[aaron smithski]

This thread is getting too long...steve

This is turning into a monster! It's been a fun read so far. 

I think it would be a great idea to edit the first page of this thread into a wiki containing links to all of the highlights already posted...kind of a "Cliff Notes" for people discovering it. I've seen it work very well for hot topics before in various audio forums. It (somewhat) reduces the clutter of people coming into the thread and asking the same questions over and over and provides a nice resource in general for people discovering the thread.

I believe you could even edit the original subject title to say "Class D Audio Amps" or something like that.

Of course, since you are the OP, only you can do the editing... 

[firedog]

So far this amp sounds great. I'm thinking of getting one for 250X2 or even 500x2 (8 ohms). However, since I can't audition them (I'm overseas), I'd like to hear some comparisons to existing power amps, especially other Class D.

If anyone can do this, it would be great. I saw one favorable comparison on the thread to The Wyred4Sound and the Bel Canto, and that was very encouraging, as both those items get favorable reviews in magazines.

It's clear the amps have power. Does anyone here have a tube amp (or even a SS) with very good micro dynamics they could compare it to? I'd like to hear how the Class D compares.

Thanks

[roymail]

firedog, on page 33 dewardh said, "The IRS2092 driver design, and the classDaudio copies of the reference board, were the first that really said to me “right stuff at the right price”.  They sound as good as the 3886 chip amps, without the power limitation.

My LM3886 gainclone has micro dynamics, resolution, spacial clarity as good as I've ever heard.  I'm not sure how one could squeeze more detail out of the recordings.  So if the ClassD Audio amps can do this with more power, then they must sound awesome.

I realize this is not a direct A/B comparison, but perhaps it will help in some way. 

[steve k]

Does anyone here have a tube amp (or even a SS) with very good micro dynamics they could compare it to?

If you go back to my initial post I compared my Class D amp to my VTL monoblocks.
steve

[mfsoa]

Compared one to  Digital Amp Co Cherry JR previously in the thread.

Night and day difference in favor of the Cherry. Not even close.

-Mike

[Mariusz]

Compared one to  Digital Amp Co Cherry JR previously in the thread.

Night and day difference in favor of the Cherry. Not even close.

-Mike

Ofcause that is your opinion Mike.
And keep in mind the price difference.
.... As well as full time job of spokeperson for Tommy. 

Best
Mariusz

[mfsoa]

Someone asked, so I gave honest feedback. Believe me, I'm biting my lip here...

Thanks for understanding. - Just trying to help

-Mike

[Mariusz]

Someone asked, so I gave honest feedback. Believe me, I'm biting my lip here...

Thanks for understanding. - Just trying to help

-Mike

I have heard Tommy's amp and it is a fine product (wish I had extra  $$$ to blow).  The only problem -  20 : 1 price ratio.
If you like to explain the differences between these two in some constructive way, please do.  (day & night conclusion is not really helpful)


Regards
Mariusz

[mfsoa]

I'm respectfull bowing out of this one.

Hope to see you at a Rave soon, Mariusz 

-Mike

[jtwrace]

I'm respectfull bowing out of this one.

Hope to see you at a Rave soon, Mariusz 

-Mike

 

[wushuliu]

The limited experience I've had w/ Class D (referring to amp type here) amps like the Tripath TK2050 and classdaudioamps and research on others, they are extremely responsive and you get out what you put in. I would assume the Cherry amps have much higher quality components and taking the designers experience at face value, a proprietary design that may get the most out of parts used. As an internet direct product I would imagine the Cherry would retail for much, more with a more established company.

So given all that the Cherry *should* sound better.

But I'm not going to spend another $1750 to find out!

[firedog]

If you go back to my initial post I compared my Class D amp to my VTL monoblocks.
steve

Thanks for that. I didn't remember the original post (this is a long thread now) and to be honest, didn't know enough about the VTLs to totally appreciate your comment.

I went back and found some reviews of the VTLs, where they were praised as being extremely good.  So if the Class D is better, it must really be good. And if the Cherry is that much better than the ClassD, then it must be close to state of the art. But then, my interest in this  thread is mainly due to a desire to find value in audiophile level components, and avoid spending $2-$5K to get something really good. I don't have to worry about the WAF, and so can avoid spending money on the appearance of an amp.

Anthony Michaelson of Musical Fidelity claims that the inspiration for his "V" series of inexpensive components is the fact (acc'd to him) that up to 70% of the ultimate retail price of hi-end components is due to the cost of the cosmetics, and not the functional guts, of the units. Even if he is exaggerating a bit, that would still put the Class D amps easily at the level of components costing $1-$2K or more, especially when the saving of the labor costs for assembly is added in.

[jtwrace]

up to 70% of the retail price of hi-end components is due to the cost of the cosmetics, and not the functional guts, of the units.

That's true!

[Niteshade]

That's TRUE- BUT...people do not care.

Eye candy counts as much as or MORE than sonic performance. People just won't admit it. People buy according to appearance first.

That's true!

[firedog]

Blair-

I don't deny it. On some items it is important to me, too. But not with this one. BTW, if your version of the classD had a fancy brushed aluminum case and fancy knobs/switches, it would probably cost $2K in a high-end store, and not half that online.

The other economic analysis of consumer electronics I've read is that typically there is a 7-8:1 ratio between retail price and manufacturer's cost.

This is due to 100% markups along the distribution/retail chain, and financing costs manufacturers and distributors bear in order to get retailers to hold inventory.

Again, I'm not saying that's illegitimate. It just explains why the classD could sound as good as typical hi-end amps costing 10 times or more than it does.

[jtwrace]

The other economic analysis of consumer electronics I've read is that typically there is a 7-8:1 ratio between retail price and manufacturer's cost.

This is due to 100% markups along the distribution/retail chain, and financing costs manufacturers and distributors bear in order to get retailers in order to hold inventory.

That's every product...

[dewardh]

up to 70% of the ultimate retail price of hi-end components is due to the cost of the cosmetics, and not the functional guts,

That's WAY conservative . . . even in DIYland it's way easy to spend as much on the enclosure and and connectors as on the actual electronics . . . people in this thread have reported doing just that.  Add in overhead, marketing, dealer markup and the designer feeding his kids amortized over a very limited volume of sales and a 10 to 1 (retail) markup over the cost of the electronics doesn't seem all that unreasonable.  Then of course they have to claim that it "sounds better" to justify the price of the product to their customers . . .

[jtwrace]

That's WAY conservative . . . even in DIYland it's way easy to spend as much on the enclosure and and connectors than on the actual electronics . . . people in this thread have reported doing just that.  Add in overhead, marketing, dealer markup and the designer feeding his kids amortized over a very limited volume of sales and a 10 to 1 (retail) markup over the cost of the electronics doesn't seem all that unreasonable.  Then of course they have to claim that it "sounds better" to justify the price of the product to their customers . . .

So, who wants to pony up the money to take a "Cherry" and I'll put it in my soon to be released case and see if it can be picked out? 

 

[srb]

up to 70% of the ultimate retail price of hi-end components is due to the cost of the cosmetics, and not the functional guts, of the units. Even if he is exaggerating a bit

I would certainly agree that high-end cosmetics inflate the cost of a component, but that is exaggerated.  Yes, people in this thread have spent as much on enclosure and connectors as the electronics, but that is because these DIY electronics are inexpensive without much margin.
 
A few years ago, I had 10 - 1U enclosures built at a local fabricator with heavy-duty powder-coated steel chassis, CNC black aluminum anodized 8mm front panel, holes punched and drilled, PEM threaded inserts and PCB standoffs, countersunk screw holes and silkscreened front and rear.
 
I paid ~$150 per enclosure, not including a few hundred dollars in setup charges.
 
So if you look at a boutique high-end amplifier that costs $7500, it could have $1000 of wholesale parts, and even if it had an over-machined enclosure like Pass Labs, that couldn't cost more than $500.  The rest is distributor markup, dealer markup and manufacturer profit + "high-end bluesky".
 
Steve

[jtwrace]

 and even if it had an over-machined enclosure like Pass Labs, that wouldn't cost more than $500.   
Steve

I tend to disagree.  Have you looked at my gallery?  If not, take a look at my sub that I made.  There is A LOT more then that in material (6061) cost.  If you were to then add my design, machine and assembly time, that's how you get REALLY expensive gear.  Of course, that's without the $50k per month TAS ads.