AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Home Theater and Video => Topic started by: who?me? on 7 Nov 2017, 12:17 am
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I’m at the point of wanting to integrate a proper sub into my 2 channel system.
Hey folks,
I understand that I can control the gain and frequency of the low end of the sub,via the sub.
But is there a way to do the inverse? Can I reduce the low end of the speakers to about 45 hz and use
the sub instead from about 44 hz and below?
If possible, how would that work? e.g., use an external crossover for the floor standers?
The problem is that there is too much output at around 30-50 Hz if I use both the speakers and the sub.
thanks!! Gary
Rig: (Bel Canto DAC–> PrimaLuna Dialogue HP tubed integrated–>
Dali Helicon 400 floor standers, Spatial M3 Triode Masters, and coming soon Dynaudio S3.4 Contours (thanks Joe)
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Step One: Find the natural "roll off" of your mains and "roll in" your sub at that frequency with as little overlap frequency as possible
Step Two: Place your sub so it is EXACTLY the same distance from your listening position as your mains
Yes, you can find and use a XO with High Pass and Low Pass Outputs if you want to adjust the Mains bass.
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Yes, you can find and use a XO with High Pass and Low Pass Outputs if you want to adjust the Mains bass.
Yeah, you can do that, but you're potentially creating other problems. High pass filters (F-Mods, for example) are generally cheaply made and adversely affect the sound. Many of us have successfully integrated subs while running our mains at full range. More important integration issues include room size, musical tastes, subwoofer placement, sub crossover settings, number of subs, and quality of the sub(s).
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thanks for the help. I am confused by all the options these days:
1 mono LFE vs Hi Level Inputs vs Low Level Inputs vs Summing L/R channels, etc
I am interested in this sub: the Zu Audio Undertone subwoofer http://www.zuaudio.com/subs/undertone.
It does say there is a Signal Processing Bypass, but I dont know how it works.
here is a pic of the backside, and connections options:
From Zu's website:
"Line-Level Input: yes, RCA (left and right summing)
Sub Line-Level Input: yes, RCA
Speaker-Level Input: yes, 5-way binding posts (L/R summing)
Tunability: yes, very
Signal Processing Bypass: yes, switched for those that want to integrate more elaborate signal processing but desire to take advantage of the excellent amplification of Undertone."
Also: from Zu website, "It is a down-firing subwoofer with active signal processing and built in amplification. It accepts line-level feeds (RCA left and right summing), sub feed (RCA) and speaker-level (five-way binding posts, left and right transformer isolated and summing)."
I couldn't find a better image online that this one:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=170958)
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A minidsp could also be used to achieve what you’re after.
I have done it with pro analog crossovers too.
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I've spent a lot of time integrating subs (too much!). There are lots of different ways to do it depending on what you're trying to achieve.
I have found that hi-passing my bookshelf speakers does give them an additional level of clarity so I have done it that way. But that does make things a bit more challenging.
One thing I can recommend is to use Room EQ Wizard to measure your speakers in-room response. Once you get the hang of REW the placement and integration of the sub becomes much more scientific, if not quite 100% repeatable.
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Step One: Find the natural "roll off" of your mains and "roll in" your sub at that frequency with as little overlap frequency as possible
Step Two: Place your sub so it is EXACTLY the same distance from your listening position as your mains
Yes, you can find and use a XO with High Pass and Low Pass Outputs if you want to adjust the Mains bass.
thx John, looks I need to do some research on external XOs. And after seeing everyone put their sub in the corner of the room my entire adult life, it makes perfect sense to place it same distance from speakers for timing.
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A minidsp could also be used to achieve what you’re after.
I have done it with pro analog crossovers too.
will check it out. I've heard mixed reviews of DSP engines. Any suggestions in particular brands? types?
thx
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I've spent a lot of time integrating subs (too much!). There are lots of different ways to do it depending on what you're trying to achieve.
I have found that hi-passing my bookshelf speakers does give them an additional level of clarity so I have done it that way. But that does make things a bit more challenging.
One thing I can recommend is to use Room EQ Wizard to measure your speakers in-room response. Once you get the hang of REW the placement and integration of the sub becomes much more scientific, if not quite 100% repeatable.
Thx. I'm assuming Room EQ Wizard is a type of DSP product?
Will investigate.
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https://www.minidsp.com/ (https://www.minidsp.com/) - I would start here and read about their solutions. Available in US and Canada, and highly regarded as simple devices that can do many different things.
I am presently still using a pro Xover in the analog domain, as that was the fast, cheap and locally available choice when looking earlier this year.
But I know that the minidsp offers a better solution for me long term.
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thx John, looks I need to do some research on external XOs. And after seeing everyone put their sub in the corner of the room my entire adult life, it makes perfect sense to place it same distance from speakers for timing.
The "corner loading" is often employed to take advantage of room boundary gains.
However, it causes Phase Coherence Issues when the focus is on two channel music.
Equidistant and time alignment of the subwoofer will reduce these phase issues BUT. . .the will be at the sacrifice of POWER.
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Thx. I'm assuming Room EQ Wizard is a type of DSP product?
It's measurement software that runs on Windows or Mac. The software is free but you'll need a calibrated mic to use it and those run around a hundred dollars.
There are other measurement "solutions" out there as well but I've been satisfied with it. This link REW (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4uSR3cUUSY) is an overview put together by Gik Acoustics.
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...the will be at the sacrifice of POWER.
In your opinion, what's the best way to mitigate this? More subs (stacked)? Bigger subs?
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who?me?
There are multiple free apps on either app store that you can use initially with your phone to get some idea where in the bass region your problem really is. Of course they are not as good as REW with a dedicated microphone but they will get you in the ballpark. In most rectangular shaped rooms it will fall in the 40-80 hz range but may actually be higher than your guesstimate. If you room is untreated and they are acceptable then much of your problem can be mitigated with corner bass traps before buying more gear. Adding only one sub to the room is not likely to help your situation where two might.
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In your opinion, what's the best way to mitigate this? More subs (stacked)? Bigger subs?
Yes, multiple subs in different positions (but still the exact distance as your mains) can help.
As well, with multiple subs the room interactions are "smoothed" due to the bass not interacting with the exact same room boundaries.
As a DEALER I have many subs, and they all fit some scenarios better than others.
One even has SmartPhone/Pad control with an onboard equalization. If you are limited to a single sub, and don't care to invest in more sophisticated and costly programs and mikes, it is helpful.
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Thx Arthur. Gearing up to read about REW, I noticed there is an article that says you can integrate REW with minidsp device. Any recommendations for a room EQ mic?
It's measurement software that runs on Windows or Mac. The software is free but you'll need a calibrated mic to use it and those run around a hundred dollars.
There are other measurement "solutions" out there as well but I've been satisfied with it. This link REW (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4uSR3cUUSY) is an overview put together by Gik Acoustics.
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john,
good point about loss of power with only one sub at equal distance to speakers.
however, the sub I am interested in, the Zu Undertone, is a beast and goes down to 14hz, and tight at low volumes.
Honestly, even integrating a ONE sub in my listening room is kind of pushing it in terms of space and energy build up. So instead of opting for 2 subs that will offer balance but will be less quality than the Zu, I am choosing one solid sub to place in the middle b.w my floorstanders.
The Zu sub "does it for me", and probably would do it for you too if you heard it, or its big bro the Submission. B/c you will SUBMIT to its bass. deep and powerful.
I WILL need to employ some acoustic treatments, and I've used Roomtunes in the past, so i have a supply of them to try out once I get the sub and placed in room .
The "corner loading" is often employed to take advantage of room boundary gains.
However, it causes Phase Coherence Issues when the focus is on two channel music.
Equidistant and time alignment of the subwoofer will reduce these phase issues BUT. . .the will be at the sacrifice of POWER.
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john,
good point about loss of power with only one sub at equal distance to speakers.
however, the sub I am interested in, the Zu Undertone, is a beast and goes down to 14hz, and tight at low volumes.
Honestly, even integrating a ONE sub in my listening room is kind of pushing it in terms of space and energy build up. So instead of opting for 2 subs that will offer balance but will be less quality than the Zu, I am choosing one solid sub to place in the middle b.w my floorstanders.
The Zu sub "does it for me", and probably would do it for you too if you heard it, or its big bro the Submission. B/c you will SUBMIT to its bass. deep and powerful.
I WILL need to employ some acoustic treatments, and I've used Roomtunes in the past, so i have a supply of them to try out once I get the sub and placed in room .
You are correct that the ZU seems to be a great sub, but Power and Depth will not overcome Physics. In fact, they are affected exactly the same as Less Powerful performers, but because their performance is greater, the challenges are too.
Subs have their own special place in the Audio World. and it is always filled with trade offs. It is rather easy to tame mid and high room reflections via treatments and equalization.
However the size and power of BASS frequencies present significant challenges, and the BIGGEST Challenge is getting well developed bass at your listening position (usually in the center of the room)
But, setting up and placing a sub, or subs is part of the challenge, and hopefully reward.
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Thx Jack. I recently downloaded an App called AudioTools. A friend from the audio club recommended it.
It is actually pretty sophisticated and offers more advanced analysis. It is modular, so you buy the initial App, then can pay more for apps with the App.
It was expensive as far as Apps go, $20, but I've only paid for 2-3 apps my whole life. I just needed something to get me going. And this is my passion, so $20 well spent.
My room is about 12 feet by 19 feet, and is "L" shaped. So that the side that is 12 feet actually extends to 25 feet into my bedroom from my listening room. Attached is a crappy home made drawing.
Note: the image is stuck sideways, so you have to turn your head to the right!! sorry
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=171581)
who?me?
There are multiple free apps on either app store that you can use initially with your phone to get some idea where in the bass region your problem really is. Of course they are not as good as REW with a dedicated microphone but they will get you in the ballpark. In most rectangular shaped rooms it will fall in the 40-80 hz range but may actually be higher than your guesstimate. If you room is untreated and they are acceptable then much of your problem can be mitigated with corner bass traps before buying more gear. Adding only one sub to the room is not likely to help your situation where two might.
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Thx Arthur. Gearing up to read about REW, I noticed there is an article that says you can integrate REW with minidsp device. Any recommendations for a room EQ mic?
I have tried both the recommended REW mics, the Umik and the UMM one. The Umik has lasted longer than UMM which just wasn't all that sturdy.
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Integration means flat FR and coherent phase. FR is easy, phase is harder.
The illusion of the dreaded "slow bass" is caused by phase errors of one sort or another, or all sorts. :)
The most common obstacle to phase coherence is that smaller main speakers most in need of subwoofer support usually have reflex ports with large phase errors. That makes blending with a sub problematic. You can stuff the ports to make them sealed, then phase integration is much easier, but then you need a sub that can play cleanly to higher frequencies than most inexpensive HT subs are capable of.
The Zu's look very capable for music. Seal up the ports of your main speakers and set the sub LP filter to 12dB/oct slope, set delay to 0, place subs same distance to your ears as the main woofers. A measurement system like OmniMic will help you adjust sub lowpass filter freq and sub volume level to achieve the best integration possible.
A sealed sub has 12dB/oct rolloff, which matches the slope of the natural bass boost provided by the room reflections, aka room gain, or cabin effect. Larger diameter sub cone has a lower rolloff, so it is possible to pick the right sub cone diameter to have the sub rolloff match the room gain and yield flat FR down to 20hz, or whatever bass response is desired, without electronic EQ. The room volume determines the frequency where the 12dB bass boost happens. So smaller rooms need a smaller sub, while bigger rooms need larger sub(s.) Few people actually want flat FR to 20Hz for music, so this balance is one of personal taste, music style, and knowing what kind of bass response you personally prefer.
Edit: Sorry, I just realized this is in the Home Theater Circle, not music. Phase integration is less important for theater effects than FR. Multiple subs like Casler recommends will flatten FR throughout the room and excellent dynamics, also important for HT. Good luck
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If your going to purchase measuring devices here is a very good guide.
http://www.hifizine.com/2011/06/bass-integration-guide-part-1/
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Hey, thank you!
"Edit: Sorry, I just realized this is in the Home Theater Circle, not music. Phase integration is less important for theater effects than FR. Multiple subs like Casler recommends will flatten FR throughout the room and excellent dynamics, also important for HT. Good luck"
Thats OK!! I am new to the forums here and THIS IS FOR A "STEREO" SYSTEM.
I am only trying to integrate a sub not just for good music, but to understand the process of working in a sub. In fact, I have piqued in my Audio-philiac disease, and am not only tube-rolling, but "speaker-rolling". Ridiculous.
(Currently rolling--Dali Helicon 400, Dynaudio Contour S3.4, & Spatial M3 Triode Masters)
My listening room is roughly 12' x 19', with my system on one of the short 12' ends.
In other words, 12' for 2 full sized floor standing speakers and a sub doesn't seem like a lot to work with. e.g. If each speaker is approx 1 foot wide, then for 2 speakers that is 2 feet taken off the 12'. So now i have 10' of space b/w speakers. Minus the footprint of the Zu sub, about 18 inches wide, that leaves me with 8.5' of space b/w these 3 speakers.
I guess I would probably leave 3 feet on each side of the stereo speakers to the outer walls. then put the Zu sub in the center b/w the floor standers, giving me 1.25 feet or 15 inches on each side of the sub. kind of tight.
Which makes me wonder, am i trying to fit a bigger sub than I should into this system?
One of the reasons I like this sub is b/c I thought that b/c it is so capable (eg down to 14hz), I assumed it would play well as low volumes. B/c I know if I turn it up too much, their would be too much sonic engird or cabin effect in my listening room .
RE: " The Zu's look very capable for music. Seal up the ports of your main speakers and set the sub LP filter to 12dB/oct slope, set delay to 0, place subs same distance to your ears as the main woofers. A measurement system like OmniMic will help you adjust sub lowpass filter freq and sub volume level to achieve the best integration possible."
Thx, will check out the OmniMic
"A sealed sub has 12dB/oct rolloff, which matches the slope of the natural bass boost provided by the room reflections, aka room gain, or cabin effect. Larger diameter sub cone has a lower rolloff, so it is possible to pick the right sub cone diameter to have the sub rolloff match the room gain and yield flat FR down to 20hz, or whatever bass response is desired, without electronic EQ."
yes, I want to avoid electronic EQ if I can.
Well, the big picture is that these are my plans for the next year:
"speaker-roll" the Spatials, Dyns and Dalis this winter and spring. Since my home is too hot in the summer to run tubes, I will tube-roll this winter mainly with the Dali's and Spatials, since the PrimaLuna can drive them well and there is a sub out.
But ultimately by next summer I want to be using the Dynaudio S3.4s and mostly a solid state amp system, in order to meet the increased power requirements of the Dynaudio Contours, as well as be much cooler than the hot tubes. I don't have AC in my rental .
(the Dynaudio Contour S3.4s need more raw power to really get the best out of them. With the PL, there is noticeable distortion. But this is understandable b/c the Dyn specs have already shown me that the SPL is 86db, 4 ohm. Versus the 92-3db SPL of the Dali's and Dyn's. of course the Dyn speaker reputation for loving high power amps"
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The Zu looks like a nice sub. 12" driver should be a good match for your room. Should approximate flat or slightly rolling off FR. Better to roll off than over drive the room.
12 feet width is not bad, especially with good room ratio like yours. Find where in the corners the speakers sound best according to stereo imaging (reflections from sidewalls) and bass modes. 3x5 ratio is always a good place to start, like tweeters are 2 feet from sidewalls, and 3.3 feet from front wall, or vice versa. Then you can slide you chair closer to change the stereo angle which affects the solidity of the center image, and again, the bass modes. It takes a while, and the OB speaker will behave differently fromthe box speakers, needing more distance away from the front wall.