thumb:
With a line of them in an open baffle I should be able to get them down to the 100Hz range. The short wing might have to get deeper towards the ends though. So a deeper wing on the top and bottom, only 1.25" deep around the mids and not there for the tweeter.
I'd brace it well from side to side and it would be a thin little wedge.
A line of them in an array would be the ultimate. I just wonder if it would get too expensive for most to even consider.
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Danny, can you give us a rough number on the "Line" kit cost? That sounds like it may be the ticket. :thumb:
Ebag and I have been chatting about similar build using Neo 10's and a Neo 3 in open baffle. The wing and 200-300 hz bass crossover and complicated baffle shape do pose some new "opportunities". Is it possible to use a quad of M165NQ woofers to give it some bass?
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Danny, can you give us a rough number on the "Line" kit cost? That sounds like it may be the ticket. :thumb:
Ebag and I have been chatting about similar build using Neo 10's and a Neo 3 in open baffle. The wing and 200-300 hz bass crossover and complicated baffle shape do pose some new "opportunities". Is it possible to use a quad of M165NQ woofers to give it some bass?
The only way for the Neo 10's and Neo 3 to work is to do what I did for the Super-7. The baffle design is critical to those drivers working.
The M165NQ drivers are awesome, but 4 of the 8 ohm version in a series/parallel will only reach 91db.
Cost breakdown of the arrays I proposed:
2) Neo 3 pdr's $174
40) LGK's $1,360
Crossover parts, wire, etc, estimated $300
Options for the lower end....
4) SW-12-16FR woofers (2 per side) $716
6) SW-12-16FR woofers (3 per side) $1,074
2) A370PEQ servo amps $758
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Also, when looking at cost, there is no huge box to build. One sheet of Mdf or good maple ply something and you have the enclosure. If you diy, it's time consuming, and if you shop it around you will add to your total. For as little as 2k you could have something more valued at 7 k or 8 k. There are those if us who can build it and those who have it built. To each his own, but look at what you get in value and more importantly performance. Wow the curve is flat like my belly used to be! ( Baltic only comes in 5 foot sheets )
P
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Any reason not to do 2 or 3 of the 8 inch OB servo woofers oriented horizontally instead of vertically?
Or, maybe have an 8 inch above and below the current setup and make make it a WMMTMMW setup? I don't really see a way to add the below 200hz bass without making the speaker larger.
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Baffle size has to stay the same. Maybe make a stand slash box for it to sit on or just put it on a super v bottom. ??????
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I know from previous discussions that using the 12's this way would have some issues with resonances from the side panel size, but how about using a stack of the 8's angled like the woofers in the V2? Shorter side panels shouldn't have the same resonance problems as with the larger drivers and mounting them at an angle to the front should narrow the overall front baffle width?
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8 s at a 45 would be interesting
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Yeah, just do an H-frame, but orient it horizontally instead of vertically. Use it as a stand. Or integrate it into the speaker. It might look odd, but then it's already an odd looking speaker.
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When you say baffle size has to stay the same, does that mean baffle width? Or does that mean baffle height too?
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The h frame could actually be vertical since the width is less than 8 inches. That would get the tweeter up close to ear level. It is odd looking but.....
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Width, height can change if we put in 20 of them. Danny wanted them close together. I made ones that were further apart, not so good.
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Super cool :thumb:
Hey what's that bad about sealed servo subs? I say the sealed side firing 8" servos make a lot of sense. What do you think Danny? Would that kill the magic? It could be nice way to lower the price.
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What about two designs, one the $3,300 21 driver towers with separate OB subwoofers like Danny mentioned and a second model that would consist of the 5 driver OB sections pictured sitting above an enclosure with two 8" servo subs. You could use a stand of some type to decouple the upper section from the lower one, similar to the Linkwitz LX521. Based on the above costs I would expect this smaller version to come in around $1,800. Here are a couple of pics of the LX521 showing how the OB top end is separated from the OB bottom end.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99697)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99698)
Mike
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My vote is a pair of 12" servos per side, of course I already have the servos so I am a little biased. My other thought is that we could run three eights under them in something resembling one of my previous builds:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=12941)
Instead of the 15" we could use 3 servos.
I noticed when Jon was using the 8's with the full range drivers he did not use an H frame.
Danny, how would these compare with the coax of the V1? Would the music still have the same weight from 200Hz and up?
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HAL has them. HAL?
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Jon/Danny, how tall is the baffle, 24"?? If so, you could put the baffle directly on top of an H frame at ~28", assuming the 24" baffle that would put the center of the NEO3 at 40", the same height used on the OB5.
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I meant 150hz with 4. It's easier to integrate with less aggressive crossovers from what I can tell.
Either way, this looks pretty cool. I think a non array is a little more unique at this point.
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The three 8" servo's in the open baffle sound great to me with the prototype 8" servo amps. The baffles have small wings on either side of the 3 servo drivers.
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using the MMTMM on the top of two (or three), 8 inch servo drivers oriented backwards and forwards in H frames like your Super V, or for a slightly shorter arrangement, in a V configuration like the LX521. This might keep the size and cost lower, yet provide the `fast' base you are looking for at the cost of some extension into the lowest frequencies. It also keeps the system relatively small and there is the WAF aspect to consider.
As an aside I assume there are many more potential customers looking for something special in the 1k price range than there are in the 2k+ price range, so its really a question of what sonic compromise you make and perhaps the solution is to offer multiple driver options around the MMTMM basic building block.
One could also look at the MMTMM as a desktop mount part of a 2.1 system with a single sub for a `home office', which I would guess has a potentially significant place in the market...
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Forgive me if I am misunderstanding something but from what I think you have claimed so far is you have a potential world class configuration using 5 drivers and some subs that need to reach up to 200hz. Is this correct?
Or is there a suckout below 200hz that cannot be addressed with a sub and you must provide a solution that unfortunately requires 16 additional LGKs per side? Talk about diminishing returns!!!!!
I hope the former and not the latter! Surely you can come up with something else for us tight of fist and thin of wallet???? :)
Some other thoughts I have related to kits would be is the wave guide feature of the front baffle going to be something basic diy-ers will be able to pull off with normal garage tools? Perhaps the tweeter and the wave guide can be bought as a kit and the rest of our diy baffle attached to it? Obviously providing complete front baffles or flat-packs are another solution that should be considered.
If the additional 16 LGKs are truly the ultimate solution, perhaps they could also be added to the baffle at a later date when funds are available?
I don't have much wisdom regarding the particular problem you need to solve but I find the thread very interesting and am really enjoying the proposals being offered.
Perhaps you experts could highlight the potential positives and negatives of each suggestion? Hopefully in a manner that does not discourage us wannabees from trying to participate. :?
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I decided to sit on the sidelines a little bit and see what the initial thoughts were from the regulars.
I'll hit a few of the questions now...
When you say baffle size has to stay the same, does that mean baffle width? Or does that mean baffle height too?
The front width and side panels MUST remain as shown for it to work. It could get taller vertically with little effect other than a slight increase in output in the ranges below 300Hz or so, but not much.
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How is your stock of the V2 woofers, and could they be utilized in a lower cost kit? Not everyone wants to drop an extra $1k on a servo sub option.
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What about two designs, one the $3,300 21 driver towers with separate OB subwoofers like Danny mentioned and a second model that would consist of the 5 driver OB sections pictured sitting above an enclosure with two 8" servo subs. You could use a stand of some type to decouple the upper section from the lower one, similar to the Linkwitz LX521.
Yes, a model could be offered as an array and one setting on top of a three 8" servo sub set up. It would have to be a lot more solid than the design mentioned though.
A three woofer H frame set of 8" woofers does make an almost ideal height for a stand. It will look a little funky, but it would sound awesome. I feel like I have to figure out a way for that concept to not look way too odd though.
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Danny, how would these compare with the coax of the V1? Would the music still have the same weight from 200Hz and up?
These sound much faster then the V-1 drivers and way more detailed. Vocals especially just make you take a double take. Smooth, airy, natural, and musical.
Most of that weight is going to come from the servo woofers playing up to that 200Hz range. I am playing it now with one of the sub towers of the LSX speakers and it sounds solid from top to bottom.
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Jon/Danny, how tall is the baffle, 24"?? If so, you could put the baffle directly on top of an H frame at ~28", assuming the 24" baffle that would put the center of the NEO3 at 40", the same height used on the OB5.
It is 20.25" tall. Plus a base (bottom panel) the center of the tweeter is only about 11" up. So it does work out well for setting on a H frame that is 28" or so (maybe a little less).
The 8" woofers could even go into a triple stacked into a W style frame to make it shorter.
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Good questions....
Forgive me if I am misunderstanding something but from what I think you have claimed so far is you have a potential world class configuration using 5 drivers and some subs that need to reach up to 200hz. Is this correct?
Yep.
Or is there a suckout below 200hz that cannot be addressed with a sub and you must provide a solution that unfortunately requires 16 additional LGKs per side? Talk about diminishing returns!!!!!
Our servo subs can play as high as 300Hz. And a 200Hz crossover point has been the more ideal crossover location though. So that isn't a problem.
I hope the former and not the latter! Surely you can come up with something else for us tight of fist and thin of wallet???? :)
I think so.
Some other thoughts I have related to kits would be is the wave guide feature of the front baffle going to be something basic diy-ers will be able to pull off with normal garage tools? Perhaps the tweeter and the wave guide can be bought as a kit and the rest of our diy baffle attached to it? Obviously providing complete front baffles or flat-packs are another solution that should be considered.
Already knew the baffle would have to be part of the kit. It is too tough for the average guy to make.
If the additional 16 LGKs are truly the ultimate solution, perhaps they could also be added to the baffle at a later date when funds are available?
Not likely to be modular. But if moving to a design like that then building the whole one piece baffle will much easier than figuring out a modular add on.
I don't have much wisdom regarding the particular problem you need to solve but I find the thread very interesting and am really enjoying the proposals being offered.
I thought I'd see what the feedback was before hand this time. I usually don't do that. But this center section worked out really well and I think has some flexibility to be used in several different designs.
Perhaps you experts could highlight the potential positives and negatives of each suggestion? Hopefully in a manner that does not discourage us wannabees from trying to participate. :?
:thumb:
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How is your stock of the V2 woofers, and could they be utilized in a lower cost kit? Not everyone wants to drop an extra $1k on a servo sub option.
That's actually a really good idea. I have a lot of those 12" woofers on hand. They are pretty cheap at just $75 each. The have a tiny Neo magnet that lets them be mounted at a 45 degree angle. And they can be powered with an inexpensive plate amp with a bass boost circuit.
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That's actually a really good idea. I have a lot of those 12" woofers on hand. They are pretty cheap at just $75 each. The have a tinny Neo magnet that lets them be mounted at a 45 degree angle. And they can be powered with an inexpensive plate amp with a bass boost circuit.
I remember when you made that buy, and since you can't get the coax any more, this would a good place to use "dead" inventory. And BTW, I usually resist correcting spelling/typos, but tinny has a negative connotation... you mean tiny.☺
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The spacing of the drivers is greater than what I have typically seen you use, is this spacing crucial to the design or could someone move the drivers closer together to save some height for bass solutions that may be maxing out tweeter height otherwise?
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I remember when you made that buy, and since you can't get the coax any more, this would a good place to use "dead" inventory. And BTW, I usually resist correcting spelling/typos, but tinny has a negative connotation... you mean tiny.☺
Yeah, and I am really good at typo's.
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The spacing of the drivers is greater than what I have typically seen you use, is this spacing crucial to the design or could someone move the drivers closer together to save some height for bass solutions that may be maxing out tweeter height otherwise?
Actually the spacing is pretty tight. There probably isn't a 1/4" between each of the drivers frames.
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Danny -- For those of us who have servo subs already, will there be an option to purchase only the mid/tweeter section? If not, do you have plans to design an open baffle monitor (and/or kit) using any of your new drivers?
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Danny -- For those of us who have servo subs already, will there be an option to purchase only the mid/tweeter section? If not, do you have plans to design an open baffle monitor (and/or kit) using any of your new drivers?
Another benefit would be a lower cost of entry with a natural upgrade path.
Someone could stand mount the 5 driver mid/tweeter and mate it with whatever sub they want/already have then upgrade the sub(s) as funds permit.
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Maybe there could be a baffle exchange? Or just sell your baffle to the next person? We will need to adjust XO parts due to the new drivers added. You may be able to reuse your old XO parts if you planned this ahead of time.
P
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Would not just finding the appropriate height for the tweeter and just extending the baffle and wings down to the floor to make a floorstander work? Of course that would be for those who only want the mmtmm section and not the all out line array. Then you could just make a separate H frame for 2 12 inch servos or 3 8 inch servos.
How hard is it to make the waveguides? It looks like you could just use a chamfer bit with a long enough cutting edge.
How long is the longer wing?
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I guess you could buy a full baffle set up and work your way in to filling it as your funds got bigger. You could always cover the empty holes with a nice veneer, then remove it when you expand your drivers. That would be economical and practical.
P
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Here is a thought for a very low cost version to handle 250 Hz and down. Stand mount the MMTMM. Next to it, some version of this (maybe a little shorter?):
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99728)
This is John Busch's (Manzanita Audio) $4000 Ultra Plus! loudspeaker. I heard the single woofer version (Manzanita CV) at LSAF this month and the bass was very good from these inexpensive drivers. These are the GRS15PF-8 woofers from Parts Express. 4 of them would cost you $100. http://www.parts-express.com/grs-15pf-8-15-paper-cone-foam-surround-woofer--292-415
Sensitivity with the MMTMM won't be there but an inexpensive plate amp would do the trick. Then your favorite tube amp on top.
Maybe not everyone's cup of tea (especially the wife) but excellent bang for the buck. Keep it inexpensive Danny!
gab
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The option for non-servoed subs below the MMTMM `module' is a good one; Some people will prefer it on cost and some on the basis that they want a `traditional' speaker with a `normal' cross over.
However, it since getting 6 channels of identical amps is relatively cheap these days, can you make an option available an analog line level cross over for people who might want to go active?
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The throat or wave guide was extremely difficult to do even with the help of master wood workers. Many trial and errors. A CNC machine most likely could not do it without some hands on work in the end. Even with jigs and help, there is some fine tuning that has to be done to get the end result. My guess is that the 90 percent DIY (or more) would cut it wrong and end up with a sub par result.
P
I guess you could buy a full baffle set up and work your way in to filling it as your funds got bigger. You could always cover the empty holes with a nice veneer, then remove it when you expand your drivers. That would be economical and practical.
P
I was all over this last night but now it sounds like it might be better off as a finished speaker than a kit.
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Danny: Already knew the baffle would have to be part of the kit. It is too tough for the average guy to make. (from page 2)
The baffle would be in the kit. :)
P
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Sounds like two kits are needed.
1 Monitor size like the one JP sent to Danny in the pictures.
2 full line source with subs offered as an option.
The wave guide could be provided with the tweeter as a glue in piece or "face plate". it could be made from MDF, plastic, Aluminum or whatever works. The DIY folks could then make their own baffles, glue in the tweeter plate / wave guide and get creative. :thumb:
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Danny: Already knew the baffle would have to be part of the kit. It is too tough for the average guy to make. (from page 2)
The baffle would be in the kit. :)
P
Right. I did read that. :duh:
Will there be a range of colors? :P
I'm digging this design. Doesn't look too expensive. Efficient enough I could possibly drive it with a flea-watt amp. (There's one I've been drooling over for a couple of years)
I already have one servo sub amp. Just need one more and a quad of 8's. Plus the sub cabinets... Shoot, this is adding up quick! :?
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Sounds like two kits are needed.
1 Monitor size like the one JP sent to Danny in the pictures.
2 full line source with subs offered as an option.
The wave guide could be provided with the tweeter as a glue in piece or "face plate". it could be made from MDF, plastic, Aluminum or whatever works. The DIY folks could then make their own baffles, glue in the tweeter plate / wave guide and get creative. :thumb:
Thinking out loud so it may not make sense.... I am concerned about rigidity in the baffle. If someone could set me straight I would be ok. How about the ol kenex version. What about single tweeter baffles, and single woofer modules then you glue them together, but the wings would be solid to set rigidity in speaker? The kit could include, small shipping, woofers, tweeter and 5x5 squares of what you need. ????
? If you don't glue them right, you may have to plane them? Sand them flat
? Will need some clamps.
? No need for wood working skills
?????
JP
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If you notice the picture that Danny posted, those are all individual pieces from the ones that I had success on, glued and planed...
JP
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The wave guide could be provided with the tweeter as a glue in piece or "face plate". it could be made from MDF, plastic, Aluminum or whatever works. The DIY folks could then make their own baffles, glue in the tweeter plate / wave guide and get creative. :thumb:
This would be good as i would opt to build the "monitor" version to be a floorstander to avoid building a separate stand. Plus, as with all DIY, there is the potential for screwups and I would hate to mess up one of these hard to make baffles during the process of building the speakers. It would be better to get everything right and then just drop in the tweeter and waveguide into your own DIY baffle.
If you notice the picture that Danny posted, those are all individual pieces from the ones that I had success on, glued and planed...
JP
I was wondering why the baffle was two different colors.
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Danny, I was thinking two 8" servo subs in a base that the line array would sit on. If these things sound as good as you say, then they deserve subs that will match their sound quality, rather than the $75 drivers. But, why three per speaker? Did you model two and reject because of low output? Maybe ONE 8" servo sub in a sealed enclosure?
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The throat or wave guide was extremely difficult to do even with the help of master wood workers. Many trial and errors. A CNC machine most likely could not do it without some hands on work in the end. Even with jigs and help, there is some fine tuning that has to be done to get the end result. My guess is that the 90 percent DIY (or more) would cut it wrong and end up with a sub par result.
These are looking like a great speaker guys. From everything posted, there are obviously lots of options for bass both sealed and open baffle.
Biggest issue I see is this wave guide and the cost associated with producing a baffle with it. Being so diffuicult to machine, it sounds like it will be slow going and time consuming I think coming up with somethng that can be included inthe kit ( like someone else mentined an insert or faceplate) would be important.
Are you guys going to be doing a prototype of the full LS version soon ? Anxious to read about results and see pics of that vesion
-jay
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A CNC'ed flat pack will be no big deal and not cost very much either. So no worries there.
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The wing did not pass the WAF test :sad:
I have some hard work ahead of me :duel:
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Thinking this through I am seeing the issue you are having with merging the baffle with a bass solution. It appears the long side is at an angle (100 degrees?), that in itself makes it difficult to locate on top of a square box, it may have to be built similar to what you did on the initial OB7 (frame with speaker cloth over it for the non solid side) only this time the overall shape would be a "V" from the top view. I don't recall seeing it yet, what is the actual depth of the long side? Are both the long side and the short side at an angle? What is the angle?
Thanks,
Ed
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If someone made the waveguide available for the Neo3, I would definitely buy it. I've got a pair of Neo3's I'm using on my next speaker build and I'd love to have a waveguide for them.
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I am interested in these provided the various design issues are worked out. I have a pair of H-frame dual 8 inch servo subs that right now sit under some V-2 drivers that I can re-purpose. But I also have a Super V kit that just started to build but I have not bought 12 inch servos from Danny yet. So I'm definitely on the fence. :thumb:
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Thinking this through I am seeing the issue you are having with merging the baffle with a bass solution. It appears the long side is at an angle (100 degrees?), that in itself makes it difficult to locate on top of a square box, it may have to be built similar to what you did on the initial OB7 (frame with speaker cloth over it for the non solid side) only this time the overall shape would be a "V" from the top view. I don't recall seeing it yet, what is the actual depth of the long side? Are both the long side and the short side at an angle? What is the angle?
Thanks,
Ed
The side wing with front baffle is just 12.25" long. So about the depth of an average mini-monitor. The short wing is just 2" deep counting the front baffle. Both are at a 100 degree angle from the front baffle.
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I just had a thought: What about 3D printing the baffles? Might be more expensive. Might not be.
Just thinking outside the MDF box. 8)
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Danny,
I already have two of your 12" sealed servo subwoofers so I would vote for a cheap but good solution that fills the gap between the LGK's MMTMM bottom end and the top end of the subwoofers.
Mike
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I am not sure how this will play out but Jparkhur nailed what I was originally trying to get at; Individual front baffle components. I also think it would be awesome if the 100 degree offset could be addressed in the kit. Possibly have the front baffle angled on each side so the wings can be easily glued to them.
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I just had a thought: What about 3D printing the baffles? Might be more expensive. Might not be.
Just thinking outside the MDF box. 8)
3-D printing isn't as cool as it sounds. There might be some high end machines out there that can make some things, but most of the time you're better off having injection molds done. The 3-D print is just a prototype for most projects currently.
Trust me, I think about cheaper speaker cabinet construction all the time. I have a few ideas. But it's always coming back to setup fee vs. labor fee for the types of enclosures/baffles. The easiest thing to do is skip the fine finish, and go with something a bit different. I like using plywood and leaving it exposed in a tasteful way.
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Danny:
I did a search on "neo3 waveguide" and found one unexpected response "Plasticine".
Sounds like the ideal prototyping medium to me, MDF base, form measure, re-form measure etc. etc. etc.
Tweak until you reach your ideal target, make a production stamp mold or cut out profile templates for us DIY plasticine people.
My original question/quest is completely unrelated ...
"Would a matching waveguide on the back of an OB neo3 make an audible difference?
Inquiring minds Shawn
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Well, because getting a ten foot or so extrusion of this size might be a little cost prohibitive, anybody have a waterjet and a huge brake press? :D
Danny, of the "huge pile of LGKs" designs, maybe the one that just runs the line of drivers to the floor might be best? If the LGKs were put together in a line all the way up and down, would the output radiation pattern (line source from the woofers vs. point source on the single tweeter) muck with things at all? I'm just thinking about some of the past discussions regarding Fred's budget line array projects built with similar driver layouts.
How would the 8" servos sound with a similarly angled U-frame baffle to the LGK array? Keeping the same baffle angles, even if there has to be a step in there to step down to the upper baffle width, might make it more aesthetically pleasing than a transition from a square frame to the upper baffle?
The wing did not pass the WAF test :sad:
I have some hard work ahead of me :duel:
Using the LSX as example, in person and finished nicely, the big outer wing really makes the speaker look similar to a traditional box speaker until you are almost looking directly at the short side, and the short wing should neatly hide the "uglies" of the back of the drivers until you're at a crazy viewing angle from the inside of the speaker. If you need any help in the convincing, check out some of the pics from RMAF last year; they might help. :thumb:
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I wanted to see what I might do with this design using my servo 12s. This is what I came up with, I am not in love with the look but am struggling to come up with anything better without having two speakers per channel (LGK Stack and Servo Sub Stack).
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99759)
I am thinking a grill cloth might be used over the solid side and the cutout side.
Thinking about this a little more, I came up with this which I like quite a bit better.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99760)
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If you angle the top two corners of the OB sub at 45degrees, I think it would look really good with the array on top. Would not look as square that way.
Just a thought.
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If you angle the top two corners of the OB sub at 45degrees, I think it would look really good with the array on top. Would not look as square that way.
Just a thought.
Haha, the same thought occurred to me! :lol:
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Or......instead of angles at the top you could make the top of the lower
"H" box round on top........I knew a guy that did that once..... :wink:
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Like the angled top! :thumb:
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Or......instead of angles at the top you could make the top of the lower
"H" box round on top........I knew a guy that did that once..... :wink:
Yes, that fellow is quite the craftsman. Tough to pull off but it may look better than the angles.
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I could series/parallel 16 of the LGK's into an array and let them really handle from about 200 or 250Hz down to 100Hz or so. This would make a very thin (4.5" wide at the front) tower with 8 above and 8 below the MMTMM, and all in an open baffle. That will make the lower ranges super tight and fast, and play down low enough to reach open baffle subs in separate towers.
Couldn't resist, suspense was killing me (yeah I know, my PS skills suck but gives the idea) :thumb:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99762)
-jay
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Am I missing something, or is it worth doing 4 x 165's in a ported box as a reasonably priced base?? (for bass :) ).
I am aware it would be pretty sizeable, but I'm pretty sure OB's need some space anyway?? (does OB have to be 20Hz to 20k to be effective??)
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Ebag & Captainhemo, you guys have mad skills with the computer rendering. :D
No wonder Danny puts this stuff out there. Prototypes developed while you wait!
Ebag, is that drawing based on 8's or 12's in the angle top sub section? If the scale is close, it looks very nice. I don't know how much the wing angle has to do with driver reinforcement in the lower octaves? It would be nice if it that angle could be tweaked a bit for aesthetics.
After looking at both designs, the choice has become far more difficult on which to build. I'm guessing Danny will say the tall line will sound best but the cost and floor space requirement of two OB cabinets per side will have to figure into the decision.
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With the full length line source, could a line of 8" subs be mounted in the 12" wing?
Or in another baffle behind the LGKs, like this:
(http://www.serenityacoustics.com/images/496_New_Truss_6a.jpg)
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Good morning everyone. I love seeing all the ideas flying out there and everyone thinking out loud. Seeing where you guys would like to see this go gives me some direction and ideas to hit everyone's targets.
I am going to go through some of this thread and try to hit a few of the questions.
Danny:
I did a search on "neo3 waveguide" and found one unexpected response "Plasticine".
Sounds like the ideal prototyping medium to me, MDF base, form measure, re-form measure etc. etc. etc.
Tweak until you reach your ideal target, make a production stamp mold or cut out profile templates for us DIY plasticine people.
My original question/quest is completely unrelated ...
"Would a matching waveguide on the back of an OB neo3 make an audible difference?
Inquiring minds Shawn
It took a while to get the design of the waveguide down. This speaker design does make it pretty easy though as now the waveguide can just be CNC cut into each baffle.
Adding a waveguide to the back will change the response on the front side also. The output on the back side will not be as perfect as the front side, but still very good, and in phase. No additional waveguides needed.
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These are looking like a great speaker guys. From everything posted, there are obviously lots of options for bass both sealed and open baffle.
Biggest issue I see is this wave guide and the cost associated with producing a baffle with it. Being so diffuicult to machine, it sounds like it will be slow going and time consuming I think coming up with somethng that can be included inthe kit ( like someone else mentined an insert or faceplate) would be important.
Are you guys going to be doing a prototype of the full LS version soon ? Anxious to read about results and see pics of that vesion
-jay
A CNC cut flat pack will not be that much. Ben Daniels offered CNC cut flat packs of the LGK cabinets for $80 a pair. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=120804.msg1295793#msg1295793
Yes, I will have to test each version including the full array.
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Am I missing something, or is it worth doing 4 x 165's in a ported box as a reasonably priced base?? (for bass :) ).
I am aware it would be pretty sizeable, but I'm pretty sure OB's need some space anyway?? (does OB have to be 20Hz to 20k to be effective??)
Optimal air space for four of the M-165 (8 ohm) woofers in series/parallel is about 4.4 cubic feet of air space, ported. that would be a pretty big box.
OB's on the other hand really just have a frame.
If an OB design can get down pretty low then you can fill the bottom end with typical subs. In this case these little drivers only reach to 200Hz. So something has to reach up to that range.
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Couldn't resist, suspense was killing me (yeah I know, my PS skills suck but gives the idea) :thumb:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99762)
-jay
And that looks awesome.
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With the full length line source, could a line of 8" subs be mounted in the 12" wing?
OB subs have to face forward. If you turn them at an angle than you shift the cancellation point towards you and get no bass.
Mounting them on a back panel can work but not as well as a separate sub tower.
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Here is what I am thinking guys...
1) How about I release a MMTMM kit with a CNC cut flat pack (baffle, sides, etc) and put a base underneath to allow it to be set on anything. Then just run a brace across the top from the short wing to the long wing to brace it and make the whole structure solid.
Then you guys can paint it, veneer it, or do anything you want with it to make it look however you want.
You will have to set it on some type of a woofer tower that will get the tweeter to ear level and that will play up to 200Hz. That can be just about anything and you can power the lower woofers with a cheap amp from PE. Or it can be either of our 8" or 12" servo subs. So you can go all out with it or build it on the cheap. Just remember than a 200Hz wavelength is about 5.5 feet long. So whatever you cross the MMTMM to needs to be within two to three feet of it.
My guess is that all drivers, crossover parts, CNC flat packs, etc could come in around $800, and for sure no more than $900 for everything. That is quite the bargain.
2) Secondly, I'd like to try a version with nine of the LGK drivers below the MMTMM. With the short wing getting deeper below the MMTMM section I think I can get the low end response down to between 100Hz and 150Hz crossover point. You can again cross the lower end to any sub you want and each sub (left and right) will need to be within four to five feet away max.
This would be a nice looking thin tower. The price would be in then $1,600 to $1,700 range. This will include a flat pack so keep that in mind.
In case you're wondering the nine LGK's will have about the same surface area as two 6.5" woofers. Considering that they would only play down into the 100Hz to 150Hz range then that is a lot of surface area to handle down to that range.
3) The full array as mentioned before with eight LGK's above and eight below the MMTMM. Response should get down to 100Hz or so and again you can cross them over in the lower ranges to anything.
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Ebag, is that drawing based on 8's or 12's in the angle top sub section? If the scale is close, it looks very nice. I don't know how much the wing angle has to do with driver reinforcement in the lower octaves? It would be nice if it that angle could be tweaked a bit for aesthetics.
Hi Nick! That is based on the 12" servos, everything is to scale with the exception of the NEO3 and the LGKs, I guessed at their size as 2"x3" and 4" respectively. The upper baffle is to scale at 4.5"x22".
Best,
Ed
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Oooops, I missed this one.
Danny, of the "huge pile of LGKs" designs, maybe the one that just runs the line of drivers to the floor might be best? If the LGKs were put together in a line all the way up and down, would the output radiation pattern (line source from the woofers vs. point source on the single tweeter) muck with things at all? I'm just thinking about some of the past discussions regarding Fred's budget line array projects built with similar driver layouts.
It's still a point source from top to bottom. Acoustic centers are all the same. Radiation patterns would start to change in the lower section (16 LGK's) if they played up higher. The 200Hz and down range gets pretty omni so the length is not an issue. It would be more of an issue if the rest of the speaker were a line source and the lower woofer just a point source.
How would the 8" servos sound with a similarly angled U-frame baffle to the LGK array? Keeping the same baffle angles, even if there has to be a step in there to step down to the upper baffle width, might make it more aesthetically pleasing than a transition from a square frame to the upper baffle?
That would be awesome.
Using the LSX as example, in person and finished nicely, the big outer wing really makes the speaker look similar to a traditional box speaker until you are almost looking directly at the short side, and the short wing should neatly hide the "uglies" of the back of the drivers until you're at a crazy viewing angle from the inside of the speaker. If you need any help in the convincing, check out some of the pics from RMAF last year; they might help. :thumb:
Very true. Everyone should read that if they haven't.
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Danny,
You mentioned that the LGKs and NEO3 are time aligned. Would we be better off aligning the LGK baffle with the baffle board for the subs? This would put the LGK baffle in the middle of an H frame, but then we have a reflective surface directly under the bottom LGK. What are your thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Ed
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Danny,
You mentioned that the LGKs and NEO3 are time aligned. Would we be better off aligning the LGK baffle with the baffle board for the subs? This would put the LGK baffle in the middle of an H frame, then we have a reflective surface directly under the bottom LGK. What are your thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Ed
The wavelengths at 200Hz is pretty long. A few inches of movement is hardly even a few degrees of phase rotation. And you do have a phase control on the servo amps. So that makes dialing it in real easy.
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How about a kit without the flat pack / price?
Thanks
Neil
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Here is what I am thinking guys...
1) How about I release a MMTMM kit with a CNC cut flat pack (baffle, sides, etc) and put a base underneath to allow it to be set on anything. Then just run a brace across the top from the short wing to the long wing to brace it and make the whole structure solid.
Then you guys can paint it, veneer it, or do anything you want with it to make it look however you want.
You will have to set it on some type of a woofer tower that will get the tweeter to ear level and that will play up to 200Hz. That can be just about anything and you can power the lower woofers with a cheap amp from PE. Or it can be either of our 8" or 12" servo subs. So you can go all out with it or build it on the cheap. Just remember than a 200Hz wavelength is about 5.5 feet long. So whatever you cross the MMTMM to needs to be within two to three feet of it.
My guess is that all drivers, crossover parts, CNC flat packs, etc could come in around $800, and for sure no more than $900 for everything. That is quite the bargain.
2) Secondly, I'd like to try a version with nine of the LGK drivers below the MMTMM. With the short wing getting deeper below the MMTMM section I think I can get the low end response down to between 100Hz and 150Hz crossover point. You can again cross the lower end to any sub you want and each sub (left and right) will need to be within four to five feet away max.
This would be a nice looking thin tower. The price would be in then $1,600 to $1,700 range. This will include a flat pack so keep that in mind.
In case you're wondering the nine LGK's will have about the same surface area as two 6.5" woofers. Considering that they would only play down into the 100Hz to 150Hz range then that is a lot of surface area to handle down to that range.
3) The full array as mentioned before with eight LGK's above and eight below the MMTMM. Response should get down to 100Hz or so and again you can cross them over in the lower ranges to anything.
I'll have a number 1 combo with an 8" servo sub (or two) :thumb:
Any cabinet plans available for both two and three driver versions for the 8" OB servo subs?
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How about a kit without the flat pack / price?
Thanks
Neil
Neil, the flat pack won't be that much money and it is very important that it is made just as tested. I really needs to be included.
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Danny-
I'd be in for a MMTMM kit.
That's right in my wheelhouse, and coupled with a pair of 8" woofers I think you would hard to beat. I'm a fan of the LGK driver!
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Danny,
In your option 1) MMTMM, any idea what the tweeter height will be so we could figure out how tall a sub tower or stand would need to be?
Mike
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From post#1 of this thread....
"So the short wing is split to not enclose the tweeter. The split short wing worked great."
How about a comparable opening in the big wing?
A 3" radius half moon cut out might open the neo OB effect even more. Just think'n.....
For once, on the similar note ....
Would tapering the wings narrower toward the tweeter "help" transitioning around the crossover frequency?
Send more Brains : ) ... Shawn
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Danny,
In your option 1) MMTMM, any idea what the tweeter height will be so we could figure out how tall a sub tower or stand would need to be?
Mike
Danny said the middle of the tweeter would be about 11" when a base is used.
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Now all I have to do is figure out how to build it!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99797)
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Danny said the middle of the tweeter would be about 11" when a base is used.
Thanks
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If using three of the 8" servo subs, would it be better to have all three drivers facing forward or to have the middle one facing to the rear like the three driver tower with the LSX?
Mike
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Ed, that drawing looks nice! When you see the baffle setup in person, I really think you'll be surprised in that the "vanity panel" on the inside isn't really needed to have the whole look good.
My only other point to mention is your design on the woofer section and the cylindrical frames. I can't remember right now exactly what it was, but there is something about using a cylindrical h-frame for OB that I am vaguely remembering was a not so good idea. For what it is worth, I did cylinders once with a setup of the servo subs in sealed boxes. If I'm remembering right (been a long while ago now), the result was a very narrow peak (or null; can't remember which) but that spike in the response was REALLY bad. I think it had something to do with the math relating the diameter vs. the length to determine the resonant frequency.
If I can remember where I read up on the math of this, I'll post it up later.
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From post#1 of this thread....
"So the short wing is split to not enclose the tweeter. The split short wing worked great."
How about a comparable opening in the big wing?
A 3" radius half moon cut out might open the neo OB effect even more. Just think'n.....
For once, on the similar note ....
Would tapering the wings narrower toward the tweeter "help" transitioning around the crossover frequency?
Send more Brains : ) ... Shawn
The reason for the opening in the short wing is to keep from boxing the tweeter in. If not then it creates a cavity resonance. Having a wing on just one side has no effect.
And a hole in the long wing would have an effect on the LGK's.
The short wings above and below can have a taper to and from. It will have little effect though.
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If using three of the 8" servo subs, would it be better to have all three drivers facing forward or to have the middle one facing to the rear like the three driver tower with the LSX?
Mike
Ideally an H frame will be best and flipping the center one around helps in several ways. It's a tougher sale though as people expect to see the drivers and think that it has to sound better because it looks better.
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What would the dimensions be for a three driver H frame with the center drive reversed using the servo 8's?
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Ed, that drawing looks nice! When you see the baffle setup in person, I really think you'll be surprised in that the "vanity panel" on the inside isn't really needed to have the whole look good.
My only other point to mention is your design on the woofer section and the cylindrical frames. I can't remember right now exactly what it was, but there is something about using a cylindrical h-frame for OB that I am vaguely remembering was a not so good idea. For what it is worth, I did cylinders once with a setup of the servo subs in sealed boxes. If I'm remembering right (been a long while ago now), the result was a very narrow peak (or null; can't remember which) but that spike in the response was REALLY bad. I think it had something to do with the math relating the diameter vs. the length to determine the resonant frequency.
If I can remember where I read up on the math of this, I'll post it up later.
Thanks Jonathon, now that you mention it I believe I may have read something about that as well, I suppose if the cylinder we large enough it may not be an issue. I would likely have to laminate a lot of circles to make it work anyway, lots of waste.
I initially added the "vanity panel" to give the other side something to brace to although I doubt the narrow frame would offer much support.
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Yep, the stack of circles is how mine was done. A lot of waste material for sure.
Looking at the design again, though. Maybe doing a rounded top (like the fancy V's) AND a rounded bottom could get you most of the way "there" on the look and avoid the acoustic issues?
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Danny,
Could the open baffle subs be pointed 90 degrees away from each other like with the V2s, but pushed out to the sides? Something like this?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99799)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99800)
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Danny,
Could the open baffle subs be pointed 90 degrees away from each other like with the V2s, but pushed out to the sides? Something like this?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99799)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99800)
First of all welcome to AC.
It would change the cancellation pattern but would work pretty well. It would be a little bit like a U shaped baffle where the woofers are mounted on the sides and it is open in the middle only to the back. This moves the cancellation pattern only to the back side. I have been wanting to build some stands like that for our 8" servo subs. It would basically cancel at the front wall and minimize room gain from the wall. It would make an ideal stand for a set of mini-monitors that are limited to close wall placement.
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First of all welcome to AC.
It would change the cancellation pattern but would work pretty well. It would be a little bit like a U shaped baffle where the woofers are mounted on the sides and it is open in the middle only to the back. This moves the cancellation pattern only to the back side. I have been wanting to build some stands like that for our 8" servo subs. It would basically cancel at the front wall and minimize room gain from the wall. It would make an ideal stand for a set of mini-monitors that are limited to close wall placement.
Thanks Danny.
Regarding this U shaped baffle. I'm having a little trouble visualizing this. Does that mean that the woofers would be oriented 180 degrees from each other and pointing out the sides of the speaker? And that each woofer would be in a cube that's open on the back side of the speaker?
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Thanks Danny.
Regarding this U shaped baffle. I'm having a little trouble visualizing this. Does that mean that the woofers would be oriented 180 degrees from each other and pointing out the sides of the speaker? And that each woofer would be in a cube that's open on the back side of the speaker?
Yep, that's it.
Imagine a U shape that is about 25" tall, about 7" wide, and about 10" deep. The open part faces the back wall. On the inside panel at the bottom is mounted a HX300 amp: http://www.rythmikaudio.com/compact_amplifiers.html Just above it on the opposite side is an 8" servo woofer: http://gr-research.com/sw-12-08-1.aspx Then on the inside panel near the top is the second woofer.
It will need some bracing between each woofer and amp to help hold it together.
Force cancels movement as the woofers are both using positive polarity connections. And the cancellation pattern is in the back only.
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HX300 amp
Yep, that's it.
Imagine a U shape that is about 25" tall, about 7" wide, and about 10" deep. The open part faces the back wall. On the inside panel at the bottom is mounted a HX300 amp: http://www.rythmikaudio.com/compact_amplifiers.html Just above it on the opposite side is an 8" servo woofer: http://gr-research.com/sw-12-08-1.aspx Then on the inside panel near the top is the second woofer.
It will need some bracing between each woofer and amp to help hold it together.
Force cancels movement as the woofers are both using positive polarity connections. And the cancellation pattern is in the back only.
So with a "U" frame the woofers can be mounted on the side without a null effect in the front that the "H" frame has to the sides?
Something like this?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99828)
I can't find the dimension info for the servo 8" or the HX300 amp, can you let us know what those are?
Thanks,
Ed
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You are pretty close.
The width of the whole thing only needs to be the same as the mounting depth of one woofer. So stagger the woofers.
The amp is 7.625" wide and 10.25" tall. Mounting depth is 3.5".
The woofer is 8.75" across. The through hole is 7.5". And the mounting depth is 5". And that is leaving a small air space for the vented poll piece to breath.
So it the side walls are 1" thick then the whole thing can be just 7" wide.
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You are pretty close.
The width of the whole thing only needs to be the same as the mounting depth of one woofer.
The amp is 7.625" wide and 10.25" tall. Mounting depth is 3.5".
The woofer is 8.75" across. The through hole is 7.5". And the mounting depth is 5". And that is leaving a small air space for the vented poll piece to breath.
So it the side walls are 1" thick then the whole thing can be just 7" wide.
OK, stagger the woofers, thanks.
What impact will this have on the output as compared to the "H" frame?
Are there size ratios (driver/volume) that come into play?
If I wanted to do this with 12" servos what would the dimensions need to be, whatever will fit or should it be larger?
From what you have mentioned in the past I assume the more bracing the better.
Thanks,
Ed
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OK, stagger the woofers, thanks.
What impact will this have on the output as compared to the "H" frame?
Are there size ratios (driver/volume) that come into play?
If I wanted to do this with 12" servos what would the dimensions need to be, whatever will fit or should it be larger?
From what you have mentioned in the past I assume the more bracing the better.
Thanks,
Ed
Total output may increase slightly.
The smaller air space to one side of the drivers will load them a little more. The room will be loaded differently too. You will get a little more forward output, but a null in the rear. It should be ideal for applications where space behind the speakers are limited.
You can do it with the 12" servo subs too, but to keep the height down for purposes of using it as a stand then the amp will need to be mounted externally.
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Thanks Danny, this opens up more options! :thumb:
Just to verify, the opening is in the back of the speaker facing the front wall, or is the opening at the front of the speaker facing the listening position and the back wall?
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Thanks Danny, this opens up more options! :thumb:
Just to verify, the opening is in the back of the speaker facing the front wall, or is the opening at the front of the speaker facing the listening position and the back wall?
The opening has to face the front wall not you.
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Danny,
This U frame idea looks very interesting.
This 7" x 10" x 25", 2x8" servo, semi-open baffle (open to the front wall) looks like it would make a great sub-woofer and stand for my N3S speakers that I have almost completed (which I purchased because I don't have room behind the speakers for an open baffle to work).
Am I missing something?
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Danny,
This U frame idea looks very interesting.
This 7" x 10" x 25", 2x8" servo, semi-open baffle (open to the front wall) looks like it would make a great sub-woofer and stand for my N3S speakers that I have almost completed (which I purchased because I don't have room behind the speakers for an open baffle to work).
Am I missing something?
It would work great with those.
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Here is a picture of three 8" servos with the 8" wideband driver in the OB. Gives an idea of the height below the full range driver.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99834)
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Yep, that's it.
Imagine a U shape that is about 25" tall, about 7" wide, and about 10" deep. The open part faces the back wall. On the inside panel at the bottom is mounted a HX300 amp: http://www.rythmikaudio.com/compact_amplifiers.html Just above it on the opposite side is an 8" servo woofer: http://gr-research.com/sw-12-08-1.aspx Then on the inside panel near the top is the second woofer.
It will need some bracing between each woofer and amp to help hold it together.
Force cancels movement as the woofers are both using positive polarity connections. And the cancellation pattern is in the back only.
Like this?
(http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss207/corndog642/x-cs%20upgrades/f02f41d9aba591e0751eb96f5da95ed5_zps659d9341.jpg)
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Any idea what the footprint for the base of the MMTMM section would be?
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Since the cabinet is only 10" deep, the two woofers would be aligned vertically. They are 8.75" wide. Otherwise, that looks right.
Like this?
(http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss207/corndog642/x-cs%20upgrades/f02f41d9aba591e0751eb96f5da95ed5_zps659d9341.jpg)
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You don't even have to stagger them from the top view. It could be less than 10" deep.
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(http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss207/corndog642/d22ef0bc39879ec368391a5685b9cab2_zpse02f511d.jpg)
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Yep. Nice little stand huh?
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This is with 12" servos and 1.5" walls in a "U" frame. I think I may give this one a shot. My hope is that the bass is still as great as it is with the "H" frame. Both servos are shown on one side but they will be on opposite sides. I may be able to make it a little shorter overall depending on how much overlap I can get with the servos inside the box.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99853)
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Dang, that looks good.
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Dang, that looks good.
Thanks. Not counting the base (which may change to outriggers) it is only 9.75" wide!
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I'm thinking about initially using dual non servo 8" subs for the sub towers since I already have some of the X-sub drivers and 300w (into 4 ohms) plate amps.
Can these drivers be used in an OB "H" frame or should they be in a ported box?
If in a ported box, can the port be on the top like the X-Sub or does it need to be on the bottom?
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For the U frame, does the amp need to be mounted right side up, or can it be mounted sideways? Trying to fit it in right side up, I've ended up with a box 32" tall. Mounting it sideways would reduce it about 4" or so, but since the height of the amp is longer than the depth of the box, that section would have to be made deeper. Or could the entire box be made a little deeper?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99861)
Also, does the baffle of the MMTMM need to be aligned with the front of the sub box? This makes the wing stick out quite a bit over the 7"x10" footprint. However, pushing it out and to one side - aligning the edge of the short wing with the corner of the box seems to result in a pretty good fit. Would there be any issues with this?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99862)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99863)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99864)
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For the U frame, does the amp need to be mounted right side up, or can it be mounted sideways? Trying to fit it in right side up, I've ended up with a box 32" tall. Mounting it sideways would reduce it about 4" or so, but since the height of the amp is longer than the depth of the box, that section would have to be made deeper. Or could the entire box be made a little deeper?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99861)
I think if height is an issue you could just mount the amp in a separate box.
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You can let the drivers space overlap somewhat, that will reduce the height.
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You guys are awesome. Some of those drawings look really good.
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How much power would the mmtmm section be able to handle?
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I think if height is an issue you could just mount the amp in a separate box.
You can let the drivers space overlap somewhat, that will reduce the height.
Thanks guys. Good suggestions. I'm actually okay with the height. I was more concerned with rigidity since the hole for the amp would take up most of the width of one side. But thinking about it some more, I don't think there's any reason this can't be fixed by just boxing in the amp by making the lower brace solid and adding extra panels.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99889)
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How much power would the mmtmm section be able to handle?
With the lows filtered away your ears should give way before the drivers do. I wouldn't worry about power handling.
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Personally, I think you'd be better off with a bass module / subwoofer separate from a WWWWWWWWWMMTMM module. A good servo sub can be used with whatever speaker system is place. Plus, it allows you to optimize physical placement of each component separately.
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Personally, I think you'd be better off with a bass module / subwoofer separate from a WWWWWWWWWMMTMM module. A good servo sub can be used with whatever speaker system is place. Plus, it allows you to optimize physical placement of each component separately.
Okay, I'll put you down for that model. :green:
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Danny, do you know when you will have the final price and the flatpacks will be available?
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Danny, do you know when you will have the final price and the flatpacks will be available?
I am going to get a hold of Ben and see if I can get him to cut the flat packs. He did a great job with the LGK flat packs.
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Hi Danny, I know the theme of this build is the asymetrical open baffle, but what would the same array of drivers sound like in a sealed enclosure? If feasible this might be an attractive alternative for those without the space for the open baffle and probably the LGKs would extend near 150Hz (?) or so, to make mating with a conventional sub (that most of us already have) easier/simpler.
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Hi Danny, I know the theme of this build is the asymetrical open baffle, but what would the same array of drivers sound like in a sealed enclosure? If feasible this might be an attractive alternative for those without the space for the open baffle and probably the LGKs would extend near 150Hz (?) or so, to make mating with a conventional sub (that most of us already have) easier/simpler.
It's not a bad idea and they will actually extend down to the 70Hz range in a ported enclosure.
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What would be the differences (pros/cons) between using two vs three of the 8" servo drivers in each of two sub enclosures (one for each channel) with the MMTMM module?
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What would be the differences (pros/cons) between using two vs three of the 8" servo drivers in each of two sub enclosures (one for each channel) with the MMTMM module?
Output capability will be the difference. You can also make the same open backed stand that we talked about earlier with three woofers and just mount the amp on the ground behind it.
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Is there a type of alignment where three drivers could be used and keep the overall height of the enclosure to approximately 28 inches?
It looks like an H frame would end up being about 31 or 32 inches tall. That height will work if positioned close to the mid/tweeter section but would be too tall to go under it.
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Is there a type of alignment where three drivers could be used and keep the overall height of the enclosure to approximately 28 inches?
It looks like an H frame would end up being about 31 or 32 inches tall. That height will work if positioned close to the mid/tweeter section but would be too tall to go under it.
No problem. You just overlap the frames.
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How much can you overlap the drivers and still be able to put the braces of the H between them?
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How much can you overlap the drivers and still be able to put the braces of the H between them?
If you put a full brace between them then the frame itself is only really edge to edge just like with the Super-V: http://www.gr-research.com/pdf/supervbox.pdf
If you build a U shaped stand with the drivers on the outside using two on one side and one on the other then you can overlap them a lot.
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Danny, Are you high-passing the LGK MMTMM? The reason I ask is because I have the option to high-pass the input to my amp using a .047 Sonicap Platinum which I believe results in the amp outputting ~140 HZ and up. It seems doing the high-pass at the preamp level would be preferable to doing it in the crossover. What are you thoughts?
Thanks,
Ed
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Danny, Are you high-passing the LGK MMTMM? The reason I ask is because I have the option to high-pass the input to my amp using a .047 Sonicap Platinum which I believe results in the amp outputting ~140 HZ and up. It seems doing the high-pass at the preamp level would be preferable to doing it in the crossover. What are you thoughts?
Thanks,
Ed
Yep, that is what I am doing with these. Works great too...
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Hi Danny, appears we are waiting on flatpack pricing. It occurred to me that it might be cool to get a price (for the baffle only) from the aluminati guys, they do incredible work from what I have seen and I wouldn't think a small baffle would be too expensive. Of course they would have to have a means to connect it to the rest of the speaker, this could likely be accomplished with threads for 4 bolts at the bottom of the baffle, for the wings they may be able to cut an angled groove. An anodized baffle could look cool.
Just a thought.
Best,
Ed
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Hi Danny, appears we are waiting on flatpack pricing. It occurred to me that it might be cool to get a price (for the baffle only) from the aluminati guys, they do incredible work from what I have seen and I wouldn't think a small baffle would be too expensive. Of course they would have to have a means to connect it to the rest of the speaker, this could likely be accomplished with threads for 4 bolts at the bottom of the baffle, for the wings they may be able to cut an angled groove. An anodized baffle could look cool.
Just a thought.
Best,
Ed
Working on it.
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Working on it.
Cool, thanks. It seemed like a good idea to me, however seeing the lack of response there may not be enough interest to make it worth while, a one off would probably make it a fairly expensive proposition. I guess we will find out!
Thanks again,
Ed
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Obligatory post to show interest in a turn-key MMTMM flatpak kit. :)
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Obligatory post to show interest in a turn-key MMTMM flatpak kit. :)
Right there with you!
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I think there will be a lot of interest in the MMTMM flat pack once a price range is established. I, myself an interested, but deciding on a woofer set up. For woofers on the cheap, I liked the idea of the dual V2 woofers per channel with possibly PE plate amp with bass boost at 30hz or 35hz. This would make an entry level speaker. Finances are rough this year.
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Hi All
I really like the idea of the open baffle mmtmm. Firstly because Danny said it sounds good (and his track record speaks for itself). Secondly, it should be very reasonably priced. Thirdly, I like the idea of something that is far more efficient than usual. However, the drivers are tiny and I wonder how this configuration would go in a larger room (supplemented with subs of course). The mmtmmwwwwwww might be the go, even though I would prefer a single tower of drivers per channel. Any thoughts?
Cheers
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A flat pack will be part of the kit with these.
I am going to offer the MMTMM that you can sit on top of anything. This will allow for a lot of different low end solutions at different price points.
Secondly is the MMTMM with 9 of the LGK's in a line below it. Flat packs will also be sold with the kits for that one.
Lastly will be the full array version. And again, flat pack kits will be available.
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Assuming the kit and a pair of 8" OB servos for below 200Hz, how does one drive it? I'm assuming the kit will include roll off below 200 Hz and can be directly plugged into a full range amp. Then do the servos take a (full bandwidth) pre-amp out, and set the servo amp's LPF to 200 Hz?
Sorry if this has already been addressed and I missed it.
Rick
(happy owner of a pair of LS-6 and LS-C)
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Assuming the kit and a pair of 8" OB servos for below 200Hz, how does one drive it? I'm assuming the kit will include roll off below 200 Hz and can be directly plugged into a full range amp. Then do the servos take a (full bandwidth) pre-amp out, and set the servo amp's LPF to 200 Hz?
Sorry if this has already been addressed and I missed it.
Rick
(happy owner of a pair of LS-6 and LS-C)
The MMTMM or any larger variation can easily be high passed (filtered) with an inline filter in the RCA line. Where the attenuation for each model needs to be will vary based on model and the cap value for the inline filter will vary with the input impedance of your amp.
An inexpensive Sonicap Gen.2 cap can be used: http://www.soniccraft.com/sonicap_gen_2.htm
Or Sonicap Platinum's for more serious applications: http://www.soniccraft.com/sonicap_platinum.htm
Then a full range signal can be sent to the servo amps. They will easily handle what goes to the lows.
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A flat pack will be part of the kit with these.
I am going to offer the MMTMM that you can sit on top of anything. This will allow for a lot of different low end solutions at different price points.
Secondly is the MMTMM with 9 of the LGK's in a line below it. Flat packs will also be sold with the kits for that one.
Lastly will be the full array version. And again, flat pack kits will be available.
This will be great!
Now, for the next obvious question...
What is the time frame for availability?
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This will be great!
Now, for the next obvious question...
What is the time frame for availability?
ASAP...
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Danny,
Any idea how the LGK/Neo3 MMTMM's will compare with the M165NQ/AMT OB designs you were talking about? Consider both are mated to dual driver 12" OB servo subs.
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The MMTMM or any larger variation can easily be high passed (filtered) with an inline filter in the RCA line. Where the attenuation for each model needs to be will vary based on model and the cap value for the inline filter will vary with the input impedance of your amp.
An inexpensive Sonicap Gen.2 cap can be used: http://www.soniccraft.com/sonicap_gen_2.htm
Or Sonicap Platinum's for more serious applications: http://www.soniccraft.com/sonicap_platinum.htm
Then a full range signal can be sent to the servo amps. They will easily handle what goes to the lows.
If I read you correctly, the kit will not include the high pass filter, and you are suggesting a 6 dB/oct inline R-C high pass filter between the preamp out and the amplifier input. With the R being the amp input impedance.
What is the Low pass filter slope in the servo amp, 6dB or 12 dB? I know its frequency is variable.
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Danny,
Any idea how the LGK/Neo3 MMTMM's will compare with the M165NQ/AMT OB designs you were talking about? Consider both are mated to dual driver 12" OB servo subs.
Hard to say. I still await getting the latest AMT driver.
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If I read you correctly, the kit will not include the high pass filter, and you are suggesting a 6 dB/oct inline R-C high pass filter between the preamp out and the amplifier input. With the R being the amp input impedance.
What is the Low pass filter slope in the servo amp, 6dB or 12 dB? I know its frequency is variable.
That high pass filter will not be a RC (resistor and cap) type filter. That would be a second order filter. And I can't include it as part of the kit because it is dependent on the input impedance of the amp used with them. And that can vary by a lot.
However, if you can tell me what the input impedance of your amp is then I can recommend the appropriate cap value for you.
The low pass filters on the servo amps are second order.
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That high pass filter will not be a RC (resistor and cap) type filter. That would be a second order filter. And I can't include it as part of the kit because it is dependent on the input impedance of the amp used with them. And that can vary by a lot.
However, if you can tell me what the input impedance of your amp is then I can recommend the appropriate cap value for you.
The low pass filters on the servo amps are second order.
I remain confused. The high pass filter is made from an inline cap and what other components (are they in the amp)? Isn't the input impedance of an amp is generally just a resistance? (I'm talking transistor amps, not tube amps.)
I was assuming the high pass filter was the inline cap and the (resistive) amp input impedance, thus I assumed an RC filter.
I don't know why you say that a single cap, RC is 2nd order (assuming its being driven by a voltage source). It takes 2 energy storing components (L, or C) to get a second order filter.
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Here's a picture of the inline filter Danny posted awhile back. This one is a little fancier in that it has a bypass as well as the filter.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=100482)
There is a discussion of this filter in the LGK 1.0 thread http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=124657.20 . Start with reply #21
The second order filter is in the subwoofer plate amp.
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I remain confused. The high pass filter is made from an inline cap and what other components (are they in the amp)? Isn't the input impedance of an amp is generally just a resistance? (I'm talking transistor amps, not tube amps.)
I was assuming the high pass filter was the inline cap and the (resistive) amp input impedance, thus I assumed an RC filter.
I don't know why you say that a single cap, RC is 2nd order (assuming its being driven by a voltage source). It takes 2 energy storing components (L, or C) to get a second order filter.
I am just talking about the device itself.
For instance the FMod filters are second order. http://www.parts-express.com/harrison-labs-fmod-inline-crossover-pair-70-hz-high-pass-rca--266-272
They have an inline cap and a shunt resistor.
What I am talking about is just a cap and it makes a first order roll off.
And the reason that the single cap will result in a second order roll off in this application is that the drivers have a natural first order roll off in an open baffle. So if you add a first order electrical filter to it then you get a second order acoustic roll off.
And the second order filter on the servo amp allows for a matching acoustic slope.
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Danny,
Can the high pass filter be put on the speaker level outputs of the amp instead? For all digital configurations such as integrated usb dac/amps, or receivers.
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Danny,
Can the high pass filter be put on the speaker level outputs of the amp instead? For all digital configurations such as integrated usb dac/amps, or receivers.
You can, but the cap value gets much larger, much more expensive, and doesn't sounds near as good.
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...
And the reason that the single cap will result in a second order roll off in this application is that the drivers have a natural first order roll off in an open baffle. So if you add a first order electrical filter to it then you get a second order acoustic roll off.
And the second order filter on the servo amp allows for a matching acoustic slope.
Got it. Thanks
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Danny, on a related issue, could you explain how you got a low-pass x/o frequency of 180Hz (or was it 280Hz?) for the OB woofers in the Super-V using the controls on the A370 amp? As we know, the panel reads up to only 120Hz.
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Danny, on a related issue, could you explain how you got a low-pass x/o frequency of 180Hz (or was it 280Hz?) for the OB woofers in the Super-V using the controls on the A370 amp? As we know, the panel reads up to only 120Hz.
Numerical values on the dial indicates electrical attenuation and not acoustic output. And crossover points are where drivers are 6db down in output. So to cross in the 180Hz range the dial is usually set in the 90Hz range.
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Got it, thanks.
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Numerical values on the dial indicates electrical attenuation and not acoustic output. And crossover points are where drivers are 6db down in output. So to cross in the 180Hz range the dial is usually set in the 90Hz range.
Wouldn't this be true of ANY speaker level crossover parts? Seems like a few passive parts after your preamp and before your amp(s) would beat a speaker level crossover. More expensive, sure, since you'd need 2 amps, but when did that ever stop crazy audiophiles?
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That was an excellent way to biamp my Maggy IIB's in the '80s. Passive XO between the preamp and two Hafler DH220 amps.
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Wouldn't this be true of ANY speaker level crossover parts? Seems like a few passive parts after your preamp and before your amp(s) would beat a speaker level crossover. More expensive, sure, since you'd need 2 amps, but when did that ever stop crazy audiophiles?
My question (and Danny's answer) was about the low-pass x/o in the Rythmik Servo amp, not speaker level cross-overs. With that amp powering the subwoofer driver(s), only one stereo amp (or two mono's, of course) and a high-pass cross-over of some type (active or passive line-level) is needed for the pair of loudspeakers.
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I also thought about just using 9 of the LGK's below the MMTMM, but I am not sure I can get that sensitivity up to the 95db range in those lower regions.
Danny, have you been able to determine what the sensitivity will be with the MMTMM and the 9 LGKs below?
What kind of volume can these setups (MMTMM with 9 LGKs and MMTMM) be expected to play to without strain?
Thanks,
Ed
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Danny, have you been able to determine what the sensitivity will be with the MMTMM and the 9 LGKs below?
What kind of volume can these setups (MMTMM with 9 LGKs and MMTMM) be expected to play to without strain?
Thanks,
Ed
The 9 LGK's below should hit 94db levels. But the range will be limited each way, so it may work out well. The woofers in the MMTMM will roll into them and the subs being used will roll into them on the other side. I think it will work out pretty well. It will all be in how I design the crossover and how the high pass is handled to those drivers.
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The 9 LGK's below should hit 94db levels. But the range will be limited each way, so it may work out well. The woofers in the MMTMM will roll into them and the subs being used will roll into them on the other side. I think it will work out pretty well. It will all be in how I design the crossover and how the high pass is handled to those drivers.
Thanks Danny, I believe you are referencing the sensitivity above. What kind of volume can these setups (MMTMM with 9 LGKs and MMTMM) be expected to play to without strain? My V1s hit 105dB pretty easily in my small room (not that I do that often) but they will hit concert levels and above, can we expect the MMTMM be able to do this?
Also, something you kind of hit on earlier in this thread, a 200 Hz wave is approximately 6' long if what I have read is accurate, does that mean I actually have feet to play with as opposed to inches between the bass section and the MMTMM section? The reason I ask is because I am now considering going with a separate bass stack and MMTMM tower. If I choose to do that with the MMTMM tower taking over at 200Hz, how far apart can they be?
Thanks,
Ed
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Thanks Danny, I believe you are referencing the sensitivity above. What kind of volume can these setups (MMTMM with 9 LGKs and MMTMM) be expected to play to without strain? My V1s hit 105dB pretty easily in my small room (not that I do that often) but they will hit concert levels and above, can we expect the MMTMM be able to do this?
Also, something you kind of hit on earlier in this thread, a 200 Hz wave is approximately 6' long if what I have read is accurate, does that mean I actually have feet to play with as opposed to inches between the bass section and the MMTMM section? The reason I ask is because I am now considering going with a separate bass stack and MMTMM tower. If I choose to do that with the MMTMM tower taking over at 200Hz, how far apart can they be?
Thanks,
Ed
I think you'll be able to touch those levels just fine if they are high passed with a filter.
And with a 200Hz crossover point you really have about three feet of distance to work with to avoid problems.
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Got it, thanks Danny.
If looking for the best sounding solution in conjunction with a pair of 12" servo sub what is your recommendation with regard to this solution, the MMTMM or the MMTMM with 9 LGKs below?
Best,
Ed
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Got it, thanks Danny.
If looking for the best sounding solution in conjunction with a pair of 12" servo sub what is your recommendation with regard to this solution, the MMTMM or the MMTMM with 9 LGKs below?
Best,
Ed
Using the 9 LGK's below will extend the lower end to a crossover point of around 150Hz or less. I am looking forward to it myself.
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Danny, you certainly know how to keep a would-be speaker builder in suspense :lol:. Looking forward to the flat-pack and final pricing information and availability.
In the mean time, does the bottom need to be solid on the MMTMM? I am assuming so since this is apparently the configuration in which you tested it.
What will be the optimum height for this speaker, NEO 3 at ear level, higher than ear level, any tilt required?
Thanks,
Ed
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Danny, you certainly know how to keep a would-be speaker builder in suspense :lol:. Looking forward to the flat-pack and final pricing information and availability.
In the mean time, does the bottom need to be solid on the MMTMM? I am assuming so since this is apparently the configuration in which you tested it.
What will be the optimum height for this speaker, NEO 3 at ear level, higher than ear level, any tilt required?
Thanks,
Ed
I sent the test baffle to Ben for him to look at it and quote the CNC'ed flat pack. He has done a great job with all the others so far. So I am waiting on that.
There will need to be a floor below the bottom woofer. It will be just right for mounting the crossover in there.
Optimal tweeter height is usually in the 38" range. Plus or minus a few inches is fine and the real optimal can vary depending on the seated height of the listener.
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Again, just for fun :thumb:
LGK MMTMM + 9
MMTMM
(http://gr-research.com/pics/mmtmm4.jpg)
MMTMMMMMMMMMMM
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=100888)
MMMMMMMMMMTMMMMMMMMMM
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99762)
-jay
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mmmmmmmmmmtmmmmmmmmmm
Better
-
mmmmmmmmmmtmmmmmmmmmm
Better
posted that one a few pages back :)
Will edit the above to include the MMTMM, MMTMMMMMMMMMMM, and the MMMMMMMMMMTMMMMMMMMMM
-jay
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posted that one a few pages back :)
Will edit the above to include the MMTMM, MMTMMMMMMMMMMM, and the MMMMMMMMMMTMMMMMMMMMM
-jay
Yes. I know. You ps my pic
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The 9 LGK below the MMTMM should lower the distortion on the MMTMM array. Looking forward to see the pricing for the kits and the flat packs.
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What distortion? I was under the impression the MMTMM was clean and articulate without any distortion. Especially when Danny compared it with the Super 7 and LSX when paired with 12" OB servo subs.
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The 9 LGK below the MMTMM should lower the distortion on the MMTMM array. Looking forward to see the pricing for the kits and the flat packs.
If I understand correctly the 9 LGKs below the MMTMM are actually going to be used as woofers covering ~150-200Hz where the MMTMM takes over from 200Hz and up.
From Danny:
The 9 LGK's below should hit 94db levels. But the range will be limited each way, so it may work out well. The woofers in the MMTMM will roll into them and the subs being used will roll into them on the other side. I think it will work out pretty well. It will all be in how I design the crossover and how the high pass is handled to those drivers.
Best,
Ed
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That part I understand. I was wondering what distortion hifibuff was talking about. I didn't think the MMTMM had any distortion that needed lowering. Or are we using the same word but talking about different things?
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That part I understand. I was wondering g what distortion hifibuff was talking about. I didn't honk the MMTMM had any distortion that needed lowering. Or are we using the same word but talking about different things?
I believe what hifibuff is talking about is using multiple drivers to cover the same frequencies, when you do this distortion is typically lowered because the individual drivers don't have to work as hard at a given volume, that is my rudimentary understanding anyway. In this case I "believe" the 9 LGKs are handling a different set of frequencies than the MMTMM, so it wouldn't apply here, I'm sure Danny will chime in with the facts.
Best,
Ed
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Your understanding is correct ebag4. If the additional LGK drivers are used as at to handle different frequencies as in the MMTMM, then you are correct again. This would not apply.
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Any updates Danny?
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I sent Danny a design draft this morning. Once finalized, the prototype will be made and sent along.
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Thanks Ben.
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How about the
TM
TM
TM
TM
TM
TM
TM
TM
TM
TM
TM
TM
TM
TM
TM
TM
... or maybe you could just call those a Pipedream because nobody would ever build that thing.
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Bob. Ye of little faith.
-
.
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Any progress to report?
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Any progress to report?
Yeah, Ben has completed the drawings for the CNC work and will be cutting them shortly.
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Danny, would it be possible to post a drawing or explanation as to how the bottom and side will be connecting to the baffle? The way these connect may impact someone's final design or the way they are using the flatpack.
Thanks,
Ed
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Danny, would it be possible to post a drawing or explanation as to how the bottom and side will be connecting to the baffle? The way these connect may impact someone's final design or the way they are using the flatpack.
Thanks,
Ed
I am trying to get an idea how the various pieces will fit together, here is a quick sketch to clarify:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=101763)
Thanks,
Ed
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Danny, would it be possible to post a drawing or explanation as to how the bottom and side will be connecting to the baffle? The way these connect may impact someone's final design or the way they are using the flatpack.
Thanks,
Ed
I'll get Ben to post some pics when he has time.
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Let me know if these answer the question.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=101769)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=101772)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=101773)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=101774)
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Very cool!
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Let me know if these answer the question.
Yes it does, thank you.
Best,
Ed
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Danny,
Is there a reason that the base would have to continue on at the 100 degree angle once it passes the right side short wall?
Thanks,
Ed
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Danny,
Is there a reason that the base would have to continue on at the 100 degree angle once it passes the right side short wall?
Thanks,
Ed
It leaves room for mounting the crossover. It can of coarse be trimmed back as needed.
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Maybe it needs a lip on the back edge for tube connectors. :wink:
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It appears the baffle is 3/4" and everything else is 1/2", is this correct?
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It appears the baffle is 3/4" and everything else is 1/2", is this correct?
Yep.
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Yep.
Thanks Danny.
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"It appears the baffle is 3/4" and everything else is 1/2", is this correct?"
"Yep"
Why so? Would 3/4 not make for stiffer more rigid build?
In a pair which direction does the open side face; in or out?
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"It appears the baffle is 3/4" and everything else is 1/2", is this correct?"
"Yep"
Why so? Would 3/4 not make for stiffer more rigid build?
In a pair which direction does the open side face; in or out?
There is no pressure put on the wing and no resonance issues. So 1/2" thick material is fine.
The larger wing goes to the inside. At least that is what will work best for most room. In an overly bright room it could sound better the other way.
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Just my 2 cents, considering WAF.
I think making the top an open box of the same dimensions as the bottom and adding a post to the rear corner to hold the open box up would allow someone to at least add speaker fabric to cover the space on the top and open sides of the speaker, crossover, and rear of the drivers. This would be similar to the OB-5 photo on the kit pages.
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Like this?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=101817)
Just my 2 cents, considering WAF.
I think making the top an open box of the same dimensions as the bottom and adding a post to the rear corner to hold the open box up would allow someone to at least add speaker fabric to cover the space on the top and open sides of the speaker, crossover, and rear of the drivers. This would be similar to the OB-5 photo on the kit pages.
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That's it.
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Has a design for the 8" OB stand been solidified? Is there a best design as of this point? I have been following this forever but I am unsure of this. Please forgive me if I have overlooked something. I'm a father now and I do not spend as much time on the site as I used too. Happy 4th to all!!
Paul
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Has a design for the 8" OB stand been solidified? Is there a best design as of this point? I have been following this forever but I am unsure of this. Please forgive me if I have overlooked something. I'm a father now and I do not spend as much time on the site as I used too. Happy 4th to all!!
Paul
Congratulation new father ! :thumb:
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Has a design for the 8" OB stand been solidified? Is there a best design as of this point? I have been following this forever but I am unsure of this. Please forgive me if I have overlooked something. I'm a father now and I do not spend as much time on the site as I used too. Happy 4th to all!!
Paul
They have been used on a U shaped frame and an H frame.
I have several kits that will be using them too. Just being held up right now by other stuff.
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Any updates?
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Any updates?
+1 Inquiring minds would like to know
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Hey guys. All the blame is on me for the delay. This type of design is new in a few ways for me. For one, creating the wave guide on the baffle required using a new type of cutting tool, new methods to experiment with for toolpaths, etc.
That part is solved, but I am also trying to figure out how to best get the appropriate angles on the pieces. I don't have a table saw in my shop, nor do I really have the space for one. Almost everything I do involves 90 degree cuts and angles. The cabinet design elements that I've perfected are all geared toward simpler box geometry.
For the miter angles I am using my traditional router table and various bits (this design needing just at 11.25 degrees). There is a lot of opportunity for it to not be perfect and when the angles are not dead on perfect, the joint will not work out. I have high expectations for the quality of my work that I don't want to betray.
The other problem I foresee is in the assembly. Applying clamping pressure at these angles without jigs will be a challenge. I welcome any tips if anyone can see how I could design this to go together as easily as the LGK.
Anyhow, I am still working through it. Here are some pics of the baffles.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102386)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102387)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102388)
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Ben, the baffles look great! I have considered the clamping angle issue, for myself, I will likely use brads to hold it in place along with clamps. Another thought I had was to use hot melt glue to temporarily glue a strip in place for the sides to buck up against while drying, along those same lines you could simply nail or screw a temporary strip in place, we would have to be certain not to glue the temporary piece in place with the side . Another possible solution would be to route a angled groove into the back of the baffle, however being at the edge I don't think that will work too well.
Danny, for those of us that really only need the baffle, is there any chance of releasing a kit with the baffle only. Sorry guys, not trying to leave anyone out but with my design I won't be using the big side of the kit anyway.
Best,
Ed
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Baffle only could be a reality quick quickly from my side. That part has been solved. I could send some to Danny tomorrow for him to sign off on.
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Ben, will the baffle be rounded off on the edges and backs of the driver cutouts or is what is shown as far as you will take them? No issue really, just curious.
Thanks,
Ed
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What if instead of having the sides cut off at the 100 degree angle you left a little like this (my widths aren't to scale but you get the gist):
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102392)
edit, I believe I missed your real issue with the angle....nevermind!
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Ben,
Looks really good.
Just the baffles and a set of plans would be all I need.
In addition to just the baffles you could offer the whole kit without any edges beveled. In this case consider leaving any piece that needs to be beveled an inch or so wide on the edges that need a bevel. That way there will be material to work with when cutting the bevels.
Gluing up an odd angle will probably require some type of jig. Here is a picture of one I found in Fine Woodworking magazine.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102396)
You cut a couple pieces of hardwood to the required angle. Drill at least two holes for clamps (one for each face). Then clamp the jig tight into the corner while the glue sets. You will need to put wax or something on the jig to keep the glue from sticking to it. For a wide board like the large wing you will need two of these jigs, one for each side.
If the person doing the glue up doesn't plan on rounding over the edges they can use brads to pin the pieces together as well.
Mike
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ebag4: Yes, I will use a big roundover on the back side of the
Mike: Cutting the baffle extra wide would be no problem.
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Ben,
Depending on the way the design is laid out you may not need to cut the baffle itself extra wide. If the design has the bevels cut on the wings then butted to the baffle (which is what your drawing looks like) the wings would need to be extra wide (or long depending on how you are looking at it) but the baffle would not need to be extra wide.
However, if you are planning on cutting half the angle on the baffle and half on the wing (then glue up a mitered joint) both pieces would need extra material. This would not be my preferred method. Mitered joints are a bear and I would much rather avoid them whenever possible.
I would much prefer a straight baffle with enough material on the wings to cut the full bevel on the wing then do a second straight cut on the other end of the wing for correct length. I have found that using a single cut for both setting the bevel and cutting to final length is a sure recipe for either a bad joint, a short piece or both. The two cut method (first cut the bevel on one end then straight cut the other end to length) works best for me.
Mike
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Ben,
What are the dimensions of the base?
Mike
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Ben,
What are the dimensions of the base?
Mike
Mike, have you heard something about the baffle being available?
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A couple of days ago Ben said he could send some to Danny to be sure they were OK before making them available.
Mike
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A couple of days ago Ben said he could send some to Danny to be sure they were OK before making them available.
Mike
OK, thanks Mike. I had not read if the baffles were shipped or if Danny is even willing to sell the kit with the baffle only.
Best,
Ed
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As soon as the flat pack arrives I will assemble it and set it up right away and test everything to make sure all is good.
The side wings are a very important part of the design and must be as designed in order to get the correct results. So I recommend the complete flat pack from Ben. Besides the wings and braces are small and won't cost much at all. So you really are going to save much by trying to make them yourself.
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Thanks Danny. If the wing comment was a response to my not using the wing supplied in the kit, I realize I have to have the wings, however with the speaker I am building I will need a longer one than what is supplied in the kit.
Best,
Ed
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As soon as the flat pack arrives I will assemble it and set it up right away and test everything to make sure all is good.
The side wings are a very important part of the design and must be as designed in order to get the correct results. So I recommend the complete flat pack from Ben. Besides the wings and braces are small and won't cost much at all. So you really are going to save much by trying to make them yourself.
It's not the cost that's an issue. Ben is having a lot of trouble getting the 100 degree angles cut with a router. This is a simple cut with a table saw but Ben does not have a table saw. Routers are not designed to cut bevels unless you have a bit for the specific angle you need. This is the current problem as I understand it.
One solution I mentioned earlier is to leave all the wing pieces cut square but make them enough oversized that we can cut the bevels ourselves.
I'm more than happy to buy the complete kit. Just trying to think of a solution that wouldn't require Ben buying a table saw or rebuilding his CNC router so it can pivot in the vertical plane.
Mike
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It's not the cost that's an issue. Ben is having a lot of trouble getting the 100 degree angles cut with a router. This is a simple cut with a table saw but Ben does not have a table saw. Routers are not designed to cut bevels unless you have a bit for the specific angle you need. This is the current problem as I understand it.
One solution I mentioned earlier is to leave all the wing pieces cut square but make them enough oversized that we can cut the bevels ourselves.
I'm more than happy to buy the complete kit. Just trying to think of a solution that wouldn't require Ben buying a table saw or rebuilding his CNC router so it can pivot in the vertical plane.
Mike
+1
As Mike stated, the cuts that Ben is having issues with are easily completed with a table saw. Many of us are able to cut those pieces ourselves, however I realize that there are a number of us that are wanting a complete flatpack as well.
If you choose to wait for the complete flatpack that is fine, however there are likely a number of us who would be willing to purchase the baffle and build the rest of the kit ourselves, we would only need the required dimensions.
My $.02.
Thanks,
Ed
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Oh okay. Maybe I need to get Ben a new table saw.....
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Guys,
In the meantime, here's a video of the waveguide being machined. http://youtu.be/BwR9w5GY9bc
I appreciate all the input above. A table saw is what I need, and this is a good chamber of motivation for that end. The Incra fence on my router table is great, but it doesn't absorb the shortcomings of this approach. Too many variables between material thickness, split-fence offsets, etc.
Danny and I are discussing some options on how this can roll out... The guys who just want baffle will be the easiest to serve. These are the dimensions I'm working with right now [see below], but with a table saw this could go down to a simple 100 degrees if there's a difference in performance and I'm not limited by the available chamfer bits.
If I were to sell baffles with a 90 degree edge, how much oversize would you want on the width?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102573)
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Danny and I are discussing some options on how this can roll out... The guys who just want baffle will be the easiest to serve. These are the dimensions I'm working with right now [see below], but with a table saw this could go down to a simple 100 degrees if there's a difference in performance and I'm not limited by the available chamfer bits.
There is a company in Houston that grinds carbide endmills for our shop. They can do angles. Would this work?
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There are other complications that would remain even if I was doing the profile cuts with the correctly-angled bit.
A table saw, with the blade and fence set up once for a whole sheet's worth of baffles or parts will be more efficient than anything I think.
There is a company in Houston that grinds carbide endmills for our shop. They can do angles. Would this work?
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Oh okay. Maybe I need to get Ben a new table saw.....
Well I know of a Unisaw that can probably be had for a low price.
North side of Chicago.
A friend of mine and the wife's who got it with some other machines
and has absolutely no need for it.
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I'll probably be looking for more mobility and a smaller footprint - also those are over $3K new. I'm not sure I have room on my breaker for another 220 (one for the dust collector), but maybe.
The Ridgid R4512 (https://www.ridgid.com/us/en/10-inch-cast-iron-table-saw) looks like a popular option. Older reviews talk of a problem with the blade angle changing with the height adjustment, but it seems that has been corrected.
That said, I'm only beginning to think about this.
Well I know of a Unisaw that can probably be had for a low price.
North side of Chicago.
A friend of mine and the wife's who got it with some other machines
and has absolutely no need for it.
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Guys,
In the meantime, here's a video of the waveguide being machined. http://youtu.be/BwR9w5GY9bc
I appreciate all the input above. A table saw is what I need, and this is a good chamber of motivation for that end. The Incra fence on my router table is great, but it doesn't absorb the shortcomings of this approach. Too many variables between material thickness, split-fence offsets, etc.
Danny and I are discussing some options on how this can roll out... The guys who just want baffle will be the easiest to serve. These are the dimensions I'm working with right now [see below], but with a table saw this could go down to a simple 100 degrees if there's a difference in performance and I'm not limited by the available chamfer bits.
If I were to sell baffles with a 90 degree edge, how much oversize would you want on the width?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102573)
Ben
I'd want an extra inch or so on each side
Mike
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Guys,
In the meantime, here's a video of the waveguide being machined. http://youtu.be/BwR9w5GY9bc
I appreciate all the input above. A table saw is what I need, and this is a good chamber of motivation for that end. The Incra fence on my router table is great, but it doesn't absorb the shortcomings of this approach. Too many variables between material thickness, split-fence offsets, etc.
Danny and I are discussing some options on how this can roll out... The guys who just want baffle will be the easiest to serve. These are the dimensions I'm working with right now [see below], but with a table saw this could go down to a simple 100 degrees if there's a difference in performance and I'm not limited by the available chamfer bits.
If I were to sell baffles with a 90 degree edge, how much oversize would you want on the width?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102573)
I have never tried to put a roundover on anything other than a 90 degree angle, how would that work out?
Seems to me since the baffle is only 3/4" thick and we are adding a roundover we would be better off with you cutting the baffle to size (90 degree angles) and rounding over on the CNC. There will be a little bit of the side left at 90 degrees but not much, especially if you rounded over with a 1/2" bit, like this:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102603)
This is a 4.75" wide baffle with 1/2" roundovers, sides at 100 degrees.
Best,
Ed
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I use a dado and rabbet type joint on angles with roundovers quite often.
Easy to do and clamps fine with just masking tape.
Leave the baffle edge square, put the roundover on.
Tilt the angle of the dado blade to the needed angle.
Through trial and error on a scrap piece, adjust the depth of cut just deep enough into the radius so that the joint has a nice seamless transition from radius to straight.
Then cut the inner deeper dado.
Return the saw blade angle to 90 degrees and cut the dado on the wings to fit.
The result will look just like you ran a roundover on a 90 degree edge.
And I doubt anyone with even minimal woodworking skills would have trouble assembling with just tape.
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I would agree with Ed.
Seems like that would be easier all around. Then you wouldn't have to have to have more than one baffle design.
Mike
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I use a dado and rabbet type joint on angles with roundovers quite often.
Easy to do and clamps fine with just masking tape.
Leave the baffle edge square, put the roundover on.
Tilt the angle of the dado blade to the needed angle.
Through trial and error on a scrap piece, adjust the depth of cut just deep enough into the radius so that the joint has a nice seamless transition from radius to straight.
Then cut the inner deeper dado.
Return the saw blade angle to 90 degrees and cut the dado on the wings to fit.
The result will look just like you ran a roundover on a 90 degree edge.
And I doubt anyone with even minimal woodworking skills would have trouble assembling with just tape.
Keith, thanks for the clear explanation, I can see that working.
Danny/Ben, are we making any progress? Do we have any idea when this might be available for purchase?
Thanks,
Ed
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Yes, making progress. Table saw assembled and setup over the last few evenings.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102850)
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Nice looking saw Ben. Were the 100 degree angles on the side pieces all that were left to be completed?
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Yes, making progress. Table saw assembled and setup over the last few evenings.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102850)
Nice saw. I have the contractor version that collapses and rolls around. I don't have room to set my saws up in the garage. I have to roll everything out into the driveway to do much cutting.
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Some good progress this weekend. I'm about to cut the 1/2" parts for the opposite side. I should have these out to Danny tomorrow.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102940)
The brace will obviously not go here, but this shows how it fits.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102941)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102942)
The short wings and brace will have some roundovers on them.
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Nice job, looking good Ben :thumb:
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Thanks, Ed.
I must say, having a table saw in my shop fills a deep and aged void in my soul. This model is quite nice for the money. For under $600 with tax, it's hard to beat. The stamped wings are a little funky, but I'll probably replace them with some laminated MDF or BB, and add a second router table point to the right of the blade. I use the flush trim bit on a daily basis, and often various roundovers and the occasional rabbet bit. It equates to a lot of change-outs. It will be nice to have a dedicated spot for flush trim only.
All the angled cuts in this design are the same (100°), so I only have to get it right once and lock it in.
This push shoe was the hero of the day. I was scratching my head about how to survive the thin miter rip of the short wings. I knew using the supplied stick was asking for trouble. I copied someone else's design for this...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102943)
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Ben,
Looking good.
Mike
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Ben, do the baffle sides get a round over?
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Ed,
They can to an extent. I have a 1/2" radius roundover that will go most of the way, but it stops a little short, due to the bearing riding on a non-90° edge. It transitions nicely on the front face of the baffle, but stops a little abruptly on the beveled edge. I'm sure one could smooth this out with a touch of sanding.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102956)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102957)
Ben, do the baffle sides get a round over?
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It transitions nicely on the front face of the baffle, but stops a little abruptly on the beveled edge. I'm sure one could smooth this out with a touch of sanding.
Agreed, thanks.
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Trying to figure out how I'm going to veneer these :scratch:
Mike
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Trying to figure out how I'm going to veneer these :scratch:
Mike
That wave guide is going to make veneering very tough. I don't know if you could use a softener to get the veneer compliant enough to make that work or not. Even if you did, the grain patterns would be incredibly tough to get to match. Maybe a veneering pro will offer up some ideas.
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Why chase the ghost. Just make it out of Baltic and stain it. Work smarter not harder
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I think the working assumption is that the waveguide portion would be painted, and veneer would be applied to the surface. The wg is a straight 45° without a radius to the baffle surface, so a transition here wouldn't be too difficult.
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That wave guide is going to make veneering very tough. I don't know if you could use a softener to get the veneer compliant enough to make that work or not. Even if you did, the grain patterns would be incredibly tough to get to match. Maybe a veneering pro will offer up some ideas.
I think the working assumption is that the waveguide portion would be painted, and veneer would be applied to the surface. The wg is a straight 45° without a radius to the baffle surface, so a transition here wouldn't be too difficult.
Yep, my plan is to ebanize the inside of the waveguide and driver cutouts using India ink. Then veneer the rest. Since it is open I am going to have to veneer both sides of all panels. I'll probably have to do the veneering before glue up at least for the baffle. Which will mean protecting the veneer from glue contact during glule up.
Why chase the ghost. Just make it out of Baltic and stain it. Work smarter not harder
I found some killer walnut burl veneer I'd like to use on these
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=102971)
Mike
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The guide could be painted, and the baffle veneered right up to it's edge.
Oops, already suggested :duh:.
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I'm thinking the insides are going to have to be veneered before glue up with the veneer protected from squeeze out by a coat of shellack and/or painter's tape. The shellack protective coat would be sanded back down to bare wood after glue up for finishing.
With the outside corners being rounded over, they will need to be veneered after glue up.
Mike
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On a slightly different topic, would linning the inside of the wing and base with felt be benificial sonicly. If so, i might just finish the back/inside really simply (nice paint) and then the felt.
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ETA for Danny's prototype is tomorrow! I hope everyone's patience will pay off. All the fundamental challenges have been conquered, so minor changes shouldn't add much delay to public availability.
In the meantime, I'm trying to consider the difficulties in gluing this thing up. I have one idea... basically a few clamping supports, that provide parallel edges on the more difficult joints. See the picture below. Red represents the clamping supports... thinking I'd include one or two of each with the kits. The blue lines represent the clamp spans.
The larger L shaped piece could be flipped over and used on the other small wing, and of course both would be usable for the L and R version of the design. Unless I'm overlooking something, the rest of the joints will be 90°. The brace may still need some head scratching, but where's the fun without some of that? ;)
I haven't glued one up yet, so this may evolve with time... I'm sure Danny will have some insight after he puts the first set together.
Feedback... evolution on the idea?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=103084)
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Sounds like a good idea to me.
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Sounds like a good idea to me.
X2
I think you would need a pair of the exterior jig.
If you could post the side panel dimensions I would appreciate it.
Best,
Ed
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Side panel is 11.5" deep on the beveled edge, and 20.25" tall. See below.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=103155)
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^Thanks Ben!
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How are we looking guys? Do we have an idea of when it will be released?
Thanks,
Ed
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How are we looking guys? Do we have an idea of when it will be released?
Thanks,
Ed
Flat packs are here. I will start gluing them up tomorrow.
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For the love of god! I click on this thread everyday to see a picture of a completed speaker but all I get is cad drawings...
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For the love of god! I click on this thread everyday to see a picture of a completed speaker but all I get is cad drawings...
:rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Shouldn't be much lnger, I'd imagine we'll see something any day now
-jay
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Slightly better than napkin scratches though, right?
The train is on the rails... Danny has the prototype.
For the love of god! I click on this thread everyday to see a picture of a completed speaker but all I get is cad drawings...
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And all of these parts and pieces look great.
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:rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Shouldn't be much lnger, I'd imagine we'll see something any day now
-jay
I know what everybody means, like waiting on Christmas when you were a kid :green:
At least I have a little bit to keep me busy. I'm in the middle of building two pairs of X-MTM Encores and three X-CS Encores for an L/C/R setup. Then I pave a pair of X-Omnis and a couple of dual driver 8" (non-sevo) subs in the wings to build.
But none of those are for me so bring it on, daddy needs a new set of speakers for himself :drool:. My wife keeps reminding me the N3s are hers and I am welcome to listen to them whenever she is not around :roll: Hows that for WAF!
Mike
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You can barely tell that Ed might be interested..... :wink:
Me too actually....
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You can barely tell that Ed might be interested..... :wink:
Who me? Naaahhh, just curious :lol:.
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With over 20k views (no more than 19K are mine :lol:), there is apparently a lot of interest in this speaker.
How about an update?
Thanks,
Ed
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With over 20k views (no more than 19K are mine :lol:), there is apparently a lot of interest in this speaker.
How about an update?
Thanks,
Ed
Yeah, here is this weeks update: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=128113.new#new
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Yeah, here is this weeks update: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=128113.new#new
No worries. Things can wait, people in need can't.
Hope things get better for both you and Gary
Mike
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I got the prototype cabinet together and finished measuring and testing this thing today.
Totally awesome! :thumb:
Pics and measurements coming....
Oh, and I need to come up with name for this thing. :scratch:
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I got the prototype cabinet together and finished measuring and testing this thing today.
Totally awesome! :thumb:
Pics and measurements coming....
Oh, and I need to come up with name for this thing. :scratch:
How would you describe the sound, both with and without a bass section? That might help stir the imagination for a name.
Mike
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A couple of quick shots of the assembled speaker right after measuring and testing.
The baffle design worked perfectly and is very critical to the accuracy of the response. So this kit is going to have to come with the flat pack (pre-cut just as you see it).
(http://gr-research.com/pics/MMTMMa.jpg)
(http://gr-research.com/pics/MMTMMb.jpg)
(http://gr-research.com/pics/MMTMMc.jpg)
You guys can set these on just about anything that gets them up to ear level.
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I got the prototype cabinet together and finished measuring and testing this thing today.
Totally awesome! :thumb:
Pics and measurements coming....
Oh, and I need to come up with name for this thing. :scratch:
The "Genie" with a paraphrase of the Robin Williams line "Phenomenal Cosmic Power, Ity Bity Living Space"
maybe something like "Phenomenal Cosmic Sound, Ity Bity Space" or "Awe-Inspiring Sound, Ity Bity Footprint"
Mike
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X-otico. O being for open baffle.
Brn
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The "Genie" with a paraphrase of the Robin Williams line "Phenomenal Cosmic Power, Ity Bity Living Space"
maybe something like "Phenomenal Cosmic Sound, Ity Bity Space" or "Awe-Inspiring Sound, Ity Bity Footprint"
Mike
Like the idea, just a bit of a mouthful... (IMHO of course :)).
Maybe something simple and to the point.... LGK Magic,LGK Cosmic, LGK Phenom ....
Prototypes look great BTW. Can you give us a reminder of dimensions ?
-jay
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How far from the rear and side walls would these need to placed?
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How far from the rear and side walls would these need to placed?
I'd imagine the typical 3' for OB would be a good starting point. Normally with OB, more is even better
-jay
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How about Soba - Small Open Baffle Array?
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Since there is already an LGK 1.0 these could be LGK 2.0 or 4.0 since there are 4 LGK drivers. Although this one has a tweeter so maybe LGK 4.1; but then .1 usually refers to a subwoofer not a tweeter so LGK-41 ...
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Like the idea, just a bit of a mouthful... (IMHO of course :)).
Maybe something simple and to the point.... LGK Magic,LGK Cosmic, LGK Phenom ....
Prototypes look great BTW. Can you give us a reminder of dimensions ?
-jay
My thought was the name would just be "Genie" The rest would be part of the product description, provided of course that it didn't violate and copyrights or trademarks.
The idea I was trying to get at would be a name that either meant or suggested something large and majestic in a small package.
Mie
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My thought was the name would just be "Genie" The rest would be part of the product description, provided of course that it didn't violate and copyrights or trademarks.
The idea I was trying to get at would be a name that either meant or suggested something large and majestic in a small package.
Mie
Gotcha, I missed that.
I like the idea of keeping the LGK in there somewhere too.
Pretty much the rest of Danny's curent series are like that (AV, N, X), kind of makes sense to have the LGK line named similarily. Nothing wrong with adding a little catchy "nickname" to each model :thumb:
-jay
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For a series of models: OB Wan, Two, Three.
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These look great :thumb:
(http://gr-research.com/pics/MMTMMa.jpg)
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How about, "LGK Mini Array."
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Let's call them....my next speaker! :thumb:
Do we have price and availability?
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Oh boy.... I think this might be my next project for speakers in a few months. How low is it playing? Room size medium capable?
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It's gotta be an LGK Fouray, right? That is a purposeful misspelling BTW.
Danny, any closer on the Fourtress (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=127311.msg1343316#msg1343316) testing?
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How about LGK Blade?
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Guys,
Can I get a quick poll of how much interest there is in this? Maybe rather than clutter up the thread, just send me a PM.
Thanks
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I would go with either
La Crosse
or
Wisconsin
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LGK Quintet or Quintessential LGK
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Danny, any closer on the Fourtress (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=127311.msg1343316#msg1343316) testing?
Worked on it. Found some issues. Set it aside, and went back to it today.
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How about...
Wait for it...
LGK Wedgie!
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The Wedgie! That's funny. And I like it.
And the longer full floor standing version with the nine LGK's below it would be the, Full Wedgie?
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Letting my imagination go here...beware! Variations referring to size could be the fun part, a la
Mama and Papa
Major and Minor
Maxi and Mini (gotta say, the idea of a Maximum Wedgie makes me squirm a little)
Shorty and Tallboy
Abbreviated and Extended
I'm sure more will come, I'll digress for now
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Here are some measurements. Keep in mind all of this is blown up on a 5db scale.
The frequency response from 300Hz to 16kHz is almost +/-1db all the way. A crossover in the 180Hz to 200Hz range looks good too. And yea they do average about 93.5db across the board. So you can drive them with just about anything.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/MMTMM%20response.jpg)
And check out how smoothly these drivers roll off into each other. And this is just with a second order crossover.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/MMTMM%20crossover.jpg)
Here is what's really cool and the number one sign of how clean these sound. Check out how clean and fast this spectral decay is. This is especially fast in the range below 2kHz. This is super rare to see a decay rate this clean and fast. There is a LOT to be said for light weight moving masses. These will crush later woofers for resolution.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/MMTMM%20csd.jpg)
The impedance looks great too. An easy load.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/MMTMM%20impedance.jpg)
Now check this out. This is the vertical off axis response. This is very consistent. These are taken at one meter and each measurement is is taken after moving the mic up 4" per measurement. I rarely see speakers measure this smooth in the vertical off axis.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/MMTMM%20vertical.jpg)
And the horizontal off axis looks great too. These are taken on axis, at 10, 20, 30, and 40 degrees off axis. Remember this is a 5db scale.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/MMTMM%20horizontal%201.jpg)
And since the baffle is asymmetrical it took these measurements going the other way too.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/MMTMM%20horizontal%202.jpg)
That wave guide on the tweeter worked great.
Now check this out for accuracy. These measurements were taken on axis and at 10 and 20 degrees off axis each way. :green:
(http://gr-research.com/pics/MMTMM%20off%20axis%20each%20wayg.jpg)
These things are so accurate in each direction that it is creepy. These things are going to freak people out.
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WOW!!!
I really can't wait to get a pair of these :drool: :hyper: :drool:
Mike
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WOW!!!
I really can't wait to get a pair of these :drool: :hyper: :drool:
Yeah, and no DIY kit for me. Just build and ship it, please.
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Yeah, and no DIY kit for me. Just build and ship it, please.
Not a problem. I can build two pair at one time :D
Mike
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Danny,
Have you pushed these to see what type of SPL's they can put out and stay this clean?
Mike
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Danny,
Have you pushed these to see what type of SPL's they can put out and stay this clean?
Mike
The measurements do llook great but I guess I'm kind of wondering the same thing. Will these little guys fill a decent sized room ? For example, with my current speakers, they produce quite the presence in a room, will the MMTMM do similar with thosse little drivers ? I haven't had the chance to hear even a pair of the LGK 1.0's so I guess I'm just having a tough time imagining how much sound the little drivers can produce.
-jay
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The measurements do llook great but I guess I'm kind of wondering the same thing. Will these little guys fill a decent sized room ? For example, with my current speakers, they produce quite the presence in a room, will the MMTMM do similar with thosse little drivers ? I haven't had the chance to hear even a pair of the LGK 1.0's so I guess I'm just having a tough time imagining how much sound the little drivers can produce.
I have the exact same question.
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Captainhemo and EarlyB, I'm sure the full, floor standing, multiple driver version will fill your rooms. I'm a fan of OBLA's - lots of drivers with individual cones moving very little distance in their "sweet" pistonic range, without going near cone surround distortion, but having a sufficient summed volume to produce plenty of dB. Examples: the Pipe Dreams of a few years ago and the (hate to mention the word) Bose columns of many small drivers meant for pro band monitors.
Danny: those are some mighty smoooooooth graphs!
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Guys, if you use an inline RCA filter to roll off the lows then these things will handle some pretty solid SPL's with no problem.
And keep in mind these things almost hit a 94db average output with just 1 watt.
If you do some simple math you can get some numbers.
For every time you double power you get 3 more db. So 2 watts hits 97. 4 watts hits 100. 8 watts hits 103. 16 watts hits 106. 32 watts hits 109.
Each little woofer is just rated to handle 30 watts. So times 4 is 120 watts of power.
Now add a second speaker and add 6 more db.
Then as you double distance away from the speakers you loose 6db. So at 2 meters you go down 6db and at 4 meters you'd be down 12db. 4 meters is 13.12 feet.
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Guys, if you use an inline RCA filter to roll off the lows then these things will handle some pretty solid SPL's with no problem.
And keep in mind these things almost hit a 94db average output with just 1 watt.
Now thats impressive.
I wanna try these with my First Watt F6
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Are we waiting for the MMTMMMMMMMMMMM to be ready before these are released or are orders being taken for these now?
Thanks,
Ed
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Why do these look different from start to end? Seems like the top end is 5 db down..???
The right one is last total measurement and the left one is the first measurement taken?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=104866)
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Guys, if you use an inline RCA filter to roll off the lows then these things will handle some pretty solid SPL's with no problem.
And keep in mind these things almost hit a 94db average output with just 1 watt.
If you do some simple math you can get some numbers.
For every time you double power you get 3 more db. So 2 watts hits 97. 4 watts hits 100. 8 watts hits 103. 16 watts hits 106. 32 watts hits 109.
Each little woofer is just rated to handle 30 watts. So times 4 is 120 watts of power.
Now add a second speaker and add 6 more db.
Then as you double distance away from the speakers you loose 6db. So at 2 meters you go down 6db and at 4 meters you'd be down 12db. 4 meters is 13.12 feet.
I believe what the Captain and I are asking is not about loudness, per se, but more about "fullness." For example, a 10" subwoofer can fill a medium sized room, but a 15 incher will do the same thing with more power and authority. We merely seeking assurance that the Wedgies won't sound thin in a medium or large room, even with a sub.
Here's what might help -- I don't know how to compute the math, but is four 3" drivers roughly equivalent to say, one 6" driver?
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This is the response from Danny when I asked a similar question earlier in this thread?:
Danny, how would these compare with the coax of the V1? Would the music still have the same weight from 200Hz and up?
These sound much faster then the V-1 drivers and way more detailed. Vocals especially just make you take a double take. Smooth, airy, natural, and musical.
Most of that weight is going to come from the servo woofers playing up to that 200Hz range. I am playing it now with one of the sub towers of the LSX speakers and it sounds solid from top to bottom.
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Guys,
Thanks for all the PM's. So far 5 have expressed there interest.
I am going to make a batch of the kits this weekend. Give me a little more time on the price... the post-cutting labor is a lot greater with these vs the LGK's. I want to get through one or two sheets worth and get a better measure of the time.
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Danny -- where will the crossover be placed? Will it be contained in a separate box?
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Why do these look different from start to end? Seems like the top end is 5 db down..???
The right one is last total measurement and the left one is the first measurement taken?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=104866)
The one on the left was taken with an input greater than 1 watt, and it was a measurement of the drivers playing full range with no crossover.
-
Danny -- where will the crossover be placed? Will it be contained in a separate box?
In the wedged area right behind the drivers.
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Looked around on the thread, did I miss tentative pricing for the kit or flat packs?
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Looked around on the thread, did I miss tentative pricing for the kit or flat packs?
Kit and flat pack pricing hasn't been determined yet.
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Kit and flat pack pricing hasn't been determined yet.
I have a parts total. I am just waiting on Ben for a flat pack price.
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The numbers are in from Ben.
All drivers, crossover parts, screws, wire, solder, tube connectors, heat shrink, plans, support, flat pack, and shipping on the flat pack all comes in at $799.
Yes, the total came to that number to the dollar.
And that is with all Sonicaps, a Mills resistor, and the Erse XQ perfect lay inductors. So all the good stuff... :thumb:
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The numbers are in from Ben.
All drivers, crossover parts, screws, wire, solder, tube connectors, heat shrink, plans, support, flat pack, and shipping on the flat pack all comes in at $799.
Yes, the total came to that number to the dollar.
And that is with all Sonicaps, a Mills resistor, and the Erse XQ perfect lay inductors. So all the good stuff... :thumb:
Email sent! :thumb:
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The numbers are in from Ben.
All drivers, crossover parts, screws, wire, solder, tube connectors, heat shrink, plans, support, flat pack, and shipping on the flat pack all comes in at $799.
Yes, the total came to that number to the dollar.
And that is with all Sonicaps, a Mills resistor, and the Erse XQ perfect lay inductors. So all the good stuff... :thumb:
Is there still avaiability on the platinum bypass caps for the high pass circuit ? Did you happen to have them in the test pair of wedgies ? I'd think they'd be a worthwhile upgrade
Ed, I can see you grinning from here, your wait is over !!
-jay
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Is there still avaiability on the platinum bypass caps for the high pass circuit ? Did you happen to have them in the test pair of wedgies ? I'd think they'd be a worthwhile upgrade
Ed, I can see you grinning from here, your wait is over !!
-jay
There is just one cap in the tweeter circuit. So to by-pass it with a Platinum is only $36 per speaker. Yeah, that would be worth it.
-
How many caps are there total in each speaker?
What other type of upgrades would be possible?
Mike
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How many caps are there total in each speaker?
What other type of upgrades would be possible?
Mike
Only two caps on each speaker.
For this application I would stick with Sonicaps and just by-pass the Sonicap Platinum's in the tweeter circuit.
-
Danny,
Do foil inductors make any difference? I don't recall seeing any recommendations for foil inductors on any of you speakers even though you offer them on your web site.
Mike
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Danny,
Do foil inductors make any difference? I don't recall seeing any recommendations for foil inductors on any of you speakers even though you offer them on your web site.
Mike
They do, but it is not much, and most don't have a system that allows it to be noticed. Cost is quite a bit more though.
-
OK,
Thanks
Mike
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Will Ben be shipping the flat packs direct?
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Yes, I will be. Keeps the shipping cost down.
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Will Ben be shipping the flat packs direct?
Ben will be drop shipping the flat packs directly, and then he sends me a bill for it. So it makes it real easy for the customer.
And he beat me to respond...
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That makes sense
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Are you ready to start shipping these?
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There is just one cap in the tweeter circuit. So to by-pass it with a Platinum is only $36 per speaker. Yeah, that would be worth it.
I think Jay is asking about the caps needed for the inline filter. At one time you mentioned you were really low on certain values.
For me I would need caps for an amp with 100 ohm input impedance.
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Are you ready to start shipping these?
Taking orders now and putting kits together. I have several to ship already.
Better be cutting wood over there Ben...
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Making dust tonight :)
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I'll call you tomorrow to place my order. I take it NoRez isn't useful with these speakers, correct?
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I'll call you tomorrow to place my order. I take it NoRez isn't useful with these speakers, correct?
I need to play with a piece on the side panel, but I think the effect will be minimal.
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I think Jay is asking about the caps needed for the inline filter. At one time you mentioned you were really low on certain values.
For me I would need caps for an amp with 100 ohm input impedance.
Nope, I was talking about using to bypass the reg sonicap inthe high pass (tweeter) circuit on the cross over.
Sorry, made a mistake with regards to the inline filter, deleted
-jay
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Nope, I was talking about using to bypass the reg sonicap inthe high pass (tweeter) circuit on the cross over.
Sorry, made a mistake with regards to the inline filter, deleted
-jay
Sorry Jay, I mistook "high pass filter" for "in-line filter"
Mike
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OK my Wedige (is that the official name?) kit is on order as well as the caps for the in-line filter.
The niece and nephew may have to take a back seat for a little while. When the Wedgie gets here I'm starting in on it.
Mike
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OK my Wedige (is that the official name?) kit is on order as well as the caps for the in-line filter.
The niece and nephew may have to take a back seat for a little while. When the Wedgie gets here I'm starting in on it.
Mike
Awesome Mike, can't wait to see the build, that gos for the rest of you guys who've ordered them too :lol:
Did you also order the parts for the H/U-frames to build your bass section or are you using something else to get by with , those dual 8" subs you were working on a while ago perhaps ?
-jay
-
Maybe I missed it, but what solution did you come up with regarding the mid bass to sub frequencies.
Ron
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Awesome Mike, can't wait to see the build, that gos for the rest of you guys who've ordered them too :lol:
Did you also order the parts for the H/U-frames to build your bass section or are you using something else to get by with , those dual 8" subs you were working on a while ago perhaps ?
-jay
Jay,
To start with I'll be using a single Von Schweikert VR-S1 sub. This is a sealed sub with a single 10" servo controlled driver.
As soon as I can I'll be building 2 of the ported dual 8" non-servo subs I was working on awhile back. I already have the drivers and amps, just need the wood and time. These will have to wait until I get all my other projects finished though.
Then, when I can afford them I will build 2 of the dual driver H frame OB subs. I'm still not sure whether I want to use the 8" or 12" drivers. I understand the 12" drivers would be the best sound but I don't know by how much or why.
Another concern is whether the 12" drivers would be overkill in a 1,144 cu ft (11'x13'x8') room.
With the 12" drivers, an H frame looks like it would put the center of the tweeter at 41". That is 2-3 inches too tall if I want the center of the tweeter at ear height. A W frame would lower the tweeter height.
I don't know what the performance differences are between H frames and W frames. Can anybody enlighten me on this?
Mike
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Another concern is whether the 12" drivers would be overkill in a 1,144 cu ft (11'x13'x8') room.
Mike, I run two pair of the 12" servo subs in my 10.5.'x12.5'x8' room and they are not overkill, they sound fantastic with no boom and I have great bass below 20Hz:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=50146)
I had a choice of a suckout at 60Hz or what you see, I chose the later. What I can't tell you is how the 8" servo subs would do, but the 12's are outstanding bass, best I have heard. I also have a 4 AE IB15 drivers in an infinite baffle alignment in my HT driven by 2400 watt Behringer amp, I prefer the servos for music.
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Mike, I run two pair of the 12" servo subs in my 10.5.'x12.5'x8' room and they are not overkill, they sound fantastic with no boom and I have great bass below 20Hz:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=50146)
I had a choice of a suckout at 60Hz or what you see, I chose the later. What I can't tell you is how the 8" servo subs would do, but the 12's are outstanding bass, best I have heard. I also have a 4 AE IB15 drivers in an infinite baffle alignment in my HT driven by 2400 watt Behringer amp, I prefer the servos for music.
Thanks, that's good to know.
Mike
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Mike, they won't overpower the room unless you want them to.
I don't know what the performance differences are between H frames and W frames. Can anybody enlighten me on this?
There are advantages and disadvantages to the W frame. The advantage is that it is shorter. The disadvantage is that they have a larger un-braced panel area. So they are more prone to a resonance of the side panels.
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Would it be better to have the tweeter a little high and go with the better braced H Frame?
Maybe elevate the rear of the Wedgie a little to point the tweeter back down?
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Would it be better to have the tweeter a little high and go with the better braced H Frame?
Maybe elevate the rear of the Wedgie a little to point the tweeter back down?
If you want the shorter height of the W-frame, you can run a horizontal brace (3/4" X 3", say) across the driver openings, from the inside of the left panel to the right. That will minimize the resonance of those panels about as well as they are in an H-frame.
-
If you want the shorter height of the W-frame, you can run a horizontal brace (3/4" X 3", say) across the driver openings, from the inside of the left panel to the right. That will minimize the resonance of those panels about as well as they are in an H-frame.
Be careful though or you'll make it to where you can get the woofer in for mounting.
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Be careful though or you'll make it to where you can get the woofer in for mounting.
Because of the angles involved I was wondering about that.
What's the actual diameter of the mounting ring on the 12" woofers?
Mike
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Because of the angles involved I was wondering about that.
What's the actual diameter of the mounting ring on the 12" woofers?
Mike
12.625"
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Danny do you have the 8 ohm 12 inch servos in yet? I don't see them on the website.
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Danny do you have the 8 ohm 12 inch servos in yet? I don't see them on the website.
Not yet. They have been completed and will ship next week.
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Because of the angles involved I was wondering about that.
What's the actual diameter of the mounting ring on the 12" woofers?
Mike
Mike, the important dimension in consideration of getting a driver past a brace in a W-frame is not the diameter of the mounting flange, but the depth of the driver. There has to be enough clearance between one of the baffles and (the back end of) the brace for the woof to slide between them. In order to mount it, you must slide the woofer up the surface of the baffle to it's mounting hole. The clearance between the baffle and the brace, therefore, has to be greater than the depth of the woofer. Once it is past the brace, there is no problem getting the woofer into it's mounting hole in the baffle. This all assumes that your W-frames are built per Danny's OB plans for the 12-16FR woofer.
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Mike, the important dimension in consideration of getting a driver past a brace in a W-frame is not the diameter of the mounting flange, but the depth of the driver. There has to be enough clearance between the baffle (of the front-facing woofer) and (the back end of) the brace for the woof to slide between them. In order to mount it, you must slide the woofer up the surface of the baffle to it's mounting hole. The clearance between the baffle and the brace, therefore, has to be greater than the depth of the woofer. Once it is past the brace, there is no problem getting the woofer into it's mounting hole in the baffle. This all assumes that your W-frames are built per Danny's OB plans for the 12-16FR woofer.
I think I get what you are saying now. If I understand correctly, you are not talking about a brace that would glue up to both side walls and the baffle between the drivers. The type of brace you are talking about will only touch, and be glued to, the two side walls and have a gap between the back of the brace and the baffle greater than the depth of the woofer, correct?
Mike
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Exactly Mike. For instance, a thick closet dowel, or even a 2 X 4, spanning the open cavity of the W-frame, glued to the inside of the two side walls right at the middle (in height) of their front edge. What one could do, for more extreme bracing, is drill holes in each side panel for screws to secure a full depth brace, and install the brace after the front driver is in place. Except that brace might load the front of the woofer slightly (the woofer would fire at the full depth brace at an angle of 45 degrees). Of course, the cavity of an H-frame also loads the woofer to a degree.
-
Old V-1 Prototypes:
(http://gr-research.com/images/ppair.jpg)
The brace helped a lot. And in this case I screwed it to both walls. The No Rez helped too, but these side panels really needed to be two layers thick.
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I wanted to give an update on the flatpacks. I was laid out flat Thursday and Friday last week with some preschool-borne cold. Then I was in Chicago for work Sat-Monday.
Back to cutting last night... this is where it stands:
Half inch parts all cut for 12 pairs. 24 large wings, 24 bases and braces, and 48 small wings. 528 tabs flushed trimmed away (trying to conjure up a vacuum hold down for the next evolution of this machine).
I'll be starting on the baffles this evening. Then onto the table saw work.
(http://i.imgur.com/dzPCXXV.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Awvueoy.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/p6ImYzC.jpg)
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Has any of the woodworkers ever worked with Corian (the solid surface countertop material)?
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Has any of the woodworkers ever worked with Corian (the solid surface countertop material)?
I'm not an expert, but talking to a materials engineer a while back, Corian is not anything special. Just filled acrylic.
It is not that well damped. Resonance is good, but not great. Again, nothing special.
Large pieces bend.
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Just curious. It's an attractive material and a speaker like this could play to its strengths (attractive, no large pieces, not being fashioned into a box, etc.). A flat pack could literally be a finished product when assembled. Just thinking "outside the box".
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Hey Guys,
I'll be shipping out the first batch today. FYI - I will be out of town for 2 weeks starting tomorrow. If you want to get in on today's shipment, I need to get your order from Danny by 12:00 CST.
(http://i.imgur.com/s0NtoFp.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/GnvpcoN.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/jGGHgMp.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/WsHvGiE.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/AyPdGfq.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/PGqma3W.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/zF1tCX1.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/IJCSDGX.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/OQdRrun.jpg)
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In the meantime, I'm trying to consider the difficulties in gluing this thing up. I have one idea... basically a few clamping supports, that provide parallel edges on the more difficult joints. See the picture below. Red represents the clamping supports... thinking I'd include one or two of each with the kits. The blue lines represent the clamp spans.
The larger L shaped piece could be flipped over and used on the other small wing, and of course both would be usable for the L and R version of the design. Unless I'm overlooking something, the rest of the joints will be 90°. The brace may still need some head scratching, but where's the fun without some of that? ;)
I haven't glued one up yet, so this may evolve with time... I'm sure Danny will have some insight after he puts the first set together.
Feedback... evolution on the idea?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=103084)
Ben,
I don't recall reading whether you had moved forward with this idea or not.
Danny, what did you end up doing to glue the flatpack up? Any pointers?
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double post
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Love the "actin shots" Ben, very cool :thumb:
Have any of you guys who are getting some of the first batch considered/decided on how you'll be finishing your Wedgies ?
Looking forward to following a builod thread or two
-jay
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The first thing I did was glue the base onto the front baffle. I used the side wings just to make sure it was straight by just holding them on by hand and lining them up to the edges of the front baffle.
After the base was dry then I glued on the large wing. For it I had to add a few clamps on the inside of the front baffle looping through the woofer holes to make a stop so that when I put clamping force on the side wing it didn't allow it to move toward the center of the front baffle.
After it was dry I did the same with the little side wings.
The diagonal was last.
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The first thing I did was glue the base onto the front baffle. I used the side wings just to make sure it was straight by just holding them on by hand and lining them up to the edges of the front baffle.
After the base was dry then I glued on the large wing. For it I had to add a few clamps on the inside of the front baffle looping through the woofer holes to make a stop so that when I put clamping force on the side wing it didn't allow it to move toward the center of the front baffle.
After it was dry I did the same with the little side wings.
The diagonal was last.
Thanks Danny.
-
Have any of you guys who are getting some of the first batch considered/decided on how you'll be finishing your Wedgies ?
Yes :lol:
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Yes :lol:
LOL, you're funny. Ok then if you're going to make me ask.... care to share or is it going to be a surpriese ?
-jay
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LOL, you're funny. Ok then if you're going to make me ask.... care to share or is it going to be a surpriese ?
-jay
Sorry Jay, just messin' with ya! :wink:
I'm going to do something like this:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=105593)
I am going to hold off on the finishes for now, I am still trying to make up my mind which way to go.
I will be using the servos in my V1s until I decide how I want to proceed, I think I will end up building the subs out separately in pairs (similar to your excellent build) and build the top of the V1s into a separate unit that I can hook up if I really want to rock out.
Best,
Ed
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Love the "actin shots" Ben, very cool :thumb:
Have any of you guys who are getting some of the first batch considered/decided on how you'll be finishing your Wedgies ?
Looking forward to following a builod thread or two
-jay
I'll be veneering mine
Mike
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Sorry Jay, just messin' with ya! :wink:
I'm going to do something like this:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=105593)
I am going to hold off on the finishes for now, I am still trying to make up my mind which way to go.
I will be using the servos in my V1s until I decide how I want to proceed, I think I will end up building the subs out separately in pairs (similar to your excellent build) and build the top of the V1s into a separate unit that I can hook up if I really want to rock out.
Best,
Ed
No worries , I knew you were "messin" :lol:
That looks pretty cool, after seeing it, I now seem to remember reading earlier in the thread about you doing this... is it just an extended wing reaching down to a large, heavy base ? Can't remember if Danny told us how heavy 1 finished wedgie came in at ?
Using the servo subs in your V1's is a great idea until you decide on something more permanent, nice to have that option. If I remember right, I think Guy's V1's have the top and bottom sections seperate.
Will be fun watching you and Mike build these out
-jay
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Received my kit from Danny last week and the flat pack from Ben today, thanks guys. All items arrived in tact. Ben, that packing worked well and all arrived without damage. The flat pack looks great, the tolerances are incredibly tight on the LGK cutouts. Danny, did you use the gaskets, I don't know that the driver and gasket will fit, seemed too tight? I haven't had a chance to dry fit anything else.
The size of this setup as compared to the pics is deceiving, at least it was for me. I like it.
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Received my kit from Danny last week and the flat pack from Ben today, thanks guys. All items arrived in tact. Ben, that packing worked well and all arrived without damage. The flat pack looks great, the tolerances are incredibly tight on the LGK cutouts. Danny, did you use the gaskets, I don't know that the driver and gasket will fit, seemed too tight? I haven't had a chance to dry fit anything else.
The size of this setup is deceiving, at least it was for me. I like it.
I use the gaskets.
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My flatpacks came in today also. The kits arrived last week as well. I asked Ben about the orientation of the short wings and top brace. The rounded over edges face the inside of the speaker.
It doesn't look like I'm going to be able to veneer the insides of the short wings and the top brace. I don't know how to roll a single piece of veneer over edges in two dimensions. Plus, once the wings are glued on there is not much flat area on the back of the baffle for veneer. I'm thinking I might stain the back of the baffle, inside of the short wings and top brace black.
Another option would be to cut the three small pieces out of solid wood that matches the veneer I choose. Providing that having these pieces made out of solid wood would not adversely affect the speakers performance.
Is the bottom stout enough to add threaded inserts for spikes or can I add a second piece of material and/or a wider base to the bottom to hold the spikes?
Mike
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I'm really looking forward to the MANDATORY build pics and initial reviews. 8)
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Temping my baffles up, the kit fits together perfectly, great work Ben.
I have a question for Danny, did you use spacers between the baffle board and the NEO3 where the screws attach it to the baffle?
Thanks,
Ed
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Temping my baffles up, the kit fits together perfectly, great work Ben.
I have a question for Danny, did you use spacers between the baffle board and the NEO3 where the screws attach it to the baffle?
Thanks,
Ed
I mounted the tweeter flat against the baffle.
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Here's where I'm at with my wedges. After dry fitting to get a feel for how everything went together, I identified the parts that I could not veneer and decided to dye them black then use a French Polish finish. These include the wave guide, the rear of the front baffle, and the inside facing portions of the short wings and the cross brace.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=105912)
I'm using and an alcohol based India ink as the dye
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=105913)
Here is the front of the baffle. The driver insets are just being dyed black, not polished. The wave guide is about half way done.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=105914)
The entire rear baffle, including the roundovers is being polished. Again about half done,
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=105915)
Here is the inside of the short wings and the cross braces
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=105916)
I haven't decided if I'm going to leave the black parts glossy or rub them down to a satin finish.
I decided to use some Mozambique veneer I bought awhile back. So far, all the veneer I have used has been paper backed. This is the first time I have used raw wood so I have some new skills to learn.
First is laying it out and setting up
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=105917)
Then cutting the pieces to length. I'm cutting 5 pieces at a time.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=105918)
Here are all the pieces cut and ready for the next step. The two stacks in the center are for the outsides, the two stacks on the ends are for the inside of the large wings and top of the bases, and the stack at the bottom is for the bottom of the bases and top of the cross braces.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=105919)
Once I finish with the black parts I have to bookmatch and apply the veneer.
Mike
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So the dye doesn't leave a blotchy uneven finish on unsealed MDF?
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This particular dye works really well, even application with no blotches, and since it has some shellack mixed in, once it dries it doesn't smear like some other dyes I've tried. Which makes sense considering it is intended to be used as ink for writing or drawing.
Also, I've tinted the shellack I use for the French polishing black by adding black TransTint. This deepens the color.
Mike
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Ok good, we're back off the no picture thing again.
I've used General Finishes Dye Stain before. It can turn wood any color without hiding grain. It's flat though. That worked for me. I used clear spray over it, then sanded in a sort of weathered look to match the rest of the piece (old, beat up here and there).
India ink hmm... How does wood handle grain raise with alcohol? I wetted my wood down and then sanded so it didn't pop too much.
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Alcohol doesn't raise the grain. That's one thing I like about using it.
Mike
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Awesome. Glad to hear that, Ed.
Mike, looking good. Keep the pics coming.
Temping my baffles up, the kit fits together perfectly, great work Ben.
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When these are glued up, are they supposed to be the same or mirror images (a left and a right)?
Mike
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When these are glued up, are they supposed to be the same or mirror images (a left and a right)?
Mike
Mirrored images man.
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Danny,
Thought so, thanks.
Mike
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wings to the inside or outside ?
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The baffle, large wings, and base are all unisex. The top brace is not... It'll only work one way, with the roundovers facing down.
The small wings are sort of interchangeable. For instance one could be the top for the left side, or the bottom for the right side. The roundovers should face inward.
Dry fit, of course, to make sure everything is clear before getting out the glue.
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large wings would go in
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large wings would go in
Yep.
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For me the issue came up when I started laying out & masking off the inside of the large wings for the veneer glue. I don't want veneer where the bottom glues to the large wing. When I was ready to apply the veneer glue I realized I had both wings laid out in the same orientation and thought one needed to be reversed. That's when I decided to try something a little different and ask first.
Mike
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I had a similar issue when I glued the first one up, after I had it clamped I realized I had the baffle upside down, fortunately I was able to pull the brace and bottom off and reverse.
I had a change in plans. I was initially going to run the large side down to the floor, with the side doubled up below the bottom. I cut the sides and temped it up but I didn't like the way it looked so I decided to build it as designed and build a separate stand for it, I am still working on the stand design.
A couple of minor changes to the base and the brace, here they are so far:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106029)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106028)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106025)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106026)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106024)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106023)
Paint can for scale, to me they appear larger in pictures that they actually look.
I was considering a wrap for this but I think I am going to give painting a shot.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106023)
Paint can for scale, to me they appear larger in pictures that they actually look.
I was considering a wrap for this but I think I am going to give painting a shot.
Wow, that paint can really does put them into perspective, I think it was Peter that did the same thing but with a cd sleeve in maybe the fourtress thread ....
If you're going to paint Ed, really work at getting the seams as perfect as you can even if it means filling/sanding a few times. The extra effort will pay off :thumb:.
Go with a good quality primer too, I really liked the BullsEye 1,2,3 primer/sealer I recently used on the H-frame.
Have yo decided on a color for your top coat yet ?
Looking good btw
-jay
-jay
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Cool pics so far!
Got a couple of quick questions:
1. What is the height of the baffle?
2. What are the dimensions of the side panel?
3. Once the speakers are set up, will the side panels be on the inside or outside?
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11.5 inches by 20.25 inches.....see page 14 for drawing.....baffle looks to be also 20.25 inches tall.
See Captainhemo and Danny's posts on this page.....they like the big wing on the inside. You can do as you wish.
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I caught that :lol:
-jay
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Hoping for stellar reviews from builders for Danny's continued ground-breaking success. But I hope I don't get sad and jealous that I am slowly building a super v and not this LGK kit.
Looking forward to more build pics and great reviews.
Ben
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Hoping for stellar reviews from builders for Danny's continued ground-breaking success. But I hope I don't get sad and jealous that I am slowly building a super v and not this LGK kit.
Looking forward to more build pics and great reviews.
Ben
I'm in the same boat so don't feel too bad.
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I may end up in the same boat with these. I had given up waiting on the X-Otica so I went with these. Now the X-Otica looks like it might actually happen.
Don't know which I'd end up liking better so the LGK Wedge may not be a wrong move. Only time will tell
Mike
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I may end up in the same boat with these. I had given up waiting on the X-Otica so I went with these. Now the X-Otica looks like it might actually happen.
Don't know which I'd end up liking better so the LGK Wedge may not be a wrong move. Only time will tell
Mike
Yeah, I'm much much more interested in the x-otica and despite being in the middle of a Super V build, I would probably buy them anyway. I can't see myself doing that with the wedge even though I am very curious about them and they are supposed to be better than the Super V .
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Hoping for stellar reviews from builders for Danny's continued ground-breaking success. But I hope I don't get sad and jealous that I am slowly building a super v and not this LGK kit.
Rock Drummer,
If you have ever heard the Super V cranked during a drum solo, you won't be jealous. 3" full range drivers can't have the mid/upper-bass impact and dynamics the 12" P-Audio coax has. Resolution? different story there. The neo 3 is just sweeter than the 2" dome P-Audio tweeter. But for "fun factor", the Super V is hard to beat. It is quite an amazing rock speaker. :drums:
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Rock Drummer,
If you have ever heard the Super V cranked during a drum solo, you won't be jealous. 3" full range drivers can't have the mid/upper-bass impact and dynamics the 12" P-Audio coax has. Resolution? different story there. The neo 3 is just sweeter than the 2" dome P-Audio tweeter. But for "fun factor", the Super V is hard to beat. It is quite an amazing rock speaker. :drums:
I agree 100%
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I'm also in the middle of a Super V being built and while I find the Wedge interesting what I'm really interested in is the X-Otica. That's O.K. thou because I need a smaller speaker for another space that is much smaller. I guess I can wait a little longer? :dunno:
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Rock Drummer,
If you have ever heard the Super V cranked during a drum solo, you won't be jealous. 3" full range drivers can't have the mid/upper-bass impact and dynamics the 12" P-Audio coax has. Resolution? different story there. The neo 3 is just sweeter than the 2" dome P-Audio tweeter. But for "fun factor", the Super V is hard to beat. It is quite an amazing rock speaker. :drums:
I agree 100%
That's great to hear. I suddenly found myself in that, "OOOH, the newest is obviously the greatest" feeling.
Easy to forget how good the super v is and it's reputation.
Ben
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Besides Definitive Technology speakers with a Denon receiver, I am making my first step into tube amps with Bottlehead and true Hi Fi speakers with Danny's Super V. I have a feeling when I'm done, I will be loving the steps up. Plus, I certainly have time to upgrade later. I have heard the vocals, especially women, have a great sound on the Super V.
This Neo 3 sweet sound has really intrigued me.
Ben
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That's great to hear. I suddenly found myself in that, "OOOH, the newest is obviously the greatest" feeling.
Easy to forget how good the super v is and it's reputation.
Ben
I'd take the Super Vs over most speakers out there. I don't think you'll have speaker envy for some time after getting them up and running :D
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In the bass alone, nothing can really touch the Super V's. Those OB servo subs are incredibly detailed and musical, and can smack you upside the head when required. Dynamics from top to bottom are among best in class. Imaging and detail are also excellent. But they are not a small speaker and they need space.
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Hey Ed, if you paint, I am curious what you use to fill seems if there are any in your wedges.
Thanks,
Ben
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In the bass alone, nothing can really touch the Super V's. Those OB servo subs are incredibly detailed and musical, and can smack you upside the head when required. Dynamics from top to bottom are among best in class. Imaging and detail are also excellent. But they are not a small speaker and they need space.
This is all good to hear, the space I will have ready for my Super V's is 20'x30'x10. If I use the Cardas rule they will be 7' from the front wall and about 5' from the side walls.
Greg
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This is all good to hear, the space I will have ready for my Super V's is 20'x30'x10. If I use the Cardas rule they will be 7' from the front wall and about 5' from the side walls.
Greg
That's perfect.
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I agree 100%
My 2 cents worth.... While I appreciate my Neo based detail, for voice and acoustics, nothing beats the coax. Why ? Reality really .for me, with the Neo, the voice is front face, the "kiss" if you will, is a 3' stretch. On the other hand, the Vs coax delivers an enveloping effect, as if the "kiss" is a close encounter. Weird ? Not really, waveguides and treated rooms are stellar in my way of thinking. The AMT gets closer, executed properly. Forget rock, with classic we have 80% of delivery , below 300Hz, the Vs are exemplary !
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Hey Ed, if you paint, I am curious what you use to fill seems if there are any in your wedges.
Thanks,
Ben
Hey Ben, I will use what I have used in the past, joint compound (drywall mud), it seems to do a nice job of smoothing out the cut edges of MDF as well as filling small gaps in the seams.
With regard to your Super Vs, I can't imagine you not loving them, although not the super, my V1s excel at rock, I will be keeping my coaxes for times when I want to rock out, that's the plan anyway. The Bottle head/ Super V/V1s are an outstanding combination IMHO.
Best,
Ed
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Hey Ben, I will use what I have used in the past, joint compound (drywall mud), it seems to do a nice job of smoothing out the cut edges of MDF as well as filling small gaps in the seams.
Best,
Ed
I've used the drywall mud too and it does "seam" :) to work well. I am now using this stuff which I like better
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106273)
Might want to give it a try
-jay
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I've used the drywall mud too and it does "seam" :) to work well. I am now using this stuff which I like better
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106273)
Might want to give it a try
-jay
And you said I was funny :lol:. I will have to give this a shot, looks like Home Depot and Walmart carry it.
edit: correction, it appears Canadian Home Depot and Walmart's carry it, perhaps it is not available in the US.
Thanks for the heads up.
Best,
Ed
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And you said I was funny :lol:. I will have to give this a shot, looks like Home Depot and Walmart carry it.
edit: correction, it appears Canadian Home Depot and Walmart's carry it, perhaps it is not available in the US.
Thanks for the heads up.
Best,
Ed
Not available in the US ? Isn't it usually the other way around :lol: Hopefully you can find it at a different ouotlet and give it a try.
I'm actually going through that right now.... I'm just finishing up the 2nd H frame cabinet (haven't ordered the parts from Danny yet). When I went to get paint, apparently the Duplicolor Textured paint I used on the 1st cabinet is no longer available in Canada :wtf:
Places like Jeg's, Summit etc aren't "allowed" to ship it to Canada
-jay
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Danny,
I'm looking at the LGK Wedge crossover schematics. It appears that you are reversing the phase of the tweeter, is that correct?
Mike
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Danny,
I'm looking at the LGK Wedge crossover schematics. It appears that you are reversing the phase of the tweeter, is that correct?
Mike
Yes.
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Thanks
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I got some more work done on my Wedges. I veneered and finished the insides before gluing anything up
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106353)
I glued the bottom to the large wing first. Notice the adapter on the parallel bar clamp. These made clamping the angled pieces easy.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106354)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106355)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106356)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106357)
Next I glued the baffles on
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106358)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106359)
Then came the short wings. First I had to remove the finish where glue was going to be applied (I had to do the same thing on the baffles also)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106366)
Then glue the wings on
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106360)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106362)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106363)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106365)
And finally the top brace
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106367)
I have one more top brace to glue up then I have to veneer and finish the outside and edges
Mike
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WOW, very nice Mike. The veneer is orgeous :thumb:
-jay
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Thanks Jay
Mike
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Looking good as usual, Mike.
Those clamp adaptors are something I'd never seen so I nosed around. Looks like they only fit second gen. K bodies but they look handy and are on my "to get" list now.
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My Wedge kit was cut out perfectly and since it is so small why use clamps.
Just use a drop of thick or med CA glue every 2-3 inches and spread wood glue between the drops
and press together tightly. Hold for 10-20 seconds for the CA glue to dry. The CA glue acts as a clamp
while the wood glue dries. Also make sure to use wax paper underneath. It took me about 20 minutes
to glue up both. Even though I have at least 100 clamps in my workshop, I only needed 2 small c-clamps
to use as stops to position the large wing.
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My Wedge kit was cut out perfectly and since it is so small why use clamps.
Just use a drop of thick or med CA glue every 2-3 inches and spread wood glue between the drops
and press together tightly. Hold for 10-20 seconds for the CA glue to dry. The CA glue acts as a clamp
while the wood glue dries. Also make sure to use wax paper underneath. It took me about 20 minutes
to glue up both. Even though I have at least 100 clamps in my workshop, I only needed 2 small c-clamps
to use as stops to position the large wing.
That's interesting, what is CA glue? I haven't heard of this technique before.
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That's interesting, what is CA glue? I haven't heard of this technique before.
Cyanoacrylate, (super glue)
You can get it in all different consistancies including a gap gilling gel. Good to have around if you're using exacto knifes too :lol:
-jay
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Can a component lead be connected directly to the tube connector or must the component lead be soldered to a wire that is then connected to the tube connector?
For example, can one lead of the resistor be soldered directly to the tube connector?
Mike
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After multiple coats of primer and sanding I am ready to start my base coat, here you go:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106423)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106424)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106425)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106426)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106427)
More later.
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Looking good :thumb:
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A couple more pics. Had an issue on one of the cabinets (reminds me why I normally choose not to paint), I am currently working through it.
Base coat:.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106485)
Top coat:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106486)
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I really like that color! The finish looks very smooth! What brand of spray paint is it? I can't quite read the label of the can in the picture.
thanks,
tom
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That looks really good. I can't make a paint job look good worth a flying flip, that's one reason I veneer.
Mike
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Looking really nice Ed :thumb:
I really like the color too, it almost looks like a candy or aodized finish . Pretty cool what you can get in a spray bomb these days
Duplicolor MetalCast ?
-jay
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I envy you guys that are proficient at using a spray paint cans. Every single time I try I always get runs from too much paint or light uneven coverage. I have probably watched about 100 YouTube spay paint videos lol. It just isn't my bag I guess.
I may try again at some point. :(
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Thanks guys. Yes, it is Duplicolor Metalcast Red.
Painting isn't my bag either. These are looking OK but not great. This is my first time using a base coat and a top coat setup. I should have tried it on scrap first, I learned quite a bit on the first speaker, the second came out better. I can live with them. I may try a clear coat as well, it depends on how they look tonight.
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They look good Ed.... :thumb:
Have you decided on a base yet?
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Thanks Perry. I will rig up a stand for them so I can see how I like the integration of the bass in a separate speaker. If that works out OK I will build some stands likely mimicking the shape of this speaker's base down to the floor and sand load them. If I don't like them as separate speakers I may start playing with the "U" frame to see how it sounds, I think a narrower base than an "H" frame can provide will look better with this top section.
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A few more pics. I am a little happier with them, the baffles came out nice, the sides both have some rough spots. I am considering doing some wet sanding but welcome recommendations, especially if you have worked with this type paint.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106527)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106532)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106534)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106536)
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Hard to see any flaws there. They look very good, Ed.
You might be the first, besides Danny, to give some listening impressions. Looking forward to that.
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A few more pics. I am a little happier with them, the baffles came out nice, the sides both have some rough spots. I am considering doing some wet sanding but welcome recommendations, especially if you have worked with this type paint.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106527)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106532)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106534)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106536)
Hey Ed.... Nice build ! When doing oil varnish or paint, I prefer to 220 sand and re coat such that I'm happy with the "flat" finish then spray polyurethane to "pop" the color and /or grain. Many don't like the poly approach because it is technique dependent. You must work front to back and push the "cloud" away from piece. Practice is good ! As a "V" guy, I'm looking forward to your integration reviews with those 12" servos. The Zenith radio cab below was sanded 280 grit and dull before the poly spray.... Automotive guys do basically same thing. Trying to get an even "shine" with a "paint coat" is tough
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106566)
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Just finished my Wedges this morning and have been listening to them for a couple hours. WOW!!!
They do sound incredible and they are not even broken in yet. The imaging and soundstage these
things have is like Danny said, scary. Pin-point placement of instruments and vocals.
I have had speakers with higher sensitivity but these go quite
a bit louder with my little 14wpc tube amp. Must have something to do with the inline filter.
This is the speaker I have been waiting for over my years of building kits. A speaker that takes the
best characteristics of many different great speakers and bumps the SQ a level, plus is affordable.
Thank you Danny!
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Great to hear Keith, please post again as you get some time on them. I had hoped to have mine running this week but now it appears it may have to wait until late next week or after.
Pics please (or it didn't happen ;-) )
Dave, thanks for the tip (beautiful old radio BTW).
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Just finished my Wedges this morning and have been listening to them for a couple hours. WOW!!!
They do sound incredible and they are not even broken in yet. The imaging and soundstage these
things have is like Danny said, scary. Pin-point placement of instruments and vocals.
I have had speakers with higher sensitivity but these go quite
a bit louder with my little 14wpc tube amp. Must have something to do with the inline filter.
This is the speaker I have been waiting for over my years of building kits. A speaker that takes the
best characteristics of many different great speakers and bumps the SQ a level, plus is affordable.
Thank you Danny!
Cool Keith 8)
What subs are you running with them ?
Ed, so long as you keep the subs from the V's close, I don't think you'll even notice they are eperate. Granted my subs and my OB7's cross lower than your Wedgies will and they are beside each other, it just sounds like my mains suddenly play WAY down, it's seamless. I'd think if you can keep them close, you'd get the same results.
-jay
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Here are some pictures. I didn't know what I would be doing with this build so I just painted
them flat black and put solid walnut cap and base on them. All I wanted to do was hear them. This is just a temporary set-up and
now after hearing them I will be getting Servo subs and doing a build matching the sound.
Sorry for the bad pictures.
The subs are Hawthorne Augies from my HT system. Good sub but I think the Wedges deserve better.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106595)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106596)
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There's nothing wrong with flat black.
Interesting looking crossover build.
Mike
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^^
Agreed, I think they look sharp .
Thanks for the pics :thumb:
-jay
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^^^
Yes, very nice, thanks for mentioning the walnut caps, I didn't see them at first. Looks like you have a nice room as well, will you share the dimensions and let us know how well the Wedges fill it?
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Here are some pictures.
Can you take a couple of closeup shots of your crossover? I like how you have it mounted.
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What would be wrong with extending the front and side panels, making it a tower speaker. Then adding a 12" woofer facing outward on the lower half ?
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What would be wrong with extending the front and side panels, making it a tower speaker. Then adding a 12" woofer facing outward on the lower half ?
I wouldn't want vibrations from the sub destroying the superb detail of the LGK's. However, it could appear that the panel continued. Have you seen Danny's ultimate speaker stand? I think you could mimic it with a similar shape to the LGKN OB array but not be connected directly. I'm sure someone else can weigh in better.
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Got a little more done. I have the edge banding applied and the crossover networks built.
Here are some shots of the edge banding
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106616)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106617)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106618)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106619)
Here are the crossovers
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106620)
I really should have made them more compact. They turned out at least a couple of inches too long and are going to have to hang over the back.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106621)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106622)
Hopefully tomorrow I will be able to get the outsides veneered then get the finish applied to everything this weekend. Then it will be wire them up and go.
Mike
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Looking good Mike. I had the same idea regarding locating the tube connectors on the crossover board. Unfortunately I didn't think about it until I had already glued the connector board to the main speaker assembly.
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Here a picture of the crossover. It is a 4x6 piece of 3/4" walnut hollowed out 1/2" deep on the backside
with 1/4" sides. End with the tube connectors is 3/4" thick. So all the wiring and soldering is underneath and
if anyone notices the resistor is missing it is underneath.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106633)
This is the 1/2" walnut top cap. Used dowels on the large wing and the baffle. The brace uses screws. Ran a 1/2" solid carbide
spiral flush trim bit around the top of the speaker. Notice it cracked, 1/2" is really thin for walnut with the grain running
that direction. At least it will be easy to fix with some fine sandpaper, a Q-tip and Watco.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106634)
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? Why are the caps different on these xo's One is a 10 and one is a 9?
P
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Here a picture of the crossover. It is a 4x6 piece of 3/4" walnut hollowed out 1/2" deep on the backside
with 1/4" sides. End with the tube connectors is 3/4" thick. So all the wiring and soldering is underneath and
if anyone notices the resistor is missing it is underneath.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106633)
This is the 1/2" walnut top cap. Used dowels on the large wing and the baffle. The brace uses screws. Ran a 1/2" solid carbide
spiral flush trim bit around the top of the speaker. Notice it cracked, 1/2" is really thin for walnut with the grain running
that direction. At least it will be easy to fix with some fine sandpaper, a Q-tip and Watco.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106634)
That is really clean and very sharp, both the cap and the crossover. Doing a cap that way looks like it would be a lot easier than gluing on and trimming a bunch of small veneer strips like I did. I'm going to have to remember this.
How did you hollow out the underside of the crossover, a pattern bit?
Mike
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? Why are the caps different on these xo's One is a 10 and one is a 9?
P
If you look a little closer you will notice there are two sets of numbers on each cap. One is the factory etched nominal value and the other is the actual value Danny measured and wrote on the cap with a Sharpie. When he puts the kits together, the cap values are matched as close as possible.
Mike
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I have this pair of cabinets finished. I went with less depth and a lower gloss finish than I put on the N3's
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106759)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106760)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106761)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106762)
I should get them wired up in the next couple of days.
Mike
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Stunning Mike, wonderfully done. Looking forward to your impressions of the sound.
Greg
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Nice mike, I love that veneer, great job!
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Simpy gorgeous..outstanding... :thumb:
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Nicely done man , wow :thumb: :thumb:
Figured that veneer was going to be something special, as Greg says, "Stunning"
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Thanks everybody.
Lots of lessons learned with these.
Beginning to wire things up. It looks these drivers will be easier to wire up mounted to the baffle. All except the bottom woofer. It's going to have to be wired up then attached to the baffle. There is not enough room for me to get to the terminals.
I may have them playing by tomorrow night but I won't have the inline filters built and I will have to have them playing with a single sealed sub so I won't be getting the full effect yet.
Mike
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Mike
You've probably already thought of this but is that single sealed sub going to make it up to the 200hz area ?
-jay
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I know it isn't a big deal to wire up the driver then install it, but in the future that bottom one or two drivers could be cut with the terminal openings on top to make them all accessible after being mounted, couldn't they? I know I didn't like laying the drivers down to solder in the monitor kits I built. Just thinking out loud.
Lookings terrific btw. Love the black/veneer contrast.
Ben
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I know it isn't a big deal to wire up the driver then install it, but in the future that bottom one or two drivers could be cut with the terminal openings on top to make them all accessible after being mounted, couldn't they?
I had the same thought, in reality I could have simply turned the baffle upside down, still I think having all of the wiring terminations pointing to the middle of the baffle would be a plus.
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Mike
You've probably already thought of this but is that single sealed sub going to make it up to the 200hz area ?
-jay
Jay,
Not sure how things are going to work out in the short run for a few reasons:
1) I don't know what the -6dB point is for the Wedges without the inline filter. The graphs Danny posted back on page 16 of this thread look like the -6 point is at 200Hz but I don't know if that is with or without the inline filter.
2) As a point of reference, the crossover control on the A370PEQ goes up to 120Hz and Danny said this will easily blend with the Wedges, even using the inline filter which limits the low end extension of the Wedges (crosses over higher than without the filter).
3) According to the user's manual, my 10" VR-S1 sealed sub has a 50 Hz to 100 Hz variable crossover with Linkwist- Riley slopes. I don't know what that means for where the -6dB point is going to be above 100Hz, especially since the specs use the term slopes, plural.
4) I also have the 8" ported X-Sub I built awhile back. The crossover control on the amp I used (Yung SD300-6) goes up to 200Hz.
5) I don't have any type of analysis software or equipment so I only have my ears to work with.
My preference is to use the VR-S1 since this is designed for music and sounds much cleaner than the X-Sub. Any insights and/or suggestions would be welcome.
By the way, I have one wired up and working. One more to go.
Mike
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Jay,
Not sure how things are going to work out in the short run for a few reasons:
1) I don't know what the -6dB point is for the Wedges without the inline filter. The graphs Danny posted back on page 16 of this thread look like the -6 point is at 200Hz but I don't know if that is with or without the inline filter.
2) As a point of reference, the crossover control on the A370PEQ goes up to 120Hz and Danny said this will easily blend with the Wedges, even using the inline filter which limits the low end extension of the Wedges (crosses over higher than without the filter).
3) According to the user's manual, my 10" VR-S1 sealed sub has a 50 Hz to 100 Hz variable crossover with Linkwist- Riley slopes. I don't know what that means for where the -6dB point is going to be above 100Hz, especially since the specs use the term slopes, plural.
4) I also have the 8" ported X-Sub I built awhile back. The crossover control on the amp I used (Yung SD300-6) goes up to 200Hz.
5) I don't have any type of analysis software or equipment so I only have my ears to work with.
My preference is to use the VR-S1 since this is designed for music and sounds much cleaner than the X-Sub. Any insights and/or suggestions would be welcome.
By the way, I have one wired up and working. One more to go.
Mike
Pretty cool you've just about got them wired up :)
Not sure I can be a whole lot of help with your above points
1. I'd assume that the 200hz is what the wedgies will do without a filter, then "you'd" build your filter accordingly.
2. Yeah, wasn't referring to the A370/GR servo subs that you're planning as I know they'll easily play up , beliee Danny has mentioned up to 300hz in the past.
3/4. I'm pretty cluessless when it comes to this stuff so I could be way off here but, the Linkwist- Riley slpe is 12db/octave if I'm right. So if you set the crossover on your 10" VR-S1 to 100hz, would that not put you -18db / 200hz (-6 @ 100 +-12 in the doubling of frequency to 200hz) ?
At low volumes, the 8" X sub may work out better .....
Like you mentioned, you're going to just have to try both your options out and see which works best for you.
5. I'd like to get a mic as well, been looking at the Dayton USB mic PE sells. It would be something to get started with.
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-umm-6-usb-measurement-microphone--390-808
You can DL REW here
http://www.roomeqwizard.com/
-jay
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Mike, with regard to the servo amp being adjustable to 120hz, see Brian's response to a similar question below:
The amplifier is also used for a sealed version which has an upper limit of 120hz limit by servo operation. The OB physical design can extend a bit higher (Danny can answer that). The actual LPF circuit itself has 200hz extension (12db/oct). That is also why Danny can use OB sub up to 200hz for super V. On the decal, the 80hz point is correct. So for OB operation, the xover knob between 80hz and 120hz is actually 80hz to 200hz.
I know this can be a bit confusing. But it is a bit more difficult for us to have too many versions of same amp with one for each driver type.
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I realize there won't be any issue integrating Danny's OB subs and amps with the Wedges when I can afford to build them.
I was including the A370PEQ amp as a comparison with my VR-S1 where the dial on the A370PEQ goes up to 120Hz and the dial on the VR-S1 goes up to 100Hz. My thinking was that that might be close enough for the VR-S1 to work. But based on Brian's comment the OB version of the A370PEQ maxes out at 200Hz (even though the dial reads 120HZ. In other words, what is written on the dial (120Hz) is not correct for the OB version).
This leads me to think the VR-S1 will not work so well with the Wedges. If I understand the math and concepts correctly, it looks like they will cross around 175Hz with each one around -10dB. Since they are supposed to cross when both are -6dB it looks like using this combination will result in 4 dB dip around 175Hz.
But then again, I could be totally misunderstanding things. Trial and error it shall be.
Oh well, back to the garage to finish wiring up the second speaker (had to stop and get a little work done :lol:)
Mike
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Mike, with regard to the servo amp being adjustable to 120hz, see Brian's response to a similar question below:
Thanks. I incorporated this into my response above
Mike
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Mike,
It is much easier to integrate the sub to the Wedges if you use something like the Parts Express UMM-6 USB mic with REW. It will show directly what the adjustments are doing. Got mine on sale for $68 and REW5 is free for running on a PC.
Just a thought.
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Mike,
It is much easier to integrate the sub to the Wedges if you use something like the Parts Express UMM-6 USB mic with REW. It will show directly what the adjustments are doing. Got mine on sale for $68 and REW5 is free for running on a PC.
Just a thought.
Something like this is definitely on my to get and learn how to use list. Getting isn't the hard part. Learning how to use is. I have skimmed the REW site and a little of the tutorials and so far most of it is Greek to me.
Mike
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They're Done!! :hyper:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106832)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106833)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106834)
Now it's time to hook them up and do a little listening. I'm going to start off with the VR-S1 sub.
Mike
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Mike-
To echo others, that veneer looks great. Nice job.
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They're Done!! :hyper:
Now it's time to hook them up and do a little listening. I'm going to start off with the VR-S1 sub.
Mike
Well?????????? Hanging by a thread here!! (as it were....)
Dave
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Ask and ye shall receive:
Here they are set up any playing
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106911)
Important caveat: I do not currently have base speakers that match really well or do justice to the Wedges. Of the subs I have available for use in this system the 8” ported X-Sub works the best. As nice as this little sub is, the bass is still thick and slow compared to the openness and articulate nature of the Wedges. With this in mind, the comments that follow are not meant to refer to low frequency performance, but only to the Wedges themselves
Now that I’ve had a chance to listen to the Wedges for a few of hours I can discuss initial impressions. My first impression was :banana piano: WOW!!! :dance:
Danny’s description of something sounding incredible is dead on to an understatement. The sound was huge. Center images didn’t so much sound like they were coming from between the two speakers as from all around and above them. Almost like the entire front wall became one big speaker. While the sound was huge it wasn’t overpowering. It had an almost airy spacious quality with voices especially seeming to be floating between the speakers.
However, this does not mean everything is mashed together. There is very distinct separation between notes, voices, instruments and location. When a drummer plays a solo and runs around his set the sound pans from right to left with him. Also, sounds that are supposed to be off to one side stay pinned to that location.
Voices are clear and those that are intended to soar like Barbara Streisand, Jonas Kaufmann, Pavarotti, and the John McDermott soar. Those that are intended to be more earthy and distinct like Holly Cole, Rebecca Pidgeon, Ray Charles, Kenny Rogers and Willie Nelson shine in their distinctiveness.
Hard and punchy is hard and punchy yet clean. Fleetwood Mac, Steppenwolf, and Jethro Tull all sound exceptional.
Visually, they fit very nicely into my 11’x13’x8’ (1,144 cubic feet) room. But can they play loud? Well, I have them connected to a Jolida JD-801A (70WPC) and at my listening position (10ft) I had the SPL meter up to 100.5dB before I had to back off because I couldn’t stand it anymore. Now I can hear some of you saying that’s all fine and dandy but a 1,100ft3 room isn’t very big so it’s not really much of a test and you’d be correct. As I’m typing this I’m listening to Vivaldi’s Four Seasons at a very enjoyable volume. This might not mean much except that I am in my office which is downstairs and at the other end of the house from the Wedges. I have no doubt they would easily fill my 5,000+ ft3 living room should I put them there. However, I learned my lesson with the N3’s. I’ll not give my wife a chance to get her hands on the Wedges.
This is very early on as these speakers only have 4 or 5 hours on them. Since I used platinum by-pass caps they have a long way to go before they are broken in and will improve with time.
As great as the N3’s are, I no longer begrudge my wife’s usurpation of them. The LGK Wedge is a large performer in a small package. Once I get a pair of 12” OB H-Frames under them the package will be complete.
Mike
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Very nice review Mike. Your LGK wedges look great! :thumb:
I am an N3 owner as well. I know we are talking an OB speaker vs. transmission line; but once you have a chance to evaluate further, a comparison of the 2 would be appreciated.
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Thanks for the update Mike. I am really wanting to finish the finish on my Wedges but I may have to put them together when I get back home this week. I am really anxious to hear them but I know if I put them together before finishing them they will likely never get a clear coat. My room is somewhat dark so it won't matter, that is today's massive rationalization. :lol:
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Thanks for the update Mike. I am really wanting to finish the finish on my Wedges but I may have to put them together when I get back home this week. I am really anxious to hear them but I know if I put them together before finishing them they will likely never get a clear coat. My room is somewhat dark so it won't matter, that is today's massive rationalization. :lol:
I know exactly what you mean. My LGK1.0's are still sitting on my desk naked as the day Ben cut out the pieces :lol:
Mike
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Nice write up Mike. So glad you are enjoying them :thumb:
This next lbit is for "brother love" too....
When I was reading Mikes description of the Wedgies sound characteristics it reminded me of when I switched from my N3TL's to the OB7's. Now, I realize the Wedgies would be considered a step (steps?) up from the OB series speakers, but I noticed very similar things. The transparency, the air/openess, more accurate imaging and motion, and overall depth it all really stood out . I get comments all the time about how amazed people are as to how the sound is coming from the entire front AREA (not wall) of the room, not from 2 speakers . That sound is both wide and tall as well. Being Mke described such similar observation I'd say many of the traits are traits of OB designs, probably just implemented better with the Wedgies.
After reading Danny's comments earlier in the thread saying he felt the Wedgies were getting close to the performance of the Super 7's/LSX's (not an exact quote but it was something like that) I can only imagine how great they really sound Mike, enjoy
I'd love to get the chance to hear the Wedgies one day and compare
BTW, that veneer looks even better with the contrast of the drivers , awsome
-jay
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Now, I realize the Wedgies would be considered a step (steps?) up from the OB series speakers,
Why would the Wedgies be a step up from the OB series???
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Why would the Wedgies be a step up from the OB series???
Well having the Neo3 OB in a waveguide is going to be a step up, I'd imagine that would add another dimension to the Neo3 which I already absolutely love. I wish there was a way to cut a waveguide to the correct depth for timing and have it fit in the cutout/recess for the standard Neo3 facepalte in my OB7's 1.5" baffle
Here is the comment from page 1 Danny made which I refered to above
The sound quality from this little combo is one of the best sounding speakers I have ever tested. Mid-range is incredible. And from 200Hz and up just crazy good across the board. I think the only speakers I'd put ahead of it would be the Super-7's from Serenity Acoustics and the LSX open baffle line sources that I designed for Mockingbird Audio. These things are that good. And a little over 95db sensitivity. :thumb:
From reading those comments, I'd assume they'd be a step up assuming one has the subs or is willing to build/buy them , that will play up to 200hz or so..
-jay
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Very nice review Mike. Your LGK wedges look great! :thumb:
I am an N3 owner as well. I know we are talking an OB speaker vs. transmission line; but once you have a chance to evaluate further, a comparison of the 2 would be appreciated.
Based on what I hear now I would prefer the Wedges over the N3TL's due to the sound stage and character I described above. Then again, if my room was such that I couldn't use OB speakers I would want the N3TL's. However, I can't make a full comparison until I get the proper bass units under the Wedges.
Even then I have a feeling it is going to come down to application. If you can use OB's go with the Wedges, if not go with the N3TL's.
Jay,
If you get in the Tulsa area stop on by for a listen.
Now for the next big question for Danny ... What about a center channel to go with the wedges?
Mike
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Why would the Wedgies be a step up from the OB series???
I have built the top section of the OB5 with an Augie for bass as well as the V1, I felt the V1 was a better speaker all around (of course the servo subs helped with that), I didn't notice a terrible drop off moving from the Neo3 to the tweeter of the coax, but the the supporting equipment all changed in that timeframe as well. The V1 is also fully open baffle whereas the OB5 (with the Augie) was only OB up to 2k Hz or so, that likely played a role in my preference. I am hoping that the Wedge is better yet but the V1 is a fun speaker and will be a tough act to follow.
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I regularly read the forum, but never write. The wedges have moved me to chime in, however.
When the wedges became available I immediately ordered and when they arrived built them nude (unfinished); since I have had them playing on and off. They've come on song, and they are nothing short of spectacular. I've built the V2s and put together a couple sealed servo subs in the past, all of which gave me a taste of the good stuff, but the wedges feel like a true destination.
If you are at all considering putting a pair together, all I can say is: Stop considering, and do it! I can't stop listening -- I expect you will have the same experience.
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I regularly read the forum, but never write. The wedges have moved me to chime in, however.
When the wedges became available I immediately ordered and when they arrived built them nude (unfinished); since I have had them playing on and off. They've come on song, and they are nothing short of spectacular. I've built the V2s and put together a couple sealed servo subs in the past, all of which gave me a taste of the good stuff, but the wedges feel like a true destination.
If you are at all considering putting a pair together, all I can say is: Stop considering, and do it! I can't stop listening -- I expect you will have the same experience.
Wow. That's a serious endorsement.
Tell us more, show some pics, etc. Specifically, how is the sound different from the V2's? Are you using a servo sub for bass?
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I regularly read the forum, but never write. The wedges have moved me to chime in, however.
When the wedges became available I immediately ordered and when they arrived built them nude (unfinished); since I have had them playing on and off. They've come on song, and they are nothing short of spectacular. I've built the V2s and put together a couple sealed servo subs in the past, all of which gave me a taste of the good stuff, but the wedges feel like a true destination.
If you are at all considering putting a pair together, all I can say is: Stop considering, and do it! I can't stop listening -- I expect you will have the same experience.
This is some encouragement to plow through some other projects I'm working on, to get there....
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Definitely fair to ask for more details:
I'm not one much for hyperbole, so I'll just tell you that I played music 5-6 nights a week for about a decade before health issues arose a few years ago. I'm pretty synesthesic, and haven't really been able to enjoy listening to music since because it hasn't caused anything like the experience I remembered and carried in my head. The V2s convinced me that I was definitely an open baffle guy, sounds hung nicely in space, but I kept tinkering with them too much to relax and enjoy music again.
I built the wedges and plunked them down on fern stands, filling in the bottom end with one sealed servo sub. That was it, and there's joy in music again. They bring to bear all the little cues music contains, layers and layers. Instruments are placed in and take up space; it's that sense of volume (filled space) that finally feels right to me. Voices sound as though they are shaped by mouths. And I haven't fussed with placement -- they're just well out into the room and set somewhat wider than I might otherwise think to try.
I will beg pardon and pass on sharing a photo -- the other examples here are beautiful and mine are plain mdf. I haven't even fastened the top brace or tied down the crossover properly as I've yet to decide how I want to go about finishing them. I look forward to adding a pair of open baffle subs and to hearing a lot of great music.
And I might get around to putting a finish on them, too....
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I have 2 questions :)
1. I have Super Vs. Love the bottom but am curious about a better mid range/top end. Could I use the bass section of them with the wedges? My plan might be to remove the side panels of the Super V and everything above the subs, creating a rectangular box. Lay that box on its side (2 subs side by side) and use it as a stand for the wedges. Thoughts?
2. If the above happens, I plan to mount the top end coaxial of the Super V on a small flat base (but use the tops of the original side panels and the bow tie panels) and use them without a sub as big bookshelf/computer speakers. How deep could they play if the crossover was reworked?
Would it be better to place the coaxs in a sealed/ported box with a new network. How deep could the play then?
Thoughts?
I want Wedges but don't want to give up anything in the bottom end, so this seems like the only option.
Thanks,
Steve.
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Definitely fair to ask for more details:
I'm not one much for hyperbole, so I'll just tell you that I played music 5-6 nights a week for about a decade before health issues arose a few years ago. I'm pretty synesthesic, and haven't really been able to enjoy listening to music since because it hasn't caused anything like the experience I remembered and carried in my head. The V2s convinced me that I was definitely an open baffle guy, sounds hung nicely in space, but I kept tinkering with them too much to relax and enjoy music again.
I built the wedges and plunked them down on fern stands, filling in the bottom end with one sealed servo sub. That was it, and there's joy in music again. They bring to bear all the little cues music contains, layers and layers. Instruments are placed in and take up space; it's that sense of volume (filled space) that finally feels right to me. Voices sound as though they are shaped by mouths. And I haven't fussed with placement -- they're just well out into the room and set somewhat wider than I might otherwise think to try.
I will beg pardon and pass on sharing a photo -- the other examples here are beautiful and mine are plain mdf. I haven't even fastened the top brace or tied down the crossover properly as I've yet to decide how I want to go about finishing them. I look forward to adding a pair of open baffle subs and to hearing a lot of great music.
And I might get around to putting a finish on them, too....
Thanks for details. This is very helpful.
One more thing -- Can those little drivers produce some killer dynamics? How do the dynamics compare to the V2?
-
I have 2 questions :)
1. I have Super Vs. Love the bottom but am curious about a better mid range/top end. Could I use the bass section of them with the wedges? My plan might be to remove the side panels of the Super V and everything above the subs, creating a rectangular box. Lay that box on its side (2 subs side by side) and use it as a stand for the wedges. Thoughts?
2. If the above happens, I plan to mount the top end coaxial of the Super V on a small flat base (but use the tops of the original side panels and the bow tie panels) and use them without a sub as big bookshelf/computer speakers. How deep could they play if the crossover was reworked?
Would it be better to place the coaxs in a sealed/ported box with a new network. How deep could the play then?
Thoughts?
I want Wedges but don't want to give up anything in the bottom end, so this seems like the only option.
Thanks,
Steve.
That is still quite a bit of demand for Super-V's. You could sell them and build new H frame subs, or sell them minus the woofers and amps. Then they can buy new woofers and amps and you can use yours in a new set of H frames.
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Thanks Danny, I might list them for sale :)
Any thoughts on this?
If the above happens, I plan to mount the top end coaxial of the Super V on a small flat base (but use the tops of the original side panels and the bow tie panels) and use them without a sub as big bookshelf/computer speakers. How deep could they play if the crossover was reworked?
Would it be better to place the coaxs in a sealed/ported box with a new network. How deep could the play then?
-
Thanks Danny, I might list them for sale :)
Any thoughts on this?
If the above happens, I plan to mount the top end coaxial of the Super V on a small flat base (but use the tops of the original side panels and the bow tie panels) and use them without a sub as big bookshelf/computer speakers. How deep could they play if the crossover was reworked?
Would it be better to place the coaxs in a sealed/ported box with a new network. How deep could the play then?
Optimal ported box is .37 cubic feet of air space and they will play to a -3db of 118Hz.
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Cool thanks for the info :)
Do you think that building H frames (like the Super V) and using them as stands is the best way to fill in the bottom of the wedges?
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Cool thanks for the info :)
Do you think that building H frames (like the Super V) and using them as stands is the best way to fill in the bottom of the wedges?
That would work great.
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Thanks for details. This is very helpful.
One more thing -- Can those little drivers produce some killer dynamics? How do the dynamics compare to the V2?
[/quote]
The dynamics have been great with the wedges. I hate to single any one thing out of the flow and don't want to ding the V2s in any way (as they sound great!), but the wedges feel more like music to me. I just spun the finale of Shostavich 5 with your question in mind, and feel no lack of dynamics at all :D.
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I let my Wedgies burn in for a few days while building a stand that directly mounts on my sub. Really didn't do
much listening during that time so I was ready to start some serious listening to the Wedgies mounted on the sub.
Started listening and they just didn't sound like they did at first. They were muddy sounding and that incredible
soundstage was gone. I fussed with the sub amp setting and the position for a couple days. But nothing was working.
During the last position change I noticed quite a bit of vibration on the Wedgie cabinet. Maybe they don't like sitting directly
on the sub, so I put them back on the separate stands and magic! They came back to life.
The room became immersed in clean detailed sound again. I noticed the other 2 great reviews are also stand mounted so
maybe that is the way to go. Looking forward to hear other peoples results.
I think Dannys narrow 8" OB servo sub would look great beside Wedgies on nice stands.
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Yeah, I think stand mounting them and putting the H frame servo subs right next to them is the way to go.
I am also looking forward to the full floor standing version with nine of the LGK drivers in a line below the MMTMM.
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Thanks for details. This is very helpful.
One more thing -- Can those little drivers produce some killer dynamics? How do the dynamics compare to the V2?
The dynamics have been great with the wedges. I hate to single any one thing out of the flow and don't want to ding the V2s in any way (as they sound great!), but the wedges feel more like music to me. I just spun the finale of Shostavich 5 with your question in mind, and feel no lack of dynamics at all :D.
Thanks again for your response.
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Danny -- will you eventually provide an option for finished Wedgies? Some of us are quite challenged in the DIY department.
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Danny -- will you eventually provide an option for finished Wedgies? Some of us are quite challenged in the DIY department.
I bet something can be worked out. I am not going to start veneering and finishing cabinets though.
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I bet something can be worked out. I am not going to start veneering and finishing cabinets though.
That's expected, but I believe you know some people who finish cabinets quite well... 8)
Perhaps another option would be to build out the cabinet and crossover, but finishing is left to the customer.
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That's expected, but I believe you know some people who finish cabinets quite well... 8)
Perhaps another option would be to build out the cabinet and crossover, but finishing is left to the customer.
The kit comes with the flat pack cabinet. You just have to glue it up and finish it to your choosing.
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Danny -- will you eventually provide an option for finished Wedgies? Some of us are quite challenged in the DIY department.
Shoot Mike (mlundy57) a PM. I beliee he's been thinking of doing some builds for people looking for the service
-jay
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I am also looking forward to the full floor standing version with nine of the LGK drivers in a line below the MMTMM.
Ditto :thumb:
With the OB running right down to the floor, how far off to the side would the H-frames need to be or is that not a huge concern ? Was curious if having the say 30" tall H-frame on one side with the large wing on the other would adverselly effect thje lower drivers
-jay
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Ditto :thumb:
With the OB running right down to the floor, how far off to the side would the H-frames need to be or is that not a huge concern ? Was curious if having the say 30" tall H-frame on one side with the large wing on the other would adverselly effect thje lower drivers
-jay
One to two feet away will work great.
It will not adversely effect the lower drivers.
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Can the Wedgies be used as fronts for an HT system? Any concerns about overpowering them?
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Can the Wedgies be used as fronts for an HT system? Any concerns about overpowering them?
Yes they can. If the bottom end is filtered then power handling is not an issue.
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I may be persuaded to offer finished crossovers and finished cabinets (not built but painted). No veneer - I'm strictly paint.
Here are some examples of my work...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=107116)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=107117)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=107118)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=107119)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=107120)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=107121)
Skiing Ninja
I bet something can be worked out. I am not going to start veneering and finishing cabinets though.
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A little progress, one crossover complete, one to wire. I decided to sand my speakers again, I hope I haven't made a mistake by sanding the topcoat on this two part paint. I hope to repaint tomorrow.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=107164)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=107165)
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I finished my Wedges last night. I was able to get the paint looking pretty good after figuring out that you had to lay the final top coat on as heavy as possible without running.
One thing I noticed when installing the drivers, the baffle I dry fit prior to painting did not have a chipping issue around the edge of the driver recess, the baffle I did not dry fit did. I will have a bit of touch up to the one baffle. My recommendation is to dry fit a driver into each recess prior to painting, the tolerances are very tight on this baffle. I had a few other issues that I could have easily avoided, such as not letting hot solder fall on your paint, yes, both speakers :duh:. They look good overall, but have several imperfections, I will probably have the next project painted.
I let them play for about an hour before sitting down and listening. I was only able to listen to two songs, but I realized while I was sitting there I had a big grin across my face, more later.
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Looking forward to your review ebag4.
Also, I am wondering if you powered the wedges with your Bottlehead Stereomour.
Ben
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Congrats Ed :beer:
Also looking forward to hearing more
-jay
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Good deal Ed. You have the good subs you can run with the Wedges as well don't you?
How do the Wedges compare to other OB speakers? The Wedges are only the second OB speakers I have ever heard and the first ones I have been able to listen to for more than 15 minutes.
Mike
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Thanks guys, I haven't had time for much listening yet but plan to set some time aside this weekend. I am getting about 5 hrs a day on them so buy Saturday I should have 30 hrs or so. So far they sound great, too early to get into any details, however filling my small room with 3.5 watts (yes Ben, the Stereomour) has not been an issue. They don't seem to go quite as loud as the the V1s but the difference isn't great (going from memory, I listened to the V1s 2 days ago). Here are a few pics, they are more red, almost maroon, compared to the orange tinge in the pics. Stands are temporary until I decide what I want to do for a base, right now I think they will remain separated from the bass section, no issues integrating the bass even with just a cursory setting. Integration can only improve with careful setup.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=107288)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=107289)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=107290)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=107291)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=107292)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=107294)
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Nicely done Ed, they look really nice. Really looking forward to your comparisons between your V1s and the Wedges.
Isn't it amazing what you can do with cheap concrete blocks? Someone needs to start a thread on "what have you used concrete blocks for"
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Cool pics Ed 8)
Love seeing that open Neo3 !
-jay
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Ed, those look great!!
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Those look very interesting and attractive. Please give us a review and let us know what you think.
I really like the simplicity of design and finish..
Very nice...!
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Very Nice Ed!
They look fantastic... :thumb:
Am also looking forward to a comparison to your Vs
Perry
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Danny - I am not a big fan of subs in music systems, although I have never heard a servo sub, I would be
quite happy with the bass from my X-statics combined with the Wedgies. How would your M series drivers
match up with the Wedgies in a cabinet like your best speaker stand ever?
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Hi Ed,
nice job, I like the color anything more or less red is good for me.
At one time you were looking for a pair of speakers for a family member,
did you find anything?
Guy 13
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Danny - I am not a big fan of subs in music systems, although I have never heard a servo sub, I would be
quite happy with the bass from my X-statics combined with the Wedgies. How would your M series drivers
match up with the Wedgies in a cabinet like your best speaker stand ever?
No problem.
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I built Danny's "sandbox" servo sub and I find the sound quality to be fantastic. Maybe you can get a demo from a local AC member.
Danny - I am not a big fan of subs in music systems, although I have never heard a servo sub, I would be
quite happy with the bass from my X-statics combined with the Wedgies. How would your M series drivers
match up with the Wedgies in a cabinet like your best speaker stand ever?
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Nicely done Ed, they look really nice. Really looking forward to your comparisons between your V1s and the Wedges.
Isn't it amazing what you can do with cheap concrete blocks? Someone needs to start a thread on "what have you used concrete blocks for"
Cool pics Ed 8)
Love seeing that open Neo3 !
-jay
Ed, those look great!!
Very Nice Ed!
They look fantastic... :thumb:
Am also looking forward to a comparison to your Vs
Perry
Hi Ed,
nice job, I like the color anything more or less red is good for me.
At one time you were looking for a pair of speakers for a family member,
did you find anything?
Guy 13
Thanks guys, other than the touchups I am going to have to do to the left speaker around the LGKs I am pretty happy with the way they turned out.
I have still only had time to listen to a handful of songs. I was listening to Neil Young Live at Massey Hall last night, Helpless was playing; I was transported to Massey Hall, it was a bit eerie, a real "you are there" moment. I hope to hear a lot more of that type of sound from these. I have had speakers that have great soundstage and imaging, but I don't recall ever getting to that level of realism, very cool. :thumb:
BTW Guy13, I ended up setting my son up with a set of PSB Alphas and a sub, it turned out he doesn't have room for the Vs anyway.
Best,
Ed
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Yeah, that tweeter is freaking phenomenal.
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Yeah, that tweeter is freaking phenomenal.
I agree, this is what i have been pushing for since LSAF in 13. And putting so much of my time in to getting the neo 3 with these instead of a less expensive dome tweeter.
JP
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Jon, thank you for your efforts leading to this speaker, they paid off, Danny has a winner..... I was listening to Steve Miller Fly Like an Eagle, total immersion into the music, it was as if the music was coming from nothing, difficult to explain. My wife walked by, I called her in to sit in my chair, she resisted, she has no interest in this stuff. She relented, I played the same track, she started grinning, by the end she had a big smile on her face, I asked her where the music was coming from, she said, everywhere. When I finally got my chair back :lol: I moved from Steve Miller to Steely Dan Deacon Blues, same thing, amazing soundstage, enveloped by the music.
I have never heard anything quite like this. It is still very early in the breakin of these speakers but they are really impressing me so far.
With regard to volume, I am driving them with 3.5 watts of Bottlehead 2A3 goodness high passed at about 150 Hz. In my small room they effortlessly go louder than I would listen typically and as loud I would go when really jamming. I am looking forward to more listening.
I hope this doesn't come off as over the top, it is what I am hearing.
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My wife walked by, I called her in to sit in my chair, she resisted, she has no interest in this stuff. She relented, I played the same track, she started grinning, by the end she had a big smile on her face, I asked her where the music was coming from, she said, everywhere.
Sounds like another listening chair might be in order , :thumb:
I have never heard anything quite like this. It is still very early in the breakin of these speakers but they are really impressing me so far.
Good stuff 8)
Gota love the "Mercury Blues", I love crankin' that one up
-jay
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Jon, thank you for your efforts leading to this speaker, they paid off, Danny has a winner..... I was listening to Steve Miller Fly Like an Eagle, total immersion in the music, it was as if the music was coming from nothing, difficult to explain. My wife walked by, I called her in to sit in my chair, she resisted, she has no interest in this stuff. She relented, I played the same track, she started grinning, by the end she had a big smile on her face, I asked her where the music was coming from, she said, everywhere. When I finally got my chair back :lol: I moved from Steve Miller to Steely Dan Deacon Blues, same thing, amazing soundstage, enveloped by the music.
I have never heard anything quite like this. It is still very early in the breakin of these speakers but they are really impressing me so far.
With regard to volume, I am driving them with 3.5 watts of Bottlehead 2A3 goodness high passed at about 150 Hz. In my small room they effortlessly go louder than I would listen typically and as loud I would go when really jamming. I am looking forward to more listening.
I hope this doesn't come off as over the top, it is what I am hearing.
Ed,
I agree, hat's off to everybody involved in the development of these speakers Danny, Ben and anybody else I forgot to mention.
I know what you mean about the sound. It is hard to describe but really easy to listen to and enjoy.
While a lot of folks jump to the "how loud can they play" end of the spectrum. For me, how they perform at moderate to low volume is the primary concern. A lot of my listening is later at night so loud is out of the question. I am happy to report that the Wedges handle low volume levels very well also.
Mike
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While a lot of folks jump to the "how loud can they play" end of the spectrum.
The primary reason I mention this was that a few had questioned the dynamics of the LGK drivers and their ability to go loud. In my space this is definitely not a concern.
Best,
Ed
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Ed,
Thanks so much for your efforts putting those together and sharing your impressions with the rest of us humble folk. I for one am also very interested in how these compare to the upper range of your V1's. I've got the Super V's and am strongly considering pairing these with servo's for future audio bliss (and easier WAF and moving factor). From your initial impressions it sounds like these are giving you more detail in the world of open baffle goodness than the V's?
Cheers,
Brandon
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I am really working on the ideal bottom end solution for these. Hold tight, this might get really good.
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I am really working on the ideal bottom end solution for these. Hold tight, this might get really good.
OK, holding
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Ed,
I agree, hat's off to everybody involved in the development of these speakers Danny, Ben and anybody else I forgot to mention.
I know what you mean about the sound. It is hard to describe but really easy to listen to and enjoy.
While a lot of folks jump to the "how loud can they play" end of the spectrum. For me, how they perform at moderate to low volume is the primary concern. A lot of my listening is later at night so loud is out of the question. I am happy to report that the Wedges handle low volume levels very well also.
Mike
There are some "advanced" audiophiles who argue that the quieter a speaker will play without losing any of the music---in other words, a lower resolution floor---the better the speaker is. Dynamic drivers (cones) have poorer mass to motor ratios than ESL's, for instance, and have a harder time "keeping up" with the music. Magnetic-Planars, though sharing some of the panel-design advantages with them, also have much higher mass than ESL's (and are also VERY inefficient). Electrostatics have always had that advantage over dynamics and M-P. But with advances in dynamic driver and cross-over design, that gap has narrowed considerably. Then there are those who find that in the same way, more-efficient speakers provide higher-resolution sound than less-efficient speakers. But there are always trade-offs; highly-efficient speakers have traditionally been horns (and also single-cone full-ways), and to get that efficiency you had to accept their common failing, high vowel-coloration. Cup your hands in front of your mouth and talk; presto, horn loudspeaker sound! Along comes a new generation of designers (Danny Richie at the forefront) who have managed to create high-resolution, high-efficiency speakers with low-coloration. You youngins are lucky---you have the rest of your long lives to enjoy the fruits of their labors!
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I had posted that I built a stand that mounted directly to my 15" Hawthorne Augies for the Wedgies.
The Wedgies didn't like the vibration and went back to the floor stands. All of the Herbies products I have
tried are well worth it, so I bought some Fat Dots and received them yesterday. The Wedgies are now back
sitting directly on the Augies and they sound incredible! Granted the flat panel Augies may be more of a
vibration extreme than a H-frame, I now would have no reservations about using a sub for a stand with the Wedgies.
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Ed,
I agree, hat's off to everybody involved in the development of these speakers Danny, Ben and anybody else I forgot to mention.
I know what you mean about the sound. It is hard to describe but really easy to listen to and enjoy.
While a lot of folks jump to the "how loud can they play" end of the spectrum. For me, how they perform at moderate to low volume is the primary concern. A lot of my listening is later at night so loud is out of the question. I am happy to report that the Wedges handle low volume levels very well also.
Mike
Mike, thought I'd pass this along
I too listen a lot late nigh at pretty quiet listening volumes. One of the things I've really come to like about my OB7's is how great thsy perform at low volumes, I love that somehow they still seem to provide great dynamics and imaging at these lower SPL's.
What I thought you might be interrested in is since I have added the H-frame , I haven't had any "comlaints" from my sister or neice who live upstairs. The OB servo subs also seem to work great at low volumes, the bass is well defined and even punchy at low volumes but for some reason it doesn't seem to effect the rest of the house. Quite often I'd have to turn my old sub off when listening late night, with the H-frame I keep waiting for someone to say something but nada :)
I would have actually thought that being OB, that I may have gotten the reverse effect in the house but that doesn't seem to be the case. I don't know if others have noticed the same thing , but it has really worked out well here
Keith, that is good info regarding the Herbies Fat Dots, I'm sure it relieves some questions after your first attempt at placing the Wedgies on the sub
-jay
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While I'm a ways off building my own LGKOB, I had been looking at the Peerless SLS 830667 used as a subwoofer. It sounds to be of an accuracy that isn't paralleled by much that's remotely near it's price point. It would require mild slope at around 150hz inline. Then a Crown class D to power it would probably be as good as you can get without breaking the bank for something silly expensive that has the same amount of feedback. Well, of course, four of the subs might be necessary, but maybe only two. I don't know about matching.
In order to add it to the system I would have some small wires coming off the main speaker output of the amplifier to a couple of resistors that are inline with them, that then go into RCA plugs. Those go into the Crown. I've done this multiple times and it's been one of the better sounding options. What you don't get is any sort of attenuation on the LGKOB, which you may or may not need?
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I am really working on the ideal bottom end solution for these. Hold tight, this might get really good.
Excellent project! Is it feasible to use one 8, 10 or 12 inch driver to provide midbass slam and use 2 more drivers all in the same cabinet (H-open baffle all three powered by servo amp)? This way, you would have
a true full range system with the ultimate in imaging, soundstaging, detail and impact in a relatively small footprint!
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Excellent project! Is it feasible to use one 8, 10 or 12 inch driver to provide midbass slam and use 2 more drivers all in the same cabinet (H-open baffle all three powered by servo amp)? This way, you would have
a true full range system with the ultimate in imaging, soundstaging, detail and impact in a relatively small footprint!
Welcome to AC.
No need for an in between driver. I am working on a matching wedge to sit right under it that will have three 8" servo subs. It will have plenty of slam and be full range.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=107623)
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Ntell411
ultimate in imaging, sound-staging, detail and impact
"IMPACT" with out it I am bored in a couple of weeks. :|
Danny Richie I am working on a matching wedge to sit right under it that will have three 8" servo subs. It will have plenty of slam and be full range.
I've been holding back, waiting for the bass solution. Ed, Keith, Mike and the guys are pioneers. you guys rock for getting the jump on this build. :thumb:
I can't wait to see the full range version. I just wonder if it will push back Danny's "X-Otica" development? I was thinking that might be my next build? I am still impressed at my long term enjoyment with the X-Series OB loudspeakers at my Son's house. I really enjoy the mid / upper bass "dynamic" of six inch drivers.
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"IMPACT" with out it I am bored in a couple of weeks. :|
You won't be bored.
I just wonder if it will push back Danny's "X-Otica" development?
Nope, I'm just waiting on a test cabinet from Ben, and then it moves to the next phase.
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Completed crossovers going out with a kit today...
(http://gr-research.com/pics/LGKcrossover1.jpg)
(http://gr-research.com/pics/LGKcrossover2.jpg)
(http://gr-research.com/pics/LGKcrossover3.jpg)
The boards are coated with the DuraTex that we now offer.
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Those look really good Danny, nice layout.
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To Chuck that just called about this kit... I tried calling you right back but could not get through to you on the number you gave me. Maybe I jotted it down wrong. And you didn't pop up on my caller ID because I was on the other line. Call me back and I'll get you fixed up man.
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Excellent project! Is it feasible to use one 8, 10 or 12 inch driver to provide midbass slam and use 2 more drivers all in the same cabinet (H-open baffle all three powered by servo amp)? This way, you would have
a true full range system with the ultimate in imaging, soundstaging, detail and impact in a relatively small footprint!
Nope.
The servo feedback circuit puts some simple restrictions on woofer hookup.
- drive side - woofers must be the matched and connected in parallel. This puts a practical limit of 3 drivers per amp.
- servo side - woofers must be matched and connected in series.
Even with the new compact stereo amp, the woofers must be matched between the two channels.
To maximize efficiency the amps shared power supply uses the positive rail to drive one amp and the negative rail to drive the other. An 8" on one channel and a 12" on the other would unbalance and stress the common power supply. Same unmatched situation for an OB and sealed combination.
Shawn
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This new design looks incredibly intriguing. I'm currently enjoying a pair of N3 towers with a 12" sand-box servo sub. It sounds great to my ears but I'm definitely intrigued by a box-less, high-efficiency alternative which can hopefully be placed closer to the walls than the OB7s.
A couple of questions which I couldn't find covered elsewhere...
* What are the minimum and ideal distances from the front/side walls?
* Would it be very detrimental to the sound if I covered the open sides with grill cloth? (WAF bargaining strategy)
Thanks to everyone who has collaborated on this thread and shared your build process and impressions. It's been a pleasure to watch this design evolve.
I think I may have found my next project :thumb:
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* What are the minimum and ideal distances from the front/side walls?
Just like any open baffle speaker, they need to at least be 3 feet out from the wall and more is better.
* Would it be very detrimental to the sound if I covered the open sides with grill cloth? (WAF bargaining strategy)
The grill cloth will have no effect, but be careful. A heavy structural frame cane cause some issues.
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I thought I would give a brief update.
I have about 140hrs on the Wedges as of Sunday night. I have been listening to them off and on throughout this period. I spent quite a bit of time with them on Saturday. I love the way the Wedges reproduce music, the soundstage and imaging are recreated in a way I have not heard previously. I am enjoying my live albums which seem to include additional information now.
I have been playing with toe in and tweaking the bass amps (by ear for now), the Wedges and the V1 servo subs make an outstanding musical pairing.
I know some of you are wanting comparisons to the V1s, I have not played the V1s since I powered up the Wedges. I will likely wait until I have 200 hrs on the Wedges and then I will attempt some comparisons, possibly next weekend.
Suffice it to say I am loving the Wedges, I have a stand in the works (only on paper so far), as of right now I will probably be keeping the bass section and the Wedges separate.
More later.
Best,
Ed
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Danny, these speakers are fantastic. It is amazing how the Wedge takes you to the event . They paint a very vivid picture. Great speaker. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Thanks,
Ed
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Ok Ed.... Your comments are teasing me. You mentioned a few days back the wedges " seem to be adding more information". Now you're lauding the "staging" more or less. What do you think about resolution, are they more detailed, can you hear into the instruments and voice ? Separation ? You have a small room with great diffusion, so it begs to ask, how resolved are they at lower SPLs <70 or so ? I love that color you chose, reminds me of the early Chev, Honduras maroon.
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Sorry Dave, not trying to tease. I was listening to Dire Straits "In the gallery", near the end of the song Mark Knopfler really gets on the mic (or so it sounds) and sings "IN THE GALLERY", I nearly jumped out of my chair and said "oh my g.." out loud! That is what prompted me to post. The speakers have great detail, my son commented that they have greater clarity and that they are more articulate than the V1s. I haven't tried to dissect the sound, but I believe the added detail lends to the feeling you are in the audience, these speakers do that better than any speakers I have heard. I will do a better job of letting you guys know what I am hearing in more detail as soon as I can, with comparison to the V1.
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Cool stuff Ed.. I wonder how much of the increased detail you guys are hearing is from the NEO3 tweeter w/platinum caps in the circuit ? Plus, with it being OB, I'm sure that is adding some dimension.
Mike or Danny (you guys have heard the Neo in both configs) , maybe you can comment as to the difference in detail between your Neo3's in the N3's and the OB Neo 3's inthe Wedgies ? Guess it may actually be hard to compare as the 2 different versions are in totally different speaker configs ... :dunno:
-jay
-jay
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This is Danny's best kit ever. This has serious almost unlimited potential. Yes, the Neo 3 on an open baffle will sound more detailed and real than in a box with a cup on the back.....but that is just the beginning. You have 4 low mass 3 inch drivers doing the midrange (1.6 grams of moving mass each). Low distortion low mass drivers equals super detailed sound. Paralleling 4 of them allows more dynamics and lower distortion and allows them to play lower. Having all the midranges on an open baffle gives more open sound. Time aligning the mids to the tweets allows better integration of mid and tweet and so does the fact that he is using 12 db per octave xover on both the mids and tweets so he can just invert the tweeter and get really good phase and time alignment. By having the mids bi-amped and not in a box you lower the distortion in a big way. Your two way box speaker has a lot of pressure inside the box that compresses the sound and also the bass frequencies also distort the midrange. This design is brilliant!!!
But as a perfectionistic tweaker, I always want more. You can improve the speaker by using better baffling, wiring, xover parts, isolation and diffraction control. I would use something like bamboo plywood for the front baffle and make the wing and base at least 1.5 inches thick. Felting around the front opening of the waveguide will give better imaging. Isolating the x-over from the panel will give lower distortion. The Erse coils are good but I am now using 12 gauge Jantzen copper foil in wax coils on my midrange and the difference is really great. Dynamics and detail galore. I like the 16 gauge Jantzen for the tweeter. I am using a Neo 10 and Neo 3 on an open baffle for my speaker but the x-over frequency is about the same as Danny's speaker and so is the slope (basically a similar x-over) so I think the difference would be the same with the Wedgies. What is so cool about an open baffle speaker is that you can change the xover parts and wiring so easily....not so in a box speaker......so the tweaking possibilities are endless.
Taking it to another level would be to tri-amp the system. I am designing a 2 way line level x-over that could be used with the wedgies and many other drivers/speakers. It will have options to use it as a 6, 12, 18 or 24 db per octave xover (12 is what is in the Wedgies). It will use DC coupled fet buffers and use the best caps and resistors money can buy. Shunt regulated power supply powered by 130 watt transformer. No switches or pots in the signal path. This x-over should be the most transparent line level x-over ever developed (in theory, at least). Removing the coil from the midranges (and all the other parts) will give the speaker even more dynamics, purity and transparency. I should have it ready for shipping in about 3-4 months. But even stock the Wedgie must be amazing as its design is light years ahead of most speakers.
Danny, if you feel this last paragraph is "just advertising" and you want me to remove it.....let me know.
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But as a perfectionistic tweaker, I always want more. You can improve the speaker by using better baffling, wiring, xover parts, isolation and diffraction control. I would use something like bamboo plywood for the front baffle and make the wing and base at least 1.5 inches thick.
Making the baffle that thick would likely have a negative effect on the 3" drivers. Even with a 3/4" baffle they need a pretty good sized radius on them or the through hole loads the driver. There is just not a lot of space between the driver and the through hole.
And they just don't have enough moving force to put any energy into the baffle. Especially in an open baffle. They just don't play down low enough to move much to begin with.
Plus the 3/4" baffle is the perfect thickness for the tweeter wave guide.
Felting around the front opening of the waveguide will give better imaging.
Not much area there and the wave guide pretty much kills any surface reflection issues. And putting felt in the wave guide (I tried that) has a negative effect on the response. I don't think there is anything there to gain from it.
Isolating the x-over from the panel will give lower distortion.
If the drivers had any real moving force or transmitted much to the baffle then there could be something there, but they don't. And they the crossover (if mounted right behind the drivers) is not subject to any box pressure changes since there is no box. Not much there to gain, but feel free.
The Erse coils are good but I am now using 12 gauge Jantzen copper foil in wax coils on my midrange and the difference is really great. Dynamics and detail galore. I like the 16 gauge Jantzen for the tweeter.
Actually there is a reason that those inductors are so inexpensive even after shipping from Europe, and with a 5% duty added, brokerage fees, and a dealer mark up from PE. They are made in China with recycled Copper. They are on average only 94 to 95% Copper and the rest is just recycled waste.
It also explains why they sound so bad compared to the Erse inductors that are four 9's pure Copper and made in the USA.
If you want to step up to a foil inductor then the Erse or Alpha Core foil are top notch.
So, I'd stick with the Erse inductors myself.
Taking it to another level would be to tri-amp the system. I am designing a 2 way line level x-over that could be used with the wedgies and many other drivers/speakers. It will have options to use it as a 6, 12, 18 or 24 db per octave xover (12 is what is in the Wedgies). It will use DC coupled fet buffers and use the best caps and resistors money can buy. Shunt regulated power supply powered by 130 watt transformer. No switches or pots in the signal path. This x-over should be the most transparent line level x-over ever developed (in theory, at least). Removing the coil from the midranges (and all the other parts) will give the speaker even more dynamics, purity and transparency. I should have it ready for shipping in about 3-4 months. But even stock the Wedgie must be amazing as its design is light years ahead of most speakers.
I don't think the 3" LGK drivers create a big enough back EMF to have much effect on the tweeter. But feel free to give it a try. Separating the 200Hz and down range to a different amp is a pretty big deal though.
Let me know when you're ready and I'll sell you a kit so you can start messing with it. :green:
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Danny,
I was not suggesting the baffle be thicker....only the base and the wing. I suggested a more dense material (bamboo plywood) for the baffle. One could also try 13 ply birch plywood or maybe solid oak or maple. Three quarter inch MDF is not a "fast" material (it is lossy). I know of no serious high end speaker manufacturers that use three quarter inch MDF baffles.....just not rigid or fast enough. Another thing that could be done to make the baffle more rigid would be to add some material in the back of the baffle around the drivers....and not interfering with the back wave. Like small pieces of 3/4 inch plywood glued on here and there. Even though there is not a woofer making a shaking...he he...the midrange baffle needs to be as rigid and dead as possible.
The person that owns your first pair of Serenity 7 speakers added felt around the waveguide and says it sounds much more focused. The sharp edges on the waveguide will reflect highs.
I don't know if an isolated x-over would sound better with your baffle but my mid/tweet baffle is three thicknesses (2.25 inches) of HDF with green glue and my x-over sounds better behind and below the mid baffle on the stand. It is easy to try.....simply put some bubble wrap under the xover board and see if it makes a difference...if so then Herbies things would be nice to try too.
I know you do not like Jantzen but I have listened to the Jantzen foil coils (wax ones) and they are in another completely different league from the Erse coils that you use (directly comparing the two). Maybe these newer coils from Jantzen (out only a couple of years) are made better than the older ones? All I know is what I hear.
I agree about the non issue of back emf from the mids to the tweet....the reason for tri-amping is to get away from the lossy passive components. When I went from the Erse coil you use to a 14 gauge Jantzen I got more dynamics and clarity......then going to a 12 gauge Jantzen brought even more dynamics and clarity. But looking at the 12 gauge Jantzen.....what I see is a bunch of copper foil in a coil....obviously still choking the sound. So, a line level x-over allows the midranges and tweeter to be driven directly from the amps....no coils, no caps, no resistors. Should sound better as long as the line level xover is great (which, I hope, mine is). If you have a simple speaker level passive x-over using the world's best components (silver duelunds caps, silver duelund chokes, etc.) then most line level x-overs will sound worse (since there are none that are really great). But a great line level x-over could be the cat's meow. We shall see.
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Ric, just let me know when you want to order one of the kits and I'll get one right out to you. And if you think you can make them sound even better then go for it.
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Cool stuff Ed.. I wonder how much of the increased detail you guys are hearing is from the NEO3 tweeter w/platinum caps in the circuit ? Plus, with it being OB, I'm sure that is adding some dimension.
Mike or Danny (you guys have heard the Neo in both configs) , maybe you can comment as to the difference in detail between your Neo3's in the N3's and the OB Neo 3's inthe Wedgies ? Guess it may actually be hard to compare as the 2 different versions are in totally different speaker configs ... :dunno:
-jay
-jay
Jay,
Just got my Wedges hooked back up. I have been using that system to burn in the X-Omni's. Now that they have about 100 hours on them I took them out and put the Wedges back in. Ahhhhh, there's that sound again.
I have a very hard time describing the differences in the tweeter applications, closed back and inside the cabinet of the N3's and open backed with a waveguide in the Wedges. I hear the speakers as a whole and can't separate out the tweeter unless I get really close to a speaker and that ruins the overall effect.
Both my N3's and Wedges have the same crossover components, Erse XQ inductors, Mills resistors and Sonicap capacitors with a platinum by-pass cap on each one so none of the differences are due to crossover component quality. Both use the Neo 3 PDR but in different applications. Four LGK's vs two M130's will have a difference so how much is from the difference in drivers and how much is from the design I can't really say.
As you know the N3's are very clean, clear and detailed. However, in my system the sound stage is pretty much defined by the height of the speakers and how far I have them spread apart. With the Wedges (which are a couple of feet closer together than the N3's) the sound stage is expansive in both height and width with the whole thing being just as clean and even more detailed than the N3's. You can hear the difference in most music, the higher the resolution and lower the dynamic compression of the recording the more evident the difference. Since I listen to primarily classical and jazz I can tell a difference in a lot of my music. It is also evident in some rock recordings like my 24/96 FLAC recording of Fleetwood Mac's "Never Going Back Again". However, with a lot of my redbook rock and pop music I don't hear much difference in detail between the N3's and the Wedges. The expansiveness of the Wedges is constant, no matter what type of music I'm listening to.
One other difference between the two is that the N3's are complete by themselves. You do not need bass units or a subwoofer to fully enjoy the music. Not so with the Wedges. You must have some type of bass unit to fill out the bottom 3+ octaves but then that has never been a secret.
I prefer my N3's to any other speaker I have ever heard except my Wedges even without the OB bass units. I can only imagine how much better the Wedges will sound with appropriate OB bass units.
That's pretty long winded and I'm still not sure I answered your question.
Mike
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No worries about the length of the reply Mike, appreciate the effort. Had a feeling it would be tough to compare just the tweeter config in a totally differnt speaker. The diferences you describe are very similar to what I noticed when I switched from the N3Tl's to the OB7's. However, like Ric mentioned, I imagine with the extemely
lightweight drivers and the OB Neo 3, the differences are even more evident
-jay
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Jay,
Just got my Wedges hooked back up. I have been using that system to burn in the X-Omni's. Now that they have about 100 hours on them I took them out and put the Wedges back in. Ahhhhh, there's that sound again.
I have a very hard time describing the differences in the tweeter applications, closed back and inside the cabinet of the N3's and open backed with a waveguide in the Wedges. I hear the speakers as a whole and can't separate out the tweeter unless I get really close to a speaker and that ruins the overall effect.
Both my N3's and Wedges have the same crossover components, Erse XQ inductors, Mills resistors and Sonicap capacitors with a platinum by-pass cap on each one so none of the differences are due to crossover component quality. Both use the Neo 3 PDR but in different applications. Four LGK's vs two M130's will have a difference so how much is from the difference in drivers and how much is from the design I can't really say.
As you know the N3's are very clean, clear and detailed. However, in my system the sound stage is pretty much defined by the height of the speakers and how far I have them spread apart. With the Wedges (which are a couple of feet closer together than the N3's) the sound stage is expansive in both height and width with the whole thing being just as clean and even more detailed than the N3's. You can hear the difference in most music, the higher the resolution and lower the dynamic compression of the recording the more evident the difference. Since I listen to primarily classical and jazz I can tell a difference in a lot of my music. It is also evident in some rock recordings like my 24/96 FLAC recording of Fleetwood Mac's "Never Going Back Again". However, with a lot of my redbook rock and pop music I don't hear much difference in detail between the N3's and the Wedges. The expansiveness of the Wedges is constant, no matter what type of music I'm listening to.
One other difference between the two is that the N3's are complete by themselves. You do not need bass units or a subwoofer to fully enjoy the music. Not so with the Wedges. You must have some type of bass unit to fill out the bottom 3+ octaves but then that has never been a secret.
I prefer my N3's to any other speaker I have ever heard except my Wedges even without the OB bass units. I can only imagine how much better the Wedges will sound with appropriate OB bass units.
That's pretty long winded and I'm still not sure I answered your question.
Mike
Mike.... Many thanks, always good to hear from a classic guy. Though good jazz and blues recordings can be had, classic is tough and often with older less dynamic Redbook. Room treatment goes along way, but I still am wanting for better staging and separation. Your description goes a long way to say the wedgies glean some finer detail. Thanks for the writeupmsir !
Dave
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Thank you for welcoming me to AC. My question could have been better worded by asking: is it feasible to use the same 3 eight inch woofers in an open baffle configuration with 2 of them handling the lower bass (50hz down) and 1 of them handling the mid and upper bass (50-250hz) all driven by the same servo amp? I would think this would allow better quality lower bass as well as more impact/slam of upper and mid bass. I apologize if this has been answered already.
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Thank you for welcoming me to AC. My question could have been better worded by asking: is it feasible to use the same 3 eight inch woofers in an open baffle configuration with 2 of them handling the lower bass (50hz down) and 1 of them handling the mid and upper bass (50-250hz) all driven by the same servo amp? I would think this would allow better quality lower bass as well as more impact/slam of upper and mid bass. I apologize if this has been answered already.
First of all that is not possible with a single amp.
Secondly, you really don't gain anything by doing that, and you loose 1/3rd of your output capability in the lower ranges. And it's no problem for these woofers to play up to 250Hz and do so with greater speed and resolution than non-servo drivers.
And you already have some flexibility to change damping and extension in the lower range.
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Greetings Danny,
Do you have any plans to offer either of the larger versions (such as the MMMMTMMMM) discussed earlier?
Are you still leaning towards a pair of 8" OB servo subs to fill out the bottom end?
I'm very close to pulling the trigger on these. Shall I just PM you if interested in ordering a kit/flatpack?
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Greetings Danny,
Do you have any plans to offer either of the larger versions (such as the MMMMTMMMM) discussed earlier?
Are you still leaning towards a pair of 8" OB servo subs to fill out the bottom end?
I'm very close to pulling the trigger on these. Shall I just PM you if interested in ordering a kit/flatpack?
There will be a MMTMMMMMMMMMMM version that is a full floor standing model. And I'm thinking that the 12" servo subs will be a good match for them and can be a separate tower placed near them on each side.
A matching lower wedge with three 8" servo subs is coming too. This will be the matching base for the Wedgie.
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A matching lower wedge with three 8" servo subs is coming too. This will be the matching base for the Wedgie.
Danny,
What type of configuration are you thinking about for the three 8" drivers?
Mike
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Danny,
What type of configuration are you thinking about for the three 8" drivers?
Mike
Two on the outside and one on the inside.
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Two on the outside and one on the inside.
Not sure I'm getting the picture. Do you mean two vertical front firing drivers and one side firing?
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Not sure I'm getting the picture. Do you mean two vertical front firing drivers and one side firing?
They are on the sides of the V.
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They are on the sides of the V.
So all three drivers are side firing, two are firing out toward the side walls and one is firing in towards the center of the speakers (the two inside firing drivers are firing towards each other)?
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Yes. But keep in mind that these are playing in an omni radiation pattern in those low ranges. So there really isn't a firing direction, just a facing direction.
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Yes. But keep in mind that these are playing in an omni radiation pattern in those low ranges. So there really isn't a firing direction, just a facing direction.
Thanks.
How would you compare the expected performance of these vs two 12" drivers in you OB sub W frame with 1" or 1 1/2" thick framing with the Wedgies?
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Yes. But keep in mind that these are playing in an omni radiation pattern in those low ranges. So there really isn't a firing direction, just a facing direction.
Danny, would having these cross fairly high (clase to 200Hz) to match the Wedgies not somewhat reduce the omni directional aspect of the side firing drivers ?
Mike, if yo do go with the 12's, go 1.5" . I am surprised at how much force these drivers put on even an OB frame, they still really load the cabinet
-jay
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Danny, would having these cross fairly high (clase to 200Hz) to match the Wedgies not somewhat reduce the omni directional aspect of the side firing drivers ?
Mike, if yo do go with the 12's, go 1.5" . I am surprised at how much force these drivers put on even an OB frame, they still really load the cabinet
-jay
Good to know, thanks Jay. I'm leaning towards the 12's if beefing up the frame will overcome the W frame's shortcomings. While on the surface it looks like three 8's would be the same as two 12's, if I have done the math correctly, two 12's have ~ 50% more surface area than three 8's which I would think would result in improved performance.
Mike
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I wonder how hard it would be to lay out/cut dado's for a W frame .... If youlaid it out with a jig and used a router it might not be too difficult... :scratch:
I'd think the dado's would help .
Also, double up the top & bottom panels like I did
My math comes out the same, rughly 226 "2 vs 150"2. I thought about going with 8's as well but after talking with Danny and looking at the cost difference, decided I might as well go with the 12's. I believe Danny now has the FR 08's in stock now so you could use those :thumb:
-jay
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Unless you have a design plan or need for narrow. Two 12s better than three 8 s hands down.
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No doubt about it. The 12's will play lower and hit hard in those lower ranges.
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No doubt about it. The 12's will play lower and hit hard in those lower ranges.
Will beefing up the W frame overcome the issues you mentioned earlier with this design?
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Will beefing up the W frame overcome the issues you mentioned earlier with this design?
Yep.
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That's it then. I'll be building my Wedgie bass sections with two 12's in a beefed up W frame. That way I'll be able to get the best bass and still end up with the Wedgie tweeter centered at 39" (ear height in my recliner).
I'll start in on these as soon as I finish the MTM and CS Encores I'm building as Christmas presents. The CS Encores are all veneered, inlaid and ready for finishing. I'm starting to apply the veneer on the MTM Encores today.
I can't wait. As great as the Wedgies are, using a single 8" non-servo driver in a ported box (-3dB @ 28Hz) for 200Hz and down leaves a lot to be desired. The Wedgies are pleading with me to give them the bass they deserve. I can't hold out much longer. The whining is really getting on my nerves :shake:
Mike
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Will beefing up the W frame overcome the issues you mentioned earlier with this design?
Double the side panels and connect the left and right sides with a brace (I used birch ply) running between them. As good as an H-frame.
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Double the side panels and connect the left and right sides with a brace (I used birch ply) running between them. As good as an H-frame.
That is true.
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Should the baffles be 1-1/2" thick also or just the sides, top and bottom?
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If your going 1-1/2" wide on the sides, maybe consider sand filled.
It was the best decision I made when building my Super V.
Gives a great place to conceal the wires as well.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=109158)
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If your going 1-1/2" wide on the sides, maybe consider sand filled.
It was the best decision I made when building my Super V.
Gives a great place to conceal the wires as well.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=109158)
That looks really good but boy does it look like a lot of work and heavy! I want something sound but something I can move both now and in the future.
I wondered how you got the curves on your speakers, now I know.
Mike
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Mike, there is a thread here on AudioCircle GR detailing Lundy's entire build of the "Jukebox" Super-V's. Genius!
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Mike, there is a thread here on AudioCircle GR detailing Lundy's entire build of the "Jukebox" Super-V's. Genius!
Thanks.
PDR's name is Lundy too?
MIke
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:lol:, nope......Perry
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Thought not. :D
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Double the side panels and connect the left and right sides with a brace (I used birch ply) running between them. As good as an H-frame.
A brace located where, exactly, and of what shape? Getting ready to assemble mine, so if I need to do this, now's the time.
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I haven't built a W frame but from looking at the plans here (http://www.gr-research.com/pdf/obsub.pdf) I'd say one behind the magnet of the lower woofer, one behind the magnet of the top woofer ( just make sure you leave enogh room to slip that lower woofer in). Doesn't really look like there would be enough room to put one in front of the top woofer but if there is, maybe one there too
I think I'd make them out of 3/4" dowel, maybe even 1" if there is enogh room
-jay
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It looks to me like where the baffles join in the middle would form the brace on one side which would mean you would only need to add one brace on the open side. Correct?
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It looks to me like where the baffles join in the middle would form the brace on one side which would mean you would only need to add one brace on the open side. Correct?
That'd be the 2nd one I mentioned above, which I too would think would be the most improtant as there is quite a span of unbraced panel there.. Just thought maybe one could be added behind that lower woofer and possibly one in front of the top woofer but I don't think that one would let you get the top driver in. Like you say Mike, where the baffle joins forms a brace anyway so anything extra on that side probably isn't necessary.
You'd get more contact using a piece of 3/4" MDF with a rectangular foot print (say 3/4 x 1.5/2 x 13) instead of a dowel like I suggested above, just thought maybe the dowel would be easier to keep out of the way. A bit of a tradeoff I guess
-jay
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Thanks.
PDR's name is Lundy too?
MIke
Oops, sorry Mike and Perry! As for the brace, I cut 3/4" ply in 1-1/2" wide strips and glued two pieces together. The now 1-1/2" by 1-1/2" block was then glued from the inside surface of one side panel to the same on the other, right in the middle of the length of the frame and right at the outside edge of the panels, where it is most needed (the furthest distance from any other supporting part of the frame) and does the most good. That's where Danny put a 3/4" (by what looks like 1-1/2" deep) brace in his Super-V prototype. You can make the brace wider (so that it goes further back into the frame), but keep in mind that you have to be able to get the driver past the brace, and the further back into the open cavity of the "W" the brace is, the closer the brace will be to the baffle you need to get the driver into the through-hole of. As long as the distance from the brace to the baffle is at least slightly greater than the depth of the driver, you'll be okay. Or, you can put in the brace after mounting the driver, securing it with screws only, no glue.
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Happy New Year Everyone!
It’s been about two weeks since I finished my own pair of Wedgies, and I just have to write in to say how thrilled I am with these loudspeakers! I’ve had the chance to hear some of Danny’s designs at RMAF over several years including the big Mockingbird Audio LSX line sources he showed a couple of years ago. I remember sitting in front of those very loudspeakers for maybe an hour going “I can’t believe how incredible this sounds”. When Danny mentioned here in the forum that the Wedgies might be a taste of that, it tripped my switch, and I placed my order. Based on what I’m hearing, these little guys seem to be way more than just a “taste” of what I heard that day at RMAF. Here’s my version in basic black:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=111694) (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=111696)
I currently have them blue-tacked onto the top of a pair of 25” sand-filled stands, and they are about 4 feet out from the front wall. I added another output on my preamp (hot-rodded DCB1) to accommodate the high-pass filter Danny suggests. At the moment though, I’m just feeding them a full range signal from the other output and being amazed at how those little LGKs can dig down into the lower registers.
I’ve never had a pair of open baffle anything, and these are the first loudspeakers I’ve ever built as well. I can’t believe how lucky I am to have stumbled onto this loudspeaker and the fabulous community of individuals who participate in this forum. Thanks to Danny for his incredible design, his patience on the phone and the photos of the crossovers that he posted. Also, special thanks to ebag4 and mlundy57 for all the build photos that helped show me how to clamp things up and how to wire everything together. You all have unknowingly helped to make my first GR build successful. Thank you!
I don’t own a subwoofer of any sort, and I’m looking forward to hearing what open baffle bass sounds like in combination with the Wedgies. To that end, I went on ahead and got six of the 8” SW-8-16FR servo woofers, two HX300 amps and a couple of sheets of No Rez in anticipation of Danny’s design for the low end. Hmm… that’ll be my 2nd GR build. I’m thinking 2015 is going to be a great year for music at my house!
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Great post bdp24 and congrats on your first build :thumb:
You are going to be in for another thrill when you get those subs done .
Hoping to get tohear one of the Wedgie designs soon myself
-jay
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How do they sound? They look real nice.
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Those look really nice, good job!
Yes, how do you think they sound?
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+1 Good job. And you're welcome. It's only fair. I read through a number of build threads before I built my first speakers. If it hadn't been for those threads I never would have attempted my first build.
Mike
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Great looking build bsnguy! :thumb:
Congratulations on your first build and your choice, the Wedgie is a special speaker. Nice move going with the servo subs, you are going to love the result. I haven't heard the 8"s, but the 12's are outstanding, I am sure 3 8"s per side will be as well.
You're welcome. Be sure to post pics of your bass project.
Best,
Ed
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Thanks for the kind words and encouragement gentlemen. As you all might imagine, being able to get all those beautifully machined parts from Ben makes it a lot easier for the novice! I remember seeing the pictures that he posted in this thread of the big CNC machine and all the Wedgie parts laying around and thinking, “Wow, these guys are serious!” Gluing together something like this is one thing, finishing it is, well, something that I now more fully appreciate as an artistic skill that takes lots of time and diligent practice.
I only have “half” of what I would consider a full Wedgie system sitting in my living room at the moment. I’m hesitant to describe the “sound” of these loudspeakers because I don’t have a subwoofer of any sort and I’ve only got about 50 or 60 hours of playing time on the drivers, the Sonicaps and their bypasses in the crossovers as well as the capacitors in the high-pass filter in the my preamp. Without the bottom octaves being accounted for, and the break-in of the capacitors still to be completed, I know I only have a part of the picture when it comes to what is really possible with this system.
That being said, I can say that, with the Wedgies, I finally have a clear sense of what “transparent” really means in terms of audio reproduction. Honestly, makes me feel like I’ve been listening through some sort of foggy haze for the last 15 years… Is that what a planar tweeter in a “wave guide” does for you?! I was listening today, and the attack and decay of a suspended cymbal just amazed me because it sounded so real. Depth of the soundstage is a huge upgrade for me but, most significantly, the totally unambiguous sense of a voice or an instrument being right “there” in front of me is what is keeping my jaw on the floor. Pretty amazing.
So, eventually, Danny will reveal to us a design that will fill in the lower octaves and keep up with the speed of the Wedgies. You can bet I’ll be all over that when it comes out! In the meantime, I have a question about how three woofers for each side might be wired to their respective plate amps. I’m guessing that the three woofers per side would be wired in parallel. If so, would the servo connections from the amp to those woofers also get wired in parallel or in some other configuration? Just curious.
Regards,
Chuck
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Totally agree! And I have what I thought were pretty good speakers, X-statics, North Creek Rhythms, Lynn Olson Ariels, Decware HDT.
The Wedge is in a completely different league!
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So, eventually, Danny will reveal to us a design that will fill in the lower octaves and keep up with the speed of the Wedgies. You can bet I’ll be all over that when it comes out! In the meantime, I have a question about how three woofers for each side might be wired to their respective plate amps. I’m guessing that the three woofers per side would be wired in parallel. If so, would the servo connections from the amp to those woofers also get wired in parallel or in some other configuration? Just curious.
I'm working on it.
And the drive coils will all be wired in parallel while the sensing coils are wired in series.
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And the drive coils will all be wired in parallel while the sensing coils are wired in series.
Will throw this in too, the center , or rearward facing driver has both the driver and servo coil wired out of phase
-jay
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Will throw this in too, the center , or rearward facing driver has both the driver and servo coil wired out of phase
-jay
Yes, if they are on a H frame with one driver facing the other direction.
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Thanks Danny and Jay. Got it!
Chuck
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Welcome to the wonderful world of open-baffle speakers Chuck! A completely different sound than that produced by box speakers, isn't it? After hearing my first pair in 1972 there was no going back---I was spoiled. Even big, expensive box speakers sound like the music is being sprayed out of the enclosures, rather than the musical instruments just hanging there in space as they do with Open Baffle/Planar/etc. speakers. The only penalty is they absolutely require space between them and the wall behind them---the more the better.
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The only dipoles I've heard are the Martin Logans. Love them, can't afford the $10K pair that I really liked....:)
Anyways, seriously considering OB cone based speakers and GR is high on my list.
Hope it is OK to post a newbie query.
Is see two types of drivers on OB.
One is like these with multiple smaller drivers, sometimes in MTM format. Or others like the Linkwitz LXMini.
Another is with larger woofers such as Hawthorne (among many others) that goes 12" or 15" in driver size, some with coincident tweeters.
What are the pros and cons of each? With the smaller drivers, would this GR design give a better imaging depth, precision and possibly width? What does it give up to the larger drivers - slam perhaps? What about scale.
Hope it is OK to ask here. The cost of the speaker in this thread is definitely more economical than many of the other commercially finished OBs.
Thanks!
UL
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Hey UL,
We have designs some speakers using some big 12" coaxial drivers from P Audio.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=73341.0
The P Audio drivers were standouts. They were designed more like a high end audio driver and not just a music production driver. They had a high 97db sensitivity and were really fun to listen to. Dynamics are incredible. They score a 10 for fun factor.
The Wedgie is more accurate with a very smooth response curve. They are cleaner and offer a great level of detail. The narrow baffle design also offers better imaging. The tweeter is also physically aligned to the voice coil of the woofers so they are perfectly in phase front to back. You don't get that with anything else. And the sensitivity is a high 95db so there are good dynamics there as well.
I am anxious to get the base design finished up...
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Thanks Danny,
I'm looking forward to your complete package from these to the base. Do like excellent imaging and accuracy.
With some DIY kits, one can purchase CNC files such as the Frugelhorns. Do you sell CNC plans for these?
Thanks!
UL
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Thanks Danny,
I'm looking forward to your complete package from these to the base. Do like excellent imaging and accuracy.
With some DIY kits, one can purchase CNC files such as the Frugelhorns. Do you sell CNC plans for these?
Thanks!
UL
The CNC files are not for sale. They belong to Ben Daniels.
Only a small part of the cost of the kit goes towards the flat pack and that small portion pays Ben back for his programming time.
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Thanks for the clarification.
Finally took a break and read through most of this thread. Apparently it has excellent detail and expansive sound stage.
2 questions:
1. Are these a very neutral pair of speaker? Or does it shade more to the warm side? Or shade towards the more detailed/cool sie?
2. The soundstage is wide/tall, but is the imaging very precise in placement and depth?
Thanks,
UL
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Ultralight,
I have also been following this thread and waiting for the new 8" sub design to be finished. I have built and owned 6 different GR designs. Epiphany 20/21, LS-9, Super V, X-LS, X-Omni & X-Statik. All of Danny's designs in my opinion, lean to the warm side ever so slightly. Full rich midrange with excellent bloom and resolution.
the "Wedgie" bass and lower midrange will most likely depend on the (pending) sub woofer design, location in room and settings on the amps. The "Wedgie" rolls off at 200HZ so I don' think use as a stand alone monitor (without a proper sub) is an option for most users.
The 12" twin OB woofers in an H frame is the best option available to date but it is a "full size" design and may not fit into everyone's room décor ideals.
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Thanks NICKD,
Sounds great. I like my resolution and fast transients, but also a good warmth. They don't always seem to coexist. Will be driving with a 22 watt set. Waiting for the sub solution too. These may be my OB solution.
Thanks!
UL
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Hi AC. Is this tread dead??? I read it first time 3 days ago I have the V1 servo sub system and I can't find anything about the Wedgies on GR`s homesite, is the project dead?
Thanks
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Hi AC. Is this tread dead??? I read it first time 3 days ago I have the V1 servo sub system and I can't find anything about the Wedgies on GR`s homesite, is the project dead?
Thanks
Not dead.
I have held off on putting it online until I have completed the testing of the matching sub stand. I will have a more complete package soon.
The lower wedge will have three of the 8" servo subs with two facing out and one facing in.
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Hi AC. Is this tread dead??? I read it first time 3 days ago I have the V1 servo sub system and I can't find anything about the Wedgies on GR`s homesite, is the project dead?
Thanks
If you've already have the servo subs from the V1's, build yourself a couple H-frames then give Danny a call and order the Wedgie kit. They'll work great together.
-jay
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Thanks for information. Danny, is the coming Wegie sub section a H-baffel like V1 and Serenity Super-7? I'm tired to look at my 69.99inch high Serenity Super 7 copy with my ovn planner unit, therefore new top on the H-baffel. I love the subs.
How do I upload pictures here?
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here we go again....
would the wedgie work in a 5.1 or 5.2 setup? any plans to make a wedgie center channel? hmmm would these even work in a surround system?
anyone getting tired of my questions yet?
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here we go again....
would the wedgie work in a 5.1 or 5.2 setup? any plans to make a wedgie center channel? hmmm would these even work in a surround system?
anyone getting tired of my questions yet?
If you can get them out into the room then they'd be great as left and right mains. I have worked on a matching center for them at all yet. Just too much on my plate right now....
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Would these pair nicely with a pair of Rhythmik F12G subs, or would there be a gap between 120hz and 200hz?
I am really interested in these, but I'm constrained in my space. Its a small room, 10' x 12' with 8 1/2' ceilings - current speakers are just 18" from side wall and 12" from rear wall.
Can anyone offer setup/sub suggestions? Its strictly for 2-channel music listening.
Thank you.
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I'll leave it to Danny answer the sub question, but I can tell you they work great with the servo sub's in my 10.5'x12.5' room. My room is dedicated so no issue with the speakers being pulled out from the wall, about 4' in my case.
Best,
Ed
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Ed.....your making me buy a pair of these......my wife hates you....... :thumb:
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Ed.....your making me buy a pair of these......my wife hates you....... :thumb:
Hahaha, so does mine. :lol:
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Ed.....your making me buy a pair of these......my wife hates you....... :thumb:
And PDR, my wife hates you. I showed her your speakers to prove that the Super V's could be made to look really good and talk her into letting me design a pair for our house :lol:
Greg
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Some options:
1. There is no good reason to use the Wedgies near a back wall. They will not sound anywhere near as good this way.....but all speakers sound much worse against a rear wall (maybe the Wedgies more so?). However, if you have a temporary room situation then they will work OK for awhile there if you kill the rear wave of the open baffle mid and high frequency array by adding felt behind the drivers (an inch or so off the driver). I had the VMPS planar panel on an open baffle (running from 250hz on up) and the speaker was 7 feet out in the room.....but still I had too much highs...too bright. So, I put a couple layers of felt behind the driver and the speaker was then spectacular. One main advantage of open baffle is there is no compression from a sealed box....the drivers run free. So, the neo tweeter will still sound better near a wall with felt an inch behind it then with a enclosed back. Open baffle woofers (below 200hz) is another story.....you will definetly want them out in the room....they fire to the front and rear and if you have them to close to a rear wall...then lots of non linear things will happen.
2. You can use the Wedgies with a passive woofer system. No doubt the OB servo 8s and 12s are great (I use the 12s)....but not everyone wants to have amps all over the place. You can use a woofer system (one or two woofers) in a sealed or ported box and cross them over using a single coil (3-6mh depending on the impedance of the woofers). You have to match the sensitivity of the woofer to the Wedgies....relatively easy. One or two woofs to equal about 94db sensitivity. Hopefully Danny will come up with such a solution on his own as this would make more people interested. This way you can just use one amp and drive both the top and bottom. The wedgies will have some compression this way as they are not rolled off using a passive line level cap like Danny suggests.....but I think they would play close to 100db without much strain. You can use a single cap (around 150uf of stacked polys with bypass) to roll them off at 150 at 6 db per octave for super loud listening. I use a single Neo 10 on an open baffle with no low frequency roll off and I play high 90s without strain.
3. You can use the Wedgies with other biamped woofs besides the servo woofs. If you have a woofer you can use a Behringer or Crown amp with built in crossover to power the woofs. Less expensive than the servo system....but I am sure, not quite as good. One benefit of the Behringer amps is that it also has equalization so you can equalize the bass for flat response at your listening position.
4. You can make the speaker a boxed speaker (I would keep the wedge look for non parallel walls). Obviously, it won't sound as good but I think it will still sound better than any other of Danny's boxed speakers. Four super light drivers is more transparent than 2 heavier 5 or 6 inch drivers. You will need to have separate woofers (passive or active) to fill in from around 100hz on down. Just imagine his little baby LGK but with four drivers in parallel and then the time aligned Neo 3 tweet in between......the tweeter won't sound as good in a box but you could have a separate container inside the box for the tweet and then remove its back for better than normal sound. Danny has larger backs on the Neo 3 because they sound better than the tiny original ones..... but a large container for the back wave of the tweet would be even better....though still not as good as open baffle.
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And PDR, my wife hates you. I showed her your speakers to prove that the Super V's could be made to look really good and talk her into letting me design a pair for our house :lol:
Greg
Thanks Greg, I appreciate that.
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Would these pair nicely with a pair of Rhythmik F12G subs, or would there be a gap between 120hz and 200hz?
I am really interested in these, but I'm constrained in my space. Its a small room, 10' x 12' with 8 1/2' ceilings - current speakers are just 18" from side wall and 12" from rear wall.
Can anyone offer setup/sub suggestions? Its strictly for 2-channel music listening.
Thank you.
No, you really need one of our OB subs to play up that high.
These speakers are open baffle speakers an must be at least 3 feet or more out into the room.
There will be a matching sub for these shortly.
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Ric, I don't recommend some of those recommendations, but I'll have to come back to this later.
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Hi,
I have front ported N3's and followed this wedge design from beginning. Only problem is I cannot put them out more than an foot from back wall. Is it worth upgrading even if I loose some of the quality of wedges because of placement. I do really like the sound of N3 and would like to go further, but not quite sure if wedges will improve anything in my room and current position.
Thanks
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Hi,
I have front ported N3's and followed this wedge design from beginning. Only problem is I cannot put them out more than an foot from back wall. Is it worth upgrading even if I loose some of the quality of wedges because of placement. I do really like the sound of N3 and would like to go further, but not quite sure if wedges will improve anything in my room and current position.
Thanks
Your room placement really limits you. The Wedgies are not big speakers though. You can always pull them well out into the room and enjoy them. Then move them up close to the wall for casual listening or TV watching.
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Any update on the lower half to fill in the base for these speakers?
Thanks,
UL
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I have this pair of cabinets finished. I went with less depth and a lower gloss finish than I put on the N3's
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106759)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106760)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106761)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106762)
I should get them wired up in the next couple of days.
Mike
Those look spectacular. How did you apply the veneer around the round-overs without cracking it? This was raw veneer right, not paper backed? You mentioned needing to learn new techniques. Can you elaborate? A whole section on applying the veneer would be welcomed by me.
I have been away for 9 months, and just read this entire thread. I'm a bit confused on the recommended low end below 200 Hz. I saw many options mentioned, including 9 of the LGKs, or multiple 8" or 12" OB servos. Then there is the dual 8" servo "Best Stand ever" thread. So what is the status of a bass section for this speaker? I find the concept/implementation really good, but incomplete without the bass section. The frequency for the single break HP filter (to limit the power to the midrange drivers) is not specified. If you do use a 8" or 12" OB servo, where do you put the filter break frequency?
At any rate, this looks like a marvelous speaker design once its finished.
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Those look spectacular. How did you apply the veneer around the round-overs without cracking it? This was raw veneer right, not paper backed? You mentioned needing to learn new techniques. Can you elaborate? A whole section on applying the veneer would be welcomed by me.
I have been away for 9 months, and just read this entire thread. I'm a bit confused on the recommended low end below 200 Hz. I saw many options mentioned, including 9 of the LGKs, or multiple 8" or 12" OB servos. Then there is the dual 8" servo "Best Stand ever" thread. So what is the status of a bass section for this speaker? I find the concept/implementation really good, but incomplete without the bass section. The frequency for the single break HP filter (to limit the power to the midrange drivers) is not specified. If you do use a 8" or 12" OB servo, where do you put the filter break frequency?
At any rate, this looks like a marvelous speaker design once its finished.
rak313,
Thanks. You are correct, I used raw wood veneer that was about 5" wide. To get it to fold around the edges I sprayed the pieces with veneer softener, stacked the pieces between paper towels, put a wide board and weight on top and let them sit overnight. The next day they were fairly pliable. Then I put two coats of Heat Lock glue on each piece and on the cabinet. Since I used Heat Lock glue I used a cloths iron with a pillow case between it and the veneer to iron the veneer down.
None of the veneer was wide enough to wrap the front in one piece so I started in the center of the front and applied the first piece wrapping it around one edge then splicing a second piece going the other way and wrapping it around the other edge. I spritzed some more veneer softener on each piece just before I ironed them on.
The big lesson that I learned is not to use the iron on method if my veneer is not wide enough to completely cover the piece I'm veneering without splicing. This is because the heat from the iron causes the veneer to expand and no matter how hard I tried I could not consistently get good tight seams after the veneer cooled off.
From now on, I will only use the iron on method with paper backed veneer, which I can get in large enough sheets to cover the the cabinet in one piece. If I want to use raw wood veneer I will need to use the cold press method and limit it to straight edges since I can't figure out how to press more than one side at a time.
As for how I applied the veneer in general, the process was similar to what I described in my N3TL build thread http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=120896.40 . Scroll down to reply #47.
The difference with the Wedgies was that since I was working with narrow pieces of veneer, I had to apply one piece but have some wax paper under the edge so that it wouldn't glue all the way down. Then I would align the next piece slightly overlapping the first then iron down the middle of the second piece. Then I would clamp a straight edge over the seam and cut through both pieces of veneer. Next I would remove the scrap pieces and the wax paper, then iron down the seam. Then repeat the process until all the veneer is applied.
As for handling the frequencies below 200Hz, there are a lot of options. Since the Wedgies are open baffle, ultimately you want an open baffle solution for the lower frequencies so everything works together in the best way possible. There is more than one way to accomplish this. That is why you saw so many different methods discussed. Danny is working on something specific to match with the Wedgies.
Mike
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rak313,
Thanks. You are correct, I used raw wood veneer that was about 5" wide. To get it to fold around the edges I sprayed the pieces with veneer softener, stacked the pieces between paper towels, put a wide board and weight on top and let them sit overnight. The next day they were fairly pliable. Then I put two coats of Heat Lock glue on each piece and on the cabinet. Since I used Heat Lock glue I used a cloths iron with a pillow case between it and the veneer to iron the veneer down.
None of the veneer was wide enough to wrap the front in one piece so I started in the center of the front and applied the first piece wrapping it around one edge then splicing a second piece going the other way and wrapping it around the other edge. I spritzed some more veneer softener on each piece just before I ironed them on.
The big lesson that I learned is not to use the iron on method if my veneer is not wide enough to completely cover the piece I'm veneering without splicing. This is because the heat from the iron causes the veneer to expand and no matter how hard I tried I could not consistently get good tight seams after the veneer cooled off.
From now on, I will only use the iron on method with paper backed veneer, which I can get in large enough sheets to cover the the cabinet in one piece. If I want to use raw wood veneer I will need to use the cold press method and limit it to straight edges since I can't figure out how to press more than one side at a time.
As for how I applied the veneer in general, the process was similar to what I described in my N3TL build thread http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=120896.40 . Scroll down to reply #47.
The difference with the Wedgies was that since I was working with narrow pieces of veneer, I had to apply one piece but have some wax paper under the edge so that it wouldn't glue all the way down. Then I would align the next piece slightly overlapping the first then iron down the middle of the second piece. Then I would clamp a straight edge over the seam and cut through both pieces of veneer. Next I would remove the scrap pieces and the wax paper, then iron down the seam. Then repeat the process until all the veneer is applied.
As for handling the frequencies below 200Hz, there are a lot of options. Since the Wedgies are open baffle, ultimately you want an open baffle solution for the lower frequencies so everything works together in the best way possible. There is more than one way to accomplish this. That is why you saw so many different methods discussed. Danny is working on something specific to match with the Wedgies.
Mike
Thanks for that technique on veneering!
Regarding the below 200 Hz using either a 8" or 12" servo design, I would like to see specific recommendations regarding the wedgies. For example say what frequency to cross them over at. Are both the high pass of the wedgies and the bass servos set to the same crossover freq? What settings are used for the servo amp? Are they different for the A370PEQ vs the HX300-8OB.
I realize there are many options, but the reason I go for a kit that Danny has blessed is that if you follow what he has specified to the letter, you will get great performance. So what I'm wanting (expecting) is a definitive solution from Danny that specs everything. I take it that is coming, just not quite ready yet.
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Are these kits still available ?
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Are these kits still available ?
Not until I can get some more Neo 3 tweeters. Right now there are none available.
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Not until I can get some more Neo 3 tweeters. Right now there are none available.
I was afraid of that, and was hoping you had some stashed away for your kits. We will just have to hope it's not too long a wait.
Thanks for the responses to my posts.
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After multiple coats of primer and sanding I am ready to start my base coat, here you go:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106423)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106424)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106425)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106426)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=106427)
More later.
Ed,
When you painted your Wedgies, what did you use for the primer and the base coat? Also, how many coats of each did you use and how did you prep between coats?
Thanks,
Mike
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Hey Mike, I am the last guy to be answering painting questions, but I will tell you what I did.
With regard to the number of coats, I can't tell you, It was Jay that told me "to really work at getting the seams as perfect as you can even if it means filling/sanding a few times. The extra effort will pay off", so I kept sanding and priming until I felt confident the seams wouldn't show, this took quite a few steps and I can see I could have done a little more in various areas. So jay was right and I still could have done more :oops:.
I used scotchbrite pads between coats in areas where I wasn't sanding.
I used rustoleum primer and a two part duplicolor metalcast red.
The base coat went on easily over the primer, the issue I ran into was with how heavily to apply the red topcoat. I ending up applying it more heavily than I felt was correct, but in the end it came out ok. I used the scotchbrite between the top coats as well, but sparingly as I recall.
One other note, it may seem obvious but the more topcoats the darker it gets and loses some of the sheen, I would opt for fewer coats if doing it again.
Hope that helps!
Best,
Ed
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Cool color, which looks different in different pics, either a striking light blue or a pale green, both very 50's. Fender offers their guitars in a similar color. Lake Placid Blue, I believe they call it.
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Cool color, which looks different in different pics, either a striking light blue or a pale green, both very 50's. Fender offers their guitars in a similar color. Lake Placid Blue, I believe they call it.
It had a cool sheen to it, but it is the base coat for the translucent red topcoat.
Best,
Ed
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Mike,
As Ed said, work those seams until you can't stand it any more !! Even when you think they are perfect, hit them again as it really is amazing what shows through.
Some guys don't like doing this but when I'm pretty sure I've got them perfect, I roll a watered down mix of glue/wter (about 2 parts glue/1 part water) over the entire cabinet. Let it dry and then block that out . When you take the sheen of the glue off, if there is anything left to deal with , it will stand out. The glue also gets absorbed a bit especially by the open "grain" cuts on the MDF.
After that, I hit it with primer (last time I used zimeser Bullseye 123 and test it with the paint I'm going to use). Last thing yo uneed is a reaction between paint and primer but so far I haven't had issues. My buddy who is a painter always recommends that I try a product made by Sherwin Williams http://www.sherwin-williams.com/homeowners/products/catalog/premium-wall-wood-primer/ but I haven't tried it yet. It used to actually be called something else , they recently changed the name. I believe Ron tried it once, he may be able to chime in n this.
I"ve found the Bulls Eye 1,2,3 sticks extremely well and is esay to sand very smooth. Hope some of hat is useful for you.
On another note, sounds like the triple 12's have finally made through the paint booth as an extra, hoping to have them back here tomorrow. Can let you know how the base coat/clear coat tunred out, it was the water based automotive finish
jay
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Ed,
Thanks
Jay,
I am planning on using a wood carving gouge and cutting a shallow channel on the seams then using an epoxy fillet to stabilize the seams first before applying a primer. I have also used the Zinser Bullseye 1-2-3 and like it, plus it is the recommended base for the paint I am looking at using.
What kind of money are they charging you to paint the bases if I may ask? I checked an auto body shop today and they shot me a ball park of $1,200 for 2 Wedgies and 2 bass modules. That sounds steep to me. Not sure if I should check out a few more places or buy an HVLP spray system and do it myself.
I have been toying with the idea of an HVLP sprayer for varnish top coats for awhile now anyway and the system I'm looking at can spray primer and paint just as easily as a top coat. Plus I recently came across an inexpensive and simple way to set up a temporary spray booth. The lack of which has been a main reason I haven't pursued the HVLP system before.
Mike
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I have been cutting out the new wedge bases for these today. I'll be on them again tomorrow and will post some pics when I get them together.
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I have been cutting out the new wedge bases for these today. I'll be on them again tomorrow and will post some pics when I get them together.
Great!! Looking forward to it.
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I have been cutting out the new wedge bases for these today. I'll be on them again tomorrow and will post some pics when I get them together.
That's great Danny :thumb:, I'm very interested in this design for a small place I have
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Ed,
Thanks
Jay,
I am planning on using a wood carving gouge and cutting a shallow channel on the seams then using an epoxy fillet to stabilize the seams first before applying a primer. I have also used the Zinser Bullseye 1-2-3 and like it, plus it is the recommended base for the paint I am looking at using.
What kind of money are they charging you to paint the bases if I may ask? I checked an auto body shop today and they shot me a ball park of $1,200 for 2 Wedgies and 2 bass modules. That sounds steep to me. Not sure if I should check out a few more places or buy an HVLP spray system and do it myself.
I have been toying with the idea of an HVLP sprayer for varnish top coats for awhile now anyway and the system I'm looking at can spray primer and paint just as easily as a top coat. Plus I recently came across an inexpensive and simple way to set up a temporary spray booth. The lack of which has been a main reason I haven't pursued the HVLP system before.
Mike
My buddy the painter (sure wish he lived in town) loves his HVLP system, he uses it a lot, they can be pretty versitile but I guess have their limits like anything else .
As for the H-frames and pricing, we took them in bare, they didn't want me to prime them so it made it pretty difficult to prep, the thin coat of glue/water helps show things up. When the guys looked them over they felt they were fine. I told them if they found any issues after priming to call and we'd pick them up to take care of them but never had any calls. I believe they sparyed a couple coats of some primer / sealer they use then gave them a quick sanding before painting.
The bottoms were alreay done in bed liner so not much wrestling was involved. I believe they charged my buddy $400, maybe $500, I can find out for sure tomorrow after he picks them up but that's a good ball park.
Pretty anxious to see them and get them finished up , hopefully will have some pics tomorrow in the thread.
I've never tried the cut into the seam and rfill method but have read about it. Let us know how that goes, I'd be interested in trying it myself one of these days to
jay
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My buddy the painter (sure wish he lived in town) loves his HVLP system, he uses it a lot, they can be pretty versitile but I guess have their limits like anything else .
As for the H-frames and pricing, we took them in bare, they didn't want me to prime them so it made it pretty difficult to prep, the thin coat of glue/water helps show things up. When the guys looked them over they felt they were fine. I told them if they found any issues after priming to call and we'd pick them up to take care of them but never had any calls. I believe they sparyed a couple coats of some primer / sealer they use then gave them a quick sanding before painting.
The bottoms were alreay done in bed liner so not much wrestling was involved. I believe they charged my buddy $400, maybe $500, I can find out for sure tomorrow after he picks them up but that's a good ball park.
Pretty anxious to see them and get them finished up , hopefully will have some pics tomorrow in the thread.
I've never tried the cut into the seam and rfill method but have read about it. Let us know how that goes, I'd be interested in trying it myself one of these days to
jay
Jay,
Did you have them painted at an auto body shop or some other type of paint shop?
Mike
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Jay,
Did you have them painted at an auto body shop or some other type of paint shop?
Mike
Yes, it was an auto body facility.. Wasn't overly speedy, guess that's what happens when it's kind of an extra for them
jay
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Yes, it was an auto body facility.. Wasn't overly speedy, guess that's what happens when it's kind of an extra for them
jay
Jay,
Thanks
Mike
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Danny, I was wondering if you ever finished the design for the Wedgie with the 9 LGKs below? If so, is there any reason someone couldn't add the the 9 LGKs in a separate base for the Wedgie?
Thanks,
Ed
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Danny, I was wondering if you ever finished the design for the Wedgie with the 9 LGKs below? If so, is there any reason someone couldn't add the the 9 LGKs in a separate base for the Wedgie?
Thanks,
Ed
I have not completed that design. When the availability of the Neo tweeters went away I put the brakes on the whole project.
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I have not completed that design. When the availability of the Neo tweeters went away I put the brakes on the whole project.
Thanks Danny, I thought that might be the case but wanted to ask.
Best,
Ed
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Danny, still trying to figure the hi pass to the wedgie amp out, what is the -3dB frequency we are shooting for with the Wedgie? If you have told us before I can't seem to find it. From what I have read the -3dB should be 1/10th of where you want to cross, that would make the -3dB around 18 Hz, is this correct?
Thanks,
Ed
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Danny, still trying to figure the hi pass to the wedgie amp out, what is the -3dB frequency we are shooting for with the Wedgie? If you have told us before I can't seem to find it. From what I have read the -3dB should be 1/10th of where you want to cross, that would make the -3dB around 18 Hz, is this correct?
Thanks,
Ed
If you just use a single small cap value inline with your amp to roll off the first octave then that will help these little LGK drivers out a lot. Where they are going to be down and how much they are down in the first octave will barely even effect them at the crossover point. I'd shoot for something 6db down or more at 20Hz. And even if you are -6db down at 40Hz and higher you are still in pretty good shape. They will cross to the lower drivers at around the 200Hz point.
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Thanks Danny, I thought that might be the case but wanted to ask.
Best,
Ed
Did I see somewhere that the Neo 3 tweeters were available again, or going to be sometime soon? If so, any plans to make this a kit?
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The BG Neo3 PDR will be available from Parts Express in July from the latest info.
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So...does that mean Danny/ GR Research will have them too or not?
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So...does that mean Danny/ GR Research will have them too or not?
I'm having some new custom variations made right now. Also working on a face plate that incorporates a wave guide.
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I'm having some new custom variations made right now. Also working on a face plate that incorporates a wave guide.
Good to hear
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Nice! Any chance of selling a complete kit that includes the pre-cut open baffles this time?
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Nice! Any chance of selling a complete kit that includes the pre-cut open baffles this time?
Kits with flat packs are in stock and shipping. See the information here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=141654.0
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Danny, will you be moving forward with the "Wedgie" floor stander with the 9 LGKs below the MMTMM now that the NEOs have become available again or do you think the NX Ottica makes that design unnecessary?
Best,
Ed
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Danny, will you be moving forward with the "Wedgie" floor stander with the 9 LGKs below the MMTMM now that the NEOs have become available again or do you think the NX Ottica makes that design unnecessary?
Best,
Ed
The driver cost pushes it up into a the same price range as the NX-Otica. And it also becomes a 4 piece speaker set. Performance wise I am not sure it would really offer any advantage either. Still I will consider it.
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Danny, would there be any performance increase using an external crossover sitting on the floor, or even mounted inside
the same box as the servo amp?
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Danny, would there be any performance increase using an external crossover sitting on the floor, or even mounted inside
the same box as the servo amp?
Well, the crossover for this speaker is external as there is no speaker box or cabinet that is is mounted in. And I wouldn't mount it in or to near the servo amp as it then might pick up electromagnetic interference from the AC power supply.
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And guys, these use a very simplistic crossover.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/crossoverpic1.jpg)
(http://gr-research.com/pics/crossoverpic2.jpg)
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Danny, what would be a good distance to separate x-over and sub amp? I have 15" now.
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Danny, what would be a good distance to separate x-over and sub amp? I have 15" now.
That should be fine.
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That is a different crossover than what my Wedge has. The reason I am asking is that I want to try foil inductors that are quite
a bit bigger than the standard Erse coils which already block some of the bottom driver.
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That is a different crossover than what my Wedge has. The reason I am asking is that I want to try foil inductors that are quite
a bit bigger than the standard Erse coils which already block some of the bottom driver.
Yeah, that is the crossover for the new NX-Otica.
I stock the foil inductors also. The same size foil inductor is actually a little smaller in diameter then the Erse XQ. So size limitations are not an issue.
Here is the Wedgie crossover.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/LGKcrossover1.jpg)
Even if the crossover is pushed up pretty close to the drivers it still shouldn't cause any blockage issue.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/full2.jpg)