Standmounts + Sub(s) or Three-way Speakers

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 746 times.

mresseguie

  • Volunteer
  • Posts: 2826
  • Beware manufacturer who treats people like crap.
Standmounts + Sub(s) or Three-way Speakers
« on: 7 May 2018, 02:26 pm »
Hello, everyone.

I'm curious what others think, so I'm opening this up for discussion. As far as I'm concerned there is no right or wrong answer. It's all a matter of personal preference.

Question:

Do you prefer to have two monitors paired to one or more subwoofers, or do you prefer to have a pair of multi-way speakers without subs? [Multi-way can be 2.5, 3-way, 4-way, etc.]

Again, there is no right or wrong here. I am aware there are single driver speakers. For this question I have deliberately left them out. We can tackle them in another thread, okay?

Let's see what folks think.

Michael 

Tyson

Re: Standmounts + Sub(s) or Three-way Speakers
« Reply #1 on: 7 May 2018, 02:47 pm »
From a timing standpoint it's better to have a 3 way (ie, all the sound waves launch from the same physical space at the same physical time).  But from a "getting the best sound from my amp" standpoint, it's best if your main amp doesn't have to deal with bass.  Also the parts involved for bass passive crossovers are the largest and most lossy in the system. So it's a conundrum ;)

My solution is to have active subs integrated into my main speakers.  Another option is to just use subs as stands for your speakers.  This gets you the advantages of active bass, along with the advantages of the bass & main speaker being in the same physical space.

Rusty Jefferson

Re: Standmounts + Sub(s) or Three-way Speakers
« Reply #2 on: 7 May 2018, 03:05 pm »
I like 2.5 way or 3 way plus subs. Even the best small woofers/mid woofers in stand mount speakers shouldn't be playing as low as most do. It would be a nice feature of a small speaker crossover to have a selectable high pass for relieving the small woofers at 150-200hz and transferring to a sub(s). Just adding sub(s) below a small 2 way is not ideal.

Tyson

Re: Standmounts + Sub(s) or Three-way Speakers
« Reply #3 on: 7 May 2018, 03:15 pm »
I like 2.5 way or 3 way plus subs. Even the best small woofers/mid woofers in stand mount speakers shouldn't be playing as low as most do. It would be a nice feature of a small speaker crossover to have a selectable high pass for relieving the small woofers at 150-200hz and transferring to a sub(s). Just adding sub(s) below a small 2 way is not ideal.

Agreed!  Although, if someone already has a small 2 way, they could put a line-level crossover between their preamp and amp that would cut the bass frequencies so the 2 way (and the amp) never saw any bass. 

mcgsxr

Re: Standmounts + Sub(s) or Three-way Speakers
« Reply #4 on: 7 May 2018, 03:59 pm »
I fall in the small speaker plus subs category.

I find it easier to get the best sound in every space I have ever owned.

I happen to DIY the whole thing too, but that's not the point.  My first good stereo was 2 ways plus sub, and I have done a version of that (sometimes single drivers plus subs) ever since.  I did experiment with bigger wider range 3 ways, but it did not work as well for my ears in my room.

In my current iteration I am using the subs as stands for my single driver mains, but I have not always done that.  There were times when the sub sounded better in a different spot than the mains.  I now essentially use 3 subs, so using 2 with the mains and a 3rd in another location does it well for HT and 2 channel for me.

Folsom

Re: Standmounts + Sub(s) or Three-way Speakers
« Reply #5 on: 7 May 2018, 08:18 pm »
I like speakers that play sufficiently low enough to give you the articulation of the bass being played. Whether they can drive those real deep bass lines to the slamming effect that some music makers intend, well I don't care too much. I can listen to Trent Moller's last resort on a decent pair of bookshelves and still get it, just not really loud.

But here's the kicker! While big SPL doesn't drive my experience, I'm 100% about using a Swarm setup for the immersion quality. I wouldn't try to make them produce slam or anything, I just want some of that real deep tone that can help take me to a new place while listening.

timind

Re: Standmounts + Sub(s) or Three-way Speakers
« Reply #6 on: 7 May 2018, 09:27 pm »
It depends on room size for me. My setup is currently is a small room where large speakers don't work for me, at least the ones I've tried. I found it difficult to get the cohesion from speakers with 3 or 4 drivers, especially when those drivers are spread over a 40+ inch baffle and I'm less than 8 feet away.
Now when I had a large room, give me BIG speakers baby.

Letitroll98

  • Facilitator
  • Posts: 3780
  • Too loud is just right
Re: Standmounts + Sub(s) or Three-way Speakers
« Reply #7 on: 8 May 2018, 11:28 am »
I use full range floorstanders with no sub, but they don't fit into Michael's categories.  With transmission line loading my two way speakers cover 35hz-20khz which is plenty enough deep bass for my small room.  Could I get deeper, more impact bass if I hooked up my subs, yes I think so.  But I just don't need it now in my present listening situation.

mresseguie

  • Volunteer
  • Posts: 2826
  • Beware manufacturer who treats people like crap.
Re: Standmounts + Sub(s) or Three-way Speakers
« Reply #8 on: 8 May 2018, 01:28 pm »
I use full range floorstanders with no sub, but they don't fit into Michael's categories.  With transmission line loading my two way speakers cover 35hz-20khz which is plenty enough deep bass for my small room.  Could I get deeper, more impact bass if I hooked up my subs, yes I think so.  But I just don't need it now in my present listening situation.

 :duh: I haven't seen transmission line speakers mentioned much lately and had forgotten about them when I asked my question. I'd like to listen to a couple this summer while I'm back in the States. Stereotypes Audio in Portland, OR usually has a couple on hand.

Thanks for mentioning them.

Michael

rollo

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 3838
  • Rollo Audio Where Home demo rules
Re: Standmounts + Sub(s) or Three-way Speakers
« Reply #9 on: 8 May 2018, 03:54 pm »
Using single driver speaker with built in subs in a med sized room. 102db efficient and down to 20HZ.


charles

G.Michael

Re: Standmounts + Sub(s) or Three-way Speakers
« Reply #10 on: 8 May 2018, 03:55 pm »
I'm biased toward monitor speakers + subs, but probably more because of convenience. 
--Easier to move around than hulkin' big floorstanders!
--With subwoofs, I can set the level controls to match the room acoustics.  Otherwise, I have the problem of overwhelming my small listening room with bass. 
On the other hand, I can't say that I've ever successfully matched a ported subwoofer to monitor speakers---have never gotten the acoustics right.

Carl V

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 489
Re: Standmounts + Sub(s) or Three-way Speakers
« Reply #11 on: 8 May 2018, 03:58 pm »
prefer three way or 2 1/2 way and two subs.
as has already been mentioned. and it depends
on your room & requirements

If you get a chance get a hold of this book or DVD
http://getbettersound.com/index.php.

Jim has had Years of experience setting up Rooms & systems.

G.Michael

Re: Standmounts + Sub(s) or Three-way Speakers
« Reply #12 on: 8 May 2018, 04:19 pm »
Charles, do you have a photo of those speakers?  That's some big efficiency and some big bandwidth!  :)

Quote
Using single driver speaker with built in subs in a med sized room. 102db efficient and down to 20HZ.

poseidonsvoice

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 3360
  • Science is not a democracy - Earl Geddes
    • 2 channel/7 channel setup
Re: Standmounts + Sub(s) or Three-way Speakers
« Reply #13 on: 8 May 2018, 04:29 pm »
Charles, do you have a photo of those speakers?  That's some big efficiency and some big bandwidth!  :)

Probably Rethm’s like the Saadhana, etc...

Best,
Anand.

Stercom

Re: Standmounts + Sub(s) or Three-way Speakers
« Reply #14 on: 8 May 2018, 07:27 pm »
From a timing standpoint it's better to have a 3 way (ie, all the sound waves launch from the same physical space at the same physical time).  But from a "getting the best sound from my amp" standpoint, it's best if your main amp doesn't have to deal with bass.  Also the parts involved for bass passive crossovers are the largest and most lossy in the system. So it's a conundrum ;)

My solution is to have active subs integrated into my main speakers.  Another option is to just use subs as stands for your speakers.  This gets you the advantages of active bass, along with the advantages of the bass & main speaker being in the same physical space.

I agree with Tyson. I use a pair of Rythmik F8s servos as stands for my Tekton monitors.  Plus by definition, the monitors are in their own cabinets free from the large magnets, back wave and vibration of bass drivers.

JLM

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 8484
  • The elephant normally IS the room
Re: Standmounts + Sub(s) or Three-way Speakers
« Reply #15 on: 8 May 2018, 11:40 pm »
Prefer the monitor/sub approach:

1.)  A monitor can be mounted at your preferred height;

2.)  I'm a fan of Duke LeJeune, Floyd Toole, et al and the distributed bass (multiple sub/swarm) concept;

3.)  Ideal locations for generating bass and mids/highs is rarely the same place;

4.)  Monitors are easier to ship/re-sell;

5.)  Full-range speakers can overload smaller rooms;

6.)  Monitors tend to require less wattage;

7.)  Active speakers are almost always monitors.

WGH

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2966
  • Artwork that Opens and Closes
    • WGH Woodworking
Re: Standmounts + Sub(s) or Three-way Speakers
« Reply #16 on: 9 May 2018, 01:10 am »
It would be a nice feature of a small speaker crossover to have a selectable high pass for relieving the small woofers at 150-200hz and transferring to a sub(s).

I would think 150 Hz would be too high for a sub, that would be more like a real big woofer.

I remember the first NHT satellite/sub combo, which was all the rage when first came out. My impression was there was a big hole in the low end between where the satellite rolled off and the sub kicked in, the salesman didn't hear it or pretended not to.
Jan 30, 1994 Stereophile review: NHT SuperZero loudspeaker & SW2 subwoofer

So what do you guys think? What is the upper frequency range of a true sub so it disappears? Then the monitors have to go down at least that low.

Rusty Jefferson

Re: Standmounts + Sub(s) or Three-way Speakers
« Reply #17 on: 9 May 2018, 03:14 am »
I would think 150 Hz would be too high for a sub, that would be more like a real big woofer.....
In this scenario it wouldn't necessarily be handed to a sub, but a woofer.  Remember I said I like 3 way plus sub. The issue with small stand mounts (2 ways) is no one makes a small woofer capable of low  bass (say 40hz) without distortion at low frequencies at high volume.  Plus the low bass derived from small speakers tends to include cabinet resonances. Neither is good. Small woofers shouldn't probably be playing below 150-200 hz. Pass it to a 10"-12" (or maybe multiple 6" drivers in series) , then subs below.

Tyson

Re: Standmounts + Sub(s) or Three-way Speakers
« Reply #18 on: 9 May 2018, 03:15 am »
I'm a fan of large 10 inch or 12 inch midrange drivers, they bring an effortless power and ease to music, especially the lower mids and upper bass.  They also connect much more easily to a subwoofer (ie, no hole in the frequency response).

Here's another controversial opinion of mine - there's no way a 6 inch driver should be trying to play any bass at all.  Bass should be the province of multiple 12 inch drivers, or larger! 

After hearing (and living with) systems that can sweep a lot of air effortlessly, it's really hard to go back to small drivers. 

Rusty Jefferson

Re: Standmounts + Sub(s) or Three-way Speakers
« Reply #19 on: 9 May 2018, 03:22 am »
@ Tyson, I think we're saying basically the same thing.